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post #1 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:01 AM Thread Starter
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Controversial topic I guess: I don't mean to be pushy

Moondog, Lee, 281R-

The sinner's prayer that I saw you guys post up got me to thinking.

So the best way I know how, here goes:

Do you guys not feel that water baptism is also needed (as well as aking Jesus into your heart) for salvation?

In my opinion there is far too many evidences of Baptism going hand in hand with the conversion process for Christianity. I don't think you can have one without the other.

First you accept then you get baptized, as soon as possible.

I really can't see how it can be ommitted. And it's something that I have to hold firm to because it is too much ingrained into the whole repenting/salvation process.

Your thoughts?

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post #2 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:10 AM
 
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JC,

I will get back to you on this one when I have a few minutes to sit down and type. BUT, to wet your lips a bit...

Baptism is not a part of salvation, just as the Lord's Supper is not a part of salvation. Baptism I teach and preach is the 1st act of obedience towards God, but in no way does it save you.

1. There is an example to follow in the NT of being immersed in water - even Jesus was baptized (but he was not "saved" because of it).

2. It is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord.

3. It is symbolic of a cleansing - but not cleansing in itself. It is the blood of Jesus which cleanses not H2o.

4. It is representative to the church body that you have believed.

Nowhere in scripture does God make mention of the act or the water having any saving power. In order to be saved you believe and so on...

Oops...that was a couple of minutes and now I must run - more to come...

Lee
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post #3 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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Lee, in Christian Love I just can't see how you guys come to this conclusion.

And again it is plain to see that the disciples baptized people in order to convert them.

1.) No Jesus wasn't not "saved" because of it. Jesus didn't need to do anything to be saved. John knew this but, Jesus knew that it needed to be done anyway so he could start his mission. Lead by example. He came to show us the way.

2.) Yes, I agree. It is symbolic to the death, burial and resurrection.

3.) I agree partly, it is not a physical cleansing. It is a spiritual one.

1 Peter 3: 20-22 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.


Matt 28) The disciples were commanded to go forth and baptize.

Mk 16: 16 )....he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

John 3:5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 )After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing

John 4:1-2) Jesus and his disciples were baptizing.

Acts 2:38) Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I could go on.

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post #4 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:58 AM
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Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Here Jesus says that before He came John was baptizing with water, but now we are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
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Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
In this instance it says that who ever believes in Jesus will be saved and while Peter was talking they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. Only then after they were saved where they baptized in water.

I can find only one instance in the NT where a person was baptized with water first. The eunuch in Acts 8:36.

Although I dont believe that baptizim in water is a requirement for salvation I believe that we are to be like Jesus and do the things that Jesus did. Since He Himself was baptized in water I believe that we should also be baptized as an public outword showing of our commitment to Christ.
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post #5 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 10:23 AM
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I'll post more of this later when I have time, but I dont believe that you have to be baptized to be saved.
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post #6 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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I do not dispute the importance of how the Apostles and those who heard the Apostles word (after Jesus had ascended into heaven) were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

In the verses you gave as an example, notice how as soon as they recieved the holy sprit, which came after they heard the Apostles speak (which it always did), Peter was quickly looking for water to baptize them, to complete the act of salvation.

Speaking of the Enuch. Phillip must've told him about Jesus/Salvation and included the importance of water baptism for the guy to want to find salvation. He then spotted some water and said "hey, there's water"! Let's do this. Phillip first, said "not unless you believe" He said that he did, so Phillip baptized him and completed his salvation.

I really, honestly can't see how this isn't plain. The two go hand in hand for salvation. Complimentary

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post #7 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
John 3:5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
In regards to this verse, you have to look at the context of the scripture. Nicodemus comes to the Lord and asks Him how someone can be born again, how can he reenter his mothers womb. Jesus replies with the verse you quoted.

I believe what Jesus is explaining here is:

1) Our first birth when we are in the womb we are in a sack of water which is broken just before birth. This is our physical birth. (BORN OF WATER)

2) Our second birth when we become born again we are born of the Spirit. Before salvation we are spiritually dead, when Christ comes into our lives we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is our spiritual birth. (BORN OF THE SPIRIT)

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post #8 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by MoonDog
In regards to this verse, you have to look at the context of the scripture. Nicodemus comes to the Lord and asks Him how someone can be born again, how can he reenter his mothers womb. Jesus replies with the verse you quoted.

