Someone convince me...

[Boost Addict]

Why is it acceptable for the government to tell an individual making more than $250K/year that he/she has too much and has to give more of that money to the goverment than someone making less than $250K/year?

Basically, someone justify redistribution of wealth to me.

This is disgusting:

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/195153.html

[GT Dan]

You already know the answer... Its not...

[89gt-stanger]

The answer is that Senator Obama likes socialism. He wants healthcare to be like Canada, dollar wise.

[Geor!]

It's not justifiable in a Capitalistic society. Why McCain didn't call him out on it in these exact words: "Socialism has no place in a Capitalistic society," is beyond me. He called him out -- but just partially.

[01WhiteCobra]

Because the majority of this country cannot fathom making 250K. It's called a populist opinion.

[GT Dan]

Because the majority of this country cannot fathom making 250K. It's called a populist opinion.

Thats a really good point... we have a dumbass in our office that thinks it should be lowered to 100k...

Of course, a couple days ago, he made the comment that we didnt land on the moon either... :eek:

[thesource]

I don't know about other areas but I could live pretty damn nicely on 250K . I know a few people making it and they are sitting pretty nicely even with the economy in the shitter .

[barronj]

Of course, a couple days ago, he made the comment that we didnt land on the moon either... :eek:
Can you cite a source on this one?

[sc281_99-0135]

Can you cite a source on this one?



so we can point and laugh at him

[01WhiteCobra]

Can you cite a source on this one?

so we can point and laugh at him

To a source verifying what his officemate said?

[01WhiteCobra]

I don't know about other areas but I could live pretty damn nicely on 250K . I know a few people making it and they are sitting pretty nicely even with the economy in the shitter .

250K is a really decent income and certainly puts you in the top percentile of earners in America.

But... take away the incentive to make 250K and we'll be all sitting at 60K without any drive, ambition or innovation.

Why bust your ass to make more if you can make less and have the government backfill your missed income?

I cannot think of too many people making 250K who aren't dreaming of making 500K. I cannot think of anyone making 500K who isn't dreaming of making 1MM a year.

[Got5onIt]

250K is a really decent income and certainly puts you in the top percentile of earners in America.

But... take away the incentive to make 250K and we'll be all sitting at 60K without any drive, ambition or innovation.

Why bust your ass to make more if you can make less and have the government backfill your missed income?

I cannot think of too many people making 250K who aren't dreaming of making 500K. I cannot think of anyone making 500K who isn't dreaming of making 1MM a year.

How will the government backfill $60k up to $250K? The people who make that kind of money are ambitious and driven. They want to have the house on a hill and a summer home on the coast. You know the difference in quality of life from $100k to $250K. Hell, it changes from $70k to $100K. I find it really hard to believe that the incentive to earn is directly related to tax paid when you're considering the individuals in this tax bracket.

Now, putting that type of logic into the lower income bracket may have some truths.

[01WhiteCobra]

How will the government backfill $60k up to $250K? The people who make that kind of money are ambitious and driven. They want to have the house on a hill and a summer home on the coast. You know the difference in quality of life from $100k to $250K. Hell, it changes from $70k to $100K. I find it really hard to believe that the incentive to earn is directly related to tax paid when you're considering the individuals in this tax bracket.

Now, putting that type of logic into the lower income bracket may have some truths.

Dude, I'm making a point.

Not tooting my own horn but I eclipsed 250K years ago. I know what it means to make 250K a year.

Hell, I can sell out my partnership and still make in the 95 percentile of yearly income on my investments.

I also know that making 250K a year isn't shit. I still have to get up every morning and bust my ass to make it happen.

How do you backfill it? Universal, government paid, health care, tax breaks to those that pay shit in taxes (who wants to pay my 60K tax bill in 08? I mean us "rich people" don't pay taxes). SSI tax that goes beyond the current ceiling of 108K a year (which I won't see anywhere close to in benefits received when retired.)

Lots of ways... taxing small business owners to the tune of 50%+ in taxes is another example.

[Got5onIt]

Dude, I'm making a point.

Not tooting my own horn but I eclipsed 250K years ago. I know what it means to make 250K a year.

Hell, I can sell out my partnership and still make in the 95 percentile of yearly income on my investments.

I also know that making 250K a year isn't shit. I still have to get up every morning and bust my ass to make it happen.

How do you backfill it? Universal, government paid, health care, tax breaks to those that pay shit in taxes (who wants to pay my 60K tax bill in 08? I mean us "rich people" don't pay taxes). SSI tax that goes beyond the current ceiling of 108K a year (which I won't see anywhere close to in benefits received when retired.)

Lots of ways... taxing small business owners to the tune of 50%+ in taxes is another example.

Well, you're in the minority since you're in that upper tax bracket. Access for political influence may be better for you than the general voting public, but the voting public will not have your best interests at heart. Just remember, when you decide that you're fed up with paying these taxes over $250K, your "surplus" will always be passed on to another individual with incentives different from your's.

[01WhiteCobra]

Well, you're in the minority since you're in that upper tax bracket. Access for political influence may be better for you than the general voting public, but the voting public will not have your best interests at heart. Just remember, when you decide that you're fed up with paying these taxes over $250K, your "surplus" will always be passed on to another individual with incentives different from your's.

Does that make it better?

Hell no.

No worries. I'm make my money. The kids will be taken care of. When they leave for college mine and my wife's ass are headed to the Isle Of Man with their 16% tax rate. I've played this game long enough and I'm smart enough to maximize my benefit.

As far as the rest. It is exactly my point. Where is the incentive to continue to try to make more money? There isn't. Obama will take care of it all. No worries.

Hell, no. You want to see a mass exodus of corporations to the offshore? Start taxing the hell out of business owners in the States.

Want to see a bunch of people not getting raising? Tax the hell out of the business owners in the States.

Business owners will still make what they are making. It's their company. When Obama takes another 10% or 20% out of the company... it isn't coming from the owner's profits. It's coming from his worker's salary increases. The owners will continue to make whatever net they made before.

The "working class" will not be any better off than before. The money may come from different places... but they won't be making any more.

[01WhiteCobra]

And yea, I am in a minority. I love competition. I think life is just like when I played football for 17 years. Only this time we aren't tallying points, we're tallying money and position.

Sorry if that seems harsh but that is how the game is played.

[GT Dan]

Can you cite a source on this one?

His name is Juan Rodriguez and he's a PC Tech on our helpdesk... I can give you his number if you want to discuss it with him... His words, not mine... :D

[krazy kris]

well I guess people should just not give a shit about wanting to make money and be low life pieces of shit like obama. :mad:

[01WhiteCobra]

well I guess people should just not give a shit about wanting to make money and be low life pieces of shit like obama. :mad:

Nah, Obama makes huge $$$$. Big time.

He only pretends to be a poor black man.

[Got5onIt]

Does that make it better?

Hell no.

No worries. I'm make my money. The kids will be taken care of. When they leave for college mine and my wife's ass are headed to the Isle Of Man with their 16% tax rate. I've played this game long enough and I'm smart enough to maximize my benefit.

As far as the rest. It is exactly my point. Where is the incentive to continue to try to make more money? There isn't. Obama will take care of it all. No worries.

Hell, no. You want to see a mass exodus of corporations to the offshore? Start taxing the hell out of business owners in the States.

Want to see a bunch of people not getting raising? Tax the hell out of the business owners in the States.

Business owners will still make what they are making. It's their company. When Obama takes another 10% or 20% out of the company... it isn't company from the owner's profits. It's coming from his worker's salary increases. The owners will continue to make whatever net they made before.

Are we not and have we not been seeing that everywhere, more recently with the current Tech sector??? Mass exodus is already here, IMO. So consumer spending takes a hit from lower wages, thus hitting business owners in the back pocket. Where does the cycle end ?? The cycle is already here in full force. The incentive is always there to make money, we just have to find a new way of doing it. Currency is "fixed" short term throughout the economic system and we must find a way to keep the redistrubtion of wealth within our own country.

[01WhiteCobra]

Are we not and have we not been seeing that everywhere, more recently with the current Tech sector??? Mass exodus is already here, IMO. So consumer spending takes a hit from lower wages, thus hitting business owners in the back pocket. Where does the cycle end ?? The cycle is already here in full force. The incentive is always there to make money, we just have to find a new way of doing it. Currency is "fixed" short term throughout the economic system and we must find a way to keep the redistrubtion of wealth within our own country.

There is a different between redistributing wealth (taxes) and creatively finding more profit in your company. I'm a business owner. I do it all the time.

Mass exodus? You have seen anything yet. Shipping jobs offshore is one thing. Shipping entire corporate structures is another. It's a global economy where most of the large corporations have multiple offices in multiple countries (hell I'm only a company with 16 employees and we have two offices off shore now.)

While we are at it.... I've put in over 250K into SSI since I started working. According to the SSA, if I work until I'm 65 (doubtful) will put in a total over 600K (quite a bit more under Obama.)

This is what I can expect:

http://www.fool.com/personal-finance/retirement/can-you-live-on-84589-per-month.aspx

Thank God, I have a brain and can actually invest my money.

[sc281_99-0135]

Are we not and have we not been seeing that everywhere, more recently with the current Tech sector??? Mass exodus is already here, IMO. So consumer spending takes a hit from lower wages, thus hitting business owners in the back pocket. Where does the cycle end ?? The cycle is already here in full force. The incentive is always there to make money, we just have to find a new way of doing it. Currency is "fixed" short term throughout the economic system and we must find a way to keep the redistrubtion of wealth within our own country.

Got5onIt
Time Served


Join Date: May 2005
Location: NT Mean Green
Posts: 757

busy under the liberal professors desk arent we?

get extra credit for being a moron??

