The state of things. [Archive]

talisman

11-08-2009, 12:56 PM

I see a lot of posts on here these last few months calling for the upheval of the current government. To say I'm disgusted with the current state of our country would be a vast understatement. Has the system that was put in place 233 years ago really finally started crumbling around our ears? I don't know. I was born in our bicentennial year, and have only been around for 33 of the 233.

The last couple of years(yes, even before Obama) have disturbed me as to the direction we're headed in. There is no common sense in politics. In the Nixon days, the assholes at least had the DECENCY to try and COVER up the foul things they were perpetrating on the populace. Now these vile decadent nightmares are visited upon us in plain site, mocking us at our inability to challenge the status quo as it burns down our heritage and most basic principles to line its' own pockets with cash and blood.

What is it going to take to be heard? The majority of the population is against healthcare, and yet it passes(so far, anyway). These ingrates are not doing what we elected them to do. They are not our represenatives. Why do we not have provisions in place for extricating these complacent fatcats from their lofty postions when they so arrogantly ignore the will of the people who put them there? I'm so furious right now with this government. The things that are important are being blanketly ignored, while they invent more ways to get us all deeper in debt. I don't need someone protecting me from "Myself." Quit telling me how to spend my fucking money when you dipshits in DC can't even balance a goddamned checkbook. Motherfuckers. God I'm pissed.

Slowhand

11-08-2009, 01:23 PM

I just had a similar argument with myself this morning. I'm disgusted, fearful and sick to my stomach. I don't know whether I should be more proactive in fighting our government or just give up and try and enjoy what I can.

My biggest fear is that while a lot of awful things have happened in the last 10 years concerning how our government functions, I really haven't felt the effects of it yet and I feel that the day that I do begin to experience the consequences of all of these poor choices is getting nearer and nearer. That's something I really don't want to experience; I like my life as it lays right now.

DOHCTR

11-08-2009, 03:05 PM

I would support a revolution at this point. Call me crazy, but I just spent the last 3 years of my life studying to become a doctor. I will be removing myself from the pre-med program Monday.

Page 50 Section 152 in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!

Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals' finances & a 'National ID Health card' will be issued!

Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.

Page 84 Sec 203 HC bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the 'Exchange.'

Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. (Translation: illegal aliens.)

Page 149 Lines 16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who does not provide public option will pay 8% tax on all payroll! (See the last comment in parenthesis.)

Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)

Page 253 Line 10-18: The Govt sets the value of a doctor's time, profession, judgment, etc. (Literally-- the value of humans.)

Page 265 Sec 1131: The Govt mandates and controls productivity for "private" HC industries.

Page 427 Lines 15-24: The Govt mandates a program for orders on "end-of-life." (The Govt has a say in how your life ends!)

I did not choose to study medicine to be poor, but apparently the governmet will not get to decide what a doctors work is worth.

And I have kept my mouth shut on the whole illegal alien thing for too long. Free health care for illegals? What the fuck? That is fucked up beyond all recognition.

The govt now gets access to my finances and bank accounts. Fuck that. And now they get to tell me when to die.

Im sorry, but if a large uprising happened somehow... I would take great pride in being a part of it.

Jester

11-08-2009, 03:07 PM

What is it going to take to be heard? .

A revolution, I am afraid.

Strychnine

11-08-2009, 03:15 PM

DOHCTR

11-08-2009, 03:16 PM

It still has to make it through the Senate.

Which it will. Don't kid yourself.

MR TINFOIL HAT

11-08-2009, 03:20 PM

A revolution, I am afraid.

Yep, it's time to restore order/accountability to this country.

Jester

11-08-2009, 03:22 PM

Yep, it's time to restore order/accountability to this country.

How and to who? Not as easy as organizing a militia anymore and going to war.

DOHCTR

11-08-2009, 03:26 PM

How and to who? Not as easy as organizing a militia anymore and going to war.

You start and ill join.

Slowhand

11-08-2009, 03:38 PM

How and to who? Not as easy as organizing a militia anymore and going to war.

