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post #1 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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The major flaw of the Bible

The first thing that jumps out at me is that it was written by human hand. People are not perfect and are therefore incapable of putting together a perfect interpretation of anything.

So anyone who has put all of their faith in the bible is in actuality putting all of that faith in flawed creatures and not God. I don't care if the authors were divinely inspired or had a bolt of lighting shoot through them before they started writing, they were human. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not only that, but if you find six different people who were at The Last Supper, you will get six different accounts of what went down. All of the accounts will end the same but the actual journey is where you find the meat of the story.

In summation, if people put it together, there is something wrong with it.
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post #2 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 01:05 PM
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2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Next.

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post #3 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Next.
So you pull from a text written by humans to prove your point.

Thats "perfect"!
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post #4 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 01:12 PM
 
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To limit God by saying He cannot write the scriptures with the hands of men is absurd. God could have done any way he wanted (Ex. the 10 commandments written in stone), but He chose to author it with men's hands.

How do I know?
God said He did it in this manner and God cannot lie.
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post #5 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by four5.0snomore
To limit God by saying He cannot write the scriptures with the hands of men is absurd. God could have done any way he wanted (Ex. the 10 commandments written in stone), but He chose to author it with men's hands.

How do I know?
God said He did it in this manner and God cannot lie.
I am sure that God can do whatever He wants. Why He would go through the hands of men that he created imperfectly (to make mistakes by design) doesn't make sense. And then he had an imperfect guy write that he can call himself a man of God and then all of a sudden be perfect. We will never know if that is what HE really said. You know why? Because ears created by design to be imperfect heard it.

Sure, God said He did it in this manner but he didn't do any of the pen work.

And yeah, God has entrusted humans before and has gotten some really good results. But then I just look at the current system of things.
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post #6 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 02:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
I am sure that God can do whatever He wants. Why He would go through the hands of men that he created imperfectly (to make mistakes by design) doesn't make sense. And then he had an imperfect guy write that he can call himself a man of God and then all of a sudden be perfect. We will never know if that is what HE really said. You know why? Because ears created by design to be imperfect heard it.

Sure, God said He did it in this manner but he didn't do any of the pen work.

And yeah, God has entrusted humans before and has gotten some really good results. But then I just look at the current system of things.
1. Why doesn't it make sense that God can write something through man's hand?

2. Who said anyone was perfect?

3. What does God writing the scriptures have to do with a man's ears?

Basically, you are just guessing or offering opinions. This is only natural though for one who does not believe Jesus is the Son of God, He is the Word that became flesh, and God cannot lie.

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post #7 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 02:34 PM
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The fundamental problem is that the Bible has been translated by people. And inspired by God or not, men are imperfect.

Don't believe men are imperfect in what they think God is saying?

Then why do the Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.... exist?

I don't think God can lie but men can certainly miss the point today, just as they have for centuries....
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post #8 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 03:11 PM
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Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
People are not perfect and are therefore incapable of putting together a perfect interpretation of anything.
This is a huge stretch So I guess anything anybody (thats human) writes about is not absolute correct
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post #9 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
In summation, if people put it together, there is something wrong with it.
I agree. An example can be found in the first post of this thread.
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post #10 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 06:06 PM
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Do you people believe that George Washington was the first president of the US? How about Napoleon, was he the great leader everyone says he was? Did Ghengis Khan really even exist? Alexander the Great, I bet he was just a punk kid from the Bronx. After all, all the history books were written by men and I believe that all the stories were just made up to make these people look like great leaders when they were nothing more than bullies.
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post #11 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
So you pull from a text written by humans to prove your point.

Thats "perfect"!
Yes. What I did was let you see that the Bible was written by men with God's divine guidance. Which prevents the Bible from having flaws and contradictions. All you did was propose that since men are flawed, then naturally the bible is flawed. Yet you back your position with no support. What you did successfully convey to me is that your argument is flawed.

Now back to the question. Where are the flaws?

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post #12 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
Yes. What I did was let you see that the Bible was written by men with God's divine guidance. Which prevents the Bible from having flaws and contradictions. All you did was propose that since men are flawed, then naturally the bible is flawed. Yet you back your position with no support. What you did successfully convey to me is that your argument is flawed.

