question for the anti god folks....

[Pro88LX]

do you celebrate CHRISTmas? if so, please explain why you celebrate the birth of Jesus..............

Had a discussion on this at work today, and wanted to see the consensus here.

[talisman]

do you celebrate CHRISTmas? if so, please explain why you celebrate the birth of Jesus..............

Had a discussion on this at work today, and wanted to see the consensus here.



Christmas was a pagen holiday before it was a celebration of the so called birth of christ.

[flashstang04]

Christmas was a pagen holiday before it was a celebration of the so called birth of christ.



soooooooo do you celebrate it? Or just evade it like the original question.

[exlude]

soooooooo do you celebrate it? Or just evade it like the original question.

You sure do seem to be getting more and more hostile lately. Making me reconsider how I should address you. I'm trying to be amiable thus far.

I'm athiest and I celebrate Christmas. It has about as much meaning to me as New Years, which I also celebrate. They are both man made constructs in my eyes after all (god, years). It's just tradition, and a damn good excuse to party.

[AdamLX]

soooooooo do you celebrate it? Or just evade it like the original question.

So do you celebrate the original pagan holiday?

[DarkWolf]

do you celebrate CHRISTmas? if so, please explain why you celebrate the birth of Jesus..............

Had a discussion on this at work today, and wanted to see the consensus here.

I don't celebrate CHRISTmas, but I do celebrate Yule. I'm down with the hip lingo though, I can say "Merry christmas" like everyone else, but I'll keep spreading the Yuletide cheer.

Tell me, do you decorate a christmas tree?

[flashstang04]

you mean the pagan ritual of setting up a tree and decorating it? Of course, but I make it a tree to honor Christ and as such..is not pagan anymore.

[White trash wagon]

do you celebrate CHRISTmas? if so, please explain why you celebrate the birth of Jesus..............

Had a discussion on this at work today, and wanted to see the consensus here.

Why do Christian's think if you not a Christian, you are an athiest? Jews, Muslims, & even LDS Christians don't observe Christmas but they beleive in God.

The pagan holiday of Christmas is so bastardized, commercialized and abused it's sickening. The theme of Christmas is the sound of cash registers, that retailers rely on for 40% of thier yearly sales. Corporate America laughs all the way to the bank during Christmas.

What do elves, Santa Claus, Christmas trees, "Flying" reindeer have to do with the birth of Christ? Nothing, it's all lies You do know Christmas trees are specifically forbiden in the Bible, right?

Jeremiah 10
1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not

Scott

[Duncan]

Christmas was a pagen holiday before it was a celebration of the so called birth of christ.

LOL! I just learned that on Supernatural, who says tv cant be educational :D And that JHC was born in the Fall

[DarkWolf]

you mean the pagan ritual of setting up a tree and decorating it? Of course, but I make it a tree to honor Christ and as such..is not pagan anymore.

Making an idol is forbidden, according to the bible. Whether it's an idol to a pagan god, or jesus, it's still an idol.

Perhaps you should rethink decorating that tree, hmm?

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

jesus wasn't born on christmas day

[Brain_Mach1]

If Christmas was not Christian, Christ and Mass would not be the roots of the name.

The question is about the date that is used to observe the birth of Christ.

Christmas is a Christian holiday.

Winter Solstice is a pagan holiday.

The Roman Catholic Church celebrates Christmas on Dec 25th shortly after the Winter Solstice because Jesus is the light of the world and it is obvious that the days are growing longer on Dec 25th. Most Christians follow the same calendar. This was chosen to supplant the pagan holiday, not to adopt it.

Some Eastern Rite Churches celebrate Christmas in January 6th. So much for the pagan holiday… So much for Christ being born on a specific day.....

The Roman Church often moved feasts and dates to correspond to pagan dates to supplant the pagan religion liturgy. The Eastern Church was not in contact with the barbarians of Europe to the extent that the Roman Church was so there is a greater assimilation of Roman holidays to pagan holidays.

The Greeks and the Romans do not celebrate Easter on the same day.

A good example of playing with the calendar to affect the lives of the community, take the Peace of God. The Church forbid warfare on feast days. The Catholic Church has a feast of some sort on almost everyday of the calendar. Does this mean that the Church condones warfare? Or is the Church trying to replace one thing with another?

[Brain_Mach1]

Oh yeah,

Feast of Saint Nicholas is December 6th and he is from present day Turkey and not the North Pole.

Legend has it that he threw 3 purses of gold coins into a poor mans home to be a dowry for his daughters under cover of night. I guess this is where we get Santa Claus coming at night to leave presents.

[Way Cool Jr]

jesus wasn't born on christmas day

x2

Also, just because you are an atheist, doesn't mean you are "anti-god". How can we be "anti-god" when we don't believe in god.

[Way Cool Jr]

Israeli meteorologists tracked December weather patterns for many years and concluded that the climate in Israel has been essentially constant for at least the last 2,000 years. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible states that, "broadly speaking, weather phenomena and climatic conditions as pictured in the Bible correspond with conditions as observed today" (R.B.Y. Scott, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1962, p. 625).

The temperature in the area of Bethlehem in December averages around 44 degrees Fahrenheit (7 degrees Celsius) but can drop to well below freezing, especially at night. Describing the weather there, Sara Ruhin, chief of the Israeli weather service, noted in a 1990 press release that the area has three months of frost: December with 29 F. [minus 1.6 C.]; January with 30 F. [minus 1.1 C.] and February with 32 F. [0 C.].

Snow is common for two or three days in Jerusalem and nearby Bethlehem in December and January. These were the winter months of increased precipitation in Christ's time, when the roads became practically unusable and people stayed mostly indoors.

This is important evidence to disprove a December date for Christ's birth. Note that, at the time of Christ's birth, the shepherds tended their flocks in the fields at night. "Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields," wrote one Gospel writer, "keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). A common practice of shepherds was keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but in the cold and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and sheltered them.

One commentary admits that, "as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact, which casts considerable light upon this disputed point" (Adam Clarke's Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, note on Luke 2:8).

Another study source agrees: "These humble pastoral folk are out in the field at night with their flock—a feature of the story which would argue against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted it" (The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1971, note on Luke 2:4-7).

[propellerhead]

I'm athiest and I celebrate Christmas. It has about as much meaning to me as New Years, which I also celebrate. They are both man made constructs in my eyes after all (god, years). It's just tradition, and a damn good excuse to party.
+1

Why do some Christians question it when I buy presents and give them as Christmas gifts (which is the Christian thing to do)?

[FSON]

YULE was celebrated long before Christmas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

[flashstang04]

You sure do seem to be getting more and more hostile lately. Making me reconsider how I should address you. I'm trying to be amiable thus far.

I'm athiest and I celebrate Christmas. It has about as much meaning to me as New Years, which I also celebrate. They are both man made constructs in my eyes after all (god, years). It's just tradition, and a damn good excuse to party.

I don't think it is that there is more hostility, if you pay attention to who I am addressing, you will see that I meet the tone of the question or comment. I surely have not been hostile to you, throughout our discussions, even gave you a compliment in another thread. See, what bothers me is when people come in here (this forum) and make one comment and then leave....just to "get at the Christians"..for one, this is juvenile, and two, one cannot respond because it is usually a stupid comment. It is not like the discussions that you and I engage in for instance. So if I come across that way, it is unintended. But there you go, thats the reason....


Now to address an earlier question:

No, setting up a tree, even though it has pagan roots, is not bad. As long as the intention is right. An idol by definition is thus:

i·dol (dl)
n.
1.
a. An image used as an object of worship.
b. A false god.
2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
3. Something visible but without substance.


None of these apply. The tree is simply like a gift. It is not worshiped, because I can't wait to put it away each year (one of those pre lit nightmares)

It is obviously not a god of any kind...if it were I would be tempted to pray to it for a new Vortech, which I know would be as close as I would get to getting one.

We don't adore it in any way, it just looks nice from outside with the windows open.

The last one is tricky....it is visible , but HAS substance. We put ornaments that reflect our family and things we have done/accomplished together. So in that regard, it has much substance...


Anyway, there it is....

