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post #1 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Where to start for new TV?

I decided to replace my old 96 Sony with an HDTV unit. I went to BestBuy just to look and left with more questions. Need some good leads to research a 40-55 inch set. What are your thoughts and opinions on the following:

Is plasma the way to go vs. LCD or DLP?
Who are your top three Manufacturers? It looked like Samsung & Sony are decent.
I'm assuming 1080p is the route to go for HDTV's.
Is 120Hz important to have, and what's a good contrast ratio (16,000:1)
Whats the importance of HDMI, and what is it?

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post #2 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 11:34 AM
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Just a quick overview.

DLP is the way to go... the bulb will go out after several hundred hours use, but is replaceable. This technology is unbelievable. Do some research.

1080p is only necessary for Blue-ray dvd's with a Blue-ray DVD player. You will only be able to get a 1080i contrast ratio through a HD TV input from your cable or satallite provider.

I prefer either Samsung or Mitsubishi.... Their diamond series is awesome! I have a 62" Mitsubishi Diamond series and am more than happy with it. Although it is only 1080i.

And an HDMI cable is the proper "high performance" cable to use to be able to attain true 1080 resolution from what I understand.

Anyone else chime in.... Oh.... And get a bigger TV than the one you originally decide on, you will thank me later!!

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post #3 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 12:50 PM
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First I prefer LCD over DLP or Plasma, but all three are good. With DLP you will have to change the bulb, I would rather not have to mess with that.

HDMI is the technology that digitally transfers video and audio from your player of chocie (DVD, BluRay, etc.) to your TV or to your Sorround Sound System, and from there to your TV. HDMI is the best possible connector and technology. BluRay and HD DVD will only transfer their data via HDMI. Do not spend alot of money on cables, use www.monoprice.com

1080p is the highest possible resolution at the moment, all TV and regular defnition DVD's are at lower resolutions than this. BluRay and HD DVD players will play at 1080p. The difference between 1080i and 1080p can be hard to see in smaller TV's 37" and below. If you want something you are going to keep for many years, i recommend getting a 1080p set as that is the future... just know that that the moment most of what you will use your TV for will not use 1080p unless all you do is play BluRay movies.

Manufacturers are varied, I recommend you check them out and see what looks the best to you. I like both Sony and Samsung, but am very satisfied with my Vizio, it was almost half the price and the picture, to me, looked almost just as good as the rest.

Contrast ratio, the higher the better. You want at least 10,000:1.

I recommend you logon to http://www.avsforum.com/ and read allot. They have some very knowledgeable people on there.

Oh, and I can't stress it enough, do no buy any cables at best buy, you'll just get ripped off. Buy them from www.monoprice.com

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post #4 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 01:35 PM
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I have a LCD and a DLP.

DLP is nice because it is cheap and still looks great. The downside is there can be a slight delay when playing video games (my lcd doesn't have any issues, dlp barely does). My DLP has 2000 hours on the bulb an no problems so far. Another downside is that the picture will get darker when viewed from angles (horizontal and vertical). It bothers me a little because if I'm at the kitchen table and looking into the living room the picture is considerably darker.

I like the LCD because it has no delay (that i notice anyways, depends on brand I guess). I had it wall mounted before but now it's on a stand, I like having that option. Also, I can view it from any angle without any noticeable difference in brightness. It costs a bit more but I prefer the LCD.

btw both are samsungs. DLP: HL-S5086W LCD: LN-T4061f

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post #5 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Narrowed it down to these two. LCD vs Plasma. What do you guys think or which would you get?

LCD: SAMSUNG LNT4669
46" 1080P 120Hz LCD TV
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/542...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

or

PLASMA:PANASONIC TH-50PZ77U
50" 1080P PLASMA HDTV
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/539...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

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post #6 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ-95GT
Narrowed it down to these two. LCD vs Plasma. What do you guys think or which would you get?

LCD: SAMSUNG LNT4669
46" 1080P 120Hz LCD TV
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/542...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

or

PLASMA:PANASONIC TH-50PZ77U
50" 1080P PLASMA HDTV
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/539...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Personally, I'd go with the LCD. Personal preference though. I don't like a single plasma I've seen yet. Plasmas are going to have a glossy screen. LCD will not. If you've got a lot of light coming in, I'd go with the LCD. All plasmas have some type of built in anti glare, but IMO they're worthless and don't work anywhere near as well as advertised.
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post #7 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ-95GT
Narrowed it down to these two. LCD vs Plasma. What do you guys think or which would you get?

