Questions: Specifically for Chris

[Monsoon X]

Chris I made this thread because of your comments in the life after death thread.
So I'm gonn ask a series of questions: If at any point you don't think this is cool, I'll delete the thread.

Here is my first question and with out an answer we can't really go any further.

Do you believe that God exists?

[chris]

This should be interesting.

Yes, God exists.

[Monsoon X]

Okay Great! You do believe in God.


Do you believe in the Bible as the divine word of God given to us through Godly men?

[chris]

I am not sure. If I believed that completely, then we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

My question with this is why is the Bible correct and other religions "holy books" incorrect? The plain fact is that I don't have all the information that I want. Its out there but I haven't taken the time to do the research. It would probably take years to research, if I ever got the answers I wanted.

I am not willing to say yet that Christian are right and the Hindus, Buddists, Jews, etc, etc, are wrong. I think all the religions are talking about the same God though, with very few exceptions.

Based on my current knowledge, the Bible has the highest possiblity of being the word of God. So thats a very complicated answer to an easy question.

-Chris

[Monsoon X]

Have you read my thread on the Bible? Try reading that and tell me what you think.

Now for the "other religions". If other religions were talking about the same God, then God wouldn't have gotten so angry at the children of Israel when they worshipped other Gods. (Read the OT, it's evidenced time and again that God got angry when his people did this)

[DarkWolf]

My thoughts on other religions talking about the same God are akin to advertising. This is going to be a very simple explaination to a complicated subject, but here goes:

The easiest way to get your message to everyone is to broadcast it to as wide an audience as possible. God, I would hope, would want as many people to be saved as possible, so I believe he visited various cultures to spread his word, not just one small group in one small part of the world. Thus I feel that all religions are based upon the word of God, but because we as humans are flawed, the various religions all have a slightly different viewpoint, and a slightly different interpretation of the message.

I think the gods referred to in the OT are the gods of polytheistic religions. Even polytheistic religions have a Creator. That would be God. The other dieties are what Christianity refers to as Angels, however, the cultures misinterpereted the meaning of Angels, and began to worship them as gods. That is why I believe God was angry. The message was misinterpreted in one way or another, however the general idea is still intact.

[chris]

I am kinda with Darkwolf on this. I think there have been so many mis-interpretations and possbily some done on purpose where it would be impossible to figure out what really went on back in the day.

Its sorta like the party game where you tell a secret to one person and they pass it on and by the 10th, its been mutated. Just think of doing this over thousands of years. Throw in people who have their own agendas and then who knows what you will get.

I have honestly started re-investigating some of my beliefs and some are leaning more towards Christian beliefs, but there are still too many things that don't jive. I think it would be ALOT simplier if all Christians believed the same things about how literal to take the bible. But with some believing it is exactly as stated and some say that alot of the passages are stories to get the point across and aother all in between, where do you draw the lines?

-Chris

[Monsoon X]

You draw the lines with just believing. Our God calls for a monotheistic relationship beliving in His existence and by believing in His Son, Christ Jesus. What I'm trying to get you guys to see is that salvation isn't by just beliving in God, you only get to heaven through your belief in Jesus and being baptized in his name.

Matt 15:13 Every plant which my Father in heaven has not put in the earth, will be taken up by the roots.

John 14:16 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[chris]

I know how one is saved and reaches heavan. On that subject I have done my homework. What amazes me is how many people DON'T know what it takes to get to Heaven. They think leading a good life is all that is necessary. Most fail at that when you get down to it anyway.

I know its as simple as saying and believing that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and try to lead a sinless life, but I can't honestly say that yet. If I did right now, it would be a lie, I just dont feel that. Alot of people don't have a problem with saying this even though they don't quite believe it or even understand what it means, but I try to be honest with myself and others.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by chris
I know how one is saved and reaches heavan. On that subject I have done my homework. What amazes me is how many people DON'T know what it takes to get to Heaven. They think leading a good life is all that is necessary. Most fail at that when you get down to it anyway.

I know its as simple as saying and believing that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and try to lead a sinless life, but I can't honestly say that yet. If I did right now, it would be a lie, I just dont feel that. Alot of people don't have a problem with saying this even though they don't quite believe it or even understand what it means, but I try to be honest with myself and others.

It's all good. (I should've put a smiley in my post I think)

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
You draw the lines with just believing. Our God calls for a monotheistic relationship beliving in His existence and by believing in His Son, Christ Jesus. What I'm trying to get you guys to see is that salvation isn't by just beliving in God, you only get to heaven through your belief in Jesus and being baptized in his name.

Matt 15:13 Every plant which my Father in heaven has not put in the earth, will be taken up by the roots.

John 14:16 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Here's where a contradiction within the Bible arises. I don't have my Bible with me, so I can't quote specific passages, but the first 3 or 4 books of the NT, it is only within John that Jesus is noted saying you can only be saved through him.

However, in the other books, Jesus is noted as saying that only through his father (God) can you be saved.

I wish I had my Bible with me so I could provide exact quotes for you. But this is a subject that I've had many debates over as well. If you're to believe the Bible is absolute, then which passage are you supposed to believe and which are you supposed to discard, since they give two possible paths to salvation.

There is either a contradiction there, or there is more than one way to salvation. If I remember when I get home tonight, I'll get the actual passages and add them here.

[Monsoon X]

Although it's made pretty darn clear who saves you please provide the particular scriptures you speak of so we can discuss specifics. :)

[speedpro50]

I would like to see your verses DarkWolf as I no not 1 verse that says Jesus Christ is NOT the only way.

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:9-10
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Acts 2:21-22
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know...

Acts 4:12-13
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 16:30-31
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ephesians 2:7-9
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:4-6
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour...

John 1:29 (a quote from John the baptist, not John the Apostle)
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is just a few scatter over the NT for you to read. Let me know if you come up with anything!

Lee

[DarkWolf]

Will do :)

[Monsoon X]

AMEN Lee!

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by speedpro50
A bunch of NT passages

I notice you, like everyone else when it comes to this subject ... left out Matthew, Mark, and Luke ... and in each, Jesus is noted as saying that only through his father can we be saved.

As I said, I'll provide the passages when I get home.

[speedpro50]

OK, here goes then darkwolf.

MATTHEW 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

There is one of many many more!

Lee

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by speedpro50
OK, here goes then darkwolf.

MATTHEW 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

There is one of many many more!

Lee

Keep reading. It's when Jesus is actually speaking. If you can't find it, I'll have it up later tonight.

[speedpro50]

I will let you post it when you find it. I was simply pointing out that in the other gospels it does declare Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

Lee

[DarkWolf]

Wow ... I feel foolish. All this buildup, to nothing. I'm staying with some friends during the week (their house is much closer to where I work), and am home on the weekends. Actually, I'll be back to my place on Wednesday evening.