[Got5onIt]

There is a different between redistributing wealth (taxes) and creatively finding more profit in your company. I'm a business owner. I do it all the time.

Mass exodus? You have seen anything yet. Shipping jobs offshore is one thing. Shipping entire corporate structures is another.

While we are at it.... I've put in over 250K into SSI since I started working. According to the SSA, if I work until I'm 65 (doubtful) will put in a total over 600K (quite a bit more under Obama.)

This is what I can expect:

http://www.fool.com/personal-finance/retirement/can-you-live-on-84589-per-month.aspx

Thank God, I have a brain and can actually invest my money.

Well, when I speak of wealth redistribution, I'm not speaking terms of government taxation and social welfare programs. I'm talking the "worth" of the U.S. Economy as a whole.

[poopnut2]

First of all, I'm not gonna say it's the right thing to do but just look at it this way...money to pay for the deficit has to come from somewhere, and depending on what the tax rate is for the higher income people in question I'll try and at least grasp his train of thought.

Guy A makes $30,000 a year. If everyone is taxed, say an extra 5%, that's an extra $1,500 out of "Joe Sixpack's" wallet. That's quite a bit.

Guy B makes $250,000 a year and will lose an extra $12,500. He still comes out with well over $200,000 a year after all is said and done. You think he's gonna trade his job for one earning less than that to avoid the tax increase? Hell no.

Yeah, it is almost like punishing the people having high paying jobs, and like I said, I'm not completely on board with it but that's a way of looking at it.

[sc281_99-0135]

Well, when I speak of wealth redistribution, I'm not speaking terms of government taxation and social welfare programs. I'm talking the "worth" of the U.S. Economy as a whole.


then the gov needs to gtf out of the way and let capitalism take its course.

there is a reason we became the most prosperous country in the world. and it wasnt the new deal.

[sc281_99-0135]

First of all, I'm not gonna say it's the right thing to do but just look at it this way...money to pay for the deficit has to come from somewhere, and depending on what the tax rate is for the higher income people in question I'll try and at least grasp his train of thought.

Guy A makes $30,000 a year. If everyone is taxed, say an extra 5%, that's an extra $1,500 out of "Joe Sixpack's" wallet. That's quite a bit.

Guy B makes $250,000 a year and will lose an extra $12,500. He still comes out with well over $200,000 a year after all is said and done. You think he's gonna trade his job for one earning less than that to avoid the tax increase? Hell no.

Yeah, it is almost like punishing the people having high paying jobs, and like I said, I'm not completely on board with it but that's a way of looking at it.


if we KNEW our tax increase was going DIRECTLY into the paydown of the deficit, then id be for it. but not one person has said that. they want to fund the second stimulus with it.

[Got5onIt]

Got5onIt
Time Served


Join Date: May 2005
Location: NT Mean Green
Posts: 757

busy under the liberal professors desk arent we?

get extra credit for being a moron??


OK, jackass. Read my post again. You see wealth redistribution and you think ''"OhknOWz!! I is gettin' taxed".

Let me put in simple terms for you dip shit:

Think of the Economy in terms of the NFL. You know you watch football like myself and most other normal Americans (you're probably in your trailer, I suppose). There are 32 NFL teams and each week half must win and half must lose. By the end of the season, there will XXX number of wins and XXX number of losses. This number is FIXED. Much like the NFL, money moving through the Economy is FIXED short term. When companies leave or go under they exit the market. Where does their share go??? Ideally, back to the market for others to take. Remember the NFL example, someone has to win & someone has get a loss. That's what I'm talking about asshat. We as Americans, must fidn ways to "make money", new incentives, etc. to keep this share in our own country for the better of the economy and all Americans. Allowing outside forces to take it up is what's currently killing our great society.

Simple enough Billy Bob??

[sc281_99-0135]

OK, jackass. Read my post again. You see wealth redistribution and you think ''"OhknOWz!! I is gettin' taxed".

Let me put in simple terms for you dip shit:

Think of the Economy in terms of the NFL. You know you watch football like myself and most other normal Americans (you're probably in your trailer, I suppose). There are 32 NFL teams and each week half must win and half must lose. By the end of the season, there will XXX number of wins and XXX number of losses. This number is FIXED. Much like the NFL, money moving through the Economy is FIXED short term. When companies leave or go under they exit the market. Where does their share go??? Ideally, back to the market for others to take. That's what I'm talking about asshat. We as Americans, must fidn ways to "make money", new incentives, etc. to keep this share in our own country for the better of the economy and all Americans. Allowing outside forces to take it up is what's currently killing our great society.

Simple enough Billy Bob??

first off dickhead

i am in the financial sector and i am in the higher tax brackets. so im not your trailer neighbor.

second
capitalism (what youve just decribed) is not killing our economy. having huge govt intervention and the second highest corporate tax bracket system is. business and high net worth individuals are exiting our economy for this exact reason. see whitecobras post above.

if you let capitalism take its course, the failed business get bought by a another business( generally one with a better record of handling said business) regulation is tying the hands these businesses backs. so you want to add MORE to fix the problem?

[01WhiteCobra]

First of all, I'm not gonna say it's the right thing to do but just look at it this way...money to pay for the deficit has to come from somewhere, and depending on what the tax rate is for the higher income people in question I'll try and at least grasp his train of thought.

Guy A makes $30,000 a year. If everyone is taxed, say an extra 5%, that's an extra $1,500 out of "Joe Sixpack's" wallet. That's quite a bit.

Guy B makes $250,000 a year and will lose an extra $12,500. He still comes out with well over $200,000 a year after all is said and done. You think he's gonna trade his job for one earning less than that to avoid the tax increase? Hell no.

Yeah, it is almost like punishing the people having high paying jobs, and like I said, I'm not completely on board with it but that's a way of looking at it.

First of all we have a progressive tax system in this country.

Under Obama it is a much much more progressive tax increase.

Again, you are missing the point.

I'll guarantee you I'm not losing "12,500" next year unless sales are down. My employees will lose, as a whole, $12,500 because they ain't getting raises.

Shit rolls down hill.

[01WhiteCobra]

First of all, I'm not gonna say it's the right thing to do but just look at it this way...money to pay for the deficit has to come from somewhere, and depending on what the tax rate is for the higher income people in question I'll try and at least grasp his train of thought.

Also, the top 5% of wage earners in this country pay over 50% of the tax burden in this country. Hell, the top 1% pay over 30%.

I love Obama's plan he wants to distribute MY MONEY to people who DONT PAY TAXES anyway.

Wealth redistribution, FTL.

[Got5onIt]

first off dickhead

i am in the financial sector and i am in the higher tax brackets. so im not your trailer neighbor.

second
capitalism (what youve just decribed) is not killing our economy. having huge govt intervention and the second highest corporate tax bracket system is. business and high net worth individuals are exiting our economy for this exact reason. see whitecobras post above.

if you let capitalism take its course, the failed business get bought by a another business( generally one with a better record of handling said business) regulation is tying the hands these businesses backs. so you want to add MORE to fix the problem?

Uh, I never said capitalism was killing our economy. I never said increase taxes on businesses and specific corporations. Bring your comprehension skills up to par asshole. If I need to be more specific, whatever it takes to keep wealth in the hands of Americans for the betterment of Americans is what needs to be done. we may have to look outside the box with better education and incentives for researching new technologies, etc. Heavy government hand on the Free Market is NOT the way to go. My point in earlier posts, if you can flip your twelve collars down for a minute, was that this is EXACTLY what is going on now.

Then again, I may not have made myself very clear on that, since your panties became wadded. Oh and one more thing Francine, don't lecture me on capitalism. I know more than I've ever wanted to know about how the Free Market works....

[01WhiteCobra]

OK, jackass. Read my post again. You see wealth redistribution and you think ''"OhknOWz!! I is gettin' taxed".

Let me put in simple terms for you dip shit:

Think of the Economy in terms of the NFL. You know you watch football like myself and most other normal Americans (you're probably in your trailer, I suppose). There are 32 NFL teams and each week half must win and half must lose. By the end of the season, there will XXX number of wins and XXX number of losses. This number is FIXED. Much like the NFL, money moving through the Economy is FIXED short term. When companies leave or go under they exit the market. Where does their share go??? Ideally, back to the market for others to take. Remember the NFL example, someone has to win & someone has get a loss. That's what I'm talking about asshat. We as Americans, must fidn ways to "make money", new incentives, etc. to keep this share in our own country for the better of the economy and all Americans. Allowing outside forces to take it up is what's currently killing our great society.

Simple enough Billy Bob??

Dude, half my companies revenues come from outside the borders of the US. I actually BRING money into the US (actually, until the dollar strengthened lately, it was a really good deal since our quotes are priced in local currency. Exchange rate differential FTW.)

You have a very myopic view of the US economy.

[01WhiteCobra]

Then again, I may not have made myself very clear on that, since your panties became wadded. Oh and one more thing Francine, don't lecture me on capitalism. I know more than I've ever wanted to know about how the Free Market works....

Well fucking show it. Because you haven't showed it in this thread.

[Got5onIt]

Dude, half my companies revenues come from outside the borders of the US. I actually BRING money into the US (actually, until the dollar strengthened lately, it was a really good deal since our quotes are priced in local currency. Exchange rate differential FTW.)

You have a very myopic view of the US economy.

I'm not in the know to say if you're the rule or the exception. My first guess is you're not the rule. Even if it was reversed, money from consumers is heavily flowing out of this country on goods & services. Again, I go back to the redistribution of wealth outside of the U.S and how it's killing our presence on a global level.

