Has there ever been a time......

[musbrad2]

Guys, this is a serious question, I'm only 25 so I havent been around long enough to know what politics were like in the 50's, 60's and 70's or later and history has never been my greatest subject. In your time has there ever been an election in which we've been truly afraid of what would happen if a particualar Democrat were to get into office? I mean I work in the natural gas field and right now its in a slump will probably get worse if Obama gets in, I also worry about our defense etc with obama in office.....

Before you hard core dem's call me a racist hillbilly, redneck, or other, I'm as much for a hispanic, black, blue, green, whatever to do good and move up in the world....I'm just wondering how someone who reminds me of a slimy used car salesman(no offense car guys) is elegible to possibly become the leader of our nation.

rant/question OFF

thanks for any imput

[Mr Majestyk]

Jimmy Carter comes to mind as a pathetic weakling, just like Obama, when he ran for re-election against Ronald Reagan.

On another note when George Wallace ran as an Independent against Richard Nixon (Republican) and Hubert Humphrey (Democrat), it didn't take a rocket scientist to realize he was totally unfit to be President by virtue of his openly segregationist past.

[BreedLove]

carter, hoover.

[JP135]

Dukakis, Mondale, Clinton, Gore all come to mind.

[Fast.0]

im young to and wondering the same thing, I also dont keep up with news that much because now days its all bad but I can say "can things get any fucking worse"

[musbrad2]

Cool, I was just wondering, the older I get the more I see how much all this does matter to me, rather than when i was in high school and just trying to make a grade. Ignorance was bliss....unfortunatly to many people in high school and some people my age I know, have yet to get with the picture and pay attention to whats going on in the world

[White trash wagon]

carter, hoover.

Herbert Hoover was a Republican.

[mikeb]

Carter was horrible. We had mortgage rates > 20%, gas rationing, 55 mph speed limits, and billy beer.

Unfortunately, the younger voters have no memory of carter and are about to repeat the same mistake with obama. The older voters know better.

[Fox466]

Once again Mike B nails it...


But at least another generation will have learned a lesson. Albeit at the expense of our nation... :(

[mikeb]

Once again Mike B nails it...


But at least another generation will have learned a lesson. Albeit at the expense of our nation... :(

Well, it took a carter to get a reagan, so maybe there is hope.

[Sean88gt]

Well, it took a carter to get a reagan, so maybe there is hope.
The biggest problem will be Obama putting younger socialist in court positions, cabinet positions, etc and it'll take us 25-40 years to dig out of this mess. Unless we have massive sweeping reform and chase his crooks out after he's removed from office.

[mutherjuggz]

"can things get any fucking worse"


Things could ALWAYS get worse. Granted, we're not in good shape, but things are far from being as bad as they've once been. The national debt is out-fucking-ragious, but things as a whole aren't near as bad as they could be.

[ceyko]

yup. We all still have the luxury of an internet connection and posting on DFWS...etc.

[bullet]

The national debt is out-fucking-ragious, but things as a whole aren't near as bad as they could be.




Interesting that on the move from 1 to 12 trillion since 1980, only 2 trillion of the 11 trillion dollar increase came under a democratic president. Cutting taxes while increasing spending sounds likes a great plan to me, that's why I am voting republican.

[black01gt]

Guys, this is a serious question, I'm only 25 so I havent been around long enough to know what politics were like in the 50's, 60's and 70's or later and history has never been my greatest subject. In your time has there ever been an election in which we've been truly afraid of what would happen if a particualar Democrat were to get into office? I mean I work in the natural gas field and right now its in a slump will probably get worse if Obama gets in, I also worry about our defense etc with obama in office.....

Before you hard core dem's call me a racist hillbilly, redneck, or other, I'm as much for a hispanic, black, blue, green, whatever to do good and move up in the world....I'm just wondering how someone who reminds me of a slimy used car salesman(no offense car guys) is elegible to possibly become the leader of our nation.

rant/question OFF

thanks for any imput
Is that you Jeff Gannon? It is isn't it? I knew it!!!

Anyway, where else is Rush and O'Reilly gonna get a job?

But seriously, if we can survive the last 8 years (and I'm not convinced that we have?), we can survive anything.

ooooo!!! The sky is falling. :rolleyes:

[Vertnut]

Is that you Jeff Gannon? It is isn't it? I knew it!!!

Anyway, where else is Rush and O'Reilly gonna get a job?

