UAW dooms GM, bailout dies in Senate

[jyro]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/14-billion-auto-bailout-dies-apf-13813715.html

"A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.

The collapse came after bipartisan talks on the auto rescue broke down over GOP demands that the United Auto Workers union agree to steep wage cuts by 2009 to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers."

[BP]

This is like jumping out of a plane thats going down and not using the parachute because it doesn't match your shoes. Some people just don't know when to give up. Screw em, I just hope I don't ever need to use the warranty on my Dodge.

[8mpg]

we will see what happens. Hopefully GM will bail out on the UAW. When all of those UAW guys are out of a job, they will finally realize that they were overpaid and demanded way to much from their company.

I wonder how bad stocks are going to crash tomorrow. Looks like oil will be coming back down after a little spike.

[PeeWeeC5]

Screw'em all, let them sink there own ship.

[5.0_CJ]

What would Reagan do?

He would fire these stupid motherfuckers and replace them with people that are grateful.


How difficult is it to put 8 bolts on a fender all day long?

[mikeb]

Looks like the uaw has signed their own death warrant. So be it.

[houstondallas]

Overpaid?? how much they make to put a car together?? i thought they were all a buncha alcoholics....??

[8mpg]

Overpaid?? how much they make to put a car together?? i thought they were all a buncha alcoholics....??

Average non-skilled line worker for GM is $34/hr and over $70 with benefits

[5.0_CJ]

Overpaid?? how much they make to put a car together?? i thought they were all a buncha alcoholics....??

I use to be a loan officer for grand rapids, michigan. I financed many, many UAW workers and I was seeing the janitors (which sweep up shit) 1 year on the job making 24/hr.

that's about as low as it goes. Generally, an assembly worker would make 30-45/hr.

[mikeb]

Average non-skilled line worker for GM is $34/hr and over $70 with benefits

Not any more.

[5.0_CJ]

Not any more.

I can tell you no new union contracts have been signed since I was financing them and that's about right.

[71chevellejohn]

Average non-skilled line worker for GM is $34/hr and over $70 with benefits

Average for the foreign automakers is around $40 including benefits/legacy costs


Gee, wonder why they profit?!?

Fuck the UAW

[8mpg]

Not any more.

sad thing is, many will be a drain on our US gov now and claim unemployment. Im sure they would rather claim unemployment than return to a job where they are paid a correct amount for the job skills.

My big question will be, when the companies do go bankrupt....how much are the taxpayers going to have to shell out for pensions?

[Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~]

Bush and Paulson with use the Tarp money IMO

[mikeb]

sad thing is, many will be a drain on our US gov now and claim unemployment. Im sure they would rather claim unemployment than return to a job where they are paid a correct amount for the job skills.

My big question will be, when the companies do go bankrupt....how much are the taxpayers going to have to shell out for pensions?

There is no doubt that a bankrupt big three will weigh heavily on the taxpayers for pensions and unemployment, perhaps as much as the bailout would have cost or more. And we loose a manufacturing base. Still, the UAW has to play ball, and they refuse. So fuck them.

[BP]

Average for the foreign automakers is around $40 including benefits/legacy costs


Gee, wonder why they profit?!?

Fuck the UAW

Japanese make that. The Germans make substantially more and only work 28 hours a week. Then again their cars aren't even close to being comparable in price.

[8mpg]

There is no doubt that a bankrupt big three will weigh heavily on the taxpayers for pensions and unemployment, perhaps as much as the bailout would have cost or more. And we loose a manufacturing base. Still, the UAW has to play ball, and they refuse. So fuck them.
\
yep... Hopefully this will be a lesson learned across the country and a lesson for all the ungrateful unions out there (I know there might be some good ones). Im not to sure why the big wigs at GM are not happy about the chance to dump the UAW contracts and pension liabilities. Now they can start fresh with 1/2 the labor costs and really make some money. Their outrageous salaries and bonuses will be even bigger.

[gpamp]

The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare. :eek:

[8mpg]

The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare. :eek:

Where are you getting your sources? I just read a yahoo news thing saying GM average UAW worker was $29.xx and Toyota was $30... Read one on CNN a while back showing $34 GM and $70 with benefits. Either way...their days of FREE (no monthly healthcare dues) are over.

From some website:
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)


Another comparison:
http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606

[mikeb]

The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare. :eek:

So where is the problem with the uaw? A $3/hour pay cut gets the job done. $25/hour is $4k a month which anyone should be able to live on. But the uaw says no. So they are fucked when bankruptcy is filed.

[8mpg]

So where is the problem with the uaw? A $3/hour pay cut gets the job done. $25/hour is $4k a month which anyone should be able to live on.

Just did the research...it seems as though it is the amazing benefits package that is killing them. GM pays over 7x the amount for benefits. The benefits makes the average worker price jump up to $73.73 vs Toyotas $48


and apparently the UAW workers are slower and take 34.3 hours per car vs Toyota's 27.9

[gt350mustang]

You think these UAW people would not go back to work at a non union GM? Even taking a pay cut they won't get better leaving GM.

[MrSS]

apparently the UAW workers are slower and take 34.3 hours per car vs Toyota's 27.9

I wonder how much that has to due with how many SUV and large trucks we make compared to toyota? I'd think it takes longer to make a tahoe over a camry, just curious if all vehicles are averaged in that number.

[blownragtop]

The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare. :eek:

Just to make it SIMPLE for YOU... here's a chart

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/images/wm2162_chart1.gif





Oh, by the way... I love how you continually work Obama buzzwords into your posting – you’ve got the usage down - now maybe you can work on the spelling.

AUDACITY

http://www.moonbattery.com/HUGH-OBAMA-FRIENDS.jpg

[mikeb]

You think these UAW people would not go back to work at a non union GM? Even taking a pay cut they won't get better leaving GM.

perhaps, but without the uaw shield after bankruptcy. Workers will perform on their own merits.

the uaw is done.

[71chevellejohn]

GM is paying more retired employees than it has current employees.
Also part of the problem with giving these guys health care is they are living longer than was expected thus costing GM even more money.

[slow99]

The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare. :eek:

Get the fuck out of here. Google OPEB.

[TexasDevilDog]

I cannot feel sorry for people that think they are entitled to more than market wages just because they collectively bargain. If unions were more like a professional guild and culled the leaches from their groups, they would be worth it. Heck, I would join such a organization.

[ThreeFingerPete]

I cannot feel sorry for people that think they are entitled to more than market wages just because they collectively bargain. If unions were more like a professional guild and culled the leaches from their groups, they would be worth it. Heck, I would join such a organization.

From most of the unions that I've seen, not only are the leaches not culled from the herd, they're supported and made to feel like they rightfully deserve every bit and more of what they're getting.

[Vertnut]

Where are you getting your sources? I just read a yahoo news thing saying GM average UAW worker was $29.xx and Toyota was $30... Read one on CNN a while back showing $34 GM and $70 with benefits. Either way...their days of FREE (no monthly healthcare dues) are over.

