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post #1 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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How long has this been here?

I just saw this forum. this is long overdue for this site. glad this is here.
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post #2 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 12:00 AM
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Re: How long has this been here?

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I just saw this forum. this is long overdue for this site. glad this is here.
it was hidden until recently, oh im sorry i meant, invite/ask for request only.
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post #3 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
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so you are saying that this forum was hidden because we weren't special. who choose who saw and who didn't? just like most christian always thinking they are better than somebody else because of what ever religion they have. I thought only god can judge man. (other than when man has broken the laws, per the bible man law is also god law)
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post #4 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 09:15 AM
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This forum has been here since 8/2002. It has been visible in the Top level listing ever since it was created, but was limited in access to prevent stupid people from coming in and disrupting the discussions with their blather.

It was widely advertised throughout the site via stickies in every forum for at least 2 or 3 months.

If you didn't see it then, then too bad. Stop bitching and whining about it.
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post #5 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cartman
so you are saying that this forum was hidden because we weren't special. who choose who saw and who didn't? just like most christian always thinking they are better than somebody else because of what ever religion they have. I thought only god can judge man. (other than when man has broken the laws, per the bible man law is also god law)
*shakes head and sighs*

First, you say that Christians try to "push" our views on you guys. So Chris PMed me and asked if we wanted a Theology Forum to keep the discussions off the Back Porch. I said yes, that'd be great. It was then advertised publicly. The forum was visible only to those who had an interest either for or against Theology and asked to access, so it wouldn't offend those who didn't want to see it. There are other invisible forums on this site also, Cartman.

Christians/Muslims/Atheists/Agnostics/Aplogetics/Wiccans have been posting in here ever since it was created. Just because you missed the train don't make it seem like we caused some type of deception or trickery.

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post #6 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
*shakes head and sighs*

First, you say that Christians try to "push" our views on you guys. So Chris PMed me and asked if we wanted a Theology Forum to keep the discussions off the Back Porch. I said yes, that'd be great. It was then advertised publicly. The forum was visible only to those who had an interest either for or against Theology and asked to access, so it wouldn't offend those who didn't want to see it. There are other invisible forums on this site also, Cartman.

Christians/Muslims/Atheists/Agnostics/Aplogetics/Wiccans have been posting in here ever since it was created. Just because you missed the train don't make it seem like we caused some type of deception or trickery.
don't get me wrong I like this forum, but I never saw the sticky and it might be that I may have not been a memeber at that time. but as far as pushing one's idea on others, the christians take top honors. hell they go tell a billion china men that they are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

I believe in god but i don't follow any one religion
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post #7 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by Cartman
don't get me wrong I like this forum, but I never saw the sticky and it might be that I may have not been a memeber at that time. but as far as pushing one's idea on others, the christians take top honors. hell they go tell a billion china men that they are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

I believe in god but i don't follow any one religion
One might say that America in general takes top honor of pushing of ideas on the world. We go and tell every one that they should be a democracy.

Are there Christians out there that are a little overzealous towards non-believers? Yes. Are there Christians that take completely wrong and twisted views of the Christian faith (GodHatesFags.com) and force it on others? Yes. But you can't judge an entire group on a few that go about it wrong. Not all Muslims are extremist like Al Queda.

And it would be completely fair to say that many non-believers force their views of disbelief on believers when they find out someone they know is a Christian and they are not. I've seen that happen nearly just as much.
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post #8 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by breadfan35
One might say that America in general takes top honor of pushing of ideas on the world. We go and tell every one that they should be a democracy.

Are there Christians out there that are a little overzealous towards non-believers? Yes. Are there Christians that take completely wrong and twisted views of the Christian faith (GodHatesFags.com) and force it on others? Yes. But you can't judge an entire group on a few that go about it wrong. Not all Muslims are extremist like Al Queda.

And it would be completely fair to say that many non-believers force their views of disbelief on believers when they find out someone they know is a Christian and they are not. I've seen that happen nearly just as much.
ok but america was based on the christian faith "In god we trust" ring a bell to you. so it is no wonder that america does what it does. though america does it for the money. but still it is wrong to tell someone that they are not going to heaven cause they are (insert other religion here). hell there are tribes in new zeland (sp?) that used to honor their dead by mummify their dead, but no christian came and said no you have to bury the dead. isn't funny how, since you brought it up, that americans are like those annoying people that go door to door preaching god to who ever will listen, or as america does go country to country to set up people we think will help our country economy.
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post #9 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cartman
don't get me wrong I like this forum, but I never saw the sticky and it might be that I may have not been a memeber at that time. but as far as pushing one's idea on others, the christians take top honors. hell they go tell a billion china men that they are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

I believe in god but i don't follow any one religion
I have a ton of answers for this but, I want to find out what you believe first. So you said you believe in a god or do you believe in God? It's obvious you believe in heaven and hell because of the offense that you obviously take at the thought of someone saying you are going to hell. The only religions that have a "heaven and hell" are Judaism, Christianity and Islam (I might be wrong but let me know what the others are) I'm enrolled in an Eastern Religion class at this very moment this semester and they do not seem to speak of going to heaven or escaping hell. So what is your Theology?

