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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-13-2004, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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The way I see it

Why should we question why Jesus did this or did that? There are some things we are not going to be able to understand, thats just a fact. Also, I'd like to know what some of you think about being able to lose your salvation after you are saved. This is my opinion, when someone is saved and they do something wrong, they dont lose their salvation. God sees no greater sin than the other, murdering someone and tellin a lie to ur wife or a friend, He sees no certain one that is a bigger sin. The only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy, which I believe means that someone denies His very existence. Anyway, I dont see how some ppl believe that u can lose ur salvation, if thats true, that would have to mean that Jesus's blood was not strong enough to hold you. I was saved when i was 13 years old and I try my best to live more like Him everyday even though i do make mistakes, we all do, anyway I'd like to know if any of you agree or disagree with my statement about losing ur salvation, thank you and God bless"
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-13-2004, 10:39 PM
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Personally I think that it is possible to loose you salvation.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This verse implies that once your name is written there can be instances where if you do not overcome Jesus will have your name blotted out of the book of life. Hence, loose your salvation.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-13-2004, 11:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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How do you think you can lose it? that verse says He will not blot out anyones name, what do you mean by overcoming Jesus?

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-13-2004, 11:59 PM
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I think it can be lost, but by doing something drastic. Like believing for a good part of your life and then one day deciding that it is all fake and that you no longer believe.

If that happened and then you died, I don't think God would say," You know, you're lucky you believed and earned salvation when you were 13, because if you hadn''t...."

Does that make sense to you?
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 12:38 AM Thread Starter
 
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If someone was truly saved to begin with, i dont think they could turn like that. ya know?
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 01:50 PM
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How do you think you can lose it? that verse says He will not blot out anyones name, what do you mean by overcoming Jesus?
There should have been a comma between overcome and Jesus.
if you do not overcome, Jesus will

What does it mean to overcome? In 1 John 5:5 is says, Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

In order to be an overcomer of worldly ways you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So, like stated in Rev. 3:5, if you overcome then Jesus will not blot out your name from the Book of Life. This is a conditional statement, if you do this then this will happen. On the flipside we can then safely say that if you do not overcome the world, then Jesus will or can blot your name out of the Book of Life.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 04:13 PM
 
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Originally posted by MoonDog
There should have been a comma between overcome and Jesus.
if you do not overcome, Jesus will

What does it mean to overcome? In 1 John 5:5 is says, Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

In order to be an overcomer of worldly ways you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So, like stated in Rev. 3:5, if you overcome then Jesus will not blot out your name from the Book of Life. This is a conditional statement, if you do this then this will happen. On the flipside we can then safely say that if you do not overcome the world, then Jesus will or can blot your name out of the Book of Life.
Randy,

You cannot lose your salvation and I can spend an hour plus with many a scripture that say just that...hopefully you are open here to discussion as you usually are. We don't typically disagree, but there had to come a time.

The overcoming revelation speaks of is salvation, the white rainment is Christ's righteousness jsut as is described later on in the chapter verses 16-17 I believe. Do you have any other scripture to base your interpretation off of? Normally you do and that is why I ask...

Lee
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 06:13 PM
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Randy,

You cannot lose your salvation and I can spend an hour plus with many a scripture that say just that...hopefully you are open here to discussion as you usually are. We don't typically disagree, but there had to come a time.

The overcoming revelation speaks of is salvation, the white rainment is Christ's righteousness jsut as is described later on in the chapter verses 16-17 I believe. Do you have any other scripture to base your interpretation off of? Normally you do and that is why I ask...

Lee
You know me, I am always open minded enough to listen to others and what they have to say. I grew up Baptist, I was always taught "once saved always saved". As I grew in the Lord I began to see things that made me question that teaching. That is one reason why 15 years ago I decided to "re-dedicate" my life back to Christ. Growing up, I was under the impression that it didn't matter what I did, I was saved. The Baptist will say that if a person falls away and goes the way of the world then he was never saved to begin with. How arrogant is that? Who are we do decide who is saved and who is not? We do not know the hearts of men.

More verses, I am going to have to do some more looking but I have come across a couple;
Quote:
Heb 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Quote:
2 Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Do these not say that it is indeed possible for someone who was come to the knowledge of Christ to fall away?
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 08:39 AM
 
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Originally posted by MoonDog


Do these not say that it is indeed possible for someone who was come to the knowledge of Christ to fall away?