[SlowLX]

hanukkah is so much better than xmas

[Pro88LX]

Why do Christian's think if you not a Christian, you are an athiest? Jews, Muslims, & even LDS Christians don't observe Christmas but they beleive in God.

The pagan holiday of Christmas is so bastardized, commercialized and abused it's sickening. The theme of Christmas is the sound of cash registers, that retailers rely on for 40% of thier yearly sales. Corporate America laughs all the way to the bank during Christmas.

What do elves, Santa Claus, Christmas trees, "Flying" reindeer have to do with the birth of Christ? Nothing, it's all lies You do know Christmas trees are specifically forbiden in the Bible, right?

Jeremiah 10
1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not

Scott


i said ANTI GOD in the thread title.....

[White trash wagon]

i said ANTI GOD in the thread title.....

What is anti-God? Since athiest don't believe in God, they can't be anti-God. I don't believe in ghosts, so I can't be anti-ghost. Did you mean anti-Christian?

Scott

[exlude]

i said ANTI GOD in the thread title.....

I don't think many people, if any, are anti-god.

[talisman]

I'm anti-religion. If I believed in god, I think he'd be a lot cooler dude than most world relgions paint him out to be. I'd say most religions make him look like more of an alcoholic step father than anything else.

[DarkWolf]

Now to address an earlier question:

No, setting up a tree, even though it has pagan roots, is not bad. As long as the intention is right. An idol by definition is thus:

The tree is an idol. It is a representation of an object/being of worship. The act of decorating the tree is a pagan rite. You can hide behind the textbook definition if it makes you feel better, but you cannot deny where the origins of the practice came from.

[flashstang04]

The tree is an idol. It is a a representation of an object/being of worship. The act of decorating the tree is a pagan rite. You can hide behind the textbook definition if it makes you feel better, but you cannot deny where the origins of the practice came from.


I did no such thing.. I freely admitted that is where its origins are, same with "easter eggs". What you are failing to grasp is that it is not set up as a representation of an object/being of worship.

So you can say that if it makes YOU feel better, but it is neither set up as a object, nor a being of worship.... I think you are barking up the wrong "tree"

[jluv]

I'm not anti-God. I was raised Christian, but nowadays my personal stance on things is this: Who really knows? Maybe the Christians are right. Maybe the Jews are right. Maybe the Muslims have it right. Heck, maybe they all have it partially right or perhaps they are all dead wrong. Faith is one thing, but the simple FACT of the matter is that none of us really know for sure what exactly happened and what happens when we die. None of us have been on the other side (if there is one) and can talk about it today. Just like none of us know for sure that heaven doesn't exist. I personally like the idea that some kind of awesome being created the universe, and that we get to heaven when we die, but I would never claim to know for sure. I think a lot of these books that religions are based so literally on were really just a book of morals and guidelines joined up with creative stories to add interest and example, much like Aesop's Fables. By not fully backing and not denouncing any of the religions, I'm kinda keeping my options open. I'm wise enough and comfortable enough to admit that I really don't have a clue. I'd consider myself foolishly cocky if I insisted that I somehow know exactly what the truth is. BUT, I give religious peeps the benefit of the doubt - not labeling them as foolish or cocky but just realizing that they have chosen to believe in something. A lot of people can live better with something to believe in. Me, I don't need it. I'm totally fine with not knowing or picking one thing to believe in.


Anyway, with that said, YES, I do celebrate Christmas. I have two trees in the house. I have 3 or 4 nativity scenes set up. I listen to Christmas songs that talk about Jesus. Hey, I'm pulling for the guy! If he's the real deal, that's great. It's convenient, my family (parents and grandparents, etc) are into it, and it encourages happiness and kindness and all that fun stuff. If that pisses anyone off, I don't give a crud. I'm not worried about all the deep meaning of it and I'm not trying to win the Christain of the year award or the athiest of the year award. I also don't care if it's a silly commericalized thing. So what? You just do you and Imma do me.

[Pro88LX]

What is anti-God? Since athiest don't believe in God, they can't be anti-God. I don't believe in ghosts, so I can't be anti-ghost. Did you mean anti-Christian?

Scott

by anti God, i meant those that dont believe God exists

[Pro88LX]

I'm not anti-God. I was raised Christian, but nowadays my personal stance on things is this: Who really knows? Maybe the Christians are right. Maybe the Jews are right. Maybe the Muslims have it right. Heck, maybe they all have it partially right or perhaps they are all dead wrong. Faith is one thing, but the simple FACT of the matter is that none of us really know for sure what exactly happened and what happens when we die. None of us have been on the other side (if there is one) and can talk about it today. Just like none of us know for sure that heaven doesn't exist. I personally like the idea that some kind of awesome being created the universe, and that we get to heaven when we die, but I would never claim to know for sure. I think a lot of these books that religions are based so literally on were really just a book of morals and guidelines joined up with creative stories to add interest and example, much like Aesop's Fables. By not fully backing and not denouncing any of the religions, I'm kinda keeping my options open. I'm wise enough and comfortable enough to admit that I really don't have a clue. I'd consider myself foolishly cocky if I insisted that I somehow know exactly what the truth is. BUT, I give religious peeps the benefit of the doubt - not labeling them as foolish or cocky but just realizing that they have chosen to believe in something. A lot of people can live better with something to believe in. Me, I don't need it. I'm totally fine with not knowing or picking one thing to believe in.


Anyway, with that said, YES, I do celebrate Christmas. I have two trees in the house. I have 3 or 4 nativity scenes set up. I listen to Christmas songs that talk about Jesus. Hey, I'm pulling for the guy! If he's the real deal, that's great. It's convenient, my family (parents and grandparents, etc) are into it, and it encourages happiness and kindness and all that fun stuff. If that pisses anyone off, I don't give a crud. I'm not worried about all the deep meaning of it and I'm not trying to win the Christain of the year award or the athiest of the year award. I also don't care if it's a silly commericalized thing. So what? You just do you and Imma do me.


fair enough. :)

[DarkWolf]

I did no such thing.. I freely admitted that is where its origins are, same with "easter eggs". What you are failing to grasp is that it is not set up as

So you can say that if it makes YOU feel better, but it is neither set up as a object, nor a being of worship.... I think you are barking up the wrong "tree"

IT (the tree) is not the object/being of worship... hence the "representation of" portion of the definition. The tree is recognized pretty much the world over as a symbol of christmas. It represents christmas. Christmas is the celebration of Jesus' birth. Jesus is (or I should hope, if you truly call yourself christian) a being of worship and adoration. Making the tree a representation of Jesus.

An idol.

You can't shush it away, doing so doesn't change the fact it's forbidden in the bible you claim is the unerring word of God. What it does do, is make you feel better. Less guilty. And certainly easier than "being those weird people on the block that don't put up any decorations or a tree."

If you're ok with that, then more power to you! No one is suggesting you cease the practice. But you do need to be aware of what it is you're actually doing. (I'm using "you" in the royal sense, by the way)

[DarkWolf]

by anti God, i meant those that dont believe God exists

That by definition would be atheist, which does not imply anti-God.

Anti-God implies a conscious opposition, which requires a belief in "God."

[White trash wagon]

by anti God, i meant those that dont believe God exists

Your speaking non-sense, define ANTI

Anti: 1. against 2. hostile to 3. operates against. (Webster's)

To be against God, or hostile to God, or operate against God, means you must first believe in God. How can you be hostile towards something that doesn't exist (in the mind of an athiest)?

Scott

[Mr Majestyk]

The tree is an idol. It is a representation of an object/being of worship. The act of decorating the tree is a pagan rite. You can hide behind the textbook definition if it makes you feel better, but you cannot deny where the origins of the practice came from.

It's an icon, not an idol. You used the incorrect word "idol" in your original post/argument. Idols cannot be made to God, because that would require the Creator's image to be crafted by those He created, and no one is privy to that information. Christmas trees are not "worshipped" either, at least not by Christians. Decoration and celebration are not the same as worship.

[Pro88LX]

Your speaking non-sense, define ANTI

Anti: 1. against 2. hostile to 3. operates against. (Webster's)

To be against God, or hostile to God, or operate against God, means you must first believe in God. How can you be hostile towards something that doesn't exist (in the mind of an athiest)?