I believe what Jesus is explaining here is:

1) Our first birth when we are in the womb we are in a sack of water which is broken just before birth. This is our physical birth. (BORN OF WATER)

2) Our second birth when we become born again we are born of the Spirit. Before salvation we are spiritually dead, when Christ comes into our lives we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is our spiritual birth. (BORN OF THE SPIRIT)
That's right. Nicodemus ask how to be born "again". Then Jesus answers him. "you need to be born of water AND the spirit" then you can't enter the kingdom of heaven. Nic was confused on what Jesus meant by "born again" he thought Jesus was meaning a physical rebirth. Jesus clarified it by, explaining what he meant by "born again" He's not combining the natural birth and spiritual rebirth in that one passage. He's stating what it takes to be spiritually reborn.

That's why Jesus allowed himself to be Baptized
That's why He and the disciples, baptized people
That's why Peter looked for water to baptize the people who believed.
That's why Phillip included water in his breakdown of what the Enuch was reading.
That's why Peter says in (1 Peter 3:20-22 that baptism now saves you, not by a physical cleansing but, a spiritual one. Peter prefaced that quote by first explaining how Noah and his family was saved through water)

Read it brothers......it's plain as day.

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post #9 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
He's not combining the natural birth and spiritual rebirth in that one passage.
Oh, but I think He is. Nicodemus thought he had to be born physically twice, Jesus explains you need to be born physically and spiritually.

What about here where it plainly states that simply believing will save you?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Sure in the second passage they are baptized in water afterwards but when Paul and Silas is outright asked how one can be saved they simply state...believe. They didn't say believe and be baptized. Baptism in water was always done after conversion.

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post #10 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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In that same letter that he wrote to the Romans in ch.6: 3-4 Paul explains that through baptism we have been buried with Christ, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life"

As far as the convo between Nic and Jesus, we can go back and forth but, I say that I feel that it's logical to realize that Jesus was talking about the importance of water and the holy spirit to enter the kingdom. Especially in light of the relation of water to the examples He gave us for water baptism and what the Apostles did and preached.

Acts 16? Yes, soon after they were all baptized. Why? Because it completes the conversion process. Water is and always done after one hears, believes, confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Afterwards.........what happens? They're baptized.
So yeah, it is done after they believe, it is what completes the conversion process.

I'm through.
JC

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post #11 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 12:04 PM
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I dont dispute the importance of water baptism. And yes it is spoken about throughout the NT but I really dont see where it is a requirement for salvation. If a person is saved and they are able to be baptized with water then I believe that they should do it at their earliest convenience but if someone is unable for one reason or another I dont think it will make a difference.

Maybe someone else has something to add.

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post #12 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 12:05 PM
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I disagree JC, i don't think Baptism is necessary for salvation. i do think it is important in signifying your relationship and rebirth in Christ. but it doesn't keep you from having a relationship or rebirth with Christ and getting to Heaven.

lets say hypothetically that a persons prays the prayer of salvation and accepts Jesus into their heart on a wednesday. they plan to publicly announce this to a church body and get baptized on sunday, but are killed or die on friday. do they not get into heaven?

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post #13 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 12:18 PM
 
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JC - in all your posts here you are stating that it follows and therefore completes the salvation process, but nowhere in scripture does it say that. I totally agree that it is a command which is stated in the bible again and again. I totally agree that God wants people to be baptized and I think it is disobedient to refuse to be.

It is just like a wedding ring doesn't make me married, it is the commitment and relationship that do.

To follow your logic, if one repents and believes (which is all the work of the Holy Spirit) then one is not saved, right?

Following this logic through however you quickly become one contradicting the plan of redemption in that Christ did it all and there is nothing I can add to it. I can do nothing to be saved including baptism. I am asked dozens of times in the NT to believe, repent, ask, call upon....to be saved, not once am I asked to be baptized to be saved. Not once did Jesus say you must be baptized to be saved, but he said COME with the faith of a little child.

What happens if you are saved moments before death?

What happens if you are saved in the desert w/ no water?

What happens if you have an ugly disease and cannot make contact with water?

What you have is an old Church of Christ doctrine that takes a few "controversial" scriptures out of context to make a pet doctrine. None of the scriptures you have given say anything about baptism as a part of the plan of redemption. How can you read the book of Hebrews and see anything but Christ's work is complete if by faith I accept that finished work and apply it to my life.

I will leave you with this scripture...

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

If it required any "works" on our behalf the above scripture is a lie. How does grace fit into baptism? What kind of gift comes with attachments? If I do not agree with your doctrine of baptism, even though I have been baptized, I am going to hell?

In Christ - with Love!

Lee
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post #14 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 12:32 PM
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Good reading.

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/other.../baptism1.html

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post #15 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Let me clear this up first.

Church of Christ. I do not feel that you need to be in this Church to go to heaven, I don't feel the name is important, I don't care if you like music or not (it doesn't make a difference) So please don't think that.

