Biden: Paying higher taxes is patriotic

[Sean88gt]

Can someone tell me how charging those who provide the majority of work and jobs more is going to put more money in the pockets of the middle class?
I see unemployment of 10% or greater under an Obama administration because those with money keep having their incentives to succeed punished.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_el_pr/biden_taxes

[JP135]

Paying higher taxes is patriotic.

It would take a team of writers at least a week to come up with a more absurd statement than that.

[Sean88gt]

I'm beginning to think that Obama didn't want to win in the first place.

[sc281_99-0135]

Can someone tell me how charging those who provide the majority of work and jobs more is going to put more money in the pockets of the middle class?
I see unemployment of 10% or greater under an Obama administration because those with money keep having their incentives to succeed punished.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_el_pr/biden_taxes


i almost want him to win and put this in place so the american people can find out first hand how much of a fraud these two guys are.

it makes me sick that they think the ROBIN HOOD TAX will do any better than the robin hood plan for our schools.

take from the rich schools, (why are they rich?, because successful people donate and pay property taxes to fund THAT school.) and give to the poor schools (whay are they poor you ask? because lazy ass people that dont want to work for what they have end up not paying taxes because they make 20,000 dollars annual household income, live in section 8 housing, and think its cool to drop out of high school inthe 10th grade and SLING ROCK!)

so we turn a great school for kids and a shitty school for kids into TWO SHITTY SCHOOLS FOR KIDS!!! why the fuck am i gonna pay my tax money to perpetuate THAT!

see how badly that has failed???, so why in the fuck does he think this is going to have some sort of MAGICAL affect on the country?

itll seem like magic when unemployment skyrockets though ;)

[AL P]

I like the part where 250K a year makes you "rich".

[Sean88gt]

I like the part where 250K a year makes you "rich".

No shit. That plants one in the successful business owner or hard working category.

Mark Cuban = Rich.

[jones4stangs]

I like the part where 250K a year makes you "rich".
250K should put you up in the upper 5% of USA household income.

[AL P]

250K should put you up in the upper 5% of USA household income.

And that means they owe everybody else, am I right!!?? Let's go take their stuff!!

[AL P]

No shit. That plants one in the successful business owner or hard working category.

Mark Cuban = Rich.

Exactly. Its not like people at that income level have Butlers and sit around talking eating caviar all day. That's a load of nonsense.

[Sgt Beavis]

In most of Louisiana $250K a year would seem to be "rich" because of the lower cost of living. However in most parts of California you would be middle class at best. Hell in San Fran that kind of income means you can afford to live in a small house.

Biden and Obama's campaign bus must be short and yellow. How stupid is it to flat out admit you ARE GOING TO raise taxes. If they were smart, and they aren't, they would say that they are going to make the budget as fiscally lean as they possibly can then raise taxes ONLY if they need to be. Of course it is bullshit but that would be the smart way to run their campaign.

From what I'm seeing, it looks like they are going to let Bush's tax cuts simply expire. The problem is they are going to push for more revenue at a time when the country is seeing high inflation and a souring economy. Those two love to tell us how incomes have been going down over the last 8 years but they fail to mention how their policies are going to change that.

[Casper]

How stupid is it to flat out admit you ARE GOING TO raise taxes.

He's being advised by Walter Mondale.

"Mr. Reagan will raise taxes, and so will I. He won't tell you. I just did."

-Fritz Mondale 1984 convention speech

You can see how that worked out.

[Big Thumper]

When I think of patriotism, I think of going to war for your country...not paying taxes.

[01WhiteCobra]

250K should put you up in the upper 5% of USA household income.

And?

250K would put you in the one percent range of tax payers.

You would also be part of the group that pays 29% of all tax receipts... before Biden's stupid call to become a patriot and pay more.

[AdamLX]

250K should put you up in the upper 5% of USA household income.

EDIT: 01WC just added what I was stating.

$250K household income is the top 1% or less of america and they pay almost 30% of tax receipts.