They've got a Bible, which I thought I was going to be able to quote from, but it's a paraphrased Bible, and it's way different than my KJV. I can't even find passages that have already been quoted here, because all the wording is whacky.

Here's a quote: "The book you have in your hands is a paraphrase of the Bible. What does paraphrase mean? To paraphrase is to say something in different words than the author used. It is a restatement of an author's thoughts, using different words than he did."

In otherwords, it's completely off the wall. There's no verse, there's no scripture. It's like reading a story, not like reading the Bible.

So, I will post up the passages I'm referring to, but since I cannot find them in this Bible, I will post them up on Wednesday, when I can quote them from my KJV.

[speedpro50]

Good excuse DarkWolf.....j/k!

Lee

[The Punisher]

Here you go Darkwolf, I dont think you'll find what your looking for.:) but its worth the look.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/
The is a link to an online Bible in all differnt versions.

[DarkWolf]

I'm trying to go there, but the link is timing out. It might be the proxy at work. I'll try it again later this evening.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by speedpro50
Good excuse DarkWolf.....j/k!

Lee

I say it again...j/k:)

[DarkWolf]

Ok. Whoops! :D Heh. Sorry about that.

Here we go:

Bible: KJV printed in 1957, and given to my father in 1964.

Mark 10:17
And when he was gone forth in to the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
[18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God.
[19] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Hunour thy father and mother.
[20] And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
[21] Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lakest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
[22] And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
[23] And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
[24] And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
[25] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[26] And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
[27] And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


Now, I know this is before the resurrection. And I'm only using the quotes from St. Mark, because they are only slightly different in St. Matthew, and St. Luke (Chap 19 in St. Matthew, and I believe Chap 12 in St. Luke, though I could be wrong there).

The main reason I quote from before the resurrection is that there is no mention that only through Jesus can you be saved, even after the accounts of the resurrection. However, in St. John, it's all over the place that "In Jesus name", "in my name", etc. Even before the resurrection.

So my point is, 3 of 4 say one thing, while 1 of 4 says something else ... yet that 1 is the one quoted, and adhered to as the rule. Being as they are all 4 in the same Bible, are we to believe only the one, and leave the other 3 to be contradictions ... but then again, we can't have the Bible containing any contradictions ... so we get back to my earlier, and central point that the Bible is not meant to have everything be taken in the literal. That it is open for interpretation.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by DarkWolf
Ok. Whoops! :D Heh. Sorry about that.

Now, I know this is before the resurrection. And I'm only using the quotes from St. Mark, because they are only slightly different in St. Matthew, and St. Luke (Chap 19 in St. Matthew, and I believe Chap 12 in St. Luke, though I could be wrong there).

The main reason I quote from before the resurrection is that there is no mention that only through Jesus can you be saved, even after the accounts of the resurrection. However, in St. John, it's all over the place that "In Jesus name", "in my name", etc. Even before the resurrection.

So my point is, 3 of 4 say one thing, while 1 of 4 says something else ... yet that 1 is the one quoted, and adhered to as the rule. Being as they are all 4 in the same Bible, are we to believe only the one, and leave the other 3 to be contradictions ... but then again, we can't have the Bible containing any contradictions ... so we get back to my earlier, and central point that the Bible is not meant to have everything be taken in the literal. That it is open for interpretation.

First of all you have to come to understand the Trinity. God is the Father and Creator, Jesus is the Son and redeemer, The Holy Spirit is the comforter. Jesus came to teach and save. He came to live among the flesh and resist all the tempatations of the flesh so he could be a pure and clean sacrifice for us. He talked about his Father alot. Wouldn't you?

If people would read the Bible as a whole on their own and go to regular Church services and hear other things being taught that they could go back and study on, then they could see the Bible as the complete book that it is. Instead folks see one or two flecks of scripture and see contradictions. And you still haven't shown a contradiction.

Nevermind the many scriptures saying that Christ is the way to salvation. Baptism connects us with the death burial and resurrection of Christ and saves us through Jesus Christ who is our permanent high preist. God forgives us with grace because Jesus attoned for our sins with his own shed blood.

DW-Get a study Bible and do a search on the words Salvation,saved,baptism and you'll see the numerous passages after the resurrection, that tell us that God expects us to gain salvation by believing in his son who was perfect and without sin, and being baptised in His name IN WATER for the remission of sins. Jesus said none get to the father 'cept it be through me.John 14:6

BTW-As far as Jesus saying that none are good cept the Father. I assume you try to make the point that Jesus was admitting that he isn't good because he said that? Go read John 10:30

[speedpro50]

Jesus was God in the flesh.

What are you trying to point out to me?

Lee

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
And you still haven't shown a contradiction.

Jesus said none get to the father 'cept it be through me.John 14:6

BTW-As far as Jesus saying that none are good cept the Father. I assume you try to make the point that Jesus was admitting that he isn't good because he said that? Go read John 10:30

Actually, I'm not trying to show a contradiction, just trying to show why I feel the Bible is open for interpretation, because 3 books say one thing, while the forth says something different. Were I to feel the Bible is absolute and without question, then that would certainly be a contradiction. But because I believe it's open for interpretation, it's not a contradiction, merely 4 mens own interpretations on what Jesus said and did.

And you keep quoting the book of John :)

And Speedpro, I know that some believe Jesus was God in the flesh, while others do not believe that, but believe that he was the son of God only, that he was merely a man with a divine father. I'm not going to delve into that subject. Besides, if Jesus was God in the flesh, then wouldn't that mean that through God we are saved? ;)

[Monsoon X]

DW- Does God actually save us? Yes and No. :) God gives us grace through the belief of his son and being Baptised in Jesus' name for the forgiveness of our sins. Baptism connects us with Jesus' death and ressurection therefore saving us. Remember the animal sacrifices of the OT? Well Jesus' is a permanent priest a permanent sacrifice for us. And through that Jesus' saves us from God's judgment.

Scripture outside of John: 1 Peter 3:21,Romans 3:24,Romans 5:1,Ro 5:11,Ro 5:21,1 Cor 8:4-6..............Believe me Jay, I could go on and on. If you need more scripture.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf

And Speedpro, I know that some believe Jesus was God in the flesh, while others do not believe that, but believe that he was the son of God only, that he was merely a man with a divine father. I'm not going to delve into that subject. Besides, if Jesus was God in the flesh, then wouldn't that mean that through God we are saved? ;)

Darkwolf, I would love for you to show me in the scripture how Jesus is not God in the Flesh. I would also agree that God is a part of salvation, duh. If it were not for the grace of GOD then none of us would be here, certainly not in a position to have faith and be saved. Same thing goes for the Holy Spirit's work in redemption. If the Holy Spirit (also God) didn't call His people and regenerate our spirit, then would could never even have faith. A dead man can't have faith. A dead man can't believe. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are you saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..."