From some website:
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)


Another comparison:
http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606
Sources? He's never had sources before, so why would he now? :rolleyes:
I think GM's bigger issue with the union, is the retirement pensions they pay out. Some of these guys (I know 3), retired at 48-50 after 30 years, and still draw 80% of their pay! How many of those guys are out there? That is a major difference between GM and Toyota, Honda, etc.

[gip99drop]

I would love to make 70+ bucks and hour. :)

[JimD]

Fuck em.

[Sgt Beavis]

GM is hiring bankruptcy attorneys.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081211/AUTO01/812110493/-1/rss

[Kart21]

GM killed itself. Didn't make wanted cars. And they agree to the contract terms, didn't have to accept the contract that UAW worked under. :D

[03WhiteGT]

Oh, by the way... I love how you continually work Obama buzzwords into your posting – you’ve got the usage down - now maybe you can work on the spelling.

AUDACITY


LMFAO

[Mr Majestyk]

The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare. :eek:

You know nothing of the costs of benefit packages, you stupid fuck. Of course with the kind of McJobs you might qualify for, benefits aren't part of deal.

[prochargedpony]

GM killed itself. Didn't make wanted cars. And they agree to the contract terms, didn't have to accept the contract that UAW worked under. :D


I love it, everytime the UAW doesn't get their way they never ever take responsibility. They wouldn't even comment after it was all said and done. I love how their big wigs don't give two shits about the workers, the people ACTUALLY doing the work are just following like stupid little sheep, the director doesn't want to cut his salary or the other heads, so he says I don't care about the little people who support a family, I will find another company to ruin. Now all those people are fucked, but they will picket gm after they drop the contract and gm finds reasonable priced workers.

[BP]

I would love to make 70+ bucks and hour doing a job that is no more complicated than working the fry station at MdDonalds.

Fixed.

[gpamp]

You know nothing of the costs of benefit packages, you stupid fuck. Of course with the kind of McJobs you might qualify for, benefits aren't part of deal.
Look, you ignorant pussy, I was throwing the simple hourly wage numbers.

The chart up there that says UAW members get 70+ and hour, and private sector workers get 23 is a horrible mis-statement. The $70/hr is with the benefit package figured in, where the $23/hr is not.

[67camino]

Look, you ignorant pussy, I was throwing the simple hourly wage numbers.

The chart up there that says UAW members get 70+ and hour, and private sector workers get 23 is a horrible mis-statement. The $70/hr is with the benefit package figured in, where the $23/hr is not.
you dont really think that the benefit package cost 47+ an hour do you.

[FATHERFORD]

you dont really think that the benefit package cost 47+ an hour do you.


Sick leave, PTO, healthcare while working and after retirement... I can see that.

[DaisyDoesDallas]

I am not knowledgable on the bankruptcy rules, but if they go bankrupt what pensions do the government pick up, just the ones for people that are already retired or for those currently working? :confused:

[fitzwell]

pertty tough decision...

employed at 85 % of what i was making or unemployed at nothing...in Michigan :eek: Guess i'm too stoopid to figure that one out. Let em go tits up. One day, all contracts are null & void. Then watch the UAW try to keep these nitwits employed.

Side note..were these concessions put to a rank & file vote, or was it the union bigwigs decision??

[Mr Majestyk]

Look, you ignorant pussy, I was throwing the simple hourly wage numbers.

The chart up there that says UAW members get 70+ and hour, and private sector workers get 23 is a horrible mis-statement. The $70/hr is with the benefit package figured in, where the $23/hr is not.

You needn't worry about either, you fucking cunt. The kind of shit-ass jobs for which you might be qualified provide neither benefits or pay $23/hr. Stay out of topics about which you know virtually nothing, which essentially is any topic above the mental comprehension of a 7-year-old.

[JP135]

Look, you ignorant pussy.


Oh look the fascist is out of the closet.

And screw the UAW. Good riddance - they are a worthless drain on industry and well as on their blind-sheep membership.

[67camino]

What would Reagan do?

He would fire these stupid motherfuckers and replace them with people that are grateful.


How difficult is it to put 8 bolts on a fender all day long?
Why dont we just make all these states right to work and let them hire people on there merits and abilities. I bet you would get better quality and a cheaper car.

[slow06]

The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare. :eek:
gpamp, haven't seen you here in a long time.

Nobody will argue about them getting $3 more, that is reasonable. I don’t think anybody has a problem with healthcare either, but they have to remember that a lot of working Americans have no healthcare or have to pay for a portion of theirs.

Also, they have the opportunity to work for 20-30 years, retire at age 50, and still receive a large portion of their paycheck for the next 20-30. I don’t know what you do for a living, but I know I don’t have that opportunity, and I am willing to bet you don’t either.

They are lucky as hell to make what they do and have the awesome benefit packages they have. I don’t begrudge them for that, but their incredible inflexibility in this dire situation is staggering. It seems that they would rather drag the company down and lose their jobs than give up some of the rather generous benefits they have. They now believe they are entitled to those things, and the bottom line is they are not.

They got together, got GM to agree to a sweet deal, and they rode it out as long as it would go. The ride is over. They need to come to the realization that the have milked the cow dry.

Just to be fair I will say that GM is to blame also. I don’t know the specifics, but apparently they had the money to pay their benefit obligations and misused it. They spread themselves too thin with 15 different brands selling 20 different cars. They also failed to adjust their production properly to align with demand related to gas prices and “going green”.

Tired of typing.

[8mpg]

How far she goes....we will never know..

The DJIA is down 120points and oil is down $4 and it just opened a couple hours ago...

[momo stallion]

How far she goes....we will never know..

The DJIA is down 120points and oil is down $4 and it just opened a couple hours ago...

yea and that’s after a bounce back from the initial open no less. it was going to be much worse but the treasury department is meddling with shit it shouldn’t.

what possible reason could the market have to go up?
retail industry: down
airlines: down
oil consumption: down
jobless claims: record high
foreclosures = like a motherfucker!
coupled that with a 50 billion dollar wall street scandal, failing auto...
worst of all, failing government.

[mikeb]

pertty tough decision...

employed at 85 % of what i was making or unemployed at nothing...in Michigan :eek: Guess i'm too stoopid to figure that one out. Let em go tits up. One day, all contracts are null & void. Then watch the UAW try to keep these nitwits employed.

Side note..were these concessions put to a rank & file vote, or was it the union bigwigs decision??

hopefully they'll strike when the bankruptcy judge sets their deal, and we'll get a reagan style mass firing.

Seems like to me that a condition of the senate deal should have been that if they don't take the deal that the senate is offering them then they are ineligible for unemployment.

[big_tiger]

Imagine the cars they will make after this is all set and done.

