Dose anybody in here really believe in Evolution? - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-18-2004, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Dose anybody in here really believe in Evolution?

Like enough to blow up an chruch or mate with a monkey in Evolution's name?

PS:Im talkin about Maco-Evolution here
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-18-2004, 11:44 PM
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My honest belief is that God created life and over millenia every living thing has evolved to suit their habitat. I believe that over time, Nature forces a creature whether it be human or insect (or something in between) to adapt or become extinct.

These adaptions occur slowly and vary wildly to the point of leading to the different species of birds, reptiles, mammals, etc. With that said, I think it is quite acceptible that both Humans and Apes share the same ancient ancestor and that the split in the genetic tree occured millions of years ago.

I do not believe the story of Genesis as the writers had no understanding of the world or of scientific fact. (Fact as in the Earth is not flat, not the center of the universe and historical evidence of ancient life millions of years before they learned to even record the written word)
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-19-2004, 12:20 AM
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Natural selection does happen but never to a point where there is a transition in species. This is the missing link that I feel will never be found.
To put it very simply a dog can never become a cat, never in a million years no matter what the environment. But a cat may develop over time from a saber tooth tiger to a tiger (so to speak).
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-19-2004, 07:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Josh
Natural selection does happen but never to a point where there is a transition in species. This is the missing link that I feel will never be found.
To put it very simply a dog can never become a cat, never in a million years no matter what the environment. But a cat may develop over time from a saber tooth tiger to a tiger (so to speak).
I do believe speciation dose happen, but not to the extent evolutionist believe. The part of evolution that I dont believe is during natural selection speciation process extra dna is added, which I believe no additional DNA is ever created. The information has always been there, if any, a loss of information occurs.

Last edited by 281R; 02-19-2004 at 08:06 AM.
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-19-2004, 08:00 AM
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To me, it is inconceivable that god created everything only superficially. God would not create a hollow, incomplete universe. Many secular people suggest that science proves that there is no god, but many scientist are finding information that shows the universe was created by design. Gods works are more abundant than our human perceptions can supply information about. God created a universe that is dynamic and harmony, not static and ruled by chaos. Everything we can perceive in our environment, also has a micro and macro level, that takes study to understand it.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 281R
I do believe speciation dose happen, but not to the extent evolutionist believe. The part of evolution that I dont believe is during natural selection speciation process extra dna is added, which I believe no additional DNA is ever created. The information has always been there, if any, a loss of information occurs.
You are correct, New DNA is never 'created'; however, DNA can mutate due to errors in the processes of crossing over, translation, transcription and error checking. This is why there are different strains of viruses which mutate at a higher rate than humans. Take for example HIV, there are strains that are resistant to AZT and will prosper in AZT treated patients. This is why the treatment is not effective, because the DNA mutates so quickly that there will always be some strains that survive and carry on.

Not all mutations are bad, for example:
The mutation that causes sickle cell anemia, also gives the patient an immunity to malaria; subsequently, when a malaria epidemic breaks out, those with sickle cell anemia survive and can produce more offspring.

Natural selection, the mechanism behind evolution, is random. It is only by chance that some organisms develop a mutation that will help them to survive in different conditions. If by chance these conditions become extreme, then they become the favored organisms. Take a look at the studies by the Grants in the Galapagos Islands of finches who survived before and after droughts or heavy periods of rain.

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Forensix
You are correct, New DNA is never 'created'; however, DNA can mutate due to errors in the processes of crossing over, translation, transcription and error checking. This is why there are different strains of viruses which mutate at a higher rate than humans. Take for example HIV, there are strains that are resistant to AZT and will prosper in AZT treated patients. This is why the treatment is not effective, because the DNA mutates so quickly that there will always be some strains that survive and carry on.

Not all mutations are bad, for example:
The mutation that causes sickle cell anemia, also gives the patient an immunity to malaria; subsequently, when a malaria epidemic breaks out, those with sickle cell anemia survive and can produce more offspring.