Scott

ok, to clarify once again....those people against the idea that there is a god.......is that better?....fuck........... some of y'all are reading a little too far into this.

[SlowLX]

ok, to clarify once again....those people against the idea that there is a god.......is that better?....fuck........... some of y'all are reading a little too far into this.
doesn't God not like cursing?

[flashstang04]

It's an icon, not an idol. You used the incorrect word "idol" in your original post/argument. Idols cannot be made to God, because that would require the Creator's image to be crafted by those He created, and no one is privy to that information. Christmas trees are not "worshipped" either, at least not by Christians. Decoration and celebration are not the same as worship.

Excellent point! I dont think it will satisfy though

[Pro88LX]

doesn't God not like cursing?

its just a word..............

[SlowLX]

its just a word..............
just like fucking a girl outside of marriage is just an action?

[Pro88LX]

just like fucking a girl outside of marriage is just an action?

that is the worst comparison i have ever heard lol.

[SlowLX]

that is the worst comparison i have ever heard lol.
im all up on my pain meds and more or less bored and trying to antagonize someone

[Pro88LX]

im all up on my pain meds and more or less bored and trying to antagonize someone

well go fuck around in the seb vs jkd thread then asshole!!!!! LOL

[SlowLX]

well go fuck around in the seb vs jkd thread then asshole!!!!! LOL
too much reading to catch up on

[Pro88LX]

too much reading to catch up on


looks like you don't have anything better to do anyways............It makes for some good and pretty funny reading lol

[DarkWolf]

It's an icon, not an idol. You used the incorrect word "idol" in your original post/argument. Idols cannot be made to God, because that would require the Creator's image to be crafted by those He created, and no one is privy to that information. Christmas trees are not "worshipped" either, at least not by Christians. Decoration and celebration are not the same as worship.

Ok, now you're just waxing semantics.

Idol and Icon can be used interchangeably in many cases. However, Icon is typically an image, a depiction, not a representation.

According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, definition #3 for Icon is synonymous with Idol.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/icon
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/idol

And while that is the case, idol still more clearly defines what a christmas tree is. You see, because as I already explained prior to the post you quoted, the tree itself is not the object of worship/devotion. It represents Christmas, of which the focus is Jesus. Thus the christmas tree is an idol of or for, Jesus.

You people conveniently forget, the idol is not what is being worshipped, yet you always seem to parrot the same line. "Oh we don't worship a tree!"

You've been duped.

[flashstang04]

Ok, now you're just waxing semantics.

Idol and Icon can be used interchangeably in many cases. However, Icon is typically an image, a depiction, not a representation.

According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, definition #3 for Icon is synonymous with Idol.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/icon
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/idol

And while that is the case, idol still more clearly defines what a christmas tree is. You see, because as I already explained prior to the post you quoted, the tree itself is not the object of worship/devotion. It represents Christmas, of which the focus is Jesus. Thus the christmas tree is an idol of or for, Jesus.

You people conveniently forget, the idol is not what is being worshipped, yet you always seem to parrot the same line. "Oh we don't worship a tree!"

You've been duped.


It's almost like you have a formula that states if A=B, then C must be an Idol. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. I agree, you can find points of concern with many Christian practices, but this is reaching. The main thing behind an idol is intent, or the state of the heart. An idol is to be worshiped. And that is just not going on. We don't say that yellow ribbons are an idol, or even an American flag. But like Mr. said, without worship, they are icons, or symbols. What you are saying would make the flag an object of worship as we say the pledge or sing the anthem. I think a better point for you would be to address the idolistic nature of commercialism in Christianity. That is idolistic if I have ever seen it.

[DarkWolf]

An idol is to be worshiped.

See, this is where your logic fails. No, an idol is NOT worshipped. An idol is a representation (either literal or symbolic) of something that is worshipped. In this case, Jesus is that which is worshipped.

But like Mr. said, without worship, they are icons, or symbols.

An icon is an image or depiction of that which is worshipped. ie: the pictures of Jesus with the glow around his head = icon. Statues of the crucified Jesus = icon. Statues of the virgin mary = icon. In the latter two cases, they can also qualify as idols, in that Jesus is worshipped, as is the virgin mary in some denonminations.

[flashstang04]

i·dol (dl)
n.
1.
a. An image used as an object of worship.
b. A false god.
2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
3. Something visible but without substance.




..

[Mr Majestyk]

Ok, now you're just waxing semantics.

Idol and Icon can be used interchangeably in many cases. However, Icon is typically an image, a depiction, not a representation.

According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, definition #3 for Icon is synonymous with Idol.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/icon
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/idol

And while that is the case, idol still more clearly defines what a christmas tree is. You see, because as I already explained prior to the post you quoted, the tree itself is not the object of worship/devotion. It represents Christmas, of which the focus is Jesus. Thus the christmas tree is an idol of or for, Jesus.

You people conveniently forget, the idol is not what is being worshipped, yet you always seem to parrot the same line. "Oh we don't worship a tree!"

You've been duped.

You have been duped if you think on such a simple level as to think a Christmas tree is an idol of, or for, Jesus. Stick to subjects you know about, which theology is definately not one of.

[DarkWolf]

..


Main Entry: idol
Pronunciation: \ˈī-dəl\
Function: noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French idle, from Late Latin idolum, from Greek eidōlon image, idol; akin to Greek eidos form — more at idyll
Date: 13th century
1: a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god 2 a: a likeness of something b obsolete : pretender, impostor
3: a form or appearance visible but without substance
4: an object of extreme devotion ; also : ideal 2
5: a false conception : fallacy

..

You have been duped if you think on such a simple level as to think a Christmas tree is an idol of, or for, Jesus. Stick to subjects you know about, which theology is definately not one of.

Oh lookie there! Clever.

Well, you go right ahead and keep thinking that. And after you're done patting yourself on the back, before you go high five your fellow dupees, perhaps you should do a little research and learn about christians that haven't been duped, who reject the whole christmas "thing".

Here, these should get you started:
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/12/17/religion/re13.txt
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn61/christmas_christians.htm
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/xmas/celeb.htm

What's that saying I hear christians prattle off a lot? Oh yeah, truth is not determined by how many people believe it.

[Mr Majestyk]

You're an idiot if you mistakenly think you know how and why I, along with other Christians, view the celebration of Christmas. You obviously know nothing about actual Christian views on a personal level, especially on my level, so quit trying to support your fallacious views through links. You treat Christmas however you must, but don't presume that you're learned enough speak for anyone else regarding the how and why of their treatment of the holiday.

[Brain_Mach1]

I'm anti-religion. If I believed in god, I think he'd be a lot cooler dude than most world relgions paint him out to be. I'd say most religions make him look like more of an alcoholic step father than anything else.
So for you to believe in a god, does that mean he would have to be made in an image you create?

I find it interesting that you say most religions paint him to look like an alcoholic step father. I view God as a loving father whom I disappoint. Does this mean you have not "seen" my God or you are creating your own image for what I see. :confused:

[Brain_Mach1]

The tree is an idol. It is a representation of an object/being of worship. The act of decorating the tree is a pagan rite. You can hide behind the textbook definition if it makes you feel better, but you cannot deny where the origins of the practice came from.

By your explination, anyone who takes their kid to Santa Claus is Catholic since Santa Claus is St Nicholas, a Catholic Bishop.

Well, that does not make sense since most people don't know the roots of Santa and have completely seperated Santa from St Nicholas.

[Brain_Mach1]

An icon is an image or depiction of that which is worshipped. ie: the pictures of Jesus with the glow around his head = icon. Statues of the crucified Jesus = icon. Statues of the virgin mary = icon. In the latter two cases, they can also qualify as idols, in that Jesus is worshipped, as is the virgin mary in some denonminations.
Who worships Mary?

[Brain_Mach1]

Thinking about origins, Christianity has its roots in ancient Greek so if the ancient history of the “tree” is valid regardless of the intent of the modern individual, than the language would apply also regardless of the modern definitions or intend us the individual.

