So when will Israel retaliate? [Archive]

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Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

12-25-2008, 04:31 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081225/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Seems as though they are just about ready to go kick some ass.

sc281_99-0135

12-25-2008, 05:50 PM

hopefully soon. someone has to have a set. because judging by popular opinion in america now, all we want are warm and fuzzies.

Vertnut

12-25-2008, 06:21 PM

sc281_99-0135

12-25-2008, 06:25 PM

thesource

12-25-2008, 06:28 PM

Maybe they will ring in the new year with some fire works of their own ............

sc281_99-0135

12-25-2008, 06:42 PM

Maybe they will ring in the new year with some fire works of their own ............

hope so. the israeli air force hasnt had any good fun in years ;)

aggie97

12-25-2008, 07:05 PM

if Netanyahu gets back into office, I guarantee Israel will start shit with just about EVERY one of it's neighbors. I watched an interview with him about 6 months ago and he all but said if the US doesn't stop Iran from getting atomic bombs, Israel will step up to the plate and make sure it doesn't happen. These "stone throwers" in Gaza might just end up as a practice run...

The IDF is jones'n to use some other their new toys! :eek:

White trash wagon

12-25-2008, 07:20 PM

I'm afraid with Barry in office, Israel is on her own...The problem is that Isael is like a Pandora's Box: once she starts up, it may be tough to shut her down. The Jews really don't fuck around, especially with the likes of Netten-Yahoo looking to get back in power.

Exactly, the US has enforced an un-natural and tense standoff in the Middle East for decades. Sooner or later, we have to turn our backs for a moment & let the IDF obliterate the other Arab nations.

And they could do it without resorting to nuclear weapons. It would have been better if we had done this 30 years ago, but now will work as well. Oil would spike at $300-$400 a barrel for awhile. But after the smoke clears, Israel will be glad to sell to the world for $70 a barrel. Iraq, Iran, Jordan and Syria would be tightly controlled colonies of Israel. Saudi Arabia & Egypt might be persuaded to be allies, but if needed... the IDF could take them out too.

thesource

12-25-2008, 07:23 PM

Thats not going to happen .......... Russia and China will not stand by and let them have a free for all .

sc281_99-0135

12-25-2008, 07:26 PM

Thats not going to happen .......... Russia and China will not stand by and let them have a free for all .

thats why the US will have to step in.

White trash wagon

12-25-2008, 07:27 PM

Thats not going to happen .......... Russia and China will not stand by and let them have a free for all .

That's a good counterpoint. But Russia & China might prefer to deal with a stable & tightly controlled central authority, instead of a hodge-podge of unstable and volatile kings, sheiks & ayatollahs.

The Soviet Union didn't do anything in 1967 when Israel took half the middle east(Six Day war). And in '67 the Soviets damn sure had the military capability to do something had they desired.

JimD

12-25-2008, 07:39 PM

Fuck em, i say bombs away!

thesource

12-25-2008, 07:41 PM

Todays Russia is looking to regain their super power status and will look for a piece of the middle eastern pie as soon as the U.S. pulls out of the region .

China is 100 times the country they were in the 60's and with out a doubt will want to ensure that the oil is in the right hands .

I don't think either are huge fans of the Jews .

Vertnut

12-25-2008, 08:44 PM

That's a good counterpoint. But Russia & China might prefer to deal with a stable & tightly controlled central authority, instead of a hodge-podge of unstable and volatile kings, sheiks & ayatollahs.

The Soviet Union didn't do anything in 1967 when Israel took half the middle east(Six Day war). And in '67 the Soviets damn sure had the military capability to do something had they desired.
I tend to agree with this. Stability is a lot more attractive to the powers that be. After all, China is heavily invested in us, right? It's almost like the "any port in a storm" philosophy.

White trash wagon

12-25-2008, 09:17 PM

Todays Russia is looking to regain their super power status .

I think that might be a good thing, for 40 years during the cold war we had stability, 2 superpowers in opposition & everyone else fell in one of the 2 camps. We had balance. We kept out allies in check & Soviets kept thiers in check.

When the Soviet Union fell, everything became unbalanced, Europe more or less reverted to it's pre WWI status after all kinds of civil wars & ethnic cleansing. We've had coups, wars, strife & all kinds of folks got thier hands on Soviet nukes while they were down & out. And with only one superpower there is no balance.

If the Russians could peacefully regain thier superpower status, we could have balance again.

I know that's a stretch.

thesource

12-25-2008, 09:20 PM

I think China has a much better chance of becoming the worlds next super power .

Denny

12-25-2008, 09:36 PM

I think China has a much better chance of becoming the worlds next super power .
I agree, but I forsee Russia and even India as powers as well.

Denny

12-25-2008, 09:39 PM

If Israel ever goes into a full-on war with anyone, you'll see a mass movement of people into the country to support their efforts. My wife's not happy with my choice to go, but she knows that it is what I believe in, so she's not going to contest me when I do go.

White trash wagon

12-25-2008, 09:45 PM

I agree, but I forsee Russia and even India as powers as well.

Agreed. India will surpass China in population in less than 10 years. Thier far ahead of China in technology & don't rely on low tech sweat shop factories to power thier economy. China will fall by the wayside.

Denny

12-25-2008, 09:53 PM

Agreed. India will surpass China in population in less than 10 years. Thier far ahead of China in technology & don't rely on low tech sweat shop factories to power thier economy. China will fall by the wayside.
Exactly. China is building up some mad money from their production of rinky-dink shit that go to places like Wal-Mart. India is advancing in their technology all while staying under the radar. They're not trying to prematurely flex a muscle or make empty threats. I don't fear them, as they will probavly be pretty responsible with their worls status (minus their Paki inihilation).

Sean88gt

12-26-2008, 12:07 AM

I think that might be a good thing, for 40 years during the cold war we had stability, 2 superpowers in opposition & everyone else fell in one of the 2 camps. We had balance. We kept out allies in check & Soviets kept thiers in check.

When the Soviet Union fell, everything became unbalanced, Europe more or less reverted to it's pre WWI status after all kinds of civil wars & ethnic cleansing. We've had coups, wars, strife & all kinds of folks got thier hands on Soviet nukes while they were down & out. And with only one superpower there is no balance.

If the Russians could peacefully regain thier superpower status, we could have balance again.

I know that's a stretch.
We dropped the ball by not enforcing our super power status. We should have let everyone know we were the biggest and the best and been willing to display it at a moments notice.

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

12-26-2008, 01:17 PM

White trash wagon

12-26-2008, 01:22 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081226/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_pakistan

Looks like the Indians and Pakistani's are having their own little confrontation. Pakistans troops are moving towards Indias border. What a mess over there and we think we've got it bad!

India and Pakistan have been fighting on & off for 50 years. Both have formidable militaries & both have nuclear weapons.

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

12-26-2008, 01:45 PM

India and Pakistan have been fighting on & off for 50 years. Both have formidable militaries & both have nuclear weapons.

Hopefully nothing comes of this but they are calling for Pakistan leaders to take care of the people responsible for those recent attacks and it looks as though they are not. Of course this may be propaganda and there may be no troop movement to indian borders. Time will tell

Sean88gt

12-26-2008, 02:02 PM

Hopefully nothing comes of this but they are calling for Pakistan leaders to take care of the people responsible for those recent attacks and it looks as though they are not. Of course this may be propaganda and there may be no troop movement to indian borders. Time will tell
When will Obama call for a global hug?

black01gt

12-26-2008, 02:35 PM

We dropped the ball by not enforcing our super power status. We should have let everyone know we were the biggest and the best and been willing to display it at a moments notice.
I hate how you say that correctly, in the past tense.

mikeb

12-26-2008, 04:01 PM

Maybe if pakistan and india get into it, we will see IT projects coming back to the US, and less of the india help desks/call centers.

Vertnut

12-26-2008, 04:10 PM

When will Obama call for a global hug?
When he does, it will be more than a hug, and there won't be any "reach-around's" from that group. :o

thesource

12-26-2008, 04:55 PM

When will Obama call for a global hug?

I hope so ........ we need that and to buy every one a Coke .

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

12-26-2008, 06:34 PM

Maybe if pakistan and india get into it, we will see IT projects coming back to the US, and less of the india help desks/call centers.

haha i agree i called Xm the other day and was talking to some foreign guy. Its sad all these americans are out of work and here i am talking to an indian or some shit.... :rolleyes:

White trash wagon

12-26-2008, 06:50 PM

I hope so ........ we need that and to buy every one a Coke .

Damn, you're showing your age. ;)

Mr Majestyk

12-26-2008, 06:58 PM

The Palastinians are among the stupidest population on the planet today....live like pigs and spend what little pittance they have on mediocre weapons.

Sean88gt

12-26-2008, 07:39 PM

I hope so ........ we need that and to buy every one a Coke .
"I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony" That damn thing came out 6 years before I was born!:eek:

Sean88gt

12-26-2008, 07:42 PM

I hate how you say that correctly, in the past tense.
It was unintentionally on purpose:o

I sincerely hope that a crash of the US would be large enough to choke the rest of the world and allow us to get to our feet fastest.

I still feel that we are on top and will weather this storm, but some of the paper tigers are picking up steam and looking to knock us off.

Zarathustra

12-26-2008, 08:50 PM

:rolleyes: Zionists...

Denny

12-26-2008, 09:36 PM

:rolleyes: Zionists...
...says the savage.

blownragtop

12-26-2008, 10:54 PM

:rolleyes: Zionists...

It’s not Zionism to favor democracy over shitocracy. Islam, by the fundamentalist definition, is an intolerant theocracy. This intolerance makes war unavoidable. And this intolerance will continue as long as the Islamic masses remain ignorant and cowardly pawns to bigoted clerics and petty dictators.

And while it is not Zionist to accept the existence of Israel – it is patently anti-Semitic to question the validity of the Jewish state. ANY movement that does not recognize Israel is grounded in irrational hate – and doomed to failure.

Peace in the Middle East will come, and only come, when the Muslim people extricate themselves from the shackles of a religion mired in the Dark Ages. The success of the West was a result of the interplay between church and state. Islamic theocracy, by comparison, is a stagnant cesspool that breeds nothing but contempt – a contempt that must be directed outward to avoid implosion. Because of this, ‘modern’ Islamic society has become a cultural, political and intellectual backwater.

ToRqUeTwIsTeR

12-27-2008, 02:12 AM

Burn!!

Slowhand

12-27-2008, 02:55 AM

:rolleyes: Zionists...

Yeah, I didn't miss this shit.

Denny

12-27-2008, 05:35 AM

mikeb

12-27-2008, 08:29 AM

I guess we know now...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Two waves of air strikes kill an estimated 120 people. One of them, a "Maj. General," chief of the Hamas police force.

this has the possibility to get really bad and out of hand.

Denny

12-27-2008, 08:32 AM

this has the possibility to get really bad and out of hand.
I just want to spend some time at home before I have to go.

wesman

12-27-2008, 09:31 AM

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

12-27-2008, 09:51 AM

Well they had to do something! Oil and Gold will be up monday this will have an affect for sure.

Denny

12-27-2008, 09:53 AM

Well they had to do something! Oil and Gold will be up monday this will have an affect for sure.
Nah

wesman

12-27-2008, 10:00 AM

Well they had to do something! Oil and Gold will be up monday this will have an affect for sure.

Maybe a little, but not much. However, if this Pakistan/India thing pops off......that's a whole different story.

--wes

Bubbaearl

12-27-2008, 10:13 AM

Vertnut

12-27-2008, 10:17 AM

i would trade missile for missile . why in the hell the world thinks it's ok for those morons to fire daily barrages of missiles but Israel is not suppose to do anything. if a missile came across the rio grande today there would be no mexico tomorrow .
Not trying to be Chicken Little or anything, but Mexico's "border-war" BS has had me worried for a while. All it takes is a radical drug lord with explosives to do some real damage.

sc281_99-0135

12-27-2008, 10:20 AM

Not trying to be Chicken Little or anything, but Mexico's "border-war" BS has had me worried for a while. All it takes is a radical drug lord with explosives to do some real damage.

then well throw the cops that shoot the bastard in jail.... its the american way.

Vertnut

12-27-2008, 10:22 AM

then well throw the cops that shoot the bastard in jail.... its the american way.
That's a lot of what scares me about it. :o

5.0 svo

12-27-2008, 10:39 AM

Not trying to be Chicken Little or anything, but Mexico's "border-war" BS has had me worried for a while. All it takes is a radical drug lord with explosives to do some real damage.
And what would a drug lords motivation be? We are taking all his employees?

Vertnut

12-27-2008, 10:51 AM

And what would a drug lords motivation be? We are taking all his employees?
They are battling with border agents and folks (Americans) that live along the border. Drug traffic is huge in our border towns. Ranchers are endangered by all the illegal activity that occurs on their land.

thesource

12-27-2008, 11:37 AM

I guess we know now...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Two waves of air strikes kill an estimated 120 people. One of them, a "Maj. General," chief of the Hamas police force.

Bombs away ..... you'd think the dumb fucks would learn by now not to pick a fight against Israel .

jones4stangs

12-27-2008, 12:01 PM

Looks like they killed too many out the gate to keep good momentum for continuous targeted killings. My guess is they are going to be too cautious for the next few weeks and move back to doing nothing. They are not politically ready to force major change in the gaza strip. They still need to form a new coilition government.

5.0 svo

12-27-2008, 01:07 PM

They are battling with border agents and folks (Americans) that live along the border. Drug traffic is huge in our border towns. Ranchers are endangered by all the illegal activity that occurs on their land.
So what exactly would they do with some explosives?

Vertnut

12-27-2008, 01:33 PM

So what exactly would they do with some explosives?
Whatever they want, I guess. What's your debate? Is there a doubt that those guys are out there? :confused:

Trip McNeely

12-27-2008, 01:43 PM

They are battling folks (Americans) that live along the border.
Sounds like fun to me and a good excuse to stock up on a massive arsenal.

Vertnut

12-27-2008, 02:35 PM

Sounds like fun to me and a good excuse to stock up on a massive arsenal.
Hell yeah. Some ranchers are really having problems with the "coyotes" and the drug mules crossing their land. I guess they take down fences and the ranchers lose cattle, etc. There's a lot of theft as they cross, too.

Trip McNeely

12-27-2008, 02:40 PM

Hell yeah. Some ranchers are really having problems with the "coyotes" and the drug mules crossing their land. I guess they take down fences and the ranchers lose cattle, etc. There's a lot of theft as they cross, too.
Sounds like grounds to "Shoot on site" to me. :D

GhostTX

12-27-2008, 02:58 PM

I love it...Palestinians shoot first. Then when Israel shoots back...there's protests, war cries and condemning of attacks. :rolleyes:

5.0 svo

12-27-2008, 03:43 PM

Whatever they want, I guess. What's your debate? Is there a doubt that those guys are out there? :confused:
Oh well I thought you had an idea what they could possibly do with some explosives. You said you were worried about it so I thought maybe they would have actual targets. Unless, dont tell me, there not gonna blow up our weed supply are they??!!!

SS Junk

12-27-2008, 04:41 PM

:rolleyes: Zionists...
You just don't fuck with Jesus' home town.

It’s not Zionism to favor democracy over shitocracy. Islam...
You are using words that are too difficult for a shirpa backalacka ding dong muhammad jihad sympathing faggot to understand.

mikeb

12-27-2008, 05:03 PM

I love it...Palestinians shoot first. Then when Israel shoots back...there's protests, war cries and condemning of attacks. :rolleyes:

Don't most islamic wars start this way? Screw with someone that will whip your ass, and cry when it happens?

sc281_99-0135

12-27-2008, 05:08 PM

Don't most islamic wars start this way? Screw with someone that will whip your ass, and cry when it happens?

yup, and looks like its gonna happen again. 'Bout damn time!

636ryder

12-27-2008, 07:59 PM

I wouldn't worry much about a drug cartel incident. Unless you lived in a border town. If they have military weaponrs or vehicles it's cause they're stolen or from some crooked members selling it off. Mexico wouldn't go toe to toe with us over some morons, they'd kill him just as quick as we would.

As for india/pakistan...I don't know whether or not we'd really do much with it. They've fought before and granted I was younger when they did so I don't recall whether or not we got involved. However based on what I've read about it nothing says we did offically get involved.

As for the actual topic of the thread. :D It's about time they jack em up! To me whole situation seems kinda bs. Maybe my understanding of history is messed up, but they were there 1st and pre WWII israel didnt exist and wasnt really populated. So...for these asshats to bitch'n moan and say its theirs is a crock. Also I know I could use a lil more historical knowledge on the subject, however that is how I see it currently.

Bubbaearl

12-28-2008, 08:32 AM

why in the hell should the world support the fucking rag heads ? they dont do shit . it's been proven time and time again they cant run a country , no industry , about as useless a population as there is. bunch of stupid thugs trying to impose their will on others . fuck'em let the jews kick there ass back to the desert where they belong. this crap has gone on long enough.

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

12-28-2008, 12:16 PM

sc281_99-0135

12-28-2008, 12:18 PM

X1000000...:D Israel is doing a damn good job kicking their ass too. I bet they dont lob any more rockets over there when they are done with them

ne can only hope they go through with it.

momo stallion

12-28-2008, 01:26 PM

when two kids fight over a toy, you should crush it right in front of their fucking faces.

one can only wish the whole area would be destroyed and rendered inhabitable. fuck israel and fuck palestine and fuck the history.

sc281_99-0135

12-28-2008, 01:31 PM

momo stallion

12-28-2008, 01:36 PM

but where will we find the paegans with nukes to pull it off?

lmao! :D maybe they will figure it out between themselves.

i frankly don't care what they do, i just wish we would quit wasting our time and resources on the situation and wish we quit trying to restrain Israel and let them take care of themselves... they are more than capable to dominate everyone that looks at them crookedly. a hot war might just be what that area needs.

sc281_99-0135

12-28-2008, 01:51 PM

lmao! :D maybe they will figure it out between themselves.

i frankly don't care what they do, i just wish we would quit wasting our time and resources on the situation and wish we quit trying to restrain Israel and let them take care of themselves... they are more than capable to dominate everyone that looks at them crookedly. a hot war might just be what that area needs.

It's exactly what the area needs. Israel has been held back when they should've been unleashed.

AL P

12-28-2008, 02:33 PM

Same old stuff, Palestinian dirtbags fire unguided rockets at civilians in Israel, the jews stomp a mudhole in some of their asses and of course it is the "zionists" who are to blame. Funny stuff.

black01gt

12-28-2008, 03:54 PM

Seems to me that when Israel starting thinking seriously about making a pile of debris where Iran used to be, the Palestinians started wih their pesky nipping at em. Is it a distraction?

jewozzy

12-28-2008, 06:30 PM

You just don't fuck with Jesus' home town.

You are using words that are too difficult for a shirpa backalacka ding dong muhammad jihad sympathing faggot to understand.

i thought his home town was nazareth?

edit: nevermind i thought i read where you said a diff city.