Natural selection, the mechanism behind evolution, is random. It is only by chance that some organisms develop a mutation that will help them to survive in different conditions. If by chance these conditions become extreme, then they become the favored organisms. Take a look at the studies by the Grants in the Galapagos Islands of finches who survived before and after droughts or heavy periods of rain.
I agree with you except for part of the last paragraph. I dont think you can really compare Galapagos Island finches beak's sizes to mutations b/c the variation seems to be cyclic. While a drought resulted in a slight increase in beak size, the change was reversed when rains returned. So it looks more like pre-built adapability in their DNA.
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 281R
I agree with you except for part of the last paragraph. I dont think you can really compare Galapagos Island finches beak's sizes to mutations b/c the variation seems to be cyclic. While a drought resulted in a slight increase in beak size, the change was reversed when rains returned. So it looks more like pre-built adapability in their DNA.
Actually, their beak sizes didnt increase because of the drought and the lack of smaller seeds. Those that had bigger beaks by random genetic chance just did better and had a higher fitness level; therefore, they could eat bigger seeds and reproduce and their features were passed on. Thos with smaller beaks could not find food to eat and died off =====> Survival of the fittest.

Those that have a variation from mutation that serves better under the enviromental conditions will have higher fitness levels thereby producing more offspring with their features.

Natural selection is always a generation behind, you dont see the effects of it until after the change has occured leaving the fittest behind.

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-23-2004, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Forensix
Actually, their beak sizes didnt increase because of the drought and the lack of smaller seeds. Those that had bigger beaks by random genetic chance just did better and had a higher fitness level; therefore, they could eat bigger seeds and reproduce and their features were passed on. Thos with smaller beaks could not find food to eat and died off =====> Survival of the fittest.

Those that have a variation from mutation that serves better under the enviromental conditions will have higher fitness levels thereby producing more offspring with their features.

Natural selection is always a generation behind, you dont see the effects of it until after the change has occured leaving the fittest behind.
I was meaning speciation in this group happend rapidly, that I agree they all had a common ancestor, but making the assumptions that mutations change their beak sizes, colors, what ever is just an assumption. My stance is that all the genetic information for these birds to adapt and speciate has always been there.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Forensix
You are correct, New DNA is never 'created'; however, DNA can mutate due to errors in the processes of crossing over, translation, transcription and error checking. This is why there are different strains of viruses which mutate at a higher rate than humans. Take for example HIV, there are strains that are resistant to AZT and will prosper in AZT treated patients. This is why the treatment is not effective, because the DNA mutates so quickly that there will always be some strains that survive and carry on.

Not all mutations are bad, for example:
The mutation that causes sickle cell anemia, also gives the patient an immunity to malaria; subsequently, when a malaria epidemic breaks out, those with sickle cell anemia survive and can produce more offspring.

Natural selection, the mechanism behind evolution, is random. It is only by chance that some organisms develop a mutation that will help them to survive in different conditions. If by chance these conditions become extreme, then they become the favored organisms. Take a look at the studies by the Grants in the Galapagos Islands of finches who survived before and after droughts or heavy periods of rain.
Mutations always result in a loss of information. They never are due to new information entering a system. Natural selection does not define mutations per se, but it does define differences in information contained in a species.
Take a field of corn for instance, that is plagued by locusts. These locusts have been decimating the crop over the past 5 years. In an effort to rid himself of the pests the farmer has applied pesticides that seem to have done the job. But low and behold in the following years, despite pesticides being applied, the locusts have come back. Not only have they returned but they have become resistant to the chemicals.
So what happened? Evolution? Mutations?
I don't believe so. The information that was necessary for the locusts to survive the pesticides was always there. It did not just suddenly happen. However, the information was only contained by a very small portion of the population, making it appear as though the whole group had suddenly grown resilient. This population of locusts survived while the majority population died because it did not contain the information.
So you see the information was not added, it was already there. It only needed to be segregated by an extreme condition.

