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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-22-2002, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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Any fitness buffs? Got a question about supplements

Not sure if anyone can help, but I'm trying to get lean muscle without building too much mass...basically cut the current muscle I have without adding to it. This means basically burning fat right?

Well, I've been working out (just started again) for 2 weeks, and I run a mile a day. I'm doing high reps with low weight, 6 days a week, 2 different muscle groups per day, and running afterwards...

Here's my question, have you ever heard of Synephrine or L-Carnitine?

A friend of mine (used to work at GNC, like that matters ) Said that these two supplements, when used together will really help to cut you up quickly. Heres why: The Synephrine helps seperate the fat from the muscle, which allows it to be burned/used easier. And the L-Carnitine 'heats you up' and makes you actually burn the fat, sweat more, basically burn more calories with less energy used.

Anyone tried this?

Any other recommendations to get cut without gaining mass? (besides the obvious 'ripped fuel', 'hydroxicut', 'xenadrine', those all have ephedrine or whatever that drug is that is bad for your heart...)

Thanks
Shawn

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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-22-2002, 03:08 PM
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Check out the Pumpin Iron Forum. Lots of info there.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-22-2002, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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no shit...never even noticed that forum, THANKS!

I'll delete it from here and move it...
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-22-2002, 05:26 PM
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There's nothing better for solid fat loss than a clean diet and the right amount of cardio. Too much and you burn away wanted lean mass and not enough means the fat sticks like a spitwad on a chalk board. ECA's are probably the best supplement regarding fat-loss, but if your heart is a concern, there are a few things out there that are less effective, but do help to a degree. They won't really effect the appetite or metabolism like a "fat-burner" will, but supplementing CLA (conjugated linoleic acid), and/or Pyruvic acid (Pyruvate in stores) and/or a good source of EFAs (essential fatty-acids, cap form is the easiest, but there are food sources out there). All things considered, it's alot cheaper to watch what you eat and get off your butt for cardio when you should, but if you've got the cash to spend give 'em a shot.

Last edited by Big A; 05-22-2002 at 05:33 PM.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-22-2002, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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well, they are pretty cheap, less than hydroxi and ripped fuel for sure...

I think like 10 dollars for one and about 25 for the other...

Have you heard of using them or was the guy I talked to just an idiot?

I already run a mile a day, and I just started back into it last monday, so I'll be stepping up to a mile and a half or 2 miles pretty quick, cardio is no problem. I also work on my feet all day, so cardio is the least of my worries.

If I wish to stay lean, but not build too much more mass, what should I eat? I'm not worried about building some mass...but like I learned before (when I used to work out), it's a lot easier for me to get CUT, and THEN build mass...it is harder to get cut after you bulk up, at least for me.

Well, now I'm already bulked up a little, and I need to cut it down, so what type of diet should I consider? High Protein? Low? High carb? low? Etc...I've never really 'dieted' per say, just watched that I didn't eat any sweets or anything, not much else though...so help in the diet area would be great.

Thanks
Shawn

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-22-2002, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnQ
Have you heard of using them or was the guy I talked to just an idiot?
Can't say that I have. I do feel though, that working at GNC gives no validation to his opinion anymore than getting training advice from a skinny guy in a tank top just because you've seen him in a 24 Hour Fitness uniform before. Experience is what I look for in recommendations, especially when the advisor is about to take my hard earned money. Ask him if he has used either and what the net effect was. If he says he hasn't, then ask where he got his info from. Some supplements are more effective than others on the grand scale, and even more specifically will respond differently to your body chemistry than others. If you think the guy is shooting straight then try them for a week or two (or bottle) and see what happens. You'll soon know if it's worth it to you.

I am of the opinion however, that if you are just starting a program, spend a week or two supplement free and use that time too build a solid nutritional base on which to add a little "help". I promise, the supplements won't do jack if you are eating the wrong foods.