What I do believe is water baptism.

You guys disagree. Then fine. I believe the facts are clearly laid out in scripture.

Lee, I'm not gonna break down your post because I promised myself when I started this thread that I wasn't gonna argue with my brother in Christ.

But, I'll end with this. I've shown you where, the Apostles were baptized, I've shown you where Jesus was baptized. I've shown you where Peter says what baptism is and what it does (You guys haven't even touched that scripture) You've seen it connected with the conversion process.

My logic is and has always been (I've made this plain and clear) that I feel baptism completes the process) You change the words to say that I feel that I need to add something to Jesus sacrifice. "I" am not adding a thing. God added it. Jesus added it. The Apostles preached it and practiced it.

You say the NT doesn't ask you to be baptized? I showed you that Peter asked you in 1 Peter. You were told when the people asked Peter in Acts 2:37, "what must they do to be saved" to which he replied "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

Asking me hypothetical questions about "what happens if you die before being baptized", prompts me to ask the same of you.

What if the person can't speak? Going by you guys' logic in Romans 10 one only needs to confess with their mouths. What if he can't confess?

My point is that you can't build an entire doctrine around a scenario. All of this is God's plan of salvation.

Annanais instructed Paul the same thing (Acts 22:16--And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. )

Brothers there's too much there to simply cast aside.

But, do as you wish.

In Christian Love also,
JC

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post #16 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
I've shown you where Peter says what baptism is and what it does (You guys haven't even touched that scripture)
My link that I posted answered this question.
Quote:
The Holy Spirit is quick to say that the baptism He is referring to is not washing away dirt - it is not water. He is referring to a baptism that is symbolic of a clean conscience before God. This is a strange thought to us and seems to be unimportant, but scripture says the type of conscience we have indicates our eternal destiny. False teachers have a "seared conscience (1 Tim. 4:2)." According to Acts 24:16; Titus 1:15; Heb. 9:9,14; 10:22; 13:18, the conscience represents either sinful or godly motives and desires. What saves us? 1 Timothy 1:19 indicates a bad conscience indicates an individual going to hell. So just as the ark saved Noah, a good conscience IS NOW SAVING you because of the resurrection of Jesus. Notice the capitalized letters. The Greek tense of "save" implies we are being saved now - it is not a future event. You see, the clean conscience is proof you are saved.
Paul sheds some light on this in Ephesians 5:26 That He might sanctify and cleanse us by the washing of water by the word. In John 1:1, we are told that Christ is the word. Christ's blood is the 'water' that truly cleanses us. (Rev 7:14 These are they which... have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.) This is the true washing of the water by the Word.

Also you must remember, even though the Apostles were all baptized it wasn't until Christ died and blood was shed that they became saved. It is only by the shedding of blood that our sins can be forgiven.

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post #17 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
My link that I posted answered this question.

Paul sheds some light on this in Ephesians 5:26 That He might sanctify and cleanse us by the washing of water by the word. In John 1:1, we are told that Christ is the word. Christ's blood is the 'water' that truly cleanses us. (Rev 7:14 These are they which... have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.) This is the true washing of the water by the Word.

Also you must remember, even though the Apostles were all baptized it wasn't until Christ died and blood was shed that they became saved. It is only by the shedding of blood that our sins can be forgiven.
that is what I was going to say, Ditto
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post #18 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog


Paul sheds some light on this in Ephesians 5:26 That He might sanctify and cleanse us by the washing of water by the word. In John 1:1, we are told that Christ is the word. Christ's blood is the 'water' that truly cleanses us. (Rev 7:14 These are they which... have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.) This is the true washing of the water by the Word.

uh-huh. And how do you think we are connected with His blood?

No. The water doesn't "clean" you. Like 1 Peter said. But what it does do is connect you with Christ's Death, Burial and Resurrection

Romans 6:3-5Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

OMGoodness! How is this not plain?

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post #19 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 02:42 PM
 
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Well JC, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I did not think you were an old time Church of Christ guy anyways and I did not guess that you held the other "beliefs". I like the debate and would like to keep it going if you are willing. We can be passionate about non-essential doctrines as long as it is discussion in love and it doesn't divide us as brothers in Christ.

If you want me to throw another kink into our discussion I shall. Because I believe the Bible clearly describes 3 baptisms, none of which is necessary to be saved, but most christians will partake that really chose to follow Christ.

