If there is no God... [Archive]

Phillystang

03-11-2008, 03:14 PM

jones4stangs

03-11-2008, 03:18 PM

You’re a sick puppy for that analogy.

flashstang04

03-11-2008, 03:18 PM

propellerhead

03-11-2008, 03:24 PM

Why does not having a god mean all life forms are equal? God or no god, humans rule the earth.

Phillystang

03-11-2008, 03:24 PM

"Because we all are part of accepted moral constructs that promote the survival of the species."

Thought I would go ahead and get that out pf the way for them. :D

Why is your species more valuable than others? Are we not all family at some point in the distant past?

Phillystang

03-11-2008, 03:25 PM

Why does not having a god mean all life forms are equal? God or no god, humans rule the earth.
Why is it wrong for Hitler to want to rule the earth and do what is necessary to achieve that?

Phillystang

03-11-2008, 03:26 PM

You’re a sick puppy for that analogy.
No one is sick in a godless world, my sickness is saneness to me. ;)

propellerhead

03-11-2008, 03:39 PM

Why is it wrong for Hitler to want to rule the earth and do what is necessary to achieve that?
Because he killed many innocents.

Phillystang

03-11-2008, 03:42 PM

Because he killed many innocents.
Like the many innocent insect life that the exterminator kills?

propellerhead

03-11-2008, 03:47 PM

Like the many innocent insect life that the exterminator kills?
No. Humans.

Phillystang

03-11-2008, 03:49 PM

No. Humans.
Why are humans more valuable than bugs?

propellerhead

03-11-2008, 03:52 PM

Because we are a more intelligent species and rule the earth. Not because of some god.

jluv

03-11-2008, 05:07 PM

Why are humans more valuable than bugs?

Wow.

Mr Majestyk

03-11-2008, 05:08 PM

"Because we all are part of accepted moral constructs that promote the survival of the species."

Thought I would go ahead and get that out pf the way for them. :D

Must be by our own intelligence LOL from which those accepted moral constructs, and the concept of "innocents", were created.

flashstang04

03-11-2008, 05:12 PM

Must be by our own intelligence LOL from which those accepted moral constructs, and the concept of "innocents", were created.

Pray tell, who decides who is and who is not innocent anymore.....hmmmmm.

What are the lines not to cross? Is it a score system you think?

For instance...how many J walking violations would equal a murder?

propellerhead

03-11-2008, 05:23 PM

Why are humans more valuable than bugs?
I don't see bugs above me on the food chain.

Pennywise

03-11-2008, 05:27 PM

Desperately grasping at straws for a comparision doesn't make your arguement any more realistic. We could do this all day. Ridiculous comparisions, each more wild and extreme. Actually, now that we've talked about it, I've decided you're right. I think I'll go on a killing spree and rid the earth of lesser beings. Do you want to PM me your address or just post it right out so I can get started?

DarkWolf

03-12-2008, 12:03 AM

... then why would Hitler be any more evil or worthy of punishment than your neighborhood pest exterminator? They are both taking care of a perceived nuisance, taking the life of innocent beings. Termite, cockroach, or ant life would be of no less value in a godless world than human life since we would all stem from the same common ancestry.

What are your thoughts? Are there any consistent atheists here?

What a ridiculous ponderance.

It's simple, really. Hitler was likely a hero to certain people... for instance, members of the KKK. Society deems what is right and what is wrong by way of majority rule. At least, our society does in theory. A dictatorship will determine right and wrong based on the whim of the dictator.

In our society, if we felt it was ok to kill someone for flipping us off in traffic, the laws for murder and killing would be considerably different than they are now.

In fact, ~150 years ago in this same country, we actually did feel very similar. It was ok to kill someone for cheating in a poker game. It was ok to kill someone for calling you a name.

But as time goes on, and as we grow as a society, we continue to shape our morals based on the will of the people (in theory, of course).

What makes us more significant than a roach? Nothing really. It's our own sense of self importance. It stems from survival of the fitest, when you boil it down to it's core.

8mpg

03-12-2008, 12:23 AM

Why are humans more valuable than bugs?
Humans are a more evolved species that has the ability to have higher thinking unlike bugs and reptiles. Because of this higher thinking and brain evolution we have dominated this planet with the basic Freudian instincts: sex and survival. Through moral adaptation our species has formed a society of wrongs and rights. Hitler was wrong with the extermination of a certain race and we know this because we have formed laws and ideas in which our society operates. Hitler violated these morals and therefore is in the wrong. I believe that we kill things as a basic instinct of survival. Freud would say that a human uses his ethos to rid life of complications of its survival.