[FSON]

PATRIOTIC

Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Adj. 1. patriotic - inspired by love for your country
loyal
loyal - steadfast in allegiance or duty; "loyal subjects"; "loyal friends stood by him"
disloyal, unpatriotic - showing lack of love for your country

My love for country inspires me to vote Republican.

[Yale]

Successful small business owners = the true middle class. Those of us just slugging it out for a wage are today's serfs.

[Sean88gt]

Exactly. Its not like people at that income level have Butlers and sit around talking eating caviar all day. That's a load of nonsense.
Speak for yourself Al! I'm a fancy man that enjoys the finer things in life, and when I can't afford to enjoy those things, do I cut back? Hell no! Credit Advisors from Visa/MC/Amex and discover help me to live that top 5% lifestyle!

[jones4stangs]

And?

250K would put you in the one percent range of tax payers.

You would also be part of the group that pays 29% of all tax receipts... before Biden's stupid call to become a patriot and pay more.
The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
Adam Smith
http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/won-b5-c2-article-1-ss3.htm

[AL P]

Fuck the poor. They need to come mow my god damned lawn.

[flashstang04]

So we have one guy that wants to be so patriotic that raising taxes is going to be civic duty..


On the other hand we have a guy so UN-patriotic that he won't put his hand over his heart during the national anthem so as to not to offend..... lmao


If these fools get elected, God help us.......

[Paladin]

So the rich should pay more while the people who are not paying anything at all should continue to not pay taxes? Yeah, that makes sense........liberal sense.

[Dacotua]

Under Obama, if you make 250k+, be believes you should pay a 40% tax rate. You'll go from 250k to 150k (You'll owe 100k in taxes). Not exactly fair.

What I FREAKING HATE, is the silly EIC. People go out, claim 8 exemptions, have 2 kids and make under 30k a year. They pay NO TAXES and get a freaking 5k WELFARE REFUND.

[Vertnut]

Please remember they are allowing Bush's tax cuts to expire, so EVERYONE"S taxes are going up. I don't give a shit what they call it, taxes are going up for ALL OF US. What Barry does will be stacked on top of that. God help the foilks AND small businesses that gross $250k a year.

[Paladin]

Under Obama, if you make 250k+, be believes you should pay a 40% tax rate. You'll go from 250k to 150k (You'll owe 100k in taxes). Not exactly fair.

What I FREAKING HATE, is the silly EIC. People go out, claim 8 exemptions, have 2 kids and make under 30k a year. They pay NO TAXES and get a freaking 5k WELFARE REFUND.

This why the EIC (earned income credit) is now being called the UIC (unearned income credit). You get money back even if you didn't earn it! :confused:

[1fastdem]

Please remember they are allowing Bush's tax cuts to expire, so EVERYONE"S taxes are going up. I don't give a shit what they call it, taxes are going up for ALL OF US. What Barry does will be stacked on top of that. God help the foilks AND small businesses that gross $250k a year.

I ran the numbers for both McCains and Obamas plans as pulled from their sites. I save about $900-$1000 more with Obama than I do now with the famed Bush Cuts. PS- solidly middle class, married, kid in college.

[Slowhand]

I ran the numbers for both McCains and Obamas plans as pulled from their sites. I save about $900-$1000 more with Obama than I do now with the famed Bush Cuts. PS- solidly middle class, married, kid in college.

If you wouldn't mind sharing those numbers, I might believe you.

[Mustangman_2000]

I actually think that is a very cool statement and I applaud it. That's because sound bites like that put McCain just that much closer to the White House.

I say keep 'em coming.

[1fastdem]

If you wouldn't mind sharing those numbers, I might believe you.

1st - the work tax credit offsets the increase from the Bush cuts expiring.
2nd - don't have capital gains to speak of. The ol' saving account doesn't get a big return.
3rd - buy health insurance outside of my job. I'd get a credit on that as well as the current deduction off of income.
4th - If I included the college credit it would have been even better. But I didn't because I think my kiddo is not a dependent this year so that would go to her. If I wanted to post a big number I'd have added that credit.