1. baptism of water - outward sign of inward change
2. baptism of the Holy Spirit - one time indwelling, continually seek to be filled daily
3. baptism of fire - trials and tribulations to grow into Christlike character

JC - do you agree with a somewhat common Pentecostal arguement that you must be filled with the Holy Spirit and manifest a gift of the spirit in order to be saved? This is close to the idea you present...
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post #20 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 03:22 PM
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What? Disagreement to the wording of the bible?
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post #21 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-05-2004, 11:41 PM
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I didn't read any of the thread except the first post, but my religion doesn't believe in "being saved" and "accepting Jesus"

you have been saved ever since Jesus died and rose again. there is nothing YOU can do to save yourself (ie: accepting Jesus)

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post #22 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-06-2004, 07:22 AM
 
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Barbie,

What religion is this? Please explain a bit further about your beliefs. Thanks.

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post #23 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-07-2004, 06:48 PM
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What? Disagreement to the wording of the bible?
I believe the bible has many contradictions. I'm a Baptist. I believe that Baptism finishes the process in accepting Jesus as your Savior. Because you are Baptised in front of many people and you announce to the entire congregation that you do accept Jesus purely into your heart. Also it's proving to Him that you are commited to the relationship between you and Him.

Thats the way I see it.

But as long as time goes on, people will always have different views on this.

I don't believe in once saved always saved either, because if you're baptized it doesn't give you the right to go out and act total un-Christian and then believe that no matter what sins you commit you'll always be saved.
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post #24 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-07-2004, 07:06 PM
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I believe the bible has many contradictions.
So you believe the Bible contradicts itself? Or do you mean that people contradict with each other b/c of mis-understandings or different understandings of the Bible?
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post #25 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-07-2004, 07:10 PM
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So you believe the Bible contradicts itself? Or do you mean that people contradict with each other b/c of mis-understandings or different understandings of the Bible?
Both. I believe the King James version of the bible was written to conform to the beliefs of King James himself, therefore making it no where near the original text of the bible. And I also believe that we as people have been to a point misguided as to what exactly the bible means. the scripture can be interpreted in many different ways. In one line of scripture, you could read it one way and I could think it means something totally different.

Just my way of seeing things.
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post #26 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-07-2004, 07:18 PM
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I didn't read any of the thread except the first post, but my religion doesn't believe in "being saved" and "accepting Jesus"

you have been saved ever since Jesus died and rose again. there is nothing YOU can do to save yourself (ie: accepting Jesus)
And what religion would this be? Since the bible says otherwise, it cant be Christianity.

Several places in the NT it poses the question "What must I do to be saved?" Answer: Believe and confess. Sounds like we have to do something in order to be saved. It also says that faith without works is dead. Again, we must do something. The Bible says to work out your own salvation. ummm, theres that word work again.

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Originally posted by DT2
Both. I believe the King James version of the bible was written to conform to the beliefs of King James himself, therefore making it no where near the original text of the bible.
If the KJV is supposed to be King James' beliefs then why does the Bible that we have today read almost word for word with the Dead Sea Scrolls of the OT texts that were written well over 2,500 years ago?

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post #27 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-07-2004, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog

If the KJV is supposed to be King James' beliefs then why does the Bible that we have today read almost word for word with the Dead Sea Scrolls of the OT texts that were written well over 2,500 years ago?
I believe that there were some changes made that KJ wanted made. Just my opinion. I'm not going to get into an argument over this because everyone single person here believes something totally different.
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post #28 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-07-2004, 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by DT2
I believe that there were some changes made that KJ wanted made.
But I just told you that it reads the same now as it did 2,500 years ago. How did King James have anything to do with it? No argument here, you made an incorrect statement and I just thought I would clear it but I guess people believe whatever they want regardless if their right or wrong.

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post #29 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-07-2004, 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by MoonDog
But I just told you that it reads the same now as it did 2,500 years ago. How did King James have anything to do with it? No argument here, you made an incorrect statement and I just thought I would clear it but I guess people believe whatever they want regardless if their right or wrong.
its something I learned when i was younger, and something that I've grown up knowing. so like I said everyone has their own beliefs as to whos right and whos wrong... that will come with judgment.
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post #30 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-08-2004, 06:02 AM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Well JC, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I did not think you were an old time Church of Christ guy anyways and I did not guess that you held the other "beliefs". I like the debate and would like to keep it going if you are willing. We can be passionate about non-essential doctrines as long as it is discussion in love and it doesn't divide us as brothers in Christ.
I wouldn't limit my views to a "Church of Christ" doctrine. A part of me let go of the old "traditions" of the C.O.C. a long time ago. Mainly, because I know what I read. And alot of the doctirine that they preach in the C.O.C. just didn't vibe with scripture. And that's also how I feel about doctrine that doesn't teach water baptism as a part of the salvation process. I've had to let go alot of my old theology in order to stay true to the word of God and drop man's traditions of how man thinks is best to serve Him. Water baptism is not what I would consider a non-essential doctrine.