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

12-28-2008, 06:46 PM

black01gt

12-28-2008, 07:38 PM

They are still at it reports are saying this is the most force by Israel used in decades! They brought this onto themselves Israel gave them plenty of warnings if canada or mexico was shooting shit at the US we would do the same.
Of course. It would be ridiculous to argue if they're justified or not. I think it's a diversion to get their focus off Iran. Hamas taking an ass kicking for the Arab team...

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

12-28-2008, 07:49 PM

Of course. It would be ridiculous to argue if they're justified or not. I think it's a diversion to get their focus off Iran. Hamas taking an ass kicking for the Arab team...

Maybe they are trying to get rid of Irans nukes before our homeboy Obama gets into office! Hamas is definately geting an ass whooping Egypt is shooting them while they try to jump the wall. Crazy shit and to think all we are worried about is the cowboys taking an ass whooping from philly!

aggie97

12-28-2008, 08:02 PM

Of course. It would be ridiculous to argue if they're justified or not. I think it's a diversion to get their focus off Iran. Hamas taking an ass kicking for the Arab team...

I think Israel is more focused on Iran than WE are....10 fold and most of our intel probably comes from Israel on that subject. I wish I had a link to the Netanyahu interview from a few months back....it's scary the way he says he will go into Iran with or without the US...Their future depends on Iran NOT becoming a powerhouse.

Trip McNeely

12-28-2008, 08:07 PM

Well as far as I can tell Alemanenanananajad has said time and time again that Israel should be wiped off the map, blah blah, etc, etc.. I think its only a matter of time, and Israel should be proactive. Fuck Iran. Blow them off the map.

mikeb

12-28-2008, 10:27 PM

Denny

12-29-2008, 06:48 AM

Really, I'm starting to believe that the only way to deal with the Palestinians is to basically wipe them off the map. Standing strong will make the arabs think twice about starting something with israel.
Well, you know my take on it, bro.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is one way of understanding how bad Israel is kicking the shit out of Hamas:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081229/ts_nm/us_iran_israel_volunteer

We're either about to watch history being made or history PROVEN. :cool:

Bubbaearl

12-29-2008, 08:07 AM

well 50 years of talking has done shit . time to end this bullshit. i still want to know why in the hell the Palestinians think they are intitled to a free ride . they have never supported themselves or done shit . empty gasa and send their ass to iran or whoever wants them . secure the border and declare war on the first sob that screws with them. just as we would.

fitzwell

12-29-2008, 09:03 AM

Bombs away ..... you'd think the dumb fucks would learn by now not to pick a fight against Israel .

Yep. Took Egypt 6 days to figure that one out.

Fuck 'em, let Israel do what they need to do. Sweep up the pieces & carry on.

Bubbaearl

12-29-2008, 10:08 AM

they do it because all the stupid fucking rag heads without jobs protest and march . never mind the over 100 rockets fired at isreal in the last week. they just do this shit to get another handout from iran or the arabs. i can not understand why isreal has not stood up at the un and declared war on anyone attacking them . they should just say to hell with it and get it over with.

black01gt

12-29-2008, 10:15 AM

Crazy shit and to think all we are worried about is the cowboys taking an ass whooping from philly!
No need to worry any longer. :o What a bunch of "talented" fuckups!!! Makes you feel bad for Witten and the D line. The rest can suck eggs...

Now back to the OP.

Sean88gt

12-29-2008, 11:39 AM

Well, you know my take on it, bro.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is one way of understanding how bad Israel is kicking the shit out of Hamas:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081229/ts_nm/us_iran_israel_volunteer

We're either about to watch history being made or history PROVEN. :cool:

The Palestinians will be screaming 'AMU! AMU' (which I believe is Arabic for 'Uncle') and oddly enough the initials for Atomic Mass Units:D

The Jews just need to end the fight. I wonder how the complete and total destruction and occupying of the Palestinian territory would change the attitudes of the other towelies - or if it would?

mikeb

12-30-2008, 05:08 AM

The Palestinians will be screaming 'AMU! AMU' (which I believe is Arabic for 'Uncle') and oddly enough the initials for Atomic Mass Units:D

The Jews just need to end the fight. I wonder how the complete and total destruction and occupying of the Palestinian territory would change the attitudes of the other towelies - or if it would?

You are dealing with tribal, savage minded people. Under normal conditions they cannot get along amongst themselves, but when one branch of the "brotherhood" manages to stir up trouble, they all show up to protest/fight etc.

This is why the conflict exists, and will continue to exist no matter what israel does.

islam needs a renaissance similar to what happened with Christianity. Until then, the people that practice it will continue to hate, start wars, etc in islams name.

One interesting thing that I see is that apparently the palestenian people produce nothing of value. If it wasn't for israel providing them food and jobs they would wither up and blow away. Dumbasses.

AL P

12-30-2008, 08:26 AM

One interesting thing that I see is that apparently the palestenian people produce nothing of value. If it wasn't for israel providing them food and jobs they would wither up and blow away. Dumbasses.

This is true. And the Arabs love to keep them in that position so they will have a rallying cry for their politics. The bottom line in this situation is that Hamas needs to be completely destroyed. Any group that follows after their demise should also be destroyed.

fitzwell

12-30-2008, 08:31 AM

You are dealing with tribal, savage minded people. Under normal conditions they cannot get along amongst themselves, but when one branch of the "brotherhood" manages to stir up trouble, they all show up to protest/fight etc.
Dumbasses.

correct. Always makes me laugh when whatever news channel shows a clip of some raghead schmuck throwing rocks at a tank...and thinking it's working.

blownragtop

12-30-2008, 09:37 AM

Iraqi Parliamentarian to His People: "It's Not Between Palestinians and Israelis, it's Between Terrorists and Moderates"

Just spoke over the phone with Iraqi Parliamentarian Mithal al-Alusi, head of the Iraqi Nation Party in Baghdad, who advocates normalized relations between the new Iraq and Israel and promotes human rights in the Middle East. He says that, not surprisingly, the airwaves in Iraq are saturated with anti-Israel propaganda as Israel strikes back at Hamas for 3+ years of rocket attacks on Israel's southern towns. But interestingly, a significant number of Iraqis are not reflexively anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian, he says.

As Israel strikes back at Hamas, this champion of Iraqi-Israeli cooperation has been explaining to his fellow Iraqis, "the conflict is not between Palestinians and Israelis, it's between terrorists and moderates."

Alusi has made several trips to Israel to promote cooperation between Iraq and the Jewish state on counter-terrorism. In February, 2005, as revenge for Alusi's decision to break the longstanding taboo in the Arab world against visiting Israel, terrorists murdered his two sons, Ayman, 30, and Jamal, 22, who were helping their father build the Iraqi Nation Party, a political party dedicated to protecting human rights and promoting free markets and cooperation among democracies. But Alusi, an ideological pioneer in the middle east, refused to back down. He got his party, which his fallen sons had helped him establish, onto the ballot and in December, 2005 was elected to the Iraqi Parliament.

Tonight Alusi says that many Iraqis, while they are not necessarily sympathetic to Israel, are not pro-Palestinian either. Many, he says, feel they have been abused by Palestinians. For starters, some of the foreign-born suicide bombers who have tormented the Iraqi people in recent years have been Palestinian, and many ordinary Iraqis know it, and resent it. Also, Iraqis remember that many Palestinians were loyal to Saddam Hussein, who hideously abused Iraqis and whom most of them loathe the memory of (Saddam, remember, sent $25,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers for targeting Israeli civilians).

Furthermore, Alusi says that when he leaves Baghdad's Green Zone, as recently as the day before yesterday, "thousands of [Iraqi] people would like to shake hands. They know I was in Israel, and they are very positive."

Moreover, he maintains that the "realists" in Iraq-those people who are not fanatically religious or anti-democracy (and he maintains these "realists" are in the majority) "want to be normal" and are open to the idea of accepting Israel as "a modern country and a ... part of the middle east," especially if doing so would mean cooperating with Israel to protect Iraq against terrorist forces bankrolled by Iran. "Iraqis are willing to be free, to be normal," he says. "Pragmatic people are moving in the direction of normality."

While Alusi notes he is grieved by war and hopes Israel's operations minimize casualties to Palestinian civilians, he believes Israel must devastate Hamas.

"We understand why this fight started, and if someone starts something, he has to finish," he says. He also referred to connections between some of the extremist religious political parties in Iraq and Hamas, all of whom he says receive funding from Iran, and all of whom are the enemies of free people who oppose terrorism and fanaticism.

"Who do you think the Islamist parties are in Iraq?" he says. "If Hamas wins, they will also be stronger."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/heather-robinson/iraqi-parliamentarian-to_b_154134.html

Denny

12-30-2008, 09:57 AM

Right. Hamas is not an organized governing body or a military the represents anything.

AL P

12-30-2008, 10:29 AM

It is good to see that at least some people in Iraq have figured out what is going on here.

Big Thumper

12-30-2008, 12:34 PM

That's good reading. I would also like to think that our involvement in Iraq is further helping this POV among the Iraqi people.

67camino

12-30-2008, 12:40 PM

That's good reading. I would also like to think that our involvement in Iraq is further helping this POV among the Iraqi people.

So maybe Bush knew what he was doing?:o

Let the people think for themselves and see what happens.

black01gt

12-30-2008, 08:29 PM

You are dealing with tribal, savage minded people. Under normal conditions they cannot get along amongst themselves, but when one branch of the "brotherhood" manages to stir up trouble, they all show up to protest/fight etc.

Hey, you can't talk about dfwstangs like that!!! :blackeye:

:fest30: WTF???

mikeb

12-30-2008, 10:04 PM

Hey, you can't talk about dfwstangs like that!!! :blackeye:

:fest30: WTF???

Yeah, that does apply here also LOL......

Bubbaearl

12-31-2008, 08:03 AM

well the iranian students want to be suicide bombers now. sounds good but maybe they need to test a few thousand to make sure they go off. i got a feeling those dumb asses wont stay out of it. good reason for to turn iran into a new watershed .

Denny

12-31-2008, 08:06 AM

aggie97

12-31-2008, 08:10 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_israel_palestinians

Fucking savages...

Strike 2 for Israel to start up the war machine. If Iran even HINTS at supporting this, that country will be glowing bright with fires from bombs in about 12 minutes.

Bubbaearl

12-31-2008, 08:16 AM

Denny

12-31-2008, 08:17 AM

Strike 2 for Israel to start up the war machine. If Iran even HINTS at supporting this, that country will be glowing bright with fires from bombs in about 12 minutes.

More than just Iran and Israel are on alert about this crap, let me tell ya ;)

Denny

12-31-2008, 08:19 AM

sooner or later we're gonna have to play cowboys and musliums . i'm just a dumb hic but even i can see those worthless bastards will never live in piece with anyone. as far as i'm concerned firing rockets across the border is a declaration of war by the gazans as a whole. hamas is their choice of leadership . isreal should keep going until theres not one of the hamas bastards left breathing .

Althogh Hamas is not their choice of leadership, they're certainly not shooing them out. They need to be held accountable for not regulating them, as Lebannon was a while back... as Iran WILL be for their Iatola and President.

aggie97

12-31-2008, 08:21 AM

More than just Iran and Israel are on alert about this crap, let me tell ya ;)

Yeah, I think Israel and the world in general is about to get to a point of "enough is enough" and put an end to all this shit. The only holdup will be whether or not Obama has the balls to support it. I think Israel may escalate prior to 1/20 because they know Bush will say yes...in a way, forcing Obama's hand to get involved. The Israeli's want him focused on the middle east and not on handing out tax credits and big screens to the masses. He may need to put his "stimulus" plans on hold and spend money on a BIG war rather than highways.

Denny

12-31-2008, 08:51 AM

Yeah, I think Israel and the world in general is about to get to a point of "enough is enough" and put an end to all this shit. The only holdup will be whether or not Obama has the balls to support it. I think Israel may escalate prior to 1/20 because they know Bush will say yes...in a way, forcing Obama's hand to get involved. The Israeli's want him focused on the middle east and not on handing out tax credits and big screens to the masses. He may need to put his "stimulus" plans on hold and spend money on a BIG war rather than highways.

I just hope the US backs Israel. I've always had a bad feeling that one day, the US would not back Israel in their time of need, forcing me to make one of the toughest decisions of my life. The words in my signature are in respective order.

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 10:03 AM

Yea! Go and join up the fight for JESUS!!

How much more 16th century can you get?

black01gt

12-31-2008, 10:14 AM

Yea! Go and join up the fight for JESUS!!

How much more 16th century can you get?
I see it as pure self defense by Israel. Like swatting a fly that keeps annoying you. I guess I'll never understand why the concept of "just stop fucking with people" is so hard for the arab/muslim nations to understand but look forward to the day when the worlds patience with them has run out.

aggie97

12-31-2008, 10:23 AM

I just hope the US backs Israel. I've always had a bad feeling that one day, the US would not back Israel in their time of need, forcing me to make one of the toughest decisions of my life. The words in my signature are in respective order.

That is EXACTLY why they are acting NOW and NOT after 1/20/09....they have no faith in Obama (ie. Muslim) backing them so they are using this as a way to get us involved NOW. It may be their only chance. If they can draw in Iran to conflict, then the US and UN for that matter can't turn a blind eye. It's a hell of a gamble on Israel's part but a move I think they had to make.

Mr Majestyk

12-31-2008, 10:27 AM

Yea! Go and join up the fight for JESUS!!

How much more 16th century can you get?

You stupid fucking cunt. Learn about Jewish culture before showing your obvious ignorance, once again, by opening your rotten cum dumpster of a mouth.

Sean88gt

12-31-2008, 11:00 AM

Yea! Go and join up the fight for JESUS!!

How much more 16th century can you get?
Why not? Muslims fight and die for a fanaticism created by a child molester and do it in his name.

Bubbaearl

12-31-2008, 12:25 PM

Yea! Go and join up the fight for JESUS!!

How much more 16th century can you get?

is this moron for real ?

not gonna happen denny . not in our lifetime . the world turned it's back on the jews once and still feels the shame for it. we should have wiped germany off the map for it. i think the biggest mistake iran can make is to get into it. if they do it will take centuries to rebuild .

jones4stangs

12-31-2008, 01:34 PM

The IDF Spokesperson's Unit is the Israel Defense Forces' professional body responsible for media and public relations in Israel and around the world. This is our new site that will help us do so.

http://www.youtube.com/idfnadesk

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/qG0CzM_Frvc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/qG0CzM_Frvc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 03:29 PM

It’s not Zionism to favor democracy over shitocracy. Islam, by the fundamentalist definition, is an intolerant theocracy. This intolerance makes war unavoidable. And this intolerance will continue as long as the Islamic masses remain ignorant and cowardly pawns to bigoted clerics and petty dictators.
The same sentiments can be shared with the ignorance and intolerance of the followers of the Judeo-Christian theology as well. Both religions or sects of society are equally to blame here, as what they're actually fighting over is a strip of desert that should have no significance save for some extremely outdated myth that supports its existence in some stretch. The real problem is religion as a whole, if it wasn't for one group thinking their religion superior or more factual than the other, they would not find themselves in this clusterfuck.

And while it is not Zionist to accept the existence of Israel
This is the definition of Zionism, the secularized movement of individuals who support a Jewish homeland state. The Israeli government has politicized this savage notion to the point of no return, and they are feeling the heat. Does not the Torah explicitly state that the Jewish people are to live in exile forever? Does the fact that Orthodox Jews realize this and speak out in opposition to the savages in their government not speak volumes to you? Nobody's coming out of the sky to suck up all the christians into heaven... Stop dreaming, come back into reality.

– it is patently anti-Semitic to question the validity of the Jewish state.
Oh yea? Is that why orthodox, Hassidic Jews openly speak out against the establishment and occupation of the Jewish state? There is simply no validity to this statement. Get out of the 'US vs. Them' mentality and see the real truth here. I have nothing against Jewish people, but only the fact that they think they deserve a strip of land in the most heavily disputed region in the world. This reasoning is only grounded in the idea that they deserve to be there because the Bible says so. This brings them to the table for the very same reasons that everyone else is there, to kill everyone standing in the way of their religion in the name of their god. Both sides are wrong, this shit does not matter. History will prove this.

ANY movement that does not recognize Israel is grounded in irrational hate – and doomed to failure.
US vs. Them, again. This propaganda warfare has really gotten to you, hasn't it? How about, Israel is grounded in irrational hate - and doomed to failure? How does that sound? Certainly rolls off the tongue easier. If you truly believe this, I challenge you to back this statement up with something factual and can stand up to argumentation.

Peace in the Middle East will come, and only come, when the Muslim people extricate themselves from the shackles of a religion mired in the Dark Ages. The success of the West was a result of the interplay between church and state.
Wow. Your view of Islam is very, very misinformed and naive. Peace in the middle east will come when Christian nations stop meddling in their affairs, and stop fucking worrying about Jesus coming back, because it's not going to happen. Plain and simple. I do not move to support Islam in any way, only to point out that Islam is not much worse than the Judeo-Christian worldview, and throughout history they have both been equally violent and bloodthirsty savages that only tear each other apart in the name of some supernatural being. Islam is not the problem, it is the politicization of religion and the proliferation of irrational thoughts catalyzed by biblical prophecy and the thoughts of the 'second coming'. Give. Me. A. Break.
The success of the west was a result of the interplay between science and technology, not church and state. Any success we have had, in fact, has been due to the realization that the separation of the two is absolutely necessary. You really have a very narrow viewpoint regarding this situation, probably because you're probably a christian, effectively making it impossible to view this situation objectively. Can't say I'm surprised.

There is simply no inkling of truth in these statements either. If you think differently, you should really insert some strong premises to back up your conclusions, otherwise your arguments are completely invalid.

Judeo-christian theocracy, by comparison, is a stagnant cesspool that breeds nothing but contempt – a contempt that must be directed outward to avoid implosion. Because of this, ‘modern’ Judeo-christian society has become a cultural, political and intellectual backwater.

Still makes sense, doesn't it?

True, Islam is a very bad and outdated religion, Ill give you that, and those that follow it are unreasonably ruining their lives and the lives of others in the process of keeping this faith. But this holds true of nearly all people of faith, especially those that feel strongly enough to join up the 'good' fight and take human lives and property (land) in the name of theirGod---ANY God. They see it as God's will to perform these unjust acts, as opposition to those that do the same to them. We are no more morally righteous than they when we move to counteract terror with only more terror in return. This makes no sense, as it brings us nowhere further, sadly, I'm sorry you can't see that.

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 03:32 PM

is this moron for real ?

Moron? ahahahaha Is that your nickname for me so you can marginalize my opinions, or to demean my position? So quick to lose your composure and call people names. You know, kids do that?

What makes you think I'm a moron? Please explain.

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 03:33 PM

Why not? Muslims fight and die for a fanaticism created by a child molester and do it in his name.

And why do you think that is?

Is this reaction the logical and morally sound one? Should we be equally as moronic to add fuel to the fire be fighting back? Doing this only makes the problem worse, there's too much history in these people for them to just lay down. Take religion out and it's a whole new ballgame. If it wasn't for religion nobody would give the slightest fuck about Israel, period.

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 03:38 PM

You stupid fucking cunt. Learn about Jewish culture before showing your obvious ignorance, once again, by opening your rotten cum dumpster of a mouth.