Now back to the question. Where are the flaws?
Does God lie? Does He provide/use deception?
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post #13 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 09:08 PM
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Throughout the Bible it speaks of the "truth of God" or calls Him the "God of truth". Hebrews 6:18 states that it is impossible for God to lie.
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post #14 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Throughout the Bible it speaks of the "truth of God" or calls Him the "God of truth". Hebrews 6:18 states that it is impossible for God to lie.
Does he provide deception?
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post #15 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-20-2004, 09:20 PM
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I believe only to those who have already turned their backs on Him and believed a lie. 2Thessalonians 2
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2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 06:38 PM
 
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As much as I'd like to stay out of this one, it's difficult. All I'm going to say is this:

Religion is based on faith. Faith that what you are reading is what you hope it to be.

Interpret that as you will.
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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-21-2004, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashStitches
As much as I'd like to stay out of this one, it's difficult. All I'm going to say is this:

Religion is based on faith. Faith that what you are reading is what you hope it to be.

Interpret that as you will.
Faith:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

So faith is not hoping something is true, it is the belief that it is indeed true.
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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-22-2004, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Faith:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

So faith is not hoping something is true, it is the belief that it is indeed true.
Just because you believe it is true, doesn't mean it is.
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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-22-2004, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Throughout the Bible it speaks of the "truth of God" or calls Him the "God of truth". Hebrews 6:18 states that it is impossible for God to lie.
So be it. That's still the word of MAN saying that God can't lie, so therefore, THEIR word must be true. Isn't it odd how that works in the favor of man??
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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-22-2004, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
Yes. What I did was let you see that the Bible was written by men with God's divine guidance. Which prevents the Bible from having flaws and contradictions. All you did was propose that since men are flawed, then naturally the bible is flawed. Yet you back your position with no support. What you did successfully convey to me is that your argument is flawed.

Now back to the question. Where are the flaws?
JC, all you've done is try to portray that 'men of God' are superior to other men. But, you have no support, since the writtings of men (i.e. the Bible) can't be included since you're discussing the superiority of groups of men.
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post #21 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-22-2004, 10:07 PM
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Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by 281R
This is a huge stretch
How is that a huge stretch?? Don't try to tell me that you've never heard the same story from 2 different people, and that it was exactly the same.
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post #22 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 01:13 AM
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Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
People are not perfect and are therefore incapable of putting together a perfect interpretation of anything.
In summation, if people put it together, there is something wrong with it.

LOL I'm sorry, but that's got to be one of the stupidest arguments. "Since people are flawed, so must be the Bible". Ok, this may not be exactly the same, but since people are flawed, and if people put it together, is science flawed as well? I mean, we are incapable of putting together a perfect interpretation of anything.


And yes, I have heard the same exact story from two different people and it was exactly the same. Truthful people speak the truth, and don't embellish the story. It has happened many times. But it also happens hundreds of times over the other way, simply because that is mans nature to sin. But when man is inspired by God, he can only write the truth. (That isn't the "light bulb over the top of the head" type of inspired either, for those who didn't know). And you people will always go back to "it was written by a man, it's still the work of a man". What about all the other religions? They must be flawed as well since they were written by man too, right? I mean, there is no historical proof that there was a divine object or parchment delivered to us from the heavens telling us to live. That would be too easy.

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post #23 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tex
JC, all you've done is try to portray that 'men of God' are superior to other men. But, you have no support, since the writtings of men (i.e. the Bible) can't be included since you're discussing the superiority of groups of men.
I've portrayed that they had divine guidance. It was not the men at all that kept the integrity of the Bible; It was God.

My support, is the Bible, and the words contained therin, since they are the very items that are being discounted by you and others. You have the words and the integrity of the Bible on "trial" here, so to speak. So therefore it will be included as my support.

BTW.........You two still haven't produced a flaw.

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post #24 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tex
Just because you believe it is true, doesn't mean it is.
And just because you believe it to be untrue doesn't make you right. In the end you will find the truth, you just better hope it isn't to late.