Last edited by Josh; 02-26-2004 at 01:49 AM.
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 12:14 PM
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even as a true believer in the word of God, you have to believe in evolution as well.

I mean we all came from Noah and his family according to the bible.

1 - hundreds of races were created, each very different
2 - thousands of minor changes between people of different climates, etc, exist today
3 - obviously incest is ok
4 - who says things like retardation, downs syndrome, etc, isn't some form of mutant evolution gone wrong?
post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 12:16 PM
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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Big Matt
even as a true believer in the word of God, you have to believe in evolution as well.

I mean we all came from Noah and his family according to the bible.

1 - hundreds of races were created, each very different
2 - thousands of minor changes between people of different climates, etc, exist today
3 - obviously incest is ok
4 - who says things like retardation, downs syndrome, etc, isn't some form of mutant evolution gone wrong?
Your right, I believe in micro-evolution. Just not macro-evolution
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Big Matt
even as a true believer in the word of God, you have to believe in evolution as well.

I mean we all came from Noah and his family according to the bible.

1 - hundreds of races were created, each very different
2 - thousands of minor changes between people of different climates, etc, exist today
3 - obviously incest is ok
4 - who says things like retardation, downs syndrome, etc, isn't some form of mutant evolution gone wrong?
If this is true and we were created in God's image, then how come when Jesus came He didn't look like an ape?

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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 02:26 PM
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created - To cause to exist; bring into being

image - A personification of something specified: That child is the image of good health.

AS you know words do have different meanings.

Who's to say God's image means directly like good, why not personified by God. In other words, we display Godlike characteristics.

Again, you have to believe in some sort of evolutionary process. You can't say, "nope, no such thing, it's around you every day"

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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Big Matt
created - To cause to exist; bring into being

image - A personification of something specified: That child is the image of good health.

AS you know words do have different meanings.

Who's to say God's image means directly like good, why not personified by God. In other words, we display Godlike characteristics.

Again, you have to believe in some sort of evolutionary process. You can't say, "nope, no such thing, it's around you every day"

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As originally posted by my friend Lance:
Quote:
Your right, I believe in micro-evolution. Just not macro-evolution
You say you are atheist. So you know for a fact that there is no God. How do you know? Have you traveled to the far reaches of the universe to find out all truth? Or is it just blind faith?

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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
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mico-evolution is an essential parts of creationism and we do see it happen everyday. Now Maco-evolution is where I disagree and it becomes a belief system
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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-26-2004, 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Jedi
My honest belief is that God created life and over millenia every living thing has evolved to suit their habitat. I believe that over time, Nature forces a creature whether it be human or insect (or something in between) to adapt or become extinct.
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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Big Matt
even as a true believer in the word of God, you have to believe in evolution as well.

I mean we all came from Noah and his family according to the bible.

1 - hundreds of races were created, each very different
2 - thousands of minor changes between people of different climates, etc, exist today
3 - obviously incest is ok
4 - who says things like retardation, downs syndrome, etc, isn't some form of mutant evolution gone wrong?
Yes as MoonDog put it Evolution is part of the Creationist's handbook. But we only apply it as can be proven by nature. Macroevolution has never presented definitive proof of ever happening. It is all conjecture. Where as Microevolution is accepted and proven by both sides of the argument.

BTW, Macroevolution is evolution that is transspeciated. Microevolution is change within the species.

*Your points 1 and 2 are Microevolution not Macro.

*Point 3, I would agree with. Logically because there were no others with which to procreate. Obviously, today we have far more options.

*Point 4 is an outdated, erroneous and defunct proof of Macroevolution. Some Evolutionists use to believe that people that had Downs Syndrome were actually people with traits of a previous, less advanced stage of human evolution—the mongoloid stage. That's why people with Downs Syndrome are sometimes referred to as Mongoloids. That is a term now considered offensive since that theory has clearly been proven incorrect.