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post #10 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
I have a ton of answers for this but, I want to find out what you believe first. So you said you believe in a god or do you believe in God? It's obvious you believe in heaven and hell because of the offense that you obviously take at the thought of someone saying you are going to hell. The only religions that have a "heaven and hell" are Judaism, Christianity and Islam (I might be wrong but let me know what the others are) I'm enrolled in an Eastern Religion class at this very moment this semester and they do not seem to speak of going to heaven or escaping hell. So what is your Theology?
well, there is really no answer that I can give other than I believe there is a creator, but I don't think that "god" has impact on our daily lives. I have seen way too much to be convinced otherwise. I don't follow any religion mainly because most religions teach the exact same thing, they just word it differently. I think religion was a tool to control the lower class, and it still is. but from doing alot of "soul searching" I realize that either god put us here or aliens. I hope to you know who that the answer is the 1st.
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post #11 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 01:41 AM
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post #12 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by Cartman
well, there is really no answer that I can give other than I believe there is a creator, but I don't think that "god" has impact on our daily lives. I have seen way too much to be convinced otherwise. I don't follow any religion mainly because most religions teach the exact same thing, they just word it differently. I think religion was a tool to control the lower class, and it still is. but from doing alot of "soul searching" I realize that either god put us here or aliens. I hope to you know who that the answer is the 1st.

So do you believe in a god (Like Ra or Osiris, or Vishnu) or do you believe in the Judeo-Christian God (the Creator)?

And you think that religion is used to control the lower class? How is this happening today? How are we being controlled?

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post #13 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 07:48 AM
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don't get me wrong I like this forum, but I never saw the sticky and it might be that I may have not been a memeber at that time. but as far as pushing one's idea on others, the christians take top honors. hell they go tell a billion china men that they are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

I believe in god but i don't follow any one religion
Seems to me that you are the one pushing your ideas of what you think about Christians before we even asked you...
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post #14 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
So do you believe in a god (Like Ra or Osiris, or Vishnu) or do you believe in the Judeo-Christian God (the Creator)?

And you think that religion is used to control the lower class? How is this happening today? How are we being controlled?
I don't call god anything but god. I don't care what his/her/it name is or what religion, all I know to call him is god. I try to live a "good" life as most religion all teach. I know what is right and wrong, for the most part. I have alot of weakness to some things, just like anybody else.


And as for religion being a tool to control lower class people, just look around at any thing that might upset the lower class, and I promise you will see "men of the cloth" swarm in to "help" deal with what ever the problem may be. 9-11, the riots in L.A. the school shootings, etc.... they are used to keep people in line instead of doing what they feel needs to be done at that point and time. They are used to give false hope to poor, sick, and gullible(sp?) people of the world. The only religion where it seems most of the peopl are of upper middle class or higher, which I know isn't correct, seems to be the Jewish people.

And I don't know how to quote another post while posting, the answer to the last post about pushing my ideas of everybody, where do you see me push my ideas on you or anybody else. where do I tell you all of the joys of not following religion. Do I come and knock on your door and tell you my thoughts even if you don't care? Do I go around telling people who think different than me that they are wrong to believe in a god, idol, etc.. NO. I don't got to other countries and tell the people they are going to burn in hell if they don't believe what I do. I don't go to other countries and tell people that the way they did things for the last 200 yrs or so is evil and wrong and they will suffer for it when they die, no. SO please tell me where I pushed any of my ideas on you. I stated an opinion that is all.
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post #15 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 09:07 AM
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no. SO please tell me where I pushed any of my ideas on you. I stated an opinion that is all.
Stated your opinion exactly... Just like anybody else would. But did anybody ask you what you thought about Christians? no. So you pushed your idea/belief in this thread. Thats all Im stating, nothing more
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post #16 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by Cartman
I don't call god anything but god. I don't care what his/her/it name is or what religion, all I know to call him is god. I try to live a "good" life as most religion all teach. I know what is right and wrong, for the most part. I have alot of weakness to some things, just like anybody else.
So then it's obvious that you don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god. Okay, it's all good. Now I can go to the next question. So what does your god tell you? It's obvious you give in to the idea that there is a higher entity up in the house So how do you serve your god? How do you know what his will is? Most other religions at least have some written or accepted doctrine. What is yours?

