Exxon setting record PROFIT margin's...again...

[Nate]

Wow isn't that spectacular for them.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/23/news/companies/exxon_profits/index.htm?postversion=2008012310

[ayzo]

LOL I can't stop laughing at your sig

[White trash wagon]

It's called free enterprise. As long as Americans continue to drive 7000 lbs vehicles as daily drivers, I can't feel sorry for anyone paying $3.00-$4.00 per gallon of gas. Exxon-Mobil is laughing all the way to the bank, while you pump another 36 gallons of fuel in your Hummer.

Scott

[black01gt]

It's called free enterprise. As long as Americans continue to drive 7000 lbs vehicles as daily drivers, I can't feel sorry for anyone paying $3.00-$4.00 per gallon of gas. Exxon-Mobil is laughing all the way to the bank, while you pump another 36 gallons of fuel in your Hummer.

Scott
What if we don't drive a Hummer and have no choice but to buy 3 to 4 tanks a week to work? It's effected the economy....alot. It is a shame to surrender that to Exxon/Mobil/Chevron/Sheik Haji, etc...

The asshole in the blinged out Hummer is probably in the "all bidness". ;)

Sheik Alibaba's humble abode:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/FeatMike/Arabsareassholes.jpg

[Pro88LX]

who cares?

[wesman]

It's called free enterprise. As long as Americans continue to drive 7000 lbs vehicles as daily drivers, I can't feel sorry for anyone paying $3.00-$4.00 per gallon of gas. Exxon-Mobil is laughing all the way to the bank, while you pump another 36 gallons of fuel in your Hummer.

Scott


Well, those companies shouldn't get the tax breaks they have gotten/ are getting. The price of gas is affecting every aspect of our economy, like it or not.

--wes

[wesman]

What if we don't drive a Hummer and have no choice but to buy 3 to 4 tanks a week to work? It's effected the economy....alot. It is a shame to surrender that to Exxon/Mobil/Chevron/Sheik Haji, etc...

The asshole in the blinged out Hummer is probably in the "all bidness". ;)

Sheik Alibaba's humble abode:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/FeatMike/Arabsareassholes.jpg


I feel special now, the wife has the same daily driver as the Sheik seems to have ....745LI

Although my driveway is shaped a little differently....lol

--wes

[black01gt]

who cares?
Pretty much everyone that doesn't profit from $3+ per gallon of gasoline or deisel.

[grape]

just buy stock it's good for the economy

[TexasDevilDog]

What if we don't drive a Hummer and have no choice but to buy 3 to 4 tanks a week to work? It's effected the economy....alot. It is a shame to surrender that to Exxon/Mobil/Chevron/Sheik Haji, etc...



You make the choice to buy 3-4 tanks a week. It is in chapter one of my macroeconomic book. You buy the gasoline because it give you utility and you have decided that the marginal benefit is greater than the marginal cost. :cool:

[Pro88LX]

Pretty much everyone that doesn't profit from $3+ per gallon of gasoline or deisel.

i dont care much. its worth it to me to not have to walk or ride a bus/horse. the companies have a right to make money. if you think the price is too much, then dont buy it. seems pretty simple to me....

[Gaber]

Life's a bitch, and this is just part of it.

[mopar63]

Nice, Since they will not put any effort in to building new refineries. And they won't put any effort into alternative fuels, that would be cutting their own throats.

[Pro88LX]

Nice, Since they will not put any effort in to building new refineries. And they won't put any effort into alternative fuels, that would be cutting their own throats.

why should they? theyre making money doing what theyre doing. if people get sick enough of it they'll innovate something new and free of oil. people got sick of riding horses, and thats how cars came along, so someone will figure it out.

[Trip McNeely]

Im happy.

[black01gt]

You make the choice to buy 3-4 tanks a week. It is in chapter one of my macroeconomic book. You buy the gasoline because it give you utility and you have decided that the marginal benefit is greater than the marginal cost. :cool:
My job as a manufacturer's rep requires me traveling to Amarillo, Lubbock, Shreveport, Monroe, Texarkana, etc...

No, I don't get gas reimbursement and if I did it would still be an unnecssary financial burden on them. "marginal benefit"...like a job? You're right. My choice.

[black01gt]

Life's a bitch, and this is just part of it.
He sez as the water is just coming up over his nose...

BIG OIL loves your attitude. :cool:

[jyro]

Nice, Since they will not put any effort in to building new refineries.

New refinery to be built in South Dakota to process Canadian crude

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/12/17/new-refinery-to-be-built-in-south-dakota-to-process-canadian-cru/

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2005/09/14/new-refineries-not-a-chance.aspx
New Refineries? Not a Chance
To get an idea of what it takes to build a new refinery, one can look at Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma. This company has been trying to build a new refinery for six years, and not a single shovel of dirt has moved. The company is still fighting its way through city, county, state, and federal permit procedures. Between various levels of government, environmental organizations, and community groups, there are seemingly endless obstacles before construction can begin. Even if the stars align, Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma will not be running until the end of the decade...

If the cleanest refinery in North America cannot be built in a remote location, with 90% public support within the state, then what are the prospects in the rest of the country?

[Fox466]

My job as a manufacturer's rep requires me traveling to Amarillo, Lubbock, Shreveport, Monroe, Texarkana, etc...

No, I don't get gas reimbursement and if I did it would still be an unnecssary financial burden on them. "marginal benefit"...like a job? You're right. My choice.

And my job as an insurance inspector requires my monitoring reps from Lubbock to Amarillo to Texarkana to Beaumont to Waco and back into Dallas. So it's ALL of our choices to buy that gas in order to feed our families.

In all 36 states that our 3 million dollar a month company services... :rolleyes:


And it sounds like we have the same territory. :cool:

[Fox466]

If the cleanest refinery in North America cannot be built in a remote location, with 90% public support within the state, then what are the prospects in the rest of the country?

The prospects would improve dramatically if someone started shooting the rich/fat sons a bitches that are blocking the construction in the fucking heads...

[Gaber]

BIG OIL loves your attitude. :cool:

Well, not much anyone can do about it. Buy a tinker toy car that gets 30mpg? Still gotta buy that gas. Only the Fed. Gov. is big enough to handle this problem. But why would they.

[black01gt]

Well, not much anyone can do about it. Buy a tinker toy car that gets 30mpg? Still gotta buy that gas. Only the Fed. Gov. is big enough to handle this problem. But why would they.
Already drive a VW Passat = 35mpg. Got a good point about the gov. Yep, why would slave owners give in to any demands? :D

[black01gt]

The prospects would improve dramatically if someone started shooting the rich/fat sons a bitches that are blocking the construction in the fucking heads...
ooooeeeeeee...somebody give him a cigar. He has seen the future. :cool:

Please don't let em fuck up beautiful Beaumont with a refinary.

[big_tiger]

Well, not much anyone can do about it. Buy a tinker toy car that gets 30mpg? Still gotta buy that gas. Only the Fed. Gov. is big enough to handle this problem. But why would they.

The only thing are going to do, is put a higher tax on gas. ;)

[black01gt]

The only thing are going to do, is put a higher tax on gas. ;)
They're going to do as much as you will tolerate and so far there is no unhappy ending in sight for them.

[01WhiteCobra]

a.t.t. reported 3.1 billion in profits this quarter. Are they fucking us on phone, internet and video services?

I'm more pissed about my wireless bill than I am my gas bill.

[Nate]

a.t.t. reported 3.1 billion in profits this quarter. Are they fucking us on phone, internet and video services?

I'm more pissed about my wireless bill than I am my gas bill.
Yes they are fucking us on that as well... :D

[01WhiteCobra]

Yes they are fucking us on that as well... :D

40% of my immediate family works for the t. So, it's ok. haha.