Quote:
If I wish to stay lean, but not build too much more mass, what should I eat? I'm not worried about building some mass...but like I learned before (when I used to work out), it's a lot easier for me to get CUT, and THEN build mass...it is harder to get cut after you bulk up, at least for me.

Well, now I'm already bulked up a little, and I need to cut it down, so what type of diet should I consider? High Protein? Low? High carb? low? Etc...I've never really 'dieted' per say, just watched that I didn't eat any sweets or anything, not much else though...so help in the diet area would be great.
Diet is another subjective aspect of fitness, but I find a higher protien diet (50% or more) to be best for me for preserving lean mass while cutting up. I'd say start at around 2000 calories (this is based on you basal metabolic rate depending on your lean body mass) in 6 meals, and no more than 30 grams of fat. See how you feel after a day or two and go from there. If you truthfully listen to your body and are eating often enough, you should be able to find a point where you are eating just as you get hungry again. This takes lots of practice and a keen knowlege of your metabolism, so just be patient and continually and consciously evolve your diet to where you need it. Once you do that successfully the weight will be gone permanently, only to be gained back in small proportion to lean mass when you start bulking again.

Pick up any of the various health magazines for healthy recipies, but a good list of staples is as follows:

chicken breast
lean beef
oatmeal
potatoes (no butter of course)
pasta (post-workout)
assorted veggies
white rice (steamed)
fat-free yogurt
baby-peel carrots (great quick snack)
fat-free frozen yogurt (nice treat on occasion)

Start reading labels and no fast food until you reach your goal, (cheeseless turkey sub from subway is the ONLY fast food I will touch) and stay away from alcohol. I know this is alot to absorb and will take time to implement, just make smart food choices and you will get there.

Last edited by Big A; 05-22-2002 at 09:46 PM.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-22-2002, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
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Well, here's where I'm at diet wise...let me know what you think:

Breakfast: Kelloggs Corn Flakes, non frosted, Fat Free Skim Milk, in an average sized bowl

Lunch: Turkey sandwich with lettuce, no cheese, no mayo, no nothing, just turkey, lettuce, and wheat bread

Dinner: Usually Chicken w/ rice, potatoes (no butter, just pepper), or green beens. If not, I stick to Fish or Pastas, is the pasta a bad idea?

And between the meals, I snack on Corn Chips and salsa usually, and also 'goldfish', they seem to be somewhat low fat...and I try not to eat after 9:00pm, and go to bed before 11:00pm, or just after. Wake up at 7:00am, so I get about 8 hrs of sleep (heard that is important, not sure...)

let me know what you think. And, btw, i'm a non-drinker (underage anyways, but who does that stop?).

Also, is one mile a day not enough cardio? Should I do it everyday or should I pause? My legs are very well off, so they can handle it, it's the rest of me that needs the endurance...

Thanks
Shawn

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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-22-2002, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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BTW, I'm not in bad shape now, about an 8% body fat, it's just all from the waist up...

I dont have a gut or anything, it's evenly dispersed in my upper body. I'm mainly concerned with cutting my upper body (arms are already cut), mainly my back and stomach/chest, also my 'love handles'.

So, if you know of any workouts that are killer for these areas, hit me up...you seem to know wtf you're talking about.

Thanks Again

Shawn

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-23-2002, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnQ
BTW, I'm not in bad shape now, about an 8% body fat, it's just all from the waist up...

I dont have a gut or anything, it's evenly dispersed in my upper body. I'm mainly concerned with cutting my upper body (arms are already cut), mainly my back and stomach/chest, also my 'love handles'.

So, if you know of any workouts that are killer for these areas, hit me up...you seem to know wtf you're talking about.