Quote:

And as for religion being a tool to control lower class people, just look around at any thing that might upset the lower class, and I promise you will see "men of the cloth" swarm in to "help" deal with what ever the problem may be. 9-11, the riots in L.A. the school shootings, etc.... they are used to keep people in line instead of doing what they feel needs to be done at that point and time.
So sending out a message of Love during a time of chaos and killing is a way of controlling? Well yes, I guess you could say that. What would you rather have happen?

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They are used to give false hope to poor, sick, and gullible(sp?) people of the world.
I guess that's your opinion. I know some poor and sick people that would disagree. But, so be it. That's how you feel.

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The only religion where it seems most of the peopl are of upper middle class or higher, which I know isn't correct, seems to be the Jewish people.
You haven't read up on Israel, have you?

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post #17 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 04:48 PM
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You know, I really dont care for "religion" either. I am not a "religious" person. In fact "religious" people have a tendency to have issues and steer people away from God. With me it is all about me and my "relationship" with God. There are many religions in the world where you can learn about god/gods/deities. But there is only one way to have a true relationship with THE GOD and that is only through Christ.
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post #18 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 06:42 PM
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Hmm im just now seeing this....interesting forum maybe i will get somewhat edumicated on religion....i probably need it more than anyone here
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post #19 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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Stated your opinion exactly... Just like anybody else would. But did anybody ask you what you thought about Christians? no. So you pushed your idea/belief in this thread. Thats all Im stating, nothing more
I am not pushing anybody to believe what I believe, I don't keep hounding on anybody to do what I do. so I am trying to see where I pushing my idea on anybody. I stated my opinion, I didn't ask nor force anybody to like it or accept it.
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post #20 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 12:02 AM Thread Starter
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So then it's obvious that you don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god. Okay, it's all good. Now I can go to the next question. So what does your god tell you? It's obvious you give in to the idea that there is a higher entity up in the house So how do you serve your god? How do you know what his will is? Most other religions at least have some written or accepted doctrine. What is yours?

So sending out a message of Love during a time of chaos and killing is a way of controlling? Well yes, I guess you could say that. What would you rather have happen?

I guess that's your opinion. I know some poor and sick people that would disagree. But, so be it. That's how you feel.

You haven't read up on Israel, have you?
I talk to god all the time, never get an answer, and don't expcet one either. For a time I didn't believe in god, that had more to do with what I went thru as a child. But I have "faith" that there has to be a higher being than humans.

I tend to follow the christian faith more closely than any other I suppose, I mean if i do go to church it is almost alway a baptist church, even enjoy going to my grandma church when I am there.

sending love and care is good and all, but at the same time it is telling people don't do what you feel is right let those in charge do that, even though they sat and let the fuel burn out before stepping in. It is used by giving false hope, though I do believe without hope we are nothing, but every church I have atteneded at some point in time tells us all that no matter what happens god will look after us. So when you get beat down, rob, etc.. don't worry god will take care of you. But if god is going to take care us all then why would we need police or armies? that's right he gave man freewill, but then he tells us that if you don't believe in me you will suffer, so you have freewill just as long as it serves me. So looky looky that is the control. Be careful what you do cause I will know and punish you.

The only law is god's law, oh and that of man because man's law is also god's law. Funny so does god intravene when we make new laws? what? No? how can man's law be god's law then, of the bible tells us so. Hmmm who makes laws could it be the rich, upper class, or does the middle and lower class people choose?

Now as for the poor and sick people that trusted in "god's word" and was told the benny hinn was going to heal their pains, then come to find out they aren't healed at all. Oh wait he is just a fake.

and as for the comment about jews, I stated I know it is wrong, but it seems like it. meaning that statement is not so much about the truth as it is about the way they are precieved in america. I know that every religion has it rich, poor, and undesirables, but that comment was said as the way it seems they are the only one that are made up of upper class.