This is a time saver for me to copy and paste some, but it should help.


2 Peter 2:20

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

[For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world] This does not necessarily mean that they had been true Christians, and had fallen from grace. People may outwardly reform, and escape from the open corruptions which prevail around them, or which they had themselves practiced, and still have no true grace at heart.

[Through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesses Christ] Neither does THIS imply that they were true Christians, or that they had ever had any saving knowledge of the Redeemer. There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. They may profess religion, and may KNOW enough of religion to understand that it requires them to abandon their vicious habits, and still never be true Christians.

[They are again entangled therein and overcome] The word rendered "entangled," emplekoo (NT:1707) from which is derived our word "implicate," means to braid in, to interweave; then to involve in, to entangle. It means here that they become implicated in those vices like an animal that is entangled in a net.

[The latter end is worse with them than the beginning] This is usually the case. Apostates become worse than they were before their professed conversion. "Reformed" drunkards, if they go back to their "cups" again, become more abandoned than ever. Thus, it is with those who have been addicted to any habits of vice, and who profess to become religious, and then fall away. The "reasons" for this may be:

(1) that they are willing now to show to others that they are no longer under the restraints by which they had professedly bound themselves;

(2) that God gives them up to indulgence with fewer restraints than formerly; and

(3) their old companions in sin may be at special pains to court their society, and to lead them into temptation, in order to obtain a triumph over virtue and religion.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)