Just can't believe I can't get some family discount or sumthin'.

[fitzwell]

The prospects would improve dramatically if someone started shooting the skinny, granola eating "don't build that, you'll hurt the snaildarter" or whatfuckever nutbags that are blocking the construction in the fucking heads...


fixed.

you gotta break a few eggs to make the omelet

[ALLAN]

What if we don't drive a Hummer and have no choice but to buy 3 to 4 tanks a week to work? It's effected the economy....alot. It is a shame to surrender that to Exxon/Mobil/Chevron/Sheik Haji, etc...

The asshole in the blinged out Hummer is probably in the "all bidness". ;)

Sheik Alibaba's humble abode:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/FeatMike/Arabsareassholes.jpg
Don't we get most of our oil from Mexico, Canada, and Venezuela? :confused:

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/cf-18-1.jpg

[Strychnine]

The prospects would improve dramatically if someone started shooting the rich/fat sons a bitches that are blocking the construction in the fucking heads...


Just FYI, in most cases, because of environmental regs, it's smarter/cheaper to expand existing facilities than to build from the ground up.

To build from the ground up takes much longer. Getting permits and things to build a new facility can take years... and that has to happen before construction can even start, where as the expansion projects can be completed relatively quickly and can greatly expand capacity.



9/22/07
Royal Dutch Shell PLC plans to nearly double the size of an oil refinery it operates with a Saudi partner in Port Arthur on the Texas Gulf Coast, making it the biggest in the nation and one of the largest in the world. Shell plans to boost the Port Arthur refinery's capacity to 600,000 barrels of crude oil per day by 2010 from the current 275,000 barrels per day. The 325,000 b/d expansion at Port Arthur is equivalent to building the first new refinery in the U.S. in more than 30 years.

[01WhiteCobra]

What if we don't drive a Hummer and have no choice but to buy 3 to 4 tanks a week to work? It's effected the economy....alot. It is a shame to surrender that to Exxon/Mobil/Chevron/Sheik Haji, etc...

The asshole in the blinged out Hummer is probably in the "all bidness". ;)

Sheik Alibaba's humble abode:



Dude... we, America, created that!

Saudi Arabia was a shithole desert with a bunch of camels and people that wanted to live in huts.

Back in the 30s some treasure hunter found some oil, Standard Oil signed an agreement with the Saudi government allowing them to develop their oil fields creating Aramco. They could find shit so they sold 50% of their concession to Texaco (then Texas Oil Company).

Back in the 50s, the Saudis got smart and told Aramco either give us 50% of your profit or get the fuck out.

Back in the 60s the Saudis purchased 25% of Aramco (smart long term investment) and increased it to over 50% in the 70s (even smarter long term investment.)

In the smartest move... they aquired 100% of it in the 80s.

The Saudis may have started out the 1900s as backward ass sand dwellers but, just like Jed Clampett, black gold was found on their land.

[Nate]

40% of my immediate family works for the t. So, it's ok. haha.

Just can't believe I can't get some family discount or sumthin'.
My future mother in law works for them too...hell she doesn't get much of a discount.

[01WhiteCobra]

My future mother in law works for them too...hell she doesn't get much of a discount.

It was alot better back in the 90s. I was living with my brother when he worked in Dallas for them. Free local phone and up to $100 in free long distance (or something like that, we never got a bill with a due amount) I'm not sure on his "wireless" deal at the moment but its pretty good (he is fairly high up)

But, he had to make his daughter stand in line at the a.t.t. wireless store so she could get her iPhone that he had to pay full price for. haha.

[Nate]

It was alot better back in the 90s. I was living with my brother when he worked in Dallas for them. Free local phone and up to $100 in free long distance (or something like that, we never got a bill with a due amount) I'm not sure on his "wireless" deal at the moment but its pretty good (he is fairly high up)

But, he had to make his daughter stand in line at the a.t.t. wireless store so she could get her iPhone that he had to pay full price for. haha.
Sucks to be them...I'm about to jump to ATT though for service. Just have a better deal for me for a smart phone and service over Verizon.

[TexasDevilDog]

My job as a manufacturer's rep requires me traveling to Amarillo, Lubbock, Shreveport, Monroe, Texarkana, etc...

No, I don't get gas reimbursement and if I did it would still be an unnecssary financial burden on them. "marginal benefit"...like a job? You're right. My choice.

Why the hell don't you call the police? you are obviously being forced to work there.

[TexasDevilDog]

Well, not much anyone can do about it. Buy a tinker toy car that gets 30mpg? Still gotta buy that gas. Only the Fed. Gov. is big enough to handle this problem. But why would they.

Handle this problem, how?

[Craizie]

I didnt read anywhere in that article that said they had record setting profit margins, profit margins and PROFIT are 2 way different things.

[01WhiteCobra]

I didnt read anywhere in that article that said they had record setting profit margins, profit margins and PROFIT are 2 way different things.

No worries. My 82.50 calls are up almost 100% since Monday. I'll be selling before they announce.

My profit margin is a record for the week. :D

[TexasDevilDog]

No worries. My 82.50 calls are up almost 100% since Monday. I'll be selling before they announce.

My profit margin is a record for the week. :D

You are obscene too! :D

Good going! :cool:

[01WhiteCobra]

You are obscene too! :D

Good going! :cool:

Crazy enough... I know you won't believe it... I had my largest ever month mid-December to mid-January betting the dollar long against the pound and Euro.

Crazy times we live in. It appears the Euro has regained footing so I'm looking for a place to go long the Euro again.

[black01gt]

Dude... we, America, created that!

Saudi Arabia was a shithole desert with a bunch of camels and people that wanted to live in huts.

Back in the 30s some treasure hunter found some oil, Standard Oil signed an agreement with the Saudi government allowing them to develop their oil fields creating Aramco. They could find shit so they sold 50% of their concession to Texaco (then Texas Oil Company).

Back in the 50s, the Saudis got smart and told Aramco either give us 50% of your profit or get the fuck out.

Back in the 60s the Saudis purchased 25% of Aramco (smart long term investment) and increased it to over 50% in the 70s (even smarter long term investment.)

In the smartest move... they aquired 100% of it in the 80s.

The Saudis may have started out the 1900s as backward ass sand dwellers but, just like Jed Clampett, black gold was found on their land.
Correct. And then there is also the story of the Permian Basin. Until the Saudi's figured it out, Midland was the wealthist, per capita, city in the world.

[black01gt]

Why the hell don't you call the police? you are obviously being forced to work there.
yuk yuk...witty. :rolleyes:

[black01gt]

Originally Posted by fitzwell
The prospects would improve dramatically if someone started shooting the skinny, granola eating "don't build that, you'll hurt the snaildarter" or whatfuckever nutbags that are blocking the construction in the fucking heads...

you gotta break a few eggs to make the omelet

I didn't think it would take long for the 'tree huggers" to get blamed for the gas prices. They carry so much clout over the current regime. :D

[mikeb]

New refinery to be built in South Dakota to process Canadian crude

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/12/17/new-refinery-to-be-built-in-south-dakota-to-process-canadian-cru/

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2005/09/14/new-refineries-not-a-chance.aspx
New Refineries? Not a Chance
To get an idea of what it takes to build a new refinery, one can look at Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma. This company has been trying to build a new refinery for six years, and not a single shovel of dirt has moved. The company is still fighting its way through city, county, state, and federal permit procedures. Between various levels of government, environmental organizations, and community groups, there are seemingly endless obstacles before construction can begin. Even if the stars align, Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma will not be running until the end of the decade...

If the cleanest refinery in North America cannot be built in a remote location, with 90% public support within the state, then what are the prospects in the rest of the country?