and if any of this doesn't make sense, it is because I think faster than I type and I might have left out somethings but I will post them if I remember anything left out.
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post #21 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 05:33 AM
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Now as for the poor and sick people that trusted in "god's word" and was told the benny hinn was going to heal their pains, then come to find out they aren't healed at all. Oh wait he is just a fake.
One of the biggest sins in America is unbelief within the church. There are sick and poor in the world because of unbelief. It has nothing to do with Benny Hinn. If they were told that he could heal them then they were led astray and it is no wonder they were not healed. Benny Hinn has never said that he could heal anyone. When someone claims that they have been healed he always tells them to go to their doctor to verify their healing. He says that it is the power of God that heals and nothing else. Jesus was able to raise the dead and heal the sick. He also said that we would be able to perform the same miracles and even greater ones. So to say Benny Hinn is a fake because someone believes he can heal them and they dont get healed is just being misimformed.
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post #22 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 05:51 AM
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Originally posted by MoonDog
One of the biggest sins in America is unbelief within the church. There are sick and poor in the world because of unbelief. It has nothing to do with Benny Hinn. If they were told that he could heal them then they were led astray and it is no wonder they were not healed. Benny Hinn has never said that he could heal anyone. When someone claims that they have been healed he always tells them to go to their doctor to verify their healing. He says that it is the power of God that heals and nothing else. Jesus was able to raise the dead and heal the sick. He also said that we would be able to perform the same miracles and even greater ones. So to say Benny Hinn is a fake because someone believes he can heal them and they dont get healed is just being misimformed.
You believe Benny Hinn?!!!!!! LOL I think that dude is what gives religion a bad name.

Just my opinion.

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post #23 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 06:16 AM
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You believe Benny Hinn?!!!!!! LOL I think that dude is what gives religion a bad name.

Just my opinion.
So you dont believe Mark 16:15-18? You cant just pick and choose what to believe.

Some people dont believe you should have music in church but in Psalm 150 it says "Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals." You have to believe the whole bible. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If it was good enough for the believers of the first century then it is good enough for us now.

And it is really guys like Robert Tilton and Jim Baker that give "religion" a bad name. The ones that rip people off for their own personal gain. Those are they guys that never last. Benny Hinn on the other hand is still around because, whether he is right or wrong, he has a heart after the Lord.
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post #24 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 06:22 AM
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I talk to god all the time, never get an answer, and don't expcet one either.
What are you expecting? The answers are in the Bible. You have a spiritual antenna that isn't turned on. If you take on the spirit of Christ you can understand God's answers to you.
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For a time I didn't believe in god, that had more to do with what I went thru as a child. But I have "faith" that there has to be a higher being than humans.
Then use that faith and find out what the "higher being" wants from you.

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sending love and care is good and all, but at the same time it is telling people don't do what you feel is right let those in charge do that, even though they sat and let the fuel burn out before stepping in.
Like we've said before, it is true that some professing christians use and abuse people but, there happen to be a ton of Christians on the battle lines, so to speak. They reach out to people in Christian un-friendly places (Afghanistan, Iraq) there are missionaries in China, Korea. There is more good being done by Christians than you give us credit for.

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It is used by giving false hope, though I do believe without hope we are nothing, but every church I have atteneded at some point in time tells us all that no matter what happens god will look after us. So when you get beat down, rob, etc.. don't worry god will take care of you. But if god is going to take care us all then why would we need police or armies?
It's not false hope to the believer. We live not for this world but, for heaven. (Romans 5:2) through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (Romans 5:5)and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.


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that's right he gave man freewill, but then he tells us that if you don't believe in me you will suffer, so you have freewill just as long as it serves me.
Yes, I have no qualms about saying that we are here to serve God. He is our creator. We serve Him. But I ask you, what is so bad about serving God? Is there something that He asks of you that is hard to bear? He asks us not to commit adultry, not to kill, He commands us to love thy neighbor, to forgive one another, to admonish one another, to refrain from sexual immorality.
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So looky looky that is the control. Be careful what you do cause I will know and punish you.
I thought you were talking about man controlling, not God. One thing you are missing is that God does know what we do but, once we take on Christ in baptism we are forgiven of our transgressions. We should then on, strive to live a Godly life and in doing so, we have escaped hell. God isn't sitting there waiting to spank us! There is freedom in Christ, not oppression.

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post #25 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by MoonDog
So you dont believe Mark 16:15-18? You cant just pick and choose what to believe.

Some people dont believe you should have music in church but in Psalm 150 it says "Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals." You have to believe the whole bible. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If it was good enough for the believers of the first century then it is good enough for us now.

And it is really guys like Robert Tilton and Jim Baker that give "religion" a bad name. The ones that rip people off for their own personal gain. Those are they guys that never last. Benny Hinn on the other hand is still around because, whether he is right or wrong, he has a heart after the Lord.
Bro, I'm talking abot him blowing on people and proclaiming to heal them. LOL not about proclaiming the gospel. I said it was my opinion. I can't believe you're going off on me like this.