Etymology of Icon: from eikenai "to resemble"

Etymology of Idol: idein "to see"

If the tree is meant for "to see” Jesus, then it is an idol. If the tree is meant “to resemble” Jesus, it is an icon.

[BHAM]

Jesus christ is lord, and one day we will all see...i would hate to have this thread pulled up on the day you stand before him...seeing you have publicly denounced him. but i pray for all to come to jesus, on their own terms.

[jluv]

Jesus christ is lord, and one day we will all see...i would hate to have this thread pulled up on the day you stand before him...seeing you have publicly denounced him. but i pray for all to come to jesus, on their own terms.


Haha! And what if judgement day is next Thursday and the dude in charge's name is Larry and he's slightly overweight but his eyes glow and he pretty much lets everyone into the party or "heaven" as long as they have lived a good life?

I'm not scared.

[Mr Majestyk]

Neither am I, I have read the Bible, and the dude in charge is not named Larry.

Typical adolescent post, jluv. It sounds like something a bunch of teenage boys might giggle at.

[BHAM]

Haha! And what if judgement day is next Thursday and the dude in charge's name is Larry and he's slightly overweight but his eyes glow and he pretty much lets everyone into the party or "heaven" as long as they have lived a good life?

I'm not scared.
(BHAM) SHAKES DUST OFF HIS FEET AND WALKS AWAY. :(

[jluv]

Neither am I, I have read the Bible, and the dude in charge is not named Larry.

Typical adolescent post, jluv. It sounds like something a bunch of teenage boys might giggle at.


Why is it an adolescent post? It's a valid question. According to the Bible that you read, the guy in charge is not named Larry. But I'm not talking about reading books. Perhaps to you my little made up scenario sounds ridiculous? THAT'S THE POINT. Do you get it now?

[PWTRTXSS]

Since when is Christmas about Jesus? I thought it was about being forced to pretend you like people you don't like and feeling obligated to spend money you don't have to buy people you don't really know things they don't want and will never use.

It could also be about lying to children and getting them to believe in mythological beings who give free presents which leads to them not appreciating the hard work it took to provide those presents. I especially love it when the kid looks up at you and asks "Why didn't Santa bring me what I wanted? I told him I wanted a PS3 and all I got was a fucking football! I hate football." Well maybe Santa had to pay the fucking mortgage and maybe he doesn't get paid time off for the holidays. Maybe Santa didn't get the raise he was counting on because his store got dinged by a secret shopper for not having a cup of coffee ready in 60 fucking seconds.

[White trash wagon]

Since when is Christmas about Jesus? I thought it was about being forced to pretend you like people you don't like and feeling obligated to spend money you don't have to buy people you don't really know things they don't want and will never use.

It could also be about lying to children and getting them to believe in mythological beings who give free presents which leads to them not appreciating the hard work it took to provide those presents. I especially love it when the kid looks up at you and asks "Why didn't Santa bring me what I wanted? I told him I wanted a PS3 and all I got was a fucking football! I hate football." Well maybe Santa had to pay the fucking mortgage and maybe he doesn't get paid time off for the holidays. Maybe Santa didn't get the raise he was counting on because his store got dinged by a secret shopper for not having a cup of coffee ready in 60 fucking seconds.

You forgot the part where you blackmail your kids all year to act good cause Santa's watching them. You know....the part where they get switches & coal if thier bad. But yeh, Christmas is a HUGE lie.

The funny part you'ld think true christians would be pissed thier holiday has been hijacked, but they love all the lies!

Scott

[Strychnine]

Since when is Christmas about Jesus? I thought it was about being forced to pretend you like people you don't like and feeling obligated to spend money you don't have to buy people you don't really know things they don't want and will never use.

It could also be about lying to children and getting them to believe in mythological beings who give free presents which leads to them not appreciating the hard work it took to provide those presents. I especially love it when the kid looks up at you and asks "Why didn't Santa bring me what I wanted? I told him I wanted a PS3 and all I got was a fucking football! I hate football." Well maybe Santa had to pay the fucking mortgage and maybe he doesn't get paid time off for the holidays. Maybe Santa didn't get the raise he was counting on because his store got dinged by a secret shopper for not having a cup of coffee ready in 60 fucking seconds.


LMAO! Bitter much? :D

[Mr Majestyk]

Why is it an adolescent post? It's a valid question. According to the Bible that you read, the guy in charge is not named Larry. But I'm not talking about reading books. Perhaps to you my little made up scenario sounds ridiculous? THAT'S THE POINT. Do you get it now?

I am talking about reading The Book. Your made up scenario isn't ridiculous so much as it's simply wrong, because you lack the knowledge of that which you speak. This might be expected of a typical juvenile, i.e. adolescent. THAT'S THE POINT. Do you get it now?

[flashstang04]

I am talking about reading The Book. Your made up scenario isn't ridiculous so much as it's simply wrong, because you lack the knowledge of that which you speak. This might be expected of a typical juvenile, i.e. adolescent. THAT'S THE POINT. Do you get it now?


Not EVEN to mention that your adolescent story has not been passed down meticulously throughout thousands of years with the utmost care..directly from the Source. Move along.

[/*Shakes feet off with BHAM]

[jluv]

I am talking about reading The Book. Your made up scenario isn't ridiculous so much as it's simply wrong, because you lack the knowledge of that which you speak. This might be expected of a typical juvenile, i.e. adolescent. THAT'S THE POINT. Do you get it now?


LOL.

It's not a lack of knowledge. You could call it lack of faith if you want. I'm sure that sounds worse to you guys than what it means to me.

The point is that my made up story is no more wrong, ridiculous, juvenile, or adolescent than your own interpretation of what's written in the Bible.

You can treat it as fact if you want. Good for you for having faith in something. But your faith doesn't make it fact. Neither one of us really know for sure what the truth is. The difference between us is that I can admit that and you'd rather put all your eggs in one basket.

[jluv]

Not EVEN to mention that your adolescent story has not been passed down meticulously throughout thousands of years with the utmost care..directly from the Source. Move along.

[/*Shakes feet off with BHAM]


And?

It's old, it must be true!

Even if you believe in the source and you think it came straight from said source, you're admitting that it's been passed down for ages, no doubt filtered, altered, and reworded hundreds of times. So being old and retold doesn't give it any more credibility in my eyes.

You guys are silly.

[flashstang04]

And?

It's old, it must be true!

Even if you believe in the source and you think it came straight from said source, you're admitting that it's been passed down for ages, no doubt filtered, altered, and reworded hundreds of times. So being old and retold doesn't give it any more credibility in my eyes.

You guys are silly.

You are showing the lack of knowledge that you have of the entire process that was undertaken in order to copy the originals throughout time...if there was ever even one error, the entire page was scrapped and re done. The only variations are synonymous translations here and there. You should look into it. This is true with many ancient manuscripts, not just biblical.. so that argument is really moot.

[jluv]

You are showing the lack of knowledge that you have of the entire process that was undertaken in order to copy the originals throughout time...if there was ever even one error, the entire page was scrapped and re done. The only variations are synonymous translations here and there. You should look into it. This is true with many ancient manuscripts, not just biblical.. so that argument is really moot.

If anything, your argument is moot. What does any of that have to do with anything?

I don't take the Bible literally. You do, because it tells you that you must. See, it kinda goes full circle. Since I don't take the Bible literally, I don't buy into the part that tells me I have to. See how that works?

I'm not saying the Bible is total bs. In fact, I'm open minded enough to believe that there's even a chance (long shot) that every word is true. But maybe not. Who knows for sure? Certainly not you. I'll take my chances.

[flashstang04]

I don't take the Bible literally. You do, because it tells you that you must.

I am very curious as to where you found this particular verse. Please tell me so that I can study it.

[jluv]

I am very curious as to where you found this particular verse. Please tell me so that I can study it.

What particular verse? I'm not quoting verses here.

Does the bible not tell you to have faith? Does it not say (in so many words) that a good little Christian should live by the book and understand its writings to be factual? If not, why are we even having this conversation?

[flashstang04]

What particular verse? I'm not quoting verses here.

Does the bible not tell you to have faith? Does it not say (in so many words) that a good little Christian should live by the book and understand its writings to be factual? If not, why are we even having this conversation?