Repost from another thread
Who here has ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Prior to the discovery of the Qumran manuscripts, the earliest Old Testament texts were dated from about 980 AD. The Isaiah scrolls found at Qumran closed that gap to within 500 years of the original manuscript. Interestingly, when scholars compared the Old Testament texts of Isaiah to the Isaiah scroll of Qumran, the texts from Qumran proved to be word-for-word identical to our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent of variation consisted primarily of obvious slips of the pen and spelling alterations.

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post #25 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 08:12 AM
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Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by tex
How is that a huge stretch?? Don't try to tell me that you've never heard the same story from 2 different people, and that it was exactly the same.
he basically just said anything a human writes is not or cannot be absolutely correct. That statement is very ignorant.
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post #26 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 08:53 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by 281R
he basically just said anything a human writes is not or cannot be absolutely correct. That statement is very ignorant.
It may be ignorant to say that man can not produce anything correctly, but it is equally ignorant to not allow the possiblity for something to be incorrect.
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post #27 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
And just because you believe it to be untrue doesn't make you right. In the end you will find the truth, you just better hope it isn't to late.
Don't try to push yourself on to me. I can make my own decisions, YOUR opinion means squat to me.

I never said I was right, I'm just remembering you saying how openminded you are, how contradictory.
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
b]Repost from another thread
Who here has ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Prior to the discovery of the Qumran manuscripts, the earliest Old Testament texts were dated from about 980 AD. The Isaiah scrolls found at Qumran closed that gap to within 500 years of the original manuscript. Interestingly, when scholars compared the Old Testament texts of Isaiah to the Isaiah scroll of Qumran, the texts from Qumran proved to be word-for-word identical to our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent of variation consisted primarily of obvious slips of the pen and spelling alterations. [/B]
5% within one language, and you think that supports your arguement??
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post #28 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
I've portrayed that they had divine guidance. It was not the men at all that kept the integrity of the Bible; It was God.

My support, is the Bible, and the words contained therin, since they are the very items that are being discounted by you and others. You have the words and the integrity of the Bible on "trial" here, so to speak. So therefore it will be included as my support.

BTW.........You two still haven't produced a flaw.
I've produced the same flaw that you and others have tried to use to discount science. The only support for the Bible is the Bible itself, but if it's turned around to where the only support for science is science, that isn't good enough. How can you argue that in one instance this is true, and in the other it isn't??

Saying that an entity is pure because the being that is currently up for debate made it pure is sadly without base. I can say that anything I write about basketball must be true, because I was merely a utensil that a higher basketball being used to write with. That's as crazy, and unfounded, as you saying the Bible MUST be true because of similar arguments.
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post #29 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 09:07 AM
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Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by JackFlash19


And yes, I have heard the same exact story from two different people and it was exactly the same. Truthful people speak the truth, and don't embellish the story. It has happened many times. But it also happens hundreds of times over the other way, simply because that is mans nature to sin.
It's isn't natural sin that makes men forget details, or keeps them from knowing a word in a language that isn't natural to them. Every human error doesn't have to be sin, don't imply that 2 people telling different versions of the same story has to be a sin.
Quote:
Originally posted by JackFlash19
But when man is inspired by God, he can only write the truth. (That isn't the "light bulb over the top of the head" type of inspired either, for those who didn't know). And you people will always go back to "it was written by a man, it's still the work of a man". What about all the other religions? They must be flawed as well since they were written by man too, right? I mean, there is no historical proof that there was a divine object or parchment delivered to us from the heavens telling us to live. That would be too easy.
No one picked your religion to debate, anything being questioned here is relative to all religions. Don't subjectify it to the one you happen to believe.
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post #30 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 09:10 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by tex
It may be ignorant to say that man can not produce anything correctly
Thats my point
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post #31 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tex
I've produced the same flaw that you and others have tried to use to discount science.
To my knowledge neither myself or the others have tried to discount Science. We merely look at Science from a Creationist POV rather than an Atheistic one.


Quote:

The only support for the Bible is the Bible itself, but if it's turned around to where the only support for science is science, that isn't good enough. How can you argue that in one instance this is true, and in the other it isn't??
The only support for Science; IS Science! Especially in the arena of radiometric dating where one outcome is compared with other similar outcomes. Science is based upon Science. That's how the work grows and new knowledge is built upon the old. The Bible makes certain claims about what it is. Those claims have stood the test of time. The Bible doesn't trip over itself and it is infallable. It supports itself and it is support by history. Recordable and traceable, and secular history.