But seriously, if we can survive the last 8 years (and I'm not convinced that we have?), we can survive anything.

ooooo!!! The sky is falling. :rolleyes:
You're not even voting, dickhead. ;)


To answer the OP's question, I was not yet able to vote in '76 (born in '60), and I really don't think folks really knew what to expect from Carter. Remember, we had Nixon until '75, then Ford took over after "Watergate". The country wanted something different. Carter was soft-spoken, likeable, inexperienced, and weak on foreign policy. Sound familiar?
In this day and age, our enemies see exactly what we see in our candidates. They listen to every remark made on radio, TV, and the internet. They know more (and perceive better) about our candidates than most Americans do.

From my experience, once they are in office, none of these guys are as bad as we think or as good as we think. The country will make it fine. I don't see a great 4 years either way, but I can see it being substantially worse going with Barry.
The economy is on everyone's mind right now, and that's how folks will vote. But, what if, in 6 months, as Biden has suggested, a muslim extremist suicide bomber, walks into an elementary school and sets himself off? The economy will mean nothing, just like it did following 9/11. If we aren't safe here at home, a good economy means nothing. Americans are reactive and fickle, and don't use history as a guide...it's all about the present.

[Bubbaearl]

once russia gets a millitary base in south america how long do you think it will take to get rid of it ? stop worrying about the economy and worry about your security . the problems with iran rest squarely at jimmy carters feet . i dont think obama has the balls for a bay of pigs .

[Vertnut]

once russia gets a millitary base in south america how long do you think it will take to get rid of it ? stop worrying about the economy and worry about your security . the problems with iran rest squarely at jimmy carters feet . i dont think obama has the balls for a bay of pigs .
Bubba, I think you're dead on. When Barry takes office, the economy will have a "miraculous turn-around", almost over night, due to the press and congressional leaders declaring it. :rolleyes: Just one event involving national security is all it will take for the American voter's to experience "buyer's remorse". At that point, it will be too late... :(

[ceyko]

Is it me or do these candidates avoid the OTHER major issues a lot?

1. The 2 major areas of conflict we have troops deployed to.
2. Border security. (As I stated a million times this is about more than Mexicans coming over for work)
3. Port security.

Those are some major things on my mind and it pisses me off that NO CANDIDATES have the balls to commit to our security. Border security could be as cheap or expensive as we want it to be. I've seen several 3rd world/piss poor countries with border security that should make Americans feel ashamed.

Right now the "voters" are bouncing around like ping pong balls. Great! Maybe Obama is a better choice for the economy. WTF good is that going to do if terrorists start destroying major infrastructure, financial or other HUGE areas within the US border? None. Not a fucking thing.

This will happen w/o solid border security. Count on it. Now if...when. Rinse, repeat until politicians and the American people get their heads out their asses and realize it HAS to happen for better or worst.

Take care,

[RiceStang]

I propose Texas secedes from the Union once Obama is elected.

Then, we build a wall around our nation to keep the Americans and Mexicans out.

Then, once that's done, we invade the United States, starting with the bombing of Washington DC.

Long live the Republic of Texas!

:D

[Vertnut]

Is it me or do these candidates avoid the OTHER major issues a lot?

1. The 2 major areas of conflict we have troops deployed to.
2. Border security. (As I stated a million times this is about more than Mexicans coming over for work)
3. Port security.

Those are some major things on my mind and it pisses me off that NO CANDIDATES have the balls to commit to our security. Border security could be as cheap or expensive as we want it to be. I've seen several 3rd world/piss poor countries with border security that should make Americans feel ashamed.

Right now the "voters" are bouncing around like ping pong balls. Great! Maybe Obama is a better choice for the economy. WTF good is that going to do if terrorists start destroying major infrastructure, financial or other HUGE areas within the US border? None. Not a fucking thing.

This will happen w/o solid border security. Count on it. Now if...when. Rinse, repeat until politicians and the American people get their heads out their asses and realize it HAS to happen for better or worst.

Take care,
I find it interesting that Barry's campaign focuses on domestic issues almost exclusively. It's all about talking points, and Americans only being able to focus on one thing at a time. At this point in time, it's the economy. As you stated, the economy will take a backseat the second we are attacked by any sort of terroristic entity. Without our security and sovereignity, we don't have an economy...

[Vertnut]

I propose Texas secedes from the Union once Obama is elected.

Then, we build a wall around our nation to keep the Americans and Mexicans out.

Then, once that's done, we invade the United States, starting with the bombing of Washington DC.

Long live the Republic of Texas!