Thanks Again

Shawn
Well, if you are already at 8%, the last couple pounds are gonna take some extra tweeking and careful calorie counting. Write down all the specific amounts you eat in the day and read the labels to find the exact number of calories you are eating. A handful of this and that, here and there, can add up and it only takes an excess of 50-100 calories to curtail all fat-loss. I'd also swap the Corn flakes for instant oatmeal with a tablespoon of pure honey (if you need the flavor) and I even add a little protien powder to make sure I get enough throughout the day. Get rid of the chips and goldfish all together until you reach your goal. Instead eat fat-free cottage cheese or carrot sticks or an apple, something along those lines. All the extra fat and salt is not what you need right now. I'd say atleast 30 minutes of 70% cardio ATLEAST 4 times a week, but for faster loss bump it to an hour at a time, 4-6 days a week. Watch your cheat day too, a clean diet can put you at the 500 calorie deficit you need for the week, but that one day can blow it all if you eat too much. Indulge in the richer foods you've been craving all week, but keeps the overall calories (albeit a little higher than usual) under wraps.

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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-23-2002, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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What's wrong with the Corn flakes? Just curious...

Also, I cant stand oatmeal...what other cereal could I eat instead of oatmeal? Or possibly some other breakfast? Oatmeal is a last resort...

How many calories should I eat a day? How much protein? Would you recommend a protein shake even if I dont plan on building more mass?

Also, how many carbs? Low right?

Thanks, you've been more than helpful

Shawn

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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-23-2002, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnQ
What's wrong with the Corn flakes? Just curious...

Also, I cant stand oatmeal...what other cereal could I eat instead of oatmeal? Or possibly some other breakfast? Oatmeal is a last resort...
Oatmeal is alot lower on the glycemic index (rate at which a carb is absorbed into the body) and will keep your insulin in check, whereas cornfakes are about as high as you can get, right next to pasta and just a step below sugar. Add the extra fiber it contains to transport fat and aid in digestion, and oatmeal becomes the perfect compliment to a healthy breakfast. Add fresh fruit or a tablespoon of pure honey to make it more palatable for you, but keep in mind this will add calories and too much sugar will negate the insulin leveling aspect of the oatmeal. As for cereal, what I'll suggest still won't have the flavor you get from your cornflakes, but they are a decent alternative to otmeal. Grapenuts, Total, and Raisin Bran are all better choices than corn flakes and will even account for some extra protien over oatmeal because of the milk (I add powdered protien, so that's not an issue).

Quote:
How many calories should I eat a day? How much protein? Would you recommend a protein shake even if I dont plan on building more mass?
I'd say keep protein, at the very minimum, .75 grams per pound of body weight up to 1 gram and tweak it from there (180lbs=135-180g of protein). As for calories, get away with as few as possible with out getting hunger pangs. Divide say 1800 calories between 6 meals and see how you feel. If you get extremely hungry bump it up and if you don't see your weight drop, cut a few more calories and/or do more cardio. I do recommend protien powder simply for the fact that is an easy way to ensure you get enough protien in your diet. It's not always convenient to pack cooked chicken or a can of tuna, but powder in a shaker will go any where with extra servings in a ziplock or straight out of the container.

Quote:
Also, how many carbs? Low right?
Stay away from sugar and saturated fat. Pasta is great after workouts, but stick with fruits and vegetable, potatoes, yams (sweeter, but lower on the glycemic scale than potatoes), and a favorite snack of mine is a fat-free hotdog wrapped in the fat-free cheese of my desire.

As a former food addict, I personally find making my diet as boring and planned as possible helps me stick with it. Food is no longer seen a source of pleasure (except cheat day), it is used as merely as fuel to run a muscle building and fat burning furnace nd I make my choices based on what fuel my body needs at a given moment. Having it planned out leaves me no room to make a bad decision in a moment of weakness, as the good food is already prepared and ready to go, no excuses.

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-23-2002, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I like grape nuts and raisin bran, as well as total, so maybe I'll try one of those next. (I'll at least finish the box of flakes, it wont kill me...)

As for powdered protein, is this basically a 'protein shake' in a shaker that you dont add anything to? I'd prefer to just drink a shake with skim milk in the morning, or before my workout, will this be ok?

Another question:

What can I drink besides milk and water? are ANY sodas ok? or is that a definite no-no? What kinds of juices are best? I like apple, orange, cran-apple, carrot/apple/orange/mango (a juice I buy has all of that in it), etc...Are fruit juices ok or is the sugar too high?