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 06:44 AM

Phillystang

03-12-2008, 08:10 AM

What makes us more significant than a roach? Nothing really. It's our own sense of self importance. It stems from survival of the fitest, when you boil it down to it's core.

Thank you for your honesty in remaining consistent

Phillystang

03-12-2008, 08:16 AM

Castle Doctrine

I have the right to take any action to defend my property, including deadly force, whether it be with a fly swatter, a flip flop, or a bullet.

Phillystang,

Do you kill bugs? Are you saying it's only okay for you to kill bugs because you believe in god?
Well, If I believed the bug and I were related... and if I had no understanding of God and His hierarchy of creation; as an atheists I would have just as hard a time killing a bug than I would a human. It is not the bug's fault that he didn't evolve to the importance of us humans, why should we simply trample them as it is convenient to us? How far back do we have to go before it is ok to kill our ancestors?

propellerhead

03-12-2008, 08:28 AM

Well, If I believed the bug and I were related... and if I had no understanding of God and His hierarchy of creation; as an atheists I would have just as hard a time killing a bug than I would a human. It is not the bug's fault that he didn't evolve to the importance of us humans, why should we simply trample them as it is convenient to us? How far back do we have to go before it is ok to kill our ancestors?
Huh? I don't get that part. Why would an atheist have a hard time killing a bug? I put ant killer down in my yard all the time without regard to any god or creation theory. Damn, you're stretching.

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 09:25 AM

What Philly is asking is where does that "self value" come from that we are worth more than the ants in your yard, and being that an ant and a human are both living things, without a hierarchy, they would ten to be equal in terms of "life worth". Why does one have more of a right to live than the other, and where and what is that conclusion based on to someone not acknowledging a higher power. So far, DarkWolf has seemed to me to make the most sense with his alluding to a "false" sense of self importance. ( "false" being my term)

jones4stangs

03-12-2008, 10:08 AM

What makes us more significant than a roach? Nothing really. It's our own sense of self importance. It stems from survival of the fitest, when you boil it down to it's core.
I've got no problem with this.

For those with faith is gods, it seems to me, that this faith is just another form of this "sense of self importance". Has anyone ever developed a religious system that doesn't cater to this sense? Is there a system in which the gods rule and humans are always inferior and lowly? A system where they are permanently rejected by a higher being with no form of payment or favor? I doubt it, why would anyone subscribe to a system of belief that does not improve their sense of importance?

On a side note, how effective would Christianity be if there was no promise of heaven? Could you just acknowledge your creator, do what pleases it, and then die? What is the worth in serving the desires of someone else with no reward for yourself?

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 10:17 AM

I've got no problem with this.

For those with faith is gods, it seems to me, that this faith is just another form of this "sense of self importance". Has anyone ever developed a religious system that doesn't cater to this sense? Is there a system in which the gods rule and humans are always inferior and lowly? A system where they are permanently rejected by a higher being with no form of payment or favor? I doubt it, why would anyone subscribe to a system of belief that does not improve their sense of importance?

On a side note, how effective would Christianity be if there was no promise of heaven? Could you just acknowledge your creator, do what pleases it, and then die? What is the worth in serving the desires of someone else with no reward for yourself?

The reward for a Christian is not heaven, it is fulfilling our original created purpose, which is fellowship with God. Heaven is just a side note. Since it is what we were REALLY made for, it is not a reward.

jones4stangs

03-12-2008, 11:01 AM

The reward for a Christian is not heaven, it is fulfilling our original created purpose, which is fellowship with God. Heaven is just a side note. Since it is what we were REALLY made for, it is not a reward.
It's the same thing to me. Your reward is a new fellowship with God. (i.e. "Heaven")

Reward
something that is given in return for good or evil done or received or that is offered or given for some service or attainment

It's a reward by definition.

So, what now, are you going to start breaking into it's a "gift" not a "reward", dude, it's the same thing to me.

All I'm sayings is this is just another form of "sense of importance" and "self value". If you take that away the system doesn't make sense.

Casper

03-12-2008, 11:30 AM

... then why would Hitler be any more evil or worthy of punishment than your neighborhood pest exterminator? They are both taking care of a perceived nuisance, taking the life of innocent beings. Termite, cockroach, or ant life would be of no less value in a godless world than human life since we would all stem from the same common ancestry.