:D
Ha! We have most of the gas, oil, and hot women. Why not? ;)

I remember all the "Texas secede" bumper stickers during the '70's, and some folks were pretty damn serious about it. :o

[Mr Majestyk]

once russia gets a millitary base in south america how long do you think it will take to get rid of it ? stop worrying about the economy and worry about your security . the problems with iran rest squarely at jimmy carters feet . i dont think obama has the balls for a bay of pigs .

Decades at a minimum, if ever. The only reason the defacto Russian military base known as Cuba closed down was because of the economic collapse of the former Soviet Union. With newfound oil wealth and a resugent nationalism, a similar economic collapse of Russia is unlikely anytime soon.

[ceyko]

I find it interesting that Barry's campaign focuses on domestic issues almost exclusively. It's all about talking points, and Americans only being able to focus on one thing at a time. At this point in time, it's the economy. As you stated, the economy will take a backseat the second we are attacked by any sort of terroristic entity. Without our security and sovereignity, we don't have an economy...

Yeah and even people I talk to (smart, common sense people for the most part) agree...but are selfish to the point of not caring and just wanting the economy fixed. I feel if we put the country first our wallets/bank accounts may suffer but will do better over the long run.

Right now the American population/general population (Illegals..etc)/politicians are pretty much just going to leech the country into a pathetic state of existence.

[90GT50]

I propose Texas secedes from the Union once Obama is elected.

Then, we build a wall around our nation to keep the Americans and Mexicans out.

Then, once that's done, we invade the United States, starting with the bombing of Washington DC.

Long live the Republic of Texas!

:DBest idea so far.

[black01gt]

You're not even voting, dickhead. ;)


I've had a turnaround. I've flip flopped. I'm voting for Kinky Friedman by God!!!

"Republic of Texas". I like that! "Screw you. We're from Texas." Mess with us and these Mexicans will kick yer ass!!! :D

[AL P]

Interesting that on the move from 1 to 12 trillion since 1980, only 2 trillion of the 11 trillion dollar increase came under a democratic president. Cutting taxes while increasing spending sounds likes a great plan to me, that's why I am voting republican.

I love how you think the president creates the economy. I guess he pulls it out of his ass. Are you high?

[HOOCBB]

I propose Texas secedes from the Union once Obama is elected.

Then, we build a wall around our nation to keep the Americans and Mexicans out.

Then, once that's done, we invade the United States, starting with the bombing of Washington DC.

Long live the Republic of Texas!

:D

You know, Texas is the ONLY state could economicaly and militarily support itself. About the only thing we don't have is tobacco...I guess we could start growing it in East Texas somewhere...

[HOOCBB]

I love how you think the president creates the economy. I guess he pulls it out of his ass. Are you high?

The thing about Clinton is that his budget didn't spend hardly any money on defense. In fact, he cut defense spending which is why the debt only grew that 2 trillion dollars.

That said, the economy is not directly correlated to the federal debt...

If you really want to get down to brass tacks, Klinton's signing of NAFTA actually HURT our economy by sending jobs and manufacturing to Mexico and Canada where labor is cheaper. It has caused job loss stateside and lowered the amount of money brought in from exports.

[Mr Majestyk]

We should perhaps rename I-35 through Texas the Klinton Highway in honor of his NAFTA agreement. Then every time our progress through Austin/San Antonio is hindered by the ubiquitous Messican trucks we'll fondly remember slick Willie.

[bullet]

I love how you think the president creates the economy. I guess he pulls it out of his ass. Are you high?



I am only pointing out facts. You can choose to remain close minded or maybe you can tell us all why nearly every republican president has suffered a recession under their presidency while they rarely happen when a democrat is in power. Or maybe why did the great depression happen under a republican while the longest economic expansion in U.S history was under a democrat. You have been trying to convince me that republicans investing and creating jobs is best for the economy but the facts do not show it. Just pure luck or is there no argument against the TRUTH ?

[bullet]

The thing about Clinton is that his budget didn't spend hardly any money on defense. In fact, he cut defense spending which is why the debt only grew that 2 trillion dollars.

That said, the economy is not directly correlated to the federal debt...

If you really want to get down to brass tacks, Klinton's signing of NAFTA actually HURT our economy by sending jobs and manufacturing to Mexico and Canada where labor is cheaper. It has caused job loss stateside and lowered the amount of money brought in from exports.




So 1,000 people lost their U.S. jobs in order for 10 million people to pay $1000 less for a vehicle built in mexico.