YOU said that my bible tells me to take everything it says literal..now weather I do or not is a completely different issue. I am wondering where you are getting your info. Instead of telling me though, you are throwing the ball back in my court and avoiding an answer. In other words, you said something that you can not back up. If I am wrong (which I am a lot), feel free to correct me. But if you can't, it makes it look like you are just spouting off. You need to research a little and then we can discuss it.

[DarkWolf]

You're an idiot if you mistakenly think you know how and why I, along with other Christians, view the celebration of Christmas. You obviously know nothing about actual Christian views on a personal level, especially on my level, so quit trying to support your fallacious views through links. You treat Christmas however you must, but don't presume that you're learned enough speak for anyone else regarding the how and why of their treatment of the holiday.

Such an angry, angry person. And you claim to be christian. Are you by chance related to TexasDevilDog?

I'm sorry you can't come to terms with this, and would rather lash out at me, than open your own eyes to what you know to be true.

By your explination, anyone who takes their kid to Santa Claus is Catholic since Santa Claus is St Nicholas, a Catholic Bishop.

Well, that does not make sense since most people don't know the roots of Santa and have completely seperated Santa from St Nicholas.

St. Nicholas is whom the church propped up to "be" Santa. Santa's roots are actually much older, with probable links to Odin and Norse Mythology.

Which of course, is pagan. Like the christmas tree. Like wreathes. Like holly. Like mistletoe. Like giving gifts. Like elves. Do I really need to keep explaining this over and over?

Who worships Mary?

Um... catholics? "Hail Mary, full of grace"? Ring a bell?

[Mr Majestyk]

Such an angry, angry person. And you claim to be christian. Are you by chance related to TexasDevilDog?

I'm sorry you can't come to terms with this, and would rather lash out at me, than open your own eyes to what you know to be true.



St. Nicholas is whom the church propped up to "be" Santa. Santa's roots are actually much older, with probable links to Odin and Norse Mythology.

Which of course, is pagan. Like the christmas tree. Like wreathes. Like holly. Like mistletoe. Like giving gifts. Like elves. Do I really need to keep explaining this over and over?


Um... catholics? "Hail Mary, full of grace"? Ring a bell?

Sad to see you make a fool of yourself, but idiots do what idiots must do I suppose. Everything you seem to believe about me has thus far been wrong, and like a fool, you continue to add more incorrect, and off the wall, statements to continue down that path. Give it up, you're just not quite smart enough.

[Mr Majestyk]

LOL.

It's not a lack of knowledge. You could call it lack of faith if you want. I'm sure that sounds worse to you guys than what it means to me.

The point is that my made up story is no more wrong, ridiculous, juvenile, or adolescent than your own interpretation of what's written in the Bible.

You can treat it as fact if you want. Good for you for having faith in something. But your faith doesn't make it fact. Neither one of us really know for sure what the truth is. The difference between us is that I can admit that and you'd rather put all your eggs in one basket.

I know the truth as explained through the Bible, and at least you admit that you don't know much if anything about it, or don't have faith. If you're satisfied with your place in life, good for you. I know I am satisfied with where I am in my life, and in my faith.

[BlackSnake1996]

I don't celebrate CHRISTmas, but I do celebrate Yule. I'm down with the hip lingo though, I can say "Merry christmas" like everyone else, but I'll keep spreading the Yuletide cheer.

Tell me, do you decorate a christmas tree?
Though we don't agree...touché. :p

[talisman]

Sad to see you make a fool of yourself, but idiots do what idiots must do I suppose. Everything you seem to believe about me has thus far been wrong, and like a fool, you continue to add more incorrect, and off the wall, statements to continue down that path. Give it up, you're just not quite smart enough.



What has he posted that is factually incorrect?

[jluv]

YOU said that my bible tells me to take everything it says literal..now weather I do or not is a completely different issue. I am wondering where you are getting your info. Instead of telling me though, you are throwing the ball back in my court and avoiding an answer. In other words, you said something that you can not back up. If I am wrong (which I am a lot), feel free to correct me. But if you can't, it makes it look like you are just spouting off. You need to research a little and then we can discuss it.


I already told you that I wasn't quoting any specific verse. I wasn't then, and I'm not going to. Nice try to get me to read more of the Bible. I'll pass though. You can stay on that tangent of yours all day, but I know enough about the Bible to know that it instructs people to trust in it and follow it and that the stories written inside are meant to be taken as truth. As I've said before, I personally compare it to a bigger, less smoothly written Aesop's Fables. There are some good messages, but I've chosen not to take it so literally. So that's why when homedude said "...i would hate to have this thread pulled up on the day you stand before him...seeing you have publicly denounced him..." it made me giggle a little. He's worried about me having to stand in front of Jesus and face the consequences of "denouncing" him when he sees this thread. Ha! That does bring up an interesting question though. Will Jesus have a solid gold laptop? I bet he uses a Mac. What do you think?

Do I really think deep down that a dude named Larry with glowing eyes is gonna let us into a big party in the sky? No. Do I think that a long-haired dude named Jesus is going to come down and judge us and let certain peeps into heaven? No. Is either possible? Sure. Is anything possible? Ya, probably. Why not? Maybe nothing happens. I'm down for whatever.

Oh, and Jesus, if you read this - What's up dude? Cool sandals!

[Mr Majestyk]

What has he posted that is factually incorrect?

1. That Christians use a Chtistmas tree as an idol to Christ.

Factually incorrect. A Christmas tree to me, as a Christian, is nothing more than a holiday decoration. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Christmas as a celebration of Jesus' birth, and a fulfillment of Biblical propechy, is the manner in which I view Christmas.

2. That I am an angry, angry person with my eyes closed to what I know to be true.

Factually incorrect. Anger in a car forum...that's laughable. This is a theology subforum; someone coming in here claiming knowledge superior to that revealed through the Bible would be akin to me walking into NASA's mission control headquarters and claiming to know more about space flight than their own astronauts. If you really think anybody on a car forum is worth getting angry over, you must have an inflated sense of that person's importance LOL. I know what is true, as revealed through the Bible. If someone thinks differently, that's their perogative but doesn't change anything about what I have learned and will continue to learn.


God Bless.....

[flashstang04]

I already told you that I wasn't quoting any specific verse. I wasn't then, and I'm not going to. Nice try to get me to read more of the Bible. I'll pass though. You can stay on that tangent of yours all day, but I know enough about the Bible to know that it instructs people to trust in it and follow it and that the stories written inside are meant to be taken as truth. As I've said before, I personally compare it to a bigger, less smoothly written Aesop's Fables. There are some good messages, but I've chosen not to take it so literally. So that's why when homedude said "...i would hate to have this thread pulled up on the day you stand before him...seeing you have publicly denounced him..." it made me giggle a little. He's worried about me having to stand in front of Jesus and face the consequences of "denouncing" him when he sees this thread. Ha! That does bring up an interesting question though. Will Jesus have a solid gold laptop? I bet he uses a Mac. What do you think?

Do I really think deep down that a dude named Larry with glowing eyes is gonna let us into a big party in the sky? No. Do I think that a long-haired dude named Jesus is going to come down and judge us and let certain peeps into heaven? No. Is either possible? Sure. Is anything possible? Ya, probably. Why not? Maybe nothing happens. I'm down for whatever.

Oh, and Jesus, if you read this - What's up dude? Cool sandals!



Well you are just recycling tired nonsense. You still don't have a clue when it comes to what is and isn't literal and what most Christians think of it. And you say, nice try getting me to read the bible. Hey you can do whatever you want. Before I work on any of my cars though I have a Haynes manual. I was just asking you to back up with print what you yourself said was in there. BUT, as everyone here can see, you aren't going to do it.

[jluv]

Well you are just recycling tired nonsense. You still don't have a clue when it comes to what is and isn't literal and what most Christians think of it. And you say, nice try getting me to read the bible. Hey you can do whatever you want. Before I work on any of my cars though I have a Haynes manual. I was just asking you to back up with print what you yourself said was in there. BUT, as everyone here can see, you aren't going to do it.