Also, Top Ramen, yea or ney? I know it's pasta which means carbs, right?

Thanks for the help again

Shawn

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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-24-2002, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnQ
Well, I like grape nuts and raisin bran, as well as total, so maybe I'll try one of those next. (I'll at least finish the box of flakes, it wont kill me...)
Nah it won't kill ya.

Quote:
As for powdered protein, is this basically a 'protein shake' in a shaker that you dont add anything to? I'd prefer to just drink a shake with skim milk in the morning, or before my workout, will this be ok?
Mixing with skim is fine and even adding fruit in a blender is okay, but that is more suited for a mass building when you are trying to keep calories high, not when watching everything you put in your mouth. Mix what you want, but log it and account for it in your total daily intake. Like I said before, a little of this and that can add up to major calories over the course of the week.


Quote:
What can I drink besides milk and water? are ANY sodas ok? or is that a definite no-no? What kinds of juices are best? I like apple, orange, cran-apple, carrot/apple/orange/mango (a juice I buy has all of that in it), etc...Are fruit juices ok or is the sugar too high?

Also, Top Ramen, yea or ney? I know it's pasta which means carbs, right?
Being as lean as you already are, the only way to get leaner is to watch EVERY calorie you put into your mouth, as you are essentially at "contest prep" stage and to get any leaner will require sacrifice and a bit of work. There's a reason the pros go on and off season, it's just no fun to diet like you have to to get to 5-6%. Stay away from anything but skim milk and water as cokes and juices are loaded with excess calories and sugar. If you want to drink juice after a workout that's fine, but put the calories on your daily tally and eat some protien with for balance. Those blessed souls that stay there year round eat near perfect and do enormous amouts of cardio during the week such as bicyclists, speed skaters, and the few "weekend warriors" that train during the week as well. Unless you are genetically gifted with a superfast metabolism, don't expect to get down to 6% and stay there, especially if you eventually want to put on more mass. Realistically shoot for a goal, say July and August, and then start eating again comre the colder weather, keeping in mind the healthy habits you picked up during the summer to keep from gaining TOO much in the off-season.

Last edited by Big A; 05-24-2002 at 09:45 AM.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-27-2002, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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thanks for the help again...

I plan to bump my cardio up to 40+ mins, 5 days a week..mostly running, but with a little bit of basketball and racquetball possible.

And this coming week I plan to watch and tally the calories just to make reference...

And, BTW, I hate those high metabolism fools...a jealous hate, hehe...my friend eats about 6 times a day, and lets say at a McDonalds visit, he orders 3 big macs and a 9 pc nugget, and he is a lean mass machine, wtf? lol

What's a good way to up your metabolism? Just eat right, but eat more of it to train your body?

Thanks again

Shawn

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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-27-2002, 11:56 PM
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supplements

try some t-200 and deca. works very well!!
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-28-2002, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnQ I plan to bump my cardio up to 40+ mins, 5 days a week..mostly running, but with a little bit of basketball and racquetball possible.

And this coming week I plan to watch and tally the calories just to make reference...
Sounds like a plan!

Quote:
And, BTW, I hate those high metabolism fools...a jealous hate, hehe...my friend eats about 6 times a day, and lets say at a McDonalds visit, he orders 3 big macs and a 9 pc nugget, and he is a lean mass machine, wtf? lol
I know the feeling, just take solace in knowing that (drugs aside) it's harder and more expensive for him to gain solid lean-mass.

Quote:
What's a good way to up your metabolism? Just eat right, but eat more of it to train your body?
Well aside from stimulants, eating often and cardio exercise in the morning are two good ways of bumping up your metabolism during th day.

Last edited by Big A; 05-30-2002 at 02:35 PM.
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-28-2002, 09:20 PM
 
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just dont stop lifting or you will have trouble retaining what mass you do have.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-29-2002, 09:29 AM
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