Hebrews 6:4

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[For it is impossible] It is needless to say that the passage here (Heb 6:4-6), has given occasion to much controversy, and that the opinions of commentators and of the Christian world are yet greatly divided in regard to its meaning. On the one hand, it is held that the passage is not intended to describe those who are true Christians, but only those who have been awakened and enlightened, and who then fall back; and on the other it is maintained that it refers to those who are true Christians, and who then apostatize. The contending parties have been Calvinists and Arminians; each party, in general, interpreting it according to the views which are held on the question about falling from grace. I shall endeavor, as well as I may be able, to state the true meaning of the passage by an examination of the words and phrases in detail, observing here, in general, that it seems to me that it refers to true Christians; that the object is to keep them from apostasy, and that it teaches that if they should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations.
(1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians.
(2) The connection demands such an interpretation. The apostle was addressing Christians. He was endeavoring to keep them from apostasy. The object was not to keep those who were awakened and enlightened from apostasy, but it was to preserve those who were already in the Church of Christ, from going back to perdition. The kind of exhortation appropriate to those who were awakened and convicted, but who were not truly converted, would be "to become converted;" not to warn them of the danger of "falling away." Besides, the apostle would not have said of such persons that they COULD NOT be converted and saved. But of sincere Christians it might be said with the utmost propriety, that they COULD NOT be renewed again and be saved if they should fall away-because they rejected the only plan of salvation after they had tried it, and renounced the only scheme of redemption after they had tasted its benefits. If that plan could not save them, what could? If they neglected that, by what other means could they be brought to God?
(3) This interpretation accords, as I suppose, with the exact meaning of the phrases which the apostle uses. An examination of those phrases will show that he refers to those who are sincere believers. The phrase "it is impossible" obviously and properly denotes absolute impossibility. It has been contended, by Storr and others, that it denotes only great difficulty. But the meaning which would at first strike all readers would be that "the thing could not be done;" that it was not merely very difficult, but absolutely impracticable. The word - adunaton (NT:102) - occurs only in the New Testament in the following places, in all which it denotes that the thing could not be done; Matt 19:26; Mark 10:27, "With men this is impossible;" that is, men could not save one who was rich, implying that the thing was wholly beyond human power. Luke 18:27, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" - referring to the same case; Acts 14:8, "A man of Lystra, impotent in his feet;" that is, who was wholly "unable" to walk; Rom 8:3, "For what the law could not do;" what was absolutely "impossible" for the Law to accomplish; that is, to save people; Heb 6:18, "In which it was impossible for God to lie;" Heb 10:4, "It is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sin;" and Heb 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please God;" in all of these instances denoting absolute impossibility.
These passages show that it is not merely a great difficulty to which the apostle refers, but that he meant to say that the thing was wholly impracticable; that it could not be done. And if this be the meaning, then it proves that if those referred to should fall away, they could never be renewed. Their case was hopeless, and they must perish: that is, if a true Christian should apostatize, or fall from grace, "he never could be renewed again," and could not be saved. Paul did not teach that he might fall away and be renewed again as often as he pleased. He had other views of the grace of God than this; and he meant to teach, that if a man should once cast off true religion, his case was hopeless, and he must perish; and by this solemn consideration-the only one that would be effectual in such a case-he meant to guard them against the danger of apostasy.
[For those who were once enlightened] The phrase "to be enlightened" is one that is often used in the Scriptures, and may be applied either to one whose understanding has been enlightened to discern his duty, though he is not converted (compare the note on John 1:9); or more commonly to one who is truly converted; see the note on Eph 1:18. It does not of necessity refer to true Christians, though it cannot be denied that it more obviously suggests the idea that the heart is truly changed, and that it is more commonly used in that sense; compare Ps 19:8. Light, in the Scriptures, is the emblem of knowledge, holiness, and happiness, and there is no impropriety here in understanding it in accordance with the more decisive phrases which follow, as referring to true Christians.
[And have tasted] To "taste" of a thing means, according to the usage in the Scriptures, to "experience," or to "understand" it. The expression is derived from the fact that the "taste" is one of the means by which we ascertain the nature or quality of an object; compare Matt 16:28; John 8:51; Heb 2:9. The proper idea here is, that they had "experienced" the heavenly gift, or had learned its nature.
[The heavenly gift] The gift from heaven, or which pertains to heaven; compare the note on John 4:10. The expression properly means some favor or gift which has descended from heaven, and may refer to any of the benefits which God has conferred on man in the work of redemption. It might include the plan of salvation; the forgiveness of sins; the enlightening, renewing, and sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit, or any one of the graces which that Spirit imparts. The use of the article, however - "the heavenly gift," limits it to something special, as being conferred directly from heaven, and the connection would seem to demand that we understand it of some "special" favor which could be conferred only on the children of God. It is an expression which "may" be applied to sincere Christians; it is at least doubtful whether it can with propriety be applied to any other.
[And were made partakers of the Holy Ghost] Partakers of the influences of the Holy Spirit-for it is only in this sense that we can partake of the Holy Spirit. We "partake" of food when we share it with others; we "partake" of pleasure when we enjoy it with others; we "partake" of spoils in war when they are divided between us and others. So we partake of the influences of the Holy Spirit when we share these influences conferred on his people. This is not language which can properly be applied to anyone but a true Christian; and though it is true that an unpardoned sinner may be enlightened and awakened by the Holy Spirit, yet the language used here is not such as would be likely to be employed to describe his state. It is too clearly expressive of those influences which renew and sanctify the soul. It is as elevated language as can be used to describe the joy of the Christian, and is undoubtedly used in that sense here. If it is not, it would be difficult to find any language which would properly express the condition of a renewed heart. Grotius, Bloomfield, and some others, understood this of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. But this is not necessary, and does not accord well with the general description here, which evidently pertains to the mass of those whom the apostle addressed.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)



Now, all I am saying is that you can grab a few (even several scriptures) and put together a doctrine, but you must always look at the entire context of the New Covenant. If you are saying that a person can lose their salvation, you are saying that Christ did not fully atone, that his blood/sacrifice was not totally pleasing to God, that salvation goes back to works and not grace, and so on. Remember, none can pluck us from the father's hand, the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption, Jesus became cursed for us, and we share in His righteousness, and so on. I hope this helps.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Now, all I am saying is that you can grab a few (even several scriptures) and put together a doctrine, but you must always look at the entire context of the New Covenant. If you are saying that a person can lose their salvation, you are saying that Christ did not fully atone, that his blood/sacrifice was not totally pleasing to God, that salvation goes back to works and not grace, and so on. Remember, none can pluck us from the father's hand, the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption, Jesus became cursed for us, and we share in His righteousness, and so on. I hope this helps.
I actually did read all of that.