You're such an adult. Wow! Such maturity and composure! And the word choice.. Impressive! A++

What makes you think I don't know anything about Jewish culture? I probably know alot more than you think I do, sir. You're so diluted...

AL P

12-31-2008, 03:51 PM

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 03:55 PM

I see it as pure self defense by Israel. Like swatting a fly that keeps annoying you. I guess I'll never understand why the concept of "just stop fucking with people" is so hard for the arab/muslim nations to understand but look forward to the day when the worlds patience with them has run out.

I understand, but the opposite view can also be held and defended, and it is. I'm sure they'll stop fucking with people just as soon as they're not being fucked with anymore. For this reason that quoted viewpoint is not the logical one, but rather, the one that causes many more problems. Many defend the opposite argument by saying that they're defending their own interests. Until the interests of all parties involved are satisfied, there will continue to be ongoing conflict without an end in sight. Why is it that the Jewish people are the only ones whose interests should be satisfied?

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 03:58 PM

Islam IS the problem. It remains a 5th century religion. I haven't seen the Christians launch any crusades lately but I've seen plenty of declarations of jihad. To say that Christianity and Islam have some of parity in regard to the atrocities they commit in modern times is laughable.

This is undoubtedly a religious war, and more muslims have died than christians.

Easily.

Atrocities? Hmm. There have been many propagated by the Judeo-Christian followers, but they're often done underhandedly. You're right, Islam is the problem. But so is Judeo-christianity, they're both equally to blame for this debacle.

flashstang04

12-31-2008, 04:12 PM

thesource

12-31-2008, 04:23 PM

This is undoubtedly a religious war, and more muslims have died than christians.

Maybe thats because they out number them 5-1 . Anyone who thinks the Jews are going to sit around and let someone lob rockets at them is fucking crazy . Just like said above about Mexico shooting rockets into Texas , we'd clean their fucking clocks before sun down .

Geor!

12-31-2008, 04:26 PM

My God's better than your God.

HoLLoWkaTZ

12-31-2008, 04:38 PM

I just hope the US backs Israel. I've always had a bad feeling that one day, the US would not back Israel in their time of need, forcing me to make one of the toughest decisions of my life. The words in my signature are in respective order.

The US will always have Israel's back. Israel has all the money to keep the US right behind them every step of the way. Even when they are killing 10 year old Palestinians.

Mr Majestyk

12-31-2008, 05:08 PM

You're such an adult. Wow! Such maturity and composure! And the word choice.. Impressive! A++

What makes you think I don't know anything about Jewish culture? I probably know alot more than you think I do, sir. You're so diluted...

So Israel is fighting for, in your own words, "JESUS". What exactly does Jesus have to do with Judaism and the Jewish people's right to occupy the land given to their ancestors? Please do tell us.

Like I posted before, you remain a stupid....fucking.....cunt.

5.0 svo

12-31-2008, 06:39 PM

32VfromHell

12-31-2008, 06:59 PM

I have to agree with Zarathustra. I think the whole problem is religion (all of them). If no one beleived in an afterlife, there would be alot less hatred in this world. People would cherrish the short life they have. The closest we will ever be to immortality is our children.
I think the key is education.

Why do people beleive in religion:
A. They were brought up that way
B. They are just dumb (gullable)
C. They are close to death (or think they are)
D. They have done something in thier life that they are ashamed of

Example: If David Korresh lived 2000 years ago, would he have taken the place of Jesus? Without modern technology to document everything that happen, He would for certain have a large following. People have already killed because of what happen. Look at the Oklahoma City bombing. Jesus Christ was merely a political rebel just as David Koresh.

Karl Marx had the same ideas about religion as being hinderances on the human experiences. Those who followed in his footsteps at creating religion-free countries created two of the most bloodthirsty and amoral regimes in the history of the world (china and the USSR). Countless ancient chinese treasures of the past were destroyed for being buddhist, a "backwards" train of thought.

And besides, religion isnt the problem. You dont see the Hopi Indians stirring up holy wars.

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 08:19 PM

Maybe thats because they out number them 5-1 . Anyone who thinks the Jews are going to sit around and let someone lob rockets at them is fucking crazy . Just like said above about Mexico shooting rockets into Texas , we'd clean their fucking clocks before sun down .

Agreed. Maybe I was misunderstood. I do not condone these rocket attacks in any way. People go to extreme means of having their voices heard. I'm pretty sure why they're probably doing it, and to them, it's just as strong a sense of duty that brought them to violence as the Zionist movement that brought the world Israel.

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 08:39 PM

Karl Marx had the same ideas about religion as being hinderances on the human experiences. Those who followed in his footsteps at creating religion-free countries created two of the most bloodthirsty and amoral regimes in the history of the world (china and the USSR). Countless ancient chinese treasures of the past were destroyed for being buddhist, a "backwards" train of thought.

And besides, religion isnt the problem. You dont see the Hopi Indians stirring up holy wars.

In my opinion it would be a mistake to gauge the successes or failures of the communist ideal on the monumental inadequacies of the countries that have called themselves communist and failed miserably. Both of the countries which you refer to had leaders that changed fundamental aspects of Marx's ideas and formed their own respective philosophies through the interpretation of Marxian ideas. Stalinism and Maoism were each different in their own ways from Marx's idea of a stateless, classless society aside from being completely secular and eradicating private property. They both were stalled in their attempts to attain a true communist society because of their leader's hunger for political power.

You don't see Hopi Indians stirring up holy wars because there isn't a billion of them and the Navajos aren't trying to take their land and fuck them over. Wait that's backwards, the Hopis are like the Jews here, I think. Ah Fuck, there's not even 10,000 of them, bad analogy.

Zarathustra

12-31-2008, 08:46 PM

So Israel is fighting for, in your own words, "JESUS". What exactly does Jesus have to do with Judaism and the Jewish people's right to occupy the land given to their ancestors? Please do tell us.

Like I posted before, you remain a stupid....fucking.....cunt.

BAN HIM!:banghead::banghead:

line-em-up

12-31-2008, 09:06 PM

My God's better than your God.

My God can kick your God's ass. :saeek:

sc281_99-0135

12-31-2008, 09:11 PM

My God can kick your God's ass. :saeek:

doesnt look like it to me :rolleyes:

http://waxy.org/random/images/weblog/gay_satan.jpg

Sean88gt

12-31-2008, 10:08 PM

I have to agree with Zarathustra. I think the whole problem is religion (all of them). If no one beleived in an afterlife, there would be alot less hatred in this world. People would cherrish the short life they have. The closest we will ever be to immortality is our children.
I think the key is education.

Why do people beleive in religion:
A. They were brought up that way
B. They are just dumb (gullable)
C. They are close to death (or think they are)
D. They have done something in thier life that they are ashamed of

I think this is a gross over generalization. I wasn't/aren't any of the 4 choices listed. When I made the choice to become a Christian I was at a rather content period in my life and just went to church to go. I wasn't driven, or forced in by feelings of guilt, etc.

Granted, I'm not what would be considered a typical Christian, but believe that Christ is my savior.

I think you are also taking the human element out of it. People will do their best to acknowledge people that rub them wrong (regardless of race, religion, gender, etc). Ever meet someone that just annoys you? I have. And when I'm annoyed and wanting to choke that person, I'm not thinking about any after life;)

Mr Majestyk

12-31-2008, 10:16 PM

BAN HIM!:banghead::banghead:

Fuck you, FudgePecker

line-em-up

12-31-2008, 11:23 PM

doesnt look like it to me :rolleyes:

http://waxy.org/random/images/weblog/gay_satan.jpg

I kid. I'm just carrying on like a 5 year old talking about how his "dad can beat of your dad".

Denny

12-31-2008, 11:52 PM

What Zara, the retard fails to realize is that Israel isn't going on an offensive. They're retaliating against a thug group. I will support, defend and back Israel because I am told to by God. No where does God say to slaughter a people that doesn't believe in Him. That's not our job. We are not judges. Of course, a biased, rather brainwashed simpleton like Zara just sees any foe of Israel as a victim. He is truely the epitomy of retardation.

Murder and terminating a threat are two different things.

Funny thing is, the people he defends couldn't give a shit less about him either. They'd be just as tickled to see him die too. He's a heathen by anyone's standards. Christians would just pity him as the Muslims would behead him.

blownragtop

01-01-2009, 01:41 AM

The same sentiments can be shared with the ignorance and intolerance of the followers of the Judeo-Christian theology as well. Both religions or sects of society are equally to blame here, as what they're actually fighting over is a strip of desert that should have no significance save for some extremely outdated myth that supports its existence in some stretch. The real problem is religion as a whole, if it wasn't for one group thinking their religion superior or more factual than the other, they would not find themselves in this clusterfuck.

This is the definition of Zionism, the secularized movement of individuals who support a Jewish homeland state. The Israeli government has politicized this savage notion to the point of no return, and they are feeling the heat. Does not the Torah explicitly state that the Jewish people are to live in exile forever? Does the fact that Orthodox Jews realize this and speak out in opposition to the savages in their government not speak volumes to you? Nobody's coming out of the sky to suck up all the christians into heaven... Stop dreaming, come back into reality.

Oh yea? Is that why orthodox, Hassidic Jews openly speak out against the establishment and occupation of the Jewish state? There is simply no validity to this statement. Get out of the 'US vs. Them' mentality and see the real truth here. I have nothing against Jewish people, but only the fact that they think they deserve a strip of land in the most heavily disputed region in the world. This reasoning is only grounded in the idea that they deserve to be there because the Bible says so. This brings them to the table for the very same reasons that everyone else is there, to kill everyone standing in the way of their religion in the name of their god. Both sides are wrong, this shit does not matter. History will prove this.

US vs. Them, again. This propaganda warfare has really gotten to you, hasn't it? How about, Israel is grounded in irrational hate - and doomed to failure? How does that sound? Certainly rolls off the tongue easier. If you truly believe this, I challenge you to back this statement up with something factual and can stand up to argumentation.

Wow. Your view of Islam is very, very misinformed and naive. Peace in the middle east will come when Christian nations stop meddling in their affairs, and stop fucking worrying about Jesus coming back, because it's not going to happen. Plain and simple. I do not move to support Islam in any way, only to point out that Islam is not much worse than the Judeo-Christian worldview, and throughout history they have both been equally violent and bloodthirsty savages that only tear each other apart in the name of some supernatural being. Islam is not the problem, it is the politicization of religion and the proliferation of irrational thoughts catalyzed by biblical prophecy and the thoughts of the 'second coming'. Give. Me. A. Break.

It’s a shame you wasted all that time typing the wrong answer. Don’t go off on weird tangents…

And while it is not Zionist to accept the existence of Israel…

Read that again and maybe it will make sense the second time around.

You’re trying, desperately, to find a religious argument where there is none. Israel, as a nation, exists. Period. Fait accompli . It has for over 60 years. 5-1/2 million Jews aren’t going to pack up and leave because a bunch of Islamofacists don’t want to deal with reality. Since Israel exists - any movement that doesn’t accept this fundamental premise is a nonstarter. The disappearance of a nuclear Israel is the wishful thinking of Jew-hating Pan-Arabists… like you.

The more fundamental (and intelligent) question to be raised is: what threat does the existence of Israel pose to the region?

Israel accepts the existence of its Arab neighbors – even accepts the existence of a Palestinian state. Israel is a secular, progressive democracy that recognizes the rights of its Arab citizens and observes freedom of religion. And there’s the rub.

To the Islamofacists such demonstrations of a progressive and tolerant society are an affront to their autocratic designs. Wouldn’t want to tempt the masses of prayer rug automatons with a whiff of free will – might lose control. Israel doesn’t pose a threat to Arabs or Islam – only to Islamic Fundamentalists hell-bent on keeping their people enslaved.

Repressive regimes that rely on religious police to intimidate their citizens into conformity are always going to be threatened by ‘Western’ concepts like ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’. The Iraqis are beginning to understand this (as alluded to in the article I posted earlier). Their fledgling government is being assailed by Iranian backed terrorists in a concerted effort to prevent the roots of democracy from taking hold.

This hatred of ‘all things West’ serves as a rallying cry for all the long suffering Arab peoples of the region. The Israeli/Palestinian issue is just the most obvious manifestation of this hate. And the most ludicrous. The Palestinian people are nothing but pawns to their Arab brothers.

Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees ... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes ....

Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war, from his 1972 memoirs

Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem in an irresponsible manner.... they have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and, I could say, even criminal.

King Hussein of Jordan, 1960

The success of the west was a result of the interplay between science and technology, not church and state. Any success we have had, in fact, has been due to the realization that the separation of the two is absolutely necessary. You really have a very narrow viewpoint regarding this situation, probably because you're probably a christian, effectively making it impossible to view this situation objectively. Can't say I'm surprised...

True, Islam is a very bad and outdated religion, Ill give you that, and those that follow it are unreasonably ruining their lives and the lives of others in the process of keeping this faith. But this holds true of nearly all people of faith, especially those that feel strongly enough to join up the 'good' fight and take human lives and property (land) in the name of theirGod---ANY God. They see it as God's will to perform these unjust acts, as opposition to those that do the same to them. We are no more morally righteous than they when we move to counteract terror with only more terror in return. This makes no sense, as it brings us nowhere further, sadly, I'm sorry you can't see that.

In the West, the separation of church and state and the power struggles that ensued between Papal and Imperial authority created a dynamic interplay that tended toward (progressive) change rather than crystallization. This ‘balance of power’ prevented either side from becoming too powerful and moved the West toward becoming a civilization of rational law.

Since Islamic theocracy has no such catalyst for change, no check on its power, it’s ripe for abuse and stagnation. The ‘modern’ Muslim world is testimony to Islam’s fall from Enlightenment to Fundamentalism.

My viewpoint of the Middle East is that of an objective realist. It’s a shame, though not surprising given your history, you allow your hatred of (Judeo/Christian) religion to prejudice your opinions – your bigotry is stupefying.

black01gt

01-01-2009, 01:46 AM

Why is it that the Jewish people are the only ones whose interests should be satisfied?
Good question. Because currently they're the ones innocently minding their own business, trying to have productive lives, and having rockets lobbed at their citizens by mindless thugs who apparently have no interest in trying to live decent and productive lives. Hamas and Palestine brought this on themselves and it's absurd to try and say they didn't. But I still think it's a diversionary tactic to benefit Iran.

Zarathustra

01-01-2009, 01:52 AM

What Zara, the retard fails to realize is that Israel isn't going on an offensive. They're retaliating against a thug group.

No, I got that, Chief, going on offensives is America's duty. Perhaps you could explain why this group is so thuggish and reveal its motives for the rest of us?

I will support, defend and back Israel because I am told to by God. :eek2:
This is the craziest shit I've ever heard. You can not be serious. Did you have a vision, a burning bush? This is exactly what they say!! You are just as bad as them. Savages, all of you!

No where does God say to slaughter a people that doesn't believe in Him.Yea, we 'just do it anyway.

That's not our job. We are not judges. Of course, a biased, rather brainwashed simpleton like Zara just sees any foe of Israel as a victim. He is truely the epitomy of retardation.

Didn't win the spelling bee, I see.
Could you explain how I am biased and brainwashed? I prefer informed, aware, or maybe even (gasp) reasonable. I'm looking at this situation a hundred times more open minded and objectively than yourself. This much is painfully obvious.

Murder and terminating a threat are two different things.
Well, sir, do not the Palestinians consider Israel a threat? Both sides see it as eliminating a threat, or trying at least. I see them both as murder. Even you're smart enough to know that. How many people are living in squalid conditions with little to nothing in Gaza? They're living in shit, while Israel next door keeps inching their way into their souls through every possible avenue.

Funny thing is, the people he defends couldn't give a shit less about him either. They'd be just as tickled to see him die too. He's a heathen by anyone's standards. Christians would just pity him as the Muslims would behead him.
I defend no one person or group of persons. You can't even see what I'm saying, let alone critically think about what it is I'm getting at. I'm condemning all parties involved for not being rational enough to realize the fact that religion is absolutely life-threatening, and everyone who believes in it is literally a bag of bones waiting for the afterlife. This proves detrimental to the human condition on so many different levels, creating lifetimes of suffering for all parties involved, as is being seen in the situation which we discuss. Can't you see you're as big a part of a problem as they are? That makes you just as savage and bloodthirsty as the people you've grown up to hate and literally be disgusted by, as you've admitted. Why can't you see you're part of the problem?

There's something inherently immoral and non-judeo-christian about all that, any rational person should see this. I don't see why you still feel the need to attack me like you do. Foolish, childlike nicknames, come on, you've got to do better than that. Did your god also tell you to ridicule those that do not believe the same things you do?

Hey man, you ever heard about the Jews against Zionism? They are Torah Jews, orthodox jews who are against Zionism. They express the fundamental idea that Zionism only promotes anti-semitism. Make any sense?

Here, this is taken directly from one of their websites:
"Far from being the saviors of the Jewish People, the Zionists are the true self-hating Jews who have had nothing but contempt and outright hatred for the Jewish People and Judaism. Anti-Semitism has been the oxygen and lifeblood of the Zionists throughout the ages to the present day.

By contrast, we anti-Zionist Jews having been doing all we can to reduce hatred of Jews by proclaiming the true nature of the Jewish religion in contrast to the heresy and idolatry of Zionism. We hope this will help Jews awaken from the brainwashing of the Zionists. "

How's that logic sound?

Zarathustra

01-01-2009, 02:44 AM

Good question. Because currently they're the ones innocently minding their own business, trying to have productive lives, and having rockets lobbed at their citizens by mindless thugs who apparently have no interest in trying to live decent and productive lives. Hamas and Palestine brought this on themselves and it's absurd to try and say they didn't. But I still think it's a diversionary tactic to benefit Iran.

Innocently minding their own business, huh? Right, perhaps it also has to do with the fact that a total Israeli blockade of Gaza has pushed them to the brink of survival and they have no choice but to make their voices heard? These people are starving. What would you do? To help my further illustrate my point I'll refer to this recent article I found with a quick search. The unbiased truth is out there, we just have to find it. Not saying this is it, but it helps us get closer if nothing else.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/letters/seeds-of-horror-sown-by-blockade-20081229-76sj.html?page=-1
I found this article, some good reading. Please, I encourage you..

Some interesting tidbits

"THE brutal, criminal attack by the Israelis on the desperate people of Gaza has its roots in the total Israeli blockade of Gaza, denying the people basic needs such as food, fuel and medicine. This has been highlighted in the past two months by UN High Commissioner Mary Robinson, Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the head of the UN's refugee relief organisation in Gaza."

I know the first sentence might rub most of you the wrong way, but it represents the viewpoints of many.

"The facts speak for themselves: 39 Israelis have been killed by Palestinians in Gaza in the past eight years, while nearly 3000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel, according to B'tselem, the Israeli information centre for human rights in the occupied territories. In the past 48 hours, more than 300 Palestinians have been killed and hundreds more injured. One-third are civilians living in the most densely populated area on earth."

"Israel has given the people of Gaza two choices: either they live near starvation level or are killed by the Israeli bombing. Not much of a choice for anyone."

