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what do you all think of this theory?

3K views 73 replies 20 participants last post by  Danny 
#1 ·
Picture the first oak tree; the first one ever created. What do you see? I bet if you could go up to that tree and cut off a branch, you would see rings in the cross section of the wood, indicating the age of the tree. Therefore, the tree was created as though it had a history, eventhough it did not. In the same way, maybe God created earth as though it had a history, eventhough it did not; as though it had been around for 4.6 Billion years. It would have all the characteristics, like layers in the crust, areas of Precambrian rock, fossils, the whole thing. A history to study that was not real.

Does that make since? and while were at it, did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
 
#27 ·
Genesis 2 literally reads:
And the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters.
The Hebrew word for deep is tehowm which means abyss (as a surging mass of water) or deep (the main sea or the subterranean water supply). The Hebrew word for water here is mayim which means, you guessed it, water.
 
#29 · (Edited)
DarkWolf said:
looking through Genesis, and applying 2.5 billion years to each day of creation, the scientific evidence does agree with Genesis.
Sure it does Jay, if a person believes in evolution. But where do the interpretations stop? It says that Noah built an ark and it rained for 40 days, did it or did it not? Or did it actually rain for 100 billion years? Moses was in the wilderness for 40 years, but I guess it could have been :eek: , NAW!! Joshua marched around Jericho for 7 days, or was it 17.5 billion, crap I dont know.

Dont take this the wrong way Jay. I am not trying to make fun of you or your beliefs. For me, evolution just doesn't make sense.
 
#30 ·
JKDGabe said:
Moondog, what's your source for the hebrew translation? I just opened e-sword and they use Strong's concordance/dictionary.
I have a Hebrew and Greek Interlinear Bible. It is written in the original languages with a literal translation out to the side and Strong's numbers for reference. I took Hebrew and Greek about 15 years ago, so I know alittle of the language plus I have visited Israel so I learned some there also.

E-sword is a great freebie. :)
 
#31 ·
Everyone seems to be caught up in the idea that "time" actually has to represent a unit of measurement. Time - the fourth dimension - does not have to be a constant for "God" (or Yahweh or Jehovah or whatever). What if....a day to God is simply when he accomplishes something and when he moves to another task...the day changes? Remember the Bible was written by man and therefore will be fallable. I know, I know...there is a passage in the Bible that states something to the effect of the true meaning not changing and etc etc. But with so many translations......do they all say the same thing?....no they don't. And I am almost sure (if God exists) that he doe not measure his time in days, weeks and months. Time has so many measurements. I am sure many will disagree and that's cool because none of us know for sure.
 
#32 ·
Man is fallible yes, but the bible and God is not. God told man what to write so ultimately the bible is true regardless of who wrote down the words. And we are not talking about all these hokey translations going around nowadays. The original Hebrew and Greek texts still contain the true word of God. And it has already been stated many times over that the translations we have today are atleast 95% acurate to every ancient text ever found with no doctrinal changes.
 
#33 ·
MoonDog said:
Sure it does Jay, if a person believes in evolution. But where do the interpretations stop? It says that Noah built an ark and it rained for 40 days, did it or did it not? Or did it actually rain for 100 billion years? Moses was in the wilderness for 40 years, but I guess it could have been :eek: , NAW!! Joshua marched around Jericho for 7 days, or was it 17.5 billion, crap I dont know.

Dont take this the wrong way Jay. I am not trying to make fun of you or your beliefs. For me, evolution just doesn't make sense.
The difference being that the recount of Genesis is God speaking about how he created everything. The story's of Noah, and Moses are human recountings of what we suspect to be historical events (though I still don't believe in a worldwide flood. However a flood of the mediterranean basin is entirely concievable, and during that time... that was the whole world to everyone concerned with the Bible.) Because they're human recountings, they are then governed by our notion of time.

And back to evolution, surely you agree that micro evolution is indeed a scientific fact. You should know from past debates that I too don't agree with macro evolution, and have always based my evolution arguments on micro evolution :D

JKDGabe said:
What specific evidence are you referring to? For evidence of a young earth look here.
The evidence I'm speaking of is that which suggests the universe is ~15 billion years old, and Earth is ~4.6 billion years old.
 