This is the issue. An uprising would be nice if you can deal with a few things:

1. The US Military.

2. The complexity of the way our country functions and getting a new system in place in a timely manner if the revolutionists do win. Failing to do so would initiate a global economic meltdown.

3. Unity. There are a lot of people that are upset with the government but for a variety of reasons. Getting people to agree on exactly what a new government should be is completely up in the air. It should be easy (what our original constitution said) but we've proven recently that both liberals and conservatives aren't particularly interested in the constitution.

4. $$$$$$. A revolution will be of great cost. You'll lose productivity across the nation (you can't very well work when you're fighting the government) and you'll incur significant costs in running a revolution.

5. Keeping the asshats that made this happen out of the new government. People are inherently stupid and will continue to make poor decisions when voting for representatives.

There are a lot more issues, but I think those are the important ones.

That said, I'm perfectly willing to throw logic aside in this case.

DOHCTR

11-08-2009, 03:46 PM

This is the issue. An uprising would be nice if you can deal with a few things:

1. The US Military.

2. The complexity of the way our country functions and getting a new system in place in a timely manner if the revolutionists do win. Failing to do so would initiate a global economic meltdown.

3. Unity. There are a lot of people that are upset with the government but for a variety of reasons. Getting people to agree on exactly what a new government should be is completely up in the air. It should be easy (what our original constitution said) but we've proven recently that both liberals and conservatives aren't particularly interested in the constitution.

4. $$$$$$. A revolution will be of great cost. You'll lose productivity across the nation (you can't very well work when you're fighting the government) and you'll incur significant costs in running a revolution.

5. Keeping the asshats that made this happen out of the new government. People are inherently stupid and will continue to make poor decisions when voting for representatives.

There are a lot more issues, but I think those are the important ones.

That said, I'm perfectly willing to throw logic aside in this case.

With a revolution, most of this goes out the window.

Im glad the colonists at Lexington didn't think, "damn, we had better reconsider the economic effects of setting of these here muskets".

Slowhand

11-08-2009, 03:58 PM

With a revolution, most of this goes out the window.

Im glad the colonists at Lexington didn't think, "damn, we had better reconsider the economic effects of setting of these here muskets".

This is entirely true, but I think it presents added complexity that they didn't have to deal with last year. Foreign involvement is also something that would be much more of an issue now than it was then.

And you damn well better believe that they considered and reconsidered the economic impact of their actions; the impact of their actions was much more important for them personally, however, and not to the world like it would be today. Committing a revolution does you no good if you do it in a way that hinders/limits recovery. Blindly rushing into this because you're upset does no one any good. The American Revolution took years and years of discussion and planning; people in Lexington didn't just wake up one day and stage a revolution because of the Stamp Act or the Sugar Act. I'm not saying that what you're suggesting is wrong, but it's going to take a lot of time to get going and a lot of planning and a lot of people on the inside willing to help out.

We've done lots of bitching and moaning for 10+ years. Now is the time to start discussing and doing if we are to save this country. But Americans have a short attention span and an even shorter memory. The country will move on after H.R. 3962 gets passed through Congress and ignore the degradation of our once great Union.

talisman

11-08-2009, 04:03 PM

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

11-08-2009, 04:04 PM

This healthcare law is bullshit! Im not paying for illegal aliens fuck that!

tazz007

11-08-2009, 04:06 PM

This is the issue. An uprising would be nice if you can deal with a few things:

1. The US Military.

2. The complexity of the way our country functions and getting a new system in place in a timely manner if the revolutionists do win. Failing to do so would initiate a global economic meltdown.

3. Unity. There are a lot of people that are upset with the government but for a variety of reasons. Getting people to agree on exactly what a new government should be is completely up in the air. It should be easy (what our original constitution said) but we've proven recently that both liberals and conservatives aren't particularly interested in the constitution.

4. $$$$$$. A revolution will be of great cost. You'll lose productivity across the nation (you can't very well work when you're fighting the government) and you'll incur significant costs in running a revolution.

5. Keeping the asshats that made this happen out of the new government. People are inherently stupid and will continue to make poor decisions when voting for representatives.

There are a lot more issues, but I think those are the important ones.