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by DarkWolf


Actually, I'm not trying to show a contradiction, just trying to show why I feel the Bible is open for interpretation, because 3 books say one thing, while the forth says something different. Were I to feel the Bible is absolute and without question, then that would certainly be a contradiction. But because I believe it's open for interpretation, it's not a contradiction, merely 4 mens own interpretations on what Jesus said and did.

And you keep quoting the book of John :)

And Speedpro, I know that some believe Jesus was God in the flesh, while others do not believe that, but believe that he was the son of God only, that he was merely a man with a divine father. I'm not going to delve into that subject. Besides, if Jesus was God in the flesh, then wouldn't that mean that through God we are saved? ;) Yes the Bible is open for interpretation. That is why we have so many different religons and etc. But the truth of the Bible's entirety lies in God. The closer you get to God, the closer you understand what God intended. And the gray area that so many people see will not be so much gray to you anymore.

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by 281R
Yes the Bible is open for interpretation. That is why we have so many different religons and etc. But the truth of the Bible's entirety lies in God. The closer you get to God, the closer you understand what God intended. And the gray area that so many people see will not be so much gray to you anymore.

Something we agree on :) Albiet a little differently in our execution of those beliefs though.

Originally posted by speedpro50
Darkwolf, I would love for you to show me in the scripture how Jesus is not God in the Flesh.

It all depends on how the reader interprets the Bible. Jesus constantly refers to God as a seperate entity. He calls him his father, and says that he will sit at his fathers right hand, etc. One could certainly interpret that to mean Jesus was not God in the flesh. It's all based on your perspective.

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Scripture outside of John: 1 Peter 3:21,Romans 3:24,Romans 5:1,Ro 5:11,Ro 5:21,1 Cor 8:4-6..............Believe me Jay, I could go on and on. If you need more scripture.

I know that it's also elsewhere in the Bible. That's neither here nor there. The simple fact is two different things were quoted. Regardless of what else it says in the Bible, if one is to believe that the Bible is absolute, and without need for interpretation, then this would be cause for dissent, as this would be a contradiction in terms. Even one, tiny, miniscule contradiction puts the validity of the entirety of the rest of the text into question.

However, if one understands that the Bible is open for interpretation, one does not see this as a contradiction in terms. I think we're going around in circles here, because whether you see it or not, we are actually in agreement on this issue of the Bible being open for interpretation. Where we dissagree is on just what exactly is the meaning of the Bible. And by meaning, I don't say that as "What it means" in it's literal sense ... but "What does it teach us, and how important is it to salvation?"

Because of your religion, you believe the Bible to be the word of God and as such is without question, though maybe certain areas are left open for interpretation. I believe that it is part of God's message to us ... a piece in the puzzle, and while it is an important book, it is not infallible by the mere fact that it was scribed by man. Man is an imperfect being.

And this is why I believe that other religions speak of God in the same way as Christianity speaks of God. Whether they are monotheistic religions, or polytheistic religions ... because as I stated before, the "gods" in polytheistic religions, are what Christians refer to as angels. Even polytheistic religions recognize one God, one Creator, one Great Spirit, or whatever you want to call it. It's simply various cultures interpretation of God's original message to these cultures. Though the message is the same, or very nearly the same, the interpretation is different. Who are we to say that one is right and all the rest are wrong?

It's a defense mechanism that we cling to beliefs that we've had for a vast majority of our lives, that we don't, or can't accept the possibility that what we believe may not be the whole truth ... that maybe we only have a piece of the puzzle. Instead we try to rationalize away any alternate beliefs, both to ourselves, and to others ... even to those who present these alternate beliefs ... thus strengthening our own beliefs.

It's this defense mechanism that causes the distrust, and even outright hatred of our fellow man. It's this defense mechanism that has fueled wars to wipe out those who believe differently (and understand that I'm not pointing the finger at any one particular religion, as many religions are guilty of this offense). I don't know if you realize how fortunate I feel to be having this discussion with you all, that it's being conducted in a civilized manner, and there's no hostility towards anyone. I'm somewhat of a junky when it comes to religious discussions ... I always have an urge to join in. I tend to shy away from them more often now, because I've been in far too many that quickly break down, and become a hotbed of insults, and threats, from all sides, directed at all other sides. We all have this defense mechanism, but I feel that we here are able to put it aside ... or at least suppress it to allow this sharing of ideas. And that is something I don't come across too often.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf

TO SPEEDPRO:

It all depends on how the reader interprets the Bible. Jesus constantly refers to God as a seperate entity. He calls him his father, and says that he will sit at his fathers right hand, etc. One could certainly interpret that to mean Jesus was not God in the flesh. It's all based on your perspective.

TO JC:

I know that it's also elsewhere in the Bible. That's neither here nor there. The simple fact is two different things were quoted. Regardless of what else it says in the Bible, if one is to believe that the Bible is absolute, and without need for interpretation, then this would be cause for dissent, as this would be a contradiction in terms. Even one, tiny, miniscule contradiction puts the validity of the entirety of the rest of the text into question.

However, if one understands that the Bible is open for interpretation, one does not see this as a contradiction in terms. I think we're going around in circles here, because whether you see it or not, we are actually in agreement on this issue of the Bible being open for interpretation. Where we dissagree is on just what exactly is the meaning of the Bible. And by meaning, I don't say that as "What it means" in it's literal sense ... but "What does it teach us, and how important is it to salvation?"

Because of your religion, you believe the Bible to be the word of God and as such is without question, though maybe certain areas are left open for interpretation. I believe that it is part of God's message to us ... a piece in the puzzle, and while it is an important book, it is not infallible by the mere fact that it was scribed by man. Man is an imperfect being.

And this is why I believe that other religions speak of God in the same way as Christianity speaks of God. Whether they are monotheistic religions, or polytheistic religions ... because as I stated before, the "gods" in polytheistic religions, are what Christians refer to as angels. Even polytheistic religions recognize one God, one Creator, one Great Spirit, or whatever you want to call it. It's simply various cultures interpretation of God's original message to these cultures. Though the message is the same, or very nearly the same, the interpretation is different. Who are we to say that one is right and all the rest are wrong?

It's a defense mechanism that we cling to beliefs that we've had for a vast majority of our lives, that we don't, or can't accept the possibility that what we believe may not be the whole truth ... that maybe we only have a piece of the puzzle. Instead we try to rationalize away any alternate beliefs, both to ourselves, and to others ... even to those who present these alternate beliefs ... thus strengthening our own beliefs.