You're the one dodging questions.

Does the bible not tell you to have faith? Does it not say (in so many words) that a good little Christian should live by the book and understand its writings to be factual?

[Brain_Mach1]

Um... catholics? "Hail Mary, full of grace"? Ring a bell?
Luke 1:28. You forgot the rest of the scripture: "The Lord is with you."

If you continue to Luke 1:42 you get" "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."

Nice job at quoting scripture.

Yes I baited you. I just love hearing this since you are now illistrating the point that, regardless of what is written in Catholic or any other Christian literature, your understanding is truth.

Catholic documents contain no referense to adoration of Mary. Sorry.

[Brain_Mach1]

St. Nicholas is whom the church propped up to "be" Santa. Santa's roots are actually much older, with probable links to Odin and Norse Mythology.

Which of course, is pagan. Like the Christmas tree. Like wreathes. Like holly. Like mistletoe. Like giving gifts. Like elves. Do I really need to keep explaining this over and over? You are pointing at facts without connecting them with any kind of logic, motive, and with no knowledge of Christian history.

As I said in post #12, Catholicism does not hide the fact that they placed the Christmas feast day on the day already used by pagans with the motive to supplant pagan holidays. “Do I really need to keep explaining this over and over?”

St. Nicholas is real and his day is celebrated on Dec. 6th. His name is on documents from the Council of Nicea. I am not aware of Odin or Saturn signing any documents. St. Nicholas is known for giving gifts and protection of children. Santa Claus is American and British creation. American and Britain are Protestant majority nations. Santa Claus means nothing in English language or German. It is a bastardization of Dutch Sinterklaas, St. Nicholas. Santa Claus as Americans know him is nothing like the main land European or middle Eastern version and is not as old as the St. Nicholas. The Anglo-American Santa Claus is not universal (the word also means “catholic”). No “church” propped up this image. If one did, please tell which one and when? If one did please give more facts and some logical explanation.

How would a Protestant explain a 4th century Catholic Saint? Most Protestants don't believe in the intersetion of Saints. The image has to be modified if it can’t be removed. This is what the Catholics did with the Pagan celebrations.

Here is where logic and motive combine. When seculars and Protestants change a Catholic holiday of course they are going to do as much as possible to remove Catholicism. They are not Catholic, but the opposite. They are anti-Catholics. When Catholics move their feast days and suplant the pagan holidays, they are being anti-pagan.

Is Christmas a Catholic thing?

1. It is on a different day in some Orthodox calendars but the Protestant and secular nations have it on the Catholic calendar day. Protestants don’t have liturgical calendars like Catholics and Orthodox do so they use the Catholic calendar.

2. Anglo-Americans Protestants and seculars created Santa Claus to replace St. Nicholas.

3. The name is Christmas? Most Protestants don't have a mass!

If Catholic is the Church you speak of, that created Santa Claus, why is Santa Claus a Anglo-American export and not Italian and the Catholic/Orthodox Churches have a different St. Nicholas?

[flashstang04]

You're the one dodging questions.

Does the bible not tell you to have faith? Does it not say (in so many words) that a good little Christian should live by the book and understand its writings to be factual?


Lol, ok let's go through this slowly....

Yes, the bible tells us to have faith...you are correct..
As far as factual, it doesnt say that this is real, and this is symbolic. There is no definitive verse on this.

However, that is not the point of your first topic...

[DarkWolf]

1. That Christians use a Chtistmas tree as an idol to Christ.

Factually incorrect. A Christmas tree to me, as a Christian, is nothing more than a holiday decoration. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Christmas as a celebration of Jesus' birth, and a fulfillment of Biblical propechy, is the manner in which I view Christmas.

You don't get it. It doesn't matter what it means to you. Answer me this: Is a christmas tree a symbol of christmas? Yes or no.

There's only one right answer.

2. That I am an angry, angry person with my eyes closed to what I know to be true.

Perhaps spiteful is more accurate then. Just a few quotes by you:

"You're an idiot"

"The above excuses could all be summarized by:

"I am a whiney _____" (insert bitch or bastard as appropriate)"

"Don't feel too bad, you're not the only blind boy out there today."

"And don't forget to blame someone else for your ignorance."

Luke 1:28. You forgot the rest of the scripture: "The Lord is with you."

If you continue to Luke 1:42 you get" "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."

Nice job at quoting scripture.

And that changes the fact that you're praying to Mary, how?

Yes I baited you.

You did? Huh, I must have missed it.

Catholic documents contain no referense to adoration of Mary. Sorry.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/STTOMHMY.htm
And here: http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/aquinas/apray-hm.htm

St. Thomas Aquinas doesn't seem to agree with you.

"He says that the Blessed Virgin is full of grace with respect to three things. First, with respect to soul, which has every fullness of grace. For the grace of God is given for two reasons, namely, in order to act well, and to avoid evil. And with respect to these two the Blessed Virgin had most perfect grace. For more than any other holy person save Christ alone she avoided all sin."

"For in any peril you can obtain salvation from this glorious Virgin. Hence the Canticle of Canticles 4:4: <a thousand bucklers> (that is, protection against dangers) <hang upon it.> Again, in every work of virtue you will find her ready to help. Therefore, she herself says in Ecclesiasticus 24:25: <In me is all the grace of the way, in me is all hope of life, and of virtue>."

"She is full of grace, therefore, and exceeds the angels in fullness of grace, and because of this she is fittingly called Mary which means illumined in herself, hence Isaiah 58:11: <and will fill the soul with brightness; and she will be a light for others>, meaning the whole world; and therefore she is likened to the sun and moon. Second, she excels the angels in divine familiarity. As an indication of this, the angel said: <the Lord is with thee,> as if he said: therefore I show reverence to you because you are more familiar with God than I, for the Lord is with thee; Lord, he says, both Father and the same Son, something no angel nor creature has."

"Rightly then does the angel revere the Blessed Virgin, because she is the mother of the Lord, and therefore mistress herself."

"The third is common to men and women, namely that into dust they shall return. The Blessed Virgin was free of this, because she was assumed in the body into heaven. For we believe that after death she was raised up and borne to heaven."

"Therefore she was immune to every curse, and thereby blessed amongst women, for she alone put away the curse and carried the blessing, and the door of paradise opened; therefore the name Mary becomes her, which is interpreted Star of the Sea, because just as sailors are directed to port by the star of the sea, so Christians are directed by Mary to glory."

And from the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm

It was antecedently probable that the striking words of the Angel's salutation would be adopted by the faithful as soon as personal devotion to the Mother of God manifested itself in the Church.

From the Catechism of Trent: http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tpray0.htm

To this form of thanksgiving the Church of God has wisely added prayers and an invocation addressed to the most holy Mother of God, by which we piously and humbly fly to her patronage, in order that, by her intercession, she may reconcile God to us sinners and may obtain for us those blessings which we stand in need of in this life and in the life to come. We, therefore, exiled children of Eve, who dwell in this vale of tears, should constantly beseech the Mother of mercy, the advocate of the faithful, to pray for us sinners. In this prayer we should earnestly implore her help and assistance; for that she possesses exalted merits with God, and that she is most desirous to assist us by her prayers, no one can doubt without impiety and wickedness.

It's also in the Baltimore Catechism: http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bpray-hm.htm

And the Catechism of St. Pius X: http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/ppray-hm.htm

[DarkWolf]

Here is where logic and motive combine. When seculars and Protestants change a Catholic holiday of course they are going to do as much as possible to remove Catholicism. They are not Catholic, but the opposite. They are anti-Catholics. When Catholics move their feast days and suplant the pagan holidays, they are being anti-pagan.

This really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Do you put up a christmas tree?

St. Nicholas is real and his day is celebrated on Dec. 6th. His name is on documents from the Council of Nicea. I am not aware of Odin or Saturn signing any documents. St. Nicholas is known for giving gifts and protection of children. Santa Claus is American and British creation. American and Britain are Protestant majority nations. Santa Claus means nothing in English language or German. It is a bastardization of Dutch Sinterklaas, St. Nicholas. Santa Claus as Americans know him is nothing like the main land European or middle Eastern version and is not as old as the St. Nicholas. The Anglo-American Santa Claus is not universal (the word also means “catholic”). No “church” propped up this image. If one did, please tell which one and when? If one did please give more facts and some logical explanation.