[lolo89cpe]

This is like jumping out of a plane thats going down and not using the parachute because it doesn't match your shoes. Some people just don't know when to give up. Screw em, I just hope I don't ever need to use the warranty on my Dodge.
couldnt agree more

[5.0_CJ]

The average wage of a UAW member is $28/hr. Whereas the average wage of a non-UAW employee at, say, a Toyota plant in the U.S., is $25/hr.

The audacidy of wanting $3 more, AND healthcare. :eek:

bullshit, I financed those toyota and honda employees, their average wages are not $25/hr. I regularly saw line workers making 18/hr, compared to the UAW line worker at 40/hr.

[gpamp]

bullshit, I financed those toyota and honda employees, their average wages are not $25/hr. I regularly saw line workers making 18/hr, compared to the UAW line worker at 40/hr.
And a lot of them actually make MORE than UA workers.

Lets look at it from another angle. Each Republican senator who voted it down has a foreign auto plant in their state. I'd like for congress to see how many free Nissans & Volkswagens they have in their driveway. Sure would be profitable to help auto plants in their states get rid of the competition.

[Vertnut]

And a lot of them actually make MORE than UA workers.

Lets look at it from another angle. Each Republican senator who voted it down has a foreign auto plant in their state. I'd like for congress to see how many free Nissans & Volkswagens they have in their driveway. Sure would be profitable to help auto plants in their states get rid of the competition.
Just so you know, they needed 60 votes for it to get through the senate, right? There were 52 "yes" votes. There were 4 "no" votes from Democrats- Baucus, Lincoln, Reid, and Tester. There were 4 "no-votes" from the Dems- Biden, Kerry, Kennedy, and Wyden. That's eight. That means that the Dems could have made it happen themselves, if they had really wanted it. Instead, they will play politics and blame the Republican minority. Typical liberal scum...or better known as your "breathren". :cool:

[sc281_99-0135]

And a lot of them actually make MORE than UA workers.

Lets look at it from another angle. Each Republican senator who voted it down has a foreign auto plant in their state. I'd like for congress to see how many free Nissans & Volkswagens they have in their driveway. Sure would be profitable to help auto plants in their states get rid of the competition.



CITE YOUR SOURCE DUMBASS!

[Vertnut]

CITE YOUR SOURCE DUMBASS!
Psssst. I've already stated that he doesn't have any sources. ;)

[sc281_99-0135]

Psssst. I've already stated that he doesn't have any sources. ;)



just reiterating how much of an idiot he is.


just to make sure it got through ;)

[Big Thumper]

CITE YOUR SOURCE DUMBASS!

He dreams them at night. Its the same dream...Bush is up on a cross, the masses are throwing rocks at him, while he sits at Obama's feet, Obama pats him on the head.

[5.0_CJ]

And a lot of them actually make MORE than UA workers.

Lets look at it from another angle. Each Republican senator who voted it down has a foreign auto plant in their state. I'd like for congress to see how many free Nissans & Volkswagens they have in their driveway. Sure would be profitable to help auto plants in their states get rid of the competition.

Why are you qualified to make these statements? I have seen literally hundreds of paystubs directly from the hands of workers from toyota, honda, ford, and gm. I've looked over the W2's, I know this shit, I'm speaking from a level of confidence and understanding of the industry, not things I suspect. I don't just know the average incomes of each company, I know the averages of each position at each plant of each company. I know how much their health care deductions are bi-weekly, I understand their seniority pay brackets, etc. I'm pretty confident in saying UAW workers are overpaid and exploiting their companies.

[BP]

Why are you qualified to make these statements? I have seen literally hundreds of paystubs directly from the hands of workers from toyota, honda, ford, and gm. I've looked over the W2's, I know this shit, I'm speaking from a level of confidence and understanding of the industry, not things I suspect.

How many houses does the average UAW employee with 20+ years on the job own?

[5.0_CJ]

How many houses does the average UAW employee with 20+ years on the job own?

I financed autos, but I can tell you many have paid off mortgages by the time they are 40.

[BP]

I financed autos, but I can tell you many have paid off mortgages by the time they are 40.

98.4% or higher?

[Cartman]

this is going to be interesting to all the AT&T employees, because the contract is up in march. They are talking strike already, because the company wants us the employees to pay a % of our insurance, which i don't see the problem with that if i get a 3.00 an hour raise to off set the increase in cost of living the last 3yrs. but the union thinks it is more important to have "free" healthcare. I have told the union already that I will stay out a week and nothing more, unless they are going to pay my bills.

What is really funny is that the unions pressed hard for obama, saying he is behind the unions and will make companies work with them, and then biden goes and no votes...lol. greatness

[67camino]

this is going to be interesting to all the AT&T employees, because the contract is up in march. They are talking strike already, because the company wants us the employees to pay a % of our insurance, which i don't see the problem with that if i get a 3.00 an hour raise to off set the increase in cost of living the last 3yrs. but the union thinks it is more important to have "free" healthcare. I have told the union already that I will stay out a week and nothing more, unless they are going to pay my bills.

What is really funny is that the unions pressed hard for obama, saying he is behind the unions and will make companies work with them, and then biden goes and no votes...lol. greatness
The CWA is worse than the UAW I know i was a member for 6 years and the did nothing when SBC fired me. They are so deep in bed with AT&T they pretty much agree to anything. The trend is that what ever management does the previous contract then craft will follow. They have been paying for a % of health care for a few years now. You better be happy just to keep your job at AT&T and get off that 3.00 hr raise.

[Sgt Beavis]

New press release from GM..

Looks like they are cutting 250,000 cars from production in the 1st quarter of 2009..


GM Announces Significant Production Cuts For Q1 '09

Moves In Direct Response to Rapidly Deteriorating Market Conditions

DETROIT - General Motors announced today a significant reduction of planned production for the first quarter of 2009 due to the ongoing and severe drop in industry sales, which were down 36 percent in November overall and 41 percent for GM (2007 vs. 2008). The impact of these and recently announced actions to adjust production with market demand, will result in the temporary idling of approximately 30 percent of GM's North American assembly plant volume during the first quarter of 2009 and will remove approximately 250,000 units from production.

The speed and severity of the U.S. auto market's decline has been unprecedented in recent weeks as consumers reel from the collapse of the financial markets and the resulting lack of credit for vehicle financing.