[Paladin]

If you wouldn't mind sharing those numbers, I might believe you.

Good luck with that, it would too easy to disprove. I bet the numbers never get posted.

[Paladin]

1st - the work tax credit offsets the increase from the Bush cuts expiring.
2nd - don't have capital gains to speak of. The ol' saving account doesn't get a big return.
3rd - buy health insurance outside of my job. I'd get a credit on that as well as the current deduction off of income.
4th - If I included the college credit it would have been even better. But I didn't because I think my kiddo is not a dependent this year so that would go to her. If I wanted to post a big number I'd have added that credit.

So you basically admit you are going to benefit from the income redistribution the rest of us are paying for, correct? The bottom half (you) benefits by getting money redistributed from the upper 10% (my household income is about 110K since my wife started working PT this year) and that makes you feel good how?

I once asked my brother, a major liberal and supporter of socialism and redistribution of wealth like you and Obama, if he felt so strongly about paying more taxes why he didn't write a check or send in his rebate checks from Bush's tax cuts. He didn't want to pay more taxes, he just wanted the "wealthy people who have capital gains to pay more taxes." I then mentioned how my wife and I paid capital gains taxes from her inheritance money investments and wondered why he wanted me to pay more and not him. He decided I was being hostile and left the room. LOL

[1fastdem]

So you basically admit you are going to benefit from the income redistribution the rest of us are paying for, correct? The bottom half (you) benefits by getting money redistributed from the upper 10% (my household income is about 110K since my wife started working PT this year) and that makes you feel good how?

Didn't say I cared how your situation is. You want to pay as little as possible so do I. If one plan save me from paying $900-$1000, I plan on supporting it. I am no worse than you or anyone else. I could care less where it comes from. You, Exxon, anywhere. (PS- Fam income ~80K, kid in college, kid in HS, wife works and takes a couple courses and TCC.) The Bush cuts benefited some people with investments and high incomes more than those like me. So now it comes back to me. I am fine with that. No tax program is set to give, say, 5% reduction across the board to everyone. That would be fair. A flat tax would be fair (see Forbes). But that won't happen. I am nothing if not practical. It is a zero-sum game.

Answer me this. Are you a Biden patriot? No, you are not. You don't support a plan where you'd pay more. Why should I?

[1fastdem]

It is easy in here to get caught up in the labels 'income redistribution' 'socialism' ' communist'. Some want to label things. I just want to pay the least amount of taxes. Make no mistake I pay, but who are others who say it is wrong of me to want to pay less. Those same people were happy to pay less with the bush cuts. Their paying less then was pro-business, pro-investment. Forget that I have seen in the last 6 months pro-business. I sure am glad that I am having to bail out the capital-gains tax crowd. :mad: I am now pro middle class... pro me!

I would suggest actually looking at the plans. Palidin and his wife make $110K per his post. He says the Bush Cuts are good for him. If you make 110K then maybe they are good for you. The wife and I make less than that, around 80K (to be fair to Palidin). Obama's plan helps me keep more of my money. If you are around me maybe it will be good for you. I suggest looking at the plans on their website. Run the numbers.

[Magnus]

It is easy in here to get caught up in the labels 'income redistribution' 'socialism' ' communist'. Some want to label things. I just want to pay the least amount of taxes. Make no mistake I pay, but who are others who say it is wrong of me to want to pay less. Those same people were happy to pay less with the bush cuts. Their paying less then was pro-business, pro-investment. Forget that I have seen in the last 6 months pro-business. I sure am glad that I am having to bail out the capital-gains tax crowd. :mad: I am now pro middle class... pro me!

I would suggest actually looking at the plans. Palidin and his wife make $110K per his post. He says the Bush Cuts are good for him. If you make 110K then maybe they are good for you. The wife and I make less than that, around 80K (to be fair to Palidin). Obama's plan helps me keep more of my money. If you are around me maybe it will be good for you. I suggest looking at the plans on their website. Run the numbers.
You could of just said you're a selfish bastard with no care in the world as to the direction our country heads. That'd of been the same thing.