Quote:

If you want me to throw another kink into our discussion I shall. Because I believe the Bible clearly describes 3 baptisms, none of which is necessary to be saved, but most christians will partake that really chose to follow Christ.

1. baptism of water - outward sign of inward change
2. baptism of the Holy Spirit - one time indwelling, continually seek to be filled daily
3. baptism of fire - trials and tribulations to grow into Christlike character
I disagree with # 1


Quote:

JC - do you agree with a somewhat common Pentecostal arguement that you must be filled with the Holy Spirit and manifest a gift of the spirit in order to be saved? This is close to the idea you present...
No. I don't. How did I present this idea?

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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 11:36 AM
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I'm very happy to see this forum added to DFWSTANGS. This is an interesting discusion. Consider this from the book of Luke which includes the account of two criminals crucified with Jesus.

23:39 One of the criminals who was hanging there railed at him, saying, "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 23:40 But the other rebuked him, saying, "Don't you fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 23:41 And we rightly so, for we are getting what we deserve for what we did, but this man has done nothing wrong." 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Bible reference:
Jesus, remember me is a statement of faith from the cross, as Jesus saves another even while he himself is dying. This man's faith had shown itself when he rebuked the other thief. He hoped to be with Jesus sometime in the future in the kingdom.

My Thoughts:
Although I believe baptism is a very important part of discipleship I believe this scripture clearly shows that it is not essential to salvation. This criminal could come down from the cross and be baptised by water. He certainly expressed faith that Jesus was God which is the triggering event to salvation. Faith and the expression of faith is the essential element of salvation.

This is my two cents worth. An excellent Bible web site where I got this is Bible.org.
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Originally posted by mustvid
I'm very happy to see this forum added to DFWSTANGS. This is an interesting discusion. Consider this from the book of Luke which includes the account of two criminals crucified with Jesus.

23:39 One of the criminals who was hanging there railed at him, saying, "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 23:40 But the other rebuked him, saying, "Don't you fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 23:41 And we rightly so, for we are getting what we deserve for what we did, but this man has done nothing wrong." 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Bible reference:
Jesus, remember me is a statement of faith from the cross, as Jesus saves another even while he himself is dying. This man's faith had shown itself when he rebuked the other thief. He hoped to be with Jesus sometime in the future in the kingdom.

My Thoughts:
Although I believe baptism is a very important part of discipleship I believe this scripture clearly shows that it is not essential to salvation. This criminal could come down from the cross and be baptised by water. He certainly expressed faith that Jesus was God which is the triggering event to salvation. Faith and the expression of faith is the essential element of salvation.

This is my two cents worth. An excellent Bible web site where I got this is Bible.org.
I certainly agree with the fact that the triggering event to salvation is the expression of faith. Ending with the culminating event of baptism. Jesus had all power given to Him on Earth, If He chose to make an exception because of His eternal love then He has all sovereignty to do so. But we can't make up a seperate doctrine simply based off an exception that only God has the authority to make. The disciples preached baptism, and performed it, right after the triggering event of faith and believing. Therefore it HAS to be preached by us. When the people asked them (Acts 2:37) "What must we do to be saved" We need to give the same answer that Peter gave. Annanais told Paul to "be baptized and wash away his sins" Peter even told us in 1 Peter, what baptism symbolizes. Paul says it in Romans.

I just don't know what else to say about it.



It's there, in plain view.

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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
I certainly agree with the fact that the triggering event to salvation is the expression of faith. Ending with the culminating event of baptism. Jesus had all power given to Him on Earth, If He chose to make an exception because of His eternal love then He has all sovereignty to do so. But we can't make up a seperate doctrine simply based off an exception that only God has the authority to make. The disciples preached baptism, and performed it, right after the triggering event of faith and believing. Therefore it HAS to be preached by us. When the people asked them (Acts 2:37) "What must we do to be saved" We need to give the same answer that Peter gave. Annanais told Paul to "be baptized and wash away his sins" Peter even told us in 1 Peter, what baptism symbolizes. Paul says it in Romans.

I just don't know what else to say about it.



It's there, in plain view.
If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then why would He even think about making an exception for someone? And if He made and exception for one person then would He not be obligated to make an exception for all? Your logic is alittle confusing.