Quote:

Saying that an entity is pure because the being that is currently up for debate made it pure is sadly without base.
Maybe for you but, you are attempting to debate with someone who believes in a higher entity. I believe in God. You do not. My whole stance consists in a belief of a higher power. So if you're gonna debate with me over that fact, then you need to understand that I'm going to use references to Him. Your position in this thread is for the suggestion that the Bible is flawed. My position is that I believe it is the inspired word of God given to us through men. I back my postion used the words written in this "flawed" book. It is on you to show the flaws in the subject of this thread........THE BIBLE. WHICH YOU STILL HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO DO

Quote:

I can say that anything I write about basketball must be true, because I was merely a utensil that a higher basketball being used to write with. That's as crazy, and unfounded, as you saying the Bible MUST be true because of similar arguments.
If your faith is in a BasketBall being then that's where it lies. It's your faith! Ours is in God. Therefore, if our God says that the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by Him then that's what we believe. You see, we believe in a divine creator, something better, bigger and more powerful than us. You do not.

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post #32 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
To my knowledge neither myself or the others have tried to discount Science. We merely look at Science from a Creationist POV rather than an Atheistic one.


The only support for Science; IS Science! Especially in the arena of radiometric dating where one outcome is compared with other similar outcomes. Science is based upon Science. That's how the work grows and new knowledge is built upon the old. The Bible makes certain claims about what it is. Those claims have stood the test of time. The Bible doesn't trip over itself and it is infallable. It supports itself and it is support by history. Recordable and traceable, and secular history.
If science is built on itself, and is still discounted by you, then how can you say the Bible is infallable, when it has the same support system?? You're still saying that science is flawed, but the Bible isn't.
Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
Maybe for you but, you are attempting to debate with someone who believes in a higher entity. I believe in God. You do not. My whole stance consists in a belief of a higher power. So if you're gonna debate with me over that fact, then you need to understand that I'm going to use references to Him. Your position in this thread is for the suggestion that the Bible is flawed. My position is that I believe it is the inspired word of God given to us through men. I back my postion used the words written in this "flawed" book. It is on you to show the flaws in the subject of this thread........THE BIBLE. WHICH YOU STILL HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO DO
I don't believe in God?? How do YOU know this?? Not a single person on this message board has EVER asked me what my beliefs are. Just because I expect people to be able to use logical reasons for supporting their beliefs, I'm suddenly a pagan hater. The whole 'You're stupid, and I'm right because I said so.' I apologize if you don't like my questioning your beliefs, but don't label me without knowing what you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
If your faith is in a BasketBall being then that's where it lies. It's your faith! Ours is in God. Therefore, if our God says that the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by Him then that's what we believe. You see, we believe in a divine creator, something better, bigger and more powerful than us. You do not.
Bad show, JC. I question you guys because I expect you all, as intelligent men, to be able to go beyond the typical church mantra of 'it's right because we said so.' After 2000 years of organized religion, there has to be something that can be used as support besides 'the Bible is right, and has never been proved wrong.' Don't forget, that none of you have ever seen it proved correct, either. You've seen instances of people solving huge problems in their life, but the truth be told, they did that with their own personal beliefs, not because what they believed in actually existed. The human mind is powerful enough to project it's thoughts into actions that aren't readily recognizable as being humanly possible, but that doesn't mean they're the work of a supreme being. An example:
We've all heard stories about people in situations where they save another person with feats of strength that we can't understand. There are guys who lift cars off of people being crushed, because they are so charged at the moment they don't sit there thinking that they aren't strong enough to do so. They just do it. Now saying that they were able to do so because a supreme being was working through them is a stretch, when you have nothing to prove that it's true. The only difference is that someone recorded the same theories into the Bible, and simply because they're in written form, they must be true. That's too simplistic.
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post #33 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tex
If science is built on itself, and is still discounted by you, then how can you say the Bible is infallable, when it has the same support system?? You're still saying that science is flawed, but the Bible isn't.
I'll say it again. I don't discount science. I love it just as much as you guys seem to. I just don't see it from an Atheistic POV. Is this too hard to understand? When we say that some of the scientic methods are flawed we give specific examples of the fallacies.