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post #26 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 06:27 AM
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One of the biggest sins in America is unbelief within the church. There are sick and poor in the world because of unbelief. It has nothing to do with Benny Hinn. If they were told that he could heal them then they were led astray and it is no wonder they were not healed. Benny Hinn has never said that he could heal anyone. When someone claims that they have been healed he always tells them to go to their doctor to verify their healing. He says that it is the power of God that heals and nothing else. Jesus was able to raise the dead and heal the sick. He also said that we would be able to perform the same miracles and even greater ones. So to say Benny Hinn is a fake because someone believes he can heal them and they dont get healed is just being misimformed.
So you believe it when Benny Hinn says the Lord was on stage and when Benny moved his arm, the Lord moved his, when Benny says he moved his leg, the Lord moved his, and that they eventually merged into one person (Benny of course)?
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post #27 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 06:52 AM
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Bro, I'm talking abot him blowing on people and proclaiming to heal them. LOL not about proclaiming the gospel. I said it was my opinion. I can't believe you're going off on me like this.
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So you believe it when Benny Hinn says the Lord was on stage and when Benny moved his arm, the Lord moved his, when Benny says he moved his leg, the Lord moved his, and that they eventually merged into one person (Benny of course)?
No JC, I am not going off on you. You laughed at the fact that I was defending Benny Hinn. So I was just telling you where I stand. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, maybe I took your statement the wrong way also.

To both you and Eric, I dont agree with everything that he does and says. He used to say things 10 years ago that he doesn't say or believe now, somethings that would blow your mind if I told you. I dont agree with the blowing, I dont agree with the waving of his appendages. But I have never once heard him say that he can or ever has healed anyone. He always says that it was God that did the healing. I will defend what anyone does as long as it lines up with the bible.

But on the other hand, Jesus once breathed on the disciples:
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
So I can understand where Benny gets this. But the Holy Spirit can only come from God, it cant come from just anyone blowing on you, IMO.
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post #28 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 07:07 AM
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No JC, I am not going off on you. You laughed at the fact that I was defending Benny Hinn. So I was just telling you where I stand. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, maybe I took your statement the wrong way also.

To both you and Eric, I dont agree with everything that he does and says. He used to say things 10 years ago that he doesn't say or believe now, somethings that would blow your mind if I told you. I dont agree with the blowing, I dont agree with the waving of his appendages. But I have never once heard him say that he can or ever has healed anyone. He always says that it was God that did the healing. I will defend what anyone does as long as it lines up with the bible.

But on the other hand, Jesus once breathed on the disciples:
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
So I can understand where Benny gets this. But the Holy Spirit can only come from God, it cant come from just anyone blowing on you, IMO.
I just didn't think that you would believe in him and what he claims to do. I sent you a PM on it. Let me know what you think.

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You believe Benny Hinn?!!!!!! LOL I think that dude is what gives religion a bad name.

Just my opinion.
I only used him becuase I couldn't think of the other guys that used God's name for personal gain, and to rape the weak and poor.
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post #30 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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Like we've said before, it is true that some professing christians use and abuse people but, there happen to be a ton of Christians on the battle lines, so to speak. They reach out to people in Christian un-friendly places (Afghanistan, Iraq) there are missionaries in China, Korea. There is more good being done by Christians than you give us credit for.


Yes, I have no qualms about saying that we are here to serve God. He is our creator. We serve Him. But I ask you, what is so bad about serving God? Is there something that He asks of you that is hard to bear? He asks us not to commit adultry, not to kill, He commands us to love thy neighbor, to forgive one another, to admonish one another, to refrain from sexual immorality.
I thought you were talking about man controlling, not God. One thing you are missing is that God does know what we do but, once we take on Christ in baptism we are forgiven of our transgressions. We should then on, strive to live a Godly life and in doing so, we have escaped hell. God isn't sitting there waiting to spank us! There is freedom in Christ, not oppression.
the 1st part is one of the problems i have with religion. why do we think it is our job to go tell a billion china men that they are wrong in belieiving what they do, or that all the hindu, buddist, etc... are all going to hell because they don't follow the bible. if god is all knowing and all powerful then he would have made himself known to those people around the same time he showed up in europe. but since his didn't that means that for 1800 yrs or so all those people are in hell as we speak for something they didn't know. how is that a just god.

but almost all religions i know of teach the exact same things don't kill, steal, commit adultry, they just don't use it as GOD'S word, or at least not that i know.

