Tankless Water Heater

[bullitt54]

I did a little bit of searching but didn't really find all the info I needed and things change all the time so I'll ask about tankless water heaters again...

So, I'm just about to close on my first house. It has a gas water heater and it's in the middle of the house. The house was built in 1991 and doesn't appear to have a drain pan underneath the water heater. The water heater is about 10 years old now.

As I understand it, if I replace the water heater then I have to get a drain pan installed and plumbed outside the house. Is this correct? What kind of cost and I looking at for this?

I'm considering just getting a tankless system but I'm not sure what costs are on these now. I know they used to be quite pricey but since they have become more common I would think they have become less expensive. Also, if I do this then do I need additional electrical cabling to the area for the unit? or is that only if it was an electrical unit?

It's a 3 bed/ 2 bath home, just two of us are going to be living there.

Will a tankless fit my needs? What size? How much? Is it cost effective?

Tankless seems the way to go just to ensure I don't have a water leak in the middle of the house.

Thanks in advance for the help.

note: not once did I call it a "hot water heater"

[bard]

Search on here for more info, but in short it probably won't be worth it. You'll need a larger gas supply which usually includes a larger meter plus you'll still want a drain pan underneath it. At least I would. It's a cool technological gadget, but the end result is iffy. I know more people that hate it more than like it. If I wanted to upgrade from a std water heater on electric service, I would look to solar. Basically a solar collector on the roof with a low voltage pump down to a std water heater. Seeing as how you are on gas, just go gas.

[mikeb]

I looked at tankless when my water heater needed to be replaced. In short, I could buy 2-3 conventional water heaters for what it would cost to have the tankless installed. Since a conventional water heater lasts ~10 years, thats a ROI of 30 years. I doubt the tankless would last that long. So I put in a 50 gallon conventional.

[Clifton]

We bought a Titan 3 years ago (electric). It paid for it's self in three months time. We love it. Our old water heater sat in the garage and heated water all day and all night. Now the water is only heated when it's needed.

This is the one we have...
http://www.titanheater.com/proddetail.php?prod=SCR2-N120

[Yellowstang]

We bought a Titan 3 years ago (electric). It paid for it's self in three months time. We love it. Our old water heater sat in the garage and heated water all day and all night. Now the water is only heated when it's needed.




How could it pay for itself in 3 months? If it cost $100 I could see that, maybe, but unless your old water heater was fucked up and running at 200 degrees 24 hours a day, I don't see a payback in 3 months time.

[4DRSS]

It paid for it's self in three months time.

I don't buy that...

[Sgt Beavis]

The Titan water heaters are the bottom end of tankless heaters. They are electric heaters. The one Clifton linked to is only $250. It is definitely a winner on price but on performance it leaves a lot to be desired. On their own website, the Titan gives you a 45degree rise in temperature with a flow rate of about 1.75 gallons per minute.

Compare that with the bottom of the barrel Noritz tankless GAS water heater. The 0531 series ($829) gives you the same 45degree rise but the flow rate is 5.3GPM. The Titan can raise the temperature of the water by 81 degrees but the flow rate is reduced to 1GPM. The Nortiz gives the same temperature rise but the flow rate is nearly 3GPM.

I did some looking around and have found reviews on the Titan. Most of them were not that great. It has a 1 year warranty on electrical and a 10 year on water parts. However most complaints I've read said that support was nearly non existent.

Noritz, on the other hand, has been in business since the 1950s. They are a Japanese company that pioneered tankless water heaters back in the 1960s. Tankless water heaters are normal in most Japanese houses (my Inlaws have a Noritz). Nortiz is a pretty big brand over there.

BTW, my inlaws have never replaced their Nortiz. It has been in their house since it was built back in 1988. I had a conversation with my father in law about it. He said he's never even had it serviced. Additionally I can verify that it can put out SCALDING hot water.

