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Unread 10-07-2002, 01:14 AM   #1
92GreenMonster
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Converting non-roller 351W to roller...

I've found some non-roller 351W shortblocks, but no rollers. What is involved (parts and $$$) in getting a roller cam to work in one of these blocks?
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Unread 10-07-2002, 01:16 AM   #2
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fuck the bullshit... go solid roller... just run a street grind, and you'll be sittin' pretty... Comp makes some really nice sticks.

Forrest
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Unread 10-07-2002, 01:34 AM   #3
92GreenMonster
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Quote:
Originally posted by Forrest
fuck the bullshit... go solid roller... just run a street grind, and you'll be sittin' pretty... Comp makes some really nice sticks.

Forrest
I may do that, it just depends on what I'd have to change in the valvetrain and how much all that stuff costs. I still haven't bought anything, so I'm still in the very early stages of this project. My dad checked out some shortblocks at Bishops, but they were solid lifter blocks (no solid OR hydraulic roller). Just curious if there was a way to use some kind of roller cam in one of these (or where to get a roller block).
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Unread 10-07-2002, 02:11 AM   #4
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I was under the impression that you couldn't run a roller lifter with a non-roller block without modifying it. I thought that included either hydraulic OR solid lifters. Did I miss something?
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Unread 10-07-2002, 02:13 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by INTP
I was under the impression that you couldn't run a roller lifter with a non-roller block without modifying it. I thought that included either hydraulic OR solid lifters. Did I miss something?
No, you didn't miss anything. I'm trying to find out what the necessary modifications to the non-roller block are.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 02:29 AM   #6
bobs94formula
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You can either run a retrofit solid roller with solid roller retrofit lifters, or you can run a retrofit hyd roller with retrofit hyd roller lifters.
You can also get the lifter spyder from a 302 so you can use stock type hyd roller lifters, but you would need a small base circle cam to do this. You would need to drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley to hold the spyder in for this way also.

I know the retrofit lifters are a little more expensive than the stock type lifters. I dunno if the small base circle cam and minute amount of machine work equals out the cost of each though. Hope this helps some.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 02:30 AM   #7
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Then I'm just confused by the comment "Fuck the bullshit... go solid roller..."

You'd still need to modify the block to run solid roller then?
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Unread 10-07-2002, 02:32 AM   #8
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No modifing the block with the retrofit cams....
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Unread 10-07-2002, 02:35 AM   #9
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sorry, we were posting at the same time, it appears. I get it now.

[edit]thanks, btw.[/edit]

Last edited by INTP; 10-07-2002 at 02:37 AM.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 02:43 AM   #10
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Anytime.

The main difference is the price of the retrofit lifters are around $250, I think. Which is a little more expensive than the stock type lifters.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 02:49 AM   #11
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You could run a old school solid flat tappet.

Just run a mild street roller and be done with it. Comp makes them as small as 220@050.

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Unread 10-07-2002, 06:50 AM   #12
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I agree, you will make more power for minimal effort, plus its cheaper.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 07:13 AM   #13
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I like the XR274R from Comp. It's a solid roller 236/242 dur @.050" .602/.608 lift and 110* LSA. I was figuring on running something around this size when I build my 418. It'll make good power plus keep the revs under 6,500 RPM's.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 11:24 AM   #14
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well, I would probably go with a hydraulic flat tappet for cost reasons, BUT if you absolutely want a roller, I would go solid... you don't need to do any modifications to the block, and the money you save by not having to do the block mods will go towards your cam/lifters... there are plenty of street grinds that don't require exotic valvesprings...

besides, a solid cam is MUCH easier to set up at the rockers... setting lash takes two seconds, setting pre-load on a hydraulic is fucking annoying...

Forrest
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Unread 10-07-2002, 01:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
[i]
besides, a solid cam is MUCH easier to set up at the rockers... setting lash takes two seconds, setting pre-load on a hydraulic is fucking annoying...

Forrest [/b]
Not really...hyd lifter might be harder to set than solid but once they are set you done. Adjusting solid lifter is not a big deal on a car with gluttering free engine. Most applications will require the removal of the upper manifold, buch of stuff on the passenger side (blower app) just to gain access to the valve covers. This might become annoying...

Setting preload on hyd lifter is not a big deal...spinning the pushrod between your fingers until the pushrod start to drag. At this point tighten the rocker in 1/8 to 1/2 turn increment. This will preload the lifter approximately .005"-.020"

Cant beat the sound of a solid lifter motor though.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 04:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by 92GreenMonster


No, you didn't miss anything. I'm trying to find out what the necessary modifications to the non-roller block are.

I didn't read all the threads, but you can buy the link bar type roller lifters and use them with no problems. They cost anywhere between 300-350.00 dollars.

Oh and the power difference between a solid lifter and a hydraulic lifter is night and day. The solid will blow the shit out of a hydraulic lifter. If I'm not mistaken the solid with be the same cost if not cheaper than going roller.

Last edited by SSMAN; 10-07-2002 at 04:44 PM.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 05:14 PM   #17
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Bottom line...

