BKENNIM, this will explain fully what I was talking about....

AnotherRedHead · 11-26-2001, 09:18 PM

One day your in the gym and a freak of nature walks in. This guy has massively ripped muscles from head to toe. As you watch the specimen, he approaches the squat rack. You begin to get excited as he loads the bar in the squat rack. You are wondering how much this guy squats. He begins going through his warm-up sets. He starts with 135 and then 225. He puts 295 on the bar and begins his decent. Guess what? He is stuck at the bottom. The next day at the gym you notice a short chubby guy walk in that you have not seen before. You watch as he approaches the squat rack. He begins to go through his warm-up sets. He starts his warm-up sets with 135 then 225 and then 315. You are very suprised. This guys physique development does not even come close to the level of the freaks’ that was in the gym yesterday. This guy is now squatting 405 with ease. Eventually he moves up to 500lbs. for 3 reps. This is a common scenario.

How do we explain the chubby guy squatting more than the lean muscular machine? Another example of this case is the comparison of powerlifters to bodybuilders. There is a noticeable difference in physique development. The bodybuilders show supreme muscular and physique development in comparison to the powerlifters; but powerlifters are usually stronger. There are numerous factors that contribute to the supreme strength displayed by the powerlifter. These factors include mechanical advantages such as limb length and tendon insertions. A higher rate of fast twitch muscle fibers and better neural efficiency can also contribute to the disparity of strength between the two athletes. There are numerous other factors that can affect strength , but we will not discuss these issues any further. Our concern in this article is the size strength relationship. More precisely we will look at sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and myofibrillar hypertrophy.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (common in bodybuilding) involves the growth of the sarcoplasm (fluid like substance) and non contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Filament area density decreases while cross-sectional area increases, without a significant increase in strength. Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to an increase in myosin-actin filaments. Contractile proteins are synthesized and filament density increases (Zatsiorsky 1995). This type of hypertrophy leads to increased strength production.

Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy

Muscle fibers adapt to high volume training by increasing the number of mitochondria ( organelles in the cell that are involved in ATP production) in the cell. This type of training also leads to the elevation of enzymes that are involved in glycolytic and oxidative pathways. The volume of sarcoplasmic fluid inside the cell and between the cells are increased with high volume training. This type of training contributes little to maximal strength while it does increase strength endurance due to mitochondria hypertrophy. Growth of connective tissue is also present with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

Myofibrillar Hypertrophy

Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to increases in the number of myosin/actin filaments (sarcomeres) inside the cell. This leads to increased strength and size of the contractile unit of muscle. Ultimately this means greater force production. This is often referred to as functional muscle, while sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is referred to as non-functional muscle.

ATP and Muscular Growth

As we said earlier, increasing the number of mitochondria in the cell means increased ATP production. ATP is required for protein synthesis to occur. Low levels of ATP will halt muscular growth as well as inhibit other metabolic functions that take place inside the muscle cell. Siff and Verkhoshansky have shown that it is possible to increase your muscles contractile unit faster than the mitochondria’s ability to compensate for this growth. When actin/myosin filaments out grow the number of mitochondria, growth of elements besides the sarcomere is inhibited. The insufficient quantity of ATP results in the bodies inability to promote protein synthesis.

Size vs. Strength

In general, bodybuilders are more muscular than powerlifters, but powerlifters are stronger. How does training with weights that are 90% of 1RM develop strength and power, but do very little for hypertrophy? Studies have shown an intense set of 5 reps involves more fibers than an intense set of 1rep. Research has shown that using loads in the 90% range causes failure to occur before a growth stimulus has been sent to the cells. Therefore other factors besides muscle fiber fatigue result in termination of the set. The muscle simply does not have sufficient time under tension to stimulate the growth process. High rep training produces high levels of phosphate and hydrogen Ions which enhance the growth process. Research has shown heavy lifting enhances neural efficiency ( improved motor recruitment, and firing rates) which enhances strength , but does not necessarily result in muscular growth. With this information you can see why the strength, and size levels are different between bodybuilders and powerlifters.

There are powerlifters that possess muscularity comparable to bodybuilders. There are also bodybuilders who have equal or greater strength than powerlifters. Do not misinterpret this article to mean there is no relationship between strength and size. If you gain 30lbs. of lean tissue you will probably become stronger. The basic idea presented in this article is there is a relationship between size and strength , but strength increases can occur due to other reasons. Just as size increase can occur with a non linear strength increase.