Qualifier: My inlaws also have a solar water heater (as do most Japanese houses). It works great during the day but at night (when you take a shower or bath) it is non functional. In many Japanese homes, the solar heater only needs a slight boost from the tankless heater (during the day) if any at all. Most Japanese take a VERY hot bath at night. That tankless heater was definitely up the task...

[Sgt Beavis]

Oh, just more on pricing. That bottom of the barrel Noritz was $829 but the top of the line "residential" models go for $2099. It has MUCH higher performance (as you would expect). Commercial versions go up to $4600. These are the prices from their website. Of course you also have installation costs too. I'm sure you can wheel and deal the price down if you try...

Obviously it is too expensive to replace in an older home IF, as in my case, you don't intend to stay there for more than a few years. However my next house WILL have one.

[Vertnut]

Oh, just more on pricing. That bottom of the barrel Noritz was $829 but the top of the line "residential" models go for $2099. It has MUCH higher performance (as you would expect). Commercial versions go up to $4600. These are the prices from their website. Of course you also have installation costs too. I'm sure you can wheel and deal the price down if you try...

Obviously it is too expensive to replace in an older home IF, as in my case, you don't intend to stay there for more than a few years. However my next house WILL have one.

From experience as a builder, the time to put one in is when you build. Retrofitting one the correct way, is expensive to say the least.

[Vertnut]

I did a little bit of searching but didn't really find all the info I needed and things change all the time so I'll ask about tankless water heaters again...

So, I'm just about to close on my first house. It has a gas water heater and it's in the middle of the house. The house was built in 1991 and doesn't appear to have a drain pan underneath the water heater. The water heater is about 10 years old now.

As I understand it, if I replace the water heater then I have to get a drain pan installed and plumbed outside the house. Is this correct? What kind of cost and I looking at for this?

I'm considering just getting a tankless system but I'm not sure what costs are on these now. I know they used to be quite pricey but since they have become more common I would think they have become less expensive. Also, if I do this then do I need additional electrical cabling to the area for the unit? or is that only if it was an electrical unit?

It's a 3 bed/ 2 bath home, just two of us are going to be living there.

Will a tankless fit my needs? What size? How much? Is it cost effective?

Tankless seems the way to go just to ensure I don't have a water leak in the middle of the house.

Thanks in advance for the help.

note: not once did I call it a "hot water heater"

The new water heaters are pretty efficient in their own right. I'd replace it with a standard unit.

[NickDMagiera]

http://www.marathonheaters.com/

[Sgt Beavis]

http://www.marathonheaters.com/

That website is dead.

[Clifton]

How could it pay for itself in 3 months? If it cost $100 I could see that, maybe, but unless your old water heater was fucked up and running at 200 degrees 24 hours a day, I don't see a payback in 3 months time.

Our water heater sat in the garage with no closet around it, and was 23 years old. Our electric bill went from $350 a month to $170-$180 a month in the winter. It was installed in November....so three in months time, it paid for it's self.

When a water heater sits in a garage that is 40-50 degrees, it's not efficient. I paid $150 (in '06) for the water heater and $300 in wiring to run it ( it pulls 57 amps instead of 20-30 amps). The Titan is on the cheap side, but has performed flawlessly. My neighbor installed one a couple months after I did and is still very happy with his also.

I don't buy that...

Really... Read above hater.

[Vertnut]

So your hot water heater was using almost $200 a month in electricity? A typical Ruud 60 gal unit that I use, are rated at $400 a YEAR , on average. Something else had to be wrong. My point is that if your unit was that jacked up, ANYTHING would have been an improvement.

[Clifton]

So your hot water heater was using almost $200 a month in electricity? A typical Ruud 60 gal unit that I use, are rated at $400 a YEAR , on average. Something else had to be wrong. My point is that if your unit was that jacked up, ANYTHING would have been an improvement.

Very good. People usually replace things that are fucked up, or that are very inefficient. Our old unit was cycling, but it was only shutting off for a couple minutes at a time when the garage would get below 50 degrees.