Maybe I should throw out that I'm married, have 2 kids, mortgage, job, dog, 3 cars, etc.. Billy Bob wont hate on me then, maybe......

[01WhiteCobra]

I'm not in the know to say if you're the rule or the exception. My first guess is you're not the rule. Even if it was reversed, money from consumers is heavily flowing out of this country on goods & services. Again, I go back to the redistribution of wealth outside of the U.S and how it's killing our presence on a global level.

And who's fault is that?

It isn't my fault. It isn't the fault of countless other business owners that realized this was becoming a global economy and you better figure out a way to make money off shore.

Don't fuck my executed plan up because others didn't get it. The rules were laid out long ago. I can't help if if others "didn't get it." Don't penalize those that did.

I'm married with two kids and a mortgage (my only debt) as well. Not sure what that has to do with it.

[FreightTrain]

First of all, I'm not gonna say it's the right thing to do but just look at it this way...money to pay for the deficit has to come from somewhere, and depending on what the tax rate is for the higher income people in question I'll try and at least grasp his train of thought.

Guy A makes $30,000 a year. If everyone is taxed, say an extra 5%, that's an extra $1,500 out of "Joe Sixpack's" wallet. That's quite a bit.

Guy B makes $250,000 a year and will lose an extra $12,500. He still comes out with well over $200,000 a year after all is said and done. You think he's gonna trade his job for one earning less than that to avoid the tax increase? Hell no.

Yeah, it is almost like punishing the people having high paying jobs, and like I said, I'm not completely on board with it but that's a way of looking at it.


In my industry you can very easily work yourself into several higher tax brackets. What's the point of killing your self working 14hr days 7 days of week if at some point your working for less. Granted my industry isn't your average 9 to 5 m-f gig. Most folks in my industry have a certain dollar amount in mind. Once we hit that dollar amount in any given pay period we don't work until the begining of the next pay period. No point in working extra just to see it all go to the government in the form of income tax and railroad retirement. If I make 3k in two weeks I will bring home about 2,200 after everything is said and done. If I make 5k I only bring home 3k. So basicly I worked 3 days for free. I can think of a better way to spend 3 days sitting on my ass vs working to pay for some dead beat.

[Got5onIt]

And who's fault is that?

It isn't my fault. It isn't the fault of countless other business owners that realized this was becoming a global economy and you better figure out a way to make money off shore.

Don't fuck my executed plan up because others didn't get it. The rules were laid out long ago. I can't help if if others "didn't get it." Don't penalize those that did.

I'm married with two kids and a mortgage (my only debt) as well. Not sure what that has to do with it.

And here's a good point. Possibly penalize those who do not do certain things (And before another person shoots off at the mouth, our great country and it's envied economic model is FAR from being a true Free Market. It's always had some Govt intervention). Incentive can even make a housewife into a whore :D. The problem with the Global economy is that the markets are not equal between countries. But then again, like you said, the rules have been laid out long ago. Are we really surprised by all this?

[01WhiteCobra]

In my industry you can very easily work yourself into several higher tax brackets...

I understand what poopnut is saying. Hell I laugh at people who tell me, "Yea, but think of the capital gains you'll pay on that." I WANT to pay capital gains... it means I didn't lose any money.

I also don't necessarily mind paying the taxes I'm paying now. I think I receive adequate service from my local, county, state and federal governments. Can they be more efficient? Sure. I'm hoping the day will come they are.

But, as a small business partner with 100% income derived from pass-through income, I'll be really really pissed if 50% of my income is taxed according to Obama's plan. Why the fuck work? Where is my incentive to increase profitability and increase sales? So the Feds can have 50%? Fuck them.

At the moment I'm paying well over 40% of my income to local, county,state and federal governments. If they can't make a go of it. Fuck 'em. They need to cut back, not me.

[FreightTrain]

I understand what poopnut is saying. Hell I laugh at people who tell me, "Yea, but think of the capital gains you'll pay on that." I WANT to pay capital gains... it means I didn't lose any money.

I also don't necessarily mind paying the taxes I'm paying now. I think I receive adequate service from my local, county, state and federal governments. Can they be more efficient? Sure. I'm hoping the day will come they are.

But, as a small business partner with 100% income derived from pass-through income, I'll be really really pissed if 50% of my income is taxed according to Obama's plan. Why the fuck work? Where is my incentive to increase profitability and increase sales? So the Feds can have 50%? Fuck them.

At the moment I'm paying well over 40% of my income to local, county,state and federal governments. If they can't make a go of it. Fuck 'em. They need to cut back, not me.


Like the saying goes. A poor man has never given me a job so why tax the rich into the poor house. Growing up I came from a lower middle income family. We weren't poor, but my parents sure as hell didn't buy me a new car on my 16th birthday. Before I could even vote I aligned myself with the Republican party and was very out spoken about it. Alot of my teachers and other adults thought I was nuts and would question why I would do such a thing. My response to them was " I plan on being rich when I get older"

[Slammy]

then the gov needs to gtf out of the way and let capitalism take its course.

there is a reason we became the most prosperous country in the world. and it wasnt the new deal.

we became the most prosperous and powerful nation in the world because we were a hard working industrial nation with a strong middle class. Thats quickly going away, we dont make shit now and the middle class is struggling to even be able to buy a house or car. Back in the 50s it wasnt uncommon for a guy to work while the wife stayed home. He worked at a manufacting company and made enough for a new house and new car and had a good savings. He also had job security and a good retirement he was working toward. That was the american dream, something ever hardworking common man could achieve. The white collar guys were the management but they had morals and intelligence to realize their sucess was built by the middle class workers they had which they respected.

Now you got greedy ass white collars who think blue collar people are idiots, thats the reason they cant make $250k a year. Then greed sets in because of access to cheap as shit labor in mexico and china. Im not saying they are all but all it takes is one greedy fuck in a market to outsource and the rest of the market has no choice but to follow or be ran out of business. Look what happened to Levi's jeans!!

I dont see how anyone can wonder why this country has gone to shit. Im so pissed off at our government for letting it happen. I agree %100 with obama, that companies that ship jobs away should be cut off from all forms of government help. They should do this to counteract the lure of outsourcing. They also have to protect american businesses somehow from cheap shit being imported. Maybe we should tell the chinese companies that they have to employ americans in order to sell products in the US? Make them compete on fair grounds, the better product will prevail.

I know if i went to the store and saw an american product and a chinese product side by side and the price was only a few dollars more for the american product i would always buy american. I have pride in my country AND i know its a better made product by a person who needs me to to buy it in order to keep their job. Instead china has got it where american companies are supposed to compete on price and that just isnt going to happen.

If they want to do business in another country, then build a fucking plant there to make product for that market and employ their people but this taking advantage of cheap labor puts the american worker out of a job. Cheap labor has destroyed the one thing that made the US strong and feared, our industry. China has that industry now and they arent anywhere near as good will or peaceful as we are.

If this continues i think you need to be prepared to have your quality of life lowered substantially to even out the US vs the rest of the world in this bullshit "Global Economy" and we are at the bottom of the totem pole for sure as the least useful in the eyes of the world. Id like to see my country returned to being number 1 in the world in industry for sure.

[01WhiteCobra]

But then again, like you said, the rules have been laid out long ago. Are we really surprised by all this?

I'm not surprised at all. Possibly because the overwhelming majority of my clients are Fortune 500 (a very large majority being the Fortune 50.) They are the only ones that can afford us. :D

We've taken great care in growing the company the way we wanted to. Hell, we've turned clients down because we didn't think they were worth the effort. It's worked well and we continue to expand (well, next year will be interesting.)

The markets are very equal between countries. Produce a better product, a lower cost product, or whatever your business model calls for and it will sell and sell well. We're in every continent except for Antarctica and their are certainly lower cost products available to our clients. We have distributors in all continents except Antarctica selling our stuff at a premium because that is our business plan... we aren't the lowest cost in our niche but we are the best in our niche. New products come out every year to compete. Some of our clients decide to use the newer products... but they always come back. We have a joke with our salespeople... if you lose a sale, don't worry, they'll come back in 6 months.

We're into intellectual property and we are the best at what we do. We charge a premium for our services and we partner with all of our clients. Hell, we've actually put employees on site at the larger companies.

Forgetting the global nature of the economy today if you didn't plan on the shift from industry to services over the past couple of decades you are dead. 70% of the GDP of THIS country is service. 30 years ago it may have been 30%.

I absolutely love intellectual property. It is something you cannot commoditize easily.

[FreightTrain]

we became the most prosperous and powerful nation in the world because we were a hard working industrial nation with a strong middle class. Thats quickly going away, we dont make shit now and the middle class is struggling to even be able to buy a house or car. Back in the 50s it wasnt uncommon for a guy to work while the wife stayed home. He worked at a manufacting company and made enough for a new house and new car and had a good savings. He also had job security and a good retirement he was working toward. That was the american dream, something ever hardworking common man could achieve. The white collar guys were the management but they had morals and intelligence to realize their sucess was built by the middle class workers they had which they respected.

Now you got greedy ass white collars who think blue collar people are idiots, thats the reason they cant make $250k a year. Then greed sets in because of access to cheap as shit labor in mexico and china. Im not saying they are all but all it takes is one greedy fuck in a market to outsource and the rest of the market has no choice but to follow or be ran out of business. Look what happened to Levi's jeans!!

I dont see how anyone can wonder why this country has gone to shit. Im so pissed off at our government for letting it happen. I agree %100 with obama, that companies that ship jobs away should be cut off from all forms of government help. They should do this to counteract the lure of outsourcing.