Bkennim · 11-26-2001, 09:38 PM

Looks like you have found some research to back you up. Good. I guess I will have to search the internet too since you want to try and prove it that way. and I will find some bodybuilders that on off season have a low rep workout to gain more mass. By the way, I go off personal experiences on how my body grows and not what other people say about how their body responds.

By the way I think I know you. What highschool did you go to? And how old are you?

-Brandon

AnotherRedHead · 11-26-2001, 10:14 PM

I went to duncanville high school and Im only 20

AnotherRedHead · 11-26-2001, 10:15 PM

BTW, I was going on how my body responds too, but also on proven research....I can give you the references to that article if you want. I wasn't trying to be a dick when I posted this either, I just wanted to explain it fully which I couldn't do the other day.

Bkennim · 11-26-2001, 10:23 PM

Quote:

I went to duncanville high school and Im only 20

Sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to a kid. This explains alot. Keep working out and you will learn alot about your body and how it grows. Take it from me, since I have been doing this for 12 years, and know alot of people including myself that train just to build mass and then cut it up for a show.

AL P · 11-26-2001, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherRedHead
Research has shown heavy lifting enhances neural efficiency ( improved motor recruitment, and firing rates) which enhances strength , but does not necessarily result in muscular growth.

This is 100% true. One of the basics of powerlifting...essentially using what muscle mass you have more efficiently. This is how a 165 lb. class lifter can squat 550 lbs. I have seen it happen many times most of the time the guys had legs that weren't impressive at all.

AnotherRedHead · 11-26-2001, 11:58 PM

Exactly...AL P, back me up here, you know me, and you know I know my shit when it comes to diet and steroids and training....Beknnim you may disagree with what I have to say, but Im sorry, I am right....

Bkennim · 11-27-2001, 12:49 AM

I think you just can't handle being wrong. I bet you don't have a girlfriend do you? If you don't then that is why. Why do you think I would listen to Al P anyways? Do you think you are the authority in weight lifting or what? Dude, don't get me wrong I know I don't know everything about weight lifting, and neither do you. Lets face it, who does. Each individual grows and responds differently than everyone else. So don't talk to me about what you think is right and wrong.

Al P - that is correct, but if you would read verything that I have stated, you would see that I said in addition to gaining weight and strength you have to incorporate everything together. Low reps and heavy weight for mass, in the cutting up phase higher reps and lighter weight to burn fat and to concentrate on definition.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME EITHER ONE OF YOU WERE AT 3% BODYFAT AND WEIGHED 200LBS. AND COULD STILL BENCHPRESS 385LBS?

ANSWER - NEITHER ONE OF YOU.

Bye the way, I'm not mad. I just typed in caps to enphasize the point.

AL P · 11-27-2001, 09:19 AM

When was the last time you were at 175 lbs. and benched 360? Thats over twice my body weight and I did it in 1994.

Arguing over the internet is just stupid. I've been doing this for 12 years too and what works for you doesn't work for everyone else, you should know that by now. In my experience ARH is correct. You can disagree if you want, I'm not going to argue, it's a waste of my time.

AnotherRedHead · 11-27-2001, 09:59 AM

I have a girlfriend, and my dick is bigger than yours hahaha

AL P · 11-27-2001, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AnotherRedHead

I have a girlfriend, and my dick is bigger than yours hahaha

Leon isn't a girl!

AnotherRedHead · 11-27-2001, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AL P

Leon isn't a girl!

neither is mike!

AL P · 11-27-2001, 02:09 PM

Yea but I'm not fucking Mike!

AnotherRedHead · 11-27-2001, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AL P
Yea but I'm not fucking Mike!

Dont lie!

Bkennim · 11-27-2001, 06:37 PM

Quote:

I've been doing this for 12 years too and what works for you doesn't work for everyone else, you should know that by now.

Al, you need to read what I write before you type a message. I have already said this. Hell dude, this is the basis of my argument.

Bkennim · 11-27-2001, 06:43 PM

Quote:

I have a girlfriend, and my dick is bigger than yours hahaha

That's funny that you say that, because thats not what she was telling me last time I was with her.

AL P · 11-28-2001, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bkennim

Al, you need to read what I write before you type a message. I have already said this. Hell dude, this is the basis of my argument.

I was under the impression that you were trying to say that low reps, say 3 to 5, will build more mass than a moderate rep routine, say in the 6 to 8 rep range. Sorry if i am mistaken.