Taxes is by far NOT the reason i won't be voting for Obama. Mccain could tell me he's doubling my taxes, and when i'd compared to the other plans Osama wants to begin, and what he plans on doing with the tax money he will be bringing in, i'd still vote for mccain.

[Vertnut]

I ran the numbers for both McCains and Obamas plans as pulled from their sites. I save about $900-$1000 more with Obama than I do now with the famed Bush Cuts. PS- solidly middle class, married, kid in college.
You and I both know that Barry can't make those numbers work. You're smarter than that...

[1fastdem]

You and I both know that Barry can't make those numbers work. You're smarter than that...

Vertnut - On one hand you are right. Both plans are 'pie in the sky'. On the other hand, the only way to compare their plans is to run the numbers. Neither of us can say for sure what parts of their tax plans will happen. If McCain gets all of his tax plan I pay X and if Obama gets all of his tax plan I pay Y. So why would I support a tax plan where, in their perfect world, I pay more? I don't expect you to. I am not a Biden patriot. I don't expect you to be one either.

Magnus - You can insult me. I have not done the same to you but I don't care. You cannot argue with my reason for supporting a tax plan though. You can call me selfish but then so is every other American who wants their taxes reduced.
PS- I care about the way our country is headed, as well. I am voting for Obama for just that reason. There was a thread already where I listed several reasons why I am voting for Obama. The unofficial poll thread. I listed 12 reasons why I support him.

[Sean88gt]

You and I both know that Barry can't make those numbers work. You're smarter than that...

Members of the Obamanation have put logical thought on the shelf. It's like a cult.

[Casper]

1st - the work tax credit offsets the increase from the Bush cuts expiring.
-curious what the heck this is about. Seriously.


2nd - don't have capital gains to speak of. The ol' saving account doesn't get a big return.
-Which means this is irrelavant, as it usually is for me (after this year).

3rd - buy health insurance outside of my job. I'd get a credit on that as well as the current deduction off of income.
-you get a DEDUCTION for that today, whether through your job or not. You won't get a credit and a deduction ever, legally, and I'm curious what credit you are speaking of.

4th - If I included the college credit it would have been even better. But I didn't because I think my kiddo is not a dependent this year so that would go to her. If I wanted to post a big number I'd have added that credit.

fair enough. So you are relying on something called a work tax credit and some kind of strange credit/deduction scheme that I don't understand and which indicates you aren't filing optimally today, and assuming that todays marginal rate is worse. Clue me in on those two and lets see what is behind your numbers.

[Gripenfelter]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

[1fastdem]

1st - the work tax credit offsets the increase from the Bush cuts expiring.
-curious what the heck this is about. Seriously.


2nd - don't have capital gains to speak of. The ol' saving account doesn't get a big return.
-Which means this is irrelavant, as it usually is for me (after this year).

3rd - buy health insurance outside of my job. I'd get a credit on that as well as the current deduction off of income.
-you get a DEDUCTION for that today, whether through your job or not. You won't get a credit and a deduction ever, legally, and I'm curious what credit you are speaking of.

4th - If I included the college credit it would have been even better. But I didn't because I think my kiddo is not a dependent this year so that would go to her. If I wanted to post a big number I'd have added that credit.

fair enough. So you are relying on something called a work tax credit and some kind of strange credit/deduction scheme that I don't understand and which indicates you aren't filing optimally today, and assuming that todays marginal rate is worse. Clue me in on those two and lets see what is behind your numbers.

Obama proposes a tax credit to those with health insurance and in my original post I stated 'current deduction' meaning the deduction to taxable income.

I may not file 'optimally'. I just use the expensive version of turbo tax. I do deduct the ins. premiums for the health ins. (see 1st post I said 'current deductions'). I got my figures for my statement above by pulling my 2007 return and adjusting for their proposed changes.

Ps- if anyone wants to do my taxes next year please do. I am tired of it all. Really. I looked under the member resources. And I know if I need someone to drink a beer while I pull a motor you are all there, but I didn't see anyone listed for tax help. I've got beer ;)

[Casper]

Okay.

