USA education below international standard

[jones4stangs]

http://www.oecd.org/topic/0,3373,en_2649_37455_1_1_1_1_37455,00.html

Primary and secondary education in the United States

The average educational attainment of US students is weak by international comparison. For example, mean results of PISA test scores are below the OECD average. This is despite substantial resources devoted to the schooling system.

This is a worth a read.
http://www.olis.oecd.org/olis/2007doc.nsf/LinkTo/NT000058B2/$FILE/JT03237658.PDF

I guess I better start rethinking of my kids grades in these terms:
A = good, B = average, C = failing

[FSON]

But for some reason when we get to college, we kick ass.

[fitzwell]

You can thank the TAAS test, or TAKS, or whatever test it is this week. The system reduces teachers to teaching to the test, not actual learning. The elementry school equivalent to the college method of "assimilate, differentiate & regurgitate"
Throw into the mix of having to teach the lesson in two languages......


:mad:

[red93coupe]

http://www.oecd.org/topic/0,3373,en_2649_37455_1_1_1_1_37455,00.html

Primary and secondary education in the United States

The average educational attainment of US students is weak by international comparison. For example, mean results of PISA test scores are below the OECD average. This is despite substantial resources devoted to the schooling system.

This is a worth a read.
http://www.olis.oecd.org/olis/2007doc.nsf/LinkTo/NT000058B2/$FILE/JT03237658.PDF

I guess I better start rethinking of my kids grades in these terms:
A = good, B = average, C = failing


Well, that's a European website; of course our schools suck! check out this link too

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3651/is_199604/ai_n8757818

[Zarathustra]

I think the teachers and curriculum have almost zero to do with it. School districts are more and more turning away from a moral education platform, in favor of turning over that portion of what a child must learn to their parents. Political and sociological red tape has sectioned off 'education' in America as a very cut and dry, memory based curriculum devoid of many of the things that are necessary and beneficial to a developing child or adolescent. The absence of at least some type of moral education has to be the culprit. Virtue, morality, value-these things are literally thrown aside in a lame attempt to stuff children full of rather useless information so they will do better on the test they must pass in order to progress in grade level. These philosophical ideals are imperative to a normal life, as everyday in our lives, philosophical problems make themselves known. In the person whose senses are tuned for the higher spheres of thought, these problems are shrugged off and sometimes not even noticed, simply because of the higher reasoning skills these kids have acquired through the years. This is completely absent from contemporary American schools, and attempts are being made at making the change--but it won't come quickly. They turn a blind eye to the very skills these students will put to use ;for the duration of their time on earth. I have seen this at work, as indeed, up until a few years ago--I too was unaware that these ideals existed as schools of thought, and I along with many others endorse these very foundaton-building philosophical ideals. Forced to develop without these very basic ideals of philosophical critical reasoning, young students are unable to grasp and apply these principles in their daily lives, leaving them with a very devolved and diluted world view. Curriculum is swept over, memorization takes precedence, and the true acquisition of knowledge hangs in the balance.

[jones4stangs]

Well, that's a European website; of course our schools suck! check out this link too

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3651/is_199604/ai_n8757818

Essentially, Berliner and Biddle contend that a crisis has been deliberately manufactured by government, business, and the press to divert attention away from the real problems faced by our public schools.

Sounds a like a pretty shaky book if this is it's contention.

[Pro Trash]

I think the teachers and curriculum have almost zero to do with it. School districts are more and more turning away from a moral education platform, in favor of turning over that portion of what a child must learn to their parents. Political and sociological red tape has sectioned off 'education' in America as a very cut and dry, memory based curriculum devoid of many of the things that are necessary and beneficial to a developing child or adolescent. The absence of at least some type of moral education has to be the culprit. Virtue, morality, value-these things are literally thrown aside in a lame attempt to stuff children full of rather useless information so they will do better on the test they must pass in order to progress in grade level. These philosophical ideals are imperative to a normal life, as everyday in our lives, philosophical problems make themselves known. In the person whose senses are tuned for the higher spheres of thought, these problems are shrugged off and sometimes not even noticed, simply because of the higher reasoning skills these kids have acquired through the years. This is completely absent from contemporary American schools, and attempts are being made at making the change--but it won't come quickly. They turn a blind eye to the very skills these students will put to use ;for the duration of their time on earth. I have seen this at work, as indeed, up until a few years ago--I too was unaware that these ideals existed as schools of thought, and I along with many others endorse these very foundaton-building philosophical ideals. Forced to develop without these very basic ideals of philosophical critical reasoning, young students are unable to grasp and apply these principles in their daily lives, leaving them with a very devolved and diluted world view. Curriculum is swept over, memorization takes precedence, and the true acquisition of knowledge hangs in the balance.

