Cartman, please explain..

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by 46Tbird

COPS - The fact I have nothing to hide doesn't justify new legislation designed expressly to circumvent protections written into the Constitution. I'm all for law enforcement agencies having the ability to gather evidence to convict criminals. But the fact is, a criminal has to commit the crime before there is an offense. And sometimes you are hamstrung by the system when it comes to HOW evidence is gathered. This is by design! The fact that you are eager to thwart crimes is great, but that doesn't mean you can violate a criminal's rights to stop them.

You ask cops about crimes and imply that the PA is sued for crimes, when it so far has been used to thwart terrorist acts, not crimes. Will they expand the definition of terrorism to suit them at some time to defone crimes? Maybe, but let's deal with that when and if it happens.

I hope you are not implying terrorists are like a guy who pulls a gun and robs a store or an individual, a criminal. I agree with everything you said about criminals, but completely disagree that we should fight terrorism like we do crimes, if that is what you were saying.

Originally Posted by 46Tbird

Oh yeah, my little sister was victim of an armed robbery two weeks ago, and they took her purse and phone. Why can't the police use her cell signal to track these assholes??

There are several reasons why and since I am not sure of the agency involved, I will throw out several possibilities. It could be because the agency involved doesn't have the capability to track the cell signal, it could be becuase they are trying to wait until the phone is used and want to trace the bad guy by the numbers he uses, it could be becuase the detective is lazy and doesn't want to go to the trouble to ask for the subpoena for the cell signal tracking, the cell phone could be turned off and have no signal to trace right now, or several other possibilities.

I can tell you that FW has so many robberies that we could never do a cell signal track on every robbery. When I was in the Sex Crimes unit we had a case that involved the taking of a cell phone from a victim and we did the cell signal tracking to find the phone. It is very labor intensive to do, and usually it is reserved for the most aggregious cases, like serial robbers, rapsists, kidnappers, and murderers. This may not make you feel better, but it is probably one of the above reasons.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Slowhand

Interestingly enough, that sounds a lot like what our government uses the Patriot Act to do.

Do you have evidence of the PA being used against Americans when there was no cause? You seem to claim it is happening, so I wonder where you get that idea from.

[46Tbird]

Originally Posted by Paladin

When I was in the Sex Crimes unit we had a case that involved the taking of a cell phone from a victim and we did the cell signal tracking to find the phone. It is very labor intensive to do, and usually it is reserved for the most aggregious cases, like serial robbers, rapsists, kidnappers, and murderers. This may not make you feel better, but it is probably one of the above reasons.

This is the reason I was given.

And you're right, it doesn't make me feel better to know that some piece of dog shit got away with stepping on my sister's neck in a parking lot because tracking them down is labor intensive.

[03trubluGT]

Originally Posted by 46Tbird

This is the reason I was given.

And you're right, it doesn't make me feel better to know that some piece of dog shit got away with stepping on my sister's neck in a parking lot because tracking them down is labor intensive.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but to investigate every crime like it deserves to be investigated, we'd have to quadruple our manpower and resources.

What pisses me off is if Joe Blow is a victim of Criminal Mischeif, we do what little we can. If it is the Mayor or a City Councilperson, stand the hell by!

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by 46Tbird

This is the reason I was given.

And you're right, it doesn't make me feel better to know that some piece of dog shit got away with stepping on my sister's neck in a parking lot because tracking them down is labor intensive.

It wouldn't make me feel any better either. What agency is doing the investigation?

[AL P]

The whole issue has to do with slippery slope. Every law passed will be interpreted as broadly as possible by law enforcement. Practically speaking I really have nothing to fear from the patriot act as it is now.

The problem with an approach of "We'll deal with it when it becomes a problem" is that you are putting your head in the sand. Once these laws are in place all you need is the right mix of Supreme Court justices and they can be interpreted to mean all sorts of things. When it comes to interpretation by the judical branch there is no real way to "deal" with it. You are at their mercy barring some sort of action from the exective or legislative branch and who wants to appear to be "soft" on crime? No politician that I know of.

[Paladin]

I may be splitting hairs with you but since when is the PA for crimes? I have only heard about it applied to terrorism.

I also have a problem with it being applied to local crimes or even federal crimes because it should be applied to terrorism, not crimes.

[03trubluGT]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I may be splitting hairs with you but since when is the PA for crimes? I have only heard about it applied to terrorism.

I also have a problem with it being applied to local crimes or even federal crimes because it should be applied to terrorism, not crimes.

Terrorism is a crime. It's just the criminal act that is designed to illicit a terroristic response.

The illiegal act (whatever it is) is still an illegal act with the terrorism lable applied.

[Saladbar]

Originally Posted by bcoop

Yep. I've seen them go out of their way to let the Middle Easterners right on through, and hassle old white women, or old white men, just to show they aren't profiling. I've witnessed it on countless occasions.



Look. Stereotypes exist for a reason. So does profiling. Sucks that people are so damn sensitive that they can't stand it. Instead of complaining, they should do more to break down the stereotypes, rather than complain about profiling.

Gonna have to disagree with this statement.... Then again, maybe I'm partly numb due to flying 90k miles so far this year.

The majority of the people I've seen stopped by TSA agents have been of middle eastern descent. Even a secondary running of their carry ons or sending them through the air puffers.

That being said... My black coworker gets the redlight in Mexico City every single time. LMAO

[aceman85turbo]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

Brent, you have to know that I wasn't a cop my whole life. I grew up in Ennis and went into the Marines out of high school.

So, from the time I was born until I was a cop (for about 23 years) every time I got stopped, I NEVER got asked to be searched.