It's this defense mechanism that causes the distrust, and even outright hatred of our fellow man. It's this defense mechanism that has fueled wars to wipe out those who believe differently (and understand that I'm not pointing the finger at any one particular religion, as many religions are guilty of this offense). I don't know if you realize how fortunate I feel to be having this discussion with you all, that it's being conducted in a civilized manner, and there's no hostility towards anyone. I'm somewhat of a junky when it comes to religious discussions ... I always have an urge to join in. I tend to shy away from them more often now, because I've been in far too many that quickly break down, and become a hotbed of insults, and threats, from all sides, directed at all other sides. We all have this defense mechanism, but I feel that we here are able to put it aside ... or at least suppress it to allow this sharing of ideas. And that is something I don't come across too often.

OK, DW. Here a few things that you need to consider.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In your case you are simply divinding the truth incorrectly. Without the Holy Spirit in you, a person cannot rightly divide the truth. It is by the Holy Spirit that we learn what the Bible says to us.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I understand that probably much of the Bible doesn't match up for you or make since. Praise the Lord that it is not a requirement to understand ALL things before you are saved.

The verse above about no scripture being of any private interpretation tells us 3 things.

1--Don't decide all by yourself that any verse means something. People say, "Well, I think this verse means this". Not a good or smart thing.

2--The Holy Spirit is the ultimate interpreter of all scripture. A Christian should allow the Holy Spirit to be the teacher, not even MAN. Men let us down and mislead others.

3--Scripture always agrees with scripture. To many people take one verse (say what they THINK it says) and run with it.

The truth of the matter is that (of course) scripture is open to interpretation, but my interpretation or yours is invalid and means nothing. It is a waste of time for me to sit down and try to figure out what I think something means.

------> By the way, when Jesus said none is good but God, what he was really saying was, "Hey discples, quit looking at me as a man. I am God, all you are seeing is Jesus in the flesh. I am God in the flesh."

I hope this helps!

Lee

[DarkWolf]

"The verse above about no scripture being of any private interpretation tells us 3 things."

That, to me says that you must find the truth for yourself. You have to let God direct you to the path he has chosen for you ... even if that path isn't Christian. But who knows? None of us really do for sure. For all we know, the Hopi indians have the true religion.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by DarkWolf

That, to me says that you must find the truth for yourself. You have to let God direct you to the path he has chosen for you ... even if that path isn't Christian. But who knows? None of us really do for sure. For all we know, the Hopi indians have the true religion.

No DW. God is Christianity. God sent us his Son, Jesus. Yes you must let God/Holy Spirit direct you to the path. but make no mistake, the path has Jesus on it. Any other religion that teaches otherwise is false. That we DO know FOR SURE.

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
No DW. God is Christianity. God sent us his Son, Jesus. Yes you must let God/Holy Spirit direct you to the path. but make no mistake, the path has Jesus on it. Any other religion that teaches otherwise is false. That we DO know FOR SURE.

No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf
"The verse above about no scripture being of any private interpretation tells us 3 things."

That, to me says that you must find the truth for yourself. You have to let God direct you to the path he has chosen for you ... even if that path isn't Christian. But who knows? None of us really do for sure. For all we know, the Hopi indians have the true religion.

No sir. The reason I said 3 things, is because I have carefully compared the text to the rest of the Word of God, so I don't fall into the trap of creating my own meaning.

Lee

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by DarkWolf


No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.

Well it all comes down to if you believe in God and the Bible. If not then you're right, one will not believe that Christianity is the right way.


But we who Believe in God know where his word is contained, and we know in whom our salvation lies. JESUS

Because anything is open to interpretation, even the Bible. But you have to comprehend it as a complete work, not in excerpts taken here and there.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf


No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.

Before talling me what I know and don't know you should be careful. There are some things we can know for sure.

Romans 8:15-17
I John 3:14
I John 4:13
I John 5:13,15
and the list goes on and on. Believers know some things unbelievers do not and that is a fact. If the Lord Jesus has never spoken to heart and called you son, I understand your not being able to see these things as the truth they are.

Lee

[DarkWolf]

Whether or not I believe the way you do is irrelevant. The fact is, you believe you know. But in all truth, you don't know for sure. None of us does. You want to believe that you know for sure. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just stating that none of us knows for sure, all that we can do is believe what we believe. But don't confuse belief as a confirmation of truth.

Also, you have no idea whether or not Jesus or God has spoken to my heart ... please don't presume to.

[speedpro50]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DarkWolf
Whether or not I believe the way you do is irrelevant. The fact is, you [B]believe you know. But in all truth, you don't know for sure. None of us does. You want to believe that you know for sure. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just stating that none of us knows for sure, all that we can do is believe what we believe. But don't confuse belief as a confirmation of truth.

Also, you have no idea whether or not Jesus or God has spoken to my heart ... please don't presume to.

You are simply incorrect. I put my faith and belief in what I know to be true. A Christians faith (if they know anything) is based on fact not fiction. Fact is what we can KNOW. I know for a fact I am saved and will one day die and go to heaven unless Jesus comes back first! That is a fact, not because I reckon it so, but becuase it is truth. I also do not base my beliefs off of mere emotions as emotions will ie to you. Again, I under stand you NOT understanding. The Holy Spirit only can make you see.

About your last comment, I do not know your heart, but it is clear you do not hold to the Bible being the infalible and inerrant word of God. If this is the case it would be hard for someone that feels this way to be saved in the first place. Not to say that some other god didn't speak to your heart. With love I pray that Christ will one day call you Son.

In Christ,

Lee

[DarkWolf]

Again, you're not understanding. You are confusing belief with confirmation of truth. You do not know that what you believe is fact, but you believe that it is, and your belief is strong, and so you are convinced that it is. But that does not mean that it is. No, it's not emotional, no, it's not because you "reckon" it so. You believe, with all your heart that it's true ... but deep down inside, you do not truely know for sure. You've convinced yourself that you do, but you don't. No one does. No one living, at least.

Have you physically seen God? Have you physically touched him? Have you physically seen Jesus in the flesh? No. You have no physical proof (other than a book, that for all we know could be completely made up by an ancient historian that used real events to make it seem more plausible.) that what you believe is true. You believe it on faith that it's true, but really, you don't know for sure.

But I know you're not going to agree, so there's no need for you to respond.

[Monsoon X]

Jay-You're gonna have a hard time with this line of statements. We all believe in God because we do in fact KNOW it to be true.

That's something you can't even begin to relate to.

I personally know that there is supreme God and that he sent His Son to die for us, for our sins. WHY? Because what you call many coincediences I call the work of God in my life. I thank God for ALL things that happen in my life. And when I lean on Him and trust that he'll take care of things, HE DOES LIKE HE PROMISED THAT HE WOULD.

I worry about nothing in life. Do I have problems? Sure. But they ALWAYS work out in my favor to glorify the name of God, because I'm sure to let everyone know that it is God working in my life and not some "coincedience".