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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 12:28 PM
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I just want to say that I've really enjoyed this discussion. Over the years I've often heard this question posed, but without the discussion to reach an answer. I have not made a firm decision as to what I believe, but I lean more to " it is not needed for salvation". However, I do believe that Baptism is a great thing and that if you have the chance to do it, you should.
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If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then why would He even think about making an exception for someone? And if He made and exception for one person then would He not be obligated to make an exception for all? Your logic is alittle confusing.
The Bible gives us a complete view (what he wanted us to know) about Him. From front to back, beginning to end. Throughout the Bible, things changed. It gives us a complete view of the plan of God. The way He planned it from before the beginning. When God decided to change things, He did. He did it a number of times.

If we hold dogmatically to the text in Hebrews (that you referenced) then we would still be doing animal sacrifices.

The reason I feel this way is because of the numerous examples of baptism and the direct quotes to it being an essential part of the salvation process, that are shown to us in the Bible. I see where faith alone saved someone. I also see where faith and baptism completed the process. I actually see more of the latter in the NT. They have to be reconciled together as a whole not in part.

If baptism was such a non-essential part of the salvation process then why did they preach it? Why stop a chariot in the middle of the road? Why baptize in the middle of the night? Why does Peter tell us what the process is a representation of? Why did Phillip tell the enuch about it? Why did Paul include it to his letter to the Roman church? Why, why? why?

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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 06:02 PM
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I don't see this as Jesus making an exception. The more I read what you have written the more confused I get by your responses. Many good examples of salvation have been given yet you refuted them all. Are you saying that a person can't be saved without beng baptized? Baptism is a clear public expression of faith in Jesus. It is the next thing to happen after salvation leading to discipleship. However, I've never read any where in the Bible that indicated you are not saved unless Baptized. Faith is what the church builds upon the corner stone of Christ. I've been to many Evangelical churches and never heard this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you as well. Or, maybe we are saying the same thing but in a different way.
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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 06:12 PM
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Here is a link you might readhttp://www.bible.org/illus/b/b-11.htm
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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-09-2004, 08:47 PM
 
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
Water baptism is not what I would consider a non-essential doctrine.
What do you say to someone like me, who was baptized yet doesn't believe it was absolutely necessary - just important and something to obey? Did it complete my salvation without me knowing or believing it did so? Am I in danger, since I disagree with this doctrine? I am seriously wanting to know how you would respond to these questions...

Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
I disagree with # 1
Okay, my point was this: If you say baptism of water is necessary to "complete" the salvation (by grace) process, then why are the others not? They to are spoken of by Jesus and the apostles and there are "many" expamples of them as well.


Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
No. I don't. How did I present this idea?
What I was looking for here was your thoughts and insight into this being a similar "non-traditional" doctrine that many do adhere to just like your opinion on water baptism. You did not present the idea - it is similar to the one you presented. Your thoughts? If water baptism is necessary, why isn't the baptism of the spirit proven by seeing a gift operating in the believer? Again, this is spoken of much more so than water baptism in the NT.
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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 01:51 AM
 
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do not know if this will help, but it is my interpretation of The Bibile:
Baptism is an issue of Lordship and an essential component of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. it is also the symbol of commitment. it has the same value as circumsicion did in the O/T. it "inducts" you into the family and makes you a new creature in covenant with God. you also do not have to have full understanding of its meaning or value before doing it. just as circumsicion, it is done while you are a babe in Christ.
Romans 6:1-4 likens it to death and resurrection.
it does not give us "salvation" but is a part of it. it saves us from the judgement of God- 2 Peter 2:5/ 1Peter 3:20-21/ Act 2:38
it is part of the 2 sacraments of Christ (communion/baptism)

sacrament- something, commanded & to be obeyed in faith, obseved perpetually and grace is administerd.
it is a great part of salvation.

Hebrews 6:1-3
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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 02:01 AM
 
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In regards to this verse, you have to look at the context of the scripture. Nicodemus comes to the Lord and asks Him how someone can be born again, how can he reenter his mothers womb. Jesus replies with the verse you quoted.

I believe what Jesus is explaining here is:

1) Our first birth when we are in the womb we are in a sack of water which is broken just before birth. This is our physical birth. (BORN OF WATER)

2) Our second birth when we become born again we are born of the Spirit. Before salvation we are spiritually dead, when Christ comes into our lives we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is
our spiritual birth. (BORN OF THE SPIRIT)
Jesus was plainly talking about water baptism, it is redundant to think that Jesus was explainly, to a fairly educated man, than in order to be saved you have to be alive. aka- a human being that was first born. that implies that Nicodemus was thinking that those things that have not even been born are saved.also, when Christ comes into our lives we do not recive the Hoily Spirit, that is something that is recieved after we are saved and we must ask for it. Acts:2 shows that. if that was the case then the Desciples in the upper room were not saved until the Spirit fell
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post #41 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 02:09 AM
 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by four5.0snomore
[B]JC - in all your posts here you are stating that it follows and therefore completes the salvation process, but nowhere in scripture does it say that. I totally agree that it is a command which is stated in the bible again and again. I totally agree that God wants people to be baptized and I think it is disobedient to refuse to be.