I have been pulled over about 20 times in the last 3 years, ticketed for speeding twice.

asked for search 15+ times.

we discussed some of this here, where my wife and two very young children were foced to sit in a hot car on a 103 degree day with the car turned off(no AC). http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=396770

Blame me for my choice in cars, blame me for my choice in interstates i choose to drive, you CANNOT blame me for the abuse of search and seizure laws.

Edit: I would like to point out, I do not hate all LEO's, in fact im very grateful for the job they do, and i know i could not do it. If "all cops" were bad, i would have had 20+ tickets instead of two.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

.. how the Patriot Act has effected your personal freedoms?

You kept saying how the PA has given us "less rights", so show me an example of what rights you have been suffering without...

sorry just saw this. just a few quick ones before I go to work

no more need for a warrent to do search and siezures or tap phone lines
can be detained without being charged, or access to a lawyer or a speedy trial
when I get back on monday I can go into more detail if you like but both of those are in the bill of rights. so if both of those are taken aways so easy, number 1, 2, etc are not gonna be as hard to get rid of either.

[03trubluGT]

Originally Posted by Cartman

sorry just saw this. just a few quick ones before I go to work

no more need for a warrent to do search and siezures or tap phone lines
can be detained without being charged, or access to a lawyer or a speedy trial
when I get back on monday I can go into more detail if you like but both of those are in the bill of rights. so if both of those are taken aways so easy, number 1, 2, etc are not gonna be as hard to get rid of either.

I think you misunderstood the question.

What specific right or liberty have you experienced an articulable loss due to the PA?

Not "what could happen", but what definable act has happened directly to you?

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

I think you misunderstood the question.

What specific right or liberty have you experienced an articulable loss due to the PA?

Not "what could happen", but what definable act has happened directly to you?

As far as I know it hasn't yet, but who's to say they haven't listened on a call or accessed my pc. But if they choose to look at me they can do what they want without proof and I would not be allowed my due process. I would rather have my rights, because we all know innocent people can and do get wrongly convicted, but sometimes the due process comes thru for them, even if after the fact.

The system we had while not perfect still allowed you the rights our founding fathers granted to all Americans.

[tenacious j]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

I think you misunderstood the question.

What specific right or liberty have you experienced an articulable loss due to the PA?

Not "what could happen", but what definable act has happened directly to you?

couldn't you can turn this argument around on issues like health care and other government ran shit.

what specific right have you experienced an articulable loss due to socialized health care? none. so you shouldn't speak up against it until it specifically fucks you?



the argument people make about how they have been stopped 20 times in their life and nobody has ever searched their car, so if a cop asks to search your car and you aren't doing anything illegal you should just let them is nonsense.

i have been fucked with by cops on a couple different occasions and i have no criminal record. i have never been convicted of any crime but i have seen first hand the bullshit cops do because they can.

cops arrested my roommate INSIDE of a bar for public intox just because he stood up for himself to them. and they tried to get him for assaulting an officer when it was them who assaulted him and threatened to arrest me for pointing out the fact that what they were doing was fucked up. why should we willingly just give up our rights that were set up in the constitution when we have seen first hand people abuse the powers they have already?

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

Terrorism is a crime. It's just the criminal act that is designed to illicit a terroristic response.

The illiegal act (whatever it is) is still an illegal act with the terrorism lable applied.

My point is you don't fight terrorism by crime fighting and police work. Crime tends to be for personal or group financial gain while terrorism is motivated by group hate or religious reasons.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Cartman

As far as I know it hasn't yet, but who's to say they haven't listened on a call or accessed my pc. But if they choose to look at me they can do what they want without proof and I would not be allowed my due process. I would rather have my rights, because we all know innocent people can and do get wrongly convicted, but sometimes the due process comes thru for them, even if after the fact.

The system we had while not perfect still allowed you the rights our founding fathers granted to all Americans.

The PA does not allow warrantless searches unless you were suspected of terrorisim. All of the above searches can be done with a warrant regardless of the PA or not.

BTW, I have concerns about our government going too far also. I still want to see someone who has been targeted by the PA specifically and how it was abused. I have heard of people who claimed thye were wrongfully targeted, but so far all of them had ties to terrorsim and were not falsely accused or targeted. They are the reason we have the PA in force as a matter of fact.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by tenacious j

couldn't you can turn this argument around on issues like health care and other government ran shit.

what specific right have you experienced an articulable loss due to socialized health care? none. so you shouldn't speak up against it until it specifically fucks you?



the argument people make about how they have been stopped 20 times in their life and nobody has ever searched their car, so if a cop asks to search your car and you aren't doing anything illegal you should just let them is nonsense.

i have been fucked with by cops on a couple different occasions and i have no criminal record. i have never been convicted of any crime but i have seen first hand the bullshit cops do because they can.

cops arrested my roommate INSIDE of a bar for public intox just because he stood up for himself to them. and they tried to get him for assaulting an officer when it was them who assaulted him and threatened to arrest me for pointing out the fact that what they were doing was fucked up. why should we willingly just give up our rights that were set up in the constitution when we have seen first hand people abuse the powers they have already?

When it comes to health care are you saying socialized health care does not have definitive proof from other countries about how terrible that system is? I can't articulate a loss from socialized health care because I have positioned myself to have excellent health care from my employer. BTW, do you support Obamacare?

Your gripe with some local cops needs context. I wonder if your friend was actually drunk in a public bar and hence he got arrested for public intoxication (sticking his nose into a situation he had no business in or talking shit to a cop in a bar is pretty much one solid definition of public intoxiaction). I wonder if on some of these traffic stops you or the driver had an attitude? You keep bringoing local cop issues into a discussion about the PA, and that makes me laugh at you.

You do realize the PA is to fight terrorism (you know, people who want to kill you solely becuase you are an American!), not your roommate being drunk in a bar or your attitude when you get pulled over by a cop. LMAO!

[WisH4SvTs]

<<<< Says something smart!