That is the one absolute that I have learned is that there IS NO one thing that works for everyone.

AnotherRedHead · 11-28-2001, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bkennim

That's funny that you say that, because thats not what she was telling me last time I was with her.

HAHA, and I fucked your mom too dude, shut the fuck up....goddamn, Im through with all you whiny baby pussy ass motherfuckers, geez....

Bkennim · 11-28-2001, 06:04 PM

That was a good one ARH. Where did you come up with that?

Bkennim · 11-28-2001, 06:05 PM

Quote:

I was under the impression that you were trying to say that low reps, say 3 to 5, will build more mass than a moderate rep routine, say in the 6 to 8 rep range. Sorry if i am mistaken.

No prob.. I think this whole thing is getting a little out of control. Is ARD a stepchild?

AnotherRedHead · 11-28-2001, 07:02 PM

Hey Im feeling subtle today, Im sorry, lets be friends

haha

Really, just drop it, I don't have time to keep arguing...

You keep lifting your way and I will do it mine.... cool?

11-26-2001, 09:18 PM	#1
AnotherRedHead The Fastest of the Fast Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: FastestETville Posts: 13,151	BKENNIM, this will explain fully what I was talking about.... One day your in the gym and a freak of nature walks in. This guy has massively ripped muscles from head to toe. As you watch the specimen, he approaches the squat rack. You begin to get excited as he loads the bar in the squat rack. You are wondering how much this guy squats. He begins going through his warm-up sets. He starts with 135 and then 225. He puts 295 on the bar and begins his decent. Guess what? He is stuck at the bottom. The next day at the gym you notice a short chubby guy walk in that you have not seen before. You watch as he approaches the squat rack. He begins to go through his warm-up sets. He starts his warm-up sets with 135 then 225 and then 315. You are very suprised. This guys physique development does not even come close to the level of the freaks’ that was in the gym yesterday. This guy is now squatting 405 with ease. Eventually he moves up to 500lbs. for 3 reps. This is a common scenario. How do we explain the chubby guy squatting more than the lean muscular machine? Another example of this case is the comparison of powerlifters to bodybuilders. There is a noticeable difference in physique development. The bodybuilders show supreme muscular and physique development in comparison to the powerlifters; but powerlifters are usually stronger. There are numerous factors that contribute to the supreme strength displayed by the powerlifter. These factors include mechanical advantages such as limb length and tendon insertions. A higher rate of fast twitch muscle fibers and better neural efficiency can also contribute to the disparity of strength between the two athletes. There are numerous other factors that can affect strength , but we will not discuss these issues any further. Our concern in this article is the size strength relationship. More precisely we will look at sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and myofibrillar hypertrophy. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (common in bodybuilding) involves the growth of the sarcoplasm (fluid like substance) and non contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Filament area density decreases while cross-sectional area increases, without a significant increase in strength. Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to an increase in myosin-actin filaments. Contractile proteins are synthesized and filament density increases (Zatsiorsky 1995). This type of hypertrophy leads to increased strength production. Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy Muscle fibers adapt to high volume training by increasing the number of mitochondria ( organelles in the cell that are involved in ATP production) in the cell. This type of training also leads to the elevation of enzymes that are involved in glycolytic and oxidative pathways. The volume of sarcoplasmic fluid inside the cell and between the cells are increased with high volume training. This type of training contributes little to maximal strength while it does increase strength endurance due to mitochondria hypertrophy. Growth of connective tissue is also present with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Myofibrillar Hypertrophy Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to increases in the number of myosin/actin filaments (sarcomeres) inside the cell. This leads to increased strength and size of the contractile unit of muscle. Ultimately this means greater force production. This is often referred to as functional muscle, while sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is referred to as non-functional muscle. ATP and Muscular Growth As we said earlier, increasing the number of mitochondria in the cell means increased ATP production. ATP is required for protein synthesis to occur. Low levels of ATP will halt muscular growth as well as inhibit other metabolic functions that take place inside the muscle cell. Siff and Verkhoshansky have shown that it is possible to increase your muscles contractile unit faster than the mitochondria’s ability to compensate for this growth. When actin/myosin filaments out grow the number of mitochondria, growth of elements besides the sarcomere is inhibited. The insufficient quantity of ATP results in the bodies inability to promote protein synthesis. Size vs. Strength In general, bodybuilders are more muscular than powerlifters, but powerlifters are stronger. How does training with weights that are 90% of 1RM develop strength and power, but do very little for hypertrophy? Studies have shown an intense set of 5 reps involves more fibers than an intense set of 1rep. Research has shown that using loads in the 90% range causes failure to occur before a growth stimulus has been sent to the cells. Therefore other factors besides muscle fiber fatigue result in termination of the set. The muscle simply does not have sufficient time under tension to stimulate the growth process. High rep training produces high levels of phosphate and hydrogen Ions which enhance the growth process. Research has shown heavy lifting enhances neural efficiency ( improved motor recruitment, and firing rates) which enhances strength , but does not necessarily result in muscular growth. With this information you can see why the strength, and size levels are different between bodybuilders and powerlifters. There are powerlifters that possess muscularity comparable to bodybuilders. There are also bodybuilders who have equal or greater strength than powerlifters. Do not misinterpret this article to mean there is no relationship between strength and size. If you gain 30lbs. of lean tissue you will probably become stronger. The basic idea presented in this article is there is a relationship between size and strength , but strength increases can occur due to other reasons. Just as size increase can occur with a non linear strength increase.