And about the Bible being a simple book is wrong. The Bible has withstood the most extreme scruntiny over all the centuries and has never been discounted. No men ALONE could have conjured up a book like the Bible. To disregard it as a simple collection of stories made up by men shows that you have never set out to read it and find errors totally.

I challenge you to read it in it's entirety and still come out thinking that it's fake. Go ahead and compare it with the History books and scientific journals. You'll see it is accurate.

[speedpro50]

Thats good JC!

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Jay-You're gonna have a hard time with this line of statements. We all believe in God because we do in fact KNOW it to be true.

That's something you can't even begin to relate to.

I personally know that there is supreme God and that he sent His Son to die for us, for our sins. WHY? Because what you call many coincediences I call the work of God in my life. I thank God for ALL things that happen in my life. And when I lean on Him and trust that he'll take care of things, HE DOES LIKE HE PROMISED THAT HE WOULD.

I worry about nothing in life. Do I have problems? Sure. But they ALWAYS work out in my favor to glorify the name of God, because I'm sure to let everyone know that it is God working in my life and not some "coincedience".

And about the Bible being a simple book is wrong. The Bible has withstood the most extreme scruntiny over all the centuries and has never been discounted. No men ALONE could have conjured up a book like the Bible. To disregard it as a simple collection of stories made up by men shows that you have never set out to read it and find errors totally.

I challenge you to read it in it's entirety and still come out thinking that it's fake. Go ahead and compare it with the History books and scientific journals. You'll see it is accurate.

Whoa whoa whoa. When did this ever become an assumption that I don't believe in God, that I don't know God exists? I know in my heart, but I also know that doesn't mean it's true. I believe that it's true, just like you, but I know that simply because I believe ... hell, even KNOW it to be true, doesn't necissarily make it true. Absolutely God exists, and without a doubt I believe in him.

As for the Bible, did I say I believe it to be completely made up? No. I was pointing out that as a possibility, because in all honesty, it IS a possibility. It's absolutely possible that men, alone, could concieve of the Bible, and to give it validity, use actual events that happened, and names of people who actually existed. Yes it's possible. Do I believe it's completely made up? Of course not. But I, like you, have no proof that it's not. I, like you, have no proof that God exists. We cannot walk up to someone who doesn't believe in God and say "Hey, walk through this doorway with me. See that big glowing being sitting in that throne over there. Yeah, him. That's God. Just thought you might like to know that what we've believed all along is true." We know what we believe, and we know it to be true in our hearts. But that doesn't by default make it true.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf


Whoa whoa whoa. When did this ever become an assumption that I don't believe in God, that I don't know God exists? I know in my heart, but I also know that doesn't mean it's true. I believe that it's true, just like you, but I know that simply because I believe ... hell, even KNOW it to be true, doesn't necissarily make it true. Absolutely God exists, and without a doubt I believe in him.

As for the Bible, did I say I believe it to be completely made up? No. I was pointing out that as a possibility, because in all honesty, it IS a possibility. It's absolutely possible that men, alone, could concieve of the Bible, and to give it validity, use actual events that happened, and names of people who actually existed. Yes it's possible. Do I believe it's completely made up? Of course not. But I, like you, have no proof that it's not. I, like you, have no proof that God exists. We cannot walk up to someone who doesn't believe in God and say "Hey, walk through this doorway with me. See that big glowing being sitting in that throne over there. Yeah, him. That's God. Just thought you might like to know that what we've believed all along is true." We know what we believe, and we know it to be true in our hearts. But that doesn't by default make it true.

Follow me here DW. If the Bible is not true then we are in a mess because God says it is the truth. God puts his WORD above his name. So, if a person denies the Bible being complete truth, then I would say he is LOST and calling God a liar.

The Bible being absolute truth, means that it is completely factual. I have not personally seen the Lord, but Moses saw God's back parts after he passed by, Isaiah saw the Lord upon his throne, Stephen the NT Deacon of the 1st church saw heaven opened up. Your previous statement that I have not seen God, makes no difference according to my knowledge that He is the God. If the Bible is truth then what the above mentioned people said must also be true! If you deny the Bible as infalible, then this discussion should end and we should move onto sharing the gospel with you as the Holy Spirit would have to shed light on your heart.

Lee

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by speedpro50
Follow me here DW. If the Bible is not true then we are in a mess because God says it is the truth. God puts his WORD above his name. So, if a person denies the Bible being complete truth, then I would say he is LOST and calling God a liar.

The Bible being absolute truth, means that it is completely factual. I have not personally seen the Lord, but Moses saw God's back parts after he passed by, Isaiah saw the Lord upon his throne, Stephen the NT Deacon of the 1st church saw heaven opened up. Your previous statement that I have not seen God, makes no difference according to my knowledge that He is the God. If the Bible is truth then what the above mentioned people said must also be true! If you deny the Bible as infalible, then this discussion should end and we should move onto sharing the gospel with you as the Holy Spirit would have to shed light on your heart.

Lee

Try following me here. I've never said the Bible wasn't true. I've said it's not infallible, because it was written by man. I've said that God's core message is there.

As for the second part of your response, you only know these things, because they're written in the Bible. There's no physical evidence to support that argument.

I agree with you this discussion should end, because as I said before, neither of us is going to agree with the other. We see things differently ... though nearly the same. We're just going to keep going around in circles, and neither of us will prove anything to the other. You believe the Bible is infallible, I don't (that doesn't mean I believe the Bible is false). Let's move on.

[Monsoon X]

Jay you're gonna have to quit riding the fence when it comes to God.

If you believe in God (as you say you do) then you must believe in his word.

Like I stated before and I do seriously challenge you, this simple "book" as you put it, has with stood almost 2000 years of scrutiny from the best of human minds from each century. Yet is still going strong and is yet to be discounted and found as fallible.

It has been compared with History and found true, It has been compared with Science and been found true. I'll also encourage you to go to your local Christian book store and buy a copy of On the 7th day. It is a collection of personal testimonies from 40 scientists about how they came to believe in God and the Bible.

[DarkWolf]

That's just the thing JC, I'm not riding the fence. I believe what I believe, because it's what I know in my heart to be true. It's the gift God gave me 7 years ago when I went through a spiritual crisis. I was on the verge of truely renouncing God. I had lost my faith. I could feel his absence. I started practicing Herbalism, and soon started practicing Wicca. Not too long after that I started practicing Shamanism, and studying Druidity, and God came back into my life. I could feel his presence again, and I left Wicca, and Shamanism. I left religion, but God has stayed with me through all this.