It is just like a wedding ring doesn't make me married, it is the commitment and relationship that do.

To follow your logic, if one repents and believes (which is all the work of the Holy Spirit) then one is not saved, right?

Following this logic through however you quickly become one contradicting the plan of redemption in that Christ did it all and there is nothing I can add to it. I can do nothing to be saved including baptism. I am asked dozens of times in the NT to believe, repent, ask, call upon....to be saved, not once am I asked to be baptized to be saved. Not once did Jesus say you must be baptized to be saved, but he said COME with the faith of a little child.

What happens if you are saved moments before death?

What happens if you are saved in the desert w/ no water?

What happens if you have an ugly disease and cannot make contact with water?

What you have is an old Church of Christ doctrine that takes a few "controversial" scriptures out of context to make a pet doctrine. None of the scriptures you have given say anything about baptism as a part of the plan of redemption. How can you read the book of Hebrews and see anything but Christ's work is complete if by faith I accept that finished work and apply it to my life.

I will leave you with this scripture...

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

If it required any "works" on our behalf the above scripture is a lie. How does grace fit into baptism? What kind of gift comes with attachments? If I do not agree with your doctrine of baptism, even though I have been baptized, I am going to hell?

i am not trying to be rude with any of my responces, i hope that i do not seem that way, i just get excited about the Bible, but if what you are saying is true then why does Paul say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling daily. for your last par on works look at sacrament and what it means. but if i am not mistaken to repent is a work, is it not. we are required to repent in order to have salvation. the literal translation of repent means to turn away from and run. aka- those thing in our life that went against God's word, must not be a part of our life anymore. i do not beleive that by works your are saved, Jesus said that i am thre only good one, t/f no one else is so no matter what they do they are not good enough, but it does require effort on our part. you can not say some prayer, be baptized and live in continuos disobediance (intentionally) of God's law and expect that you will enter the Gates of Heaven.
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post #42 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 06:19 AM
 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnStang
Quote:
i am not trying to be rude with any of my responces, i hope that i do not seem that way, i just get excited about the Bible, but if what you are saying is true then why does Paul say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling daily. for your last par on works look at sacrament and what it means. but if i am not mistaken to repent is a work, is it not. we are required to repent in order to have salvation. the literal translation of repent means to turn away from and run. aka- those thing in our life that went against God's word, must not be a part of our life anymore. i do not beleive that by works your are saved, Jesus said that i am thre only good one, t/f no one else is so no matter what they do they are not good enough, but it does require effort on our part. you can not say some prayer, be baptized and live in continuos disobediance (intentionally) of God's law and expect that you will enter the Gates of Heaven.
JohnStang - you are not being rude .

I am glad you joined the discussion. "We" play no part in our salvation as it is God that calls us, God that draws us to Him, God that gives us the faith to believe, God that does the regenerating work, God that gives us the ability to repent. When scripture says, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" it is saying as 1 Cor. 12 says - "judge yourselves that ye be not judged" or paraphrasing "Remember the judgement seat of Christ". It is God's work by His grace we are saved. Sacraments as you say (word not in the Bible) are important and we should be obedient in baptism and taking the Lord's Supper, but neither of the 2 in any way "complete" our salvation. With your last sentence I agree, as long as you also believe in the eternal security of one who is "truly" saved.

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post #43 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
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I don't see this as Jesus making an exception. The more I read what you have written the more confused I get by your responses. Many good examples of salvation have been given yet you refuted them all. Are you saying that a person can't be saved without beng baptized? Baptism is a clear public expression of faith in Jesus. It is the next thing to happen after salvation leading to discipleship. However, I've never read any where in the Bible that indicated you are not saved unless Baptized. Faith is what the church builds upon the corner stone of Christ. I've been to many Evangelical churches and never heard this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you as well. Or, maybe we are saying the same thing but in a different way.
Okay, let me see if I can clear the confusion. You have shown me many good examples of salvation? Where? You've only shown me the theif on the cross. I didn't refute it as a invalid act of salvation. I said that Jesus hadn't brought in the New Covenant yet. All power was given to Him and He excercised it as He saw fit, in accordance with his righteous judgement, in order to save souls. I haven't seen other examples of salvation without baptism unless it was the OT or before The Christ was ressurected. All other examples of salvation included water baptism soon after (Acts 8:12, 36-39; 9:18; 10:47; 16:15) Soon after dude! Again i tell it to you. The Enuch knew nothing about what he was reading. Nothing at all. The bible doesn't say what Phillip told him, but soon after the Enuch wanted to be baptized. C'mon man! All the examples are right there.