BTW, a little snippet of knowledge for you. Incest would not be a problem with a pure gene pool. Adam and Even had a pure pool of genes. Therefore their grandchildren would have experienced absolutely no ill effects as a result of incest. Only after years and years of mutations do we now witness problems. This is easy to understand if you have a working knowledge of genetics.
Take a purebred dog for instance; they generally experience health problems due to inbreeding. A mutt does not encounter the same problems because of a much broader gene pool. Therefore we can conclude before dogs were bred they were much healthier.
So 6000 years ago there was one kind of dog and it was a pure race and healthy. After many years of population grouping and mutations eventually and statistically a pair of dogs with the same mutated gene would reproduce. Now every dog in that bloodline carries on this trait. After 1000s of years and many mutations it is much easier to have a problem when inbreeding, especially when the inbreeding happens over and between several generations.

Got it?

Last edited by Josh; 02-27-2004 at 04:48 AM.
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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Josh
BTW, a little snippet of knowledge for you. Incest would not be a problem with a pure gene pool. Adam and Even had a pure pool of genes. Therefore their grandchildren would have experienced absolutely no ill effects as a result of incest. Only after years and years of mutations do we now witness problems. This is easy to understand if you have a working knowledge of genetics.
Take a purebred dog for instance; they generally experience health problems due to inbreeding. A mutt does not encounter the same problems because of a much broader gene pool. Therefore we can conclude before dogs were bred they were much healthier.
So 6000 years ago there was one kind of dog and it was a pure race and healthy. After many years of population grouping and mutations eventually and statistically a pair of dogs with the same mutated gene would reproduce. Now every dog in that bloodline carries on this trait. After 1000s of years and many mutations it is much easier to have a problem when inbreeding, especially when the inbreeding happens over and between several generations.

Got it?
Agreed.

Josephus, a Jewish historian, wrote, "The number of Adam's children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters."
Now, even though the bible doesn't say how many kids they had, since God commanded them to be "fruitful and multiply" we can only assume that they had many kids during Adams 930 year life.

Now, that being said, each person inherits one gene of each pair from each parent. Genes today contain many mistakes, and these mistakes show up in a variety of ways. The more distantly related parents are, the more likely it is that they will have different mistakes in their genes. And of course, the more closely related two people are, the more likely it is that they will have similar mistakes in their genes. Adam and Eve did not have any genetic mistakes. When they were created, they were physically perfect. Over thousands of years all sorts of genetic mistakes began entering into living things. Now you can say this is because of foods, solar radiation, sicknesses but I choose to believe it came from the fall and sin. Now, Cain along with his other brothers and sisters were in the first generation of children ever born. They would have have received virtually no imperfect genes from Adam or Eve. So Cain could have very easily married a close relative, most likely a sister.

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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Josh

BTW, a little snippet of knowledge for you. Incest would not be a problem with a pure gene pool. Adam and Even had a pure pool of genes. Therefore their grandchildren would have experienced absolutely no ill effects as a result of incest. Only after years and years of mutations do we now witness problems. This is easy to understand if you have a working knowledge of genetics.
Take a purebred dog for instance; they generally experience health problems due to inbreeding. A mutt does not encounter the same problems because of a much broader gene pool. Therefore we can conclude before dogs were bred they were much healthier.
So 6000 years ago there was one kind of dog and it was a pure race and healthy. After many years of population grouping and mutations eventually and statistically a pair of dogs with the same mutated gene would reproduce. Now every dog in that bloodline carries on this trait. After 1000s of years and many mutations it is much easier to have a problem when inbreeding, especially when the inbreeding happens over and between several generations.

Got it?
Definately. Adam and Eve were created "perfect"

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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 10:07 AM
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Definately. Adam and Eve were created "perfect"
What about Lillith(sp)?

And who was Cain's wife? (while we're on the subject)
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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Denny
What about Lillith(sp)?

And who was Cain's wife? (while we're on the subject)
Lilith? (you lost me)


Who was Cain's wife? A relative.

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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 11:18 AM
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
Lilith? (you lost me)


Who was Cain's wife? A relative.
You know... LILITH! http://www.unicorngarden.com/bkshe4.htm

And the Bible never mentions Cain having a wife, but he did have children.