If they want to do business in another country, then build a fucking plant there to make product for that market and employ their people but this taking advantage of cheap labor puts the american worker out of a job. Cheap labor has destroyed the one thing that made the US strong and feared, our industry. China has that industry now and they arent anywhere near as good will or peaceful as we are......


You got it all wrong. You need to be blaming the Feminist Movement. Before them broads wanted to be equal. A man could make a decent living and have a life style that supported a house, a car, and a stay at home wife/mother. Then came the Feminist Movement where women wanted to work. Fast forward to today and it takes two incomes to barely support the lifestyles our grandparents had 50 years ago on one income.

Disclaimer: This post was made in a semi joking manner. ;)

[poopnut2]

if we KNEW our tax increase was going DIRECTLY into the paydown of the deficit, then id be for it. but not one person has said that. they want to fund the second stimulus with it.

That's what McCain is hoping for. Give big business money, and they'll relieve their prices, interest rates...whatever.

Wasn't it AIG that spent over 400,000 grand to fund an R&R trip right after the bailout was approved? Don't trust big business. It's worse than congress. Which I'll admit, Obama was for the bailout as well.

[poopnut2]

In my industry you can very easily work yourself into several higher tax brackets. What's the point of killing your self working 14hr days 7 days of week if at some point your working for less. Granted my industry isn't your average 9 to 5 m-f gig. Most folks in my industry have a certain dollar amount in mind. Once we hit that dollar amount in any given pay period we don't work until the begining of the next pay period. No point in working extra just to see it all go to the government in the form of income tax and railroad retirement. If I make 3k in two weeks I will bring home about 2,200 after everything is said and done. If I make 5k I only bring home 3k. So basicly I worked 3 days for free. I can think of a better way to spend 3 days sitting on my ass vs working to pay for some dead beat.

Working for less? You're still making a lot more at $250,000 than the average american.

Like I said before, I don't necessarily agree with the policy but maybe it's time for the wealthy to take a hit. Seriously, no offense to you. Most of the people making that much probably worked their asses off to get there. I'll be the first to admit, it's a socialism ideal, but if kept at a minimal, it's probably not going to affect the wealthy that much. They'll still have their mansion, luxury cars, etc...

[Slammy]

You got it all wrong. You need to be blaming the Feminist Movement. Before them broads wanted to be equal. A man could make a decent living and have a life style that supported a house, a car, and a stay at home wife/mother. Then came the Feminist Movement where women wanted to work. Fast forward to today and it takes two incomes to barely support the lifestyles our grandparents had 50 years ago on one income.

Disclaimer: This post was made in a semi joking manner. ;)


hhahah im very emotional about it since history is my favorite subject. I dont pretend to know everything about how the country is ran and economics but when ya look at how this country used to be how it was viewed compared to today it can get to ya.

We used to be so looked up to, we were the smartest hardest working country in the world and led by example that hard work and democracy allows common people to have a good life. I dont agree with how this country is ran now, i dont think we should be such a military based country. Ive said it before, eisenhower was so right when he left office and they didnt listen. Screw zombie reagan, we need IKE back!

[01WhiteCobra]

Like the saying goes. A poor man has never given me a job so why tax the rich into the poor house. Growing up I came from a lower middle income family. We weren't poor, but my parents sure as hell didn't buy me a new car on my 16th birthday. Before I could even vote I aligned myself with the Republican party and was very out spoken about it. Alot of my teachers and other adults thought I was nuts and would question why I would do such a thing. My response to them was " I plan on being rich when I get older"

Ya' know, I was very lucky to be born to my parents.

Neither came from money. My grandparents on my father's side had a combined education of 6 years (I'm talking one finished 2nd grade, one finished 4th grade.)

Freight, you'll love to hear my grandfather was a railroader. My dad still has his watch from the railroad sitting on his office desk at his house. It was the extent of his inheritance. Other than pictures, that was it.

The grandparents came over as immigrants from Hungary.

My dad, after HS, went straight to the USMC and fought in the Korean War. He got out and served the public as a DPS officer for a couple of year until meeting my mom. After my older brother was born he decided he couldn't raise a family on the DPS salary. He went 8 years to night school to obtain his degree in engineering. I can remember sitting up with my dad at 3 in the morning while he was studying telling him, "If this is college, I don't want any part of it."

He promised me I wouldn't have to do what he did. He made good on that promise. I helped a little with my scholarship but I always knew I had the backstop if required.

Mom, in the meantime, started her own medical transcription business that she sold after the "boys" were done with college.

When my mom and dad married they had $0. They received $0 from inheritance. They are worth a good deal now. My brothers and I made them change their will to "pass through" the inheritance to the grandchildren because they already made us "boys" rich through our upbringing.

We laugh now about mom running out to the butcher to get two slices of bologna so I could have my fried bologna sammich growing up (because mom had 50 cents in her purse.) I can remember days where ketchup sammies tasted mighty good.

I also remember when my dad was 55 and the company he worked for went bankrupt taking his 30+ year private pension along with it. It was then I made a conscious decision I would never work for anyone else in my life. I quit my job the next day with a Fortune 50 (at the time a Fortune 50, it doesn't exist anymore) and have worked for myself ever since.

Sorry for the long diatribe but I think it is important for some to see where I'm coming from. I'm coming from a situation where I did wear hand me down Rustlers from Sears with patches on my knees. My parents were very conscious and very supportive of our upbringing and sacrificed their own well-being so the next generation wouldn't have it so hard. I do the same thing with my girls. My hope is I can instill the same values in them to make the next generation a little better and so on and so on.

What I don't like is some clown like Obama telling me this isn't the way America works. My dad was among the poorest growing up but as his parents sacrificed to give my dad the best possible chance in life, my dad did the same with his boys.

I'll do the same with my girls. Of course, my girls are starting at a level a little higher than my dad or me... but to me, is the American Dream. Each successive generation being a little better off than the previous.

Obama's dream isn't my dream. Wealth redistribution is bullshit. I feel bad for many people living in South Dallas. We mission down there quite a bit. I've built many handicap ramps down there. I've served many turkey dinners at the convention center.

Hell, I've helped people down there financially that I think "get it." There is a girl currently receiving a college education she may not have had because I thought "she got it." I'm really hoping she'll return the favor x2.

I'm sure after she receives her college degree, we'll do it again and she'll give someone else "that gets it" the same opportunity.

[FreightTrain]

Working for less? You're still making a lot more at $250,000 than the average american.

Like I said before, I don't necessarily agree with the policy but maybe it's time for the wealthy to take a hit. Seriously, no offense to you. Most of the people making that much probably worked their asses off to get there. I'll be the first to admit, it's a socialism ideal, but if kept at a minimal, it's probably not going to affect the wealthy that much. They'll still have their mansion, luxury cars, etc...


I hear where your coming from, but I just don't think 200k or even 250k is considered rich. One thing to remember is never trust the government. For instance, lets say next year Obama gets congress to pass a law saying that anyone that makes over 250k is rich and they will have to pay 40 or 50% in taxes. Now let me ask you this. What happends if our trustworthy government forgets to write anything about inflation in the law. In 10 years 250k isn't going to be shit and alot more folks will be paying 40 to 50% in income tax. Don't think for one second this can't happen because it already has. When the government first started taxing social security benefits in 1984 they set the bar at 25k for a single person. Meaning that if you made over 25k they would then tax your social security benefits. Back then this didn't effect alot of people. Fast forward to today and that bar still sits at 25k. With 24 years of inflation behind the law how many folks do you think it effects today?

[Slammy]

Ya' know, I was very lucky to be born to my parents.

Neither came from money. My grandparents on my father's side had a combined education of 6 years (I'm talking one finished 2nd grade, one finished 4th grade.)

Freight, you'll love to hear my grandfather was a railroader. My dad still has his watch from the railroad sitting on his office desk at his house. It was the extent of his inheritance. Other than pictures, that was it.

The grandparents came over as immigrants from Hungary.

My dad, after HS, went straight to the USMC and fought in the Korean War. He got out and served the public as a DPS officer for a couple of year until meeting my mom. After my older brother was born he decided he couldn't raise a family on the DPS salary. He went 8 years to night school to obtain his degree in engineering. I can remember sitting up with my dad at 3 in the morning while he was studying telling him, "If this is college, I don't want any part of it."

He promised me I wouldn't have to do what he did. He made good on that promise. I helped a little with my scholarship but I always knew I had the backstop if required.

Mom, in the meantime, started her own medical transcription business that she sold after the "boys" were done with college.

When my mom and dad married they had $0. They received $0 from inheritance. They are worth a good deal now. My brothers and I made them change their will to "pass through" the inheritance to the grandchildren because they already made us "boys" rich through our upbringing.

We laugh now about mom running out to the butcher to get two slices of bologna so I could have my fried bologna sammich growing up (because mom had 50 cents in her purse.) I can remember days where ketchup sammies tasted mighty good.

I also remember when my dad was 55 and the company he worked for went bankrupt taking his 30+ year private pension along with it. It was then I made a conscious decision I would never work for anyone else in my life. I quit my job the next day with a Fortune 50 (at the time a Fortune 50, it doesn't exist anymore) and have worked for myself ever since.

Sorry for the long diatribe but I think it is important for some to see where I'm coming from. I'm coming from a situation where I did wear hand me down Rustlers from Sears with patches on my knees. My parents were very conscious and very supportive of our upbringing and sacrificed their own well-being so the next generation wouldn't have it so hard. I do the same thing with my girls. My hope is I can instill the same values in them to make the next generation a little better and so on and so on.

What I don't like is some clown like Obama telling me this isn't the way America works. My dad was among the poorest growing up but as his parents sacrificed to give my dad the best possible chance in life, my dad did the same with his boys.