How does this hurt our economy ?

Do you know how much more goods would cost if we paid U.S. labor for all of them ?

[BP]

So 1,000 people lost their U.S. jobs in order for 10 million people to pay $1000 less for a vehicle built in mexico.

How does this hurt our economy ?

Do you know how much more goods would cost if we paid U.S. labor for all of them ?

Try 30k people at GM alone since 2005. Actual GM employees, not vendors or suppliers.

[Vertnut]

So 1,000 people lost their U.S. jobs in order for 10 million people to pay $1000 less for a vehicle built in mexico.

How does this hurt our economy ?

Do you know how much more goods would cost if we paid U.S. labor for all of them ?
OMG. Are you and Gpamp related? Seriously... :cool:

[jyro]

im young to and wondering the same thing, I also dont keep up with news that much because now days its all bad but I can say "can things get any fucking worse"

A famous communist once said---

Saul Alinsky quoting Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky

"They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and chance the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution."

This is the guiding light of modern democrats and the liberal press for electing Obama.

As soon as Obamas in office, you'll see different reporting.

[Vertnut]

A famous communist once said---

Saul Alinsky quoting Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky

"They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and chance the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution."

This is the guiding light of modern democrats and the liberal press for electing Obama.

As soon as Obamas in office, you'll see different reporting.
To add to this, Alinsky says to "create a need, even if there is none". If Barry makes you feel needy (like the "middle class" he pretends to love so much), it creates that dependence of folks living in a socialistic society.

[HOOCBB]

So 1,000 people lost their U.S. jobs in order for 10 million people to pay $1000 less for a vehicle built in mexico.

How does this hurt our economy ?

Do you know how much more goods would cost if we paid U.S. labor for all of them ?

Your numbers are bit off, but I would gladly pay an extra $1k for a vehicle that is made within our borders and keeps Americans in work...

The truth about your statement is as someone else has already said. 30k GM workers have lost their jobs since 2005. Not all of those were to send the production out of the country, but there were still quite a few in that number.

The "$1k" lower price is a farce too. You know good and well that GM, Ford and any other manufacturer has not voluntarily lowered the base price of a vehicle since NAFTA. In fact, they have gone UP. It's not like a corporation to lower costs, then pass it on to the consumer, they pocket the extra money.

[Jimbo]

Is that you Jeff Gannon? It is isn't it? I knew it!!!

Anyway, where else is Rush and O'Reilly gonna get a job?

But seriously, if we can survive the last 8 years (and I'm not convinced that we have?), we can survive anything.

ooooo!!! The sky is falling. :rolleyes:
Did you read a diferent post than I did, or are you just an idiot with dreams of being an ass?

[Jimbo]

So 1,000 people lost their U.S. jobs in order for 10 million people to pay $1000 less for a vehicle built in mexico.

How does this hurt our economy ?

Do you know how much more goods would cost if we paid U.S. labor for all of them ?
Wow. Does someone really have to point out that those people that lost those jobs can no longer do thier part to keep our economy healthy in the thousands of other ways they were going to, due to they fact they live within it? I can't say the same for the mexican companies cashing checks from money that was made in the US, for those slighter cheaper vehicles.
Did you just get your democrats for dummies handbook?

[bullet]

Try 30k people at GM alone since 2005. Actual GM employees, not vendors or suppliers.



Have you looked a gm stock price lately ?

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GM#chart2:symbol=gm;range=my;indicator=v olume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;log scale=on;source=undefined


Looks to me those layoffs came as they scaled back production due to reduced demand.

I guess NAFTA made GM lose money and not the fact that they were geared towards building gas guzzlers and underestimated how the price of rising fuel would affect consumrer demand in the future.


Thow in a credit bubble where every joe on the street could buy a new vehicle with a 600 fico and no money down that is no longer available and is it any wonder demand has fallen off a cliff ?

[black01gt]

Did you read a diferent post than I did, or are you just an idiot with dreams of being an ass?
No I think we read the same slanted and dramatic post. Do you just like talking stupid shit with dreams of someone listening or is there a point to your question?
I'm already an ass kid.

[bullet]

OMG. Are you and Gpamp related? Seriously... :cool:


Vertnut, please be kind enough to tell us how much your COST % wise for the houses you build would increase if you had to use WHITE UNION WORKERS to build it and not our friends from the south.


Now would you absorb that extra cost or pass it through to your customers ?