I've never just said "the dating methods are inaccurate" Why are they inaccurate JC? "I don't know....they are performed by men...they just are" No. I've said that they are flawed because they are based upon assumptions of the past and I've stated what they are. I've asked you to go beyond "it just is flawed" to giving me some proof from the bible that supports your position that it is flawed. You STILL HAVEN'T.

My religion is based upon faith. My stance isn't solely standing on empirical data. Yours is.

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I don't believe in God?? How do YOU know this?? Not a single person on this message board has EVER asked me what my beliefs are. Just because I expect people to be able to use logical reasons for supporting their beliefs, I'm suddenly a pagan hater. The whole 'You're stupid, and I'm right because I said so.' I apologize if you don't like my questioning your beliefs, but don't label me without knowing what you're talking about.
You're going on a ranting tangent, Tex. Your comments in recent and in past threads says otherwise. So, either you don't believe in God or you just like taking a stance that you don't believe in for the sake of arguing. Which makes debating with you an excercise in futility because you base your point off false premises. You're also ranting because I don't voice any dislike at you having an opposing position. This is called a debate. I think I'm right. You think I'm wrong and vice versa.


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Bad show, JC. I question you guys because I expect you all, as intelligent men, to be able to go beyond the typical church mantra of 'it's right because we said so.'
It's right because God said so.

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After 2000 years of organized religion, there has to be something that can be used as support besides 'the Bible is right, and has never been proved wrong.' Don't forget, that none of you have ever seen it proved correct, either.
Sure we have. But this would take another thread. I do not wish to have two different conversations in this thread. Start another, if you wish.

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You've seen instances of people solving huge problems in their life, but the truth be told, they did that with their own personal beliefs, not because what they believed in actually existed. The human mind is powerful enough to project it's thoughts into actions that aren't readily recognizable as being humanly possible, but that doesn't mean they're the work of a supreme being. An example:
We've all heard stories about people in situations where they save another person with feats of strength that we can't understand. There are guys who lift cars off of people being crushed, because they are so charged at the moment they don't sit there thinking that they aren't strong enough to do so. They just do it. Now saying that they were able to do so because a supreme being was working through them is a stretch, when you have nothing to prove that it's true. The only difference is that someone recorded the same theories into the Bible, and simply because they're in written form, they must be true. That's too simplistic.
Well you see, this would be your opinion on a certain subject. You and I will always differ on this Tex. I don't constantly berate you for feeling this way. But in the past all of your comments in religious threads were venemous and vile. It will always come down to the fact that I have certain beliefs that you do not.

I can't show you a picture of God, I don't have an autograph from J-dawg (Jesus) I have the word of God and evidence in my life and others that God is real. This is a stumbling block for you because of your perceived relative wisdom.

The Bible says it all: 1 Corinthians 2: 6-16
6 Yet when I am among mature Christians, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world, and not the kind that appeals to the rulers of this world, who are being brought to nothing. 7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the secret wisdom of God, which was hidden in former times, though he made it for our benefit before the world began. 8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would never have crucified our glorious Lord. 9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him." 10 But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets. 11 No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 12 And God has actually given us his Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 13 When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. 14 But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. 15 We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can't understand us at all. 16 How could they? For, "Who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who can give him counsel?" F11 But we can understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.

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post #34 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tex
If science is built on itself, and is still discounted by you, then how can you say the Bible is infallable, when it has the same support system?? You're still saying that science is flawed, but the Bible isn't.
I dont discredit science as a whole, I just dont see eye to eye with your way of thinking. The ancient text of the Bible do not change, science dose.

Last edited by 281R; 02-23-2004 at 10:36 AM.
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post #35 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tex
Don't try to push yourself on to me. I can make my own decisions, YOUR opinion means squat to me.
But you had said:
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Just because you believe it is true, doesn't mean it is.
So I was just stating that the same holds true to you also, sorry if you were offended by it. And if you were refering to the "In the end you will find the truth, you just better hope it isn't to late" statement as my opinion, I must disagree with you. It is a fact that we all will one day know the truth and for some of us when we find out it will be to late. I hope it isn't for you.