I'll do the same with my girls. Of course, my girls are starting at a level a little higher than my dad or me... but to me, is the American Dream. Each successive generation being a little better off than the previous.

Obama's dream isn't my dream. Wealth redistribution is bullshit. I feel bad for many people living in South Dallas. We mission down there quite a bit. I've built many handicap ramps down there. I've served many turkey dinners at the convention center.

Hell, I've helped people down there financially that I think "get it." There is a girl currently receiving a college education she may not have had because I thought "she got it." I'm really hoping she'll return the favor x2.

I'm sure after she receives her college degree, we'll do it again and she'll give someone else "that gets it" the same opportunity.

good story about how hard work pays off for sure. That is how its supposed to work. But in todays america, a college education doesnt promise anywhere near as much.
What if your dad worked his ass for that degree and found that there were no jobs or that in todays value, only paid $40k? I have met several people with tons and tons of experience and mulitple degrees that were out of work or couldnt get a job that was worth all the hell they went though to get that education.

The problem is the lure of cheap labor outside of the US. People in india have degrees cause they get them here and then drive down the wages here because they will work for half as much. The difference in cost of living kills the american worker. The only thing that will really stay stateside is service industries and those typically dont pay shit and dont require a college degree. Then we get to hear how the illegals are here just doing the jobs americans are too lazy to do or wont do!! WTF, ummm no we simply cant live on $10 bucks on hour!

I died laughing when bush said the reason people were out of work was because they didnt have a college education and that every american needs to get a degree. For what? To work at Mcdonalds? Keep letting the jobs go away and there wont be anything left unless ya plan on moving to india for that engineering job.

Also when everyone has a degree, what do ya think thats gonna do to wages for those jobs? Thats right, go WAY down due to abundance of labor. Not everyone can be or is cut out for college, thats completely unrealistic. We need realistic solutions, not fantasies that are unattainable that even if they were would do more harm than good. The solution is simple, GET THE DAMN JOBS BACK!! ALL OF THEM! Quit giving billions to communist china and arming our enemies and second, when we have so many jobs here the illegals wont be such a damn big issue! We might actually need them more than ever to fill positions! talk about two birds with one stone. I mean really, WTF?

Thats my biggest hangup with college, i think im more than intelligent for college but to do what? What career wont be yanked out from under me after i get my life going, ive got a house, a car and a family? The security is almost completely gone and thats a big problem. I dont mind working for something but when you lose your job not because of poor work performance but because some guy in china will do it for a faction of the cost then where does that leave me?

[Slammy]

I hear where your coming from, but I just don't think 200k or even 250k is considered rich. One thing to remember is never trust the government. For instance, lets say next year Obama gets congress to pass a law saying that anyone that makes over 250k is rich and they will have to pay 40 or 50% in taxes. Now let me ask you this. What happends if our trustworthy government forgets to write anything about inflation in the law. In 10 years 250k isn't going to be shit and alot more folks will be paying 40 to 50% in income tax. Don't think for one second this can't happen because it already has. When the government first started taxing social security benefits in 1984 they set the bar at 25k for a single person. Meaning that if you made over 25k they would then tax your social security benefits. Back then this didn't effect alot of people. Fast forward to today and that bar still sits at 25k. With 24 years of inflation behind the law how many folks do you think it effects today?


amazing that our government is so on top of shit. I swear all those damned idiots need to be fire and some entirely new common sense fucking people put in charge of shit.

[01WhiteCobra]

good story about how hard work pays off for sure. That is how its supposed to work. But in todays america, a college education doesnt promise anywhere near as much.
What if your dad worked his ass for that degree and found that there were no jobs or that in todays value, only paid $40k? I have met several people with tons and tons of experience and mulitple degrees that were out of work or couldnt get a job that was worth all the hell they went though to get that education.

The problem is the lure or cheap labor outside of the US. People in india have degrees cause they get them here and then drive down the wages here because they will work for half as much. The difference in cost of living kills the american worker. The only thing that will really stay stateside is service industries and those typically dont pay shit, no where near $250k a year unless ya own a company.

Thats my biggest hangup with college, i think im more than intelligent for college but to do what? What career wont be yanked out from under me after i get my life going, ive got a house, a car and a family? The security is almost completely gone and thats a big problem. I dont mind working for something but when you lose your job not because of poor work performance but because some guy in china will do it for a faction of the cost then where does that leave me?

You don't think there were recessionary times when my dad grew up? Do you think my dad haphazardly picked chemical engineering?

As far as 250K a year without owning a company... I can point you to two brothers making 250K working for a very large company at the moment. Hell, I took the wrong road I worked longer hours. But, I do control my destiny much better and I'm sure my brothers are jealous I do it all from my house.

You want security? Don't work for someone else. Hell that rule changed many years ago.

Did you not read the story? My dad lost his job after 30+ years on the job because the company went bankrupt... along with his retirement.

While my dad never made more than 70K a year (through the early 90s) he put three kids through college and still sits on a nest egg that Obama's "New World" cannot touch. Hell, I'm impressed enough he has a chunk of my assets to invest.

He did it by himself. He read the rules of the game, studied the rules of the game, played by the rules, and profited from the game... without the help of a company pension.

If I was in my 20s again, I'd be looking at the situation in the market as a drunk sailor with his monthly pay in an Indonesian whorehouse. I WISH I was in my 20s at the moment. I'd be retired by the time I was my age now (45.)

In the coming months you will have the best opportunity to invest in stocks since 1974. Given the magic of capitalism and the rule of 72 if you 20 somethings aren't kicking ass by the time you are in your 40s... you deserve to be poor.

You "kids" now have access to much much more information than previous generations. USE IT! It isn't hard. One of the easier rules is... you don't have to have an IQ of Einstein you only need to be a few percentage points higher than the average (Las Vegas was built on 2% favor to the house.) The majority need leaders because the majority are followers.

Some get it and I've had some serious conversations in PMs about it.

My girls are well schooled in math and well schooled in game theory. Hell my 7 year old daughter is a hell of a poker player and chess player. Learn what matters. I cherish my degree in math. The degree in economics was ok, but I could have learned it on my own. I don't know if that is a clue for you but if my daughters graduate with a degree in math I'll be pretty damn excited.

[Slammy]

You don't think there were recessionary times when my dad grew up? Do you think my dad haphazardly picked chemical engineering?

As far as 250K a year without owning a company... I can point you to two brothers making 250K working for a very large company at the moment. Hell, I took the wrong road I worked longer hours. But, I do control my destiny much better and I'm sure my brothers are jealous I do it all from my house.

You want security? Don't work for someone else. Hell that rule changed many years ago.

Did you not read the story? My dad lost his job after 30+ years on the job because the company went bankrupt... along with his retirement.

While my dad never made more than 70K a year (through the early 90s) he put three kids through college and still sits on a nest egg that Obama's "New World" cannot touch. Hell, I'm impressed enough he has a chunk of my assets to invest.

He did it by himself. He read the rules of the game, studied the rules of the game, played by the rules, and profited from the game... without the help of a company pension.

If I was in my 20s again, I'd be looking at the situation in the market as a drunk sailor with his monthly pay in an Indonesian whorehouse. I WISH I was in my 20s at the moment. I'd be retired by the time I was my age now (45.)

In the coming months you will have the best opportunity to invest in stocks since 1974. Given the magic of capitalism and the rule of 72 if you 20 somethings aren't kicking ass by the time you are in your 40s... you deserve to be poor.

You "kids" now have access to much much more information than previous generations. USE IT! It isn't hard. One of the easier rules is... you don't have to have an IQ of Einstein you only need to be a few percentage points higher than the average (Las Vegas was built on 2% favor to the house.) The majority need leaders because the majority are followers.

Some get it and I've had some serious conversations in PMs about it.

First off i wasnt attacking ya or your family, didnt mean to come off that way. As for your dad losing his job, that sucks and it does happen. Atleast back then though he could take his experience and just go to a different company and probably increase his pay due to experience.

Second, id LOVE to invest if i had any money to actually spare. Im 31 and i have like $400 bucks right now to my name, fucking sucks. I do work for myself but thats another issue.

[FreightTrain]

01whitecobra


Cool story. I come from a railroad family also. My uncle spent 42 years on the railroad and he retired a millonaire. The best part is he didn't make his millions on the railroad. He made them by starting up small side business' in his spare time and by investing his money wisely. No one that works on the railroad is rich in my opinion. Granted we make above average money, but we aren't rich by any means. My parents always pushed me to better myself and to strive to be the best. The biggest problem I have with my job is no matter how good I am at my job I'm rated down to the lowest denominator. (Most folks will say that is because of the Union but save that argument for another time) That's fine for alot of folks in my line of work, but not me. I've been stock piling cash since I was 18 with the hopes of changing my family tree one day. In the not so distance future I plan on branching out and making the Railroad my part time job. I'm not about to give up the benefits or the retirement, but I don't have the mentality to be just a railroader for the next 35 years. ;)

[01WhiteCobra]

First off i wasnt attacking ya or your family, didnt mean to come off that way.

Second, id LOVE to invest if i had any money to actually spare. Im 31 and i have like $400 bucks right now to my name, fucking sucks. I do work for myself but thats another issue.

Dude, $400 is a start. You have to start somewhere.

There is http://www.sharebuilder.com and there is http://www.foliofn.com

Hell, when I was in my early thirties... I lost it all... with a wife and a first born that just celebrated her 1st birthday. When I say lost it all, I'm serious. I'm talking a year without any income, all savings invested in a company that failed, and $25 the Friday before Thanksgiving. We sold my car to pay for Christmas and startup capital for another company. A savings of 400,000 dollars... gone in 2.5 years. My wife was freaking out because she quit her job because I told her to two months earlier.