"THE violence between Israel and Palestine is an inevitable outcome of failed policies from all sides of the equation. The Palestinian people have the right to an independent state, something Israel already has. We cannot expect the Palestinians to live in prison-camp conditions — their just aspirations are for things we take a little too lightly and for granted.

Until all the world powers take seriously the just claims of the Palestinians, the unrest, violence and deaths will continue."

That's what I mean by their interests. And no, I did not read this article and base these arguments on it from the start. Honestly, I just found it to try to find kind of proof of how poor the conditions are in Gaza as a result the Israeli blockade of food, fuel, medicine, basic supplies, drinking water, and power. I see this as the Palestinian people fighting back with everything they have against an opposing force with more power than they will ever have. These people have nothing, they're fighting for their lives, or their quality of life. They've been pushed back further and further over the years making their growing population denser and more competitive over extremely limited resources. Is the Israeli government opposed to an autonomous Palestinian state? I think so...

Imagine being a young Palestinian child, what kind of life is that for a human being to grow up with? Can you imagine? It's no life I would want for my kid, that's for sure.

So they push them to the brink of survival, where any human would fight back against oppression, and then play the victim when the rockets land, justifying in the eyes of many the consequent savage acts of bombing 'strategic targets' and destroying the lives of countless human beings that are among the least well off in the entire world. They're already eating their own shit to survive, and here we are praising Israel for 'fighting back', and 'defending themselves'. More civilians are murdered every day for the actions of a few and we just sit back and condone it.

Like was said earlier, Zionism is the soil out of which anti-semitism grows and thrives.

Denny

01-01-2009, 02:49 AM

No, I got that, Chief, going on offensives is America's duty. Perhaps you could explain why this group is so thuggish and reveal its motives for the rest of us?
Their motive is purely hate. Nothing more, nothing less. They are thuggish because they lob mortars and rockets into Israel unsolicitedly AND without a target... whatever damage/injury occurs is just a plus for them.

This is the craziest shit I've ever heard. You can not be serious. Did you have a vision, a burning bush? This is exactly what they say!! You are just as bad as them. Savages, all of you![?QUOTE]
Defending God's chosen people (under direction, mind you) is crazy?!?! I get it from the Word of God. Something that's obviously beyoud your comprehension. Open a Bible with an open mind some time.

[QUOTE=Zarathustra]Yea, we 'just do it anyway.
Like I said, defending a people is what it is all about.

Didn't win the spelling bee, I see.
No, but I can win this debate. I guess, in the end, that's all that matters. Unless we need a boxing match as a tie breaker. 34 days until I'm back in the States. How's it sound?
Could you explain how I am biased and brainwashed? I prefer informed, aware, or maybe even (gasp) reasonable. I'm looking at this situation a hundred times more open minded and objectively than yourself. This much is painfully obvious.
No. You time and time again, take the side of the poor little savages. We didn't hear a peep from you until Israel opened a can on them.

Well, sir, do not the Palestinians consider Israel a threat? Both sides see it as eliminating a threat, or trying at least. I see them both as murder. Even you're smart enough to know that. How many people are living in squalid conditions with little to nothing in Gaza? They're living in shit, while Israel next door keeps inching their way into their souls through every possible avenue.
Well, Israel does nothing to instigate this, they only retaliate. All I hear from you is bitch, bitch, bitch about their actions. I still have yet to see the problem. Israel has shown more tolerance over the years than any other nation EVER. Your ignorance amuses me!

I defend no one person or group of persons. You can't even see what I'm saying, let alone critically think about what it is I'm getting at. I'm condemning all parties involved for not being rational enough to realize the fact that religion is absolutely life-threatening, and everyone who believes in it is literally a bag of bones waiting for the afterlife. This proves detrimental to the human condition on so many different levels, creating lifetimes of suffering for all parties involved, as is being seen in the situation which we discuss. Can't you see you're as big a part of a problem as they are? That makes you just as savage and bloodthirsty as the people you've grown up to hate and literally be disgusted by, as you've admitted. Why can't you see you're part of the problem?
Your idea of religion falls right in line with the extremists. Congratulations. My "religion" matches that of no one else on this earth. Mine is all about a personal relationship with God. It's all about loving one another, which is why defending the Jews falls right in line with that.

There's something inherently immoral and non-judeo-christian about all that, any rational person should see this. I don't see why you still feel the need to attack me like you do. Foolish, childlike nicknames, come on, you've got to do better than that. Did your god also tell you to ridicule those that do not believe the same things you do?
Nope. I'm totally on my own here. SHame on me for calling a dumbass a dumbass. Just because I'd put one upside your head, doesn't mean I love you (or anyone) any less. I just wish you'd have half a brain.

Hey man, you ever heard about the Jews against Zionism? They are Torah Jews, orthodox jews who are against Zionism. They express the fundamental idea that Zionism only promotes anti-semitism. Make any sense?

Here, this is taken directly from one of their websites:
"Far from being the saviors of the Jewish People, the Zionists are the true self-hating Jews who have had nothing but contempt and outright hatred for the Jewish People and Judaism. Anti-Semitism has been the oxygen and lifeblood of the Zionists throughout the ages to the present day.

By contrast, we anti-Zionist Jews having been doing all we can to reduce hatred of Jews by proclaiming the true nature of the Jewish religion in contrast to the heresy and idolatry of Zionism. We hope this will help Jews awaken from the brainwashing of the Zionists. "

How's that logic sound?
So, what is your point? I'm still trying to figure out who you're pointing the Zionist finger at.

Denny

01-01-2009, 02:55 AM

I also noticed how Zara failed to mention anything about Iranians volunteering to be suicide bombers agaist Israel. Biased? Nah... just a small oversight. LMFAO!!! He's making gpamp look ALMOST decent.

32VfromHell

01-01-2009, 09:16 AM

In my opinion it would be a mistake to gauge the successes or failures of the communist ideal on the monumental inadequacies of the countries that have called themselves communist and failed miserably. Both of the countries which you refer to had leaders that changed fundamental aspects of Marx's ideas and formed their own respective philosophies through the interpretation of Marxian ideas. Stalinism and Maoism were each different in their own ways from Marx's idea of a stateless, classless society aside from being completely secular and eradicating private property. They both were stalled in their attempts to attain a true communist society because of their leader's hunger for political power.

You don't see Hopi Indians stirring up holy wars because there isn't a billion of them and the Navajos aren't trying to take their land and fuck them over. Wait that's backwards, the Hopis are like the Jews here, I think. Ah Fuck, there's not even 10,000 of them, bad analogy.

Marx's ideas were flawed from the beginning. Yes, Both Stalin and Mao changed up his ideas (some for the better, like Mao focusing on the peasant rather than the working class) but the issue was the same. Marx left out the human element in all his robotic society's plan, and his whole idea of a worldwide communist revolution failed because it couldnt sell itself.

You make a decent point about the Hopi Indians. However, look at the Tibetans. They are being throttled by the Chinese and you see a resistance movement, but no tibetan monks have blown themselves up outside chinese nightclubs.

Come to think of adversity, have the muslims had to deal with enough oppression to threaten their vary existance? All i can really think of is maybe stifling under both the crusades and colonial rule from europe, but thats it. Christians had the romans, Jews had well, everything up until the holocaust. Hindu's had the Mughal (Muslim) invasion as another example of a test. I guess the point being is that it seems lots of other religions seem to see the plight for survival that israel is going through, and the muslim's dont because i dont think that they have it ingrained in their own lore and history of a time period where they too were almost destroyed by much larger enemies.

Mr Majestyk

01-01-2009, 10:35 AM

Still waiting for FudgePecker to provide details to back his idiotic statement that the conflict in Israel is a fight for JESUS. Do tell us the connection between the two, 'Pecker.

mikeb

01-01-2009, 10:39 AM

Marx's ideas were flawed from the beginning. Yes, Both Stalin and Mao changed up his ideas (some for the better, like Mao focusing on the peasant rather than the working class) but the issue was the same. Marx left out the human element in all his robotic society's plan, and his whole idea of a worldwide communist revolution failed because it couldnt sell itself.

You make a decent point about the Hopi Indians. However, look at the Tibetans. They are being throttled by the Chinese and you see a resistance movement, but no tibetan monks have blown themselves up outside chinese nightclubs.

Come to think of adversity, have the muslims had to deal with enough oppression to threaten their vary existance? All i can really think of is maybe stifling under both the crusades and colonial rule from europe, but thats it. Christians had the romans, Jews had well, everything up until the holocaust. Hindu's had the Mughal (Muslim) invasion as another example of a test. I guess the point being is that it seems lots of other religions seem to see the plight for survival that israel is going through, and the muslim's dont because i dont think that they have it ingrained in their own lore and history of a time period where they too were almost destroyed by much larger enemies.

The problem with communism is that it ignores human nature. Having initiative is not rewarded, and the communist experience is the same day in and day out. Capitalism, with all of its warts, is the opposite. The only thing generally holding you back is you and your abilities.

5.0 svo

01-01-2009, 10:46 AM

Unless we need a boxing match as a tie breaker. 34 days until I'm back in the States. How's it sound?

Mine is all about a personal relationship with God. It's all about loving one another

Your boxing match is another mans bomb strapped to his belly. Get a clue.

Denny

01-01-2009, 10:51 AM

Your boxing match is another mans bomb strapped to his belly. Get a clue.

No it's not, you dolt. I'm just showing him his ridiculousness of pointing out a spelling error when trying to argue his point.

Bunch of fucking dumbasses on this board, I tell ya:rolleyes:

And it's not even close... no where near.

Denny

01-01-2009, 10:53 AM

BTW, way to cut the second part of that quote off. selective reading is a bitch, huh?

Vertnut

01-01-2009, 11:17 AM

sc281_99-0135

01-01-2009, 11:27 AM

It's "deluded", you Mensa Master, you.
You're such a fucking poseur...:rolleyes:

LMAO!!

zara :dunce: got OWNED!!!

Sean88gt

01-01-2009, 11:30 AM

It's "deluded", you Mensa Master, you.
You're such a fucking poseur...:rolleyes:

Maybe he's talking about Denny as if he were a liquid substance, or maybe even the value of a stock.

Sean88gt

01-01-2009, 11:31 AM

I defend no one person or group of persons.

Are you serious? You couldn't cram another set of Palestinian balls in your mouth. You are just waiting for the gates to drop so you can lap at their assholes like a thirsty dog.

You should consider putting a placard of your views outside of your business and see what the retention rate is.

May the fleas of 10,000 camels infest your tacos!

sc281_99-0135

01-01-2009, 11:34 AM

Are you serious? You couldn't cram another set of Palestinian balls in your mouth. You are just waiting for the gates to drop so you can lap at their assholes like a thirsty dog.

You should consider putting a placard of your views outside of your parents business and see what the retention rate is.

May the fleas of 10,000 camels infest your tacos!

fixed

Sean88gt

01-01-2009, 11:55 AM

fixed

I forgot about that. I still would like to know where it is at?

sc281_99-0135

01-01-2009, 12:01 PM

I forgot about that. I still would like to know where it is at?

Its funny, with his parents obviously embracing capitalism by owning their own business, i wonder why hes so for socialistic views and defending the stifling doctrine of an archaic religion.

His parents must not have loved him and didnt "share the wealth" :biglaugh:

Sean88gt

01-01-2009, 12:04 PM

Its funny, with his parents obviously embracing capitalism by owning their own business, i wonder why hes so for socialistic views and defending the stifling doctrine of an archaic religion.

His parents must not have loved him and didnt "share the wealth" :biglaugh:

That's the problem, they did share the wealth and never taught him the value of earning it on his own. He's a snot nosed little shithead. He'll learn of their mistakes when they die, he can't run the business and has to sell it to someone else, hopefully a Jew, and all he has to show for his life on the tit is a job as a taco stuffer.

Zarathustra

01-01-2009, 01:08 PM

It's "deluded", you Mensa Master, you.
You're such a fucking poseur...:rolleyes:

Oh I meant diluted.

Thanks though.

:fuckyou:

Zarathustra

01-01-2009, 01:21 PM

That's the problem, they did share the wealth and never taught him the value of earning it on his own. He's a snot nosed little shithead. He'll learn of their mistakes when they die, he can't run the business and has to sell it to someone else, hopefully a Jew, and all he has to show for his life on the tit is a job as a taco stuffer.

Sorry buddy, as much as you'd like to think you do, YOU DO NOT KNOW ME. Stop trying to act like it.

It's obvious you've moved to talking childish shit about me, like you guys always do, because you can't keep up with my arguments. Same old story.

Why can't you people stop talking about me? Did you even read my posts?

Refute my arguments, or GTFO, this is not about me, it's about what I'm saying. Why can't you just refute my arguments without referring to the fact that my family owns a chain of restaurants? Has absolutely nothing to do with the palestinian/israeli conflict.

Get the fuck back on topic. This is no place for advertising my personal life. You guys know that, but don't have the tact enough to out and out refute my arguments with logical responses, instead act like fucking children and start attacking me.

:kabong:

Zarathustra

01-01-2009, 01:26 PM

Are you serious? You couldn't cram another set of Palestinian balls in your mouth. You are just waiting for the gates to drop so you can lap at their assholes like a thirsty dog.

You should consider putting a placard of your views outside of your business and see what the retention rate is.

May the fleas of 10,000 camels infest your tacos!

I'm not defending anyone, dude. Look at what I'm saying. Why are you so ignorant?

Zarathustra

01-01-2009, 01:35 PM

Its funny, with his parents obviously embracing capitalism by owning their own business, i wonder why hes so for socialistic views and defending the stifling doctrine of an archaic religion.

His parents must not have loved him and didnt "share the wealth" :biglaugh:

How do you figure I'm 'for' socialistic views and defending the stifling doctrine of an archaic religion? I'm not defending any religion at all, but condemning them altogether as one bad fucking way of life. Every religion is a mental crippling, Judeo-Christianity is just as bad as Islam. Can't you see? Religion is the problem. Without it we would not find ourselves in this clusterfuck.

Read my posts and refute my arguments and stop talking shit about me. The things I say are true, and it's too hard for you to prove me wrong so you start talking shit like a damn kid. Good job though.

sc281_99-0135

01-01-2009, 01:44 PM

How do you figure I'm 'for' socialistic view

I figured since you cannot listen to any reasoning but your own, i'll just quote you from previous posts from now on....
this is gonna be fun

In my opinion it would be a mistake to gauge the successes or failures of the communist ideal on the monumental inadequacies of the countries that have called themselves communist and failed miserably. Both of the countries which you refer to had leaders that changed fundamental aspects of Marx's ideas and formed their own respective philosophies through the interpretation of Marxian ideas. Stalinism and Maoism were each different in their own ways from Marx's idea of a stateless, classless society aside from being completely secular and eradicating private property. They both were stalled in their attempts to attain a true communist society because of their leader's hunger for political power.

Sean88gt

01-01-2009, 02:12 PM

I'm not defending anyone, dude. Look at what I'm saying. Why are you so ignorant?

Wrong. You clearly are. Your willingness to attack Israel for defending themselves while running to the defense of the Palestinians shows your desire to defend terrorists.

Sean88gt

01-01-2009, 02:16 PM

Sorry buddy, as much as you'd like to think you do, YOU DO NOT KNOW ME. Stop trying to act like it.

It's obvious you've moved to talking childish shit about me, like you guys always do, because you can't keep up with my arguments. Same old story.

Why can't you people stop talking about me? Did you even read my posts?

Refute my arguments, or GTFO, this is not about me, it's about what I'm saying. Why can't you just refute my arguments without referring to the fact that my family owns a chain of restaurants? Has absolutely nothing to do with the palestinian/israeli conflict.

Get the fuck back on topic. This is no place for advertising my personal life. You guys know that, but don't have the tact enough to out and out refute my arguments with logical responses, instead act like fucking children and start attacking me.

:kabong:

Refute your arguments like you refute others? Give me a break. You argue your points until you're blue in the face without ever addressing questions thrown to you. I may not know you directly, but I know your type.

In regards to your 'arguments', trying to refute illogical arguments with rational points only leads to head butting. You are a kid that has no real life experience (if you do, go ahead and refute it below), are convinced you are brilliant, and all it does is make you come off like a spoiled little shit that has no real world knowledge.

mikeb

01-01-2009, 02:22 PM

Refute your arguments like you refute others? Give me a break. You argue your points until you're blue in the face without ever addressing questions thrown to you. I may not know you directly, but I know your type.

In regards to your 'arguments', trying to refute illogical arguments with rational points only leads to head butting. You are a kid that has no real life experience (if you do, go ahead and refute it below), are convinced you are brilliant, and all it does is make you come off like a spoiled little shit that has no real world knowledge.

You're learning, sean. You can't have an intelligent discussion with zara because when you try to pin him down on something he comes back with more questions instead of answering those that you have asked of him. Its a classic technique used by liberals when they want to shout someone down/wear them down.

5.0 svo

01-01-2009, 02:27 PM

mikeb

01-01-2009, 02:31 PM

sc281_99-0135

01-01-2009, 02:32 PM

Sean88gt

01-01-2009, 02:34 PM

Okay, Zarathustra says the reason the Palestinians are lobbing missiles over at Israel is because israel is treating them like animals. If that is true then they have a real reason to be angry with Israel. Would you not agree?
So instead of attacking him personally, disprove what he is saying.

1) They are animals.
2) Israel has been defending itself against unwarranted attacks for over 1/2 century (an persecution for thousands of years)
3) Arabs don't understand what it means to exercise diplomacy or coexist (This has been going on for centuries)
4) Zara is a dripping cunt surrounded with double herpes that refuses to answer questions posed to him and only throws out more questions. It's like a Vulcan mind meld that liberals use and often fails.
5) He makes tacos.
6) He must have made your taco with double meat, nuthugger.

sc281_99-0135

01-01-2009, 02:35 PM

He is the expert, he made the claim not me, so let him prove it.

It's a common tactic with liberals. They'll throw a claim out about something, and then say "prove it's wrong.

one such instance is "GLOBAL WARMNG"

now that we have some of the coldest temperatures on record, they change the argument to "CLIMATE CHANGE"

dumb mother fuckers.

5.0 svo

01-01-2009, 03:07 PM

1) They are animals.
2) Israel has been defending itself against unwarranted attacks for over 1/2 century (an persecution for thousands of years)
3) Arabs don't understand what it means to exercise diplomacy or coexist (This has been going on for centuries)
4) Zara is a dripping cunt surrounded with double herpes that refuses to answer questions posed to him and only throws out more questions. It's like a Vulcan mind meld that liberals use and often fails.
5) He makes tacos.
6) He must have made your taco with double meat, nuthugger.

I agree with you about the Arabs. They are the dumbest of all the religions. They are the cancer of our society. But, I think you guys are missing the point. And Zara correct me if I am wrong. I think the point is that religion in general is the cause of all this shit. Its not just one sided.
I think I need to start a new thread.

Mr Majestyk

01-01-2009, 04:36 PM

I agree with you about the Arabs. They are the dumbest of all the religions. They are the cancer of our society. But, I think you guys are missing the point. And Zara correct me if I am wrong. I think the point is that religion in general is the cause of all this shit. Its not just one sided.
I think I need to start a new thread.