LCD: SAMSUNG LNT4669
46" 1080P 120Hz LCD TV
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/542...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

or

PLASMA:PANASONIC TH-50PZ77U
50" 1080P PLASMA HDTV
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/539...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG
LCD for sure. Outpost is cheaper than Amazon, good find.

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post #8 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bcoop
Personally, I'd go with the LCD. Personal preference though. I don't like a single plasma I've seen yet. Plasmas are going to have a glossy screen. LCD will not. If you've got a lot of light coming in, I'd go with the LCD. All plasmas have some type of built in anti glare, but IMO they're worthless and don't work anywhere near as well as advertised.
Im going to have to agree...well other than not finding a plasma that I like...I have a 60 LG plasma. I dont have a lot of light in the room so plasma works well for me. Of the two listed above, Id go with the LCD just because I prefer Samsung

1080p isnt a necessity nor do I see any broadcast stations going 1080p in the near future. Unless you have a blu-ray or HDDVD player..its kinda a waste.

My favorite brands are: LG, Samsung, Sony in particular order.

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post #9 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ-95GT
Narrowed it down to these two. LCD vs Plasma. What do you guys think or which would you get?

LCD: SAMSUNG LNT4669
46" 1080P 120Hz LCD TV
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/542...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

or

PLASMA:PANASONIC TH-50PZ77U
50" 1080P PLASMA HDTV
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/539...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Panasonic Plasma FTW.

Trust me or not...

The lcd has 120 hz frame rate with 8 ms refresh times

the plasma is 400 hz with less than 1 ms refresh.

I hate Samsung btw. Go to NRH bestbuy, look through all the openbox (returns/serviced items) easily, EASILY, 80-90% are samsung.

I don't own one, but just letting you know. I have also seen 2 for sure, 71 series sammies that were jacked. One had a Blue bar about 4-5 inches in width that took up the entire height of the screen. AND THATS ON SAMSUNGS HIGHER MODEL.

But believe what you will. People I sell plasma's to don't come back looking for something better.

PS come to the best buy in NRH tomorrow before 3 pm and ask for me (Brandon) and I will personally show you motion blur on a 71 series samsung, and on a XBR4-5 (sony's best) and I will show you the lack of blur on a panasonic plasma.




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post #10 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by KOZMO
Panasonic Plasma FTW.

Trust me or not...

The lcd has 120 hz frame rate with 8 ms refresh times

the plasma is 400 hz with less than 1 ms refresh.

I hate Samsung btw. Go to NRH bestbuy, look through all the openbox (returns/serviced items) easily, EASILY, 80-90% are samsung.

I don't own one, but just letting you know. I have also seen 2 for sure, 71 series sammies that were jacked. One had a Blue bar about 4-5 inches in width that took up the entire height of the screen. AND THATS ON SAMSUNGS HIGHER MODEL.

But believe what you will. People I sell plasma's to don't come back looking for something better.


You must be a first, because I've never read/heard of anyone being unhappy with a Samsung TV. They're one of the top sellers for a reason.
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post #11 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:47 PM
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You must be a first, because I've never read/heard of anyone being unhappy with a Samsung TV. They're one of the top sellers for a reason.

Yea, advertising.

Go to a best buy and count the open boxes and tell me how many are samsung, and I'm willing to bet they are nearly all LCD.




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post #12 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:49 PM
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Hell, the Panasonic is cheaper and BIGGER!!!

Also, when cnet dropped their 5 best tv's they've ever reviewed list,
not one lcd won a category that both the LCD's and PLAMAS fit in.

Only the size ranges that plasma aren't offered in.

Just 32" - LCD size ONLY (samsung lnt-3253)
and 43"-47" LCD size ONLY (sony 46" XBR4)

Catgorys where both applied plasma will win every time aside of a glare issue.




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post #13 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by KOZMO
Yea, advertising.

Go to a best buy and count the open boxes and tell me how many are samsung, and I'm willing to bet they are nearly all LCD.


Ok. Advertising has nothing to do with visual appeal.


My Samsung's picture quality is hands down, better than any other tv I've ever seen. Everyone comments on it, that has been to my house.



The fact that Samsung sells more would explain why they might have more returned units, to someone with common sense. That's the nature of the beast.


I'm just saying. I'm sold for life on Samsung's tv. Not to mention their other appliances, as well.
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post #14 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:00 PM
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Ok. Advertising has nothing to do with visual appeal.