This is one of the reasons I am excited about ethanol. Ethanol plants *can* get built (there is a new one going up in denton) and are within the price range of normal investors. Big oil has a monopoly and a chokehold on the oil market because of the no new refinery deal. If enough ethanol plants get online then maybe the "ankle biting" ethanol industry will have some effect on big oil's deathgrip on the rest of us.

[Mustangman_2000]

An oil company posting record profits while consumers suffer is all normal. Part of the blame is on the industry itself and other on the consumer. Americans are consumption hogs. Maybe this will stimulate interests for alternative energy sources.


This is one of the reasons I am excited about ethanol. Ethanol plants *can* get built (there is a new one going up in denton) and are within the price range of normal investors. Big oil has a monopoly and a chokehold on the oil market because of the no new refinery deal. If enough ethanol plants get online then maybe the "ankle biting" ethanol industry will have some effect on big oil's deathgrip on the rest of us.

I too like the idea of American made Ethanol. It would reduce our dependence on foreign oil. However, I see it as a double edged sword. It's going to take a lot of energy (probably coal) to convert corn or switchgrass to Ethanol. And the amount of Ethanol that would be needed to supply a large populace will require a lot of land and agriculture. That in turn is going to drive up the cost of food. And then you will have environmental activist bitching and moaning about coal plants that will be needed for the conversion process.

If we wean ourselves of the Arabs by producing fuel domestically, then we will have another set of issues to contend with.

I think it would be great to tell the Arabs to hug balls and be an autonomous society. However, all the necessary evils required to do so would have consumers ultimately paying more money in total for rising energy prices and food costs. At least that's the way I see it. I hope I am wrong.

[01WhiteCobra]

An oil company posting record profits while consumers suffer is all normal. Part of the blame is on the industry itself and other on the consumer. Americans are consumption hogs.

And you blame the oil companies how? Your statement is akin to blaming Microsoft because people want internet access.

Jeesh, provide a product everyone wants to consume and then blame the company for providing the product.

[Mustangman_2000]

And you blame the oil companies how? Your statement is akin to blaming Microsoft because people want internet access.

Jeesh, provide a product everyone wants to consume and then blame the company for providing the product.

Funny.

Oil companies manipulate the market and fleece consumers.

They are reporting record profits and it's not all due to the resources becoming more difficult to find chestnut.

This is not a largely competitive market. There is a lack of Government oversight in energy trade that is contributing factor to the problem. You have a lot of big oil companies that have merged together. i.e. Exxon-Mobil, Chevron-Texaco, etc..Now you have a small few companies controlling our gasoline supply, which reduces competition. The less competition there is, the worse it is for the consumers pocketbook.

One of the main reasons they are making huge profits, is because they are buying back their stock and paying the dividends in lieu of investing in sustainable resources and development projects. They have NO desire to alleviate our dependency on oil. They have little or no regard for the environment.

It's also due to the Government taxing the bejesus out of the whole process.

You are deluded if you think that the upper echelons in these mega-corporations are ethical and unpretentious individuals. And that greed is never a motivating factor.

[01WhiteCobra]

Funny.

Oil companies manipulate the market and fleece consumers.

They are reporting record profits and it's not all due to the resources becoming more difficult to find chestnut.

This is not a largely competitive market. There is a lack of Government oversight in energy trade that is contributing factor to the problem. You have a lot of big oil companies that have merged together. i.e. Exxon-Mobil, Chevron-Texaco, etc..Now you have a small few companies controlling our gasoline supply, which reduces competition. The less competition there is, the worse it is for the consumers pocketbook.

One of the main reasons they are making huge profits, is because they are buying back their stock and paying the dividends in lieu of investing in sustainable resources and development projects. They have NO desire to alleviate our dependency on oil.

You are deluded if you think that the upper echelons in these mega-corporations are ethical and unpretentious individuals. And that greed is never a motivating factor.

It's also due to the Government taxing the bejesus out of the whole process.

Provide me one fucking piece of evidence towards your manipulation of oil prices by major oil companies.

Take that shit you are smoking and have a trio with Bill and Al.

Take a look around any ANY FUCKING INDUSTRY and you will see consolidation. Seriously, what the hell do you do for a living. You have to be one of the most ignorant posters on this site.

What is the oil company's incentive to invest their investors money into alternative fuels? To save your stupid ass? Sorry, capitalism doesn't work like that. Socialism does. Not capitalism. Or did you miss that part in elementary school economics.

They'll make gas, you will buy it... at most any price.

[Mustangman_2000]

Provide me one fucking piece of evidence towards your manipulation of oil prices by major oil companies.

Take that shit you are smoking and have a trio with Bill and Al.

Take a look around any ANY FUCKING INDUSTRY and you will see consolidation. Seriously, what the hell do you do for a living. You have to be one of the most ignorant posters on this site.

What is the oil company's incentive to invest their investors money into alternative fuels? To save your stupid ass? Sorry, capitalism doesn't work like that. Socialism does. Not capitalism. Or did you miss that part in elementary school economics.

They'll make gas, you will buy it... at most any price.

LOL @ you getting bent out of shape. I truly feel sorry for people who are so sensitive and weak to allow themselves to get upset about what other people post on the internet. That must suck for you.

There are a plethora of legitimate studies that indicate that oil prices are politically motivated/manipulated. One of those being a study conducted by the IMF.

You give me the impression that you think energy companies and the people who run them are 100% on the level. That they have never been guilty of market manipulation, price gouging, capitalizing on a catastrophic event, or any type of fraudulent or illicit behavior. I guess you didn't get the memo about the now defunct Enron, a scandal that hit the front page of every newspaper and ruined a lot of peoples life's.

You are very odd.

[TexasDevilDog]

yuk yuk...witty. :rolleyes:

That's what I thought.

[Vertnut]

These threads tickle me. We've been down this road a hundred times on this site, with all of the same mis-information...it gives me the "tired-head".

[black01gt]

That's what I thought.
What's what you thought? Are you trying to play tough guy or something? Quit your fuckin job if you think there are so many choices, if you have one. I have to work.

You sound like a trust fund kid trying to rationalize like everone is. "High gas prices? No problem for me. Don't buy it if you don't like it. Stop working :p ." Blow it out your ass.

[TexasDevilDog]

What's what you thought? Are you trying to play tough guy or something? Quit your fuckin job if you think there are so many choices, if you have one. I have to work.

You sound like a trust fund kid trying to rationalize like everone is. "High gas prices? No problem for me. Don't buy it if you don't like it. Stop working :p ." Blow it out your ass.

That you would have no answer to my retort.

I was laid off in April 2006 from Nokia. My girl friend hasn't worked since 1996. I was unemployed for six months, mostly due to me not having to accept a job less than $22/hr. It was ok. Unemployment paid about 90% of the bills due to me not spending every penny I could borrow. Being debt free is freedom to do what ever I want. I feel sorry for the slaves that work for their masters called Visa, Mastercard, Citibank, BestBuy, etc.

My current job is ideal. 3 miles from my house, right across the street from the college. My employer pays me really good, allows me to set my own schedule, even allows me to work a split shift so that I can go to college.

[White trash wagon]

My girl friend hasn't worked since 1996.

Damn, how does one stay out of work for 12 years?

Scott

[01WhiteCobra]

LOL @ you getting bent out of shape. I truly feel sorry for people who are so sensitive and weak to allow themselves to get upset about what other people post on the internet. That must suck for you.

There are a plethora of legitimate studies that indicate that oil prices are politically motivated/manipulated. One of those being a study conducted by the IMF.

You give me the impression that you think energy companies and the people who run them are 100% on the level. That they have never been guilty of market manipulation, price gouging, capitalizing on a catastrophic event, or any type of fraudulent or illicit behavior. I guess you didn't get the memo about the now defunct Enron, a scandal that hit the front page of every newspaper and ruined a lot of peoples life's.