Arab is not a religion, nor are Arabs the cancer of our society. Religion is not the cause of this, terrorism is. Terrorism enables a nobody, a have-not, to achieve equality in their own mind with those who are blessed with prosperity.

Palestinian=have-not, just like FudgePecker=cunt.

5.0 svo

01-01-2009, 05:17 PM

Arab is not a religion, nor are Arabs the cancer of our society. Religion is not the cause of this, terrorism is. Terrorism enables a nobody, a have-not, to achieve equality in their own mind with those who are blessed with prosperity.

Palestinian=have-not, just like FudgePecker=cunt.

So your saying that their religion has nothing to do with the terrorism? Come on dude. These fucktards blow them self up in the name of Allah. They kill them selvs and take others out with them. Sounds like a cancer to me. They try to kill us because we dont have the same religion as them. Thats called terrorism.
Religion is the biggest waste of life. People spend their life trying to study it, and serve God so they can get into heaven. Heaven is a place where you will be rewarded for what? Rewarded not for the life that you led, how good you were but whether or not you admit to Jesus Christ being your lord and savior. I hope god really isnt that selfish. I just killed and raped 10 people Oh lord please forgive me. I forgive you my child. Sweet now I can go to heaven!
Not to say I dont beleive in God but have you ever considered that maybe if there is a god he really dont give a fuck about us?
If you want to waste your whole life in the name of David Koresh, Jesus Christ or Allah I dont really give a fuck. But keep it to yourself and dont teach it to your children, let them find god on there own. Take away our fictional history and where is god now!

Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~

01-01-2009, 05:30 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090101/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Looks like they got one of the Hamas top decision makers! I wonder if he wishes he wouldnt have shot rockets over there now? Probably so....:o

Mr Majestyk

01-01-2009, 07:37 PM

Shaithis

01-01-2009, 07:40 PM

Okay, Zarathustra says the reason the Palestinians are lobbing missiles over at Israel is because israel is treating them like animals. If that is true then they have a real reason to be angry with Israel. Would you not agree?
So instead of attacking him personally, disprove what he is saying.

One thing here, Israel gave up, and move out of the west bank last year. They released occupied territory for the palestinians even tho they were still launching rockets into the israeli state. Israel didn't have to give them shit, but instead turned the other cheek and gave them the chance to make things right. What did the palestinians do? They shot more rockets and took a few military personnel hostage.

mikeb

01-01-2009, 08:41 PM

One thing here, Israel gave up, and move out of the west bank last year. They released occupied territory for the palestinians even tho they were still launching rockets into the israeli state. Israel didn't have to give them shit, but instead turned the other cheek and gave them the chance to make things right. What did the palestinians do? They shot more rockets and took a few military personnel hostage.

Also, it appears that the palestinians would starve to death if it wasn't for israel, judging by the amount of aid they receive from israel, and the number of palestinians crossing into israel to work.

And don't forget, israel basically agreed to the palestinian demands, giving arafat everything he asked for, and arafat still turned them down. He'd rather fight.

Denny

01-01-2009, 09:54 PM

So your saying that their religion has nothing to do with the terrorism? Come on dude. These fucktards blow them self up in the name of Allah. They kill them selvs and take others out with them. Sounds like a cancer to me. They try to kill us because we dont have the same religion as them. Thats called terrorism.
Religion is the biggest waste of life. People spend their life trying to study it, and serve God so they can get into heaven. Heaven is a place where you will be rewarded for what? Rewarded not for the life that you led, how good you were but whether or not you admit to Jesus Christ being your lord and savior. I hope god really isnt that selfish. I just killed and raped 10 people Oh lord please forgive me. I forgive you my child. Sweet now I can go to heaven!
Not to say I dont beleive in God but have you ever considered that maybe if there is a god he really dont give a fuck about us?
If you want to waste your whole life in the name of David Koresh, Jesus Christ or Allah I dont really give a fuck. But keep it to yourself and dont teach it to your children, let them find god on there own. Take away our fictional history and where is god now!
Way to only look at onoe aspect of "religion."

Religion, as a whole, has done more for this world as we know it than any government. Where do you think morals, laws and values originalted? If not for consequesnces from a higher authority, do you think we'd have even this much decency? I can only speak for myself on this, but my personal relationship with God is to fear, love and trust Him. That level of respect isn't determined by any governing law or threats from anyone else.

Granted, there have been some dark days of religion, like the Crusades, the Inquisition, various other "cleansings," and what we're witnessing in the Islamic world today. You also need to open your eyes further than what CNN allows you to see. These people are filled with nothing but hate, plain and simple. If they didn't have "religion" as an excuse, then they'd find another reason to harm others.

As for me, I have problem with most organized religions too, but for other reasons. Speaking in terms of having a personal relationship with God, religion doesn't do much good.

Now back to addressing Israel/Hamas... why is it that you and Zara keep pouncing on his thought that Israel is viewed as a threat when it was answered that Israel has done nothing but retaliate. Hamas was the one who lobbed in rockets and mortars unsolicited. Again with the selective reading...

Name one time where Israel took an offensive against anyone without being provoked.

Denny

01-01-2009, 10:00 PM

Heaven is a place where you will be rewarded for what? Rewarded not for the life that you led, how good you were but whether or not you admit to Jesus Christ being your lord and savior. I hope god really isnt that selfish. I just killed and raped 10 people Oh lord please forgive me. I forgive you my child. Sweet now I can go to heaven!
Not to say I dont beleive in God but have you ever considered that maybe if there is a god he really dont give a fuck about us?

I wanted to address this serparately.

There is a difference between commiting a sin, being truely sorry for that sin, asking for forgiveness, then trying to lead a life that Christ demonstrated to us. Then there is committing a sin, just because you think you have a get out of jail free card and can ask God for forgiveness and start on a clean slate, only to do it again. Committing a sin with the thought to justify it with God's forgiveness is NOT being truely sorry and is there really any repentance?

black01gt

01-01-2009, 11:38 PM

Religion is the biggest waste of life. People spend their life trying to study it, and serve God so they can get into heaven.
You don't have to study Christianity or any other religion to know right from wrong.

Town where I grew up there was a guy named Clark Pierce who was a ruthless mofo. He would as soon knock an 80 yr old lady in the head as you. Fortunately he went to the pen just short of murder. While there he discovered and became a true christian (there were enough hypocrites in the town to easily spot the difference) and even changed his name to Clark Christ. He was still nuts but a very gentle and compassionate person when he got out even tho you knew he could rip your head off if he wanted to. Now you tell me, which Clark would you rather meet in a dark ally?

5.0 svo

01-02-2009, 12:08 AM

I wanted to address this serparately.

There is a difference between commiting a sin, being truely sorry for that sin, asking for forgiveness, then trying to lead a life that Christ demonstrated to us. Then there is committing a sin, just because you think you have a get out of jail free card and can ask God for forgiveness and start on a clean slate, only to do it again. Committing a sin with the thought to justify it with God's forgiveness is NOT being truely sorry and is there really any repentance?

Ofcourse you have to be truly sorry. If your about to spend eternity in hell who wouldnt be truly sorry. The only reason they say all you have to do is be sorry and god will forgive you is so no one thinks it is ever too late. I mean if I sinned and I didnt think god would forgive me, what would keep me from committing more sin? Its all propaganda. Just because you are sorry you sinned does not mean you will never do it again. So what does being sorry really do? Your still the bad person that made the decision to sin. And when you go to heaven, what happens when you sin while your there? Does he kick you out? Or do you just have to ask for forgiveness before you die. Oh wait you cant, your already dead.
You people need to step into reality.

Denny

01-02-2009, 02:28 AM

Ofcourse you have to be truly sorry. If your about to spend eternity in hell who wouldnt be truly sorry. The only reason they say all you have to do is be sorry and god will forgive you is so no one thinks it is ever too late. I mean if I sinned and I didnt think god would forgive me, what would keep me from committing more sin? Its all propaganda. Just because you are sorry you sinned does not mean you will never do it again. So what does being sorry really do? Your still the bad person that made the decision to sin. And when you go to heaven, what happens when you sin while your there? Does he kick you out? Or do you just have to ask for forgiveness before you die. Oh wait you cant, your already dead.
You people need to step into reality.

You are not understanding. The example you proposed is someone being sorry they got caught. Sorry that he/she is facing punishment. That's not being sorry because they disobeyed God or did not do what is right. There is a difference. People can be fooled, but God can read your heart and true intentions.

Ask for forgiveness is not a get out of jail free card. Forgiveness is a gift that is given to those who believe and are truly sorry for their sins, not sorry because they're fate lies in hell. I know for a fact that I'm going to Heaven and that I am forgiven, yet I am sorry for the sins I commit and still try to live, to the best of my ability, the way God wants me to live. I also do what I can to make sure God's Will is done on earth.

Bubbaearl

01-02-2009, 08:19 AM

going into combat does wonders for a mans belief in god . aint no atheist in fox holes as my pop use to say. i can not imagine going through life believing in nothing. that's just sad .

AL P

01-02-2009, 09:44 AM

And don't forget, israel basically agreed to the palestinian demands, giving arafat everything he asked for, and arafat still turned them down. He'd rather fight.

Happens all the time. Just like the current fight, there was a truce then the idiots start launching their rockets into Israel. To some people that visit this board they are justified though because the rockets only kill "zionists". I've never seen a 4 year old zionist myself but hey lets not start with that logic bullshit.

I've said it a hundred times on here. The fact of the matter is that the Palestinians murder women and children over "land" all the time without remorse and without restraint. Their claims may be relevent but their atrocities trump every legitimate claim they may make. They elected Hamas to lead them in a general election. And until they stop their bullshit the Jews have a blank check to bomb the fuck out of them, in my opinion.

5.0 svo

01-02-2009, 10:31 AM

You don't have to study Christianity or any other religion to know right from wrong.

Town where I grew up there was a guy named Clark Pierce who was a ruthless mofo. He would as soon knock an 80 yr old lady in the head as you. Fortunately he went to the pen just short of murder. While there he discovered and became a true christian (there were enough hypocrites in the town to easily spot the difference) and even changed his name to Clark Christ. He was still nuts but a very gentle and compassionate person when he got out even tho you knew he could rip your head off if he wanted to. Now you tell me, which Clark would you rather meet in a dark ally?

Wow he sounds like a real genius. Prolly didnt take much brain washing to convert him. Clark Christ,? hahahaha does he think he is Jesus brother?
I know in prison it is real easy to fall into the bad crowd like that. I myself studied the bible while I was in there. I even studied it with a guy named Roger Halderman. He is David Koreshs brother. We watched his brother die on TV together.
After reading the bible, I have to admit it is the biggest pile of propaganda bullshit I have ever seen. How much more confusing could you possibly be. 10 people can study it there whole lives and each one of them will translate it differently. Thats supposed to be your guide? Thats prolly why catholics dont even read the bible. To many people would disagree.

5.0 svo

01-02-2009, 10:39 AM

You are not understanding. The example you proposed is someone being sorry they got caught. Sorry that he/she is facing punishment. That's not being sorry because they disobeyed God or did not do what is right. There is a difference. People can be fooled, but God can read your heart and true intentions.

Ask for forgiveness is not a get out of jail free card. Forgiveness is a gift that is given to those who believe and are truly sorry for their sins, not sorry because they're fate lies in hell. I know for a fact that I'm going to Heaven and that I am forgiven, yet I am sorry for the sins I commit and still try to live, to the best of my ability, the way God wants me to live. I also do what I can to make sure God's Will is done on earth.

The way god wants you to live? Is that coming from the bible? hahahaha

Zarathustra

01-02-2009, 11:21 AM

going into combat does wonders for a mans belief in god . aint no atheist in fox holes as my pop use to say. i can not imagine going through life believing in nothing. that's just sad .

Classic.

Exactly, you wouldn't find someone smart enough to know that there is no 'God' putting his life in danger for absolutely nothing but to kill another human being. I guess faith is the only think they have left, what a sad state of affairs.

I believe in many lots of things, just not false idols and supernatural beings.

Religion is nothing but hate and human suffering wrapped up into a nice little package that some people just can't turn away from. It's a buffet of lies that I'll have none of, but hey, more for you guys...

Zarathustra

01-02-2009, 11:25 AM

Happens all the time. Just like the current fight, there was a truce then the idiots start launching their rockets into Israel. To some people that visit this board they are justified though because the rockets only kill "zionists". I've never seen a 4 year old zionist myself but hey lets not start with that logic bullshit.

I've said it a hundred times on here. The fact of the matter is that the Palestinians murder women and children over "land" all the time without remorse and without restraint. Their claims may be relevent but their atrocities trump every legitimate claim they may make. They elected Hamas to lead them in a general election. And until they stop their bullshit the Jews have a blank check to bomb the fuck out of them, in my opinion.

What about Israel stopping their bullshit?

A truce only lasts until one side starts to see their people dying of malnutrition and lack of medical supplies. Nobody is justifying rocket attacks, nor Hamas and its asshole tactics.

Israel has never killed women and children over land, right?

AL P

01-02-2009, 11:27 AM

Exactly, you wouldn't find someone smart enough to know that there is no 'God' putting his life in danger for absolutely nothing but to kill another human being. I guess faith is the only think they have left, what a sad state of affairs.

A wonderful way to think of things until you realize that not all people "in foxholes" have the luxury of making that choice.

AL P

01-02-2009, 11:29 AM

What about Israel stopping their bullshit?

A truce only lasts until one side starts to see their people dying of malnutrition and lack of medical supplies. Nobody is justifying rocket attacks, nor Hamas and its asshole tactics.

Israel has never killed women and children over land, right?

If you aren't trying to justify then stop trying to justify them.

Zarathustra

01-02-2009, 11:32 AM

People can be fooled, but God can read your heart and true intentions.

That's just insane. You can't really believe God reads your thoughts.

Ask for forgiveness is not a get out of jail free card.
Yes it is, what religion do you belong to, again? You change and mold christianity to satisfy your own interests more than anyone I know. That's the problem.

I'm a pious dude, probably more so than yourself. I understand the abstract, universal concept of a god is exploited to fit everyone's subjective interpretation of the idea. And therein lies the problem, so scrap it all together and let's find a new more appreciative way of looking at life.

Zarathustra

01-02-2009, 11:34 AM

If you aren't trying to justify then stop trying to justify them.

Where again have I justified rocket attacks by Hamas militants?

AL P

01-02-2009, 11:42 AM

Where again have I justified rocket attacks by Hamas militants?

The tit for tat of "Well, Israel does X or Y". Completely irrelevent. The humanitarian situation would improve if the Hamas idiots weren't in charge. It's not like Israel is bombing the shit out of Fatah right now.

mikeb

01-02-2009, 11:53 AM

You are not understanding. The example you proposed is someone being sorry they got caught. Sorry that he/she is facing punishment. That's not being sorry because they disobeyed God or did not do what is right. There is a difference. People can be fooled, but God can read your heart and true intentions.

Ask for forgiveness is not a get out of jail free card. Forgiveness is a gift that is given to those who believe and are truly sorry for their sins, not sorry because they're fate lies in hell. I know for a fact that I'm going to Heaven and that I am forgiven, yet I am sorry for the sins I commit and still try to live, to the best of my ability, the way God wants me to live. I also do what I can to make sure God's Will is done on earth.

Exactly, forgiveness does not = get out of jail card. Look at carla faye tucker. Axe murderer until she got religion in jail. Turned her life around, but still got the needle. There is still penalty for sin even though if you truly repent (turn away) from sin you are forgiven.

black01gt

01-02-2009, 11:56 AM

I know in prison it is real easy to fall into the bad crowd like that. I myself studied the bible while I was in there. I even studied it with a guy named Roger Halderman. He is David Koreshs brother. We watched his brother die on TV together.

Bullshit. You can stop trying to explain how you're not gullible now.

Zarathustra

01-02-2009, 12:18 PM

I think we're getting too deep into the religious question, you guys are getting lost in a world most of us do not know anything about.

Let's talk about why Israel (neocon zionist hate/fear-mongers) must operate an apartheid state to legitimate its very existence. They push Gazans into unreasonably small spaces with cramped borders, blockading the areas of it and other places where Hamas is more strongly concentrated, paying no mind to how many civilians are living int he same places. These people (civilians) are literally starved to death and live under the shittiest conditions. If that is not oppression, I don't know what is. Israeli policy only exacerbates the problem, leading to social unrest and 'terrorism' that you guys site as the reason for even more death and destruction. Can't you guys see that the end goal of Israel is to kill or wound as many Palestinians as it takes to pacify or eradicate them altogether?

Through all means necessary, the Zionist government in Israel with help from US and probably other nations, has constructed a very effective propaganda machine against the Palestinians, aimed at misleading the public opinion into justifying what they really want to do in the first place, kill their opposers. It doesn't stop there, they've tried to lump Iran into this equation by blindly accusing Iranians of 'supporting and training' Hamas militants. Classic propaganda technique, along with the thought of preventing a "nuclear Iran". That sounds just too familiar....

This is the hugest attempt to doop even more of you blind followers into allegiance through coercion and misinformation to garner support for another war in Iran.

All that needs to be done is a little research to the real truth behind things, I mean after all, why just swallow the lies and propaganda as truth? Don't you people possess the desire to know what's really going on?

Zarathustra

01-02-2009, 12:55 PM

Oh the rockets are so bad, they're killing so many innocent Jews, look at this, World!

What is it about glorified bottle rockets that makes it okay to kill thousands of innocent people?

Zionists are not Jews. They are people who want to kill every single Palestinian who objects to Israel being completely Israel and nothing else. There is no Palestine, but for what reason? Truth is genocide, ethnic cleansing, mass murder, what ever you want to call it is happening here, and it is being justified by a cleverly constructed propaganda machine.

I will not buy it.

Fact is, Israel is equipped with some of the most state-of-the-art mass murder technology and they're creating false justifications for using it on the Palestinians through the lies they tell you on Television. The palestinian people are denied everything we all take for granted. They (israel) blockades their every necessary supply,(food, medicine, water) and literally force the only people in Palestinian territories who will stand up and do something about it to make their voices heard. They are not Hamas, this is just a nickname to unite and belittle their cause. Classic propaganda technique. Most of them probably do not even belong to the organization that calls itself Hamas. They are just people who are fed up with not having enough work or food to feed their families, and they've watched their kids die as a result of malnourishment. The rock-throwers are just hungry, oppressed, downtrodden members of society that have no other avenue except to fight back for what they think they deserve--normal people who have been stomped and dragged far enough. They are not terrorists, just normal people with a desire for equal rights and privileges, but are continually denied, but for what reason?

By the way, Hamas is known for creating alot of good things for the people that are forced to live in horrible conditions. Perhaps this is why they have garnered so much support from the people who see their own destruction as the end goal of the Israeli government.

Why can't Israel share its wealth with Palestine? Why are palestinians looked at as the enemy here? Why is the US vs Them dichotomy being employed so strongly? What the fuck does Iran really have to do with this? Let us not forget that they were a democracy prior to American interference.