[AL P]

I am only pointing out facts. You can choose to remain close minded or maybe you can tell us all why nearly every republican president has suffered a recession under their presidency while they rarely happen when a democrat is in power. Or maybe why did the great depression happen under a republican while the longest economic expansion in U.S history was under a democrat. You have been trying to convince me that republicans investing and creating jobs is best for the economy but the facts do not show it. Just pure luck or is there no argument against the TRUTH ?

Yet you can't explain why any of it happens. All you can do is draw general conclusions, as I pointed out. Like the sitting president is a dictator or something.

Just keep avoiding the subject and continue to select your historical information in a vacuum and you'll do fine. Here is a good example. "Oh we had a huge deficit under Reagan!!". Reagan used economics to bust the Soviet's balls, shouldn't we have a deficit in that instance? Should we not have a deficit during wartime?

I like how your idiotic opinion also assumes having a deficit at all is taboo. Leverage is used to make things happen in business and government, it's a tool. That's why municipalities issue bonds, that's why the treasury issues securities. I know you are just repeating what you have been fed lately by your media masters but you really should try to grasp the concept.

[bullet]

Your numbers are bit off, but I would gladly pay an extra $1k for a vehicle that is made within our borders and keeps Americans in work...

The truth about your statement is as someone else has already said. 30k GM workers have lost their jobs since 2005. Not all of those were to send the production out of the country, but there were still quite a few in that number.

The "$1k" lower price is a farce too. You know good and well that GM, Ford and any other manufacturer has not voluntarily lowered the base price of a vehicle since NAFTA. In fact, they have gone UP. It's not like a corporation to lower costs, then pass it on to the consumer, they pocket the extra money.


Ever hear of inflation ?


Actually the cost would be that much more higher had they not sent the work abroad. Instead of paying $2000 more for next year's model you are only paying half that.

What is truly sad is the Mexicans making 80% less than the detroit union workers are actually harder workers and they care about their job unlike those in those here that think they are "owed" higher wages with less productivity.


GM, Ford and others pocket the extra money ?


LOL, maybe you should research the balance sheets and see how much extra money they are pocketing.







Before long you will either see your tax money bailing them out or a merger and less competition in the industry which will not be good for the consumer in the end. Either way is a lose lose situation.

[Vertnut]

Vertnut, please be kind enough to tell us how much your COST % wise for the houses you build would increase if you had to use WHITE UNION WORKERS to build it and not our friends from the south.


Now would you absorb that extra cost or pass it through to your customers ?
I've already been down this road, so obviously, you're new to this thread. I have two crews that uses "questionable" labor. My sheetrocker, and my roofer. Please don't try this tact, because you will only look silly. A lot of trades are needing work right now, and most of the illegals around our area, have gone home.

[AL P]

Have you looked a gm stock price lately ?

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GM#chart2:symbol=gm;range=my;indicator=v olume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;log scale=on;source=undefined


Looks to me those layoffs came as they scaled back production due to reduced demand.

I guess NAFTA made GM lose money and not the fact that they were geared towards building gas guzzlers and underestimated how the price of rising fuel would affect consumrer demand in the future.


Thow in a credit bubble where every joe on the street could buy a new vehicle with a 600 fico and no money down that is no longer available and is it any wonder demand has fallen off a cliff ?

GM has been cutting jobs because of NAFTA since the 1990s. I'm not sure why you would harp on the year 2005 and choose to try to justify your lame position with the latest slump in demand which has everything to do with tightening credit and a huge rise in gas prices.

Most of the assembly line workers laid off by GM are going to be making over $60K a year, some over $100K. Multiply that by 30,000 and it is quite a bit of money. If you want to see how that affects the economy then just look at Michigan. Their state economy has been destroyed. The housing situation in the Detroit area is one of the worst in the nation. The commercial real estate market there, well there really is no market. The situation didn't just develop overnight either, it showed up long before what we are going through now.

Of course, using your logic, GM took the extra profits from the cheaper cars and put that into the economy or something. But.....isn't GM located in Michigan? No, really, please continue telling us your theories, dummy.

[bullet]

Yet you can't explain why any of it happens. All you can do is draw general conclusions, as I pointed out. Like the sitting president is a dictator or something.

Just keep avoiding the subject and continue to select your historical information in a vacuum and you'll do fine. Here is a good example. "Oh we had a huge deficit under Reagan!!". Reagan used economics to bust the Soviet's balls, shouldn't we have a deficit in that instance? Should we not have a deficit during wartime?