There are several scriptures in favor and against a once saved doctrine. I understand what you are saying, but I am in no way saying that Christ's atonment was not pleasing to God, it was. The bible says for us to work out our salvation, and faith without works is dead. So yes, to a certain extent, we must work for our salvation and show our faith in Him. But at the same time it is not because we work that we are saved it is only by His grace that we are. We dont show love ans grace to our children because they are good but because they are ours and because we are God's He loves and shows us grace.

Mt. 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 09:30 AM
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Here is what never made sense to me. If we all agree that there is no sin in God's eyes geater than the next, a lie being no greater than murder, than what sin or amount of sin is it that eventually seperates us from God's love? Is not one sin enough to seperate us from God, how about two. Do we need to be born again a third and fourth time for every sin?


For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 09:42 AM
 
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Originally posted by MoonDog
I actually did read all of that.

There are several scriptures in favor and against a once saved doctrine. I understand what you are saying, but I am in no way saying that Christ's atonment was not pleasing to God, it was. The bible says for us to work out our salvation, and faith without works is dead. So yes, to a certain extent, we must work for our salvation and show our faith in Him. But at the same time it is not because we work that we are saved it is only by His grace that we are. We dont show love ans grace to our children because they are good but because they are ours and because we are God's He loves and shows us grace.

Mt. 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Faith without works is dead, but that means that there are dead Christians whose time at the judgement seat of Christ will be a time of sorrow leaving only a pile of ashes when the wood, hay and stubble are burnt up!

Working out our salvation with fear and trembling has to do with reverencing God and living a seperate or Holy life - not truyl working out our salvation.

Like I said you can find several scriptures to support this view, but I can find a hundred or more that clearly describe eternal security. To understand eternal security you must meditate on the blood atonement to see the BIG picture.


Rev 22:6-20

Verse 14. [Blessed are they that do his commandments] See the notes on Rev 1:3; 22:7.

[That they may have right] That they may be entitled to approach the tree of life; that this privilege may be granted to them. It is not a right in the sense that they have merited it, but in the sense that the privilege is conferred on them as one of the rewards of God, and that, in virtue of the divine arrangements, they will be entitled to this honor. So the word used here - exousia (NT:1849) - means in John 1:12, rendered "power." The reason why this right or privilege is conferred is not implied in the use of the word. In this case it is by grace, and all the right which they have to the tree of life is founded on the fact that God has been pleased graciously to confer it on them.

[To the tree of life] See the notes on Rev 22:2. They would not be forbidden to approach that tree as Adam was, but would be permitted always to partake of it, and would live forever.

[And may enter in through the gates into the city] The New Jerusalem, Rev 21:2. They would have free access there; they would be permitted to abide there forever.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)


Matt 19:16-17

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

This account is found also in Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-39.
Verse 16. [One came] This was a young man, Matt 19:20. He was a ruler (Luke); probably a ruler in a synagogue, or of the great council of the nation; a place to which he was chosen on account of his unblemished character and promising talents. He came running (Mark); evincing great earnestness and anxiety, He fell upon his knees (Mark); not to worship him, but to pay the customary repectful salutation; exhibiting the highest regard for Jesus as an extraordinary religious teacher.
[Good Master] The word "good" here means, doubtless, most excellent; referring not so much to the MORAL character of Jesus as to his character as a religious teacher. It was probably a title which the Jews were in the habit of applying to their religious teachers. The word "Master" here means teacher.
[What good thing shall I do?] He had attempted to keep all the commandments. He had been taught by his Jewish teachers that people were to be saved by doing something-that is, by their works; and he supposed that this was to be the way under every system of religion. He had lived externally a blameless life, but yet he was not at peace: he was anxious, and he came to ascertain what, in the view of Jesus, was to be done, that his righteousness might be complete. To "have eternal life" means to be saved. The happiness of heaven is called "life," in opposition to the pains of hell, called "death," or an eternal dying, Rev 2:2; 20:14. The one is real life, answering the purposes of living-living to the honor of God and in eternal happiness; the other is a failure of the great ends of existence-prolonged, eternal suffering, of which temporal death is but the feeble image.
Verse 17. [Why callest thou me good?] Why do you give to me a title that belongs only to God? You suppose me to be only a man, yet you give me an appellation that belongs only to God. It is improper to use titles in this manner. As you Jews use them they are unmeaning; and though the title may apply to me, yet, you did not intend to use it in the sense in which it is proper, as denoting infinite perfection or divinity; but you intended to use it as a complimentary or a flattering title, applied to me as if I were a mere man-a title which belongs only to God. The intentions, the habit of using mere titles, and applying as a compliment terms belonging only to God, is wrong. Christ did not intend here to disclaim divinity, or to say anything about his own character, but simply to reprove the intention and habit of the young man-a most severe reproof of a foolish habit of compliment and flattery, and seeking pompous titles.
[Keep the commandments] That is, do what God has commanded. He in the next verses informs him what he meant by the commandments. Jesus said this, doubtless, to try him, and to convince him that he had by no means kept the commandments, and that in supposing he had he was altogether deceived. The young man thought he had kept them, and was relying on them for salvation. It was of great importance, therefore, to convince him that he was, after all, a sinner. Christ did not mean to say that any man would be saved by the works of the law, for the Bible teaches plainly that such will not be the case, Rom 3:20,28; 4:6; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:9; 2 Tim 1:9. At the same time, however, it is true that if a man perfectly complied with the requirements of the law he would be saved, for there would be no reason why he should be condemned. Jesus, therefore, since he saw he was depending on his works, told him that if he would enter into life that is, into heaven-he must keep the commandments; if he was depending on them he must keep them perfectly, and if this was done he would be saved. The reasons why Christ gave him this direction were, probably:
1. because it was his duty to keep them.
2. because the young man depended on them, and he ought to understand what was required if he did-that they should be kept perfectly, or that they were not kept at all.
3. because he wanted to test him, to show him that he did not keep them, and thus to show him his need of a Saviour.
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)