[beefed88]

one idea I saw was running two electric heaters consecutively, just one into the other which lets you buy two smaller cheaper units rather than one large expensive one. I also have a 3/2/2 and I dont care how much it costs space is valuable especially in the garage

[DFWtechie]

Clifton,

Did your old heater have 1/2" connections? I ordered a titan 120 a few years back and dropped the water pressure due to the 1/2" inlet and outlet so much we could not use it. Our house is plumbed with 3/4" at the water heater.

I ended up putting a timer on the water heater and changing the element, this dropped the bill around 40-60 a month.

[bullet]

Why not just replace it with a new more efficient gas heater ?



The drain pan is a good idea but if you keep an eye on the bottom of the tank checking it once a month you will almost always catch a problem before it turns into a major problem. Just check for rust/ corrosion and for seeping at the bottom. The drain pain is actually pretty worthless if you neglect the heater and allow it to bust as 40 gallons will not drain through that little 3/4 inch drain fast enough without flooding your home. If you are worried about running out of water, you can always replace it with a 80 gallon heater. I have always used kenmoore water heaters and have never had one bust. I have had 2 seep, a 9 year warranty one that was 20 years old and a 6 year warranty one that was 70 months old but they will give you a new one no questions asked as long as it is under the warranty period. Also if you want additional peace of mind you can install one of these on the supply line.


http://www.thewateralarm.com/wateralarm/pc/viewcategories.asp?idCategory=6&pageStyle=P






To retrofit a tankless is going to be pretty expensive to do it right. All of the ones I have ever seen are mounted in an exterior wall so that they vent outside. Not sure how they would work on an interior installation. If you decide to go tankless, stick with a gas ones, the electric ones suck and usually can't keep the water heated consistently over long periods of use as the gas ones are much more efficient.

[mardyn]

I've got an electric/tankless unit at my home... while it works OK, it's very power hungry when it activates... I think it uses two 50 amp circuits to run at WFO. Water gets hot, and there's plenty of it... but the cost of installation, plus big time electrical consumption gets the overall costs out of line.

I think a smaller sized conventional water heater with a pan and a blanket may be equally as efficient given the high initial cost of the electric tankless unit, but a gas fired system might be a different story.

[bullitt54]

If I get a tankless I'm definitely going with a gas heating unit since the tank unit we have now is gas.

I guess my biggest reason for tankless was to reduce the possibility of having a major water issue developing in the middle the house and flooding the majority of the rooms in the home. i know insurance would cover it but i'd rather not deal with that nightmare.

We don't move into the home until April so I guess I'll do a little more research between then and now and decide.

Thanks for all the repsonses. I'll keep you posted with what we decide.

[pattymelt3605]

If I get a tankless I'm definitely going with a gas heating unit since the tank unit we have now is gas.

I guess my biggest reason for tankless was to reduce the possibility of having a major water issue developing in the middle the house and flooding the majority of the rooms in the home. i know insurance would cover it but i'd rather not deal with that nightmare.

We don't move into the home until April so I guess I'll do a little more research between then and now and decide.

Thanks for all the repsonses. I'll keep you posted with what we decide.

We have a gas tankless water heater in the home we are building. Here is some info:

http://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heaters/learn-about-tankless/tankless-water-heater-advantage/

http://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heaters/

[Clifton]

Clifton,

Did your old heater have 1/2" connections? I ordered a titan 120 a few years back and dropped the water pressure due to the 1/2" inlet and outlet so much we could not use it. Our house is plumbed with 3/4" at the water heater.

I ended up putting a timer on the water heater and changing the element, this dropped the bill around 40-60 a month.

It is necked down to 1/2" to slow the water flow. The elements can only heat the water so fast, so slowing it down was a must. Our water pressure didn't change anywhere in the house except for the bath tub. It takes the tub a little longer to fill up, but it's worth the wait (10 minutes instead of 5-6).

Why not just replace it with a new more efficient gas heater ?


Our house is all electric. Gas is not an option in our neighborhood.