The following U.S., Canada and Mexico operations impacted by today's announcement include:

U.S.:

* Ft. Wayne (Ind.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Regular and Extended Cab
* Flint Assembly (Mich.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Heavy Duty Regular and Crew Cab & Medium Duty
* Wentzville (Mo.) - Chevy Express, GMC Savanna
* Lansing Delta Township (Mich.) - Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook
* Pontiac Assembly (Mich.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Heavy Duty Extended Cab
* Spring Hill (Tenn.) - Chevy Traverse
* Fairfax Assembly (Kan.) - Chevrolet Malibu/Hybrid, Saturn Aura/Hybrid
* Arlington Assembly (Texas) - Full Size SUVs: Chevy Suburban, Tahoe & Tahoe Hybrid, GMC Yukon, Yukon XL & Yukon Hybrid, Cadillac Escalade/Escalade ESV & Escalade Hybrid
* Lansing Grand River (Mich.) - Cadillac STS & CTS
* Orion (Mich.) - Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6
* Detroit-Hamtramck (Mich.) - Buick Lucerne, Cadillac DTS
* Shreveport (La.) - Chevy Colorado, GMC Canyon, Hummer H3 & H3T
* Bowling Green (Ky.) - Chevy Corvette, Cadillac XLR
* Wilmington (Del.) - Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky, Opel GT

Canada:

* Oshawa Consolidated - Chevy Impala
* Oshawa Truck - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Extended and Crew Cab
* CAMI - Chevy Equinox, Pontiac Torrent

Mexico:

* Silao - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Crew Cab, Chevy Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade EXT
* Ramos 2 - Chevy HHR, Saturn VUE, Chevy Captiva
* San Luis Potosi - Chevy Aveo, Pontiac G3

As a result of these assembly plant actions, GM will also continue to assess its powertrain and stamping capacity needs and make adjustments as appropriate.

[5.0_CJ]

98.4% or higher?

im going to take that avatar back. :D

[VETTKLR]

Is GM's Camaro plant still in Canada?

[Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~]

Is GM's Camaro plant still in Canada?

Yes Ashowa,Ontario

[Sean88gt]

I'm curious to see how much GM is making/losing in other countries vs. the US market.

[5.0_CJ]

I'm curious to see how much GM is making/losing in other countries vs. the US market.

doing pretty damn well in China.

[Sean88gt]

doing pretty damn well in China.
I thought I had heard their growth in other countries was fairly close to offsetting their loss here. :confused:

[5.0_CJ]

I thought I had heard their growth in other countries was fairly close to offsetting their loss here. :confused:

It still doesn't help them domestically though as far as federal liabilities and such. There are regulations on the amount of that income which can benefit their domestic counterpart.

[Sgt Beavis]

doing pretty damn well in China.

Yes, Buick is the number 2 car seller over there. They were #1 but VW took that title this year.

However car sales are suffering pretty much world wide. China sales are down a lot, as well as in Europe. I heard that South America was doing really good, but that was before the credit crunch.

In Europe, Ford is considered the best in many respects. Opal and Vauxhaul had their problems but are now making pretty awesome cars (the Opel/Vauxhaul Insignia is Europe's car of the year) However, like here in the US, sales there are off in huge numbers.

Plain and simple, NO ONE in the car business is making money right now. Not Honda, Toyota, Nissan, MB, BMW, etc, etc Only one car brand has had a positive sales gain in the last two months and that is Mini. However even there, those numbers aren't going to be enough for BMW to stay profitable if this economy keeps hitting the shitter...

[5.0_CJ]

Yes, Buick is the number 2 car seller over there. They were #1 but VW took that title this year.

However car sales are suffering pretty much world wide. China sales are down a lot, as well as in Europe. I heard that South America was doing really good, but that was before the credit crunch.

In Europe, Ford is considered the best in many respects. Opal and Vauxhaul had their problems but are now making pretty awesome cars (the Opel/Vauxhaul Insignia is Europe's car of the year) However, like here in the US, sales there are off in huge numbers.

Plain and simple, NO ONE in the car business is making money right now. Not Honda, Toyota, Nissan, MB, BMW, etc, etc Only one car brand has had a positive sales gain in the last two months and that is Mini. However even there, those numbers aren't going to be enough for BMW to stay profitable if this economy keeps hitting the shitter...

good post. Yeah, there was some news report about the Chinese and Buick over there that was really interesting. People consider Buick to be the absolute pinnacle of success over there, consider it the BMW 7 series here.

[sc281_99-0135]

good post. Yeah, there was some news report about the Chinese and Buick over there that was really interesting. People consider Buick to be the absolute pinnacle of success over there, consider it the BMW 7 series here.



cause tiger woods stars in their commericials. :D

[46Tbird]

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc67/vulture_j/pic14309.jpg

[GhostTX]

cause tiger woods stars in their commericials. :D
Not anymore. GM dropped Tiger a few weeks ago.

Unions are a relic of the past. They had their function once before there were any kind of labor laws. Now, all they do is suck money out of the employees and companies and fatten the Union bosses pockets giving really nothing in return.

Let UAW die.

[Cartman]

The CWA is worse than the UAW I know i was a member for 6 years and the did nothing when SBC fired me. They are so deep in bed with AT&T they pretty much agree to anything. The trend is that what ever management does the previous contract then craft will follow. They have been paying for a % of health care for a few years now. You better be happy just to keep your job at AT&T and get off that 3.00 hr raise.
which building did you work in? What was the reason you were fired? I am curious to know because I hate the union we have, they only fight for those they are related to or are close friends with. I know we aren't getting the true raise we should get, but I also know that we will end up paying 5 to 10% of the insurance cost, that the union says they will not give up :rolleyes: But then I am looking at this from my view point, my cost would be just over 400 a year. :D

[mikeb]

Looks like no more overtime in arlington.

[Sgt Beavis]

By the way. In case you were wondering..

Kaye Bailey Hutchinson voted NO
John Cornyn simply didn't vote at all

Among the No votes were FOUR Democrats

Among the Senators that simply didn't vote were four more Democrats:

Biden
Kennedy (He could be out because of his brain tumor)
Kerry
Wyden

[MrEd]

which building did you work in? What was the reason you were fired? I am curious to know because I hate the union we have, they only fight for those they are related to or are close friends with. I know we aren't getting the true raise we should get, but I also know that we will end up paying 5 to 10% of the insurance cost, that the union says they will not give up :rolleyes: But then I am looking at this from my view point, my cost would be just over 400 a year. :D
he would probably agree.
and so would most of the folks that have been fired by a union company.
i am a union worker.
and no, i am not pro union. but i also dont make $70hrs (including benefits)
the uaw should keep on paying the retirees and cut the wages down for the current employees or strike.
uaw members make WAY too much money

the way things are now if someone was to call a strike the uaw would be in a world of hurt.
the government could sue the uaw.
the uaw does not want that,hell uaw/companys are asking for money.
kick the uaw out, the big 3 dont need the them.
my .02

[Cartman]

he would probably agree.
and so would most of the folks that have been fired by a union company.
i am a union worker.
and no, i am not pro union. but i also dont make $70hrs (including benefits)
the uaw should keep on paying the retirees and cut the wages down for the current employees or strike.
uaw members make WAY too much money

the way things are now if someone was to call a strike the uaw would be in a world of hurt.
the government could sue the uaw.
the uaw does not want that,hell they are asking for money.
kick the uaw out, the big 3 dont need the uaw.
my .02
I don't make 70 either, with the amount of my health care cost as quoted by the union meeting we had in my building last week I am still under 60k a year total.