In Christ,
Lee
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 09:43 AM
 
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Originally posted by Josh
Here is what never made sense to me. If we all agree that there is no sin in God's eyes geater than the next, a lie being no greater than murder, than what sin or amount of sin is it that eventually seperates us from God's love? Is not one sin enough to seperate us from God, how about two. Do we need to be born again a third and fourth time for every sin?


For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Well said Josh! I would be in BAAAAD trouble even if it were 10 sins
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Josh
Here is what never made sense to me. If we all agree that there is no sin in God's eyes geater than the next, a lie being no greater than murder, than what sin or amount of sin is it that eventually seperates us from God's love? Is not one sin enough to seperate us from God, how about two. Do we need to be born again a third and fourth time for every sin?


For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But there is one sin that is far above all the rest and unforgiveable. Blasphemy.

So what your saying is that I can become a christian and truly love God. But say something terrible happens and my whole family is brutally murdered. As a result I decide that there cannot really be a loving God that exists for something like this to happen and I turn my back on Him and blaspheme Him. I am still saved and going to heaven?

Hypothetical of course. Just throwing questions out there, I want to make sure I am right.

Last edited by MoonDog; 03-15-2004 at 09:52 AM.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 10:35 AM
 
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"The unforgivable sin"

This is clearly identified as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, not even Christ.

Matt 12:22-37
Mark 3:20-30
Luke 12:10

These passages of scripture all indicate that the comments were directed towards people (Pharisees) who knowingly persist in rejecting Christ as the messiah despite His miracles and the ministering power of the Holy Spirit. You must note historically that the Pharisees had knowledge of Christ's healing power and ability to cast out demons as they continually saw this occur. They rejected this as being the messiah, and attributed Christ's work to that of the devil.

Furthermore, let me point out that those who have committed this sin are not concerned about it! They have no regret! As Paul said in the book of Romans they not only continue in their sin but aprove of others who do so as well.

Remember, Peter denied Christ 3 times - yet Jesus welcomed him back with open arms!!!

Finally, the Bible clearly states that those that spend eternity in Hell do so because they reject the gospel knowingly, willingly, and continuously. John refers to this as the "Sin unto death"...

I think this unpardonable sin is rare today, and was more applicable in the time when Jesus was ministering upon the earth. I also do not believe a BELIEVER can commit this sin! I hope this clarifies biblically what the Bible says about the unforgivable sin.
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 10:46 AM
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It has been a while since I did a good study on this. I think I will have to do one again shortly. Lee, you have made some good points and got me thinking.
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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 11:28 AM Thread Starter
 
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thank you for all of ur replies, you guyz are awesome
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