[Big Studly]

Very good. People usually replace things that are fucked up, or that are very inefficient. Our old unit was cycling, but it was only shutting off for a couple minutes at a time when the garage would get below 50 degrees.

wow, that isn't a product of the water heater being ineficent, you probably could have replaced a part on it for cheap and it would have worked fine.

Good theory on the cold temp. in the garage, but this is Texas and it gets cold for what, one, maybe two months of the year? Up North that could be an argument, but not here.

[Vertnut]

wow, that isn't a product of the water heater being ineficent, you probably could have replaced a part on it for cheap and it would have worked fine.

Good theory on the cold temp. in the garage, but this is Texas and it gets cold for what, one, maybe two months of the year? Up North that could be an argument, but not here.

That was sort of my point. "Normal" water heaters don't cost almost $200 a month to run.

[Clifton]

wow, that isn't a product of the water heater being ineficent, you probably could have replaced a part on it for cheap and it would have worked fine.

Good theory on the cold temp. in the garage, but this is Texas and it gets cold for what, one, maybe two months of the year? Up North that could be an argument, but not here.


I am not on this thread to argue. I replaced my water heater with a tankless unit. That's it. OODFWS....

[Big Studly]

I am not on this thread to argue. I replaced my water heater with a tankless unit. That's it. OODFWS....

yea, that is great, you gave your opinion and I gave mine. your case is obviously not the norm, not to mention the fact you pretty much did what is the equivalent of fixing a flat tire by buying a new car.

[Yellowstang]

yea, that is great, you gave your opinion and I gave mine. your case is obviously not the norm, not to mention the fact you pretty much did what is the equivalent of fixing a flat tire by buying a new car.

Well, if the new car had run flats, you'd never get another flat! , so there. :naughty:

Clifton, I never new they had such inexpensive tankless heaters, I figured they were like at least $1000 and up.

[Clifton]

yea, that is great, you gave your opinion and I gave mine. your case is obviously not the norm, not to mention the fact you pretty much did what is the equivalent of fixing a flat tire by buying a new car.

I am so proud of you. You now understand the term "Home Improvement".

So you understand this better...I crushed my 1983 Chevy G-10 van that got 6 miles to the gallon (old water heater), and replaced it with a new Hybrid vehicle that gets 50 miles to the gallon (tank-less water heater). Does this help you understand better or do I need to type slower for you?

[bullet]

I am so proud of you. You now understand the term "Home Improvement".

So you understand this better...I crushed my 1983 Chevy G-10 van that got 6 miles to the gallon (old water heater), and replaced it with a new Hybrid vehicle that gets 50 miles to the gallon (tank-less water heater). Does this help you understand better or do I need to type slower for you?




So you spent 30k on a new car to save $300 a month on gas when you could have bought a used toyota for 4k that gets 35 mpg ?


:scratchchin:



I have a few questions about your heater, how many baths or showers are in your house and how many people live there ? Do you have 1.5 gpm shower heads installed ?


I noticed it says it is mostly for where the ground water is higher than 65 degrees. Have you ever had any problems when it is in the 30's outside for a few days in a row ? Also as far as the electrical, did they just have to change the breaker to a higher rating or do you have to change the wire size too ?



Seems like a good deal if it works like you say, but every plumber I know says that an electric tankless will cost more to run than a regular "normal" electric heater. I noticed they offer some higher heating capacities that are still under $500 and one has twice the heating but requires 2 50 amp breakers to run it.

[311-420]

while running, tankless heaters consume more electricity or gas than a conventional heater when they are running side by side. the benefits, obviously, is that you dont constantly heat water without need and you do not run out of hot water if the correct gpm heater is installed. for your case with 2 bath and 2 people, a 7gpm tankless from Takagi will work great.

the bad side, theyre not as cheap as conventional heaters. also the vent that must be used to pass city code is not cheap AT ALL.

they mount really easy and take up not alot of room. this is a biggie. you can even mount them to an outside wall of your home if you want to keep it outside.


sidenote: we're one of the last countries to still use conventional heaters. most of euro and places have been using tankless for a while now.