My Samsung's picture quality is hands down, better than any other tv I've ever seen. Everyone comments on it, that has been to my house.



The fact that Samsung sells more would explain why they might have more returned units, to someone with common sense. That's the nature of the beast.


I'm just saying. I'm sold for life on Samsung's tv. Not to mention their other appliances, as well.

Sony sells just as much as Samsung, yet have a lower return rate. From what I've seen

What tv do you have setting next to your Sammy at home? Do you have a upconverting receiver? Do the people that compliment you own a HDTV themselves? Do you bring your tv with you when you look at new tv's? How do you exactly know it looks better?

And to ask how advertising helps selling... well I'm not even going to comment there.

You do know they dropped a SHIT TON of money to be the "official tv of the NFL" yet, all of there samsung NFL commercials are in slow mo due to motion blur.

Do you also know what color banding is?

And when you say "visual appeal" To most people, olivia's and vizio's "look fine" and sell more than samsung. Does that make them a better brand or tv than your samsung.

I have a $899 insignia plasma that people compliment me on ALL the time, does that make it better? Heelllllzzzzz no.




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post #15 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:02 PM
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Sony sells just as much as Samsung, yet have a lower return rate. From what I've seen

What tv do you have setting next to your Sammy at home? Do you have a upconverting receiver? Do the people that compliment you own a HDTV themselves? Do you bring your tv with you when you look at new tv's? How do you exactly know it looks better?

And to ask how advertising helps selling... well I'm not even going to comment there.

You do know they dropped a SHIT TON of money to be the "official tv of the NFL" yet, all of there samsung NFL commercials are in slow mo due to motion blur.

Do you also know what color banding is?


You're fucking dense, but I guess that's why you work at Best Buy.


That's all I'm even going to say.
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post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:03 PM
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You're fucking dense, but I guess that's why you work at Best Buy.


That's all I'm even going to say.

??? Im dense?




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post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:04 PM
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??? Im dense?


That's my nice way of saying that you're retarded.
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post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:12 PM
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lol @ you guys...

Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one. The best comparison anyone can make is having 2 tvs side by side with the same content through the same quality player and cables.

I have to admit though...just cause Kozmo works at Best buy doesnt mean he knows shit. I argue with this chick in my class over stuff like this all the time. She knows as much as bust buy's sales demos has taught her. Her knowledge is sales knowledge..not the truth

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post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:12 PM
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That's my nice way of saying that you're retarded.

Nice, no valid points except a "you're retarded."

Well done sir, you have won the debate.




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post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:13 PM
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She knows as much as bust buy's sales demos has taught her. Her knowledge is sales knowledge..not the truth
That's more or less what I was getting at.....
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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:13 PM
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lol @ you guys...

Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one. The best comparison anyone can make is having 2 tvs side by side with the same content through the same quality player and cables.

I have to admit though...just cause Kozmo works at Best buy doesnt mean he knows shit. I argue with this chick in my class over stuff like this all the time. She knows as much as bust buy's sales demos has taught her. Her knowledge is sales knowledge..not the truth

I wouldn't be claiming to know if I didn't fell I did. I agree, there are TONS of people at best buy I wouldn't buy a tv from or other things for that matter. But I happen to be an enthusiasts you could say and enjoy this stuff.




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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:14 PM
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Nice, no valid points except a "you're retarded."

Well done sir, you have won the debate.


Since I have to spell it out for you, hold the fuck on.
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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:16 PM
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That's more or less what I was getting at.....

Oh, In that case, sure, buy the 69F 46" LCD for MORE and buy the PSP, Monster m1000 series cable, and fuckin be done.




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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:19 PM
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1080p is good. period.

lcd is a very versatile display. especially great if you want to hook up a computer.
120hz sucks and is a waste of money. sammy lcds are good despite what kozmo thinks. use slick deals and dont overpay.

plasma is the way to go for best picture reproduction on movies and tv. panasonic pricewise. imo most of the panasonics look ugly, but i prefer the commercial series displays they make. nice and cheap and look great. who needs speakers and atsc tuners?
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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:23 PM
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1080p is good. period.

lcd is a very versatile display. especially great if you want to hook up a computer.
120hz sucks and is a waste of money. sammy lcds are good despite what kozmo thinks. use slick deals and dont overpay.

plasma is the way to go for best picture reproduction on movies and tv. panasonic pricewise. imo most of the panasonics look ugly, but i prefer the commercial series displays they make. nice and cheap and look great.

I'm not trying to say Samsung sucks.