#34 ·
DarkWolf said:
You should know from past debates that I too don't agree with macro evolution, and have always based my evolution arguments on micro evolution :D
Yes, I am aware of this. But if I remember correctly you dont nessesarily believe that God created Adam as a man but that we have a common ancestor with the ape, right? It is my understanding that even though we are about 98% identical in terms of chemical makeup with the ape, if we were to alter our DNA structure any within that 2% range we would have a birth defect. I dont believe that we could have evolved like that and been able to survive.

By the way, I love your agruments, it makes me, and probably others, think. :)
 
#35 ·
Everyone seems to be caught up in the idea that "time" actually has to represent a unit of measurement. Time - the fourth dimension - does not have to be a constant for "God"
I agree that time doesn't have to be the same for God. But now that I've figured out how to use E-Sword...

Yom (yome) is the word used for day in Gen. 1 and can mean either one specific 24 hr period or almost any given period of time. That's much like we've all heard the phrase "back in the day..." obviously that doesn't mean a specific 24 hr time slot.
But Genesis goes on to say "there was evening and there was morning, the second day". The words used for morning (boqer) and evening (ereb) are not subjective, they mean in Hebrew exactly what they mean in English.

What it comes down to is this: do you believe the Bible or not? If you believe in God why is it hard to believe He created the earth etc. in 6 literal days? If it's the scientific evidence just look around, there's good arguments on both sides. Try going to the Glen Rose Creation Evidences Museum, they have some very interesting stuff. They're holding a public dig this summer like they do every year, I'll take a day if I have time and see what they're working on this year.

It is nice to participate in a discussion without even the hint of personal attacks. :)
 
#36 · (Edited)
MoonDog said:
Yes, I am aware of this. But if I remember correctly you dont nessesarily believe that God created Adam as a man but that we have a common ancestor with the ape, right? It is my understanding that even though we are about 98% identical in terms of chemical makeup with the ape, if we were to alter our DNA structure any within that 2% range we would have a birth defect. I dont believe that we could have evolved like that and been able to survive.

By the way, I love your agruments, it makes me, and probably others, think. :)
:D Actually what I believe is that we evolved from an original species that later split, whether through genetic mutation or divine intervention, into ape and man, not that ape's are man's ancestors... more like cousins. We got the good genes :) There's no "missing link", because we split from a common ancestor, rather than evolve from apes. The genetic difference is actually only about .5%, last I read. Much the same with the Horse, Donkey, and Zebra; Dog and Wolf, etc.

That first generation after the split, contained Adam and Eve. Which yes, means that I don't believe Adam and Eve were the only two people on the planet. I believe they were the mother and father of Christianity, but not necissarily of the entire human race.

And, seriously... with people like Ron Perlman, it's hard not to notice just how similar we are to apes :D
 
#37 ·
It is nice to participate in a discussion without even the hint of personal attacks. :)[/QUOTE]


Very true...and good discussion here......
 
#38 ·
Why do so many of you try to make God's word so hgard to understand. God said he made the earth and all on it in 6 days and rested on the 7th. What the heck are all these figures of what might be God's time. Did you folks ever think that he knew who he was communicating to. God is not the auther of confusion. He understands that he must speak to us in a figure of language that we could understand. Dont you think?
 
#39 ·
I get this visual image of you telling your dog all about your trip to six flags.....and he just sits there with his head cocked to the right. Totally clueless of what you just said to him.. Your smart enough to know that your dog dont understand. Dont you think that if God said 6 days that he wanted you to understand that he meant 6 days.
 
#40 ·
And 1 more thing............."and the great beast of the fields".............. It would be my guess that he was speaking about your T-Rex.
 
#43 ·
BlackSnake1996 said:
I get this visual image of you telling your dog all about your trip to six flags.....and he just sits there with his head cocked to the right. Totally clueless of what you just said to him.. Your smart enough to know that your dog dont understand. Dont you think that if God said 6 days that he wanted you to understand that he meant 6 days.
So you don't think he could use language man would comprehend, but that would have a different meaning? Ie: He says "yo, I did this all in 6 days"... does he mean our 6 days, or his 6 days. That's the point of the discussion here. He can say 6 days, and can literally mean 6 days... but that doesn't necissarily mean our 6 days.
 
#44 ·
DarkWolf said:
So you don't think he could use language man would comprehend, but that would have a different meaning? Ie: He says "yo, I did this all in 6 days"... does he mean our 6 days, or his 6 days. That's the point of the discussion here. He can say 6 days, and can literally mean 6 days... but that doesn't necissarily mean our 6 days.
I'm gonna create another thread with this one, but here's another theory I have. Mind you, I am not trying to create a new theology; this is just how I make since of things and I think it is interesting discussion (not an individual trying to create new doctrine)...