Solid roller will blow the piss out of just about any other cam type.

Reliable springs for a solid roller setup of any significant lift are going to cost about $300 for the springs, retainers and keepers. I'm talking about some pacaloy springs here boys, not some junk.

Cam itself $269 or so, just like a hydraulic cam

The lifters...I like the Crower lifters, so does KC. They are $330 a set, no mods necessary to the block.

So for a nice solid roller setup you are talking about $900 or so. You could sping that setup to 7000 RPM with a 28 oz. balance but then the stock windsor rod is going to be an issue.

I can convert a vintage windsor block to use the OEM style 5.0 hydrualic roller lifter for about $2 as long as you have a spider plate from your 5.0. These lifters cost about $100 new and will require a reduced base circle cam...about $269 for the cam and a $150 for the spring package.

You can use the "drop in" style hydraulic roller lifter, these are about $269 or $300 a set depending on which brand. Requires no modifications to the block. Cam costs about the same $269, springs are going to run the same $150.

So pick your poison...
Reduced base circle hydraulic roller for about $520
"Drop in" hydraulic roller for about $680
Solid roller for about $900
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Unread 10-07-2002, 05:50 PM   #18
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I'm just saying, if you're building it as a street/daily driver type, the cam profile and valve springs you'll be using will be fine, and you won't have to check lash... hell with a solid roller you shouldn't need to check lash at all anyhow except to verify that there's no need to check it! LOL!

it takes about 1/10 the time to set solids versus a hydraulic setup.

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Unread 10-07-2002, 06:03 PM   #19
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Al, do you know off-hand what drop in retro-hyd roller lifters go for near $300 a set? The Cranes I've been eyeballing are $400, normally...

Thanks!

Chris
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Unread 10-07-2002, 08:15 PM   #20
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This is more confusing than I had thought!

bobs 94 formula:


You can either run a retrofit solid roller with solid roller retrofit lifters, or you can run a retrofit hyd roller with retrofit hyd roller lifters.


What do you mean by 'retrofit?' I've never heard of retrofit lifters or retrofit cams.


You can also get the lifter spyder from a 302 so you can use stock type hyd roller lifters, but you would need a small base circle cam to do this. You would need to drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley to hold the spyder in for this way also.


What is a small base circle cam?

I have all the stock stuff from my 302, so I'd like to use as much of that as possible.

I thought that you can't use any roller cam in a non roller block because there is nothing to keep the lifters from rotating in the lifter bores, and there isn't a way to install lifter retainers (if that's what they're called... the things that go on the block between each set of lifters). I don't want to be limited in cam profile selection because of the block I use.

mike89lx:

You could run a old school solid flat tappet.


That's the kind where the lifters are basically just a solid cylinder right? I didn't want one of those because I'd have limited cam choices compared to what I could run with roller lifters.

Forrest:

well, I would probably go with a hydraulic flat tappet for cost reasons, BUT if you absolutely want a roller, I would go solid... you don't need to do any modifications to the block, and the money you save by not having to do the block mods will go towards your cam/lifters... there are plenty of street grinds that don't require exotic valvesprings...

besides, a solid cam is MUCH easier to set up at the rockers... setting lash takes two seconds, setting pre-load on a hydraulic is fucking annoying...

Forrest


Is a hydraulic flat tappet lifter like a hydraulic roller without the roller? Would I run into the same cam limitation problems as with a solid flat tappet?

How could I run a solid roller cam with no modifications to a non-roller block? I remember doing having to set up the hydraulic lifters, and it was a pain, but I don't want to have to be setting lash all the time. I would like the extra power, and may go that way just for that reason, but right now I'm just trying to figure out the block/cam situation.

AL P:

Bottom line...

Solid roller will blow the piss out of just about any other cam type.

Reliable springs for a solid roller setup of any significant lift are going to cost about $300 for the springs, retainers and keepers. I'm talking about some pacaloy springs here boys, not some junk.

Cam itself $269 or so, just like a hydraulic cam

The lifters...I like the Crower lifters, so does KC. They are $330 a set, no mods necessary to the block.


So I'd just buy these lifters and I could go solid roller in a non-roller block with no mods?

I can convert a vintage windsor block to use the OEM style 5.0 hydrualic roller lifter for about $2 as long as you have a spider plate from your 5.0. These lifters cost about $100 new and will require a reduced base circle cam...about $269 for the cam and a $150 for the spring package.

I've got the spider plate, lifters, retainers, etc, from my 302. Would I have to replace any of that? What is a reduced base circle cam?

You can use the "drop in" style hydraulic roller lifter, these are about $269 or $300 a set depending on which brand. Requires no modifications to the block. Cam costs about the same $269, springs are going to run the same $150.


If I can use any of the parts I've already got, that would be the best for my situation right now. I just need to know what I'd need to replace and how to make it work, and I'd like to avoid having limited cam choices.