And speaking of god's laws lets think abou this for a second. Did god not break a few of his 10 laws? Correct if I am worng but dosn't it say do not covent(something like that) thy neighbor, but god did so with mary who was married to joesph. Thou shalt not commit adultry but mary did.
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post #31 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 06:24 AM
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the 1st part is one of the problems i have with religion. why do we think it is our job to go tell a billion china men that they are wrong in belieiving what they do, or that all the hindu, buddist, etc... are all going to hell because they don't follow the bible.
Because we want to save them from eternal damnation. We believe a certain truth, and we are commanded to go into the world and spread the message. Not with malice or ill intent but, with love and because we love. (some overzealous christians miss the last point)

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he would have made himself known to those people around the same time he showed up in europe.
Huh?

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but since his didn't that means that for 1800 yrs or so all those people are in hell as we speak for something they didn't know. how is that a just god.
1.) No one has been judged yet, no one is in Hell. 2.) I went through this with Al P in 02, I can send you a PM with the details (it's alot to type). Basically we know from scripture (Romans 2 14-16) that God will not hold the Gentiles accountable for what they HAVEN'T heard. Only for what they HAVE heard and seen and chose not to believe.

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And speaking of god's laws lets think abou this for a second. Did god not break a few of his 10 laws? Correct if I am worng but dosn't it say do not covent(something like that) thy neighbor, but god did so with mary who was married to joesph. Thou shalt not commit adultry but mary did.
1.) Mary and Josehp weren't married. They were espoused to each other when she was made pregnant. But that bears no bearing on the fact that God didn't have sex with Mary, like it seems that you are alluding to. Jesus was created in her womb not with a combining of some "holy sperm" and her egg, but by the Holy Spirit.

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post #32 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
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Because we want to save them from eternal damnation. We believe a certain truth, and we are commanded to go into the world and spread the message. Not with malice or ill intent but, with love and because we love. (some overzealous christians miss the last point)

Huh?

1.) No one has been judged yet, no one is in Hell. 2.) I went through this with Al P in 02, I can send you a PM with the details (it's alot to type). Basically we know from scripture (Romans 2 14-16) that God will not hold the Gentiles accountable for what they HAVEN'T heard. Only for what they HAVE heard and seen and chose not to believe.

1.) Mary and Josehp weren't married. They were espoused to each other when she was made pregnant. But that bears no bearing on the fact that God didn't have sex with Mary, like it seems that you are alluding to. Jesus was created in her womb not with a combining of some "holy sperm" and her egg, but by the Holy Spirit.
that is supposed to read eruope and middle east, I just let that out about jesus and where he had been. and I was always told that mary and joseph were married.

and as for so lets just skip back to the ones god doesn't hold accountable, if he doesn't hold you accountable then why would christian want to go and put people's soul in jeopardy? if they don't know then they get a free pass to heaven, right? so why mess it up for so many? most people are storng about what they believe and it is close to impossible to change most of the worlds thinking, so why put their souls at risk?
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post #33 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 08:34 AM
 
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that is supposed to read eruope and middle east, I just let that out about jesus and where he had been. and I was always told that mary and joseph were married.

and as for so lets just skip back to the ones god doesn't hold accountable, if he doesn't hold you accountable then why would christian want to go and put people's soul in jeopardy? if they don't know then they get a free pass to heaven, right? so why mess it up for so many? most people are storng about what they believe and it is close to impossible to change most of the worlds thinking, so why put their souls at risk?
I believe that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ being the Son of God, His death, Burial, and Resurrection, and ultimately His atonement for mankind's sin will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Hell is simply a holding place for the lost souls who have died to this point and it will be emptied intot the Lake of Fire (eternal holding place for all lost and Satan) at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Your comments stating that Christians are putting lost souls at risk is absolutely incorrect. That denies personal responsibility. We all have a choice and will be judged according to the choice we make to accept Christ or not.

Also, no one has any free pass to heaven - Jesus says, "No man comes the Father but by me!"

Lee
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post #34 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 08:38 AM
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that is supposed to read eruope and middle east, I just let that out about jesus and where he had been.
Unless I missed something, the Bible makes no mention of Jesus going to Europe.

Quote:
and I was always told that mary and joseph were married.
They did get married. But when she became pregnant they were not. Joseph was gonna diss her when he learned of her condition but, the Angel of the Lord told him what was up and he stayed with her and went ahead and married her.