I am a teacher and you are so far off base. We in the profession realize the kids are being raised by kids essentially. I constantly counsel my young men about manners, being appropriate and so forth. When I have kids coming into my class like one whose father showed that student a few x rated films when they were 9 and told them that is what relationships are about. The father is now back in jail, the mother although young constantly seeks assistance from the school to better her child and we work hard to help this young student develop a moral compass. I have had little girls in my class who were molested by family members, etc. Your statement on moral education shows you have zero qualifications to judge the education system of this country.

As for testing and curriculum, we do not teach memory techniques. We constantly train and learn new strategies to increase critical thinking and our curriculum is step designed. We collaborate across grade levels to create a learning environment that enriches the child’s understanding. I do agree this has only been in place for a little over 10 years and is a new movement in the education system. Testing is what the general public has agreed to and politicians/bureaucrats have lobbied for. There is a lot of money in testing, writing the tests, observing testing, and curriculum to make students more test successful. I can promise you a lot of folks would be pissed if testing stopped for they make their living from it very existence. They are not basing their concern on student learning but they play on the publics concern and general ignorance to how learning takes place. They are then allowed to create thousands of jobs both within and outside the public education system that relies so much on testing.

[JP135]

You can thank the TAAS test, or TAKS, or whatever test it is this week. The system reduces teachers to teaching to the test, not actual learning. The elementry school equivalent to the college method of "assimilate, differentiate & regurgitate"
Throw into the mix of having to teach the lesson in two languages......


:mad:

Bingo.

[01WhiteCobra]

It's all Pro Trash's fault.

I'm glad it's below average... less competition for my girls.

[5.0_CJ]

I think the teachers and curriculum have almost zero to do with it. School districts are more and more turning away from a moral education platform, in favor of turning over that portion of what a child must learn to their parents. Political and sociological red tape has sectioned off 'education' in America as a very cut and dry, memory based curriculum devoid of many of the things that are necessary and beneficial to a developing child or adolescent. The absence of at least some type of moral education has to be the culprit. Virtue, morality, value-these things are literally thrown aside in a lame attempt to stuff children full of rather useless information so they will do better on the test they must pass in order to progress in grade level. These philosophical ideals are imperative to a normal life, as everyday in our lives, philosophical problems make themselves known. In the person whose senses are tuned for the higher spheres of thought, these problems are shrugged off and sometimes not even noticed, simply because of the higher reasoning skills these kids have acquired through the years. This is completely absent from contemporary American schools, and attempts are being made at making the change--but it won't come quickly. They turn a blind eye to the very skills these students will put to use ;for the duration of their time on earth. I have seen this at work, as indeed, up until a few years ago--I too was unaware that these ideals existed as schools of thought, and I along with many others endorse these very foundaton-building philosophical ideals. Forced to develop without these very basic ideals of philosophical critical reasoning, young students are unable to grasp and apply these principles in their daily lives, leaving them with a very devolved and diluted world view. Curriculum is swept over, memorization takes precedence, and the true acquisition of knowledge hangs in the balance.

I can't believe I'm reading this. You're advocating moral values be taught in public education? Or did I read that wrong?

[Zarathustra]

I am a teacher and you are so far off base. We in the profession realize the kids are being raised by kids essentially. I constantly counsel my young men about manners, being appropriate and so forth. When I have kids coming into my class like one whose father showed that student a few x rated films when they were 9 and told them that is what relationships are about. The father is now back in jail, the mother although young constantly seeks assistance from the school to better her child and we work hard to help this young student develop a moral compass. I have had little girls in my class who were molested by family members, etc. Your statement on moral education shows you have zero qualifications to judge the education system of this country.

As for testing and curriculum, we do not teach memory techniques. We constantly train and learn new strategies to increase critical thinking and our curriculum is step designed. We collaborate across grade levels to create a learning environment that enriches the child’s understanding. I do agree this has only been in place for a little over 10 years and is a new movement in the education system. Testing is what the general public has agreed to and politicians/bureaucrats have lobbied for. There is a lot of money in testing, writing the tests, observing testing, and curriculum to make students more test successful. I can promise you a lot of folks would be pissed if testing stopped for they make their living from it very existence. They are not basing their concern on student learning but they play on the publics concern and general ignorance to how learning takes place. They are then allowed to create thousands of jobs both within and outside the public education system that relies so much on testing.