You are very odd.

Just what I thought... no fucking supportive substance.

The world will be alot better when people like you shut the fuck up and stop opinions without basis or fact.

Should we go over every corporate scandal that didn't include oil? Oil is one of those most liquid (no pun) commodities traded in the world. It would be near impossible to manipulate the price because of the volume that gets traded everyday.

Here is a list of corporate scandals in America. As you will see from the list it include many different types of industries.

http://www.forbes.com/2002/07/25/accountingtracker.html

Back on topic, the price of oil is where the price of oil should be within about 10% because of trader speculation (traders not associated with oil companies and have no ability to actually sell or receive oil because they have no facilities)

Oil is one of those most liquid trading commodities in the world. It would be impossible, without very much cooperation between not only the American oil companies but global oil companies to artificially inflate prices.

You mentioned Enron but the manipulation of electricity prices in California was actually a very small part of the case against them. The case had to do mostly with setting up shill partnerships to funnel losses through which artificially improved the corporate balance sheet (remove losses, but keep the revenues) and also inflated the value of those said partnerships in order to improve corporate assets.

But, I doubt you really understand that because it doesn't meet with your skewed view of the situation.

Odd? Yea, I'm definetly different from you. I actually research and get the the root of the problem. You on the other hand get your information from CNN Headline news and the talking heads on TV that read from teleprompters.

[TexasDevilDog]

Damn, how does one stay out of work for 12 years?

Scott

She had a heart attack in 1996 then a stroke in 1999. Her left hand and leg is paralyzed.

[White trash wagon]

She had a heart attack in 1996 then a stroke in 1999. Her left hand and leg is paralyzed.

I'm sorry to hear that, after those 2 "adventures", hopefully God smiles on her forever after.


Scott

[mikeb]

However, I see it as a double edged sword. It's going to take a lot of energy (probably coal) to convert corn or switchgrass to Ethanol. And the amount of Ethanol that would be needed to supply a large populace will require a lot of land and agriculture. That in turn is going to drive up the cost of food. And then you will have environmental activist bitching and moaning about coal plants that will be needed for the conversion process.


Perhaps not. Hell, we can quit paying farmers to not grow anything and get them to grow switchgrass instead.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=grass-makes-better-ethanol-than-corn

[black01gt]

My current job is ideal. 3 miles from my house, right across the street from the college. My employer pays me really good, allows me to set my own schedule, even allows me to work a split shift so that I can go to college.
I really am happy for your conditions, but you don't need to be smug about someone else's work conditions. High priced gas is not something I buy as a luxury item. The simple truth is after spending $150 a week so I can fucking work (no way around it), I just don't want to go buy new TV's and shit that are luxury items to support a decent economy. Multiply that along with all the other price gouging we tolerate by a few million and see what eventually happens.

I'm hardly in dept. I use AmEx for work (hotels and food with some customer entertainment) and pay it each month with no interest. Other than that I use a Chevron and Valero card which accounts for the bulk of my dept which is an unreimbursed work expense. Yep, I'd like to break a few crude brokers arms.

$1.80 gas, which is obtainable would bring a lot of peace of mind to a lot of Americans but that's rapidly becoming a lost concern ain't it?

[01WhiteCobra]

$1.80 gas, which is obtainable would bring a lot of peace of mind to a lot of Americans but that's rapidly becoming a lost concern ain't it?

You know this how?

[black01gt]

You know this how?
Oops. Forgot about Mr Specifics. :D

There is a lot of shut in oil in this country. That I DO KNOW. Crack that shit open and build some goddamned refining capacity. Don't claim the "tree huggers" won't let it happen cause they haven't had shit for say so in years. Cheney versus the tree huggers. What a laugh?

[Vertnut]

Oops. Forgot about Mr Specifics. :D

There is a lot of shut in oil in this country. That I DO KNOW. Crack that shit open and build some goddamned refining capacity. Don't claim the "tree huggers" won't let it happen cause they haven't had shit for say so in years. Cheney versus the tree huggers. What a laugh?
Oil ain't the problem with the gas prices. Refineries are running at 110%, in most cases. It takes about 7 years to build a refinery from the word "go".

[black01gt]

Oil ain't the problem with the gas prices. Refineries are running at 110%, in most cases. It takes about 7 years to build a refinery from the word "go".
The last refinary was built in 1976. At $3+ a gallon I'll bet even the tree huggers would be willing to kill a few spotted owls. There is also Beaumont, Texas City, Corpus, Bakersfield, etc etc...

We're slaves to big oil. Face it. Change it.

[01WhiteCobra]

Oops. Forgot about Mr Specifics. :D

There is a lot of shut in oil in this country. That I DO KNOW. Crack that shit open and build some goddamned refining capacity. Don't claim the "tree huggers" won't let it happen cause they haven't had shit for say so in years. Cheney versus the tree huggers. What a laugh?

Nope, just want you to back up your drivel.

The easy oil in the US has been tapped. What left is the hard oil. Once oil approaches 150 a barrel it will become feasible to extract it.

[Vertnut]

The last refinary was built in 1976. At $3+ a gallon I'll bet even the tree huggers would be willing to kill a few spotted owls. There is also Beaumont, Texas City, Corpus, Bakersfield, etc etc...

We're slaves to big oil. Face it. Change it.
Most consumers have faced it...those in power won't change it. Speculator's will be sure oil stays in the $80-$85 range for a good long while. A bomb goes off in the Sudan...a camel farts towards Mecca...it's all the same, because they threaten the worlds' oil supply!

[01WhiteCobra]

The last refinary was built in 1976. At $3+ a gallon I'll bet even the tree huggers would be willing to kill a few spotted owls. There is also Beaumont, Texas City, Corpus, Bakersfield, etc etc...

We're slaves to big oil. Face it. Change it.

Refineries are capital intensive. US capacity is at about 17 million barrels a day. To install another 5% capacity would cost in the neighborhood of 10-15 billion dollars.

So... first you'd have to come up with the money or talk someone into letting you borrow it and you would have to use that 5% capacity on an on-going basis or it becomes spare capacity which means it is under-utilized. If it sits idle the ROI is 0%. Would you like 0% return on investment on 10 billion dollars?

The cheaper way is to buy your competitor and their capacity. Overall capacity doesn't increase but your share of the capacity increases thus your profits increase. This is what you've seen in the industry over the past 20 years.

Saudi is building a huge refinery at the moment and will ship finished product worldwide. This is going to cut into the margins of refining greatly (they will be able to produce final product much cheaper since their delivery of oil will be much cheaper.)

Tight supply is built into the system and maximum capacity utilization produces the best return on investment.

Oil companies are like any other company. They exist to turn a profit. The highest profit possible. Spending 10 billion to add 5% capacity in the states is silly... I don't think, even if permits were readily available, you'd see too many companies jumping on the opportunities.

Even Valero who can run the most efficient refinery probably isn't too keen on spending 10s of billions in creating a new refinery. They'll just continue to buy up the refineries.

Also, remember, it wasn't too long ago when gas was cheap as hell. There certainly wasn't any incentive and the payback too long to add capacity.

[01WhiteCobra]

Most consumers have faced it...those in power won't change it. Speculator's will be sure oil stays in the $80-$85 range for a good long while. A bomb goes off in the Sudan...a camel farts towards Mecca...it's all the same, because they threaten the worlds' oil supply!

If the predicted recession of 2008 doesn't hit... you can bet on 150/bbl oil in 2008.

[black01gt]

The easy oil in the US has been tapped. What left is the hard oil. Once oil approaches 150 a barrel it will become feasible to extract it.
You know this how?

Working cost hasn't increased nearly at the rate of the profit margin of exploration, so all I hear is..."just when you thought their greed had peaked...."