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Originally posted by tex
I never said I was right, I'm just remembering you saying how openminded you are, how contradictory.
5% within one language, and you think that supports your arguement??
Do you think that the people that speak Hebrew today speak it the same way they did 3,000 years ago? That is like saying that we speak English the same way the Britains did 1,000 years ago. Languages change over time and words take on new meaning and spellings change. Did you know that my name means horny in England? Did you know that they call French Fries, chips? They have many words that are spelled differently than we do. So yes, it definitly supports my arguement.

You forgot the part where I said consisted primarily of obvious slips of the pen and spelling alterations. Of the 166 Hebrew words in Isaiah 53, only seventeen letters in Qumran texts differ from the Masoretic Text. There were no major doctrinal differences between the Masoretic text and Qumran texts.

This is just one example as to how the Word of God has not changed over the centries (almost 3000 years).
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post #36 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 05:54 PM
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As I think this thread will show.... people have different opinions.
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post #37 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 11:59 PM
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Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
The first thing that jumps out at me is that it was written by human hand. People are not perfect and are therefore incapable of putting together a perfect interpretation of anything.

So anyone who has put all of their faith in the bible is in actuality putting all of that faith in flawed creatures and not God. I don't care if the authors were divinely inspired or had a bolt of lighting shoot through them before they started writing, they were human. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not only that, but if you find six different people who were at The Last Supper, you will get six different accounts of what went down. All of the accounts will end the same but the actual journey is where you find the meat of the story.

In summation, if people put it together, there is something wrong with it.
If your point is correct then nothing we read today is true. Newspapers, History books, you name it and it's too flawed to believe because humans wrote it.
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post #38 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 01:17 AM
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this argument is ridiculous.....i'm a non-believer and i can admit that IF there was a god and he had man write a bible...then i don't think he'd let them F it up....how dumb does that sound the entity controls who he sends divine inspiration to and he sends it to barney fife??? i don't think so. i don't believe because i'm very smart and a scientific person. if someone could find PROOF ...actual PROOF of something...like noah's ark or a real shroud or the arc of the covenant??? then i'd be the first to drop to my knees and beg for forgiveness because i know there are things outside of my "morals/ethics" which my believing parents raised me with that i have done.

and....the bible should stay the same since it's just been copied over and over and the only variations are from misinterpretations from the translations, etc.... it's also still very similar to other religions that date back even further that recount stories of their god with a diff name that flooded the world etc... so that's another reason i can't believe.....the religions date back to before christianity

and.....yes science is backed up by science....but if you think about the meaning of science you'll understand how that is enough to prove things. science is proving things exist, but even moreso it's something that can't be DISPROVEN. a theory doesn't become a fact until it can be proven and cannot be disproven. scientific laws can be proven, cannot be disproven, and fully explain and predict why things happen. what more proof do u need when you have science???

christianity cannot be disproven, so all i'm waiting on is someone to prove it. i hope for my sake that i'm not too late if it is true.
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post #39 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 04:31 AM
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Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by tex
It's isn't natural sin that makes men forget details, or keeps them from knowing a word in a language that isn't natural to them. Every human error doesn't have to be sin, don't imply that 2 people telling different versions of the same story has to be a sin.
No one picked your religion to debate, anything being questioned here is relative to all religions. Don't subjectify it to the one you happen to believe.

I never said it was a sin to forget details, and I never said anything about human error being a sin. I'll clarify, when people knowingly embellish a story, it is lying, and therefore a sin.
Who said anything about debating my religion? The discussion was about the "major flaw of the Bible"

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post #40 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod66stang
this argument is ridiculous.....i'm a non-believer and i can admit that IF there was a god and he had man write a bible...then i don't think he'd let them F it up....how dumb does that sound the entity controls who he sends divine inspiration to and he sends it to barney fife??? i don't think so. i don't believe because i'm very smart and a scientific person. if someone could find PROOF ...actual PROOF of something...like noah's ark or a real shroud or the arc of the covenant??? then i'd be the first to drop to my knees and beg for forgiveness because i know there are things outside of my "morals/ethics" which my believing parents raised me with that i have done.