I like how your idiotic opinion also assumes having a deficit at all is taboo. Leverage is used to make things happen in business and government, it's a tool. That's why municipalities issue bonds, that's why the treasury issues securities. I know you are just repeating what you have been fed lately by your media masters but you really should try to grasp the concept.




We financed 3 wars between the great depression and the time reagan took office and the debt never exceeded 1 trillion in that time frame. That is really amazing considering all of the soical programs fdr financed after the great depression.


Remind us how the war on communism turned out after all of the trillions borrowed to fight it.

[Vertnut]

We financed 3 wars between the great depression and the time reagan took office and the debt never exceeded 1 trillion in that time frame. That is really amazing considering all of the soical programs fdr financed after the great depression.


Remind us how the war on communism turned out after all of the trillions borrowed to fight it.
So...you think we should have just relented to communism? You can't have it both ways. :confused:

[bullet]

I've already been down this road, so obviously, you're new to this thread. I have two crews that uses "questionable" labor. My sheetrocker, and my roofer. Please don't try this tact, because you will only look silly. A lot of trades are needing work right now, and most of the illegals around our area, have gone home.




Why is avoidance always a republican answer ?


You slab crew is composed of all white people ?

Your painters are all white ?


Your brickers are all white ?

Your framers are all white ?




Answer the question, how much would your house cost % wise increase if you had to use union workers and not our friends from the south ?


Do you think a white worker will roof a 12 and 12 pitch two story for $10 an hour in 100 degree weather ?

[bullet]

GM has been cutting jobs because of NAFTA since the 1990s. I'm not sure why you would harp on the year 2005 and choose to try to justify your lame position with the latest slump in demand which has everything to do with tightening credit and a huge rise in gas prices.

Most of the assembly line workers laid off by GM are going to be making over $60K a year, some over $100K. Multiply that by 30,000 and it is quite a bit of money. If you want to see how that affects the economy then just look at Michigan. Their state economy has been destroyed. The housing situation in the Detroit area is one of the worst in the nation. The commercial real estate market there, well there really is no market. The situation didn't just develop overnight either, it showed up long before what we are going through now.

Of course, using your logic, GM took the extra profits from the cheaper cars and put that into the economy or something. But.....isn't GM located in Michigan? No, really, please continue telling us your theories, dummy.


NAFTA took effect in 1994. What was economic growth like from 1994 to 2001?


Did it decline ?




You are missing the point here. The jobs were outsourced due to competition, not for the company to make more profits. GM had no choice if it wanted to compete pricewise.


Why did toyota chose to open the tundra plant in Texas instead of detroit ?

Why did they not open it in mexico ?

[Vertnut]

Why is avoidance always a republican answer ?


You slab crew is composed of all white people ?

Your painters are all white ?


Your brickers are all white ?

Your framers are all white ?




Answer the question, how much would your house cost % wise increase if you had to use union workers and not our friends from the south ?


Do you think a white worker will roof a 12 and 12 pitch two story for $10 an hour in 100 degree weather ?
Asshole, I don't KNOW what it would cost for a union worker to work on my house. My framer is out of Ennis, and has a small ALL WHITE crew of Cheq's. My plumber is a local guy from Midlothian, that has an all white 4 man crew. My brick layer is a white man out of Red Oak, who uses 2 black helpers. My painter is a local guy here in Midlothian (his wife cuts my hair). My slab guy is another local guy that has a few visa'd mexicans. I already told you about my sheetrocker and roofer. If you would like tha actual details of my subs, we can arrange that. Don't embarrass yourself anymore. It's not pretty...

[Bubbaearl]

well if you cant blame it on bush , blame it on the mexicans . it's hell getting old because shit like this aint new anymore. :(

[AL P]

We financed 3 wars between the great depression and the time reagan took office and the debt never exceeded 1 trillion in that time frame. That is really amazing considering all of the soical programs fdr financed after the great depression.


Remind us how the war on communism turned out after all of the trillions borrowed to fight it.

We've had a lot more debt than we have now when you consider how it relates to GDP. Sure in dollar terms it was lower because thanks to inflation.

The war on communism turned out well. Right now you are seeing Russia get brave because of the money they got from oil over the past few years. That party is over though, they are about to go back in the closet.

[bullet]

So...you think we should have just relented to communism? You can't have it both ways. :confused:


Did i say that ?


My point is we fought wwII, korea, and vietnam without running the debt up massively like reagan and bush did.


I guess if anything a good argument for that excessive debt is that it spared a lot of lives compared to the first 3 wars.