So pick your poison...
Reduced base circle hydraulic roller for about $520
"Drop in" hydraulic roller for about $680
Solid roller for about $900


What to do....
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Unread 10-07-2002, 09:42 PM   #21
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The main "problem" with running roller cams in 351 non roller blocks is the length of the lifter bores. Also the non roller blocks do not have the holes in the lifter valley to accept the spider hold down tray that the roller motor requires. This is easy to fix though. But if you use a regular size cam and regular 302 roller lifters in a non roller block, the lifter will stick up way to far outside of the lifter bore. The lifter will not hold oil pressure and just will not work.

Like was said earlier a reduced base circle cam can be used and then you can use regular 302 roller lifters. A reduced base circle cam is just a cam that is ground using a smaller core section. You end up with a cam that has the same lobe shapes, but with a much smaller circumference (sp?) That lets the lifters sit down in the bores far enough so they will work.

The other way is to use a regular cam with the retro-style lifters. These lifters have the oiling points further down on the lifter closer to the rolller bearing. (Except for solid lifters which don't need oil pressure) They also have link bars that join the lifters into pairs so they don't rotate in the bores and you don't need the spider hold tray.

I have had both setups in my engine and now want to change over to a solid roller cam with a shaft mount rocker system. It will be the ultimate.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 09:48 PM   #22
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Josh, my post encompasses everything that you need to know.

Either of the "drop in" lifters (solid or hydraulic) goes right into a non roller block with no modifications, that is why they are called drop in because you just put them in and go.

If you want to reuse as many of the parts that you have, then you will want the retrofit cam. You can reuse your lifters and your spider retainer plate. All you will need is a cam, the appropriate springs and pushrods. All the rest of your stuff can be reused.

I would highly recommend that pistons that I told you about from KC, he can cut them for a big cam and they are pretty cheap.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 10:22 PM   #23
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what I have for a cam in my nonroller 351w

Just to muddy the already cloudy waters some more---
I bought a crane 2031 hyd roller cam for a roller 302, I took it to a local cam regrinder (norfleet) and had the base circle reduced, same lift and duration, just that the lifter sits .200 lower in the bore. I used the stock 302 roller lifters and spider. This was in a 72 351 w block. With a hand drill and a center punch, I marked the spider position and drilled and tapped the holes to hold it down. be carefull and use short bolts because the holes are over the cam bearings. As for preload, I set it up on the engine stand with the intake off, I have 7/16 adj rockers and set the lifter preload with the lifter on the base circle at .010 by eyeball. I have 130 lbs valve spring pressure at the seats and the motor will rev to over 6600. With this setup ( reduced base and 302 lifters) , depending on your heads you may have to order custom pushrods or get lucky like me and be able to use 351c pushrods. there are a lot of pushrods in the 5/16 size at autozone. if you use guide plates, check for blue spots where the ball ends are welded on, these pushrods are hardened and will work with guide plates, no blue spots and they will look like the ones in the attached picture.
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Unread 10-07-2002, 10:30 PM   #24
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I forgot something

I hand ground some flats on the back of the lifter bores for the dogbones to sit on
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Unread 10-08-2002, 08:10 AM   #25
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Now aren't you patriotic Jyro. Damn nice car! Nice lady in the corner picture If thats your wife, no disrespect intended.
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Unread 10-08-2002, 04:04 PM   #26
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OK I think I've got it now. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet, but now I know my options. Thanks for the help everyone!
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Unread 10-10-2002, 11:59 AM   #27
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http://www.auto-ware.com/shoptalk/hyd_sol.htm

Quote:
from somewhere other then AbecX's brain

Typically, valve train friction is small in comparison to piston ring and cylinder friction or rod friction. Don't forget the cam is running at half the RPMs and is a smaller diameter than a crank or rod journal, so the surface feet per min of a cam is real low by comparison. Also, the lifter load on the base circle is much smaller than the other loads. As such I don't think the added friction of the hydraulic lifter would amount to much.

Solid lifter cams tend to have more "area under the curve" than hydraulic cams. Even though you have the same duration, the lift tends to run higher on the solid lifter cam. These items will have an impact on the volumetric efficiency and most l ikely be the increase in power you are experiencing with the solid lifters and cam. Also, some hydraulic lifters are subject to leakage, which robs lift.
More good info:
http://www.houstonperformance.com/te...icles.htm#cams

Last edited by AbecX; 10-10-2002 at 12:02 PM.
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Unread 10-12-2002, 01:26 AM   #28
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It's a littel late, but for those who wanted the price on the lifters.


Comp Cams mechanical roller lifters, from Summit, $292.99. It's in the Hardcore Racing Parts section of the Camshafts and Acc.

Part number CCA-838-16

Oh yeah these are the drop in or "retrofit" roller lifters with the link bar setup. Heck the Comp stock style hyd lifters are $204 from Summit.

Last edited by bobs94formula; 10-12-2002 at 07:08 AM.
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Unread 10-12-2002, 02:12 AM   #29
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Now aren't you patriotic Jyro.
and he was patriotic before it was the "in thing" to be!
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