That said, I'm perfectly willing to throw logic aside in this case.

That method is old school. If your going to think old school, remember the french revolution. They did it right, well at least they did once. They eliminated the elite, they had some but very little conflict with the military. They cut the head off of the snake, so to speak.

DOHCTR

11-08-2009, 04:07 PM

And you damn well better believe that they considered and reconsidered the economic impact of their actions.

To a point, but there is always an element of impulsiveness in revolution. The tension built and built and built until the people had enough. It would not be inappropriate to liken the new HC bill to the Alien and Sedition Acts (intolerable acts).

Also, economics was much much less an issue. Many revolutionaries desired a strictly agrarian society.

The American Revolution took years and years of discussion and planning; people in Lexington didn't just wake up one day and stage a revolution because of the Stamp Act or the Sugar Act.

Again, the people were pushed to a boiling point. There was a lack of organization upon the breakout of warfare. Lexington was a breaking point, which could happen at any time.

We've done lots of bitching and moaning for 10+ years. Now is the time to start discussing and doing if we are to save this country. But Americans have a short attention span and an even shorter memory. The country will move on after H.R. 3962 gets passed through Congress and ignore the degradation of our once great Union

America is a very vast area. I think saving the country as a whole would be difficult. People hold radically different beliefs, born out of geographical influences, lineage, religion, occupations, local economy, etc.

I think that that Russian guys hypothesis about the US breaking off into different subsections is somewhat plausible.

Jester

11-08-2009, 04:13 PM

Gentlemen, when a man or organization with the funds to start and maintain a revolution steps up, I will offer my area of expertise. Until then, it is a pipe dream.

The time to refresh the Tree of Liberty is long over due.

MR TINFOIL HAT

11-08-2009, 04:16 PM

How and to who? Not as easy as organizing a militia anymore and going to war.

It may be too late for us unfortunately. If we tried to revolt they would break out all their nice little devices, and sick the foreign troops that are here to restore order on us. The Obama supporters would agree when the media labels us all terrorists, and wouldn't give a shit what they do to us. When they have the power to kill the internet, and use foreign military on us, you know it's going to get ugly. When they pass the health care, and then sign the climate treaty, we're as good as dead. H1n1 is their ace in the hole to mass compliance. They can put us under UN WHO level 6 pandemic laws, martial law, this country is cooked I'm afraid. Don't get me wrong I'm not giving up. I just think there are too many people clueless to what's happening to our nation, especially our leap towards globalization, and it's very very late in the game for us. GOVERNMENT wants to control every aspect of our lives, and they will if we let them.

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

11-08-2009, 04:38 PM

It may be too late for us unfortunately. If we tried to revolt they would break out all there nice little devices, and sick the foreign troops that our here to restore order on us. The Obama supporters would agree when the media labels us all terrorists, and wouldn't give a shit what they do to us. When they have the power to kill the internet, and use foreign military on us, you know it's going to get ugly. When they pass the health care, and then sign the climate treaty, we're as good as dead. H1n1 is their ace in the hole to mass compliance. They can put us under UN WHO level 6 pandemic laws, martial law, this country is cooked I'm afraid. Don't get me wrong I'm not giving up. I just think there are too many people clueless to what's happening to our nation, especially our leap towards globalization, and it's very very late in the game for us. GOVERNMENT wants to control every aspect of our lives, and they will if we let them.

Pretty much sums it up! Lots of folks have no idea about whats happening until its done!! Everytime i spend a dollar i remember what it says on it. "In God We Trust"

JFurst

11-08-2009, 04:46 PM

need someone with deep pockets to bankroll it.

GhostTX

11-08-2009, 05:25 PM

Sh*t...where's a coup when you need one?

Sean88gt

11-08-2009, 06:58 PM

MR TINFOIL HAT

11-09-2009, 09:27 AM

Make the 'leaders' in there now afraid to cross the masses and then work to rework government.

Some french guy attempts to guide me under authority of the UN and his life just made way for my freedom.

That's exactly the only way we can win, and they don't fear us right now. Hopefully we can prevent that second scenario from ever coming to fruition.