FWIW, removing the tax penalty for private health care was proposed in the Bush budget, and was dropped by the same people (mostly) who are expected to pass Obama's plan. It is also part of McCain's platform. I really see this passing sooner or later regardless, but I wouldn't count on it next year, so I call that a wash. Figure on (without creative accounting) not getting any deduction for the 1st $6k (in your case) under either. That makes it simpler.

So with the work tax credit under Obama, you are basically going to get a $1k "fema check" and yet you still claim only to save $900. The math says your marginal rate is increasing if you are losing 10% of an additional tax credit.

If you figured in this along with the additional savings of about $1500 for new insurance deductions under Obama but not McCain, then the math assumes you must be using a larger reduction in your tax rate for McCain than for Obama.

So by your math, McCain will be lowering the marginal rate and Obama will be making that up to some at a low income level by passing legislation that he himself didn't pass in the senate, and by distributing freebies to lower income people at the expense of higher income people. Like you said, if it works for you, it works for you.

Let me ask then, because you are on a cusp of income percentils, do you not expect to do better in the future than you are now? If so then you are supporting penalties against your future goals. Does that really work for you?

[1fastdem]

Let me ask then, because you are on a cusp of income percentils, do you not expect to do better in the future than you are now? If so then you are supporting penalties against your future goals. Does that really work for you?

You raise an excellent point here. Voting for a tax policy that helps you now or a policy that helps you later in life when you make more money. I would love to discuss that more. I have seen several posts where the reasoning for supporting a tax is they want that break/policy when they reach that level.

Well, let's just say I am consistent... I want the policy that is best for me now and later I'll want the best policy for me then. :)

[Vertnut]

You raise an excellent point here. Voting for a tax policy that helps you now or a policy that helps you later in life when you make more money. I would love to discuss that more. I have seen several posts where the reasoning for supporting a tax is they want that break/policy when they reach that level.

Well, let's just say I am consistent... I want the policy that is best for me now and later I'll want the best policy for me then. :)
You're voting for smoke and mirrors...

[1fastdem]

You're voting for smoke and mirrors...

well, I am an optimist.

[Vertnut]

well, I am an optimist.
I guess that's a good quality to have. I'm more of a "realist".

[Casper]

You raise an excellent point here. Voting for a tax policy that helps you now or a policy that helps you later in life when you make more money. I would love to discuss that more. I have seen several posts where the reasoning for supporting a tax is they want that break/policy when they reach that level.

Well, let's just say I am consistent... I want the policy that is best for me now and later I'll want the best policy for me then. :)

hehe, and honest at least.

For me, I see my gross potential as my possible net potential. And my net has constantly improved. 20 years ago I could not have imagined being where I am now. And it has gone by quickly.

[AL P]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/06/12/GR2008061200193.gif

Not that I believe the Obama numbers for a second because of the value of the Bush tax cuts to me personally but this chart illustrates something else.

Which idiot thinks giving the bottom three rows of taxpayers $500- $1000 per year while taxing the second bracket, the small business owners of our country, an additional $115K per year is a good idea?

You can see it in this thread though. People with self serving interests.

"I just want to pay less in taxes no matter what!!"

That's right, fuck those "rich" people at the top of the chart, they owe everybody!! It's not like they create the jobs that employee the fucking irresponsible slobs at the bottom. Hell no, they sit around eating Bon Bons, reading Forbes magazine and putting out cigars on little black babies.

[Gripenfelter]

Not that I believe the Obama numbers for a second because of the value of the Bush tax cuts to me personally but this chart illustrates something else.

Which idiot thinks giving the bottom three rows of taxpayers $500- $1000 per year while taxing the second bracket, the small business owners of our country, an additional $115K per year is a good idea?

You can see it in this thread though. People with self serving interests.

"I just want to pay less in taxes no matter what!!"

That's right, fuck those "rich" people at the top of the chart, they owe everybody!! It's not like they create the jobs that employee the fucking irresponsible slobs at the bottom. Hell no, they sit around eating Bon Bons, reading Forbes magazine and putting out cigars on little black babies.