[gpamp]

Why are you qualified to make these statements? I have seen literally hundreds of paystubs directly from the hands of workers from toyota, honda, ford, and gm. I've looked over the W2's, I know this shit, I'm speaking from a level of confidence and understanding of the industry, not things I suspect. I don't just know the average incomes of each company, I know the averages of each position at each plant of each company. I know how much their health care deductions are bi-weekly, I understand their seniority pay brackets, etc. I'm pretty confident in saying UAW workers are overpaid and exploiting their companies.
Exaggeration.

I'm almost CERTAIN that you've never paid that much attention, as if you were waiting for this discussion in the coming years. I'm sure you're a smart kid. But a nationwide average is a nationwide average. I doubt that you hold the key to understanding it beyond the statistics. It sure makes it easy for you to argue it. But making up facts or new averages doesn't make you correct.

[VETTKLR]

Exaggeration.

I'm almost CERTAIN that you've never paid that much attention, as if you were waiting for this discussion in the coming years. I'm sure you're a smart kid. But a nationwide average is a nationwide average. I doubt that you hold the key to understanding it beyond the statistics. It sure makes it easy for you to argue it. But making up facts or new averages doesn't make you correct.

And yet if one of barack obama's squirrels was the one testifying the exact same thing that 5.0_CJ posted, you'd think it was the gospel.

Not that it's breaking news or anything. 99.95% of us realize you're ate up with the dumbass.

just sayin, that's all.


I doubt that you hold the key to understanding it beyond the statistics.
:D greatness

[DON SVO]

Look, you ignorant pussy, I was throwing the simple hourly wage numbers.

The chart up there that says UAW members get 70+ and hour, and private sector workers get 23 is a horrible mis-statement. The $70/hr is with the benefit package figured in, where the $23/hr is not.

GM PAYS OVER 70 AN HOUR WITH BENEFITS! THAT IS THE ACTUAL DOLLAR AMOUNT PAID!!!

And GM pays that benefit package, you dumbass! Goddamn you are such a fucking retard. I cannot even express how much your ignorance infuriates me! There is no one on this board currently that irritates me nearly as much as you do, Gpamp.

On another note, I took a gander at your band's myspace: it dawned on me that I have seen your band in the past. I am glad that they turn up the guitar like most bands, and I never heard your fucking bass lines.

[5.0_CJ]

Exaggeration.

I'm almost CERTAIN that you've never paid that much attention, as if you were waiting for this discussion in the coming years. I'm sure you're a smart kid. But a nationwide average is a nationwide average. I doubt that you hold the key to understanding it beyond the statistics. It sure makes it easy for you to argue it. But making up facts or new averages doesn't make you correct.

I had the discussion regularly with my sales reps and my coworkers about how ridiculous the pay is compared to the foreign manufacturers - it was my primary topic of discussion for my region and I paid quite a bit of attention to the hourly wages. The reason you find me so compassionate about this topic is because it is something I was directly involved in. All I can speak for is Michigan, where many foreign manufacturers and all the major domestic manufacturers are located, and from that I speak from enough experience to say anyone person working for a foreign manufacturer would only dream they could work for Ford, or GM.

We've arrived at a conclusion which essentially is you stating "Despite your real world experience with this, I trust the shit I read on the internet more"

And if that's the case, go right about you're business, I can't change your opinion.

[DON SVO]

I had the discussion regularly with my sales reps and my coworkers about how ridiculous the pay is compared to the foreign manufacturers - it was my primary topic of discussion for my region and I paid quite a bit of attention to the hourly wages. The reason you find me so compassionate about this topic is because it is something I was directly involved in. All I can speak for is Michigan, where many foreign manufacturers and all the major domestic manufacturers are located, and from that I speak from enough experience to say anyone person working for a foreign manufacturer would only dream they could work for Ford, or GM.

We've arrived at a conclusion which essentially is you stating "Despite your real world experience with this, I trust the shit I read on the internet more"

And if that's the case, go right about you're business, I can't change your opinion.
Get that factual shit outta here! The man said that GM averages $28 and Toyota averages $25! It's only $3!!! :rolleyes:

I swear to Christ Gpamp, it drives me bonkers knowing there are others out there as narrow-minded and insolent as you.

[5.0_CJ]

Get that factual shit outta here! The man said that GM averages $28 and Toyota averages $25! It's only $3!!! :rolleyes:

I swear to Christ Gpamp, it drives me bonkers knowing there are others out there as narrow-minded and insolent as you.
3 dollars an hour more is


3 x 2080 = $6,240 more annually. Taking Gpamp's facts that I haven't seen evidence of, this is still a pretty substantial difference in wage for the same position. As I've said before I've seen hundreds of pay stubs between the companies and UAW employees make a *lot* more money than their foreign manufacturer counterparts. I remember financing a Toyota employee, who was a "parts picker" and he made $14.00/hr with 3yr job time. That wage doesn't even exist at Ford, at all. A parts picker at ford, 2.4 year job time, same exact position mind you and less job time, made 26/hr. That's one of the examples I use to show my coworkers for why they are in such a pickle.

I'd like to see that article and national average you keep referencing, I've seen enough of these wages to know there must an explanation.

[gpamp]

GM PAYS OVER 70 AN HOUR WITH BENEFITS! THAT IS THE ACTUAL DOLLAR AMOUNT PAID!!!

And GM pays that benefit package, you dumbass! Goddamn you are such a fucking retard. I cannot even express how much your ignorance infuriates me! There is no one on this board currently that irritates me nearly as much as you do, Gpamp.

On another note, I took a gander at your band's myspace: it dawned on me that I have seen your band in the past. I am glad that they turn up the guitar like most bands, and I never heard your fucking bass lines.
Look, fucktard. If you read, you'll understand that I was arguing the post that said UAW makes $70, and non-UAW makes $25. Obviously skewing the facts using the benefits on the UAW, but ignoring any outside costs on the non-UAW.

Comp-re-hension.

[gpamp]

We've arrived at a conclusion which essentially is you stating "Despite your real world experience with this, I trust the shit I read on the internet more"

And if that's the case, go right about you're business, I can't change your opinion.
Actually, I'm questioning the authority of which you speak on the issue, based on the "real experience" you have. I'm sure you worked in finance. But I don't think you were the auto finance czar over 90% of the auto workers in America. (which would probably give you more authority on the matter)

[blownragtop]

Pampers,

Here’s an article that shows how the UAW and its Democrat lackeys have destroyed the US auto industry. In it, Steve Miller, who saw Delphi through its bankruptcy proceedings, details some of the excesses of the 'entitlement-wage culture’.

I don’t expect you to read all of this – or understand any of it – so I’ll put the more salient points in bold.

(This article is dated November, 2005 – since then an agreement creating a new class of ‘non-core workers’ has been created with reduced wages and benefits to handle the mundane tasks of mowing grass and scrubbing toilets. If nothing else this piece helps illustrate how the Big 3 got into their present state.)