The Barnett-Shale natural gas field was discovered in the early 80's. It's the largest natural gas field in the world as of yet, but it was shut in until "the price was right". GREED. It's a sweet deal for the stockholders...for now.

[01WhiteCobra]

You know this how?

Working cost hasn't increased nearly at the rate of the profit margin of exploration, so all I hear is..."just when you thought their greed had peaked...."

The Barnett-Shale natural gas field was discovered in the early 80's. It's the largest natural gas field in the world as of yet, but it was shut in until "the price was right". GREED. It's a sweet deal for the stockholders...for now.

I'm sorry, black01gt, America is a society founded on capitalism. Energy companies are not in the business of supply energy at a loss.

I'm really shocked as a supporter of Ron Paul you have a problem with free market enterprise.

I'm curious, how old are you? What do you do for a living?

Back to your question about how I know this...

US Crude Oil production peaked in 1973. At the time the United States was the largest oil producing country in the world. Even today were behind the Saudis and Russia.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb1105.html

We peaked around 10 million barrels a day and are now doing around 5 million barrels a day. With oil around 90 bucks a barrel don't you think we'd be producing more... if we could?

I worked for a supplier of oil field equipment when Prudhoe Bay was discovered and developed. Despite despite wells drilled and pipe layed being on par with the 60s... oil production continued to decline even the addition of Prudhoe Bay.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/stb0405.xls (xls file)

I know this might be shocking to you but oil is a depletable resource. You can't get the same oil out of the ground twice. Eventually this depletion will happen elsewhere in the world just as it has in the US.

Spend about a week on the eia website and educate yourself. Great information.

As far as the refineries go... its a lot margin business. If you are the CEO of a Corporation who has the option between getting a high return on EP or a low margin in refining and retail which would do?

[black01gt]

01WhiteCobra
Refineries are capital intensive. US capacity is at about 17 million barrels a day. To install another 5% capacity would cost in the neighborhood of 10-15 billion dollars.

Record setting profits with hundreds of billion$...
Fuck over a stockholder every once in a while. Jeeez..

Saudi is building a huge refinery at the moment and will ship finished product worldwide. This is going to cut into the margins of refining greatly (they will be able to produce final product much cheaper since their delivery of oil will be much cheaper.)

OH NO :( Forever fucked.

Tight supply is built into the system and maximum capacity utilization produces the best return on investment.

Alledged tight supply...
Alledged maximum capacity...
Like I said. Give the public a break and still make profits. It's like American Airlines and their goddamned $6 bag of chips. Fuck them too.

[01WhiteCobra]

01WhiteCobra
Refineries are capital intensive. US capacity is at about 17 million barrels a day. To install another 5% capacity would cost in the neighborhood of 10-15 billion dollars.

Record setting profits with hundreds of billion$...
Fuck over a stockholder every once in a while. Jeeez..

Saudi is building a huge refinery at the moment and will ship finished product worldwide. This is going to cut into the margins of refining greatly (they will be able to produce final product much cheaper since their delivery of oil will be much cheaper.)

OH NO :( Forever fucked.

Tight supply is built into the system and maximum capacity utilization produces the best return on investment.

Alledged tight supply...
Alledged maximum capacity...
Like I said. Give the public a break and still make profits. It's like American Airlines and their goddamned $6 bag of chips. Fuck them too.

Again, more blah, blah, blah from you without any substance.

Wow, I just saw from your profile that you are 57. It must be sad to be that old and not realize how a business functions.

I had you pegged for an idealistic 20 year old college student with no real world experience.

Very sad.

[black01gt]

I'm sorry, black01gt, America is a society founded on capitalism. Energy companies are not in the business of supply energy at a loss.

I'm really shocked as a supporter of Ron Paul you have a problem with free market enterprise.

I'm curious, how old are you? What do you do for a living?

As far as the refineries go... its a lot margin business. If you are the CEO of a Corporation who has the option between getting a high return on EP or a low margin in refining and retail which would do?
I know that. Even Harken Oil wasn't at one time.

I think free market enterprise is a wonderful thing if kept in check by some means. Same principle as the biggest bully stealing everyone else's lunch money. Nothing new or origional. Just more sophisticated bullies :D . I guess you have to hope that once your "dealer spots that you are seriously addicted he won't become abusive." Like that's not going to happen. It's a supid thing called humanity and respect for something other than yourself. It's why the men were the last to leave the Titanic. It's old school and hokey.

57. Sales.

I know. It's all about the CEO and his flock of "holders".

[black01gt]

Very sad.
I do just fine. Get over it. I don't play the stocks so I see things different than you.

[01WhiteCobra]

I do just fine. Get over it. I don't play the stocks so I see things different than you.

I'm over it. Last time I looked I never had a client check signed by black01gt so I'm not too concerned.

I actually enjoy reading your posts here. I need the comical relief every now and then.

Do yourself a favor and visit the EIA site and educate yourself before you make silly, uninformed, unsubstantiated posts on the subject of oil production and refining in the US.

It's not too hard. I know there are alot of numbers but I'm sure you can handle all the zeroes in the numbers.

[black01gt]

Most consumers have faced it...those in power won't change it. A bomb goes off in the Sudan...a camel farts towards Mecca...it's all the same, because they threaten the worlds' oil supply!
Then shame on us that they're in power.

Don't forget a tropical storm at sea a thousand miles from nowhere and the price goes ape shit. Refinary fires were frequent for decades and it never effected crude/gas prices, and I could swear that there were hurricanes and shit before the Bush regime. I know that world demand is up but I'm tired of paying for fear at the pump.

"He's pickin on Bush" in 5,4,3,2....

Just kidding. It's not Bush's fault. It's Cheney's. What a bunch of dumbasses we are.

[mikeb]

I don't believe that "free market enterprise" and "oil refineries" belong in the same sentence.

The fact is that it is almost impossible for a new player to come into the oil market and build a refinery due to legal and epa regs and the staggering costs involved. This means that the refinery game belongs to those that already own and control them, and there is little possibility of any real competition. The only way to get into the business is to buy someone out. Thus, there is little competition in the oil refinery business, and as such there is every reason to adjust the operation of refineries to achieve the best margins. There is nothing wrong with that in a competitive market, but I submit that oil refining is not competitive for the reasons listed above and that they act as monopolies.

Given the impossibilities of building a new refinery in today's world I would like to see the government get involved to cut red tape and spur development of new refineries, perhaps on unused government controlled land to keep the tree huggers at bay and to spur economic development in depressed areas. I believe you'd see some existing refineries change operating plans when faced with real competition.

[black01gt]

It's not too hard. I know there are alot of numbers but I'm sure you can handle all the zeroes in the numbers.
This shit make you feel better?

[01WhiteCobra]

I don't believe that "free market enterprise" and "oil refineries" belong in the same sentence.

The fact is that it is almost impossible for a new player to come into the oil market and build a refinery due to legal and epa regs and the staggering costs involved. This means that the refinery game belongs to those that already own and control them, and there is little possibility of any real competition. The only way to get into the business is to buy someone out. Thus, there is little competition in the oil refinery business, and as such there is every reason to adjust the operation of refineries to achieve the best margins. There is nothing wrong with that in a competitive market, but I submit that oil refining is not competitive for the reasons listed above and that they act as monopolies.

Given the impossibilities of building a new refinery in today's world I would like to see the government get involved to cut red tape and spur development of new refineries, perhaps on unused government controlled land to keep the tree huggers at bay and to spur economic development in depressed areas. I believe you'd see some existing refineries change operating plans when faced with real competition.

http://www.arizonacleanfuels.com/

It's not impossible and it is being done. We'll see how it works out. From what I've read they'll pretty much have to count on 90% capacity utilization year round to even return 5-6%.