[tenacious j]

Originally Posted by Paladin

When it comes to health care are you saying socialized health care does not have definitive proof from other countries about how terrible that system is? I can't articulate a loss from socialized health care because I have positioned myself to have excellent health care from my employer. BTW, do you support Obamacare?

Your gripe with some local cops needs context. I wonder if your friend was actually drunk in a public bar and hence he got arrested for public intoxication (sticking his nose into a situation he had no business in or talking shit to a cop in a bar is pretty much one solid definition of public intoxiaction). I wonder if on some of these traffic stops you or the driver had an attitude? You keep bringoing local cop issues into a discussion about the PA, and that makes me laugh at you.

You do realize the PA is to fight terrorism (you know, people who want to kill you solely becuase you are an American!), not your roommate being drunk in a bar or your attitude when you get pulled over by a cop. LMAO!

the healthcare thing, i was just equating the original question of how does the pa effect you? thing to another form of the government taking more control in the healthcare system. it just seems like we will let the government take more of our rights away willingly if they say it is for terrorism but if the issue is something like healthcare we scream socialism.

oh and no i don't support obama care. i believe in a very limited government. if i was smart enough to put your quote and then my response to each issue this would probably read better, but i have no idea how people do that.

i was not trying to say that the pa had anything to do with my confrontations with law enforcement, i was just trying to show how people with power will abuse it.

terrorism was already a crime. we didn't need more laws because of the attacks from terrorism, people just need to do their jobs. like this recent shooting at fort hood, i am under the impression that 6 months ago this dickhead was "suspected" of making some wild statements online, but he still hadn't been put under formal investigation yet. that is just someone not doing their job.

the thing with my roommate, ok about 6 of us are enjoying some whisky and salty language in a bar. a bar, not a restaurant with families at 5:00 in the evening, a shit hole bar at 1:00 in the morning. just minding our own business, cops come into the bar and start checking ids and shit. no big deal, if a cop wants to make sure i am of legal drinking age i will show him. then they start fucking with a buddy of ours about how many he has had and what not, my roommate tells the cop that the guy is going to be riding home with us and our driver is not drunk. cop tells him to mind his own business, so my roommate and i walk away from the table we were at and go back to the pool table we had been playing at.

a few minutes later the cop comes over to the table we are playing at and tells my roommate that when he is talking to someone not to interfere. he laughs and tells the cop "yeah i heard you the first time you told me and that's why we came over here and if you don't mind we are in the middle of a game so why don't you go hassle someone else" cop tells him he will hassle whomever he pleases so my roommate laughs at him and goes back to shooting pool. cop calls his partner over and they start in on the questions of how many have you had and what not. he tells the cops "ok i will tell you again, we have a designated driver i will not be driving, now go away because i am not doing anything wrong" and walks away. cop comes up and grabs his arm and tells him he is being arrested for pi so my roommate pulls his arm away and tells the cop to back off. the other cop comes up and they try to wrestle him down to the ground. they take him outside and put him in the squad car.

i walk outside and ask one of them what the deal is and they tell me he is being arrested for pi and he is lucky that he isn't getting a resisting arrest charge as well. i tell them that he isn't that drunk and the cop tells me i can join him if i want. so i tell the cop i have only had one drink and haven't even finished it yet, cop ignores me and walks away. so i call my brother who is a cop and tell him whats going on and he tells me they shouldn't be arresting him unless he is a danger to himself or others. so i walk back over to the cops and tell them this and their response is "yeah well your friend has a smart mouth"

story has nothing to do with pa. i never said it did. the only reason i mentioned it was people with too much authority will abuse it. i just think we should be limiting the powers of the government not giving them more. i think they should just make breaking the law illegal, seems like it would solve a lot of problems.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by tenacious j

the healthcare thing, i was just equating the original question of how does the pa effect you? thing to another form of the government taking more control in the healthcare system. it just seems like we will let the government take more of our rights away willingly if they say it is for terrorism but if the issue is something like healthcare we scream socialism.

oh and no i don't support obama care. i believe in a very limited government. if i was smart enough to put your quote and then my response to each issue this would probably read better, but i have no idea how people do that.

i was not trying to say that the pa had anything to do with my confrontations with law enforcement, i was just trying to show how people with power will abuse it.

terrorism was already a crime. we didn't need more laws because of the attacks from terrorism, people just need to do their jobs. like this recent shooting at fort hood, i am under the impression that 6 months ago this dickhead was "suspected" of making some wild statements online, but he still hadn't been put under formal investigation yet. that is just someone not doing their job.

the thing with my roommate, ok about 6 of us are enjoying some whisky and salty language in a bar. a bar, not a restaurant with families at 5:00 in the evening, a shit hole bar at 1:00 in the morning. just minding our own business, cops come into the bar and start checking ids and shit. no big deal, if a cop wants to make sure i am of legal drinking age i will show him. then they start fucking with a buddy of ours about how many he has had and what not, my roommate tells the cop that the guy is going to be riding home with us and our driver is not drunk. cop tells him to mind his own business, so my roommate and i walk away from the table we were at and go back to the pool table we had been playing at.

a few minutes later the cop comes over to the table we are playing at and tells my roommate that when he is talking to someone not to interfere. he laughs and tells the cop "yeah i heard you the first time you told me and that's why we came over here and if you don't mind we are in the middle of a game so why don't you go hassle someone else" cop tells him he will hassle whomever he pleases so my roommate laughs at him and goes back to shooting pool. cop calls his partner over and they start in on the questions of how many have you had and what not. he tells the cops "ok i will tell you again, we have a designated driver i will not be driving, now go away because i am not doing anything wrong" and walks away. cop comes up and grabs his arm and tells him he is being arrested for pi so my roommate pulls his arm away and tells the cop to back off. the other cop comes up and they try to wrestle him down to the ground. they take him outside and put him in the squad car.

i walk outside and ask one of them what the deal is and they tell me he is being arrested for pi and he is lucky that he isn't getting a resisting arrest charge as well. i tell them that he isn't that drunk and the cop tells me i can join him if i want. so i tell the cop i have only had one drink and haven't even finished it yet, cop ignores me and walks away. so i call my brother who is a cop and tell him whats going on and he tells me they shouldn't be arresting him unless he is a danger to himself or others. so i walk back over to the cops and tell them this and their response is "yeah well your friend has a smart mouth"

story has nothing to do with pa. i never said it did. the only reason i mentioned it was people with too much authority will abuse it. i just think we should be limiting the powers of the government not giving them more. i think they should just make breaking the law illegal, seems like it would solve a lot of problems.