and....the bible should stay the same since it's just been copied over and over and the only variations are from misinterpretations from the translations, etc.... it's also still very similar to other religions that date back even further that recount stories of their god with a diff name that flooded the world etc... so that's another reason i can't believe.....the religions date back to before christianity

and.....yes science is backed up by science....but if you think about the meaning of science you'll understand how that is enough to prove things. science is proving things exist, but even moreso it's something that can't be DISPROVEN. a theory doesn't become a fact until it can be proven and cannot be disproven. scientific laws can be proven, cannot be disproven, and fully explain and predict why things happen. what more proof do u need when you have science???

christianity cannot be disproven, so all i'm waiting on is someone to prove it. i hope for my sake that i'm not too late if it is true.
I think we have finally found someone here that truly has an open mind.

God will show you the proof you need one day man. And it will be when you least expect it.
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post #41 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod66stang

and....the bible should stay the same since it's just been copied over and over and the only variations are from misinterpretations from the translations, etc.... it's also still very similar to other religions that date back even further that recount stories of their god with a diff name that flooded the world etc... so that's another reason i can't believe.....the religions date back to before christianity
Yes other religions date back before "Christianity" because the organized religion called Christianity didn't come about until there was a savior called Christ. God was around before all these other religions, God had a relationship with Adam and so on before alot of His creation decided to invent other religions and worship demons and made up dietys. People were obeying God from the beginning of the Earth.

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and.....yes science is backed up by science....but if you think about the meaning of science you'll understand how that is enough to prove things. science is proving things exist, but even moreso it's something that can't be DISPROVEN. a theory doesn't become a fact until it can be proven and cannot be disproven. scientific laws can be proven, cannot be disproven, and fully explain and predict why things happen. what more proof do u need when you have science???
I would totally believe you in this aspect with every thing science explains, except the origins of the universe and this planet. I believe in electricity, I believe in the various scientific experiments that have been substansiated with repeatable experiements using facts. What I don't agree with is the thought that Scientists proclaim that there is no divine creator simply because they don't see Him. Using your words, the theory of evolution cannot be proven or disproven but, it seems to be enough for you to believe in it. It hasn't been proven yet it seems to be enough to be taught to our children in schools. What are children are told is that it is okay to believe in something that can't be proven unless it is a belief in a divine creator.

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christianity cannot be disproven, so all i'm waiting on is someone to prove it. i hope for my sake that i'm not too late if it is true.
I'm splitting hairs but, Christianity IS proven. It's a religion. I think you mean, did Jesus exist, or something along those lines?

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post #42 of 54 (permalink) Old 02-24-2004, 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
What I don't agree with is the thought that Scientists proclaim that there is no divine creator simply because they don't see Him. Using your words, the theory of evolution cannot be proven or disproven but, it seems to be enough for you to believe in it. It hasn't been proven yet it seems to be enough to be taught to our children in schools. What are children are told is that it is okay to believe in something that can't be proven unless it is a belief in a divine creator.

I'm splitting hairs but, Christianity IS proven. It's a religion. I think you mean, did Jesus exist, or something along those lines?
very good point, that's something i struggle with a lot. and you know what i meant about ol' jesus also, just because it's a religion doesn't mean it's real. egyptians had their gods and demi-gods and all that, but everyone says they never existed or the greek/roman gods...so that's saying that every proclaimed religion isn't real.
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post #43 of 54 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by 99SVTour
If your point is correct then nothing we read today is true. Newspapers, History books, you name it and it's too flawed to believe because humans wrote it.
I am glad that this came up because "true" is such a subjective term. It really depends on who is doing the writing. Even the most objective writers will end up putting some opinion in the work. For example, history books would like for you to believe that the Civil War was about slavery. Anyone who has studied deep enough in history or political science knows that isn't the complete truth.

Let's say that I feel divinely inspired to write the word of God this morning. I mean, God is really talking to me. I hear THE voice. I start to write for what seems like days. I come up with 765 pages of some the most inspired writing even written by man. Would you be willing to believe it and follow the path that is outlined?

What if I had been instructed by the Almighty to add in a disclaimer that says that even though I am not perfect, you should believe what I wrote anyway?