Massive job cuts at General Motors, America's largest carmaker — coupled with the bankruptcy of Delphi, America's biggest autoparts maker — have provoked predictable handwringing from liberal pundits who worry that America is "losing its manufacturing base." But the wrenching change now buffeting the auto industry defies the usual press formulas. Just listen to Steve Miller a turnaround specialist who is steering Delphi's restructuring process. He exploded the myth of America's "endangered" union manufacturing jobs at his October press conference announcing Delphi's move into Chapter 11: "We cannot continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass and remain competitive."

Grass cutting is a manufacturing job?

Miller's frank assessment of unsustainable labor contracts is a refreshing dose of candor in an industry that for too long has talked around union-labor costs in a way that is totally divorced from the realities of the U.S. labor market — much less the global labor market.

While America's national press has gleefully covered the front-office shenanigans of Republican fat cats like Enron's Ken Lay, it has entirely missed the disease eating away at the roots of American manufacturing: Behind the threat of strike, greedy Democratic union bosses have built an unsustainable entitlement-wage culture that is now crashing spectacularly in America's heartland, disrupting lives, and threatening some of America's biggest publicly traded companies.

Take grass cutting. As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour ($60,000 a year) plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour.

But at least the grass cutters are working for their pay. The UAW contract also guarantees that 12,000 autoworkers get full wage for doing nothing. On the heels of Miller's straight-talk, the Detroit News reported that "12,000 American autoworkers, instead of bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank." These aren't jobs. And they certainly aren't being "lost" to China.

"We just go in (to Ford's Michigan Truck Plant) and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," The News quoted one UAW worker as saying. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

For Delphi, this idled labor cost $400 million in the second quarter of this year alone. Facing similar numbers until the contract's end in 2007, Delphi took refuge in bankruptcy. "The jobs bank must be eliminated," says Miller. "Paying people not to work is just not sustainable."

As the auto companies have increased productivity through automation, the UAW calculated that jobs banks would make it too expensive for automakers to close plants and lay off workers. While that plan has worked, it has severely damaged the long-term viability of the industry — and by extension, future job creation. It also led to this week's GM bloodbath, as the company struggles to close a wage gap with American internationals (foreign automakers manufacturing in the U.S.) that now stands at $1319 per vehicle produced.

Simply put, Big Three autoworkers have been living in a fantasy world.

Statistics tell the tale. In his landmark study of the 2003 Big Five contract, Sean McLinden of the Center for Automotive Research (CAR) found that "in 1960, the UAW was 16 percent higher than the overall U.S. wage rate. . . . By 2003, the UAW average rate (with COLA) was 68-percent higher than the average manufacturing rate of $15.74 an hour."

McLinden notes that the contract reads as if autoworkers labor in a vacuum, without regard for market forces. "The workers involved will not lose their jobs at the company — they must be transferred to other facilities, bought out, voluntarily retired, or supported by protected status programs (jobs banks). Workers who refuse to transfer after layoff will... eventually be paid 100 percent of their straight pay. Indeed, UAW employment can only fall at the rate of natural retirement."

Furthermore, UAW members are guaranteed a traditional "30 years and out" provision, meaning that many retirees begin drawing full pensions in their early Fifties, burdening the Big Five with unrivaled legacy costs. Delphi, for example, shoulders $22 per worker-hour in legacy costs compared to as little as 25 cents for independent competitors like Leer and Johnson Controls.

Miller stresses that Delphi's competition for these jobs are not foreign laborers in China or Mexico — but workers right here in the Unites States. Given the huge productivity advantages of U.S. factories, relatively high-paid American autoworkers remain competitive with Mexican workers paid $3 an hour. CAR's McLinden confirms this. His analysis of independent suppliers (workers not covered by the fat Big Five contract) covering 19,379 UAW members in the U.S. found an "average wage of $15.76 an hour — remarkably close to the $15.77 per hour U.S. average manufacturing wage in 2003."

Miller does not deny that some labor-intensive auto-parts jobs (such as spark plugs manufacturing) must be moved abroad. But in production, where assembly, transportation, or quality are key factors (in the making of dashboards, for example), manufacturers will rely on U.S. workers — assuming they don't cost two to four times the market rate. Indeed, Japanese manufacturers and their suppliers have created 60,000 good-paying jobs for Americans.

The coming months will be painful for many American autoworkers. Accustomed to a certain lifestyle, they will see their wages cut in half, jeopardizing second homes, college tuitions, and car payments. One blue-collar Delphi worker interviewed by the Detroit News makes $103,000 a year operating a forklift and fears the consequences if his pay is drastically reduced. But many Americans will ask how a forklift operator felt entitled to a six-figure income in the first place (according to Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average forklift operator wage in the U.S. is $26,000).

It is an opportune time for political leadership to step to the plate and speak with candor, but the signs are not encouraging.

UAW leaders are threatening strikes, and their Democratic allies are parroting tired slogans of government bailouts and trade protectionism. Michigan's Democratic governor Jennifer Granholm recently traveled to Washington, D.C. to stump for auto-import tariffs, while Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton demanded President Bush convene a "manufacturing summit" to examine a taxpayer bailout for the Big Five's "enormous legacy costs, including paying the health care and pensions of retirees."

These dinosaurs insist on turning back the clock, but Steve Miller understands that America's manufacturing future will only be lost if it loses sight of market economics: "We are in a market for human capital," he explains "If you pay too much for a particular class of employee, you go broke."


http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/payne200511290819.asp

[blownragtop]

Look, fucktard. If you read, you'll understand that I was arguing the post that said UAW makes $70, and non-UAW makes $25. Obviously skewing the facts using the benefits on the UAW, but ignoring any outside costs on the non-UAW.

Comp-re-hension.


Wrong again…

The chart is right…

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/images/wm2162_chart1.gif

If you refer to the article above it says:
“By 2003, the UAW average rate (with COLA) was 68-percent higher than the average manufacturing rate of $15.74 an hour."

So the average production worker makes 15.74 an hour.
Average UAW production worker makes 26.44 an hour.

Factor in benefits, shift differentials, overtime, ect…..

Average production worker makes 25.36 an hour.
Average UAW production worker makes 73.26 an hour.

What part of this do you not understand?

[5.0_CJ]

Actually, I'm questioning the authority of which you speak on the issue, based on the "real experience" you have. I'm sure you worked in finance. But I don't think you were the auto finance czar over 90% of the auto workers in America. (which would probably give you more authority on the matter)

You have jack shit son! You know absolutely nothing more than your ideals, and the websites you don't post the prove it! I've said I've seen hundreds of paystubs, that's where my proof comes from, yours isn't anymore than than rhetoric and insults.

Here is your argument:

"I don't know shit, but I know you're wrong even though I have absolutely no way to prove it."



I have to be honest, your ignorance knows no bounds gpamp, you've shown nothing, you have nothing, and you continue to pander nothing but troll on these forums. You're a man absence of fact and reasoning, and full of misguided hateful rhetoric. You are a living, breathing baseless propaganda machine. You understand nothing but your political ideals and ignore everything else.