I thought maybe I should start going to church, and putting my faith back in the Bible as I had once done. And I did try, but I got nothing out of it. When I went to church, God was with me, but the place, the building, felt empty (and I should mention also that when I had been Christian, and all my faith was in the Bible, churches still felt empty to me. Cold, and disconnected. I never really understood it, until later.) When I read the Bible, I see it for the good in it, but I don't see it as the whole truth, the absolute unquestionable truth. I see it as only part of the truth.

I'm without religion, yet God is with me always. It doesn't matter to me whether you agree with me, or whether the Bible agrees with me. God agrees with me, because this is the path he chose for me.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf
I thought maybe I should start going to church, and putting my faith back in the Bible as I had once done. And I did try, but I got nothing out of it. When I went to church, God was with me, but the place, the building, felt empty (and I should mention also that when I had been Christian, and all my faith was in the Bible, churches still felt empty to me. Cold, and disconnected. I never really understood it, until later.) When I read the Bible, I see it for the good in it, but I don't see it as the whole truth, the absolute unquestionable truth. I see it as only part of the truth.

I'm without religion, yet God is with me always. It doesn't matter to me whether you agree with me, or whether the Bible agrees with me. God agrees with me, because this is the path he chose for me.

The question DW is which God? The statement that the Bible is part of the truth is true in a way as it does not tell us everything, but the statement is untrue in the way that IT IS ALL THE TRUTH WE NEED TO KNOW! Your statement above that the Bible is not the absolute unquestionable truth is scary, as that is an essentail doctrine of the Christian faith. That is necessary if your are to call yourself a born again believer. Neither you nor I are smart enough to figure out what is true and what is not true in the Word of God if you are right and it is not all true, which I obviously disagree with.

Also, you will have a hard time when you meet Jesus explaining to Him why you don't ever attend church. I understand many many churches today are cold, indifferent, spiritually empty, etc. BUT that is not the case with every church. If oyu have not visited every church until finding the Christian healthy church for you, then you have not done your duty to Jesus Christ. It is a slap in the face to Him by you not being a part (an integral part) in a local church body (another long thread this would take to discuss). You see, Christ died for the church! Watch what you say about not feeling comfortable in any church. The problem could be you, although I do not know your heart. You need church for dozens of reasons like sound teaching, to build your faith, to fellowship with believers who care, you need the WORD, etc. I hope this helps!

Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

[DarkWolf]

The answer, God. I know that the Bible is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith. I'm not Christian. I'm not a part of any religion.

[speedpro50]

So again I ask, which God DW?

Lee

[DarkWolf]

And I answer again, God. There is only one God.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by DarkWolf
And I answer again, God. There is only one God.
Only one Triune God, but lots of gods.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf
And I answer again, God. There is only one God.

Tell me more about your God.

[DarkWolf]

Read your Bible, and you will know my God. :p

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by 281R
Only one Triune God, but lots of gods.

Only one Creator, but lots of angels.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf
Read your Bible, and you will know my God. :p

Well, I do read my bible. From what you have previously stated your God and my God have some distinct differences. So please tell me about your God.

[DarkWolf]

Please tell me what differences I've stated. The only difference I think I've brought up is the necessity to accept Christ as your savior. I stated that I believe it's one way to salvation, but I don't believe it's the only way. The reason it's different form what the Bible says, is because it's essential to Christian theology that Christ is the savior, and the only way to salvation ... thus the term Christian ... People of Christ. But then we get back to my original point ... I don't believe that the Bible is the absolute truth ... only part of it.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf
Please tell me what differences I've stated. The only difference I think I've brought up is the necessity to accept Christ as your savior. I stated that I believe it's one way to salvation, but I don't believe it's the only way. The reason it's different form what the Bible says, is because it's essential to Christian theology that Christ is the savior, and the only way to salvation ... thus the term Christian ... People of Christ. But then we get back to my original point ... I don't believe that the Bible is the absolute truth ... only part of it.

Your statement above shows 2 differences not 1. The Bible being absolute truth and Christ (also God -- not your God according to your statements) being the one and only way! My God says these things are true and you say they aren't. You have called God a liar, as He puts His word above His name. This make sense?

[DarkWolf]

God is the way to salvation. I've always stated that. I put my faith in God. You believe Jesus was God in the flesh, and so through Jesus are you saved ... but wouldn't that really be saying through God that you're saved, since Jesus was God in the flesh?

And I'm not sure if it was you, or not, but I seem to remember one of you guys saying that you know the Bible isn't the whole truth ... but that it's all the truth you need.

[MoonDog]

Act 4:10 be it known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye did crucify, whom God did raise out of the dead, in him hath this one stood by before you whole.
Act 4:11 `This is the stone that was set at nought by you--the builders, that became head of a corner;
Act 4:12 and there is not salvation in any other, for there is no other name under the heaven that hath been given among men, in which it behoveth us to be saved.'

Rom 10:9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved,

[DarkWolf]

So, are you saying Jesus wasn't God in the flesh?

[MoonDog]

You really want to know who I think Jesus was? I will tell you what I believe.

Jesus was born to a virgin. He was fathered by the Holy Spirit. He was a man and Son of God.

Now, comes the tricky part. Was he God? I dont believe so. Jesus never once said he was God. Did God dwell within Him. Yes. I believe everything that God is and all His Glory was in Jesus. What we as christians have in the Holy Spirit is only a small fraction of what God is. Jesus had it all, everything that God is was in Jesus. God calls Jesus His Son, He doesn't call Him Himself. Jesus allowed God to speak through him.

Maybe that sounds alittle wacky, there is alot more to it but in a nutshell that is what I think. But, that wasn't what my previous post was about. It stated that through Jesus was the only way into Heaven. God said, that if you deny His Son then He will deny you.

Now don't start slamming me guys! :D

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by MoonDog
Now don't start slamming me guys! :D

I won't, but please explain in more detail!:)

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by speedpro50


I won't, but please explain in more detail!:)

I knew someone was going to ask. And it just had to be Lee. :D

In short, I dont think Jesus was God but God manifested Himself through Jesus. Much like God can and does manifest Himself through poeple today but only on a larger scale. Like I stated, the fullness of God, all that He is, was in Jesus.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Act 2:22 "Men, Israelites! Pay attention to these words! Jesus the Nazarene, a Man having been attested by God among you by miraculous works and wonders and signs which God did through Him in your midst, just as you* yourselves also know-

These two verses state that it was God working through Jesus.
I have found no where in scripture where Jesus says he is God. He doesn't even imply that He is God. Jesus clearly refers to God as someone other then Himself.

Mar 10:18 But Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good except One-God.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted with a loud voice, saying, "'Eloi, Eloi, lima sabachthani?'"-which is, having been translated, "'My God, My God, why did You abandon Me?'"

Joh 20:17 Jesus says to her, "Stop holding Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But be going to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.'"

Also, Steven before he is stoned to death sees Jesus at Gods right hand, how can Jesus be at His own right hand?