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post #35 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 08:48 AM
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I believe that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ being the Son of God, His death, Burial, and Resurrection, and ultimately His atonement for mankind's sin will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Hell is simply a holding place for the lost souls who have died to this point and it will be emptied intot the Lake of Fire (eternal holding place for all lost and Satan) at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Your comments stating that Christians are putting lost souls at risk is absolutely incorrect. That denies personal responsibility. We all have a choice and will be judged according to the choice we make to accept Christ or not.

Also, no one has any free pass to heaven - Jesus says, "No man comes the Father but by me!"

Lee
Im with you bro.
Romans 1:18-20
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
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post #36 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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I believe that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ being the Son of God, His death, Burial, and Resurrection, and ultimately His atonement for mankind's sin will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Hell is simply a holding place for the lost souls who have died to this point and it will be emptied intot the Lake of Fire (eternal holding place for all lost and Satan) at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Your comments stating that Christians are putting lost souls at risk is absolutely incorrect. That denies personal responsibility. We all have a choice and will be judged according to the choice we make to accept Christ or not.

Also, no one has any free pass to heaven - Jesus says, "No man comes the Father but by me!"

Lee
this was written by JC

1.) No one has been judged yet, no one is in Hell. 2.) I went through this with Al P in 02, I can send you a PM with the details (it's alot to type). Basically we know from scripture (Romans 2 14-16) that God will not hold the Gentiles accountable for what they HAVEN'T heard. Only for what they HAVE heard and seen and chose not to believe.


so which is correct then? this is where I lose all faith in religion, not in god just religion
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Interesting conversation.

Lee, 281R

I take it that you guys don't agree with me?

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post #38 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 09:10 AM
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Joseph was gonna diss her when he learned of her condition but, the Angel of the Lord told him what was up and he stayed with her and went ahead and married her.
I can see Joseph now:
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post #39 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 09:19 AM
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this was written by JC

1.) No one has been judged yet, no one is in Hell. 2.) I went through this with Al P in 02, I can send you a PM with the details (it's alot to type). Basically we know from scripture (Romans 2 14-16) that God will not hold the Gentiles accountable for what they HAVEN'T heard. Only for what they HAVE heard and seen and chose not to believe.


so which is correct then? this is where I lose all faith in religion, not in god just religion
I see no difference in Hell and the Lake of Fire. It is the same thing. I don't know if me and the other guys are caught up in semantics but, I welcome their input.

And as far as Christ being the way like 281R said, yes he is. But the fact that the Gentiles who didn't have the law offered to them previoulsy needs to be reconciled with the fact that God is just. And I believe that Romans 2 says that they will not be judged by something that they did not have. *see also Luke 12: 47-48

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post #40 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 09:29 AM
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Hell is simply a holding place for the lost souls who have died to this point and it will be emptied intot the Lake of Fire (eternal holding place for all lost and Satan) at the Great White Throne Judgement.


Lee
Are you thinking about Hades?

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post #41 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 09:39 AM
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Are you thinking about Hades?
Hades, hell, and the grave are all the same. The Lake of Fire is just that, a lake of fire. Check the original greek they are different words that are used.

Free pass to heaven? Not so sure about that. But I am not sure if they have a free pass to hell either. Basicly, I have no idea.

Last edited by MoonDog; 02-25-2004 at 09:41 AM.
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post #42 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 09:39 AM
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and as for so lets just skip back to the ones god doesn't hold accountable, if he doesn't hold you accountable then why would christian want to go and put people's soul in jeopardy? if they don't know then they get a free pass to heaven, right? so why mess it up for so many? most people are storng about what they believe and it is close to impossible to change most of the worlds thinking, so why put their souls at risk?
We go to them because they are lost. Just because they don't know of the word doesn't give them a "free pass". They aren't promised heaven. I don't think they're promised hell either.

I'm just saying that they aren't judged by the OT law or the Law of Liberty.

Luke 12: 47-48

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post #43 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 09:52 AM
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Hades, hell, and the grave are all the same. The Lake of Fire is just that, a lake of fire. Check the original greek they are different words that are used.


consider this.

Hades is a greek word. Equivalent to Sheol (Hebrew) And it is used in many instances in the greek NT

Check out the greek words used in Revelation 20 v. 13 is Hades delivered up the dead. v. 15 is the dead from Hades being cast into the "lake of fire" or the greek word Gehenna. (Two different places) close but not the same (Like Dallas and Ft. worth)

Your Thoughts?
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Interesting conversation.