-5yrs of plumbing

[Big Studly]

I am so proud of you. You now understand the term "Home Improvement".

So you understand this better...I crushed my 1983 Chevy G-10 van that got 6 miles to the gallon (old water heater), and replaced it with a new Hybrid vehicle that gets 50 miles to the gallon (tank-less water heater). Does this help you understand better or do I need to type slower for you?

I don't consider that a "home improvement", I consider that someone that fell for some sales pitch. Yeah, you paid it back in 4 months when you could have paid back a conventional water heater back in one month, or if you just had it fixed, probably days. Congratulations! If you think you are saving that much energy than a properly working conventional water heater, I have a bridge to sell you.

[bullet]

I don't consider that a "home improvement", I consider that someone that fell for some sales pitch. Yeah, you paid it back in 4 months when you could have paid back a conventional water heater back in one month, or if you just had it fixed, probably days. Congratulations! If you think you are saving that much energy than a properly working conventional water heater, I have a bridge to sell you.



I think you missed the part about him paying $150 for the tankless heater when a new CHEAP electric 40 gallon goes for about $250. Even if you take the $300 he paid the electrician into account, I would glady take continuous hot water for only $200 in extra cost over a CHEAP 40 gallon that will run out after two showers or bath during the winter months.

[Big Studly]

I think you missed the part about him paying $150 for the tankless heater when a new CHEAP electric 40 gallon goes for about $250. Even if you take the $300 he paid the electrician into account, I would glady take continuous hot water for only $200 in extra cost over a CHEAP 40 gallon that will run out after two showers or bath during the winter months.

you people act as if the winter months are so harsh around here. I grew up with a family of 4 and not once did I have to take a cold shower.

[bullet]

you people act as if the winter months are so harsh around here. I grew up with a family of 4 and not once did I have to take a cold shower.



Key word is shower. Standard bathtub is ~40 gallons. If you have 2 women in the family who take back to back baths, assumming half hot and half cold with a 40 gallon electric heater you will not be taking a hot shower after them for a while. Throw in your wife washing towels in hot or warm water and a dishwasher that uses hot for sanitizing, or a larger 60 gallon jacuzzi jub and the problem gets even worse. A big factor is location. If it is in a non insulated garage then you will run out a lot quicker. If I recall this is what the guy was originally saying why his conventional heater was running all the time in his cold garage.


Here are some hot water figure usage from the department of energy.


Hot water used (gallons)
Washing Machine (typical model; hot/hot)
40

Washing Machine (efficiency model; hot/hot)
13-28

Shower
20

Bath
20

Dishwasher
12

Cooking
5

Washing Dishes
4




http://www1.eere.energy.gov/consumer/tips/water_heating.html







If you really want to get into details, an electric tankless will on average last twice as long as a conventional heater, cost about 8% less per year to run, and has a far less chance of causing extensive water damage due to rupture.

[Big Studly]

Key word is shower. Standard bathtub is ~40 gallons. If you have 2 women in the family who take back to back baths, assumming half hot and half cold with a 40 gallon electric heater you will not be taking a hot shower after them for a while. Throw in your wife washing towels in hot or warm water and a dishwasher that uses hot for sanitizing, or a larger 60 gallon jacuzzi jub and the problem gets even worse. A big factor is location. If it is in a non insulated garage then you will run out a lot quicker. If I recall this is what the guy was originally saying why his conventional heater was running all the time in his cold garage.


Here are some hot water figure usage from the department of energy.