I get that in my savings account.

[mikeb]

http://www.arizonacleanfuels.com/

It's not impossible and it is being done. We'll see how it works out. From what I've read they'll pretty much have to count on 90% capacity utilization year round to even return 5-6%.

I get that in my savings account.

If you read their FAQ they have apparently had a rocky road in getting this thing going, which is my point. Building a new refinery in this day and age is a very tough job requiring a lot of capital and requiring a lot of approvals. There is not going to be much competition in this space, a condition that in other industries (such as electricity and phone service) has spurred the government into action to force competition. I think that the government has some things that they can bring into play here, such as disallowing oil producers to own refineries, and creating legislation that will hasten the ability to build new refineries.

[TexasDevilDog]

I really am happy for your conditions, but you don't need to be smug about someone else's work conditions. High priced gas is not something I buy as a luxury item. The simple truth is after spending $150 a week so I can fucking work (no way around it),

Well, seeing how gasoline is costing you probably $10,000+ a year in pre-tax money, have you even thought about getting another job? Even one that pays you $9,000 less than now, it would put you ahead of the game.

I got offered a Job in Dallas for $15,000 more than I made in Fort Worth. If I take what I get paid a day and divide it by the amount of time spend, from the time I leave in the morning to the time I get back, then it was not worth my time let alone the gas to drive to Dallas. Many people only see the dollar signs from work, not the cost of work. Sucks for them.

[mikeb]

I too like the idea of American made Ethanol. It would reduce our dependence on foreign oil. However, I see it as a double edged sword. It's going to take a lot of energy (probably coal) to convert corn or switchgrass to Ethanol. And the amount of Ethanol that would be needed to supply a large populace will require a lot of land and agriculture. That in turn is going to drive up the cost of food. And then you will have environmental activist bitching and moaning about coal plants that will be needed for the conversion process.

some more reading.

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2008/01/ethanol23

GM has invested into this company. Must be something there.

[TexasDevilDog]

SAN FRANCISCO (AFP) - Microsoft reported its profits surged 81 percent on record-high revenues of 16.37 billion dollars in the last three months of 2007 due to intense demand for computer software.

Microsoft said its net income for the quarter climbed to 4.7 billion dollars, or 50 cents per share, as compared with 2.6 billion dollars, or 26 cents a share, in the same period a year earlier.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080125/ts_alt_afp/technologyitsoftwareearningscompanymicrosoft_08012 5005336

Microsoft profit margin was 28.7 cent on every dollar of revenue. Stupid Exxon-Mobile was only half as profittable. Being in control of prices, Exxon should have drove their profit margin twices as high to catch Microsoft.

[TexasDevilDog]

I too like the idea of American made Ethanol. It would reduce our dependence on foreign oil. However, I see it as a double edged sword. It's going to take a lot of energy (probably coal) to convert corn or switchgrass to Ethanol. And the amount of Ethanol that would be needed to supply a large populace will require a lot of land and agriculture. That in turn is going to drive up the cost of food. And then you will have environmental activist bitching and moaning about coal plants that will be needed for the conversion process.

I wrote a speech for college on why corn based ethanol is not the correct solution.
This is my first draft of my speech for school.
--------------------------

A growing world with maturing economies need more energy than ever before. The United States energy policy of the last quarter century has been mainly the same old thing, oil, with a sprinkling of wind, solar and other technologies. One technology that has received blessings lately in the way of federal tax favor has been corn based ethanol. There are several problems with Corn based ethanol. Corn is a poor biomass stock. The use of it causes excessive demand that drives up the price of food staples to all people. Corn based ethanol is not a proper solution to our energy needs.

First let me answer a question; What is ethanol? Ethanol is also known as ethyl alcohol, drinking alcohol or grain alcohol. Ethyl alcohol is the end product of sugar fermentation and is readily flammable. Ethanol is slightly different from ethyl alcohol as it has been denatured. Denaturing a product means that it has been made unfit for human consumption by adding agents to it. So don't try to drink the ethanol at the gas pumps.

As a biomass energy source, corn is very poor. Why do we use corn than? The United States produces 30% of the world's corn production. Keeping millions of farmers happy seems to be more important than using sound scientific mythologies. The process of cultivating corn, harvesting it and converting it in ethanol takes quite a bit of energy in itself. The net effect of this process is about 30% gain in energy from all the energy used to produce ethanol.

The extensive growth of corn based ethanol here and around the world puts excessive demand on corn prices. Corn and corn meal is a staple product of many cultures around the world. In 2006, ethanol production consumed 14% of the United States corn harvest. The USDA estimates that ethanol manufacturing will double by 2016 and use 25% of the United States corn harvest. I believe that it is energy gluttony that developed countries grow corn to just burned it as an energy source when there are many people around the world that don't get enough to eat.

What else can we do for energy? Other sources of energy that can come from biomass are sugar based ethanol and cellulosic ethanol. Sugar based ethanol is a better solution due to sugarcane contains eight times the energy content than corn does. The problem with sugarcane ethanol is two fold; first sugarcane grows in topical and subtropical regions of the world, second the United States does not have tropical or subtropical regions to grow sugarcane. Brazil has a huge competitive advantage over the United States due to it large sugarcane production and well matured ethanol production industry. For this is the reason the United States government heavily taxes imported ethanol. Cellulosic ethanol has great promise to convert all parts of plants in to ethanol not just from the kernel or food stock. Cellulosic ethanol is produced in a similar way as a cow breaks down grass or hay. The process uses enzymes to break down the cellulose of the plants in to short chain fatty acids that can be converted in to energy. Any type of plant can be use for cellulosic ethanol even grass clipping and trees.The problem with cellulosic ethanol is that the technology is not perfected for industrial scale production.

Our energy needs of tomorrow need to selected in scientific based mythology that are not distorted by government tax incentives that end up drive out best practices. Corn based ethanol can provide us some energy but it should not be looked at as a long term solution to our energy needs.

[01WhiteCobra]

If you read their FAQ they have apparently had a rocky road in getting this thing going, which is my point. Building a new refinery in this day and age is a very tough job requiring a lot of capital and requiring a lot of approvals. There is not going to be much competition in this space, a condition that in other industries (such as electricity and phone service) has spurred the government into action to force competition. I think that the government has some things that they can bring into play here, such as disallowing oil producers to own refineries, and creating legislation that will hasten the ability to build new refineries.

They are doing it though.

American oil companies are building refineries in other parts of the world as well. I think Chevron has got an investment in one in Thailand for example.

Did you miss the low margin portion of the equation? Are you willing to risk billions on a return that is less than 7 or 8% when you can return a little less in a much safer investment? Some that will take years and years to payback?

Decouple oil producers from refineries? Is the government then going to regulate and cap the price of gas? Because you'll see a much wider margin between inputs (oil) and output (gas) as two independent companies jockey to maximize their returns.

The other thing, Mike. Bush has said the country should have a goal of a 20% reduction in gas usage by 2017? Why would an oil company, or any company, invest in something that the current environment will supposedly take care of by the year 2017? When you have an environment of unknown you certainly aren't going to invest billions to get a 5% return. The investment doesn't have a good risk and reward. You are safer keeping your money in other safer low return investments.

Me, I'm more pissed about the increase in the cost of food items over the past year. Partly to blame is the addition of ethanol to the farming equation.

[Vertnut]

Then shame on us that they're in power.

Don't forget a tropical storm at sea a thousand miles from nowhere and the price goes ape shit. Refinary fires were frequent for decades and it never effected crude/gas prices, and I could swear that there were hurricanes and shit before the Bush regime. I know that world demand is up but I'm tired of paying for fear at the pump.

"He's pickin on Bush" in 5,4,3,2....