Okay, but I still have an issue with comparing healthcare to the PA, but I do understand your point. I agree that we should limit government. The one area I WANT government is the military and when protecting my life from foreign invaders and attackers. I think the PA does that, so it passes my smell test. It fails my smell test if it becomes a tool to fight crime stateside not related to foreign terrorists intent on killing innocent Americans.

The bar stuff is something I would have to hear both sides, but your version is plausible.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by Paladin

The PA does not allow warrantless searches unless you were suspected of terrorisim. All of the above searches can be done with a warrant regardless of the PA or not.

BTW, I have concerns about our government going too far also. I still want to see someone who has been targeted by the PA specifically and how it was abused. I have heard of people who claimed thye were wrongfully targeted, but so far all of them had ties to terrorsim and were not falsely accused or targeted. They are the reason we have the PA in force as a matter of fact.

Well let's see, we now have the blood check without consent, AT&T was taken to court over allowing the government to tap phone lines of American people wihout warrents, that is just off the top of my head(just woke up after drinking with friends so not all there yet).

As for people affected by the pa unless someone speaks up for them we will never know. Those people no longer have the right to speak to a lawyer, make a phone call, get their day in court, and can detained without be charged for a crime.

Because it hasn't affected me doesn't matter, what does matter is that it clearly takes away two rights granted by the bill of rights. What I find amusing the most is that they "die-hard REP" in here love this bill. The exact opposite of the REP party line of less gov and protecting the rights granted. It is supposed to be a DEM party line of more gov and less rights because they believe they know what is best for all of us.

When bush signed this act he "opened pandora's box" and now any and all rights can be taken from you, all they have to do is follow the PA guideline and use it as a stepping stone to whatever right they wish to take. Those who worry about guns being taken away guess what with the pa it is just a few sigs away from being deemed a terrorist tool and to protect the people all guns are to be turned in and the gov will protect you. Now that last part is a joke, sort of, but if can't see it coming or you will cross that bridge when you get there, it will be to late.

The pa will be the death of the of our country as we know and will lead to the start of the gov. Soon this act will be allowed by local law enforcement, with the label(or something like it) a co-op between local police and the FBI to further help in "keeping America safe". Once it makes that jump we the people will have lost 2 of the original 10 amendments, and once they gone we will never get them back. All for the illussion(sp?) of being safe.

Sorry for any misspelled words little words left out typing on a phone while still feeling buzzed from the night b4 is hard.

[Cartman]

Also to the OP you may see me online all the time due to my phone keeps me logged in, but a PM would have been nice to let me know this was here for me to answer. I only check this section time to time.

[MR TINFOIL HAT]

Originally Posted by Cartman

Well let's see, we now have the blood check without consent, AT&T was taken to court over allowing the government to tap phone lines of American people wihout warrents, that is just off the top of my head(just woke up after drinking with friends so not all there yet).

As for people affected by the pa unless someone speaks up for them we will never know. Those people no longer have the right to speak to a lawyer, make a phone call, get their day in court, and can detained without be charged for a crime.

Because it hasn't affected me doesn't matter, what does matter is that it clearly takes away two rights granted by the bill of rights. What I find amusing the most is that they "die-hard REP" in here love this bill. The exact opposite of the REP party line of less gov and protecting the rights granted. It is supposed to be a DEM party line of more gov and less rights because they believe they know what is best for all of us.

When bush signed this act he "opened pandora's box" and now any and all rights can be taken from you, all they have to do is follow the PA guideline and use it as a stepping stone to whatever right they wish to take. Those who worry about guns being taken away guess what with the pa it is just a few sigs away from being deemed a terrorist tool and to protect the people all guns are to be turned in and the gov will protect you. Now that last part is a joke, sort of, but if can't see it coming or you will cross that bridge when you get there, it will be to late.

The pa will be the death of the of our country as we know and will lead to the start of the gov. Soon this act will be allowed by local law enforcement, with the label(or something like it) a co-op between local police and the FBI to further help in "keeping America safe". Once it makes that jump we the people will have lost 2 of the original 10 amendments, and once they gone we will never get them back. All for the illussion(sp?) of being safe.

Sorry for any misspelled words little words left out typing on a phone while still feeling buzzed from the night b4 is hard.

[03trubluGT]

Originally Posted by tenacious j

couldn't you can turn this argument around on issues like health care and other government ran shit.

what specific right have you experienced an articulable loss due to socialized health care? none. so you shouldn't speak up against it until it specifically fucks you?

the argument people make about how they have been stopped 20 times in their life and nobody has ever searched their car, so if a cop asks to search your car and you aren't doing anything illegal you should just let them is nonsense.

i have been fucked with by cops on a couple different occasions and i have no criminal record. i have never been convicted of any crime but i have seen first hand the bullshit cops do because they can.

cops arrested my roommate INSIDE of a bar for public intox just because he stood up for himself to them. and they tried to get him for assaulting an officer when it was them who assaulted him and threatened to arrest me for pointing out the fact that what they were doing was fucked up. why should we willingly just give up our rights that were set up in the constitution when we have seen first hand people abuse the powers they have already?