The man asked if he should get one of two products. I told him a downside of one of the products THAT I KNEW OF from samsung. If I had a crap load of panny's coming back I would say the same thing. If the debate was between Sony or Samsung, I would make the same claims. I still suggest Sony or Samsung for LCD for customers all the time. They have better picture than many LCD's out there. I just have seen a few problems and felt I'd mention it.

Sorry I stepped on Samsung tv owner's toes and told them something they didn't want to fucking hear.




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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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From what I've read, Sammy's and Sony's top the LCD C/B list. The Pioneer's and Panny's top the Plasma list. The Panny in the link has a matted screen which supposedly cuts out any reflection issues. I did read several bad reviews on the Sammy's which makes me think it might be a crap shoot.

The problem I have is the alleged shorter expected life of a Plasma vs LCD. I was set on buying the plasma untill two seperate sales people mentioned the phosphorus (sp?) going bad after X amount of hours.

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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CJ-95GT
From what I've read, Sammy's and Sony's top the LCD C/B list. The Pioneer's and Panny's top the Plasma list. The Panny in the link has a matted screen which supposedly cuts out any reflection issues. I did read several bad reviews on the Sammy's which makes me think it might be a crap shoot.

The problem I have is the alleged shorter expected life of a Plasma vs LCD. I was set on buying the plasma untill two seperate sales people mentioned the phosphorus (sp?) going bad after X amount of hours.
Hours on a LCD Bulb: Approx. 60k hours (20+ years 7-8 hour days)
Plasmas are measured on half lifes: 60K hours to half-life or half brightness.

Panasonic has simulated 120,000 hours.

Both should last you plenty of time. The plasma short coming is usually stories from older televisions.




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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by momo stallion
120hz sucks and is a waste of money.
Really... I thought 120hz was the remedy to motion blur/TBE common on the 60hz LCDs.

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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by KOZMO

What tv do you have setting next to your Sammy at home?
None.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOZMO
Do you have a upconverting receiver?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by KOZMO
Do the people that compliment you own a HDTV themselves?
Some don't, but most do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KOZMO
Do you bring your tv with you when you look at new tv's?
No. Doesn't change anything. They have comparable models sitting on the shelf.

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Originally Posted by KOZMO
How do you exactly know it looks better?
Because it looks better to me. My eyes tell me it looks better. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but that was a stupid question.

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Originally Posted by KOZMO
And to ask how advertising helps selling... well I'm not even going to comment there.
I think if you were to take a reading comprehension class, and re read my post, you'll find that I wasn't asking how advertising helps selling. Just a hunch, though.



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Originally Posted by KOZMO
You do know they dropped a SHIT TON of money to be the "official tv of the NFL" yet, all of there samsung NFL commercials are in slow mo due to motion blur.
I can count the number of times I've had blurring on my tv on one hand.

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Originally Posted by KOZMO
Do you also know what color banding is?

A little bit, but not in depth. Why?

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Originally Posted by KOZMO
And when you say "visual appeal" To most people, olivia's and vizio's "look fine" and sell more than samsung.

I'm not most people. Vizio is a decent buy for the money. When I'm talking about visual appeal, I'm talking about picture quality, how crisp and clear it is, the boldness of the colors, etc.
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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:29 PM
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From what I've read, Sammy's and Sony's top the LCD C/B list. The Pioneer's and Panny's top the Plasma list. The Panny in the link has a matted screen which supposedly cuts out any reflection issues. I did read several bad reviews on the Sammy's which makes me think it might be a crap shoot.

The problem I have is the alleged shorter expected life of a Plasma vs LCD. I was set on buying the plasma untill two seperate sales people mentioned the phosphorus (sp?) going bad after X amount of hours.

The coating, AR I think is what they called it, does help, but I think it seems to make the picture look hazey. I think panasonic felt the same way too, because they don't even make new models with that coating.




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post #31 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:35 PM
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LCD all the way hands down, I've been researching this to death for the past year. I personally bought a 56' Toshiba DLP HDTV b/c of the excellent deal I got at the time and LCD's were significantly higher in price. While I love my DLP, I do realize that LCD is definitely better and it seems the market is going that way (you might have noticed looking in Best Buy they have an entire wall dedicated to LCD's and a much smaller section for DLP and Plasma). I've never liked Samsung in general until recently. Samsung's LCD HDTV's are awesome and compare to Sony in my opinion. My dad was in the market to buy 2 new LCD's just after Christmas and it was between the Samsung and the Sony LCD's and apparently the Samsung had a slightly sharper picture (I was surprised too). I now have a new found respect for Samsung.