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11-26-2001, 09:38 PM	#2
Bkennim Time Served Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The gym. Posts: 650	Looks like you have found some research to back you up. Good. I guess I will have to search the internet too since you want to try and prove it that way. and I will find some bodybuilders that on off season have a low rep workout to gain more mass. By the way, I go off personal experiences on how my body grows and not what other people say about how their body responds. By the way I think I know you. What highschool did you go to? And how old are you? -Brandon

11-26-2001, 10:14 PM	#3
AnotherRedHead The Fastest of the Fast Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: FastestETville Posts: 13,151	I went to duncanville high school and Im only 20

11-26-2001, 10:15 PM	#4
AnotherRedHead The Fastest of the Fast Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: FastestETville Posts: 13,151	BTW, I was going on how my body responds too, but also on proven research....I can give you the references to that article if you want. I wasn't trying to be a dick when I posted this either, I just wanted to explain it fully which I couldn't do the other day.

11-26-2001, 11:58 PM	#7
AnotherRedHead The Fastest of the Fast Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: FastestETville Posts: 13,151	Exactly...AL P, back me up here, you know me, and you know I know my shit when it comes to diet and steroids and training....Beknnim you may disagree with what I have to say, but Im sorry, I am right....

11-27-2001, 12:49 AM	#8
Bkennim Time Served Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The gym. Posts: 650	I think you just can't handle being wrong. I bet you don't have a girlfriend do you? If you don't then that is why. Why do you think I would listen to Al P anyways? Do you think you are the authority in weight lifting or what? Dude, don't get me wrong I know I don't know everything about weight lifting, and neither do you. Lets face it, who does. Each individual grows and responds differently than everyone else. So don't talk to me about what you think is right and wrong. Al P - that is correct, but if you would read verything that I have stated, you would see that I said in addition to gaining weight and strength you have to incorporate everything together. Low reps and heavy weight for mass, in the cutting up phase higher reps and lighter weight to burn fat and to concentrate on definition. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME EITHER ONE OF YOU WERE AT 3% BODYFAT AND WEIGHED 200LBS. AND COULD STILL BENCHPRESS 385LBS? ANSWER - NEITHER ONE OF YOU. Bye the way, I'm not mad. I just typed in caps to enphasize the point.

11-27-2001, 09:19 AM	#9
AL P Man of Steel Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 31,151	When was the last time you were at 175 lbs. and benched 360? Thats over twice my body weight and I did it in 1994. Arguing over the internet is just stupid. I've been doing this for 12 years too and what works for you doesn't work for everyone else, you should know that by now. In my experience ARH is correct. You can disagree if you want, I'm not going to argue, it's a waste of my time.

11-27-2001, 09:59 AM	#10
AnotherRedHead The Fastest of the Fast Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: FastestETville Posts: 13,151	I have a girlfriend, and my dick is bigger than yours hahaha

11-27-2001, 02:09 PM	#13
AL P Man of Steel Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 31,151	Yea but I'm not fucking Mike!

11-28-2001, 06:04 PM	#19
Bkennim Time Served Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The gym. Posts: 650	That was a good one ARH. Where did you come up with that?

11-28-2001, 07:02 PM	#21
AnotherRedHead The Fastest of the Fast Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: FastestETville Posts: 13,151	Hey Im feeling subtle today, Im sorry, lets be friends haha Really, just drop it, I don't have time to keep arguing... You keep lifting your way and I will do it mine.... cool?