Lason

11-09-2009, 09:57 AM

I honestly belive the time of need for a revolution is upon us. Many fear the US military stopping the people but many forget that the people under those kevlar helmets are us citizens too and to think that they wont also rise up is crazy. Im sure there would be a great split in the military between the people serving the commander and chief and those serving the constitution.

Problem is these days if anything broke out the media would report it as terrorist activty and the US population has been brainwashed into putting those words and evil together. Even knowing why the people were rising I could see most people rather turning in the "evil militia" than joining them.

Slowhand

11-09-2009, 10:13 AM

I think that that Russian guys hypothesis about the US breaking off into different subsections is somewhat plausible.

That's not an entirely unreasonable hypothesis.

46Tbird

11-09-2009, 10:29 AM

It still has to make it through the Senate.

I like how they used the diversion of the Fort Hood tragedy to get that piece of garbage through.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/11/09/2122391.aspx

The House pushed this thing through at 11:30pm on a Saturday night. These assholes work ten days out of the year, and they pass this shit at midnight during a weekend after a national tragedy so that no one would notice. They'll be lucky if someone doesn't go Nidal Malik Hasan on their ass.

JP135

11-09-2009, 10:33 AM

That's not an entirely unreasonable hypothesis.

I think that's where it will end up. Will it be a year or fifty years until that day is the thing that has yet to be decided.

Vertnut

11-09-2009, 10:35 AM

That's not an entirely unreasonable hypothesis.

Yet the secession of Texas is not an option to some? What's the difference, except there is such a thing as "states' right's".

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

11-09-2009, 10:47 AM

A weakened dollar fueling a rally built on tarp money....lmao only a moron cannot see where this is going! I hope folks know what inflation is cause if you dont you soon will.

Slowhand

11-09-2009, 10:51 AM

Yet the secession of Texas is not an option to some? What's the difference, except there is such a thing as "states' right's".

Solo secession isn't an option for Texas, there's simply too many hurdles to overcome. Secession/revolution with conglomerates of other states into smaller regional countries that work together when necessary provides the support and protection necessary to fend off the Union response.

Vertnut

11-09-2009, 10:53 AM

Solo secession isn't an option for Texas, there's simply too many hurdles to overcome. Secession/revolution with conglomerates of other states into smaller regional countries that work together when necessary provides the support and protection necessary to fend off the Union response.

Then the other option is not a possibility, either.

Sean88gt

11-09-2009, 11:07 AM

That's exactly the only way we can win, and they don't fear us right now. Hopefully we can prevent that second scenario from ever coming to fruition.

The trick is figuring out which way works best.
They apparently have no heart, but they do have the fear of losing their position/power/life...

MR TINFOIL HAT

11-09-2009, 11:15 AM

The trick is figuring out which way works best.
They apparently have no heart, but they do have the fear of losing their position/power/life...

We need to restore that fear.

Stevo

11-09-2009, 11:25 AM

We need to restore that fear.

This.

Stevo

mustang_revival

11-09-2009, 12:35 PM

A friend showed me a video over the weekend. Made me sick to my stomach.

The people who made the video also have a web site, I just looked it up:

http://chapters.thezeitgeistmovement.com/tx/

vtstang66

11-09-2009, 02:27 PM

Funny, an hour after starting this post I got a flyer on my door for some 912liberytbell.org that is an offshoot of the tea party thing and started looking into it. I was all set to join until I got to their #2 principle which is "everything in my life revolves around god." What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Even the people that are trying to help are pissing me off.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Sound familiar?

MR TINFOIL HAT

11-09-2009, 02:30 PM

vtstang66

11-09-2009, 02:38 PM

Yeah, sounds familiar, but IMO it should have been left out of the pledge.

Maybe...the country was founded by God-fearing men, "Creator" was mentioned in the declaration of independence, it's on the money...

I think the fear of God was something that used to hold this country together, and the lack of it is ripping it apart. "Separation of church and state" sounds good for government, but everything worked better when God was still around IMO. People raised their kids, took care of their neighbors, and generally had some morals. No more.