Just kidding. It's not Bush's fault. It's Cheney's. What a bunch of dumbasses we are.
We were slaves to oil long before Bush and Cheney, but if it makes you feel better...

[Vertnut]

Ethanol is not a long term solution, either.

[01WhiteCobra]

Ethanol is not a long term solution, either.

Exactly... making a multi-billion dollar investment even riskier.

People don't invest billions into the unknown.

[black01gt]

We were slaves to oil long before Bush and Cheney, but if it makes you feel better...
Uh huh...well masta sho got much mo mean.

2000 national gas price average = $1.50 per gallon.

[TexasDevilDog]

Uh huh...well masta sho got much mo mean.

2000 national gas price average = $1.50 per gallon.

http://clapso.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/zfacts-gasoline-price.gif

[black01gt]

I think they're gonna have to raise the ceiling on that chart. Too bad our available cash flow doesn't resemble it.

[black01gt]

Well, seeing how gasoline is costing you probably $10,000+ a year in pre-tax money, have you even thought about getting another job? Even one that pays you $9,000 less than now, it would put you ahead of the game.


I'm thinking about being a Rock Star. :D

I'm hoping to stay in the saddle until I retire. At that point, it'll take an act of congress to get me behind the wheel. Except for playing with my Stang.

Maybe I can be the old guy at WalMart saying "what I can do fer you?" :D

[shlby123]

when they run out of oil there wont be any need to be nice to them anymore ;)
They should PROBABLY start spending a lot more money on defense. IF they arent secretly doing it already of course.

[black01gt]

when they run out of oil there wont be any need to be nice to them anymore ;)
They should PROBABLY start spending a lot more money on defense. IF they arent secretly doing it already of course.
If you mean domestic defense....they are.

[shlby123]

sure enough.

[mikeb]

Did you miss the low margin portion of the equation? Are you willing to risk billions on a return that is less than 7 or 8% when you can return a little less in a much safer investment? Some that will take years and years to payback?

Decouple oil producers from refineries? Is the government then going to regulate and cap the price of gas? Because you'll see a much wider margin between inputs (oil) and output (gas) as two independent companies jockey to maximize their returns.


I was kind of thinking of the model like the electric companies have today, where the distribution medium is a separate entity from the generation itself. The electricity generators hook onto the grid under the control of ERCOT, but don't own the grid. They sell electricity thru it though, and ERCOT governs how that works. The grid exists to service all electricity generators, and all customers, and spurs competition.

Given that refineries are critical to the economic well being of this country and as you have pointed out they are low margin businesses with little incentive to invest in improvements in old ones or to build new ones; then let the refineries be sold and controlled by an ERCOT type of organization. If investments are ever required to increase refining capacity, the oil sellers would be assessed a levy of some kind (perhaps added into the fees already paid to the refinery) to make that happen. The oil producers would have to stay current on their levies to continue to have their oil processed. The refinery would not have a profit motive (although it should make enough to cover it's operational costs and to save for future necessary repairs and maintenance), it's motive should be to ensure that there are is enough refined product available at all times to stabilize energy markets, and dampen the fire of the speculators who want the market to rise every time the US gasoline inventories fall a small amount, or whenever chavez farts.

[01WhiteCobra]

mike, are you pissed at the rise of wheat, corn, milk and soybeans?

Be pissed about the printing press we call the Treasury. If we would have supported the dollar instead of letting drift into oblivion we'd have $30/bbl oil and food that didn't inflate at a rate higher than gas.

Is ERCOT that great?

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/alerts/alerts_view.php?id=145&type=3

[Skidonenko]

What if we don't drive a Hummer and have no choice but to buy 3 to 4 tanks a week to work? It's effected the economy....alot. It is a shame to surrender that to Exxon/Mobil/Chevron/Sheik Haji, etc...

The asshole in the blinged out Hummer is probably in the "all bidness". ;)

Sheik Alibaba's humble abode:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/FeatMike/Arabsareassholes.jpg

Nice hotel, seems they changed the shieks name in your email

http://www.snopes.com/photos/architecture/nahyan.asp

p.s. repost

[black01gt]

Hmmm...
I've had that picture a long time from an email I got. I just remember something about solid gold bathroom fixtures and an Audi made of sterling silver.
Now I feel much better about serving the Saudi's.

Maybe you can shed some light on this pic?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/FeatMike/thatexplainsit-1.jpg

[TexasDevilDog]

mike, are you pissed at the rise of wheat, corn, milk and soybeans?

Be pissed about the printing press we call the Treasury. If we would have supported the dollar instead of letting drift into oblivion we'd have $30/bbl oil and food that didn't inflate at a rate higher than gas.

Is ERCOT that great?

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/alerts/alerts_view.php?id=145&type=3

I agree. The drop of the USD is the biggest contributor to the rise in oil. But I don't think there is anything the Treasury can do. The budget and trade deficits are too high. As the USD falls, less people around the world will want to hold $$$. I see the USD falling untill next year. We'll have $110-120 oil and $4+ gasoline.

[Skidonenko]

Hmmm...
I've had that picture a long time from an email I got. I just remember something about solid gold bathroom fixtures and an Audi made of sterling silver.
Now I feel much better about serving the Saudi's.

Maybe you can shed some light on this pic?



I did not say shit wasnt fucked up, just pointing out the info in the email was bogus

[black01gt]

I did not say shit wasnt fucked up, just pointing out the info in the email was bogus
I know. I should have put a "laugh" at the end of my sarcasim.
I did get that pic in an email with the story that it was a sheik's home. Tucked it away in some pics and haven't thought about it in a while. I do appreciate the accuracy.

[mikeb]

mike, are you pissed at the rise of wheat, corn, milk and soybeans?

Be pissed about the printing press we call the Treasury. If we would have supported the dollar instead of letting drift into oblivion we'd have $30/bbl oil and food that didn't inflate at a rate higher than gas.

Is ERCOT that great?

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/alerts/alerts_view.php?id=145&type=3

I'm aware of the ercot scandal. Still doesn't take away from the concept itself though.

And of course the falling dollar is doing nothing to help improve energy prices.

Still, it irks me that the refinery owners, operating as an effective monopoly, have great incentive and ability to manipulate market prices by adjusting their output up and down with scheduled "outages" and "unexpected" shutdowns. And for how many years have we been hearing that the lack of refineries is a huge part of the problem? And as you pointed out margins in that industry aren't great, providing even more incentive to try to improve margins by whatever means possible (which does not include building new refineries and selling additional product to raise revenues). It is an odd business in many ways, without true competition and with questionable business directions and goals.

The fact is, the US needs refineries to keep the economy rolling. It is critical infrastructure, but IMO is being terribly neglected and is being manipulated for gain by certain groups of people.

More arguments for domestic production of ethanol :)

[black01gt]

I'm aware of the ercot scandal. Still doesn't take away from the concept itself though.


I got caught up in that shit. In '03 I was selling deregulated electricity rates for commercial use only. TXU "decided" that there was a shortage of natural gas (always handy with that "shortage") and in 48 hours our cost on a mega watt went from $50 to $990. We suddenly had 48 hours to come up with an additional $60 million or file chapter 11. I had made $160K in 6 months but suddenly it was determined that those of us who wanted to eat better go find a j-o-b.

That increase in rates and nat gas prices within 48 hours has never come down. There was no natural gas shortage. Salt domes filled to capacity and 100s of tankers off shore with liquid nat gas. Oops. :confused: ERCOT didn't notice. :rolleyes:

[TexasDevilDog]

The fact is, the US needs refineries to keep the economy rolling. It is critical infrastructure, but IMO is being terribly neglected and is being manipulated for gain by certain groups of people.



Tree huggers are not going to let another refinery be built.