What are your thoughts? Are there any consistent atheists here?

I see myself very consistent. You are placing this in the context of "punishment" when I don't see any need for it. I don't see any supernatural "karma" or order to balance.

Incarceration, execution, fines, things that are regularly implemented as punishments in a secular sense are designed to A) remove a dangerous situation from the world, and B) provide a rehabilitation where possible. You might argue C) a deterrent effect as well, but that tends to have its own issues in certain circumstances.

Second of all, you presume too much about my value system. That you and I cannot rationalize the world in the same way does not necessarily put you and I at odds.

Casper

03-12-2008, 11:33 AM

Pray tell, who decides who is and who is not innocent anymore.....hmmmmm.

What are the lines not to cross? Is it a score system you think?

For instance...how many J walking violations would equal a murder?

Seven in Texas. But there are vouchers available :D

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 11:34 AM

So do christians not have intercourse with farm animals just because the bible said so, or because you know it's probably not right?

Phillystang, way to answer my question with a question.

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 11:42 AM

So do christians not have intercourse with farm animals just because the bible said so, or because you know it's probably not right?

Phillystang, way to answer my question with a question.

To a Christian lusting after an animal is due to a man being given over to sin, easy enough. I think that question is more fairly presented to an atheist. WHY do you as an atheist think that it is wrong. Beyond just being disgusting. Why is it a "crime of nature" or however you would define it.

And again, you said farm animals...does that make wild beasts ok that are not on farms?

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 11:47 AM

To a Christian lusting after an animal is due to a man being given over to sin, easy enough. I think that question is more fairly presented to an atheist. WHY do you as an atheist think that it is wrong. Beyond just being disgusting. Why is it a "crime of nature" or however you would define it.

And again, you said farm animals...does that make wild beasts ok that are not on farms?

I think it's wrong because it is. That's it. If the only thing keeping people from doing it is the bible, there are bigger issues to attend to.

Do you kill bugs? Does it make it okay to kill a bug if you believe in god, but not okay if you are atheist?

Casper

03-12-2008, 11:51 AM

To a Christian lusting after an animal is due to a man being given over to sin, easy enough. I think that question is more fairly presented to an atheist. WHY do you as an atheist think that it is wrong. Beyond just being disgusting. Why is it a "crime of nature" or however you would define it.

And again, you said farm animals...does that make wild beasts ok that are not on farms?

I think I've actually been involved with some of those wild beasts in the past :o

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 11:59 AM

I think I've actually been involved with some of those wild beasts in the past :o

HA!!!

Clock:

Of course I kill bugs. As men we are given dominion over all of the earth.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

It is my right to, and yours also.

By the way..you said "Wrong because it is". How do you know it's wrong? Who told you? If you had been born on a desert island would you have known? Where did you get the, "it just is " from? I think that is where this discussion is going.

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 12:07 PM

HA!!!

Clock:

Of course I kill bugs. As men we are given dominion over all of the earth.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

It is my right to, and yours also.

By the way..you said "Wrong because it is". How do you know it's wrong? Who told you? If you had been born on a desert island would you have known? Where did you get the, "it just is " from? I think that is where this discussion is going.

I just do. How do you know how to breathe to stay alive, did you read about it somewhere? Did someone teach you how to smell? Did you read a book to better understand how to differentiate between hot and cold?

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 12:13 PM

I just do. How do you know how to breathe to stay alive, did you read about it somewhere? Did someone teach you how to smell? Did you read a book to better understand how to differentiate between hot and cold?

The things that you describe are all physiological aspects I have no control over. How do I know this? When I sleep, I still breathe. If I drive past a dead skunk, I passively catch a whiff thanks to my olfactory sensory neurons. Do I know that water is hot and cold....yes! I have BEEN TOLD SO!!! Plus, regardless of what you call it, if it is "hot" and I put my hand under it, I will pull away..(again, automatically)

I am really trying to understand you but you are not giving me much to work with here.

again...

How do you know.....

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 12:18 PM

The things that you describe are all physiological aspects I have no control over.

I feel the same way about knowing it's wrong to have sex with animals. In other words, if someone tries to put my penis near a goats anus, I will pull it away, instinctively. I don't see why you are struggling with this concept.

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 12:20 PM

I feel the same way about knowing it's wrong to have sex with animals. In other words, if someone tries to put my penis near a goats anus, I will pull it away, instinctively. I don't see why you are struggling with this concept.