Within four months, I had another company started (sold subsequently to a bigger fish), an upgraded house and two cars. My wife hasn't worked since.

You live in the greatest country in the world for people who have ambition.

Seriously. Even now.

[GT Dan]

Dude, $400 is a start. You have to start somewhere.

There is http://www.sharebuilder.com and there is http://www.foliofn.com


Is there a book or books you would recommend for small investors? I have a sharebuilder account but its basically a buy and hold account. I don't have enough knowledge of the market to know who is telling the truth and who is full of shit...

[01WhiteCobra]

Is there a book or books you would recommend for small investors? I have a sharebuilder account but its basically a buy and hold account. I don't have enough knowledge of the market to know who is telling the truth and who is full of shit...

You can never go wrong with:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Money-Stocks-Winning/dp/0071373616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224172587&sr=8-1

-or-

http://www.amazon.com/Successful-Investor-Million-People-Profitably/dp/007142959X/ref=pd_sim_b_1

[jones4stangs]

Why is it acceptable for the government to tell an individual making more than $250K/year that he/she has too much and has to give more of that money to the goverment than someone making less than $250K/year?

Basically, someone justify redistribution of wealth to me.

It sounds like you have a problem with the whole concept of a Progressive Tax.

However, isn't a Marginal Tax Rate (Supply-side economics) just another form of a progressive tax? Sure, you have additional tax cuts for the wealthy and all, but the wealthy still end up paying a higher proportion of their income to taxes than the poor. It's not a proportional tax.

It seems to me progressive tax is acceptable because it works well.

[poopnut2]

Just did some quick math. With Obama's plan, taxing the "wealthy" 39% instead of 36%,someone making $250,000 would come out with $179,xxx. How it stands right now, that person is coming out with $183,xxx. Just an FYI. No real argument goes with this post.

[slow06]

To the people who agree with the Obama Tax Increases:

1. When will the redistribution be enough? Do you think everyone should make the same amount?

2. Obama will take money from the "rich" and give it to those that make less than them. Why do you/they have any claim to that money?

Finally,
3.What will you do when they decide they don't feel like working to pay you anymore? It sounds like they could easily decide to quit working and live off everyone else

[Palehorse]

I know if i went to the store and saw an american product and a chinese product side by side and the price was only a few dollars more for the american product i would always buy american. I have pride in my country AND i know its a better made product by a person who needs me to to buy it in order to keep their job. Instead china has got it where american companies are supposed to compete on price and that just isnt going to happen.

But you are the exception to the rule. Americans have done that to themselves, NOT the government. The American people chose to buy the cheaper products made out of country, and Americas businesses began producing them there to compete. That is the truth of it, but its not what Americans want to hear. Just like the people who made bad housing purchases don't want to hear that it is their own damn fault either.

[slow06]

But you are the exception to the rule. Americans have done that to themselves, NOT the government. The American people chose to buy the cheaper products made out of country, and Americas businesses began producing them there to compete. That is the truth of it, but its not what Americans want to hear. Just like the people who made bad housing purchases don't want to hear that it is their own damn fault either.

Wait, you mean I can't blame the big bad mortgage companies for choosing to buy a house I can't afford? Screw that. ;)

[AL P]

You live in the greatest country in the world for people who have ambition.

Seriously. Even now.

It irks me when people say we don't.

[jr347]

It irks me when people say we don't.

X2

[GT Dan]

You can never go wrong with:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Money-Stocks-Winning/dp/0071373616/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224172587&sr=8-1

-or-

http://www.amazon.com/Successful-Investor-Million-People-Profitably/dp/007142959X/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Thank You. I ordered both...

[Slammy]

But you are the exception to the rule. Americans have done that to themselves, NOT the government. The American people chose to buy the cheaper products made out of country, and Americas businesses began producing them there to compete. That is the truth of it, but its not what Americans want to hear. Just like the people who made bad housing purchases don't want to hear that it is their own damn fault either.


First off, dont think im bitching you out. This is merely a rant...

Sure, people like cheaper prices no doubt. But it was also a way for companies to get around all the laws and regulations that were made in this country to protect americans. We keep hearing more and more bad stuff about crap made in china. Companies would be ALOT more careful about trying to pull that crap here cause they could get fined all to hell. They also get out of having to provide insurance, retirement, health care...its all fucking greed, all pluses with NO negatives other than the 50,000 americans they fired but who gives a shit about them right? My mother has worked at several manufacturing jobs and been laid off a few times due to her job being shipped overseas so ive seen first hand what it does to american families.

We need to eliminate the chinese crap, put americans back to work at decent paying american manfacturing companies and the middle class will prosper...it worked for us for decades before and has been a downward spiral ever since. I really dont see how its hard to understand. If it was fair competition, we would do very well against other countries but not china. We cannot compete with labor for 50 cents a day compared to american worker wages... its not even close.

Its the reason this country is going to shit and something needs to be done about it. Facts are facts, industry made america strong and built this country. Other countries where VERY envious of america, china came up with a plan to take away americas power and succeded. The lure of vast profits and cheap labor is irresistible to companies and once the snow ball started we couldnt stop it. Mass exodus of good paying jobs went to china. One company might start it in a given market and their competition has no choice but to follow in order to be competitive.

China has been using the money to build up their military, its def not going to the common citizen and this time we wont have the industry we had which enabled us to defeat germany in WW2. They will have the advantage we had back then. People think our technology will protect us....that didnt work out too well for the germans in WW2 and they were LIGHT years ahead of anything we had. I suspect china will invade taiwan sooner or later and will tell us to go fuck ourselves when we object.

Plus china is a fucking communist country, WTF are we doing business with them in the first place? How many hundreds of thousands of people died trying to overcome communism? They talk about how we needed to go into iraq cause human rights, china is the worst violator of all time..its all a crock.

[Palehorse]

First off, dont think im bitching you out. This is merely a rant...

Sure, people like cheaper prices no doubt. But it was also a way for companies to get around all the laws and regulations that were made in this country to protect americans. We keep hearing more and more bad stuff about crap made in china. Companies would be ALOT more careful about trying to pull that crap here cause they could get fined all to hell. They also get out of having to provide insurance, retirement, health care...its all fucking greed, all pluses with NO negatives other than the 50,000 americans they fired but who gives a shit about them right? My mother has worked at several manufacturing jobs and been laid off a few times due to her job being shipped overseas so ive seen first hand what it does to american families.

We need to eliminate the chinese crap, put americans back to work at decent paying american manfacturing companies and the middle class will prosper...it worked for us for decades before and has been a downward spiral ever since. I really dont see how its hard to understand. If it was fair competition, we would do very well against other countries but not china. We cannot compete with labor for 50 cents a day compared to american worker wages... its not even close.

Its the reason this country is going to shit and something needs to be done about it. Facts are facts, industry made america strong and built this country. Other countries where VERY envious of america, china came up with a plan to take away americas power and succeded. The lure of vast profits and cheap labor is irresistible to companies and once the snow ball started we couldnt stop it. Mass exodus of good paying jobs went to china. One company might start it in a given market and their competition has no choice but to follow in order to be competitive.

China has been using the money to build up their military, its def not going to the common citizen and this time we wont have the industry we had which enabled us to defeat germany in WW2. They will have the advantage we had back then. People think our technology will protect us....that didnt work out too well for the germans in WW2 and they were LIGHT years ahead of anything we had. I suspect china will invade taiwan sooner or later and will tell us to go fuck ourselves when we object.

Plus china is a fucking communist country, WTF are we doing business with them in the first place? How many hundreds of thousands of people died trying to overcome communism? They talk about how we needed to go into iraq cause human rights, china is the worst violator of all time..its all a crock.


I'm not going to disagree with much, except that companies didn't only start moving manufacturing there because of greed. They moved it there because the American people were buying the cheaper products they could get from there and not buying the more expensive American made products. Whether the company shuts down, or moves the jobs to China to be able to compete, Americans still lose their jobs due to their own short-sightedness. The point here is that it is the irresponsibility of the American citizen that put us here, and that only the American citizen can bring us back. Not the government.

One more thing is certain, and that is that increasing taxes on Americas corporations will only drive more jobs overseas as companies work to maintain profitability and shareholder return.

[AL P]

china is the worst violator of all time

Meh, not even close.

[bullet]

First of all we have a progressive tax system in this country.

Under Obama it is a much much more progressive tax increase.

Again, you are missing the point.

I'll guarantee you I'm not losing "12,500" next year unless sales are down. My employees will lose, as a whole, $12,500 because they ain't getting raises.

Shit rolls down hill.


If poor people get more money they just spend it and all the business owners make even more money. If the rich are allowed to keep the money, they save it which will not help the economy or other small business make more profit. So your taxes might go up but if your net goes up more than the offset of your higher taxes then what is the problem ? Cutting taxes on the rich does not work .The money does not trickle down when those that have it save it instead of using it to stimulate the economy. Reagan proved how worthless that concept was for 8 years.

[Palehorse]

If poor people get more money they just spend it and all the business owners make even more money. If the rich are allowed to keep the money, they save it which will not help the economy or other small business make more profit. So your taxes might go up but if your net goes up more than the offset of your higher taxes then what is the problem ? Cutting taxes on the rich does not work .The money does not trickle down when those that have it save it instead of using it to stimulate the economy. Reagan proved how worthless that concept was for 8 years.

haha, way to have a clue man

[Slammy]

I cant blame the citizens. Its a circle started by the companies. As i said, one company decided to outsource their manufacturing in order to get ahead of their competition. Competition in american capitlism was based of who made the better product, which had better/more features, price was relative and not just who had the cheaper price. Dirt cheap prices was a dynamic american businesses cant handle. Youre right that people started buying the cheap shit but the products shouldnt have even made it on the market with prices that were completely uncompetitive for american companies. They were doomed to failure unless they to outsource....thats what i mean by the chinese came up with the perfect plan to ruin america as a country.