We could apply this to anything and open up a new can of worms to be debated to no end.

Socialized health care has not gone into effect, so that arugment is moot.

Sorry to say, but you can be public intox in a bar. A bar is open to the public, just like you can get a PI in Walmart.

[tenacious j]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

We could apply this to anything and open up a new can of worms to be debated to no end.

Socialized health care has not gone into effect, so that arugment is moot.

Sorry to say, but you can be public intox in a bar. A bar is open to the public, just like you can get a PI in Walmart.

yeah, the correlation i was trying to draw was that it seemed the original question was if cartman had been affected personally by the patriot act. like if he hadn't then why was he against it. i was trying to show that you don't have to be personally affected by something to be against it.

yeah, i know you can get a pi in a bar. i was showing how cops can abuse those laws that allow for a big grey area. the pi is supposed to be used to make sure the drunk person is not a danger to himself or others. not because the cop wants to fuck with someone.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

We could apply this to anything and open up a new can of worms to be debated to no end.

Socialized health care has not gone into effect, so that arugment is moot.

Sorry to say, but you can be public intox in a bar. A bar is open to the public, just like you can get a PI in Walmart.

did I answer your question?

[cannonball996]

couple thing have happened to me, dont know if it had to due with the PA.

about 5 years ago, I was pulled over for passing the same point more then 3 times in one night, they told me they suspected me of transporting narcotics and or guns. they didnt ask to search me car, pulled me cuffed me and put me in the back of a police car. I sat there watching them pull out all the interior of my corvette, they took me to jail, about 6 in the morning I saw the judge and was released. picked up my car from the impound, it had dog fur all over it. called my lawyer, he looked into it for about a week, but determined that I had no case. I never did drugs in my life, and only ever owned 2 guns, with nothing like that in my record what so ever.

[MR TINFOIL HAT]

Here's a incident of it being abused http://uruknet.com/index.php?p=m59920&hd=&size=1&l=e

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Cartman

Well let's see, we now have the blood check without consent.

This is a state issue, not the federal PA. How are they related?

Originally Posted by Cartman

AT&T was taken to court over allowing the government to tap phone lines of American people wihout warrents, that is just off the top of my head(just woke up after drinking with friends so not all there yet).

I forget the details, how is this applied to the PA?

Originally Posted by Cartman

As for people affected by the pa unless someone speaks up for them we will never know. Those people no longer have the right to speak to a lawyer, make a phone call, get their day in court, and can detained without be charged for a crime.

So you are saying that everyone they have detained illegally (your assertion) is still detained in secret government camps? I am guessing that anyone who was illegally detained and searched would be speaking up unless they were in secret camps, right?

Originally Posted by Cartman

Because it hasn't affected me doesn't matter, what does matter is that it clearly takes away two rights granted by the bill of rights. What I find amusing the most is that they "die-hard REP" in here love this bill. The exact opposite of the REP party line of less gov and protecting the rights granted. It is supposed to be a DEM party line of more gov and less rights because they believe they know what is best for all of us.

This is a very specific bill designed to target terrorists, whether they are foreign or American. I find it funny that you are a hard core liberal who loves and trusts the government with health care, giving more of your taxes, huge bailouts of private companies, Obama deciding to fire executives of companies he has taken over, and being buddy with the UN (among many other things your hero Obama wants) but you get selective about boigger government when it comes to a specific act that is actually doing you some good and protecting you from people who would kill you!

I am conservative and want the government to do two primary things: Keep a strong military and protect me and my family from those who would kill me solely becuase I am an American. The PA does protect me, so I am for it.

The real question is why are you for ANYTHING the government wants to do when it is done by a liberal (higher taxes, bailouts, government healthcare, etc.) but not when government does something while a Republican is in office?

Originally Posted by Cartman

When bush signed this act he "opened pandora's box" and now any and all rights can be taken from you, all they have to do is follow the PA guideline and use it as a stepping stone to whatever right they wish to take. Those who worry about guns being taken away guess what with the pa it is just a few sigs away from being deemed a terrorist tool and to protect the people all guns are to be turned in and the gov will protect you. Now that last part is a joke, sort of, but if can't see it coming or you will cross that bridge when you get there, it will be to late.

I am very worried anytime the government does something. The government screws up almost everything it touches. The PA and the military is about the only thing they have actually done right. Our military speaks for itself and the PA pretty much speaks for itslef since it was enacted we have had no terrorists attacks on American soil perpetrated by Al Quaeda.

BTW, I hope you see I am not trying to politcize the attack at Ft. Hood by blaming Obama like you far left liberals did to Bush with 9/11.

Originally Posted by Cartman

The pa will be the death of the of our country as we know and will lead to the start of the gov. Soon this act will be allowed by local law enforcement, with the label(or something like it) a co-op between local police and the FBI to further help in "keeping America safe". Once it makes that jump we the people will have lost 2 of the original 10 amendments, and once they gone we will never get them back. All for the illussion(sp?) of being safe.

It is funny that thge PA will be the death of the country but you support bailouts, government healthcare, huge tax increases, and all of the other things Obama has done with the government. I wonder why that is?

Originally Posted by Cartman

Sorry for any misspelled words little words left out typing on a phone while still feeling buzzed from the night b4 is hard.

I didn't notice the difference. I kid, I kid!

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by MR TINFOIL HAT

Here's a incident of it being abused http://uruknet.com/index.php?p=m59920&hd=&size=1&l=e

Why do you care about a citizen of another country suspected of terrorism being denied rights under the Constitution?

Do you know of any other country that would care about an American they suspect of terrorism and give him the same rights as their citizens?