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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denny
You know... LILITH! http://www.unicorngarden.com/bkshe4.htm

And the Bible never mentions Cain having a wife, but he did have children.
Genesis 4:17 Cain "knew" his wife. The bible does mention him having a wife.

Gimmie a minute on Lilith

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post #26 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 11:36 AM
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Where do they get that from? (in reference to the link you gave)

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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 11:50 AM
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Where do they get that from? (in reference to the link you gave)
Apparently, When King James had the Bible translated in "his" version, there were quite a few things left out that didn't jive with his way of thinking. One of the many parts of the Bible lost between Hebrew and English...

And from what I've heard, Lilith was made exactly like Adam (in refrence to size and build) unlike Eve (modern version of woman). Adam had a hard time taking control of the relationship (ie: who's on top... literally). So Lilith was the first banned from the garden.

This is all here-say for me still, but I wanted to get anyone else's input.

As far as Cain's wife, it would have to be a daughter of Adam and Eve, so which one?
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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Denny
Apparently, When King James had the Bible translated in "his" version, there were quite a few things left out that didn't jive with his way of thinking. One of the many parts of the Bible lost between Hebrew and English...

And from what I've heard, Lilith was made exactly like Adam (in refrence to size and build) unlike Eve (modern version of woman). Adam had a hard time taking control of the relationship (ie: who's on top... literally). So Lilith was the first banned from the garden.

This is all here-say for me still, but I wanted to get anyone else's input.
You have to give us some sources of where you get your info from. Who said that it's a translation issue?

Quote:

As far as Cain's wife, it would have to be a daughter of Adam and Eve, so which one?
The bible doesn't give a name.

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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 01:03 PM
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Here's some more reading on "Lilith"... my original source was from a speaker who's name I can't remember at the moment. I was hoping that someone on here had some more input.
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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 02-27-2004, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denny
Apparently, When King James had the Bible translated in "his" version, there were quite a few things left out that didn't jive with his way of thinking. One of the many parts of the Bible lost between Hebrew and English...

And from what I've heard, Lilith was made exactly like Adam (in refrence to size and build) unlike Eve (modern version of woman). Adam had a hard time taking control of the relationship (ie: who's on top... literally). So Lilith was the first banned from the garden.

This is all here-say for me still, but I wanted to get anyone else's input.

As far as Cain's wife, it would have to be a daughter of Adam and Eve, so which one?
I doubt this very seriously Denny. I have read through and studied many different versions of the Bible including the Hebrew Torah. I also have read many of the so called Lost Books of the Bible such as the "The First Book of Adam and Eve", "The Second Book of Adam and Eve", and the "The Secrets of Enoch" and no where does it mention anything at all about Lilith. From what I can tell it is nothing more than a myth that someone dreamed up.

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post #32 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-2004, 06:20 AM
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Genesis Chapter 1-
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.


Genesis Chapter 2-
7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. 8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 10 A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and there it divided and became four rivers. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which flows around the whole land of Cush. 14 And the name of the third river is Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." 18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.




OK, there are clearly two different ways a woman was created in Genesis. Could this be speaking of two different women?
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post #33 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-2004, 07:04 AM
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Denny-

Gen 1 and 2 are complimentary to each other.

Quick answer:

Gen 1 is the view of creation from a Godly view (The big picture) Gen 2 is the view of creation that applies to Adam and Eve (more detailed)

Gen 2:4 marks a break between the two.......Then Ch. 2 goes into more detail about the creation of Eden, Adam and Eve.

In other words:
It's the same chick. Eve

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post #34 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-2004, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denny


As far as Cain's wife, it would have to be a daughter of Adam and Eve, so which one?
She could have been a third cousin for all we know. A common misconception is that Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's first offspring. When in reality Cain and Able were likely born many years after their first child. The Bible only list 3 of their children, Cain, Able and Seth (I think that is all), because they had a significant story.

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