Its spiraled down from there. American goods only became too expensive when americans started losing their good paying jobs. Most americans were damn proud to buy american made products. I say the companies started it hence thats where my greed arguement comes from. The greed and desire to compete unfairly with the other american businesses is what pushed them to bring chinese made products into the market.

As for fixing it, there is NOTHING the citizens can do...nothing at all. EVERYTHING is made in china now. Sure you can buy a few things american made but the price is usually too high for the common citizen. China really has the US by the balls and i think the government needs to start playing hardball with these countries.

Obama mentioned something in the debate i had heard about a year ago with south korea. They bring hundreds of thousands of cars here and only allow a few thousand of ours in...WTF is that? I agree with obama, that is most def NOT free trade in any sense. This is the kind of deals that have been made which do NOTHING to benefit the US. My head wants to explode when i think about it. Why would we agree to this? Why wouldnt the president tell them to go fuck themselves? I dont understand, do they not want americans to have jobs and good lives? Most other countries look after there own, in america everything is for sale and its all about ME ME ME. Thats sad, we have historic american landmarks being bought by foreigners as soverniers of what a powerful country american USED to be.

I just dont see how any kind of trade with china can work. The common chinese is too poor to ever afford anything made in the US. Look at the music, movie and software piracy going on over there. Its not a underground thing at all, the malls are loaded with it! I believe it was universal that dropped the price of their DVDs to a few dollars to combat piracy while we get ass raped at $20-25 a pop.

Why do we have to pay out the ass and they get it for nothing? Its not a life necessity, if they cant afford it TOUGH. Maybe they should stand up to their corrupt ass government and demand a democracy like the US so they can have nice things like the hard working americans. Instead we support their government that keeps its people at the bottom of the barrel.

Our government really needs to slam their fist down and say this is bullshit. We buy tons of shit from you and you steal every damn thing you can from us yet they turn a blind eye and say and do nothing. Thats probably because they know they have no control over their own country. All its doing is making companies and CEOs rich...something has to change.

I actually agree %100 with obamas plan as ive been saying for years. If you ship jobs overseas, your government tax breaks and incentives are GONE! All of it! I think a policy of, if you want to do business in this country then you must employ its people is required. Kinda like how the japanese automakers do. I hear that argument all the time about how their cars are made here by americans, its a better deal than we got now in other markets thats for sure! Ok im done, this really pisses me off. Sorry for ranting.

[bullet]

Just did some quick math. With Obama's plan, taxing the "wealthy" 39% instead of 36%,someone making $250,000 would come out with $179,xxx. How it stands right now, that person is coming out with $183,xxx. Just an FYI. No real argument goes with this post.


So basically they will only have 15k to pay their monthly nut instead of 15,300.



I know a couple who has notes on 2 vehicles, 2 student loans, a boat and a 300k mortgage and their total monthly expense are only $5800 with $3800 of that going to monthly payments. I would to think that someone bringing 15k home after tax would be able to have paid cash for all of the items on note and their living expense would only be roughly 2k a month. There are no kids figured in the above. But let's add 2k more for 2 kids in highschool and college. There monthly outlay would then be 7800 allowing them to save 7200 a month or 86,400 a year. Once the kids are gone their expenses will drop way back down to 2000. Now figure on being retired at age 40 and needing 50 years of income. After just 10 years of saving 86 k a year in a risk free investment only paying 5% they will have 860k plus the interest it has earned. By then this will at least 900k. Let's be ultra conservative here. 900k at 5% will get you 45k a year risk free. Even 45k annually before tax should be plenty for this couple to live off of without touching the initial investment. The problem with the 250k example is what these people earn and invest in 10 years is equal to a 100k a year working 25 years to accomplish. FWIW the couple mentioned above actually only makes 82k a year but are still able to save $500 a month even with that large debtload. What I am getting at is once you have your needs paid for, the cost to live is really not that much and someone making 15k a month after tax is not really going to be affected by paying $300 a month more in tax.

[bullet]

Does that make it better?

No worries. I'm make my money. The kids will be taken care of. When they leave for college mine and my wife's ass are headed to the Isle Of Man with their 16% tax rate. I've played this game long enough and I'm smart enough to maximize my benefit.

.


How do you plan on dissoving your U.S. citizenship in order to avoid US income tax ?

[bullet]

I cant blame the citizens. Its a circle started by the companies. As i said, one company decided to outsource their manufacturing in order to get ahead of their competition. Competition in american capitlism was based of who made the better product, which had better/more features, price was relative and not just who had the cheaper price. Dirt cheap prices was a dynamic american businesses cant handle. Youre right that people started buying the cheap shit but the products shouldnt have even made it on the market with prices that were completely uncompetitive for american companies. They were doomed to failure unless they to outsource....thats what i mean by the chinese came up with the perfect plan to ruin america as a country.

Its spiraled down from there. American goods only became too expensive when americans started losing their good paying jobs. Most americans were damn proud to buy american made products. I say the companies started it hence thats where my greed arguement comes from. The greed and desire to compete unfairly with the other american businesses is what pushed them to bring chinese made products into the market.

As for fixing it, there is NOTHING the citizens can do...nothing at all. EVERYTHING is made in china now. Sure you can buy a few things american made but the price is usually too high for the common citizen. China really has the US by the balls and i think the government needs to start playing hardball with these countries.

Obama mentioned something in the debate i had heard about a year ago with south korea. They bring hundreds of thousands of cars here and only allow a few thousand of ours in...WTF is that? I agree with obama, that is most def NOT free trade in any sense. This is the kind of deals that have been made which do NOTHING to benefit the US. My head wants to explode when i think about it. Why would we agree to this? Why wouldnt the president tell them to go fuck themselves? I dont understand, do they not want americans to have jobs and good lives? Most other countries look after there own, in america everything is for sale and its all about ME ME ME. Thats sad, we have historic american landmarks being bought by foreigners as soverniers of what a powerful country american USED to be.

I just dont see how any kind of trade with china can work. The common chinese is too poor to ever afford anything made in the US. Look at the music, movie and software piracy going on over there. Its not a underground thing at all, the malls are loaded with it! I believe it was universal that dropped the price of their DVDs to a few dollars to combat piracy while we get ass raped at $20-25 a pop.

Why do we have to pay out the ass and they get it for nothing? Its not a life necessity, if they cant afford it TOUGH. Maybe they should stand up to their corrupt ass government and demand a democracy like the US so they can have nice things like the hard working americans. Instead we support their government that keeps its people at the bottom of the barrel.

Our government really needs to slam their fist down and say this is bullshit. We buy tons of shit from you and you steal every damn thing you can from us yet they turn a blind eye and say and do nothing. Thats probably because they know they have no control over their own country. All its doing is making companies and CEOs rich...something has to change.

I actually agree %100 with obamas plan as ive been saying for years. If you ship jobs overseas, your government tax breaks and incentives are GONE! All of it! I think a policy of, if you want to do business in this country then you must employ its people is required. Kinda like how the japanese automakers do. I hear that argument all the time about how their cars are made here by americans, its a better deal than we got now in other markets thats for sure! Ok im done, this really pisses me off. Sorry for ranting.



From an economic standpoint it would not make that much of a difference. If everything was made here, sure there would be more manufacturing jobs that would pay high with the union up in them but along with these high wages would come a higher price for everything you buy from computers to nikes to your automobile. What good is it if your wages increase 50% but all of the products you now buy have increased 100% in price ? These other countries have a comparative advantage over the United States. They have so much cheap labor willing and available where in the U.S. a lot of people will only work for much more than they are really worth due to their ego. Money talks and the majority will almost always buy a cheaper alternative given the choice.

[AL P]

If poor people get more money they just spend it and all the business owners make even more money. If the rich are allowed to keep the money, they save it which will not help the economy or other small business make more profit. So your taxes might go up but if your net goes up more than the offset of your higher taxes then what is the problem ? Cutting taxes on the rich does not work .The money does not trickle down when those that have it save it instead of using it to stimulate the economy. Reagan proved how worthless that concept was for 8 years.

You have missed the point of the economy which is value creation. In order to do that you have to produce something, either a good or a service. Typically that means you need jobs. A guy working at McDonald's isn't creating jobs. If he gets a tax break of $300 he may buy a new TV. Thanks to our global economy, the TV is made in China, I'm not sure how sending most of the $300 to China is doing anything for us here.

Rather than 10,000 McDonald's workers get a taxbreak, I'd rather one guy get a $3 million tax break and decide to open an IT business employing 15 people, selling its services to domestic and more importantly, foreign, companies and generating revenue as well as wages for the employees.

Of course people who can't grasp economic theory don't believe in "trickle down" economics. Chiefly because they think if everyone isn't getting a handout then it isn't working. That's the bad part about the idea, the lazy slobs that make up the vast majority of the bottom of the economy still have to work for what they get and they really do hate that fact.

[Stevo]

How do you plan on dissoving your U.S. citizenship in order to avoid US income tax ?


You do not have to pay taxes in the US if you are not a resident of the US.

Stevo

[Palehorse]

I cant blame the citizens. Its a circle started by the companies. As i said, one company decided to outsource their manufacturing in order to get ahead of their competition. Competition in american capitlism was based of who made the better product, which had better/more features, price was relative and not just who had the cheaper price. Dirt cheap prices was a dynamic american businesses cant handle. Youre right that people started buying the cheap shit but the products shouldnt have even made it on the market with prices that were completely uncompetitive for american companies. They were doomed to failure unless they to outsource....thats what i mean by the chinese came up with the perfect plan to ruin america as a country.