[AL P]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

Sorry to say, but you can be public intox in a bar. A bar is open to the public, just like you can get a PI in Walmart.

Of course you can.

Nevermind the fact that people go to a bar to become intoxicated.

So what is the problem here, people drinking in a bar or the PI law that is so onerous and open to interpretation that people actually get arrested for drinking at a bar?

This proves my point with the patriot act. While I have never been affected by it that doesn't dismiss my concern that one day it could be interpreted so broadly that I would be.

[AL P]

Originally Posted by cannonball996

couple thing have happened to me, dont know if it had to due with the PA.

about 5 years ago, I was pulled over for passing the same point more then 3 times in one night, they told me they suspected me of transporting narcotics and or guns. they didnt ask to search me car, pulled me cuffed me and put me in the back of a police car. I sat there watching them pull out all the interior of my corvette, they took me to jail, about 6 in the morning I saw the judge and was released. picked up my car from the impound, it had dog fur all over it. called my lawyer, he looked into it for about a week, but determined that I had no case. I never did drugs in my life, and only ever owned 2 guns, with nothing like that in my record what so ever.

And you were never charged with any crime I'm assuming? You should have called the ACLU. They have sued over that many times from what I have read.

[MR TINFOIL HAT]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Why do you care about a citizen of another country suspected of terrorism being denied rights under the Constitution?

Do you know of any other country that would care about an American they suspect of terrorism and give him the same rights as their citizens?

I have no problem with denying rights to a suspected terrorist, I do have a problem with torturing someone for a year who is innocent.
It just shows what can happen when they label you a terrorist. They tortured an innocent person for a YEAR just because they labeled him a terrorist. You don't see a problem with this? If the tables were turned, and they held your brother or sister coming from another country as a terrorist, then they tortured them for a year I'd bet you would be singing a different tune.

[justinsn95]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

Whoaaaa there. Taking this out of proportion are we?

I don't think he is taking anything out of proportion, by asking if you would be ok with a GPS implant. What so many people fail to realize is, once the govt has a little power, they want a little more. And a little more. And a little more. Without fail. As you can see by looking at history, the patriot act could very well end up being what leads to implanted GPS's. Never forget that all they need, is a start. Then they can add a little here, add a little there. Even if it takes em 50 years, that's not the world I want my grandchildren living in. And we can put a stop to it now, so they never have to.

[MR TINFOIL HAT]

Originally Posted by justinsn95

I don't think he is taking anything out of proportion, by asking if you would be ok with a GPS implant. What so many people fail to realize is, once the govt has a little power, they want a little more. And a little more. And a little more. Without fail. As you can see by looking at history, the patriot act could very well end up being what leads to implanted GPS's. Never forget that all they need, is a start. Then they can add a little here, add a little there. Even if it takes em 50 years, that's not the world I want my grandchildren living in. And we can put a stop to it now, so they never have to.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

[aceman85turbo]

Originally Posted by justinsn95

Even if it takes em 50 years, that's not the world I want my grandchildren living in. And we can put a stop to it now, so they never have to.

amen

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by MR TINFOIL HAT

I have no problem with denying rights to a suspected terrorist, I do have a problem with torturing someone for a year who is innocent.
It just shows what can happen when they label you a terrorist. They tortured an innocent person for a YEAR just because they labeled him a terrorist. You don't see a problem with this? If the tables were turned, and they held your brother or sister coming from another country as a terrorist, then they tortured them for a year I'd bet you would be singing a different tune.

I never saw in the article where the guy was innocent. I do not want anyone tortured who is innocent, but fighting terrorism is a dirty business.

[MR TINFOIL HAT]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I never saw in the article where the guy was innocent. I do not want anyone tortured who is innocent, but fighting terrorism is a dirty business.

Oh, I agree it's a dirty business. They released him after a year, so I'm assuming he was innocent.
Edit. I just re read the article, and it said he was released with no charges.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by MR TINFOIL HAT

Oh, I agree it's a dirty business. They released him after a year, so I'm assuming he was innocent.
Edit. I just re read the article, and it said he was released with no charges.

Okay, that's fair enough. I won't concede he was innocent though I can understand someone thinking that. I have seen alot of guilty people not get charged fro one reason or another.

[MR TINFOIL HAT]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Okay, that's fair enough. I won't concede he was innocent though I can understand someone thinking that. I have seen alot of guilty people not get charged fro one reason or another.

I see your point as well, and you definitely could be right.

[03trubluGT]

Originally Posted by cannonball996

couple thing have happened to me, dont know if it had to due with the PA.

about 5 years ago, I was pulled over for passing the same point more then 3 times in one night, they told me they suspected me of transporting narcotics and or guns. they didnt ask to search me car, pulled me cuffed me and put me in the back of a police car. I sat there watching them pull out all the interior of my corvette, they took me to jail, about 6 in the morning I saw the judge and was released. picked up my car from the impound, it had dog fur all over it. called my lawyer, he looked into it for about a week, but determined that I had no case. I never did drugs in my life, and only ever owned 2 guns, with nothing like that in my record what so ever.

Where was this and what agency?

[03trubluGT]

Originally Posted by Cartman

Well let's see, we now have the blood check without consent, AT&T was taken to court over allowing the government to tap phone lines of American people wihout warrents, that is just off the top of my head(just woke up after drinking with friends so not all there yet).

As for people affected by the pa unless someone speaks up for them we will never know. Those people no longer have the right to speak to a lawyer, make a phone call, get their day in court, and can detained without be charged for a crime.

Because it hasn't affected me doesn't matter, what does matter is that it clearly takes away two rights granted by the bill of rights. What I find amusing the most is that they "die-hard REP" in here love this bill. The exact opposite of the REP party line of less gov and protecting the rights granted. It is supposed to be a DEM party line of more gov and less rights because they believe they know what is best for all of us.