I can't even remember a single thread that you even made a legitimate point using factual data, you just take personal jabs and people until you get them pissed and then swing dicks around until you bail and start a new troll thread.

Did I miss anything with that?

[DON SVO]

Look, fucktard. If you read, you'll understand that I was arguing the post that said UAW makes $70, and non-UAW makes $25. Obviously skewing the facts using the benefits on the UAW, but ignoring any outside costs on the non-UAW.

Comp-re-hension.
You stupid son of a bitch...

Little problem: $25 flat wage vs. $28 flat wage

HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM: $40 TOTAL PAID W/BENEFITS VS. $70+ PAID WITH BENEFITS

Again, you're being a narrow-minded cock-knocker.

[ThreeFingerPete]

Gpamp makes me want to kill.

[jyro]

Gpamp makes me want to kill.
I'd be afraid to post a schedule of where I'm going to be for fear of someone that thinks I'm so stupid that I should have my ass kicked might show up.
When: Saturday, Dec. 13, 9 p.m.
Where: Club Dada, 2720 Elm Street, Dallas


http://www.pegasusnews.com/bands/hendrick/

[ThreeFingerPete]

I'd be afraid to post a schedule of where I'm going to be for fear of someone that thinks I'm so stupid that I should have my ass kicked might show up.
When: Saturday, Dec. 13, 9 p.m.
Where: Club Dada, 2720 Elm Street, Dallas


http://www.pegasusnews.com/bands/hendrick/

LMGDAO! Well done! I think this problem (gpamp) will be one of those that eventually solves itself.

[gpamp]

:rolleyes:

That'd be a great idea. Go to jail because you couldn't articulate yourself out of a paper bag, so you just start throwing punches? CJ can handle himself. Just as he questions my sources, I question his. It's debate.

And blownragtop, your chart comes from the Heritage foundation. A conservative think-tank. It's the right-wing version of moveon.org. I'm sure it wouldn't be skewed at ALL.

[Gripenfelter]

Sources? He's never had sources before, so why would he now? :rolleyes:
I think GM's bigger issue with the union, is the retirement pensions they pay out. Some of these guys (I know 3), retired at 48-50 after 30 years, and still draw 80% of their pay! How many of those guys are out there? That is a major difference between GM and Toyota, Honda, etc.

How is that any different than what our politicians get? Or the military? or CEO/CFO/boards members/upper management of large companies?

[DON SVO]

:rolleyes:

That'd be a great idea. Go to jail because you couldn't articulate yourself out of a paper bag, so you just start throwing punches? CJ can handle himself. Just as he questions my sources, I question his. It's debate.

And blownragtop, your chart comes from the Heritage foundation. A conservative think-tank. It's the right-wing version of moveon.org. I'm sure it wouldn't be skewed at ALL.

There is nothing political about factual numbers. Everyone has known for some time that UAW workers, with benefits, are a huge drain. Now things are coming to a head.

I personally think you drink a shot of antifreeze with breakfast every morning.

[ThreeFingerPete]

:rolleyes:

That'd be a great idea. Go to jail because you couldn't articulate yourself out of a paper bag, so you just start throwing punches? CJ can handle himself. Just as he questions my sources, I question his. It's debate.

And blownragtop, your chart comes from the Heritage foundation. A conservative think-tank. It's the right-wing version of moveon.org. I'm sure it wouldn't be skewed at ALL.

I don't care to argue with someone who will blindly follow wherever his Icon leads. If you're not smart enough to question your sources, I'm not willing to engage you in a conversation.

[forever_frost]

How is that any different than what our politicians get? Or the military? or CEO/CFO/boards members/upper management of large companies?
You're comparing what us soldiers get in retirement to the UAW? What the hell? Last time I checked, I did something more important than tighten lug nuts

[Vertnut]

How is that any different than what our politicians get? Or the military? or CEO/CFO/boards members/upper management of large companies?
While folks are in the military, they hardly make the money of a UAW member, and the last time I checked, they weren't "ducking hostile fire" at the GM plant in Arlington. :cool:

[forever_frost]

Exactly. We get crap pay and once we're out, we pay for our own medical insurance. I'm 100% disabled and still have to pay out about 130 bucks a month for Medicare Part B and Tricare Prime. And we pay in to everything as a soldier. Last I checked, the UAW didn't

[Vertnut]

Exactly. We get crap pay and once we're out, we pay for our own medical insurance. I'm 100% disabled and still have to pay out about 130 bucks a month for Medicare Part B and Tricare Prime. And we pay in to everything as a soldier. Last I checked, the UAW didn't
Thanks for your service! We have got to take care of our Vets, especially those hurt in the field.

[Gripenfelter]

While folks are in the military, they hardly make the money of a UAW member, and the last time I checked, they weren't "ducking hostile fire" at the GM plant in Arlington. :cool:

I wasn't comparing what they do....way to duck the question, like always.

Soldiers aren't always at war, but that's beside the point. I never said they didn't deserve it, which they do.

You can't bash auto workers for their benefits, when there are several other lines of work that receive the same.

So let's leave soldiers out of this. What about politicians, upper management, etc?

I can't stand unions, which I was a member of the steel workers, but to bash what they have is almost jealousy.

Yes their wages are a part of the big 3 problems, but so is there management. You want to blame someone, blame management. They know what there labor costs are, they budget every year for them.

Sorry I can't blame the everyday workers for doing what they can to get ahead. It's not like corporations look after there employees anyway.

[Mr Majestyk]

:rolleyes:

That'd be a great idea. Go to jail because you couldn't articulate yourself out of a paper bag, so you just start throwing punches? CJ can handle himself. Just as he questions my sources, I question his. It's debate.

And blownragtop, your chart comes from the Heritage foundation. A conservative think-tank. It's the right-wing version of moveon.org. I'm sure it wouldn't be skewed at ALL.

The only thing that's not debatable is the fact that you're a stupid cunt.

[Somewhere in Time]

Screw'em all, let them sink there own ship.

x2

[forever_frost]

I wasn't comparing what they do....way to duck the question, like always.

Soldiers aren't always at war, but that's beside the point. I never said they didn't deserve it, which they do.

You can't bash auto workers for their benefits, when there are several other lines of work that receive the same.

So let's leave soldiers out of this. What about politicians, upper management, etc?

I can't stand unions, which I was a member of the steel workers, but to bash what they have is almost jealousy.

Yes their wages are a part of the big 3 problems, but so is there management. You want to blame someone, blame management. They know what there labor costs are, they budget every year for them.

Sorry I can't blame the everyday workers for doing what they can to get ahead. It's not like corporations look after there employees anyway.


Or...we could blame management AND the UAW. I believe that is an option as well.

[exlude]

I wasn't comparing what they do....way to duck the question, like always.