And blownragtop, the democracy/theocracy dichotomy you displayed as the problem here is absolutely bullshit. It's so naive and misunderstood. Iran represented the largest democracy in the middle east, until their democratically elected leader was ousted in a coup perpetrated by the CIA. The middle east has been a hotbed of evil since that day in 1953. Perhaps this event catalyzed most of what today we call Islamic extremism. Spreading democracy is the guise under which most of the evil destructive acts in our lifetimes have been committed and these corrupt practice will not stop until people open their eyes wide enough to see that what they tell you is not the truth, but a series of lies constructed to shape our way of thinking. Sure, these people live in an archaic society, but hey, let 'em. Has nothing to do with democracy or theocracy. Religion is the base of all these lies, social control as it's best. If you had the sense of a billy goat, you'd know that. Just keep eating all that bullshit, I'll take mine in the form of searching for the truth, not merely settling for what other people tell me is true.

5.0 svo

01-02-2009, 01:27 PM

Bullshit. You can stop trying to explain how you're not gullible now.

I was just curious as to how anyone could fall for something like that. I wanted to see what he was teaching. You have obviously fallen for the same thing, just a different political rebel.

AL P

01-02-2009, 01:33 PM

Sean88gt

01-02-2009, 02:59 PM

AL P

01-02-2009, 03:10 PM

Yes, its all lies! The Jews are the ones killing everyone with their "mass murder" techniques. I can't figure out why they keep waiting for the Palestinians to fire rockets though? I mean if they want to wipe them out then you'd think they would just do it and get it over with. Why aren't they attacking Fatah too?

I know!! It's all part of the zionist plot to make it all look kosher (pun intended).

Look at the poor guys in this film clip, its a great example. They got dressed up all in black clothes with combat boots to go collect for the local crippled childrens home and look at what the Jews did to them:

<object width="450" height="370"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/1f9_1230850386"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/1f9_1230850386" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="450" height="370"></embed></object>

I hope they enjoy their virgins because their last seconds on earth being turned into dog food couldn't have been all that pleasant.

jluv

01-02-2009, 03:14 PM

Classic.

Exactly, you wouldn't find someone smart enough to know that there is no 'God' putting his life in danger for absolutely nothing but to kill another human being. I guess faith is the only think they have left, what a sad state of affairs.

I believe in many lots of things, just not false idols and supernatural beings.

Religion is nothing but hate and human suffering wrapped up into a nice little package that some people just can't turn away from. It's a buffet of lies that I'll have none of, but hey, more for you guys...

Interesting post.

Zarathustra

01-02-2009, 03:15 PM

You sure seem to try real hard for someone who is not justifying something. Seems pretty obvious to me the position you are taking.

As I said, they aren't hammering the fuck out of Fatah, I wonder why that is? I'm not crazy enough to think that everyone belongs to Hamas but at the end of the day I can do the basic math and realize that Hamas aggravates the situation every chance they get and then cries about how bad the people are treated. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the connection between aggressive behavior and retaliation.

I think you're missing my point, but thanks for being cordial.

They're fed up! What do you expect? Sure they aggravate the situation, that's about all they can do. Hamas more strongly represents the collective opinion of the people, as is shown in the increase in representation in government they have been able to garner. Fatah does not represent the pragmatism and collective opinion of the people that is needed to accomplish the satisfaction of both sides of the bargaining coin. I do not justify their brutal tactics, but given the circumstances, any normal human being would be forced to do something about it. The terrorist tag and the us vs them dichotomy given in the news reports justifies mass murder, ethnic cleansing, genocide. Judaism does not tolerate this apartheid, most real hassidic jews despise their government for committing murder on a wide scale.

Why does the media not report on the oppression and pacification, degradation and humanitarian crises that exist in Palestinian territories? Children grow up without proper education, nutrition, clean drinking water, and a quiet place to rest their head. Hamas does everything they can to make this situation better, bulding schools, hospitals, infrastructure, while the Israeli government does everything in their power to make their lives harder to live and more difficult to maintain. The truth is right there for us to see it, I don't see why it's so hard for some to grasp.

Not only does the Israeli government deny and blockade them everything they need to sustain a healthy life, but they also drop bombs on beach-goers!!

And for the earlier request of citing at least one time IDF went on the offensive, attacking Gazans without provocation here you go, straight out of history, straight out of the Hamas page on wiki:

"The events leading to the 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict began on 9 June 2006. During an Israeli artillery operation, an explosion occurred on a busy Gaza beach, killing eight Palestinian civilians.[46][47] It was initially assumed that Israeli shellings were responsible for the killings, although Israeli government officials later denied this. Hamas formally withdrew from its 16-month ceasefire on June 10, taking responsibility for the subsequent Qassam rocket attacks launched from Gaza into Israel.[48]"

Seems like they'll just use any excuse to justify playing the victim, even retaliation for retaliation.

Zarathustra

01-02-2009, 03:18 PM

1) They are animals.
2) Israel has been defending itself against unwarranted attacks for over 1/2 century (an persecution for thousands of years)
3) Arabs don't understand what it means to exercise diplomacy or coexist (This has been going on for centuries)
4) Zara is a dripping cunt surrounded with double herpes that refuses to answer questions posed to him and only throws out more questions. It's like a Vulcan mind meld that liberals use and often fails.
5) He makes tacos.
6) He must have made your taco with double meat, nuthugger.

1) We're all animals
2) Palestinians have been doing the same
3) They've never been given the chance.
4) Are you serious? Ignorance washes over you. It's called logic, and the truth. Sorry that's so hard for you to understand
5) My tacos are delicious.
6) Extra meat is 49 cents.

:squintfinger:

AL P

01-02-2009, 03:18 PM

Look at these people, they've been starved. Emaciated!

<object width="450" height="370"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/1d7_1217879965"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/1d7_1217879965" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="450" height="370"></embed></object>

AL P

01-02-2009, 03:25 PM

Look! It's the Israeli mass murder machine caught in the act...

"Pardon me sir, in five minutes we are going to bomb your house"

Those filthy Jews sure do have good manners when it comes to a mass murder campaign...

<object width="450" height="370"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/3a4_1204807029"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/3a4_1204807029" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="450" height="370"></embed></object>

VETTKLR

01-02-2009, 03:29 PM

Holy shit Adolf, relax! I think I heard this speech once before, circa 1933:shocked:

It's funny that you bring that up...

Zarathustra was a Persian philosopher, whose teachings were organized into the world's first monotheistic religion. Zoroastrianism was used as a basis for the big three religions that came afterward, as they all share many ideals with the one that came before all of them...

...But the reason i changed my name to zarathustra is because I am persian. Just like Zoroaster, or zarathustra. After all, I do have a shoulder-to-shoulder chestpiece tattoo depicting the faravahar (symbol of persian empire and later the symbol for zoroastrianism--winged disk-half man half bird)...

faravhar:
http://www.success.co.il/knowledge/images/Supernatural-Zoroastrianism-Faravahar.jpg

and then there's
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6881/eagle885wu.jpg

Am I the only one that thinks this thread wreaks of irony???:dunno:

Sean88gt

01-02-2009, 03:32 PM

1) We're all animals
2) Palestinians have been doing the same
3) They've never been given the chance.
4) Are you serious? Ignorance washes over you. It's called logic, and the truth. Sorry that's so hard for you to understand
5) My tacos are delicious.
6) Extra meat is 49 cents.

:squintfinger:

1) I'll give you that, some of us are just more savage than others.
2) Right, but they throw the first defenseless stone.
3) BULLSHIT. They have never wanted the chance and when it has been given they ignored it and would rather fight about it.
4)Continually posing questions is called logic? Since when? Questions are asked and answers are given to provide logic and truth. If I'm ignorant, you are brainwashed and without individual though.
5) This is up for debate since you've never posted a name or address of your company.
6) That's not bad!

AL P

01-02-2009, 03:37 PM

The good old "Land of the Aryans". Since 1935. I wonder why the name would have changed in 1935?

564826

01-02-2009, 03:54 PM

God asked Cain, the slayer, "Where is Abel thy brother?" And he said, "I know not. Am I my brother's keeper?" And the Lord said, "What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed..." (Genesis 4:9-11).

Shaithis

01-02-2009, 04:24 PM

I think you're missing my point, but thanks for being cordial. blah blah blah.

.

Riddle me this. Israel occupied the west bank, then recently gave it up and back to the palestinians. Israel made sure to move ANY AND ALL settlers out. What happened? The palestinians decide to shoot rockets into Israel. How is this right? If the palestinians were sooooo hungry and abused, how come they don't go to the UN for food? Why do you see so many well clothed palestinians running around throwing rocks, using slingshots, and making rockets to shoot into israel? If you had some say, how would YOU solve this issue?

Denny

01-02-2009, 11:44 PM

black01gt

01-03-2009, 02:39 AM

Lastly, do you really have that ridiculous tattoo?
No shit. :bling:

Mr Majestyk

01-03-2009, 12:43 PM

ALLAN

01-03-2009, 01:07 PM

The Izzies have moved into Gaza.
Game on!:popcorn:

5.0 svo

01-03-2009, 01:21 PM

1) I'll give you that, some of us are just more savage than others.
2) Right, but they throw the first defenseless stone.
3) BULLSHIT. They have never wanted the chance and when it has been given they ignored it and would rather fight about it.
4)Continually posing questions is called logic? Since when? Questions are asked and answers are given to provide logic and truth. If I'm ignorant, you are brainwashed and without individual though.
5) This is up for debate since you've never posted a name or address of your company.
6) That's not bad!

So you guys are saying they are throwing stones for no reason? They are just trying to start a war for the sake of it? That is highly unlikely. Israel is/has done something to them to provoke this. I am not saying Israel is in the wrong but I fail to see the logic.
If Israel is swatting flies, there is a maggot infested decaying body somewhere.

5.0 svo

01-03-2009, 01:27 PM

5.0 svo

01-03-2009, 01:42 PM

Look at these people, they've been starved. Emaciated!

I bet if if your Starbucks got closed down you would be ready to fight.

The Hamas are Iranian influenced to make Israel attack Gaza. Inturn making the whole Muslim community hate Israel. Why else would anyone throw rocks at a giant and run away. They want them to attack. Thats obvious.

Zarathustra

01-03-2009, 02:35 PM

Man, if it wasn't for DFWStangs, I'd be a mess, stuck out in the desert! One of the funniest things a man of strong belief can experience is to have a Taco Technician tell him how his beliefs are wrong and that there is no God.

Zara, you sound more afraid of a higher diety, rather than not believe it. I just can't figure out why you want to pull others away from their beliefs. Such passion and effort could be used elsewhere for better things. You are completely biased on the Israeli vs. anyone issues. You STILL have yet to comment on things like Hamas' unsolisited attacks, Iranians volunteering to be suicide bombers against Israel, etc. Until you address more than Israel's retaliation as being unjust, you will hold the label as biased on here or anywhere.

Lastly, do you really have that ridiculous tattoo?

You're biased too, just the opposite way. And you're so blinded by religion that you can't see that. Believing in something that just isn't there is detrimental to the human condition, as is being displayed for us on an international stage. I have made many arguments involving the things you speak of, you jsut have to read and comprehend what I have typed in order to more clearly understand where I'm coming from. I speak of facts, bringing to light the truth behind the smoke and mirrors that these people make the public believe. Perhaps some reading could help you out..

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-truth-about-those-hamas-rockets.html

There is no doubt I have a deep appreciation for spirituality and piety, but not of the kind that moves people to violence and destruction of people who do not believe as they. Perhaps this comes from my ancient roots in a people that did not proselytize those that they conquered. Perhaps..

And yes, I do have that tattoo, in full color, on me for the rest of my life, although my art looks a hundred times better than that depiction. You should do some research on what it means. In fact, no, I'll do it for you, here's all you need to know..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faravahar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

I do not adhere to many of the doctrines of the Zoroastrian faith, but I sense its significance and respect the initiative it created. It was, in fact, the first monotheistic religion, despite what you have been told.

I don't know what God is, but I know what it isn't. And it definitely is not the contemporary idea that so many weak and discarded humans adhere to so dearly. God does not lead people to kill one another, at least my god doesn't. I'm nor bringing down your beliefs, I'm condemning them altogether because Islam and Judeo-Christianity are basically the same thing, they just do things a little differently. Both are equally culpable for the evils of this world, and they're both equally detrimental to the human psyche. We must rise above, it's a shame you're stuck in the mindset that ruins people's lives, brings our planet many unnecessary evils, and whose logical conclusions destroy reasonable thoughts, words, and deeds. You claim to operate on a higher plane than those who follow the Islamic faith, when in reality you're just as evil as they are, and what's worse, you can't even see it. That's why it's dangerous, that's why we should not follow that line of reasoning, because it only ends destructively.

Zarathustra

01-03-2009, 02:41 PM

Still waiting, 'Pecker for your explanation of what Jesus has to do with the Nation of Israel.

I really wish you'd leave me alone, you never have anything interesting to add, just petty childish insults. How old are you?

If you don't know what Jesus has to do with Israel, then you should not be commenting on the topic, or rather be a part of this discussion at all. Go read a history book and gather some facts and opinions and then come back and be a man and talk like one. Until then, get lost, kiddo.

You should have been banned a LONG time ago.

Zarathustra

01-03-2009, 02:44 PM

No shit. :bling:

Dude, uh, my tat will put anything you have to shame. Trust me.

Zarathustra

01-03-2009, 02:51 PM

Riddle me this. Israel occupied the west bank, then recently gave it up and back to the palestinians. Israel made sure to move ANY AND ALL settlers out. What happened? The palestinians decide to shoot rockets into Israel. How is this right? If the palestinians were sooooo hungry and abused, how come they don't go to the UN for food? Why do you see so many well clothed palestinians running around throwing rocks, using slingshots, and making rockets to shoot into israel? If you had some say, how would YOU solve this issue?

I would make Israel an open areligious state where Palestinians, Arabs, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Suffis, Zoroastrians, WHOEVER wants to go there can live a happy healthy life. One nation, with liberty and justice for all. If you take religion out of the equation, it's just a strip of land in the desert with a beautiful mediterranean coastline. No doubt this would take time, but implementing a borderless state where everyone can live in without conflict over territory or borders or, more importantly--resources seems to be the first step. Screw a two state solution, screw the Israeli government making life for the Palestinian people hell on earth, screw an Islamic state. That's what I would do.

And yourself?

Shaithis

01-03-2009, 06:50 PM

I would make Israel an open areligious state where Palestinians, Arabs, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Suffis, Zoroastrians, WHOEVER wants to go there can live a happy healthy life. One nation, with liberty and justice for all. If you take religion out of the equation, it's just a strip of land in the desert with a beautiful mediterranean coastline. No doubt this would take time, but implementing a borderless state where everyone can live in without conflict over territory or borders or, more importantly--resources seems to be the first step. Screw a two state solution, screw the Israeli government making life for the Palestinian people hell on earth, screw an Islamic state. That's what I would do.

And yourself?

Sounds like the garden of eden to me, but we all know that wouldn't be. :( Hardliners, like hamas, won't allow it. Fatah, who the palestinians seemed happy with until hamas chased them out by gunpoint, wanted to stop the rockets, sit down, and talk it out. They still do, and Hamas is going as far as saying Fatah will be riding in on israeli tanks. lol

black01gt

01-03-2009, 08:34 PM

Dude, uh, my tat will put anything you have to shame. Trust me.
I think tatoos are best left to ancient African tribes and old sailors. :yawn:

But I'll compare tallywhackers with ya... Trust me.

.

SS Junk

01-03-2009, 08:36 PM

No doubt this would take time, but implementing a borderless state where everyone can live in without conflict over territory or borders or, more importantly--resources seems to be the first step.
You say this like it would happen in this lifetime. Don't be stupid. This conflict has been going on for thousands of years. There will never be a resolve no matter what approach you take.
One nation, with liberty and justice for all
Isn't this the very thing you bitched about regarding US occupying Iraq?

black01gt

01-03-2009, 08:43 PM

Inturn making the whole Muslim community hate Israel.
...oh no. And break up such a beautiful friendship?! :3some:

Mr Majestyk

01-03-2009, 08:47 PM

I really wish you'd leave me alone, you never have anything interesting to add, just petty childish insults. How old are you?

If you don't know what Jesus has to do with Israel, then you should not be commenting on the topic, or rather be a part of this discussion at all. Go read a history book and gather some facts and opinions and then come back and be a man and talk like one. Until then, get lost, kiddo.

You should have been banned a LONG time ago.

Still waiting, typical lack of anything.

And still, fuck you

mikeb

01-03-2009, 08:52 PM

Israel is/has done something to them to provoke this. I am not saying Israel is in the wrong but I fail to see the logic.

Simply existing? Seems to be enough.

I hear claims about israels aggression; some people on this forum have made these claims. Can someone give examples of where israel attacked or did some other evil deed with no provocation from palestine? And if so, lets compare statistics on how palestine is attacking innocent civilians with rockets and suicide bombers while israel is attempting to only target military targets.

Denny

01-03-2009, 09:39 PM

You're biased too, just the opposite way. And you're so blinded by religion that you can't see that. Believing in something that just isn't there is detrimental to the human condition, as is being displayed for us on an international stage. I have made many arguments involving the things you speak of, you jsut have to read and comprehend what I have typed in order to more clearly understand where I'm coming from. I speak of facts, bringing to light the truth behind the smoke and mirrors that these people make the public believe. Perhaps some reading could help you out..

http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-truth-about-those-hamas-rockets.html

There is no doubt I have a deep appreciation for spirituality and piety, but not of the kind that moves people to violence and destruction of people who do not believe as they. Perhaps this comes from my ancient roots in a people that did not proselytize those that they conquered. Perhaps..

And yes, I do have that tattoo, in full color, on me for the rest of my life, although my art looks a hundred times better than that depiction. You should do some research on what it means. In fact, no, I'll do it for you, here's all you need to know..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faravahar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

I do not adhere to many of the doctrines of the Zoroastrian faith, but I sense its significance and respect the initiative it created. It was, in fact, the first monotheistic religion, despite what you have been told.

I don't know what God is, but I know what it isn't. And it definitely is not the contemporary idea that so many weak and discarded humans adhere to so dearly. God does not lead people to kill one another, at least my god doesn't. I'm nor bringing down your beliefs, I'm condemning them altogether because Islam and Judeo-Christianity are basically the same thing, they just do things a little differently. Both are equally culpable for the evils of this world, and they're both equally detrimental to the human psyche. We must rise above, it's a shame you're stuck in the mindset that ruins people's lives, brings our planet many unnecessary evils, and whose logical conclusions destroy reasonable thoughts, words, and deeds. You claim to operate on a higher plane than those who follow the Islamic faith, when in reality you're just as evil as they are, and what's worse, you can't even see it. That's why it's dangerous, that's why we should not follow that line of reasoning, because it only ends destructively.

Of course I'm biased! I know which team is backed by God.;) But, as you can tell, Israel is not in the wrong. This is nothing more than a defensive/retaliation posture. I still don't get where you're coming up with this idea that God is telling the Jews to kill people. They're doing nothing but defending their existance. Nothing Israel has done was ever unprovoked. I'll ask the question AGAIN: When has Israel ever attacked anyone without reason other than defense?