Lason

11-09-2009, 02:40 PM

talisman

11-09-2009, 03:50 PM

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Sound familiar?

Maybe...the country was founded by God-fearing men, "Creator" was mentioned in the declaration of independence, it's on the money...

I think the fear of God was something that used to hold this country together, and the lack of it is ripping it apart. "Separation of church and state" sounds good for government, but everything worked better when God was still around IMO. People raised their kids, took care of their neighbors, and generally had some morals. No more.

The words "Under god" were added in 1954. The Pledge was written by Francis Bellamy in 1892, who, I think it is safe to say, was not one of the founding fathers.

I've got more morals than you can shake a stick at, and god has nothing to do with it, or our current problems. Lets not get sidebarred here.

Sgt Beavis

11-09-2009, 03:59 PM

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson

Does it need to be made any clearer than that?

Sgt Beavis

11-09-2009, 04:04 PM

People also used to believe the world is flat too. IMO, the whole religious apsect should be taken out but Im not one to bitch and change it all. If they want to fight for a God then so be it, whatever it takes to unite the people against those who seek power at the cost of freedom.

I don't recommend that. You could end up with a theocracy.

I've got more morals than you can shake a stick at, and god has nothing to do with it, or our current problems. Lets not get sidebarred here.

Damn straight. It is one of those things that politicians have used to divert the public's attention. Gay marriage for instance. That has absolutely nothing to do with the proper government of this country. Frankly, it is strictly a religious issue. But that didn't stop the Republican party from using it as a huge moral distraction in the last few elections.

MR TINFOIL HAT

11-09-2009, 04:39 PM

Does it need to be made any clearer than that?

Sure doesn't, too bad most don't even know the quote, nor it's meaning.

vtstang66

11-09-2009, 04:53 PM

The words "Under god" were added in 1954. The Pledge was written by Francis Bellamy in 1892, who, I think it is safe to say, was not one of the founding fathers.

I've got more morals than you can shake a stick at, and god has nothing to do with it, or our current problems. Lets not get sidebarred here.

Sorry, not trying to jack your thread.

I do think that the root of our problems does stem from a lack of personal responsibility though. Granted I am getting my American History from shows like Leave it to Beaver and Andy Griffith since I was born in the 80s, but I get the impression that up until relatively recently things were a lot different than they are today, and it is largely because people had an understanding among themselves as to what was OK and what wasn't. Now everybody is so caught up in worldly pursuits they forget to raise their kids and keep up with what is really important. As long as your average person has their TV with 140 channels and iphone in front of them, they don't care about boring stuff like politics and world events.

I'm not saying religion is necessary, but when more people had it I think it kept everybody a little more grounded. It simplifies things; if you're going to shun religion you need to be smart and educated enough to understand why you should/should not do this or that. Most people aren't.

So to get back to the original topic, we're boned. Unless you can educate everyone and change their priorities to the point that they start caring about/participating in government, we're going to keep headed down the road we're headed until you either get some Orwellian world where the government is everything, or the people pick up guns. I think like somebody else said, eventually some of us will go for the guns but by then we won't have a chance against the fat, stupid, complacent masses.

Sean88gt

11-09-2009, 06:06 PM

We need to restore that fear.

I agree. I think their blood is the only thing that will get their attention. They know they sacrificed their seats for this piece of liberal garbage that will lock in socialist control for years to come. Clearly, unemployment isn't enough to grab their attention, but necessary violence would be.

DOHCTR

11-09-2009, 06:34 PM

I'm not saying religion is necessary, but when more people had it I think it kept everybody a little more grounded. It simplifies things; if you're going to shun religion you need to be smart and educated enough to understand why you should/should not do this or that. Most people aren't.

I will agree with this. Intellectuals will make an effort to understand that which surrounds them, but the sheep can conveniently attribute everything to religion. It has always been this way, but fortunately we live in a time where seeking the truth doesn't result in beheading.

That being said, I fully support an individuals right to practice whatever religion they choose so long as it doesn't negatively affect others. Those who fought and died in The Revolutionary War believed in the Christian God, as well as many founders of this great country. That my friends, is good enough for me.