I still await your answer on the cost of building.

[Vertnut]

Did i say that ?


My point is we fought wwII, korea, and vietnam without running the debt up massively like reagan and bush did.


I guess if anything a good argument for that excessive debt is that it spared a lot of lives compared to the first 3 wars.


I still await your answer on the cost of building.
Read my post above your drivel...

[AL P]

NAFTA took effect in 1994. What was economic growth like from 1994 to 2001?


Did it decline ?




You are missing the point here. The jobs were outsourced due to competition, not for the company to make more profits. GM had no choice if it wanted to compete pricewise.


Why did toyota chose to open the tundra plant in Texas instead of detroit ?

Why did they not open it in mexico ?

What was Michigan's economic growth like after NAFTA? You want to talk about how the car industry affects the economy then lets look at the micro level data that tells the story. The place has been destroyed.

The reason why the jobs were outsourced doesn't change the facts about how that affected the economy. You made the case that cheaper prices offset that effect somewhat, they don't. Car prices are determined by the market anyway.

Toyota can build a non union plant in San Antonio because they are more streamlined and better competitors. I do agree with you that unionized labor has not helped keep jobs here, they've been digging their own grave for years and may get to lay in it very soon.

I agree with you about higher prices in relation to American labor. But lower prices don't offset the huge blow that the loss of wages deals to the economy. Employment and wages have always driven and will continue to drive this economy, not cheap prices.

[AL P]

My point is we fought wwII, korea, and vietnam without running the debt up massively like reagan and bush did.

As a percentage of GDP, we had more debt at the end of WWII than we have ever had. Look it up.

[bullet]

Asshole, I don't KNOW what it would cost for a union worker to work on my house. My framer is out of Ennis, and has a small ALL WHITE crew of Cheq's. My plumber is a local guy from Midlothian, that has an all white 4 man crew. My brick layer is a white man out of Red Oak, who uses 2 black helpers. My painter is a local guy here in Midlothian (his wife cuts my hair). My slab guy is another local guy that has a few visa'd mexicans. I already told you about my sheetrocker and roofer. If you would like tha actual details of my subs, we can arrange that. Don't embarrass yourself anymore. It's not pretty...




Chill out, i am not attacking you.
Don't get all pissy because the TRUTH is your housing COST would increase if you used all white union workers to build it.

Now as a business owner you are faced with 2 choices, either employ high $ paid workers or outsource to the friends of the south or to a white "contractor" who employ them in order to cut costs to compete. By choosing the first route your cost will increase and your future home buyers may go with another builder who is cheaper. You have no choice if you want to remain in the industry. Now this is just your small business. Everyone else faces them same choice including gm, ford, etc but folks get all bitchy about sending jobs out of the US but they sure dont want to pay the extra cost on everything for keeping them here.

[Vertnut]

Chill out, i am not attacking you.
Don't get all pissy because the TRUTH is your housing COST would increase if you used all white union workers to build it.

Now as a business owner you are faced with 2 choices, either employ high $ paid workers or outsource to the friends of the south or to a white "contractor" who employ them in order to cut costs to compete. By choosing the first route your cost will increase and your future home buyers may go with another builder who is cheaper. You have no choice if you want to remain in the industry. Now this is just your small business. Everyone else faces them same choice including gm, ford, etc but folks get all bitchy about sending jobs out of the US but they sure dont want to pay the extra cost on everything for keeping them here.
In a nutshell, I would be happy to pay the extra money in trade for all the illegals going home. In my situation, it might cost extra labor on roofing (which has gone through the roof-no pun intended) and sheetrock, which has gone up 30% in the last 3 months.

By the way...piss on a union. The reason California and the north-east's housing is out of whack, is due to "union labor". No thanks.

[bullet]

We've had a lot more debt than we have now when you consider how it relates to GDP. Sure in dollar terms it was lower because thanks to inflation.

The war on communism turned out well. Right now you are seeing Russia get brave because of the money they got from oil over the past few years. That party is over though, they are about to go back in the closet.


Good point. But surely there was inflation from 1930 to 1980, 74-80 comes in my mind and the debt still stayed under 1 trillion.

[AL P]

Good point. But surely there was inflation from 1930 to 1980, 74-80 comes in my mind and the debt still stayed under 1 trillion.

In modern dollar terms, the national debt hasn't been under $1 trillion since the 1950s. And that is really the way you have to look at it. At the end of WWII we had a lot more than that in those same terms. Any other basis of looking at it is skewed because of inflation and makes for hype.