Why should I do some research on what your tattoo means?

Denny

01-03-2009, 09:45 PM

I would make Israel an open areligious state where Palestinians, Arabs, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Suffis, Zoroastrians, WHOEVER wants to go there can live a happy healthy life. One nation, with liberty and justice for all. If you take religion out of the equation, it's just a strip of land in the desert with a beautiful mediterranean coastline. No doubt this would take time, but implementing a borderless state where everyone can live in without conflict over territory or borders or, more importantly--resources seems to be the first step. Screw a two state solution, screw the Israeli government making life for the Palestinian people hell on earth, screw an Islamic state. That's what I would do.

And yourself?

Why? Israel (including Jerusalem) belongs to the Jewish people. Their Temple was destoyed THREE TIMES in Jerusalem and now that "dome on the rock" crap is sitting in it's place. It doesn't belong to the Jews, Christians, Muslims or whoever. That piece of the world was set aside by God. He instructed the Jews to build a Temple to exact specifications in that exact spot. Why couldn't the rest of the world leave it alone? Now that people are fighting over it, just give it to everybody? Uh... no.

People, keep your eyes on Jerusalem. She's going to be the hostess to the main stage since people aren't respecting God's wishes.

mikeb

01-03-2009, 10:01 PM

People, keep your eyes on Jerusalem. She's going to be the hostess to the main stage since people aren't respecting God's wishes.

Denny, they are fighting over it because God claimed it first.

I'm still awaiting the sharing agreement and the construction of the next temple. THEN it gets interesting :eek2:

5.0 svo

01-03-2009, 11:25 PM

That piece of the world was set aside by God. He instructed the Jews to build a Temple to exact specifications in that exact spot.
.

Holy Autocad batman!
Its amazing how god intructs people to build things, buy personal jets and all kinds of other crap but all he would have to do is reveal himself to the world and all would be well.
Tell me, has god ever spoke to you?
One more thing, Does god say you should listen to your parents and mind them, respect them etc? So if you teach your chilren to not beleive in god, how could they possibly ever get into heaven.

Sgt Beavis

01-04-2009, 12:08 AM

So, does anyone else thing Obama's silence on the matter is basically a tacit approval?

Hamas took ran over Fatah as they took over Gaza. I think Israel plans to hand Gaza back over to Fatah after they've cleaned Hamas out (if that is actually possible) While Abbas publicly prays for his Hamas brothers he is most likely preparing for an orderly transfer after Israel does what he simply can't do..

Its really sad that Fatah has so much friggin corruption. Hamas would have never won the elections is Abbas and Arafat had not acted so stupidly with their power. They could have had just about everything they wanted. Even a piece of Jerusalem.

Denny

01-04-2009, 01:04 AM

Holy Autocad batman!
Its amazing how god intructs people to build things, buy personal jets and all kinds of other crap but all he would have to do is reveal himself to the world and all would be well.
Tell me, has god ever spoke to you?
One more thing, Does god say you should listen to your parents and mind them, respect them etc? So if you teach your chilren to not beleive in god, how could they possibly ever get into heaven.

God has already revealed himself to us on several occasions. Since His Son came down, taught us how to live, died for our sins and then rose from the dead; there's no reason for Him to do any more "revealing." The Covenant that was made between God and us was made to accept Him on Faith. By faith, it means to believe in His sacrifice and to accept Jesus as your Savior. Anyone can see and believe, but to believe without seeing is pleasing to Him.

I've never heard God telling anyone to buy a personal jet or anything like that. But if you read the Bible, it tell you when God told the Israelites to build the Temple, where to build it and exactly how it was to be built. Just from reading it, the Temple can be brought back again just like it was then. There's actually a replica of the Temple in Arkansas. I'll find it and show you guys.

blownragtop

01-04-2009, 01:14 AM

Dear Zara,

I just love your scatter shooting style. Like the monkeys at the zoo you fling shit against the wall and see what sticks. And make no mistake; most of what you spew is utter shit. Fabricated, unsubstantiated shit. Your stream of consciousness jibberish reads like a 4th rate Hamas propaganda leaflet. (Do you secretly work for Al Jazeera?) Please try to be a little more succinct. Please try to stay on topic. And please try and use references when making ignorant statements like this: “What the fuck does Iran really have to do with this? Let us not forget that they were a democracy prior to American interference.” (I’ll address this later.)

Zionists are not Jews. They are people who want to kill every single Palestinian who objects to Israel being completely Israel and nothing else. There is no Palestine, but for what reason?

Palestine has no past and was never a sovereign nation. Ever. It’s a myth. Like unicorns and your intelligence.

Here’s a quote from Zuheir Mohsen -Palestinian leader of the Syria-controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) between 1971 and 1979 that will help you understand.

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

Why does the media not report on the oppression and pacification, degradation and humanitarian crises that exist in Palestinian territories? Children grow up without proper education, nutrition, clean drinking water, and a quiet place to rest their head. Hamas does everything they can to make this situation better, bulding schools, hospitals, infrastructure, while the Israeli government does everything in their power to make their lives harder to live and more difficult to maintain. The truth is right there for us to see it, I don't see why it's so hard for some to grasp.

Such crude comparisons aside, to present the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as "systematic oppression" is itself the inverse of the truth. It should be recalled, first of all, that this occupation did not come about as a consequence of some grand expansionist design, but rather was incidental to Israel's success against a pan-Arab attempt to destroy it. Upon the outbreak of Israeli Egyptian hostilities on June 5, 1967, the Israeli government secretly pleaded with King Hussein of Jordan, the de-facto ruler of the West Bank, to forgo any military action; the plea was rebuffed by the Jordanian monarch, who was loathe to lose the anticipated spoils of what was to be the Arabs' "final round" with Israel.

Thus it happened that, at the end of the conflict, Israel unexpectedly found itself in control of some one million Palestinians, with no definite idea about their future status and lacking any concrete policy for their administration. In the wake of the war, the only objective adopted by then-Minister of Defense Moshe Dayan was to preserve normalcy in the territories through a mixture of economic inducements and a minimum of Israeli intervention. The idea was that the local populace would be given the freedom to administer itself as it wished, and would be able to maintain regular contact with the Arab world via the Jordan River bridges. In sharp contrast with, for example, the U.S. occupation of postwar Japan, which saw a general censorship of all Japanese media and a comprehensive revision of school curricula, Israel made no attempt to reshape Palestinian culture. It limited its oversight of the Arabic press in the territories to military and security matters, and allowed the continued use in local schools of Jordanian text books filled with vile anti-Semitic and anti-Israel propaganda.

Israel's restraint in this sphere -- which turned out to be desperately misguided -- is only part of the story. The larger part, still untold in all its detail, is of the astounding social and economic progress made by the Palestinian Arabs under Israeli "oppression." At the inception of the occupation, conditions in the territories were quite dire. Life expectancy was low; malnutrition, infectious diseases, and child mortality were rife; and the level of education was very poor. Prior to the 1967 war, fewer than 60 percent of all male adults had been employed, with unemployment among refugees running as high as 83 percent. Within a brief period after the war, Israeli occupation had led to dramatic improvements in general well-being, placing the population of the territories ahead of most of their Arab neighbors.

In the economic sphere, most of this progress was the result of access to the far larger and more advanced Israeli economy: the number of Palestinians working in Israel rose from zero in 1967 to 66,000 in 1975 and 109,000 by 1986, accounting for 35 per cent of the employed population of the West Bank and 45 percent in Gaza. Close to 2,000 industrial plants, employing almost half of the work force, were established in the territories under Israeli rule.

During the 1970's, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world -- ahead of such "wonders" as Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself. Although GNP per capita grew some what more slowly, the rate was still high by inter national standards, with per-capita GNP expanding tenfold between 1968 and 1991 from $ 165 to $1,715 (compared with Jordan's $1,050, Egypt's $600, Turkey's $1,630, and Tunisia's $1,440). By 1999, Palestinian per-capita income was nearly double Syria's, more than four times Yemen's, and 10 percent higher than Jordan's (one of the better off Arab states). Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.

Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.

No less remarkable were advances in the Palestinians' standard of living. By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967; 83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4 percent in 1967; and so on for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.

Finally, and perhaps most strikingly, during the two decades preceding the intifada of the late 1980's, the number of schoolchildren in the territories grew by 102 percent, and the number of classes by 99 per cent, though the population itself had grown by only 28 percent. Even more dramatic was the progress in higher education. At the time of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, not a single university existed in these territories. By the early 1990's, there were seven such institutions, boasting some 16,500 students. Illiteracy rates dropped to 14 percent of adults over age 15, compared with 69 per cent in Morocco, 61 percent in Egypt, 45 percent in Tunisia, and 44 percent in Syria.

All this as I have noted, took place against the backdrop of Israel's hands-off policy in the political and administrative spheres. Indeed, even as the PLO (until 1982 headquartered in Lebanon and thereafter in Tunisia) proclaimed its ongoing commitment to the destruction of the Jewish state, the Israelis did surprisingly little to limit its political influence in the territories. The publication of pro PLO editorials was permitted in the local press, and anti-Israel activities by PLO supporters were tolerated so long as they did not involve overt incitements to violence. Israel also allowed the free flow of PLO-controlled funds, a policy justified by Minister of Defense Ezer Weizmann in 1978 in these (deluded) words: "It does not matter that they get money from the PLO, as long as they don't build arms factories with it." Nor, with very few exceptions, did Israel encourage the formation of Palestinian political institutions that might serve as a counterweight to the PLO. As a result, the PLO gradually established itself as the predominant force in the territories, relegating the pragmatic traditional leadership to the fringes of the political system.

Why does the media not report on the oppression and pacification, degradation and humanitarian crises that exist in Palestinian territories? Children grow up without proper education, nutrition, clean drinking water, and a quiet place to rest their head. Hamas does everything they can to make this situation better, bulding schools, hospitals, infrastructure, while the Israeli government does everything in their power to make their lives harder to live and more difficult to maintain. The truth is right there for us to see it, I don't see why it's so hard for some to grasp.

The only part of that you got right was the last line – the truth is easily seen.

Clinton's proposal gave the Palestinians about 97% of the territory of the West Bank and sovereignty over their airspace. Refugees could not return to Israel without Israeli consent. An international force would remain in the Jordan valley for six years, replacing the IDF. Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem and the Haram as Sharif (temple mount) would be incorporated into Palestine. Saudi Arabian ambassador Prince Bandar Ibn Sultan said, "If Arafat does not accept what is available now, it won't be a tragedy, it will be a crime."

The Israeli government met on December 27 and accepted the proposals with reservations, which were "within the parameters." The Palestinians equivocated. The deadline passed, and no definitive Palestinian reply was forthcoming. According to Dennis Ross (special Middle East coordinator, U.S. Department of State, 1993-2001) he told Abu Ala (Ahmed Qurei) prime minister of the Palestinian Authority:

“Mark my words, they [the US] will disengage from the issue and they will do so at a time when you won't have Barak, or Amnon or Shlomo, but at time when you will have Sharon as Prime Minister. He will be elected for sure if there is no deal, and you 97% will become 40-45 percent; your capital in East Jerusalem will be gone; the IDF out of the Jordan Valley will be gone; unlimited right of return for refugees to your own state will be gone.

Abu Ala replied:

"I am afraid it may take another fifty years to settle this issue."

At a memorial dinner held in November 2005 in memory of Yitzhak Rabin, President Clinton said that Chairman Yasser Arafat had made a "colossal historical blunder" in refusing the terms, causing the breakdown of the peace process.

So what is the Palestinian leadership holding out for? The Palestinian proposal called for eventual return of all the refugees to Israel. This proposal was unacceptable to Israel as it would create an Arab majority in Israel and put an end to Jewish exercise of the right to self-determination.

The Palestinians are determined to accomplish via population what could not be achieved militarily (via the united Arab armies) or through decades of terror – the elimination of the Jewish state. Hamas vows never to recognize Israel and never to give up their claim to all of Palestine, though a majority of Palestinians apparently want them to follow the path of peace. The Palestinian leadership is not interested in the creation of a nation. They are singularly fixated on the elimination of the state of Israel. PERIOD.

Israel has shown an enormous amount of restraint – the time for restraint is over.

And now for your off-topic ramblings...

And blownragtop, the democracy/theocracy dichotomy you displayed as the problem here is absolutely bullshit. It's so naive and misunderstood. Iran represented the largest democracy in the middle east, until their democratically elected leader was ousted in a coup perpetrated by the CIA.

Iran was a democracy? Really? You sure about that? Here’s a short synopsis of Iran’s history since 1925. It seems to me that Iran was a constitutional monarchy ruled by either a dictatorial Shah or a dictatorial prime minister.

(In 1925 a) military coup established Reza Khan, a Persian officer of the Persian Cossack Brigade, as dictator and then hereditary Shah of the new Pahlavi dynasty (1925).

The then-Shah's tacit pro-German sympathies led to British and Indian forces from Iraq and Soviet forces from the north occupying Iran in August 1941. In September, the British forced Reza to abdicate in favour of his pro-British son Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, who ruled until 1979.

In 1951 Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq received the vote required from the parliament to nationalize the British-owned oil industry, in a situation known as the Abadan Crisis. Despite British pressure, including an economic blockade, the nationalization continued. Mossadegh was briefly removed from power in 1952 but was quickly re-appointed by the shah, due to an overwhelming majority in parliament supporting him, and he, in turn, forced the Shah into a brief exile in August 1953. Mosadegg convinced the parliament to grant him "emergency powers… to decree any law he felt necessary for obtaining not only financial solvency, but also electoral, judicial, and educational reforms”. Mosaddeq then moved to dissolve parliament, in spite of the Constitutional provision which gave the Shah sole authority to dissolve Parliament. After taking the additional step of abolishing the Constitutional guarantee of a “secret ballot”, Mosaddeq’s victory in the national plebiscite was assured. The electorate was forced into a non-secret ballot and Mosaddeq won 99.93% of the vote. The tactics employed by Mosaddeq to remain in power were dictatorial in their result, playing into the hands of those who wished to see him removed. Parliament was suspended indefinitely, and Mosaddeq’s emergency powers were extended.

A military coup headed by his former minister of the Interior and retired army general Fazlollah Zahedi, with the active support of the intelligence services of the British (MI6) and US (CIA) governments… forced Mossadegh from office.

The Iranian government agreed to allow a democratic system of government in 1954 with American support and entered into agreement with an international consortium of foreign companies.

There was a return to stability in the late 1950s and the 1960s. In 1957 martial law was ended after 16 years and Iran became closer to the West, joining the Baghdad Pact and receiving military and economic aid from the US. The Iranian government began a broad program of reforms to modernize the country, notably changing the quasi-feudal land system.

The middle east has been a hotbed of evil since that day in 1953. Perhaps this event catalyzed most of what today we call Islamic extremism.

It seems to me that the rise of Islamic extremism is a reaction to the progressive reforms (White Revolution) sponsored by the Shah. You know crazy things like allowing women to vote, allowing non-Muslims to hold office, redistributing land to the peasant sharecroppers. You can’t reconcile Sharia law with modernity.

In the context of regional turmoil and the Cold War, the Shah established himself as an indispensable ally of the West. Domestically, he advocated reform policies, culminating in the 1963 program known as the White Revolution, which included land reform, the extension of voting rights to women, and the elimination of illiteracy.

These measures provoked religious leaders, who feared losing their traditional authority, to raise their voices against him, which consequently led to some civil unrest. And the increasing arbitrariness of the Shah’s rule caused more provocation among the intellectuals, who were seeking democratic reforms. These opponents criticized the Shah for subservience to the United States and for violation of the constitution, which placed limits on royal power and provided for a representative government. The Shah saw himself as heir to the kings of ancient Iran, and in 1971 he held an extravagant celebration of 2,500 years of Persian monarchy. In 1976 he replaced the Islamic calendar with an "imperial" calendar, which began with the foundation of the Persian Empire more than 25 centuries earlier. These actions were viewed as anti-Islamic and resulted in religious opposition.

The powerful Shī‘ah clergy were also angered at the reforms that removed much of their traditional powers in the realms of education and family law, as well as lessening their previously strong influence in the rural areas. A "large percentage of the upper echelon of the clergy came from landowning families" deeply affected by the reform and much absentee rent income went directly to the clergy and their institutions. The rents from an estimated 10,000 villages whose rents helped finance the clerical establishment were eligible for redistribution.

Leader of the 1979 Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini got his start as a political leader and organizer opposing the White Revolution. In a March 22, 1963 speech at Qom in honor of students killed fighting against the Shah's reforms, he attacked provisions of the reforms that would allow members of Iran's non-Muslim minority to be elected or appointed to local offices:

"I have repeatedly pointed out that the government has evil intentions and is opposed to the ordinances of Islam. ... The Ministry of Justice has made clear its opposition to the ordinances of Islam by various measures like the abolition of the requirement that judges be Muslim and male; henceforth, Jews, Christians, and the enemies of Islam and the Muslims are to decide on affairs concerning the honor and person of the Muslims."

Spreading democracy is the guise under which most of the evil destructive acts in our lifetimes have been committed and these corrupt practice will not stop until people open their eyes wide enough to see that what they tell you is not the truth, but a series of lies constructed to shape our way of thinking. Sure, these people live in an archaic society, but hey, let 'em. Has nothing to do with democracy or theocracy. Religion is the base of all these lies, social control as it's best. If you had the sense of a billy goat, you'd know that. Just keep eating all that bullshit, I'll take mine in the form of searching for the truth, not merely settling for what other people tell me is true.

You can’t even keep your logic straight for ONE paragraph… You’ve gone on and on about the evil of religion. But yet you say it “has nothing to do with democracy or theocracy”. IF religion is evil then wouldn’t it necessarily follow that democracy is preferable to theocracy?

Just a few points points for you to ponder while bussing tables at Taco Casa.

5.0 svo

01-04-2009, 02:03 AM

Dear Zara,

I just love your scatter shooting style. Like the monkeys at the zoo you fling shit against the wall and see what sticks. And make no mistake; most of what you spew is utter shit. Fabricated, unsubstantiated shit. Your stream of consciousness jibberish reads like a 4th rate Hamas propaganda leaflet. (Do you secretly work for Al Jazeera?) Please try to be a little more succinct. Please try to stay on topic. And please try and use references when making ignorant statements like this: “What the fuck does Iran really have to do with this? Let us not forget that they were a democracy prior to American interference.” (I’ll address this later.)

Palestine has no past and was never a sovereign nation. Ever. It’s a myth. Like unicorns and your intelligence.

Here’s a quote from Zuheir Mohsen -Palestinian leader of the Syria-controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) between 1971 and 1979 that will help you understand.