When bush signed this act he "opened pandora's box" and now any and all rights can be taken from you, all they have to do is follow the PA guideline and use it as a stepping stone to whatever right they wish to take. Those who worry about guns being taken away guess what with the pa it is just a few sigs away from being deemed a terrorist tool and to protect the people all guns are to be turned in and the gov will protect you. Now that last part is a joke, sort of, but if can't see it coming or you will cross that bridge when you get there, it will be to late.

The pa will be the death of the of our country as we know and will lead to the start of the gov. Soon this act will be allowed by local law enforcement, with the label(or something like it) a co-op between local police and the FBI to further help in "keeping America safe". Once it makes that jump we the people will have lost 2 of the original 10 amendments, and once they gone we will never get them back. All for the illussion(sp?) of being safe.

Sorry for any misspelled words little words left out typing on a phone while still feeling buzzed from the night b4 is hard.

1. Blood warrants are still signed by a magistrate.

2. What in the PA makes it legal for the accused to forfiet right to counsel?????

3. I have no party affiliation, and regularly vote for the best person. I've NEVER voted straight ticket..

[03trubluGT]

Originally Posted by Slowhand

So something not directly affecting me makes it less wrong? Interesting theory there.

I'm so vocal about it because of the potential for abuse. Did you not see the list of "domestic terrorists" that our government released earlier this year? That right there attaches the word "terrorist" to any number individuals that in reality have nothing to do with terrorism. They've got the terrorist label on citizens now and because of the Patriot Act they've got their tools to spy on the American people. Dissent suddenly becomes a much more risky prospect when they can throw the label "terrorist" on you for just about anything and get a wiretap going.

Admitting misuse and taking corrective action? The damage has already been done by then, hombre. That doesn't change the fact that someone's constitutional rights has been violated.

I do fully understand the potential for misuse.

I just don't go around threatening my country, or scheming crimes, so I'm really not worried.

"My rights, my rights!" Gimme a break. Would you protect the rights of the evil so that you can sleep at night?

[justinsn95]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I never saw in the article where the guy was innocent. I do not want anyone tortured who is innocent, but fighting terrorism is a dirty business.

Eh, the methods of torture that they use... idk. They likely didn't inflict any physical harm on him. I seem to remember hearing something about sleep deprivation, being forced to be on your knees all day, things like that. Hell we even got a sample of the music they made em listen to. Now if you were to go to the torture chamber of the enemy we are fighting, I think you would find it far less humane.

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

I just don't go around threatening my country, or scheming crimes, so I'm really not worried.

You're right. You don't. So er.. you are everyone that lives here? This is the united states of 03trubluGT? That's kinda like saying that you wouldn't carry a gun into a bad neighborhood. Cause hell, you wouldn't rob someone, right?

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

"My rights, my rights!" Gimme a break. Would you protect the rights of the evil so that you can sleep at night?

It's all about a compromise. In this case, the american people had to take one for the team. Now if all this terrorism bullshit were to ever come to an end, I would have to insist that they dismantle their little patriot act. But will they? Unlikely. That would be trying to grab some power out of the hands of the government. They'll never give it up.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by justinsn95

Eh, the methods of torture that they use... idk. They likely didn't inflict any physical harm on him. I seem to remember hearing something about sleep deprivation, being forced to be on your knees all day, things like that. Hell we even got a sample of the music they made em listen to. Now if you were to go to the torture chamber of the enemy we are fighting, I think you would find it far less humane.

I have not seen many liberals admit that. Most of you liberal types focus in on how terrible America is and defend countries that exterminate their own people and have no respect for us. It is one of the reasons I realized about 10-12 years ago that liberals thought differently than I do and why I couldn't support the Dems who have far left liberals leading their party.

[justinsn95]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I have not seen many liberals admit that. Most of you liberal types

lol, didn't get a look at my sig, I guess? The only lib I have in me ends in "ertarian", which pretty much puts me at the exact opposite of a liberal.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by justinsn95

lol, didn't get a look at my sig, I guess? The only lib I have in me ends in "ertarian", which pretty much puts me at the exact opposite of a liberal.

There are very few who admit the liberal tag. I include most of the "do what ever you want to include smoking dope, killing unborn children, gays marrying, and anything I don't care about" in the liberal category. Does that describe you?

If not, then nevermind.

[justinsn95]

You left out wanting to dissolve our borders so we can all be one big happy dope smoking gay marrying family. Liberals ought to be seen by everyone as an enemy of the country. The fact that they are pretty much essentially all hippies (or at least have the hippies on their side) is evidence in and of itself that they have no business trying to say what goes around here.

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by Paladin

This is a state issue, not the federal PA. How are they related?



I forget the details, how is this applied to the PA?



So you are saying that everyone they have detained illegally (your assertion) is still detained in secret government camps? I am guessing that anyone who was illegally detained and searched would be speaking up unless they were in secret camps, right?



This is a very specific bill designed to target terrorists, whether they are foreign or American. I find it funny that you are a hard core liberal who loves and trusts the government with health care, giving more of your taxes, huge bailouts of private companies, Obama deciding to fire executives of companies he has taken over, and being buddy with the UN (among many other things your hero Obama wants) but you get selective about boigger government when it comes to a specific act that is actually doing you some good and protecting you from people who would kill you!

I am conservative and want the government to do two primary things: Keep a strong military and protect me and my family from those who would kill me solely becuase I am an American. The PA does protect me, so I am for it.

The real question is why are you for ANYTHING the government wants to do when it is done by a liberal (higher taxes, bailouts, government healthcare, etc.) but not when government does something while a Republican is in office?



I am very worried anytime the government does something. The government screws up almost everything it touches. The PA and the military is about the only thing they have actually done right. Our military speaks for itself and the PA pretty much speaks for itslef since it was enacted we have had no terrorists attacks on American soil perpetrated by Al Quaeda.