Lee, 281R

I take it that you guys don't agree with me?
I believe Gods judgement is outside of our time. We have a beginning and end on this earth and He dose not. I believe all that trusted Him before Christ are still recognciled. But the agnostic I do believe God will cast judgement upon them along with the athiest in the end. There is no escaping God's judgement unless through the blood of Jesus Christ. I think Christ was God, and those who put their faith in God before the sacrifice also put their trust in Christ b/c Christ is God in man's flesh.
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post #45 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 10:24 AM
 
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so which is correct then? this is where I lose all faith in religion, not in god just religion
Cartman,

There are many things in the Bible which are open for friendly debate, but that wouldn't cause me throw away the Word of God as Truth!

If everyone agreed - then all would think like me because I am always right - j/k - No but all would think the same which is unheard of about anything...

Hey, there are some verses of scripture I read 70 times and get something new or different from them each time.

BTW - I lost faith in religion when I got saved It is not about denominations or religion, but about serving Chirst!
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post #46 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 10:31 AM
 
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And as far as Christ being the way like 281R said, yes he is. But the fact that the Gentiles who didn't have the law offered to them previoulsy needs to be reconciled with the fact that God is just. And I believe that Romans 2 says that they will not be judged by something that they did not have. *see also Luke 12: 47-48
Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

The scripture referenced in Luke only speaks of different "levels" or reward and punishment which I thoroughly agree with

Lee
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post #47 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 10:57 AM
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consider this.

Hades is a greek word. Equivalent to Sheol (Hebrew) And it is used in many instances in the greek NT

Check out the greek words used in Revelation 20 v. 13 is Hades delivered up the dead. v. 15 is the dead from Hades being cast into the "lake of fire" or the greek word Gehenna. (Two different places) close but not the same (Like Dallas and Ft. worth)

Your Thoughts?
You are correct in stating that there are two words translated into hell, hades and gehenna. Hades literally means hell or grave. Gehenna was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned and it too is usually translated hell.

In Rev 20:15 that you mention it does not use the word gehenna, it uses the two greek words limne which means lake or pond and pur which means fiery or fire.

In Rev. 20:14 it says that death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. If hell and the lake of fire are the samething then how can hell be cast into it.
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post #48 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 11:04 AM
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Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

The scripture referenced in Luke only speaks of different "levels" or reward and punishment which I thoroughly agree with

Lee
What did Romans 2:8 have to do with what you and I were talking about?

In reference to Luke. Yes there will be different levels but, look at the text where it speaks of the "servant that knew NOT his masters will but, did things deserving of stripes, he will recieve few stripes".

The gentiles who had not the law aren't promised heaven but, we don't know if they are promised eternal damnation either.

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post #49 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 11:28 AM
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You are correct in stating that there are two words translated into hell, hades and gehenna. Hades literally means hell or grave. Gehenna was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned and it too is usually translated hell.

In Rev 20:15 that you mention it does not use the word gehenna, it uses the two greek words limne which means lake or pond and pur which means fiery or fire.

In Rev. 20:14 it says that death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. If hell and the lake of fire are the samething then how can hell be cast into it.
I said that 13 uses hades or Sheol (literally means"the grave") and 15 uses lake of fire or gehenna(translated as hell) There are two sides to Sheol. One is hades, the other is Abraham's bosom. Where the rich man looked up and saw Lazarus.

Rev. 20: 13-15- shows death and the grave (hades) giving up it's occupants and then they are cast into the lake of fire, gehenna, hell, place where the filthy are cast out and burned.

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post #50 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-25-2004, 11:44 AM
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I believe Gods judgement is outside of our time. We have a beginning and end on this earth and He dose not. I believe all that trusted Him before Christ are still recognciled. But the agnostic I do believe God will cast judgement upon them along with the athiest in the end. There is no escaping God's judgement unless through the blood of Jesus Christ. I think Christ was God, and those who put their faith in God before the sacrifice also put their trust in Christ b/c Christ is God in man's flesh.
I agree with everything you just said. There is no escaping God's judgement. You mentioned that the only way to escape God's judgement is through Jesus Christ. The dead in Christ will still be judged but, the judgement will be in our favor because we heard and believed and were reconiled to God through Christ Jesus. God's judgement won't be bad for us. It will be for those who chose not to accept Jesus.

But for those who didn't have an opportunity to believe in Jesus or who were not offered the OT law, they will be a law unto themselves. The "other" people in the OT were not offered the 10 commandments nor the Levitical laws. That is why Paul addresses this issue in Romans 2: 14-16

When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.


They will be judged but, we can't say that they will all be damned to hell, nor sent straight to Heaven.

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