So because you're a teacher, you hold the key to what the country's education needs? Maybe you're the problem. Who are you to tell me my opinion is wrong? What is so off base about teaching kids basic life skills without injecting useless information? What is so wrong about my opinion? You say I'm way off base, but there was absolutely no refutation in your rebuttal. If I'm so wrong, tell me what I'm wrong about.

I need not possess 'qualifications' to judge the education system, all I need is these here fingers and this here brain. So stop trying to belittle me, just refute my arguments. To say that you represent the education profession is a fucking joke, you're but one in a sea of teachers, so don't try and act like you have the entire profession behind you, with the 'we' shit.

I agree with you when you say that students are essentially taught by students. This in itself, seems to be one of the concepts that escapes you. What I was getting at, was that the student needs to be surrounded by an environment in which these values are allowed to take precedence, and to see other students acting virtuously and in such a way that fosters good will. And in this way form a community of good will and doing the right things all the time, not just when they're at school, or around their teachers. Learning hangs in the balance, standardized tests are bullshit. The very same attitude you just took toward me only further substantiates the fact that these kids need something different. You're teaching them intolerance, sloganization, to turn away from critical discussion and dialogical interaction and towards indifferent standardized tests. Which in turn makes them memorize things that they wouldn't normally. You may not be teaching them to memorize it, but that's exactly what they're doing. None of it is stored in the long-term memory. Kids don't care about becoming more intelligent, all they want to do it go to the next grade with their friends. Standardized tests only serve to make this problem worse.

Education is philosophical to the extent that it is fundamentally dialogical, though in a wider sense. Pierre Bordieu once famously protested (in Acts of Resistance) that "the logic of political life, that of denunciation and slander, and falsification of the adversary's thought had permeated all discourse, even academic, instead of having the logic of intellectual life, that of argument and refutation," to be exported to public life. Philosophical (Moral) education aims at this latter goal.

All that being said, Mr. Pro Trash, how do you feel about Indoctrination?

[Mustangman_2000]

I am a teacher and you are so far off base. We in the profession realize the kids are being raised by kids essentially. I constantly counsel my young men about manners, being appropriate and so forth. When I have kids coming into my class like one whose father showed that student a few x rated films when they were 9 and told them that is what relationships are about. The father is now back in jail, the mother although young constantly seeks assistance from the school to better her child and we work hard to help this young student develop a moral compass. I have had little girls in my class who were molested by family members, etc. Your statement on moral education shows you have zero qualifications to judge the education system of this country.

As for testing and curriculum, we do not teach memory techniques. We constantly train and learn new strategies to increase critical thinking and our curriculum is step designed. We collaborate across grade levels to create a learning environment that enriches the child’s understanding. I do agree this has only been in place for a little over 10 years and is a new movement in the education system. Testing is what the general public has agreed to and politicians/bureaucrats have lobbied for. There is a lot of money in testing, writing the tests, observing testing, and curriculum to make students more test successful. I can promise you a lot of folks would be pissed if testing stopped for they make their living from it very existence. They are not basing their concern on student learning but they play on the publics concern and general ignorance to how learning takes place. They are then allowed to create thousands of jobs both within and outside the public education system that relies so much on testing.

Teachers don't get nearly enough credit in our society. Kudos to you for trying to educate or even tolerate these desensitized break.com idiots we call "kids" today.

[Zarathustra]

Here's a relevant read.

linky (http://books.google.com/books?id=8E5LDkjeAwkC&pg=PA219&lpg=PA219&dq=the+concept+of+the+educated+person&source=web&ots=5P0WJAui_C&sig=sSEwubgXo9dps-0vfSN690afvUM#PPA219,M1)

[ayzo]

The system gets some of the blame but most of it should go to the parents. I remember when I was in school all the kids with straight A's and high test scores were the ones who would get grounded and have their tv, playstation, and cd player taken away if they didn't. Today, teachers can't even give a student an F without risking a lawsuit for making the kid feel like a loser.