BTW, I hope you see I am not trying to politcize the attack at Ft. Hood by blaming Obama like you far left liberals did to Bush with 9/11.



It is funny that thge PA will be the death of the country but you support bailouts, government healthcare, huge tax increases, and all of the other things Obama has done with the government. I wonder why that is?



I didn't notice the difference. I kid, I kid!

1st one by the states wasn't allowed until the PA passed, being forced to give blood without consent takes away your 5th rights to not incriminate yourself, this never was allowed before the PA yet the states are slowing starting to adapt parts of it for use in everyday police work. If you, a cop, can't see that then you are one of problem cops we have in this country.

the PA allows for wire taps with out warrants for terrorist suspects, the government was tapping everybody's line they could get without warrants. big brother watching everything you do and everything you say, glad we live in a free country

well as for those detained, we may never know who they are or why, if they are guilty of anything that might be terrorism. The PA makes it clear that they have no rights if the governemt says they are suspected terrorist. and if you or anybody else really thinks they tell us, before the PA, of people taken with or with out reason you are a fool.

the biggest problem with not being allowed to defend yourself or have the gov prove you are guilty in any court means if they say you did it or are going to do it, then you did it or got caught before you could do it. lets just take the old piece of paper signed by a bunch of old racist white men and burn it, because it means nothing with this bill.

as for me being a liberal, for health care by obama or whatever else you stated, find me a post where I have ever once backed any of that... you can't. you fall back to calling anybody a liberal that doesn't like bush, who was one of the worst POTUS ever, when in fact bush was more liberal than clinton could ever hope to be. bush did more in his 8yrs to make big brother bigger, than all the libs have since the two party system. this health care bill you claim I am for, which proves you are more off the rocker than RP, has life and is more than likely going to pass because bush opened the door, not to mention did so little for the people that the people will vote for anything that is anti bush policy. Don't get me wrong, I like bush I think he would be a blast to hang out with, but as POTUS he wasn't great as you claim.

the PA just failed for the families of those in fort hood, care to rethink that now?

as for anything from the government beyond controling armed services, trade, making laws(that don't take away any rights or freedom) I want nothing else from them. I did not back the bailout of the banks, I did for GM but that has more to do with AMERICAN jobs than any other reason.

you are just putting your own thoughts about what you THINK I like yet find where I did any of this backing high taxes, bail outs(I stated the GM and reasons), or anything else. IT doesn't matter who is in office what party they are in, if they try to control my life more than they do now then I am against it. People like you who are sheep following bllindly to the "REP" party line ( which is the new REP party line and not the old one, which now belongs to the a 3rd party LIB party but will never have a real shot at POTUS) see great things from bush when you will find it hard to find anybody on the outside looking in say anything great about his terms. the only people saying that are you and your new REP nut jobs.

we are left with two party's wanting the same thing but go about it in different ways, the REP want total control and started off the PA, the DEM want total control and use the REP corrupt dealings with Oil companies as a way to get people behind them. both parties are tied the banks so that is a wash, but both want big gov. the old school REP wanted little gov and let the PEOPLE run their country. So sad how far we have fallen.

if you want to call me a liberal to make it better than go ahead, I will say that I wish we could have had clinton for 8 more years, he was the best REP POTUS we have had since Ronnie, and yes I know he is a DEM but look at his terms and he is more REP than bush sr or jr will ever be. Yet you all say he is one of the worst, he lowered taxes, for a bit, had the first surplus in forever, we were on a huge upswing. He had faults sure, all do, the whole black hawk down thing was a big one, but policy wise you all should worship his term. You claim to be REP yet you have supported policies that are far from it.

as for the PA stops osama and his merry men and you are fine with that, is making an excuse for it. It was supposed to stop all forms of terrorism including domestic, it failed now we need it removed and close that door before we walk all the way thru it.

but I am serious I want to see where I backed obama, health care, higher taxes, etc...

[Cartman]

Originally Posted by 03trubluGT

1. Blood warrants are still signed by a magistrate.

2. What in the PA makes it legal for the accused to forfiet right to counsel?????

3. I have no party affiliation, and regularly vote for the best person. I've NEVER voted straight ticket..

before the magistrate would sign off was if there was an accident, and not sure but I think somebody had to be either seriously hurt or killed for them to sign off on it, now just being pulled over they have one on call that signs it. that just took away your 5th. As for why it is not an issue for the accident, that is serious crime against others and the rules are different. but just for DUI or DWI depending on your state, while wrong and can be deadly still not a, for lack of better word, serious crime. And b4 all you start yelling about so and so dying or hurting others, understand I am not saying DUI is ok, but if that is all they have you on based on the laws we have then you have the right to not admit your guilt and give them proof by a blood test. the system while not perfect works and works well.

the PA states you have be detained without charges brought, with out legal aid, without your right to a speedy trial. no thanks I want my day in court and let the facts speak for themselves. the PA gives the gov the ability to take anybody they deem as a terrorist or might be a threat to the country. now by a threat it could be anything those in charge don't agree with and or dislike, and while you commited no crime or intend to if they say you did or will do then you are guilty. I know that is taking it off the far end, but people are people and sooner or later this will start happening. People who crave power and access to this law to use it will do so in their climb to the top. if you remove it now we can still work towards a safer country by just putting those in charge of the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc on the same level and access for info between the offices easier and less fueding. in cases where one denies others and something happens then charge that person with a crime.

as for party, I vote for who I think will make a good or great POTUS based off the choices i have but if you listen to hardcore REP in here I am a lib and vote straight ticket and I want the gov to run every bit of my life.


also the funniest thing about the PA, brought by both rep and dem but asked for by bush, is 100% against the REP party line, yet those in here love it....lol..