Now, I agree with you. I have one question....do you actually think the top two bracket actually pay that much? With the tax loop holes and the fucked up tax system we have, I don't believe they ever pay that.

The only way we can fix this mess is get off of this bracketed system and have everyone pay a flat tax. Whatever percentage it is, that's it.

This way the government can budget accordingly. Good economy = good tax revenues, bad economy = lower tax revenues, balance accordingly.

This way there's no slight of hand BS.

[Casper]

Now, I agree with you. I have one question....do you actually think the top two bracket actually pay that much? With the tax loop holes and the fucked up tax system we have, I don't believe they ever pay that.

Well somebody does, because they pretty much cover the bar tab at the end of the day.

[Sean88gt]

well, I am an optimist.

Potato/po-taw-toe
optimist/idiot.


I'm optimistic that the country will be fine and pull out of this dive. I'm not optimistic that some highly socialist, elitist liberal will do anything to help.

[Casper]

Potato/po-taw-toe
optimist/idiot.


I'm optimistic that the country will be fine and pull out of this dive. I'm not optimistic that some highly socialist, elitist liberal will do anything to help.

gawd help us if Biden took his place.

For me, my decision to vote at all is very heavily weighted on the VP selections. Call it stupid, I don't care, but I have to be really motivated to throw my support behind someone. I do not throw may support blindly against someone.

So far I am in the McCain camp vs the not voting at all camp, but I have not seen tits, so I reserve the right to choose STFU. Cmon sarah, this is for your country! Show your daughter's milk engorged tatas!

[AL P]

Now, I agree with you. I have one question....do you actually think the top two bracket actually pay that much? With the tax loop holes and the fucked up tax system we have, I don't believe they ever pay that.

The only way we can fix this mess is get off of this bracketed system and have everyone pay a flat tax. Whatever percentage it is, that's it.

This way the government can budget accordingly. Good economy = good tax revenues, bad economy = lower tax revenues, balance accordingly.

This way there's no slight of hand BS.

I'm just taking the chart at face value, not proving or disproving a thing. You know...like the sheeple do.

As for the flat tax I don't think it would ever happen. You have too many government jobs that depend on complexity of the existing tax system. This is like saying you are going to start a group at the Vatican called "Christians against Christ".

[Slowhand]

I think the Founding Fathers involved in the Boston Tea Party might disagree with this. Just a tad.

[AL P]

gawd help us if Biden took his place.

For me, my decision to vote at all is very heavily weighted on the VP selections. Call it stupid, I don't care, but I have to be really motivated to throw my support behind someone. I do not throw may support blindly against someone.

So far I am in the McCain camp vs the not voting at all camp, but I have not seen tits, so I reserve the right to choose STFU. Cmon sarah, this is for your country! Show your daughter's milk engorged tatas!

I thought you were going to get totally out of hand and say you wanted to blow your load all of Palin's glasses.

[Sean88gt]

gawd help us if Biden took his place.

For me, my decision to vote at all is very heavily weighted on the VP selections. Call it stupid, I don't care, but I have to be really motivated to throw my support behind someone. I do not throw may support blindly against someone.

So far I am in the McCain camp vs the not voting at all camp, but I have not seen tits, so I reserve the right to choose STFU. Cmon sarah, this is for your country! Show your daughter's milk engorged tatas!
HERE HERE!!
I've been wanting to motorboat that little slut since they showed her at the RNC.

[Casper]

I thought you were going to get totally out of hand and say you wanted to blow your load all of Palin's glasses.

Been there, done that. She's kind of skinny.

[Sean88gt]

Been there, done that. She's kind of skinny.

That's the Marauder driver talking! Those of us that drive less portly vehicles think she's just fine;)

[Casper]

HERE HERE!!
I've been wanting to motorboat that little slut since they showed her at the RNC.

I used to wonder how anyone could vote for Chelsea Clinton's tits. Then I remembered Amy Carter and I wouldn't fuck her with Chelsa's dick.