Faith in Jesus Christ IS the corner stone of the Christian faith! And it is this faith that leads us to belief and then leads us to want to get baptized so that we may be buried with Him. (Romans 6:3-4)

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post #44 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by four5.0snomore
What do you say to someone like me, who was baptized yet doesn't believe it was absolutely necessary - just important and something to obey? Did it complete my salvation without me knowing or believing it did so? Am I in danger, since I disagree with this doctrine? I am seriously wanting to know how you would respond to these questions...
I would say to you and a person like you; to be baptized again. Just like Paul required some believers in Acts to be rebaptized, correctly. (Acts 19: 1-7)


Quote:

Okay, my point was this: If you say baptism of water is necessary to "complete" the salvation (by grace) process, then why are the others not? They to are spoken of by Jesus and the apostles and there are "many" expamples of them as well.
I'm sorry. I'm missing something here. "Others"????

Quote:

What I was looking for here was your thoughts and insight into this being a similar "non-traditional" doctrine that many do adhere to just like your opinion on water baptism. You did not present the idea - it is similar to the one you presented. Your thoughts? If water baptism is necessary, why isn't the baptism of the spirit proven by seeing a gift operating in the believer? Again, this is spoken of much more so than water baptism in the NT.
Moondog and I have had a similar conversation. My belief is that the spiritual gifts (healing, tongues, prophecy etc...) have ceased. (According to 1 Corinthians 13:8) The better way of showing the gifts is "Love" (1 Cor 12:31)

This is a really condensed explaination of the whole "gift" discussion. I figured I'd save the whole thing for the inevitable thread about it that will follow. LOL

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post #45 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 09:15 AM
 
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I would say to you and a person like you; to be baptized again. Just like Paul required some believers in Acts to be rebaptized, correctly. (Acts 19: 1-7)
And what would then become of me if I chose not to be rebaptized?


QUOTE]Originally posted by Monsoon X
I'm sorry. I'm missing something here. "Others"???? [/QUOTE]


As previously stated:

1. water baptism
2. baptism of the Spirit
3. fire baptism

Okay, my point was this: If you say baptism of water is necessary to "complete" the salvation (by grace) process, then why are the others not? They to are spoken of by Jesus and the apostles and there are "many" expamples of them as well.
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post #46 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-10-2004, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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And what would then become of me if I chose not to be rebaptized?
Ask God. Seriously though, study the examples and pray about it. Do what your heart of hearts moves you to do. Ya'll told me not to judge, so I won't.

Quote:


As previously stated:

1. water baptism
2. baptism of the Spirit
3. fire baptism

Okay, my point was this: If you say baptism of water is necessary to "complete" the salvation (by grace) process, then why are the others not? They to are spoken of by Jesus and the apostles and there are "many" expamples of them as well.
I believe they are all important. 1.) To connect us with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. To be washed with His blood 2.) To have the Holy Spirit reside in our lives is essential to a continuing walk with God. 3.) To help us grow and get off the "milk" of the word and onto the "meat" (Heb 5: 11-14)

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And i think i see what might be a stumbling block to you guys


I'm not saying that WE are helping God save us. WE aren't completing the salvation process. WE aren't helping God. God saves us because the Grace that we obtained through Jesus' sacrifice. Not WE.

Baptism isn't something that was added in to help bring in our salvation. It is what God expects us to do. It's apart of His design for Salvation.

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Colossians 2:4-12
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments F8 of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead
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post #49 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-11-2004, 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by DT2
I believe that there were some changes made that KJ wanted made. Just my opinion. I'm not going to get into an argument over this because everyone single person here believes something totally different.
Opinions are appreciated but corroboration of evidence is better suited in such a blanket statement.

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post #50 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-11-2004, 02:46 AM
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I think the key comes in understanding where baptism came from and what it meant. Obviously it was around before Jesus' ministry, because John was baptising when Jesus came into it. So why were people being baptised by John? Not for salvation; because they were still under the old covenant and never was it stated that baptisim was requisite for remission of sin. (eg. blood sacrifice and baptism.) They were getting baptised to show their following of John's doctrine, to say I am a follower of his teaching. Baptisim has not changed. It is still a sign of that followship or allegiance today. We are baptised to show that we believe what Jesus said, nothing more.

Rom 10:8-11 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Nowhere does this passage talk about baptism, but it definately tells you how to be saved.

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