Soldiers aren't always at war, but that's beside the point. I never said they didn't deserve it, which they do.

You can't bash auto workers for their benefits, when there are several other lines of work that receive the same.

So let's leave soldiers out of this. What about politicians, upper management, etc?

I can't stand unions, which I was a member of the steel workers, but to bash what they have is almost jealousy.

Yes their wages are a part of the big 3 problems, but so is there management. You want to blame someone, blame management. They know what there labor costs are, they budget every year for them.

Sorry I can't blame the everyday workers for doing what they can to get ahead. It's not like corporations look after there employees anyway.

I agree on that point. Yes, the UAW is a HUGE drain on the company. Focus needs to be made there AS WELL as some other, non-union employees: CEOs/CFOs/etc. Their wages are usually absolutely ridiculous and not compliant to the prosper of the company. If they want their company to succeed and they want their employees to take pay cuts, they are going to need to take some cuts too.

[exlude]

Or...we could blame management AND the UAW. I believe that is an option as well.

Damn, shoulda read the whole thread :p

[forever_frost]

I have been reading. I'm heavily medicated on painkillers at the moment but it seems that Gripenfelter wants to lay all the fault at the feet of the management and doesn't see the UAW's leech personality stuck to the jugular of the companies at any fault for them foundering.

[TFRAZIERD7]

If you ask me I think the military should get a huge pay raise. I am exmilitary and loved every minute of my duty and would go back in a heartbeat. But you have to look at it this way if you have people fighting for your freedom, I would rather pay them like the Union workers get paid. Like said above they do more than tighten lug nuts up. They save yours and my life everyday. And to add to it the wives and children of the men serving whether state side or over seas endure alot too. That is something else you need to look at. Thank ya'll for your service and keeping this country free.

[8mpg]

I wasn't comparing what they do....way to duck the question, like always.

Soldiers aren't always at war, but that's beside the point. I never said they didn't deserve it, which they do.

You can't bash auto workers for their benefits, when there are several other lines of work that receive the same.

So let's leave soldiers out of this. What about politicians, upper management, etc?

I can't stand unions, which I was a member of the steel workers, but to bash what they have is almost jealousy.

Yes their wages are a part of the big 3 problems, but so is there management. You want to blame someone, blame management. They know what there labor costs are, they budget every year for them.

Sorry I can't blame the everyday workers for doing what they can to get ahead. It's not like corporations look after there employees anyway.

Im still blaming the UAW... Let's look at it this way...

The UAW is made up of MOST of the employees in the manufacturing side. GM was profitable in the past and could offer over zealous benefits packages. This was way back when. Over the years, the UAW has grown and formed a union in which they can shut down a company with a strike. The group has become a mob and has the ability to hold the company hostage. The UAW bands together and makes demands. GM/Ford/Chrysler doesnt really have much of a choice but to negotiate with them and try to get out with a further raping of wages and benefits. If they dont, the union will strike, forcing the factories to shut down and the company will lose money. The union has grown a huge set of balls over the years demanding more and more and wanting to do less and less. The big 3 have no choice but to put up with the demands, they cannot afford to lose all their workers at once.

The higher ups have a monstrosity of a salary but that is not the problem. Cut your labor costs by 1/3 and you might have a profitable company. Get your pensions down to where they should have been and you will be profitable. They cannot afford to shut down for too long. GM should have dumped the UAW contracts last time around and held out for a while. Those worthless employees would come crawling back after a couple months of starvation. That or do the inevitable and outsource. Screw all the UAW employees and send their jobs to Mexico and China...then you have real profitability.

The UAW takes their wages/benefits/jobs for granted. They need to open their eyes.

[exlude]

Cut your excessive salaries by 1/6 and you might have a profitable company. I don't see how you can blame one but not the other.

[Vertnut]

I wasn't comparing what they do....way to duck the question, like always.

Soldiers aren't always at war, but that's beside the point. I never said they didn't deserve it, which they do.

You can't bash auto workers for their benefits, when there are several other lines of work that receive the same.

So let's leave soldiers out of this. What about politicians, upper management, etc?

I can't stand unions, which I was a member of the steel workers, but to bash what they have is almost jealousy.

Yes their wages are a part of the big 3 problems, but so is there management. You want to blame someone, blame management. They know what there labor costs are, they budget every year for them.

Sorry I can't blame the everyday workers for doing what they can to get ahead. It's not like corporations look after there employees anyway.
Show me where I've "ducked" a question, you knucklehead. :cool:

[Gripenfelter]

Show me where I've "ducked" a question, you knucklehead. :cool:

I asked how UAW retirements benefits, using your example of getting 80% of their pay for 30 years of service, is any different than politicians, upper management, and similar benefits offered in other sectors?

What I'm getting at is this, if you want to bash them for their retirement packages, then you need to bash politicians for theirs.

At least the UAW work a tad more than politicians for their retirement and pay. :D

[Bubbaearl]

yep, the union really helped the steel industry didn't it . just like the textile union helped. there's no work in this country because industry is damn tired of morons telling them how to run their business . i'm for fair wages but unions are useless in todays business world. we have labor laws now. i can weather a pretty bad storm as long as there is no uaw when it's over. let them get real jobs for a change. they have shown their real colors, they could give a shit less about the country or our economy. with them it's always me , me , me . screw'em .

[98COBRA#770]

I think that over the next 2 years WE WILL all be lucky to have a job.

I have 2 son's that work for dealerships so I am worried about this one is a ASE
cert wrench turner the other's still in highschool and is just a porter but still good pay for his age.


The car market (American wise) is due for revamping but too just shut the doors
now we are screwing our selfs IMO.

We need new blood at the top and right on down.

Shit I guess Sidney ain't so bad I could relocate there what the market like over there?

[Bubbaearl]

if gm closes it's doors it will simply be replaced by someone else . their market share has to go to someone. hopefully someone with enough balls to tell the uaw where to go. you can not pay wages like that and compete . same old story , the union will kill the cow and whine for more milk as always. :(

[forever_frost]

I don't see the UAW moving to Saturn or Toyota or Nissan. They'll look at the Big 3 and shake their heads. Sorry UAW, you fucked yourselves. Welcome to the real free market.

[Sgt Beavis]

I don't see the UAW moving to Saturn or Toyota or Nissan. They'll look at the Big 3 and shake their heads. Sorry UAW, you fucked yourselves. Welcome to the real free market.

Saturn is GM and has UAW workers.

[Vertnut]

I asked how UAW retirements benefits, using your example of getting 80% of their pay for 30 years of service, is any different than politicians, upper management, and similar benefits offered in other sectors?

What I'm getting at is this, if you want to bash them for their retirement packages, then you need to bash politicians for theirs.

At least the UAW work a tad more than politicians for their retirement and pay. :D
Hey, I don't agree with ANY of the damn politicians, but they set the rules, and there's not a helluva lot we can do about them. They set there own pay-raises and benefits, and they rarely vote it down. ;)