That has nothing to do with what you mentioned above. I think you are struggling, and I can prove it. If you were brought up in a culture where goat sex was accepted, then you would be at ease with the above scenario, and possibly even welcome it.

I.E. a LEARNED response
I.E. Been taught from somewhere/something

Way Cool Jr

03-12-2008, 01:28 PM

I think it's wrong because it is. That's it. If the only thing keeping people from doing it is the bible, there are bigger issues to attend to.

Simply obeying rules, tradition and dogmatic answers to moral questions do not make a person moral. Morality requires choices, and the more that a person relies on a "text book of morality" or dogmatic pre-laid rules, the less they are acting as a moral person. Obeying rules because you think you should is not the same as making moral choices, therefore at best such people are morally neutral

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 05:29 PM

That has nothing to do with what you mentioned above. I think you are struggling, and I can prove it. If you were brought up in a culture where goat sex was accepted, then you would be at ease with the above scenario, and possibly even welcome it.

I.E. a LEARNED response
I.E. Been taught from somewhere/something

Are there cultures where murder (of a human, by a human) without consequence is acceptable?

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 05:40 PM

Are there cultures where murder (of a human, by a human) without consequence is acceptable?

Yes, have you seen Apocalypto?

Have you studied the Mexican Indian civilizations at all?

Human sacrifice was not only accepted, but an offering.... This tradition was passed down.....again....learned

89gt-stanger

03-12-2008, 05:48 PM

Why are humans more valuable than bugs?

Are bugs capable of believing in God and showing it? Do you really think that God planned the life of every bug on earth?

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 05:51 PM

Yes, have you seen Apocalypto?

Have you studied the Mexican Indian civilizations at all?

Human sacrifice was not only accepted, but an offering.... This tradition was passed down.....again....learned

was? and who was the offering for?

Casper

03-12-2008, 06:00 PM

Are there cultures where murder (of a human, by a human) without consequence is acceptable?

The Azizi and Afars as a matter of fact. And not in any ritual sense, but a practical one. This idea is uniformly aplied to their own as well as outsiders. They held off the italians in the last century until Italy brought in the mustard gas. In fact their completely different culture, extremely old, was cited as a reason for extermination.

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 07:25 PM

The Azizi and Afars as a matter of fact. And not in any ritual sense, but a practical one. This idea is uniformly aplied to their own as well as outsiders. They held off the italians in the last century until Italy brought in the mustard gas. In fact their completely different culture, extremely old, was cited as a reason for extermination.

I cannot find any info on these people pertaining to killing, not that I don't believe you. Safe to assume these practices no longer exist?

Pro88LX

03-12-2008, 07:43 PM

Pro88LX

03-12-2008, 07:44 PM

if someone tries to put my penis near a goats anus, I will pull it away, instinctively.

you damn liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 07:46 PM

you damn liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

tequila nights don't count, everyone knows that

Pro88LX

03-12-2008, 07:51 PM

tequila nights don't count, everyone knows that

[naughty sheep]TiIiIiIiIiIiIiIiIiIm[/naughty sheep]

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 08:16 PM

I cannot find any info on these people pertaining to killing, not that I don't believe you. Safe to assume these practices no longer exist?

Why go to that extreme? Everyone is not a murderer..is that the only thing you consider an unethical crime?

Mr Majestyk

03-12-2008, 08:34 PM

Theft is among the most unethical of misdeeds.

Casper

03-12-2008, 09:04 PM

I cannot find any info on these people pertaining to killing, not that I don't believe you. Safe to assume these practices no longer exist?

These are a group indigenous to an area of Ethiopia. For the most part they have probably been swallowed up by the global advance of civilization in this day and age, but that is in our lifetimes. The indiscriminate killing of strangers probably served a sociological survival function in an area with little resources. Their "ruthlessness" was exaggerated, they simply had no compunction against killing an interloper, and the list of non-interlopers was pretty much limited to the family unit. And they had no superstition against using a british-supplied Enfield rifle or a stick or rock.

Haille Salasie (PBUHLOL) addressed the world community passionately for assistance against the slaughter. Dis de basis of de rasta messiah, mon! Eventually Italy agreed to stop using WMDs once they were no longer needed, and to promise not to use them again (parallels anyone?). The US pretty much walked through Italy a few years later battling mostly foreign troops because to do differnetly invited those foreign troops to attack the US directly, or semi-directly on the high seas(I said parallels now...).