Also irrelevant. The current image of Santa was created in the mid-late 1800's to early 1900's. Christmas was illegal in the United States ~150 years ago, because the tree and giving gifts were recognized as pagan in origin.

As for Odin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

"Influence of Germanic paganism and folklore

Numerous parallels have been drawn between Santa Claus and the figure of Odin, a major god amongst the Germanic Peoples prior to their Christianization. Since many of these elements are unrelated to Christianity, there are theories regarding the pagan origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Santa Claus.[11]

Odin was sometimes recorded, at the native Germanic holiday of Yule, as leading a great hunting party through the sky.[12] Two books from Iceland, the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, describe Odin as riding an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir that could leap great distances, giving rise to comparisons to Santa Claus' reindeer.[13]

According to Phyllis Siefker, children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy [14]. This practice survived in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas as a result of the process of Christianization and can be still seen in the modern practice of the hanging of stockings at the chimney in some homes."

http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/yulethelongestnight/p/Santa_Claus.htm

So, yeah. The origins of Santa, as I said before, started long before St. Nicholas.

[Brain_Mach1]

You don't get it. It doesn't matter what it means to you.

And that changes the fact that you're praying to Mary, how?

You did? Huh, I must have missed it.

I noticed you changed your comment from worship to pray. Worship/adoration and prayer are not the same thing.

Did you read the links. They have wonderful instights into Catholic doctrine but guess what? There is no worship or adoration of Mary in any of your links. You can re-read them or do a <CTRL> F and search for adoration or worship.

It doesn't matter what it means to you. You can't prove an argument by changing the language. Read the links. The words "Pray for Us" come up several times.

I do love Thomas Aquinus and I love EWTN.


You also never said which "church" created Santa Claus. I asked this question directly. The priest at my Catholic mass today said they don't have Santa Claus in Panama. The Catholic church did not create Santa Claus.

Was it the Church of Christ? The Satanic Church? Santa, Satan get it?

[DarkWolf]

I noticed you changed your comment from worship to pray. Worship/adoration and prayer are not the same thing.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pray
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pray

The parts that are of particular interest:

"1.to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
6.to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7.to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.

To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.

2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving"

Care to try again?

<ctrl>You also never said which "church" created Santa Claus. I asked this question directly. The priest at my Catholic mass today said they don't have Santa Claus in Panama. The Catholic church did not create Santa Claus.

Was it the Church of Christ? The Satanic Church? Santa, Satan get it?

Perhaps because I never said a church created Santa. Read it again if you need to. I addressed this in my last post.
</ctrl>

[Brain_Mach1]

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/pray
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pray

The parts that are of particular interest:

"1.to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
6.to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7.to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.

To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.

2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving"


You still have not shown where we worship or adore Mary. You are stating what it would mean IF Catholics worshiped Mary.

Lets go back to the Hail Mary. You did a great job in bring ing it up.

1. The first half is straight from scripture.
2. The second half is us asking her to pray for us TO GOD.

"Pray for us sinners now ad at the hour of our death."

Interesting enough, if you look up worship in the dictionary, you will find it is an address for British magistractes. :D

Don't get arrested in England Darkwolf or you will have to worship a human!

Perhaps because I never said a church created Santa. Read it again if you need to. I addressed this in my last post.
</ctrl>
No you said, "St. Nicholas is whom the church propped up to "be" Santa. " but you still won't say which Church after 2 requests. Your links don't address this either.

Santa Claus is an Anglo-American creation. He is not part of Christmas (careful, this is a Catholic word) in many nations such as Panama. If Santa is your hold up, drop him.

You love dictionary definitions and (Wikipedia) history so look at the Etymology of Christmas. If anyone celebrates "Christmas" by your reasoning, they are Catholic. Even the Romans celebrated a Winter Solstice festival to Saturn, not Odin.

As I have said, the Catholic Church (being specific is nice) often moved feast days to suplant the pagan religions. This has nothing to do with whether Jesus was born of if a man named St. Nicholas lived. Both got moved. In the case of the later by Anglo-American Protestant and secular forces.

[Mr Majestyk]

You don't get it. It doesn't matter what it means to you. Answer me this: Is a christmas tree a symbol of christmas? Yes or no.

There's only one right answer.

No, you don't get it. What it means to me, as well as any other individual, is all that matters. You're waffling by trying to substitute "symbol" for "idol"; nice try, but better luck next time.


Perhaps spiteful is more accurate then. Just a few quotes by you:


Correct is more accurate. If you must cry spite when confronted with opposing arguments, you're behaving like a 10-year-old

[poopnut2]

do you celebrate CHRISTmas? if so, please explain why you celebrate the birth of Jesus..............

Had a discussion on this at work today, and wanted to see the consensus here.

Because it gets me presents.

99.99999% of Christians do it for the same reason.

[DarkWolf]

No, you don't get it. What it means to me, as well as any other individual, is all that matters. You're waffling by trying to substitute "symbol" for "idol"; nice try, but better luck next time.

Because an idol IS a symbol. No waffling or substitution going on here, go back and re-read the definitions if you must. But, whatever, go on believing what you wish.

Correct is more accurate. If you must cry spite when confronted with opposing arguments, you're behaving like a 10-year-old

"You're an idiot" is not an opposing argument. It's a jab. A jab made in anger, or spite, but a jab none the less.

Hey, I'm guilty of 'em too. But I don't walk with jesus, so what's your excuse?

2. The second half is us asking her to pray for us TO GOD.

Praying to her, to pray to God on our behalf, because she's closer to God than even the angels!

I know you're trying to weasle out of this, but you're the one that "baited" me, remember? Weren't expecting me to know a thing or two, were you?

No you said, "St. Nicholas is whom the church propped up to "be" Santa. " but you still won't say which Church after 2 requests. Your links don't address this either.

Because you're asking which church created Santa. I never claimed one created Santa, so I can't give you the answer you seek. I dismissed your initial question as irrelevant, because ... you know... it was irrelevant. I don't know why you keep asking.

[Mr Majestyk]

Because an idol IS a symbol. No waffling or substitution going on here, go back and re-read the definitions if you must. But, whatever, go on believing what you wish.



"You're an idiot" is not an opposing argument. It's a jab. A jab made in anger, or spite, but a jab none the less.

Hey, I'm guilty of 'em too. But I don't walk with jesus, so what's your excuse?



You left out, for your convenience, the word "if" from the phrase "you're an idiot if..." along with all that followed. Thus it's a qualification, and is indeed an opposing argument when you must accept or refute the statement that follows said if". Once again, nice try, but using three words out my (correct) statement to try to make your point, as opposed to using my entire statement, does show your perhaps juvenile lack of skills in transferring your thoughts into effective words.

[Brain_Mach1]

Praying to her, to pray to God on our behalf, because she's closer to God than even the angels!

I know you're trying to weasle out of this, but you're the one that "baited" me,

remember? Weren't expecting me to know a thing or two, were you?
So if you get it, them you know Catholics don't worship Mary. You did tried to prove it with links, which had great information, but did not contain worship or adoration.

Because you're asking which church created Santa. I never claimed one created Santa, so I can't give you the answer you seek. I dismissed your initial question as irrelevant, because ... you know... it was irrelevant. I don't know why you keep asking.
You haven't answered which church "propped up" St. Nik to be Santa (those were your words).

It is relevent if it is your claim. If it is not relevent, your post is not relevent.

http://catholiccolbert.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/colberxmascard.jpg

[DarkWolf]

You left out, for your convenience, the word "if" from the phrase "you're an idiot if..." along with all that followed. Thus it's a qualification, and is indeed an opposing argument when you must accept or refute the statement that follows said if". Once again, nice try, but using three words out my (correct) statement to try to make your point, as opposed to using my entire statement, does show your perhaps juvenile lack of skills in transferring your thoughts into effective words.

Regardless of the "if" qualifier, it's a jab. You could've easily said "You'd be wrong if", or "You'd be mistaken if", or even "I'm sorry, but you're wrong if".