I know my view on the Trinity is a little off the wall, but I just dont buy into the 3 in 1 thing, I dont believe that something like that is a matter of life or death. I beleive that a person MUST go through Jesus in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. That is what salvation is all about. Without Jesus we all would perish.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is that simple. That is the short version. I could do a long one and give more references but that would take some time.
:D

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by MoonDog


I knew someone was going to ask. And it just had to be Lee. :D

In short, I dont think Jesus was God but God manifested Himself through Jesus. Much like God can and does manifest Himself through poeple today but only on a larger scale. Like I stated, the fullness of God, all that He is, was in Jesus.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Act 2:22 "Men, Israelites! Pay attention to these words! Jesus the Nazarene, a Man having been attested by God among you by miraculous works and wonders and signs which God did through Him in your midst, just as you* yourselves also know-

These two verses state that it was God working through Jesus.
I have found no where in scripture where Jesus says he is God. He doesn't even imply that He is God. Jesus clearly refers to God as someone other then Himself.

Mar 10:18 But Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good except One-God.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted with a loud voice, saying, "'Eloi, Eloi, lima sabachthani?'"-which is, having been translated, "'My God, My God, why did You abandon Me?'"

Joh 20:17 Jesus says to her, "Stop holding Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But be going to My brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.'"

Also, Steven before he is stoned to death sees Jesus at Gods right hand, how can Jesus be at His own right hand?

I know my view on the Trinity is a little off the wall, but I just dont buy into the 3 in 1 thing, I dont believe that something like that is a matter of life or death. I beleive that a person MUST go through Jesus in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. That is what salvation is all about. Without Jesus we all would perish.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is that simple. That is the short version. I could do a long one and give more references but that would take some time.
:D

Read John 17 "Even as we are ONE" x 3 (i think), and after doing so it should along with dozens of other scriptures clear things up.

John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Genisis 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. **In verse 1 you have God the Father, verse 2 the Holy Spirit, and verse 3 you have Jesus Christ!

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Do you not believe that Jesus has been around for ever????
How do you explain the word "us"???
A man YES, but both MAN and God or God in the flesh. Three entities yet ONE person.

Lee

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by speedpro50


Read John 17 "Even as we are ONE" x 3 (i think), and after doing so it should along with dozens of other scriptures clear things up.

Joh 17:22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;

Are you and I one? No, we are two distinct individuals. We are one in spirit becuase we are both christians. It is the same with Jesus, He and God are two yet one in Spirit. Like I said, the fullness of God was within Jesus.


John 1:1-14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


The Word was in Jesus, everytime Jesus opened his mouth He was speaking truth and those words came straight from God as though God was speaking. Like I said, God dwelt inside of Jesus, they were one in spirit. I am sure there are times when you are in prayer or spending time with God and you are in the Spirit, where you feel that you are one with him. When we feel the Spirit of God moving and people are being healed and delivered does that make you or I God, no, I believe it was the same with Jesus but only on a larger scale, he performed all these miracles but it was God working through Him. We can only comprehend a small portion of what God has to offer but Jesus had the whole portion.

Genisis 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. **In verse 1 you have God the Father, verse 2 the Holy Spirit, and verse 3 you have Jesus Christ!

I think this is kind of a stretch because that is implying that Jesus was created and did not exsist in verse 1 and 2. It somewhat supports my theory, So, I will leave that one alone. :D


Do you not believe that Jesus has been around forever????

Simply put, the man Jesus was born around 2000 years ago, right?


How do you explain the word "us"???


As in, Gen 1:26 And God said, let Us make man...?

Let Us Make is the Hebrew word "asah"

Taken from Strongs:

6213 `asah {aw-saw'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1708,1709; v

AV - do 1333, make 653, wrought 52, deal 52, commit 49, offer 49,
execute 48, keep 48, shew 43, prepare 37, work 29, do so 21,
perform 18, get 14, dress 13, maker 13, maintain 7, misc 154; 2633

1) to do, fashion, accomplish, make
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to do, work, make, produce
1a1a) to do
1a1b) to work
1a1c) to deal (with)
1a1d) to act, act with effect, effect
1a2) to make
1a2a) to make
1a2b) to produce
1a2c) to prepare
1a2d) to make (an offering)
1a2e) to attend to, put in order
1a2f) to observe, celebrate
1a2g) to acquire (property)
1a2h) to appoint, ordain, institute
1a2i) to bring about
1a2j) to use
1a2k) to spend, pass
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be done
1b2) to be made
1b3) to be produced
1b4) to be offered
1b5) to be observed
1b6) to be used
1c) (Pual) to be made
2) (Piel) to press, squeeze

There is no "let us make" in there. Now, let me say this, many times when I am presented a problem and I am trying to figure it out, I will sometimes say "Let's try this" who am I talking to, me and only me. "Let's" is short for "Let us".

Could I be wrong with all this, yes. I usually do not discuss things like this because I know it is different then what most people believe, but at the sametime I don't think it is detrimental to my salvation.

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by MoonDog
Could I be wrong with all this, yes. I usually do not discuss things like this because I know it is different then what most people believe, but at the sametime I don't think it is detrimental to my salvation.

Precisely.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by DarkWolf


Precisely.

But you must remember Jay, that I also said that you must go through Jesus to get to heaven. There is no way around that. The bible is very clear on that. There is only one mediator between God and man that that is Jesus.

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by MoonDog
But you must remember Jay, that I also said that you must go through Jesus to get to heaven. There is no way around that. The bible is very clear on that. There is only one mediator between God and man that that is Jesus.

Oh I know... that's just where we differ in our belief.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by DarkWolf
Read your Bible, and you will know my God. :p :confused: DW, obivious your god is different then the God of the Bible. Well, if you want me to read my Bible and know your god, then your god must be the anti-christ.

<B>1 John 2:18-25</B>
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 <B>Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.</B>
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

[DarkWolf]

I've never denied Jesus was the son of God :p I just don't believe he's the only way to God, for as has been stated, I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, thus I believe that through God are you saved.

[speedpro50]

dw -- so you would then say that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) lied to those he spoke to saying he was the only way???:confused:

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by speedpro50
dw -- so you would then say that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) lied to those he spoke to saying he was the only way???:confused:

Nope. Because I believe Jesus was God in the flesh. Thusly, I believe that God is the way. Jesus saying that he's the only way, is God saying that he's the only way. That doesn't mean Christianity is the only way.

That's why I don't belong to any religion.

[Monsoon X]

I'm not gonna go through all the same scriptures that Lee brought forth but, I'm just gonna say that he and Moondog are debating the same yet different takes on the same subject. I think you two are arguing semantics.