Why or why not?
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post #44 of 54 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:15 AM
 
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Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
I am glad that this came up because "true" is such a subjective term. It really depends on who is doing the writing. Even the most objective writers will end up putting some opinion in the work. For example, history books would like for you to believe that the Civil War was about slavery. Anyone who has studied deep enough in history or political science knows that isn't the complete truth.

Let's say that I feel divinely inspired to write the word of God this morning. I mean, God is really talking to me. I hear THE voice. I start to write for what seems like days. I come up with 765 pages of some the most inspired writing even written by man. Would you be willing to believe it and follow the path that is outlined?

What if I had been instructed by the Almighty to add in a disclaimer that says that even though I am not perfect, you should believe what I wrote anyway?

Why or why not?
First, I would not believe God spoke to you or anyone else for that matter - even a "Billy Graham" as the Bible is God's Word for us and will not change nor be added to.

Secondly, you are still with the understanding that an imperfect man can't write God's perfect Word with his hand. This limits God in a big way! That would be like saying Jesus must not have been perfect because He was a man too. Obviously, it can be done!

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post #45 of 54 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by four5.0snomore
First, I would not believe God spoke to you or anyone else for that matter - even a "Billy Graham" as the Bible is God's Word for us and will not change nor be added to.

Secondly, you are still with the understanding that an imperfect man can't write God's perfect Word with his hand. This limits God in a big way! That would be like saying Jesus must not have been perfect because He was a man too. Obviously, it can be done!

Lee
This isn't a new addition. It is a whole new bible that has been inspired by God! My perpective has changed since God actually spoke to me... much like the perspective of the authors of the old bible.

God told me to write in this new text that even though this book was written by imperfect man, you should believe it anyway. What's the problem?

Who is limiting God now?
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post #46 of 54 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:30 AM
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Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
I am glad that this came up because "true" is such a subjective term. It really depends on who is doing the writing. Even the most objective writers will end up putting some opinion in the work. For example, history books would like for you to believe that the Civil War was about slavery. Anyone who has studied deep enough in history or political science knows that isn't the complete truth.

Let's say that I feel divinely inspired to write the word of God this morning. I mean, God is really talking to me. I hear THE voice. I start to write for what seems like days. I come up with 765 pages of some the most inspired writing even written by man. Would you be willing to believe it and follow the path that is outlined?

What if I had been instructed by the Almighty to add in a disclaimer that says that even though I am not perfect, you should believe what I wrote anyway?

Why or why not?
I would as long as it lined up with what the Bible already says. As with any religious book that I read today, if it agrees with the Bible then I will accept it. God never changes so His word is going to be the same today as it was 2000-3000 years ago.

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post #47 of 54 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:34 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Originally posted by PWTRTXSS
This isn't a new addition. It is a whole new bible that has been inspired by God! My perpective has changed since God actually spoke to me... much like the perspective of the authors of the old bible.

God told me to write in this new text that even though this book was written by imperfect man, you should believe it anyway. What's the problem?

Who is limiting God now?
Didn't Charles Taze Russell do this with the Book of Mormon? His problem was that it contradicted what the Bible already said.

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post #48 of 54 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Do you people believe that George Washington was the first president of the US? How about Napoleon, was he the great leader everyone says he was? Did Ghengis Khan really even exist? Alexander the Great, I bet he was just a punk kid from the Bronx. After all, all the history books were written by men and I believe that all the stories were just made up to make these people look like great leaders when they were nothing more than bullies.
We have physical evidence of the events these men took part in. More than one culture speaks of those men. Not only that, these events aren't recorded strictly in one book. All events in the bible are located strictly in the bible and nowhere else.
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post #49 of 54 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:42 AM
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All events in the bible are located strictly in the bible and nowhere else.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a009.html
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post #50 of 54 (permalink) Old 03-03-2004, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The major flaw of the Bible

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Didn't Charles Taze Russell do this with the Book of Mormon? His problem was that it contradicted what the Bible already said.
God told me you would come with that puny example. In my book, it mentions Russell and calls him an unenlightened buffoon.

My devinely inspired bible is just like the one you use with a couple of subtle sentence structure changes in the middle and at the end. No big deal.
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