[bullet]

In a nutshell, I would be happy to pay the extra money in trade for all the illegals going home. In my situation, it might cost extra labor on roofing (which has gone through the roof-no pun intended) and sheetrock, which has gone up 30% in the last 3 months.

By the way...piss on a union. The reason California and the north-east's housing is out of whack, is due to "union labor". No thanks.


Are you talking labor or materials ?



I know felt and shingles went parabolic right before the hurricane and since but rock has stayed pretty low around here. I still can't believe that 30 year shingles are 75 -80 a sqaure when just 4 years ago they were 36. My roofer is afraid to bid jobs because the prices jump around so much. If he does he locks in the price before turning in the bid but a lot of suppliers now won't lock anymore do to the volatility.

[Vertnut]

Are you talking labor or materials ?



I know felt and shingles went parabolic right before the hurricane and since but rock has stayed pretty low around here. I still can't believe that 30 year shingles are 75 -80 a sqaure when just 4 years ago they were 36. My roofer is afraid to bid jobs because the prices jump around so much. If he does he locks in the price before turning in the bid but a lot of suppliers now won't lock anymore do to the volatility.
I can pull invoices, but shingles have had 2 18-20% increases since June. If you like I can give you my roofers' info. He's one of the biggest in the metroplex. He can "turnkey" a job for a little more than what the underlayment and shingles alone would cost me.

[bullet]

In modern dollar terms, the national debt hasn't been under $1 trillion since the 1950s. And that is really the way you have to look at it. At the end of WWII we had a lot more than that in those same terms. Any other basis of looking at it is skewed because of inflation and makes for hype.




Even if you assume 3% annually for inflation we still should not have went from 1 to 12 trillion in the last 28 years.

[01WhiteCobra]

Good point. But surely there was inflation from 1930 to 1980, 74-80 comes in my mind and the debt still stayed under 1 trillion.

Yea, and the average salary was around 10K. Your point?

[bullet]

I can pull invoices, but shingles have had 2 18-20% increases since June. If you like I can give you my roofers' info. He's one of the biggest in the metroplex. He can "turnkey" a job for a little more than what the underlayment and shingles alone would cost me.

I'm 180 miles south of you. Don't think he we make the drive without a "surcharge".


Just last week my cost on shingles went up 7%. I'm overseeing a new construction for a friend right now and he bought 60 squares before the hurricane at $65 and felt for $14 before the slab even got poured. They are now 80 a square and 20 for felt.

[Vertnut]

I'm 180 miles south of you. Don't think he we make the drive without a "surcharge".


Just last week my cost on shingles went up 7%. I'm overseeing a new construction for a friend right now and he bought 60 squares before the hurricane at $65 and felt for $14 before the slab even got poured. They are now 80 a square and 20 for felt.
I'm about to put a roof on one, and I'm a little nervous.

[BP]

My point is we fought wwII, korea, and vietnam without running the debt up massively like reagan and bush did.


I guess if anything a good argument for that excessive debt is that it spared a lot of lives compared to the first 3 wars.



The debt increased over 500% during WW2, almost exactly the same percentage as since 1980. Dollar wise maybe it's not as impressive but once you factor inflation and and all of the entitlement programs since then the numbers are going to be similar.

[AL P]

Even if you assume 3% annually for inflation we still should not have went from 1 to 12 trillion in the last 28 years.

Really, why shouldn't we have?

[bullet]

The debt increased over 500% during WW2, almost exactly the same percentage as since 1980. Dollar wise maybe it's not as impressive but once you factor inflation and and all of the entitlement programs since then the numbers are going to be similar.



From 1 to 12 trillion in 28 years is not a 500% increase.


:confused:

[bullet]

Really, why shouldn't we have?


Because using that same 1 trillion inflation adjusted from 1980 would put us around 2.3 trillion debt in today's dollars if the runaway borrowing would not have taken over since 1980. Interesting that since 1980 the minimum wage has doubled yet the national debt has increase 11X.

[Jimbo]

No I think we read the same slanted and dramatic post. Do you just like talking stupid shit with dreams of someone listening or is there a point to your question?
I'm already an ass kid.
Ah, I see. If I read correctly you were the first to chime in "talking shit", and it certainly seems as if you were listening, albeit not comprehending. I love and have to laugh at the "kid" bit, it always seems only young people or threatened dullards go with that one, good choice.
Oh and the point was to comment on your poor interpretation and harsh response.