Hot water used (gallons)
Washing Machine (typical model; hot/hot)
40

Washing Machine (efficiency model; hot/hot)
13-28

Shower
20

Bath
20

Dishwasher
12

Cooking
5

Washing Dishes
4




http://www1.eere.energy.gov/consumer/tips/water_heating.html







If you really want to get into details, an electric tankless will on average last twice as long as a conventional heater, cost about 8% less per year to run, and has a far less chance of causing extensive water damage due to rupture.

that is great. Tankless heaters can handle between 5-7 GPM, so you do all of that and you have no hot water at all. At least with a tank you would have some. They both have pro's and con's. I am not sold on them. Yeah, you save 8% per year over one with a tank. The payback is not worth the cost in my opinion, when you can do small things to a standard water heater to save just as much money, without having to have a small construction project in your house.

[bullet]

that is great. Tankless heaters can handle between 5-7 GPM, so you do all of that and you have no hot water at all. At least with a tank you would have some. They both have pro's and con's. I am not sold on them. Yeah, you save 8% per year over one with a tank. The payback is not worth the cost in my opinion, when you can do small things to a standard water heater to save just as much money, without having to have a small construction project in your house.


We are talking about a cheap tankless, he paid less than what a cheap 40 gallon electric heater can be bought for. not a $1500 one. The downside is the one he has only flows 1.5 gpm and he mentioned about the tub taking 10 min versus 5 to fill up. That company does make one for under 500 that flows quite a bit higher. That is why it is important to determine your needs first, before spending any money. The best tankless are gas ones and cost about half as much per month to run $ wise but they cost more to purchase and install with proper venting. Sure you can buy a timer and blanket that each run 40 to 45 each for a proper functioning tank heater but if it needs replacing, it is not hard at all to swap a breaker and hook an electric tankless up.

[ceyko]

So, but consider the OP's post. From what I'm reading he'll HAVE to retrofit the house with plumbing from a point in the center of the house. Given gravity, I assume it'll need to be low - which could possibly mean foundation work too. Or am I over complicating it?

Anyway, it seems in the OP's case there might be a much better case for a tankless heater. From my research as well they don't seem that great, but there is a possiibility for the OP it is a good solution. Am I wrong?

[Vertnut]

We are talking about a cheap tankless, he paid less than what a cheap 40 gallon electric heater can be bought for. not a $1500 one. The downside is the one he has only flows 1.5 gpm and he mentioned about the tub taking 10 min versus 5 to fill up. That company does make one for under 500 that flows quite a bit higher. That is why it is important to determine your needs first, before spending any money. The best tankless are gas ones and cost about half as much per month to run $ wise but they cost more to purchase and install with proper venting. Sure you can buy a timer and blanket that each run 40 to 45 each for a proper functioning tank heater but if it needs replacing, it is not hard at all to swap a breaker and hook an electric tankless up.

In most cases, it involves a little more than "swapping out a breaker". That wire had better be able to handle the bigger breaker.

[bullitt54]

So, but consider the OP's post. From what I'm reading he'll HAVE to retrofit the house with plumbing from a point in the center of the house. Given gravity, I assume it'll need to be low - which could possibly mean foundation work too. Or am I over complicating it?

Anyway, it seems in the OP's case there might be a much better case for a tankless heater. From my research as well they don't seem that great, but there is a possiibility for the OP it is a good solution. Am I wrong?

I don't move into the house until April 1 or I would check on this myself... anyways I'm not positive but I think there is plumbing to the same location because the heat exchanger unit and the water tank are in the same closest in the middle of the house.

I don't know if I will need to have dedicated plumbing put in for a new water tank or if I can just put a drain pan in and tie it into the pipe for the heat exchanger/ac unit.

Once I get moved in I'm going to have an estimate done to see how much tankless would cost to install vs a coventional tank.

[ceyko]

If I was the current owner, I would not have a problem -if asked and coordinated with- with a buyer having 1 or 2 estimates done for work like that.

[bullitt54]

we're not in the rush to get it replaced. the water heater is old but when our home inspector looked at it he said it wasn't an immediate concern but something we should consider doing in the next year. we'll probably replace it within the first couple of months when we move in because i'll be kicking myself if it busts and i didn't do it.