This is how I expain God's Omnipresence and his existance in all points in time

I think most would agree that something that is 0-Dimensional is a point. Similarly, something that is 1-Dimensional is a line. A line is created by using an infinte number of points. Something that is 2 Dimensional (a plane) is created by using an infinite number of lines, and something that is 3-D (space) is created using an infiite number of 2-D components (planes). Here's where it get interesting... time is the forth dimension... it is created by sequentially stringing an infinite number of spaces. (the philosopher might argue that time is the only thing that keeps everything from happening all at once, but I think that actually helps my case. And a 5-D world would be created by an infinite number of 4-D's (times)

God's most finite existance is 5-D. In other words he exists at all points, all planes, all space, and all times. Now, beyond my comprehension... God exists in an infinite number of dimensions.

Interestingly, He is in control of everything too. This means that if you throw up a handful of sand and a gust of wind comes by and scatters that sand. God had been waiting there since the begining of time for you to do that so he can send that gust of wind.
 
#46 ·
Yes it r your 6 days. He is taliking to you aint he. Thats my whole point. You make God out to be a real idiot. If he is speaking to you dont you think he'd speak to where you would understand. My goodness people. He knows what your 24 hour day consist of. Made the world in 6 days. ^ 24 hr periods. Your time. He even said so. Sorry..... I just dont remember him saying, "I made the world in 6 days...Well thats 6 days my time".
 
#47 ·
As I said before, He said 6 days. He did not specify whether he was talking about our days or his. It doesn't matter that he's talking to us. Had he specified his 6 days, and then said "I did all this in 6 days, or 15 billion years to you"... man at that time wouldn't begin to fathom how long that expanse of time would be... and it'd also kind of lessen God's "power" in the eyes of man... cause I mean, really... if it takes God 15 billion years to do something, how powerful and omnipotent could he really be?

No, he said 6 days. Whether it's our 6 days, or his, is up for US to interperet. What exactly aren't you understanding about that?

You don't speak of complex ideas regarding time and physics to a child just starting to learn about the world around them. Why would God be any different with man who also was just starting to learn about the world around him? Man understands 6 days, not 15 billion years. God, knowing this, and knowing that our 15 billion years is roughly equivalent to his 6 days, says to man "I did this in 6 days". It clicks. Man understands that God created everything in 6 days. Man doesn't ask whether that's our 6 days, or God's 6 days, because man doesn't understand time, the universe, and other complex ideas that would be needed to carry on such a discussion. We're only just barely starting to scratch the surface of these complex ideas ourselves.
 
#48 ·
OK Jay, you may have alreay answered this question but I would like to ask it again. If man has indeed been around for ~2.5 billion years why is it that only in the last 5,000 years or so has man progressed? I mean, man had to be pretty stupid for 2.45 billion years and not evolve much, all he really did was walk around and say UGH! Then suddenly 5,000 years ago man starts making things, cities, writing, the list goes on and on.
 
#49 ·
The earliest evidence we've seen of civilization is roughly 10,000-15,000 years ago. Prior to that, man was nomadic, never staying in one place. Much like animals. Moving where the food moved. It's not that man suddenly 5,000 years ago started to progress; that is when most of the great civilizations started, however. Egypt, Mayan, Aztec, Greek, China...

The last great ice age ended about 12,000 years ago. I'd suspect survival was the main goal of man, at the time, rather than tinkering with inventions of civilization. Basic hunting and gathering tools, clothing, basic shelter. Whatever they couldn't carry with them during migration, was left behind. They had no time/space for large libraries of written works, artwork of any kind beyond what they could scribble on cave walls. After the ice age ended, it was finally possible for man to settle, and start building civilizations. Meat and fish were no longer the only source of food as man could now produce crops, which allowed man to stay in one place, and still be able to survive year round.

And the estimate for the earliest neanderthal's, is not quite 2.5 billion :) 65 million years, though that estimate is just that, an estimate. The earliest evidence of human like remains is less than 3 million years old. Of course these are based on radiometric carbon dating, which is only accurate to ~50,000 years. When something needs to be dated that shows to be much older, there are a number of various isotope tests that can be conducted to try and reach a "best guess". Essentially taking the median age, between the maximum and minimum results.
 
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