Regarding the HDMI inputs, personally I require at least 3 (1 for dvd player, 1 for xbox 360 or game console of your choice, and also 1 for cable box) unless you are running everything through an audio receiver which would mean that must have at least 3 HDMI inputs and outputs. BTW HDMI is 1 cable connection for the best video and audio, you will no longer have the yellow video and the red and white audio connections.

Lengthly, but hope it helps. Good Luck!

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post #32 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:36 PM
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Am I the only one that thinks all DLP tv's look hazy or foggy? I haven't seen one yet that I would be 100% happy with picture quality.
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post #33 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcoop


1.No. Doesn't change anything. They have comparable models sitting on the shelf.



2.Because it looks better to me. My eyes tell me it looks better. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but that was a stupid question.



3.I think if you were to take a reading comprehension class, and re read my post, you'll find that I wasn't asking how advertising helps selling. Just a hunch, though.






4. I can count the number of times I've had blurring on my tv on one hand.




5. A little bit, but not in depth. Why?




I'm not most people. Vizio is a decent buy for the money. When I'm talking about visual appeal, I'm talking about picture quality, how crisp and clear it is, the boldness of the colors, etc.
1. So, they have your EXACT model on the floor when you compare others? If not, then it does change everything.

2. You mean to tell me your eyes thinks something you feel that you made a good, smart buy on and paid hard earned money looks better AND use an UPCONVERT RECEIVER ... EVEN when your not comparing it side by side with the other product doesn't matter? ...stupid comment

3. You're right there, but thats not really the point anyway

4. You are probably just watching content that you don't experience blur on.

5. LCD's do it quite often.

I can show you examples of all these if you were to come in.




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post #34 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2003SSVT
you might have noticed looking in Best Buy they have an entire wall dedicated to LCD's and a much smaller section for DLP and Plasma

Its called the HEET wall and it contains both LCD and PLASMA arranged by size.




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post #35 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:44 PM
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I doubt it, since I bought it a few years ago. They've got direct derivatives of it, I'm sure. Regardless, they do have similar models when it comes to features and benefits.

2. No. I mean I know what looks better to me, when looking at tvs side by side in the store, dumbass. I know what looks good, and what looks like shit TO ME. Jesus, you are fucking retarded.

3. I'm always right, get used to it.

4. I play PS3, and watch Blu Ray movies. Still, no blur. But keep thinking that if it makes you feel better.
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post #36 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ-95GT
Really... I thought 120hz was the remedy to motion blur/TBE common on the 60hz LCDs.

i watched a few bluray movies on 3 different 1080p 120hz sets. none of them looked like movies anymore. spiderman looked like a damn documentary or the making of spiderman rather than the movie. its hard to explain but im not the only one thats noticed this. there are lots of reviews out there asking why their tv looks fake.

i watched this on the most expensive 1080p lcd sony makes and it looked horrid. i was shocked to say the least.
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post #37 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:47 PM
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I helped set up a buddy's Samsung 1080p LCD, and the picture wasn't nearly as nice as my big DLP. Apples and oranges, I guess, since it sounds like the op wants something to hang on the wall. I'm a big fan of DLP for the size/money ratio, and the fact that the picture is amazing. That said, I have two rooms that really need a flat panel. To my eyes, plasmas look better than LCDs. It just seems like large (60+") 1080p plasmas still aren't very affordable.

And I may change my tune about the DLP when my bulb needs to be replaced. But as far as LCD vs plasma, who cares if either one doesn't last 10+ years? With the way technology changes, any half-assed A/V guy is going to upgrade at least once or twice by then anyway.
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post #38 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcoop
Am I the only one that thinks all DLP tv's look hazy or foggy? I haven't seen one yet that I would be 100% happy with picture quality.
Next time you are over, I'll give you a demo. Last time we never got out of the PS3 menu screen.
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post #39 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jluv
Next time you are over, I'll give you a demo. Last time we never got out of the PS3 menu screen.


hahahaha. True that!
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post #40 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcoop

No. I mean I know what looks better to me, when looking at tvs side by side in the store, dumbass. I know what looks good, and what looks like shit TO ME. Jesus, you are fucking retarded.

Hope that makes you feel better ass hat




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post #41 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KOZMO
Hope that makes you feel better ass hat


Well, what do you expect when you didn't understand it the first time?
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post #42 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-22-2008, 10:10 PM
 
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try frys
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