[Paladin]

I think the teachers and curriculum have almost zero to do with it. School districts are more and more turning away from a moral education platform, in favor of turning over that portion of what a child must learn to their parents. Political and sociological red tape has sectioned off 'education' in America as a very cut and dry, memory based curriculum devoid of many of the things that are necessary and beneficial to a developing child or adolescent. The absence of at least some type of moral education has to be the culprit. Virtue, morality, value-these things are literally thrown aside in a lame attempt to stuff children full of rather useless information so they will do better on the test they must pass in order to progress in grade level. These philosophical ideals are imperative to a normal life, as everyday in our lives, philosophical problems make themselves known. In the person whose senses are tuned for the higher spheres of thought, these problems are shrugged off and sometimes not even noticed, simply because of the higher reasoning skills these kids have acquired through the years. This is completely absent from contemporary American schools, and attempts are being made at making the change--but it won't come quickly. They turn a blind eye to the very skills these students will put to use ;for the duration of their time on earth. I have seen this at work, as indeed, up until a few years ago--I too was unaware that these ideals existed as schools of thought, and I along with many others endorse these very foundaton-building philosophical ideals. Forced to develop without these very basic ideals of philosophical critical reasoning, young students are unable to grasp and apply these principles in their daily lives, leaving them with a very devolved and diluted world view. Curriculum is swept over, memorization takes precedence, and the true acquisition of knowledge hangs in the balance.

Your thought that morals, virtue, and values are important is correct. You are way off base if you think teachers should be imposing their views upon others children. It is my job to give my daughter morals, vallues and virtue. The children who are lacking in these areas have parents who are dropping the ball. There is no teacher in the world who can undo poor parenting.

The average teacher, especially in PS's, have very different morals and values than I do. I don't want them imposing their views of the world on my child, much like you would probably not want me to impose my morals and values on your child if I were a teacher.

[Zarathustra]

Your thought that morals, virtue, and values are important is correct. You are way off base if you think teachers should be imposing their views upon others children. It is my job to give my daughter morals, vallues and virtue. The children who are lacking in these areas have parents who are dropping the ball. There is no teacher in the world who can undo poor parenting.

The average teacher, especially in PS's, have very different morals and values than I do. I don't want them imposing their views of the world on my child, much like you would probably not want me to impose my morals and values on your child if I were a teacher.

Of course they're not going to impose their own views on anyone, that's not what I'm getting at. The children should be confronted with situations in which these ideals should, can, and will come into play. Activities which promote these life-skills building thought processes are designed to strengthen the very foundation on which a person's sense of value is built. To a certain extent, at least in some cases, these activities are employed and are very found to be very useful in essentially guiding a child's life through this very fragile part of their upbringing. I think what you thought I said should be done is having teachers impose their thoughts and belief patterns themselves on children. The concepts need to be over gone, mostly as generalizing schools of thought, and the connections between the ideals and their daily lives will be formed. Seems to me as if the latter process takes place long after the child is past this very delicate stage of development. As everyone is different, this seems to be the heart of the intrinsic debate on the subject, but it seems to be one very worthy of discussion nonetheless.

[Paladin]

Of course they're not going to impose their own views on anyone, that's not what I'm getting at. The children should be confronted with situations in which these ideals should, can, and will come into play. Activities which promote these life-skills building thought processes are designed to strengthen the very foundation on which a person's sense of value is built. To a certain extent, at least in some cases, these activities are employed and are very found to be very useful in essentially guiding a child's life through this very fragile part of their upbringing. I think what you thought I said should be done is having teachers impose their thoughts and belief patterns themselves on children. The concepts need to be over gone, mostly as generalizing schools of thought, and the connections between the ideals and their daily lives will be formed. Seems to me as if the latter process takes place long after the child is past this very delicate stage of development. As everyone is different, this seems to be the heart of the intrinsic debate on the subject, but it seems to be one very worthy of discussion nonetheless.

Ok, with some clarification I see where you were going, but I still have reservations about a teacher going too far into morals, virtues, and values. I think this is for parents and maybe even the church/religious arena, not the classroom.

[Slowhand]

the retardedness of the TAKS test has little to do with it...it really is much more in how shittily parents parent today.

[Vertnut]

Ok, with some clarification I see where you were going, but I still have reservations about a teacher going too far into morals, virtues, and values. I think this is for parents and maybe even the church/religious arena, not the classroom.
The problem is most parents aren't doing their jobs. To some kids, their teacher is the only adult they are in contact with.

[Zarathustra]

Ok, with some clarification I see where you were going, but I still have reservations about a teacher going too far into morals, virtues, and values. I think this is for parents and maybe even the church/religious arena, not the classroom.

This is true, this is true. And I'm glad you said it, because this is what I was ultimately getting at. The church/religious arena you refer to is, in my opinion, the largest contributor to this problem we are exploring through discussion. This seems ironic, because common conceptions would point the finger in the opposite direction.