[Big Studly]

We are talking about a cheap tankless, he paid less than what a cheap 40 gallon electric heater can be bought for. not a $1500 one. The downside is the one he has only flows 1.5 gpm and he mentioned about the tub taking 10 min versus 5 to fill up. That company does make one for under 500 that flows quite a bit higher. That is why it is important to determine your needs first, before spending any money. The best tankless are gas ones and cost about half as much per month to run $ wise but they cost more to purchase and install with proper venting. Sure you can buy a timer and blanket that each run 40 to 45 each for a proper functioning tank heater but if it needs replacing, it is not hard at all to swap a breaker and hook an electric tankless up.

my point exactly, 1.5 GPM? Sure hope someone doesn't want to wash their hands while you are taking a shower. That is the main reason I am not sold on them, they can't keep up with demand unless you get the expensive ones, which then the savings you get will never payback the cost.

[bullet]

In most cases, it involves a little more than "swapping out a breaker". That wire had better be able to handle the bigger breaker.



Yea it does depend on what gauge is run on the 220 and the distance. The higher flowing and heating tankless require more than a 60 amp breaker and I think you have to add an extra line. A lot of the older homes have the heaters close to the breaker box if the box is in the garage. My heater is mounted less than 5 feet from my breaker box so it is not a big issue. If I recall on the tankless gas you also have to increase the supply lines to them as well.

[Vertnut]

Yea it does depend on what gauge is run on the 220 and the distance. The higher flowing and heating tankless require more than a 60 amp breaker and I think you have to add an extra line. A lot of the older homes have the heaters close to the breaker box if the box is in the garage. My heater is mounted less than 5 feet from my breaker box so it is not a big issue. If I recall on the tankless gas you also have to increase the supply lines to them as well.

The propane units I've installed in new homes, requires a slight upgrade, but not bad.

[bullet]

my point exactly, 1.5 GPM? Sure hope someone doesn't want to wash their hands while you are taking a shower. That is the main reason I am not sold on them, they can't keep up with demand unless you get the expensive ones, which then the savings you get will never payback the cost.



Put a 1.5 shower head on and it will work pretty good unless you always take your showers with hot only at full blast at 120 degrees.

[Vertnut]

my point exactly, 1.5 GPM? Sure hope someone doesn't want to wash their hands while you are taking a shower. That is the main reason I am not sold on them, they can't keep up with demand unless you get the expensive ones, which then the savings you get will never payback the cost.

It gets real expensive for me as a builder, because these houses take two of them. I've not been able to find a way for one to feed a 3200ft. 3 1/2 bath home. I usually put one on each end of the house so that the distance is within reason. Folks assume it's "instant" hot water, and that's just not the case.

[Big Studly]

It gets real expensive for me as a builder, because these houses take two of them. I've not been able to find a way for one to feed a 3200ft. 3 1/2 bath home. I usually put one on each end of the house so that the distance is within reason. Folks assume it's "instant" hot water, and that's just not the case.

thanks you for confirming my suspicion. just makes no sense. You might pay it back by the time you need to replace them in 20 to 30 years. We only use them in lab applications where there is not much use and not much demand and you can put them under a sink out of the way.

[Big Studly]

Yea it does depend on what gauge is run on the 220 and the distance. The higher flowing and heating tankless require more than a 60 amp breaker and I think you have to add an extra line. A lot of the older homes have the heaters close to the breaker box if the box is in the garage. My heater is mounted less than 5 feet from my breaker box so it is not a big issue. If I recall on the tankless gas you also have to increase the supply lines to them as well.

the line upgrade would depend on the pressure of the gas. Of course the tankless is going to use more gas while in operation because you need more btuh to heat water 60 degrees or so instead of 10 degrees that you might in a tank, but gas lines are surprising deceptive as to how much CFH they can handle, but it all depends on what pressure your regulator is set at.

[ponie99]

I sell plumbing supplies, and could hook you up with a plumber if need be let me know if you want some info on good tankless heaters.