Its spiraled down from there. American goods only became too expensive when americans started losing their good paying jobs. Most americans were damn proud to buy american made products. I say the companies started it hence thats where my greed arguement comes from. The greed and desire to compete unfairly with the other american businesses is what pushed them to bring chinese made products into the market.

As for fixing it, there is NOTHING the citizens can do...nothing at all. EVERYTHING is made in china now. Sure you can buy a few things american made but the price is usually too high for the common citizen. China really has the US by the balls and i think the government needs to start playing hardball with these countries.

Obama mentioned something in the debate i had heard about a year ago with south korea. They bring hundreds of thousands of cars here and only allow a few thousand of ours in...WTF is that? I agree with obama, that is most def NOT free trade in any sense. This is the kind of deals that have been made which do NOTHING to benefit the US. My head wants to explode when i think about it. Why would we agree to this? Why wouldnt the president tell them to go fuck themselves? I dont understand, do they not want americans to have jobs and good lives? Most other countries look after there own, in america everything is for sale and its all about ME ME ME. Thats sad, we have historic american landmarks being bought by foreigners as soverniers of what a powerful country american USED to be.

I just dont see how any kind of trade with china can work. The common chinese is too poor to ever afford anything made in the US. Look at the music, movie and software piracy going on over there. Its not a underground thing at all, the malls are loaded with it! I believe it was universal that dropped the price of their DVDs to a few dollars to combat piracy while we get ass raped at $20-25 a pop.

Why do we have to pay out the ass and they get it for nothing? Its not a life necessity, if they cant afford it TOUGH. Maybe they should stand up to their corrupt ass government and demand a democracy like the US so they can have nice things like the hard working americans. Instead we support their government that keeps its people at the bottom of the barrel.

Our government really needs to slam their fist down and say this is bullshit. We buy tons of shit from you and you steal every damn thing you can from us yet they turn a blind eye and say and do nothing. Thats probably because they know they have no control over their own country. All its doing is making companies and CEOs rich...something has to change.

I actually agree %100 with obamas plan as ive been saying for years. If you ship jobs overseas, your government tax breaks and incentives are GONE! All of it! I think a policy of, if you want to do business in this country then you must employ its people is required. Kinda like how the japanese automakers do. I hear that argument all the time about how their cars are made here by americans, its a better deal than we got now in other markets thats for sure! Ok im done, this really pisses me off. Sorry for ranting.

I know its easier to blame the companies, the government, etc...No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. The fact is that if there was no demand for less expensive products, companies wouldn't have started outsourcing. If people hadn't purchased those items, it would have stopped there.

[AL P]

So basically they will only have 15k to pay their monthly nut instead of 15,300.



I know a couple who has notes on 2 vehicles, 2 student loans, a boat and a 300k mortgage and their total monthly expense are only $5800 with $3800 of that going to monthly payments. I would to think that someone bringing 15k home after tax would be able to have paid cash for all of the items on note and their living expense would only be roughly 2k a month. There are no kids figured in the above. But let's add 2k more for 2 kids in highschool and college. There monthly outlay would then be 7800 allowing them to save 7200 a month or 86,400 a year. Once the kids are gone their expenses will drop way back down to 2000. Now figure on being retired at age 40 and needing 50 years of income. After just 10 years of saving 86 k a year in a risk free investment only paying 5% they will have 860k plus the interest it has earned. By then this will at least 900k. Let's be ultra conservative here. 900k at 5% will get you 45k a year risk free. Even 45k annually before tax should be plenty for this couple to live off of without touching the initial investment. The problem with the 250k example is what these people earn and invest in 10 years is equal to a 100k a year working 25 years to accomplish. FWIW the couple mentioned above actually only makes 82k a year but are still able to save $500 a month even with that large debtload. What I am getting at is once you have your needs paid for, the cost to live is really not that much and someone making 15k a month after tax is not really going to be affected by paying $300 a month more in tax.

Someone making $15,000 a month net is going to pay an ASSLOAD of taxes already, even with two kids. Unless they have a business or capital loss, I'm talking about roughly $23,000 a year in federal income taxes when it is all said and done.

It amuses me that people can try to rationalize that situation when there are people out there who don't pay a fucking dime.

[slow06]

Does that make it better?

Hell no.

No worries. I'm make my money. The kids will be taken care of. When they leave for college mine and my wife's ass are headed to the Isle Of Man with their 16% tax rate. I've played this game long enough and I'm smart enough to maximize my benefit.


I saw a documentary last night about the Isle of Man and the TT. That place looks amazing, especially if you are a biker.

[01WhiteCobra]

How do you plan on dissoving your U.S. citizenship in order to avoid US income tax ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate

Now, I'm not saying I'm doing it if Obama gets elected and starts taxing the hell out of me.

But 16% personal income tax will look mighty good to me after I retire.

I still think America gives an enterprising individual the best chance in the world to succeed (whatever your definition of success is.)

[01WhiteCobra]

someone making 15k a month after tax is not really going to be affected by paying $300 a month more in tax.

Rabid horseshit.

Lets see... lets say this 15K/month couple are both 33 years old. They have 32 years until retirement.

Lets use a conservative 8.5% estimated annual pre-retirement yield.

At 65, that 300 a month, becomes 145,000 for retirement. A less conservative 10% (which is realistic) and the amount is 204,000.

Stop thinking about what 300 a month buys in terms of going out to dinner or buying new shoes. Think about what it means to you 30 years from now.

[bullet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate

Now, I'm not saying I'm doing it if Obama gets elected and starts taxing the hell out of me.

But 16% personal income tax will look mighty good to me after I retire.

I still think America gives an enterprising individual the best chance in the world to succeed (whatever your definition of success is.)


You can not dissovle your US citizenship to avoid taxes.


http://www.taxmeless.com/page4.html


It sounds good on paper but how will you be able to travel back without a passport in order to visit your children or grandchildren ?

[bullet]

You have missed the point of the economy which is value creation. In order to do that you have to produce something, either a good or a service. Typically that means you need jobs. A guy working at McDonald's isn't creating jobs. If he gets a tax break of $300 he may buy a new TV. Thanks to our global economy, the TV is made in China, I'm not sure how sending most of the $300 to China is doing anything for us here.

Rather than 10,000 McDonald's workers get a taxbreak, I'd rather one guy get a $3 million tax break and decide to open an IT business employing 15 people, selling its services to domestic and more importantly, foreign, companies and generating revenue as well as wages for the employees.

Of course people who can't grasp economic theory don't believe in "trickle down" economics. Chiefly because they think if everyone isn't getting a handout then it isn't working. That's the bad part about the idea, the lazy slobs that make up the vast majority of the bottom of the economy still have to work for what they get and they really do hate that fact.


How is china getting most of the $300 from a tv you bought at best buy ? First off it has to get shipped here. I am sure there are tariffs that china has to pay to do that. Then from the port they have to pay an American company to transport it to the store. Then another american is paid to stock the merchandise and another is paid comission after they sell it to you. It is not like I can go online and order a TV straight from china and it gets shipped to my front door by passing all of the people who get a financial benefit out of the purchase. If trickle down theory worked then why did the national debt go from 1 trillion to 3 trillion under reagan while the economy and stock market did virtually nothing ?



Because the money was not spent by the rich who benefitted from the failed theory.




The problem with your 3 million dollar example is how many jobs get created when they hire the 15 people out of India at 50 cents an hour in order to be more competetive and profitable than the other companies ? In return the other companies are either forced to fold or outsource as well and even more jobs are lost in the U.S. We live in the greatest county in the world but with greed and competition being the central theme of capitialism, we will always have to deal with the consequences.

[bullet]

Rabid horseshit.

Lets see... lets say this 15K/month couple are both 33 years old. They have 32 years until retirement.

Lets use a conservative 8.5% estimated annual pre-retirement yield.

At 65, that 300 a month, becomes 145,000 for retirement. A less conservative 10% (which is realistic) and the amount is 204,000.

Stop thinking about what 300 a month buys in terms of going out to dinner or buying new shoes. Think about what it means to you 30 years from now.



Horseshit ? We are talking about a couple who make 250k a year, their expenses are 2k a month and they bring home 15,300 monthly after tax. Why and they hell do they need to wait 32 years to retire when their income exceeds their expenses by 13k a month ? You can even go out of your way and assume they are in full debt and their expenses are 7800 a month with 2 kids in college and they still have 7200 left to save every month or 84k a year compounded at an ultra conservative 5% a year will still give them 45k income after only 10 years of savings. You are the big baller. Why do you continue to bust your ass if you already have all the money ? 1 mill in the bank and debt free with only a 5% safe return still gives you plenty to retire on after only 10 years of making 250k a year.

[bullet]

First of all we have a progressive tax system in this country.

Under Obama it is a much much more progressive tax increase.

Again, you are missing the point.

I'll guarantee you I'm not losing "12,500" next year unless sales are down. My employees will lose, as a whole, $12,500 because they ain't getting raises.

Shit rolls down hill.



Do you think your employees will care that you are paying them as a whole 12,500 less when the govt will be giving each one a credit that totals more than that ?

Say you have 25 employees and because you have to to pay 12,500 more in tax you do not give them each a 500 dollar raise for the next year. Why will they care if they are getting an extra $1000 credit from the govt ?

So yea you got to keep your 12,500 but you also get to pay even more tax on it while they reap a higher tax free benefit.