[89gt-stanger]

Life's a bitch, and this is just part of it.

all in a nutshell :)

[mikeb]

I got caught up in that shit. In '03 I was selling deregulated electricity rates for commercial use only. TXU "decided" that there was a shortage of natural gas (always handy with that "shortage") and in 48 hours our cost on a mega watt went from $50 to $990. We suddenly had 48 hours to come up with an additional $60 million or file chapter 11. I had made $160K in 6 months but suddenly it was determined that those of us who wanted to eat better go find a j-o-b.

That increase in rates and nat gas prices within 48 hours has never come down. There was no natural gas shortage. Salt domes filled to capacity and 100s of tankers off shore with liquid nat gas. Oops. :confused: ERCOT didn't notice. :rolleyes:

Sounds like ya'll got the hockey stick or a variation thereof.

[black01gt]

Sounds like ya'll got the hockey stick or a variation thereof.
Blind sided at that. Sucker punched I tell ya! :D

[black01gt]

Tree huggers are not going to let another refinery be built.
They're trying hard to put one up in Arizona. Tree huggers aren't the hold up.

[01WhiteCobra]

I got caught up in that shit. In '03 I was selling deregulated electricity rates for commercial use only. TXU "decided" that there was a shortage of natural gas (always handy with that "shortage") and in 48 hours our cost on a mega watt went from $50 to $990. We suddenly had 48 hours to come up with an additional $60 million or file chapter 11. I had made $160K in 6 months but suddenly it was determined that those of us who wanted to eat better go find a j-o-b.

That increase in rates and nat gas prices within 48 hours has never come down. There was no natural gas shortage. Salt domes filled to capacity and 100s of tankers off shore with liquid nat gas. Oops. :confused: ERCOT didn't notice. :rolleyes:

Interesting. My brother in law started a company selling deregulated electric in '03 to commerical accounts. They are about to sell the company a second time in 2008 (well the investment banker than purchased them in 05 is selling them). Sounds more like your situation was due to bad management.

Now, his two partners were very successful (still are) natural gas traders so maybe that has something to do with it.

I'd love to be able to sell a company two times in 5 years... each time for progressively more money.

Curious, which company was it?

[black01gt]

Curious, which company was it?
Texas Commercial Energy. http://www.allbusiness.com/energy-utilities/energy-utility-trade/5957936-1.html
We messed up by trusting ERCOT and the PUC, staying with open market buying versus contracted buying. More margin, while it lasted anyway. Not smart granted, but the PUC and ERCOT let us burn as a "favor" to TXU. It wasn't a risk until we showed up on TXU's radar. We signed up Brinker, Miller Breweries, Lowes, Home Depot, many office towers in Dallas and Houston, many hospitals and other multi location accounts and it pissed TXU off. :o
We went grom the fastest growing company in the state of Texas to chapter 11...in the same week. We all bailed during the "rebuilding". It looked like the parking lot of Enron on the last day. :D

Companies that played it safe like Cirro Energy, etc. lasted..slowly. They also got bogged down in residential supply.
And the name of your bro-in-law's company?

No arguing. That's the story, beginning and end. Not much middle.

[lefty1300]

<i Work For The Natural Gas Industry (12 Yrs)..luv My Job ..but They Are Just As Crooked As The Rest
:(

[ayzo]

Exxon broke its own record today

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g2bWhAvZxrryiRX8QnFU57pz3ctAD8UHJ36G2


HOUSTON (AP) — Exxon Mobil Corp. on Friday posted the largest annual profit by a U.S. company — $40.6 billion — as the world's biggest publicly traded oil company benefited from historic crude prices at year's end.

Exxon also set a U.S. record for the biggest quarterly profit, posting net income of $11.7 billion for the final three months of 2007, beating its own mark of $10.71 billion in the fourth quarter of 2005.

The previous record for annual profit was $39.5 billion, which Exxon Mobil made in 2006.

The eye-popping results weren't a surprise given record prices for a barrel of oil at the end of 2007. For much of the fourth quarter, they hovered around $90 a barrel, more than 50 percent higher than a year ago.

Crude prices reached an all-time trading high of $100.09 on Jan. 3 but have fallen about 10 percent since.

The record profit for the October-December period amounted to $2.13 a share versus $1.76 a share in 2006. Year-ago net income was $10.25 billion.

Also extraordinary was Exxon Mobil's revenue, which rose 30 percent in the fourth quarter to $116.6 billion from $90 billion a year ago.

For the year, sales rose to $404.5 billion — the most ever for the Irving, Texas-based company — from the $377.64 billion it posted in 2006.

In a statement, Exxon Mobil Chairman Rex Tillerson said the company continued to meet the world's energy needs through its "globally diverse resource base."

"Our long-term investment program, in projects often far from major consuming nations, continued to provide resources essential to the increasingly interdependent global energy supply network," Tillerson said.

Exxon Mobil produces about 3 percent of the world's oil.

Its shares fell 65 cents to $85.75 in morning trading after rising as high as $87.86 earlier in the session.

Higher commodity prices in the quarter were clearly evident from earnings at Exxon Mobil's exploration and production arm, known as the upstream. Income rose 32 percent to $8.2 billion from $6.2 billion a year ago.

On an oil-equivalent basis, production increased nearly 1 percent from the fourth quarter of 2006. Excluding the expropriation of its Venezuelan assets last year, divestments and other factors, production rose nearly 3 percent.

Refining and marketing, or downstream, earnings were $2.3 billion, up from nearly 2 billion in the year-ago quarter, as improved refining operations offset lower U.S. refining margins.

In the U.S., downstream earnings were off sharply from a year ago — $622 million in the most-recent quarter versus $945 million in 2006.

Refining margins — the difference between the cost of crude and what the company makes on refined products such as gasoline — have been squeezed in recent months as spiking oil prices outpaced increases in gasoline prices and other refined products.

Already, ConocoPhillips has said record oil prices at the end of 2007 helped it post a 37 percent increase in fourth-quarter profit, even as it produced less crude and natural gas than a year earlier. Its fourth-quarter net income rose to $4.37 billion versus $3.2 billion a year earlier.

ConocoPhillips is the nation's third-largest integrated oil company behind Exxon Mobil and Chevron Corp.

Chevron reporrted separately Friday its profit rose 29.2 percent in the fourth quarter, as surging prices for crude oil offset weak results from its refining business. It earned $4.88 billion, or $2.32 per share, from $3.77 billion, or $1.74 per share, a year earlier. Revenue rose 29 percent to $61.41 billion from $47.75 billion.

On Thursday, Royal Dutch Shell PLC, Europe's largest oil company, reported fourth-quarter profit rose 60 percent to $8.47 billion on asset sales and higher oil prices. What's more, the Anglo-Dutch company said full-year net profit was a record $31.3 billion, up 23 percent from the prior year.

[Mustangman_2000]

Exxon broke its own record today

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g2bWhAvZxrryiRX8QnFU57pz3ctAD8UHJ36G2

In the context of a slowing economy and the Government needing to issue a Economic stimulus package, this is appalling to me.

It's just plain wrong.

[mopar63]

Supply and demand, plain and simple.

[Vertnut]

Just good business...what's worse is the gov't wanting to add another .40 per gallon tax. Now THAT is wrong.

[Stang Seller]

What if we don't drive a Hummer and have no choice but to buy 3 to 4 tanks a week to work? It's effected the economy....alot. It is a shame to surrender that to Exxon/Mobil/Chevron/Sheik Haji, etc...

The asshole in the blinged out Hummer is probably in the "all bidness". ;)

Sheik Alibaba's humble abode:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/FeatMike/Arabsareassholes.jpg
That's a hotel, and those are rental cars for the rich guests. The two most expensive suites get the Bentley's, with drivers.
SS