Let me see if I can put it this way. If you can imagine three entities who are one in substance(or as a whole) but, are completly seperate individually. Jesus never called himself God because he wasn't "God". He is the Son. There is a hiearchy in the trinity. They are seperate individuals yet, are one. Now you have to understand the conceptual facts of the root word "Omni" to ingest all of this. Omnipotent,Omniscient and Omnipresent.

DW-For you to conclude that since Jesus and God are one in the same so you choose to worship God and throw away what he says about his Son is an incomplete faith. (The same for many other "religions") You say that you are talking about the same God that Christians talk about yet, when it comes to His plan of salvation you want to alter it. People these days want salvation by their own expectations and not from how God has stated it. You believe in an Omni* God, yet you can't seem to fathom Jesus as His Son, seperate yet the same? What we have here is a spirituality that is a mile wide yet only an inch deep. What you in essence have done is made yourself a god, and made you own path of salvation.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
I'm not gonna go through all the same scriptures that Lee brought forth but, I'm just gonna say that he and Moondog are debating the same yet different takes on the same subject. I think you two are arguing semantics.

I wasn't arguing, Lee asked me to explain my view. No harm done. :)

DW-For you to conclude that since Jesus and God are one in the same so you choose to worship God and throw away what he says about his Son is an incomplete faith. (The same for many other "religions") You say that you are talking about the same God that Christians talk about yet, when it comes to His plan of salvation you want to alter it. People these days want salvation by their own expectations and not from how God has stated it. You believe in an Omni* God, yet you can't seem to fathom Jesus as His Son, seperate yet the same? What we have here is a spirituality that is a mile wide yet only an inch deep. What you in essence have done is made yourself a god, and made you own path of salvation.

That is something that I tried to make sure I stated, I never leave out Jesus, Jesus is the reason for the hope that we have today. God said that if you deny His Son before men then you will be denied before the angels.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog


I wasn't arguing, Lee asked me to explain my view. No harm done. :)



That is something that I tried to make sure I stated, I never leave out Jesus, Jesus is the reason for the hope that we have today. God said that if you deny His Son before men then you will be denied before the angels.

MD- I said arguing not fighting. There's a difference. A debate is an argument.

I know you don't leave out Jesus. But remember, Jesus was in heaven and he came to us through the flesh and in the flesh. If not, then wouldn't it be pretty presumptious for Him to assume that He was the Messiah? Jesus knew what Heaven was like. (John 14:2,3:13)He was more than a Man whom God was working through

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X


MD- I said arguing not fighting. There's a difference. A debate is an argument.

I know you don't leave out Jesus. But remember, Jesus was in heaven and he came to us through the flesh and in the flesh. If not, then wouldn't it be pretty presumptious for Him to assume that He was the Messiah? Jesus knew what Heaven was like. (John 14:2,3:13)He was more than a Man whom God was working through

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if our spirit came from God and God is in heaven did we all not come from heaven? Just because we have no recollection of it doesn't mean we were never there. If we had a memory of heaven then we would have no need for faith. Jesus needed the memory of heaven so he would tell us what it is like and we could chose to believe or not. He knew who He was and what His job on earth was. Alot of us are still trying to figure out what our job here is.

Do you think I am wrong, believe me, this is not something that I just came across one day and thought that it sounded good. This was alot of studying and praying. But, that does not mean that I am not open to some new revelation, so to speak.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog

Correct me if I am wrong, but if our spirit came from God and God is in heaven did we all not come from heaven? Just because we have no recollection of it doesn't mean we were never there. If we had a memory of heaven then we would have no need for faith. Jesus needed the memory of heaven so he would tell us what it is like and we could chose to believe or not. He knew who He was and what His job on earth was. Alot of us are still trying to figure out what our job here is.

Dude, you sound like a Scientologist! hahahahahahaha


Trust me I can see how you conclude this but, you're rolling on a concept that has no Biblical basis. While your scripture is valid, it or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, makes no mention of our "pre-body" souls, having a conscious existence in Heaven like it does concerning Jesus. Therefore I'll take the assumption that Jesus was more than we are.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X


Dude, you sound like a Scientologist! hahahahahahaha


Trust me I can see how you conclude this but, you're rolling on a concept that has no Biblical basis. While your scripture is valid, it or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter, makes no mention of our "pre-body" souls, having a conscious existence in Heaven like it does concerning Jesus. Therefore I'll take the assumption that Jesus was more than we are.

LOL, I am not a Scientologist. :eek:

I see your point JC, but just because the bible doesn't mention having a conscious existence it does mention that we did if fact come from heaven as stated before. It really doesn't come right out and say that Jesus pre-exsisted, but in a round about way I can see how you or anyone else can come to that conclusion. Maybe sometimes I take to bible to literal. :D

Maybe sometime we can sit down with someothers and discuss this. I am up for it.

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
DW-For you to conclude that since Jesus and God are one in the same so you choose to worship God and throw away what he says about his Son is an incomplete faith. (The same for many other "religions") You say that you are talking about the same God that Christians talk about yet, when it comes to His plan of salvation you want to alter it. People these days want salvation by their own expectations and not from how God has stated it. You believe in an Omni* God, yet you can't seem to fathom Jesus as His Son, seperate yet the same? What we have here is a spirituality that is a mile wide yet only an inch deep. What you in essence have done is made yourself a god, and made you own path of salvation.

Except this is the path God has chosen for me to walk.

You guys also seem to be missing the distinction here. I'm not denying Jesus. I'm not saying he wasn't the Son of God. I believe that he was God in the flesh. You keep saying that I'm leaving Jesus out of the equation. I'm not. He's part of the equation. Christianity is part of the equation, but I don't believe it's the whole equation. I don't believe that Christianity is the only way to salvation.

[speedpro50]

Originally posted by DarkWolf


Except this is the path God has chosen for me to walk.

Did God give you your own path or what? To many things you have said don't add up. It sounds like you are mad at religion and have built some type of wall around yourself spiritually.

Lee

[DarkWolf]

Originally posted by speedpro50


Did God give you your own path or what? To many things you have said don't add up. It sounds like you are mad at religion and have built some type of wall around yourself spiritually.

Lee

About 7 years ago, as I said. Yes, I was mad at religion. I was mad at God. I found my way back, and God has come back into my life. I'm not mad at religion anymore, I've accepted religion for what it is ... a man made concept. I simply don't subscribe to any religion.

You say too many things I've said don't add up ... add up to what? Add up to your belief that Christianity is the only way? Of course not.

[MoonDog]

Some of you may be happy to know that I am revisiting this subject of Jesus and God. I had overlooked this passage. To me it seams that Jesus is making a claim to be God. The people that he was talking to knew what he had just said and wanted to stone him. Back to the drawing board I guess.


Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.

Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

Joh 8:59 Because of this, they took up stones that they might throw them on Him. But Jesus was hidden, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.