And of course there is the example of differing definitions of murder. Capitol punishment is viewed by some as true justice and by others as a corruption of morals. Some carry the debate to the fetus. Some carry the debate to sentience (which really screwed up canned tuna by taking the dolphin meat out). I was trying to avid going there for an example.

ClockwrkOrangeS4

03-12-2008, 10:32 PM

Why go to that extreme? Everyone is not a murderer..is that the only thing you consider an unethical crime?

I didn't ask the question, a christian did

flashstang04

03-12-2008, 11:24 PM

hmmm ok

DarkWolf

03-14-2008, 12:45 AM

Thank you for your honesty in remaining consistent

As you know, or perhaps it's escaped your notice, I'm the perpetual devil's advocate :p

FSON

03-14-2008, 08:59 AM

If there is no dog,
.
"What's At Stake?"
.
"How Should We Then Live?"
.

Zarathustra

03-15-2008, 07:26 PM

Yakk, Godwin's law form the start.

FSON

03-17-2008, 10:41 AM

Yakk, Godwin's law form the start.
After Nietzsche comes Heiddeger, then Derrida...

Casper

03-17-2008, 11:10 AM

After Nietzsche comes Heiddeger, then Derrida...

Fuck Heiddeger. He's not even in the same class.

FSON

03-17-2008, 11:37 AM

Fuck Heiddeger. He's not even in the same class.
Derrida overcame Heiddeger who overcame "The Hammer" who overcame Kant and others with the help of Schopenhauer who overcame...

Western Society is still wrapped up in the clutches of "the Hammer". The clenched fist is slowly opening. Soon we will see an open palm.
It would have been interesting to see the result of a meeting with Nietzche and Kirkegaard, both sons of clergy, I believe. They may have depressed each other to the point of overwhelming laughter (Nietzche's laughter coming from the sanitarium while in the woods)... which might have changed Western civilization as we know it today.
Heiddeger saw the eagle and the snake.

Nestromo

03-27-2008, 01:05 AM

... then why would Hitler be any more evil or worthy of punishment than your neighborhood pest exterminator? They are both taking care of a perceived nuisance, taking the life of innocent beings. Termite, cockroach, or ant life would be of no less value in a godless world than human life since we would all stem from the same common ancestry.

What are your thoughts? Are there any consistent atheists here?

Because right and wrong don't come from a book, they come from our hearts and minds. You asked the question so obviously you feel that even one who is not bound by faith can tell the difference.

Now I guess the next logical question would be why did so many of your Christian brothers and sisters 200 years ago feel that theft was a sin but hanging a slave was not? They had the good book and did everything that they could to hold true to its teachings, much the same way there are surely planks in your eye that you would do well to remove before taking specks from the eyes of others.

Phillystang

03-27-2008, 06:25 AM

Because right and wrong don't come from a book, they come from our hearts and minds. You asked the question so obviously you feel that even one who is not bound by faith can tell the difference.
Actually I would somewhat agree with you... and it even " come(s) from a book"

Romans 2
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Now I guess the next logical question would be why did so many of your Christian brothers and sisters 200 years ago feel that theft was a sin but hanging a slave was not? They had the good book and did everything that they could to hold true to its teachings, much the same way there are surely planks in your eye that you would do well to remove before taking specks from the eyes of others.
Hanging a slave? You are asking me why Christians in the past interpreted the Bible differently than me and that somehow means anything relevant to the discussion?

What did this "slave" do? Did he murder 100 people?

People have had interpretational disagreements ever since the fist church councils on the nature of Jesus. Why are there Christian cults who do not believe orthodox Christian beliefs? This is no surprise.

Nestromo

03-27-2008, 07:21 AM

I meant it as an example of right and wrong being different from time to time and place to place. We (all of us) do things now that I am sure will be looked down upon by the humans of the future (christian or not) just much as people in the past did things that we all beingsdespise now. We all have planks in our eyes and as humans will never truly know the entirety of what is right and what is wrong (with or without the word to light our path). So while the word of god might help you define what you feel is right, you might feel completely different about those things in another setting even if you are drawing from the same book of answers.

I hope that clarified the rather ghastly slave analogy. And yes it had to do with biblical interpretation, because how you intrepret the bible defines your right and wrong as a Christian, does it not? As for why was the hypothetical slave hung, it doesn't matter. He was a thing, a non-person. He could have been hung for looking at someone wrong, stealing a loaf of bread, or just for shits and giggles.