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

Such crude comparisons aside, to present the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as "systematic oppression" is itself the inverse of the truth. It should be recalled, first of all, that this occupation did not come about as a consequence of some grand expansionist design, but rather was incidental to Israel's success against a pan-Arab attempt to destroy it. Upon the outbreak of Israeli Egyptian hostilities on June 5, 1967, the Israeli government secretly pleaded with King Hussein of Jordan, the de-facto ruler of the West Bank, to forgo any military action; the plea was rebuffed by the Jordanian monarch, who was loathe to lose the anticipated spoils of what was to be the Arabs' "final round" with Israel.

Thus it happened that, at the end of the conflict, Israel unexpectedly found itself in control of some one million Palestinians, with no definite idea about their future status and lacking any concrete policy for their administration. In the wake of the war, the only objective adopted by then-Minister of Defense Moshe Dayan was to preserve normalcy in the territories through a mixture of economic inducements and a minimum of Israeli intervention. The idea was that the local populace would be given the freedom to administer itself as it wished, and would be able to maintain regular contact with the Arab world via the Jordan River bridges. In sharp contrast with, for example, the U.S. occupation of postwar Japan, which saw a general censorship of all Japanese media and a comprehensive revision of school curricula, Israel made no attempt to reshape Palestinian culture. It limited its oversight of the Arabic press in the territories to military and security matters, and allowed the continued use in local schools of Jordanian text books filled with vile anti-Semitic and anti-Israel propaganda.

Israel's restraint in this sphere -- which turned out to be desperately misguided -- is only part of the story. The larger part, still untold in all its detail, is of the astounding social and economic progress made by the Palestinian Arabs under Israeli "oppression." At the inception of the occupation, conditions in the territories were quite dire. Life expectancy was low; malnutrition, infectious diseases, and child mortality were rife; and the level of education was very poor. Prior to the 1967 war, fewer than 60 percent of all male adults had been employed, with unemployment among refugees running as high as 83 percent. Within a brief period after the war, Israeli occupation had led to dramatic improvements in general well-being, placing the population of the territories ahead of most of their Arab neighbors.

In the economic sphere, most of this progress was the result of access to the far larger and more advanced Israeli economy: the number of Palestinians working in Israel rose from zero in 1967 to 66,000 in 1975 and 109,000 by 1986, accounting for 35 per cent of the employed population of the West Bank and 45 percent in Gaza. Close to 2,000 industrial plants, employing almost half of the work force, were established in the territories under Israeli rule.

During the 1970's, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world -- ahead of such "wonders" as Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself. Although GNP per capita grew some what more slowly, the rate was still high by inter national standards, with per-capita GNP expanding tenfold between 1968 and 1991 from $ 165 to $1,715 (compared with Jordan's $1,050, Egypt's $600, Turkey's $1,630, and Tunisia's $1,440). By 1999, Palestinian per-capita income was nearly double Syria's, more than four times Yemen's, and 10 percent higher than Jordan's (one of the better off Arab states). Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.

Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.

No less remarkable were advances in the Palestinians' standard of living. By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967; 83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4 percent in 1967; and so on for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.

Finally, and perhaps most strikingly, during the two decades preceding the intifada of the late 1980's, the number of schoolchildren in the territories grew by 102 percent, and the number of classes by 99 per cent, though the population itself had grown by only 28 percent. Even more dramatic was the progress in higher education. At the time of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, not a single university existed in these territories. By the early 1990's, there were seven such institutions, boasting some 16,500 students. Illiteracy rates dropped to 14 percent of adults over age 15, compared with 69 per cent in Morocco, 61 percent in Egypt, 45 percent in Tunisia, and 44 percent in Syria.

All this as I have noted, took place against the backdrop of Israel's hands-off policy in the political and administrative spheres. Indeed, even as the PLO (until 1982 headquartered in Lebanon and thereafter in Tunisia) proclaimed its ongoing commitment to the destruction of the Jewish state, the Israelis did surprisingly little to limit its political influence in the territories. The publication of pro PLO editorials was permitted in the local press, and anti-Israel activities by PLO supporters were tolerated so long as they did not involve overt incitements to violence. Israel also allowed the free flow of PLO-controlled funds, a policy justified by Minister of Defense Ezer Weizmann in 1978 in these (deluded) words: "It does not matter that they get money from the PLO, as long as they don't build arms factories with it." Nor, with very few exceptions, did Israel encourage the formation of Palestinian political institutions that might serve as a counterweight to the PLO. As a result, the PLO gradually established itself as the predominant force in the territories, relegating the pragmatic traditional leadership to the fringes of the political system.

The only part of that you got right was the last line – the truth is easily seen.

Clinton's proposal gave the Palestinians about 97% of the territory of the West Bank and sovereignty over their airspace. Refugees could not return to Israel without Israeli consent. An international force would remain in the Jordan valley for six years, replacing the IDF. Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem and the Haram as Sharif (temple mount) would be incorporated into Palestine. Saudi Arabian ambassador Prince Bandar Ibn Sultan said, "If Arafat does not accept what is available now, it won't be a tragedy, it will be a crime."

The Israeli government met on December 27 and accepted the proposals with reservations, which were "within the parameters." The Palestinians equivocated. The deadline passed, and no definitive Palestinian reply was forthcoming. According to Dennis Ross (special Middle East coordinator, U.S. Department of State, 1993-2001) he told Abu Ala (Ahmed Qurei) prime minister of the Palestinian Authority:

“Mark my words, they [the US] will disengage from the issue and they will do so at a time when you won't have Barak, or Amnon or Shlomo, but at time when you will have Sharon as Prime Minister. He will be elected for sure if there is no deal, and you 97% will become 40-45 percent; your capital in East Jerusalem will be gone; the IDF out of the Jordan Valley will be gone; unlimited right of return for refugees to your own state will be gone.

Abu Ala replied:

"I am afraid it may take another fifty years to settle this issue."

At a memorial dinner held in November 2005 in memory of Yitzhak Rabin, President Clinton said that Chairman Yasser Arafat had made a "colossal historical blunder" in refusing the terms, causing the breakdown of the peace process.

So what is the Palestinian leadership holding out for? The Palestinian proposal called for eventual return of all the refugees to Israel. This proposal was unacceptable to Israel as it would create an Arab majority in Israel and put an end to Jewish exercise of the right to self-determination.

The Palestinians are determined to accomplish via population what could not be achieved militarily (via the united Arab armies) or through decades of terror – the elimination of the Jewish state. Hamas vows never to recognize Israel and never to give up their claim to all of Palestine, though a majority of Palestinians apparently want them to follow the path of peace. The Palestinian leadership is not interested in the creation of a nation. They are singularly fixated on the elimination of the state of Israel. PERIOD.

Israel has shown an enormous amount of restraint – the time for restraint is over.

And now for your off-topic ramblings...

Iran was a democracy? Really? You sure about that? Here’s a short synopsis of Iran’s history since 1925. It seems to me that Iran was a constitutional monarchy ruled by either a dictatorial Shah or a dictatorial prime minister.

(In 1925 a) military coup established Reza Khan, a Persian officer of the Persian Cossack Brigade, as dictator and then hereditary Shah of the new Pahlavi dynasty (1925).

The then-Shah's tacit pro-German sympathies led to British and Indian forces from Iraq and Soviet forces from the north occupying Iran in August 1941. In September, the British forced Reza to abdicate in favour of his pro-British son Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, who ruled until 1979.

In 1951 Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq received the vote required from the parliament to nationalize the British-owned oil industry, in a situation known as the Abadan Crisis. Despite British pressure, including an economic blockade, the nationalization continued. Mossadegh was briefly removed from power in 1952 but was quickly re-appointed by the shah, due to an overwhelming majority in parliament supporting him, and he, in turn, forced the Shah into a brief exile in August 1953. Mosadegg convinced the parliament to grant him "emergency powers… to decree any law he felt necessary for obtaining not only financial solvency, but also electoral, judicial, and educational reforms”. Mosaddeq then moved to dissolve parliament, in spite of the Constitutional provision which gave the Shah sole authority to dissolve Parliament. After taking the additional step of abolishing the Constitutional guarantee of a “secret ballot”, Mosaddeq’s victory in the national plebiscite was assured. The electorate was forced into a non-secret ballot and Mosaddeq won 99.93% of the vote. The tactics employed by Mosaddeq to remain in power were dictatorial in their result, playing into the hands of those who wished to see him removed. Parliament was suspended indefinitely, and Mosaddeq’s emergency powers were extended.

A military coup headed by his former minister of the Interior and retired army general Fazlollah Zahedi, with the active support of the intelligence services of the British (MI6) and US (CIA) governments… forced Mossadegh from office.

The Iranian government agreed to allow a democratic system of government in 1954 with American support and entered into agreement with an international consortium of foreign companies.

There was a return to stability in the late 1950s and the 1960s. In 1957 martial law was ended after 16 years and Iran became closer to the West, joining the Baghdad Pact and receiving military and economic aid from the US. The Iranian government began a broad program of reforms to modernize the country, notably changing the quasi-feudal land system.

It seems to me that the rise of Islamic extremism is a reaction to the progressive reforms (White Revolution) sponsored by the Shah. You know crazy things like allowing women to vote, allowing non-Muslims to hold office, redistributing land to the peasant sharecroppers. You can’t reconcile Sharia law with modernity.

In the context of regional turmoil and the Cold War, the Shah established himself as an indispensable ally of the West. Domestically, he advocated reform policies, culminating in the 1963 program known as the White Revolution, which included land reform, the extension of voting rights to women, and the elimination of illiteracy.

These measures provoked religious leaders, who feared losing their traditional authority, to raise their voices against him, which consequently led to some civil unrest. And the increasing arbitrariness of the Shah’s rule caused more provocation among the intellectuals, who were seeking democratic reforms. These opponents criticized the Shah for subservience to the United States and for violation of the constitution, which placed limits on royal power and provided for a representative government. The Shah saw himself as heir to the kings of ancient Iran, and in 1971 he held an extravagant celebration of 2,500 years of Persian monarchy. In 1976 he replaced the Islamic calendar with an "imperial" calendar, which began with the foundation of the Persian Empire more than 25 centuries earlier. These actions were viewed as anti-Islamic and resulted in religious opposition.

The powerful Shī‘ah clergy were also angered at the reforms that removed much of their traditional powers in the realms of education and family law, as well as lessening their previously strong influence in the rural areas. A "large percentage of the upper echelon of the clergy came from landowning families" deeply affected by the reform and much absentee rent income went directly to the clergy and their institutions. The rents from an estimated 10,000 villages whose rents helped finance the clerical establishment were eligible for redistribution.

Leader of the 1979 Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini got his start as a political leader and organizer opposing the White Revolution. In a March 22, 1963 speech at Qom in honor of students killed fighting against the Shah's reforms, he attacked provisions of the reforms that would allow members of Iran's non-Muslim minority to be elected or appointed to local offices:

"I have repeatedly pointed out that the government has evil intentions and is opposed to the ordinances of Islam. ... The Ministry of Justice has made clear its opposition to the ordinances of Islam by various measures like the abolition of the requirement that judges be Muslim and male; henceforth, Jews, Christians, and the enemies of Islam and the Muslims are to decide on affairs concerning the honor and person of the Muslims."

You can’t even keep your logic straight for ONE paragraph… You’ve gone on and on about the evil of religion. But yet you say it “has nothing to do with democracy or theocracy”. IF religion is evil then wouldn’t it necessarily follow that democracy is preferable to theocracy?

Just a few points points for you to ponder while bussing tables at Taco Casa.

Dear Blownraghead
WTF!

AL P

01-04-2009, 02:30 AM

I bet if if your Starbucks got closed down you would be ready to fight.

The Hamas are Iranian influenced to make Israel attack Gaza. Inturn making the whole Muslim community hate Israel. Why else would anyone throw rocks at a giant and run away. They want them to attack. Thats obvious.

I hate Starbucks.

And of course they want Israel to attack. I'm just saying why cry about it when they get what they want? Hamas wants a fucking war so bad, now they got one.

Denny

01-04-2009, 02:34 AM

Dear Blownraghead
WTF!

Is that all you've got to a thorough rebuttal? Really?!?!

Denny

01-04-2009, 02:36 AM

I hate Starbucks.

And of course they want Israel to attack. I'm just saying why cry about it when they get what they want? Hamas wants a fucking war so bad, now they got one.

I don't know if I hate Starbucks because I've never been in one, but they sure annoy me.

As far as the whole Hamas influence, don't be surprised to see a heavy Egyptian influence uncovered. It'll all come out soon.

5.0 svo

01-04-2009, 02:37 AM

God has already revealed himself to us on several occasions. Since His Son came down, taught us how to live, died for our sins and then rose from the dead; there's no reason for Him to do any more "revealing." The Covenant that was made between God and us was made to accept Him on Faith. By faith, it means to believe in His sacrifice and to accept Jesus as your Savior. Anyone can see and believe, but to believe without seeing is pleasing to Him.

I've never heard God telling anyone to buy a personal jet or anything like that. But if you read the Bible, it tell you when God told the Israelites to build the Temple, where to build it and exactly how it was to be built. Just from reading it, the Temple can be brought back again just like it was then. There's actually a replica of the Temple in Arkansas. I'll find it and show you guys.

Denny, my gullable friend
Do you realize how stupid that really sounds? "to beleive without seeing is pleasing to him" Is this shit you just make up?
He sent his son down?.... Jesus was a political rebel that was crusified. He was nailed to a cross like hundreds of other people. How is that showing us how to live? And jesus may have shown those people how to live but he has hardly shown any of us how to live. Oh wait we could read that farse called the holy bible. Which was written by alot of different people that ARE NOT GOD. Oh but they had visions and such. Come on give me a break! If the bible is a manual on how to live your life, you better study it for 30 years before you start living. Otherwise you would prolly beleive the law is an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
If you need someone to tell you how to live, right from wrong, then you are a retard.
Tell me are you born with that faith in Jesus Christ? Cause if not then that is hardly fair to Abdul Waheed the 15 year old kid fighting for Allah. He has prolly never even seen a holy bible but will burn in hell because he committed suicide in the name of Allah. Sppppssst, Jesus died for your sins. pass it on. Faith is beleiving what you want to beleive, not beleiving in the truth.
__________________

5.0 svo

01-04-2009, 02:43 AM

Is that all you've got to a thorough rebuttal? Really?!?!

Are you kidding, that nigger wrote a fucking novel!

Denny

01-04-2009, 02:48 AM

Denny, my gullable friend
Do you realize how stupid that really sounds? "to beleive without seeing is pleasing to him" Is this shit you just make up?
He sent his son down?.... Jesus was a political rebel that was crusified. He was nailed to a cross like hundreds of other people. How is that showing us how to live? And jesus may have shown those people how to live but he has hardly shown any of us how to live. Oh wait we could read that farse called the holy bible. Which was written by alot of different people that ARE NOT GOD. Oh but they had visions and such. Come on give me a break! If the bible is a manual on how to live your life, you better study it for 30 years before you start living. Otherwise you would prolly beleive the law is an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
If you need someone to tell you how to live, right from wrong, then you are a retard.
Tell me are you born with that faith in Jesus Christ? Cause if not then that is hardly fair to Abdul Waheed the 15 year old kid fighting for Allah. He has prolly never even seen a holy bible but will burn in hell because he committed suicide in the name of Allah. Sppppssst, Jesus died for your sins. pass it on. Faith is beleiving what you want to beleive, not beleiving in the truth.
__________________
How sad...

Anyway, the Bible is the Word of God, written by hand through chosen people. We ALL need God to tell us how to live because we're ALL doing it wrong. Every last one of us. We ALL fall short of God's expectations. That what makes it even more important to have Jesus in our lives. You can argue with me about it until you're blue in the face. You're not going to change my mind. Hopefully someone else reading this will see what I'm saying and further research it. Maybe even come to accept Christ. What a great victory for Him! Thanks for assisting in helping me spread the Good News!

As for the 15 year old who is willing to die in the name of Allah and has never had the opportunity to accept Christ (or anyone who has never had the opportunity to accept Christ, for that matter), I'm not sure what happens to them. It's not for me to say anyway. I do know that one needs to accept Him in order to receive Salvation. If one has never had that opportunity to accept, I just don't know. Rejection, though, will get you sent to hell as sure as a fart can clear an elevator.

Denny

01-04-2009, 02:51 AM

Are you kidding, that nigger wrote a fucking novel!

As much as I hate to admit it, I did LOL at this. (I hate that word)

Anyway, I sighed when I saw it as well, but had to read. He did rebutt it well.

SS Junk

01-04-2009, 05:34 AM

Dear Blownraghead
WTF!
didn't read through most of it, but it seems like he took out his scrote and rubbed taint all over keyboard jihadi's face.

Mr Majestyk

01-04-2009, 10:15 AM

Yea! Go and join up the fight for JESUS!!

How much more 16th century can you get?

FudgePeckers notion that the nation of Israel is fighting against Hamas in the name of JESUS shows his complete ignorance of Jewish culture and faith. Jews do not regard Jesus as the Son of God, rather he is regarded as a great teacher descended from the line of King David who rightfully holds a special place in Jewish history along with many other Jewish patriarchs. FudgePecker has likely heard all his pathetic life that Jesus was a Jew, and thus in his simpleton mind believes the Jews of modern-day Isteal are fighting in the name of Jesus. Alhough Jews and Christians acknowledge the same God, they do not currently both acknowledge Jesus in His role as Saviour, and thus will not both be joined in a "fight for JESUS" LOL.

Short version, FudgePecker, is STFU about matters of which you know nothing, which is virtually any subject outside of how to spoon taco meat.

black01gt

01-04-2009, 07:01 PM

.... Jesus was a political rebel that was crusified. He was nailed to a cross like hundreds of other people. How is that showing us how to live? __________________
Actions. He probably could have taken the typical and too predictable chickenshit route of turning his back to his beliefs and convictions and talked his way out of it, but he didn't. One of my favorites is still "let he without sin cast the first stone."
Course if we paid attention to that it would shut down this forum. :laughing:

AL P

01-04-2009, 08:38 PM

Fox466

01-04-2009, 08:51 PM

Damn!

5.0svo just got crusified...

sc281_99-0135

01-04-2009, 08:55 PM

5.0 svo

01-04-2009, 10:56 PM

Well, some people can read the Bible and not have to sound the words out, i'm just saying. I'm no hardcore christian but your opinion comes off as a bunch of bitter horseshit. It's not God's fault that you got your fudge packed in prison.

So if I ask you to explain something to me out of the bible you wont have any problem then right?
And its not my fault you get your fudge packed in the free world u ass monger!

Denny

01-05-2009, 12:15 AM

So if I ask you to explain something to me out of the bible you wont have any problem then right?
And its not my fault you get your fudge packed in the free world u ass monger!

So you're not denying that your cornhole was pushed in?!?!

Anyway, there's a difference with explaining something to a person seeking answers and explaining something to a person looking for an argument. Who wants to dicuss anything with that type of person?:confused2:

fast83

01-05-2009, 01:04 AM

So you're not denying that your cornhole was pushed in?!?!

Anyway, there's a difference with explaining something to a person seeking answers and explaining something to a person looking for an argument. Who wants to dicuss anything with that type of person?:confused2:

lol,your comment reminded me of beavis."i am the great cornholeyo!"

(searching for TP for my bunghole)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L8-TEsIxUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L8-TEsIxUU