You also never answered my question: Is the christmas tree, a symbol of christmas? Yes or no.

So if you get it, them you know Catholics don't worship Mary. You did tried to prove it with links, which had great information, but did not contain worship or adoration.

See, now you're just trying to deflect. Praying to someone/something is a form of worship, the definitions are quite in agreement on that. You pray to Mary, asking for her to pray on your behalf to God. That is absolutely an admission of adoration and praise. That she is so holy as to be our intermediary to God.

You haven't answered which church "propped up" St. Nik to be Santa (those were your words).

It is relevent if it is your claim. If it is not relevent, your post is not relevent.

Do you disagree that the church recognizes St. Nicholas as an origin of the Santa legend/mythos? And because you seem especially dense, yes I'm talking about the catholic church.

That being the case, Odin has been supplanted by St. Nicholas, as an origin of Santa. Thus they "propped up" St. Nicholas to "be" Santa.

It's not that hard to follow.

Your question asking which church created Santa is irrelevant, because I never said any church created Santa. Trying to somehow connect the Saturnalia festival and Odin is also irrelevant. They're completely different cultures.

[1994SilverGT]

Jesus christ is lord, and one day we will all see...i would hate to have this thread pulled up on the day you stand before him...seeing you have publicly denounced him. but i pray for all to come to jesus, on their own terms.


somehow i doubt what one says in a thread on the internet would be used against him in that situation since im under the impression god knows what im thinking....

[flashstang04]

somehow i doubt what one says in a thread on the internet would be used against him in that situation since im under the impression god knows what im thinking....





But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. Luke 12:9



Seems clear to me....

[1994SilverGT]

But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. Luke 12:9



Seems clear to me....


im sorry what i meant was that somehow i doubt anyone is gonna pull up dfwstangs to prove im a non believer.

[flashstang04]

im sorry what i meant was that somehow i doubt anyone is gonna pull up dfwstangs to prove im a non believer.


Well that makes more sense, and perhaps you are right....
Being that every thought will be called into question on that day. I'm sure in comparison what we type here will be minor compared to what goes on in our head.

[Mr Majestyk]

Regardless of the "if" qualifier, it's a jab. You could've easily said "You'd be wrong if", or "You'd be mistaken if", or even "I'm sorry, but you're wrong if".

You also never answered my question: Is the christmas tree, a symbol of christmas? Yes or no.


Could have, but this is first and foremost a car site, where words such as "idiot" are perfectly acceptable since they are used ad naseum by many of the members and thus should be expected. If it hurt your tender sensitivities, man up and deal with it as such.

On your question, do your own research since you have now decided to substitute "symbol" for "idol". And be sure to post up more of those ubiquitous links LOL.

[Brain_Mach1]

You also never answered my question: Is the christmas tree, a symbol of christmas? Yes or no.
True. The Christmas tree is an integral part of Christmas.

That is why nations which celebrate Christmas without a tree such as Central and South America are not truly Christian. Panama which claims 85% Catholic does not have Santa Claus is not as Catholic as the US or Britian?

Oops.
See, now you're just trying to deflect. Praying to someone/something is a form of worship, the definitions are quite in agreement on that. You pray to Mary, asking for her to pray on your behalf to God. That is absolutely an admission of adoration and praise. That she is so holy as to be our intermediary to God.
The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

Do you love your wife? Do you love chocolate chip cookies. The only thing you are proving is deficiencies of the English language. You have yet to post a Catholic link which includes worship or adoration of Mary. All you are doing is playing with words.

I am that dense.

Do you disagree that the church recognizes St. Nicholas as an origin of the Santa legend/mythos? And because you seem especially dense, yes I'm talking about the catholic church.

That being the case, Odin has been supplanted by St. Nicholas, as an origin of Santa. Thus they "propped up" St. Nicholas to "be" Santa.

It's not that hard to follow.

Your question asking which church created Santa is irrelevant, because I never said any church created Santa. Trying to somehow connect the Saturnalia festival and Odin is also irrelevant. They're completely different cultures.

Now we are getting some where.

So if Santa is "proped up" by the Catholic Church, then the US and Britain (the Countries which created Santa to counter Odin) are heavily influenced by Catholisism compared to Germany or Italy.

Nations such as Panama are not influenced by Catholisism since they don't have Santa!

I have said many times that the Catholic Church has moved feast days to suplant pagan traditions, but you arguments for the tree and Santa are weak. These things are part of traditions in specific countries but are not part of the Catholic Church. The Church I attended Christmas mass in had neither but it had a Nativity Seen.

You love dictionary definitions but you have not addressed the root of the word Cristmas.

[DarkWolf]

Could have, but this is first and foremost a car site, where words such as "idiot" are perfectly acceptable since they are used ad naseum by many of the members and thus should be expected. If it hurt your tender sensitivities, man up and deal with it as such.

Yeah, don't flatter yourself. Yes, this is a car forum, and as such it is expected. However, suggesting it as a valid argument or counter argument is the point I was contesting.

On your question, do your own research since you have now decided to substitute "symbol" for "idol". And be sure to post up more of those ubiquitous links LOL.

I'm doing no such thing.

Here's one of those links for ya! http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/idol

You'll notice, it's a link I've already posted.

You'll also notice that the very first definition of Idol goes as such:

"a representation or symbol of an object of worship"

I'm not substituting symbol for idol. Symbol and idol are one and the same.

So I'll ask you, yet again, is the christmas tree a symbol of christmas? Yes, or no.

True. The Christmas tree is an integral part of Christmas.

That's not exactly what I asked, but I suppose it will do for now. Now, is christmas the celebration of Jesus' birth? Yes, or no.

That is why nations which celebrate Christmas without a tree such as Central and South America are not truly Christian. Panama which claims 85% Catholic does not have Santa Claus is not as Catholic as the US or Britian?

You lost me here. I think you're trying to come to some snarky point, but you failed miserably.

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

Do you love your wife? Do you love chocolate chip cookies. The only thing you are proving is deficiencies of the English language. You have yet to post a Catholic link which includes worship or adoration of Mary. All you are doing is playing with words.

I am that dense.

I'm not seeing how this refutes anything I've posted. In fact, it's pretty much in complete agreement with everything I've been saying.

So... thanks. I think.

Oh, and I'm not married, and I do like cookies, but definitely can live without them.

Now we are getting some where.

Apparently we're not...

So if Santa is "proped up" by the Catholic Church, then the US and Britain (the Countries which created Santa to counter Odin) are heavily influenced by Catholisism compared to Germany or Italy.

Wow, nice spin. St. Nicholas, not Santa. You keep trying to bring this around to who created Santa. It doesn't matter. It's IRRELEVANT.

Which is why the rest of your post is non-sense. You seem to be basing your entire argument on a non-existent issue.

Nations such as Panama are not influenced by Catholisism since they don't have Santa!

I have said many times that the Catholic Church has moved feast days to suplant pagan traditions, but you arguments for the tree and Santa are weak. These things are part of traditions in specific countries but are not part of the Catholic Church. The Church I attended Christmas mass in had neither but it had a Nativity Seen.

You love dictionary definitions but you have not addressed the root of the word Cristmas.

And I need to address it... why? It's Christ Mass. What's you're point?

[Brain_Mach1]

I love how you point Mr Majestyk to etymology. You feel that the adoration to God and the reverence to Mary are the same when Catholic doctrine states it is different. You use the word worship yet worship is a word the English use to honour people in government positions as well as God. So if a Catholic were to "worship" Mary the etymology would not place her status on that of God or a British government official.

My point about love is to show the deficiency of English. The Greeks had different words such as filial and agape. The only thing you are doing with the Mary thing is trying to get me to use a word in context with Mary which applies to humans and God.

You brought it up and etymology of language and Catholic links you posted don't support it.

To the tree and Santa, they are Propped up by the Catholic Church (your words) but can be separated from Christmas. This is evident by the Catholic majority nations which don't have them. They are local traditions and not Traditions (note the capital) of the Church. Does Christmas exist without these things. The answer is a definate YES. You have to look outside the US and England.

Christmas exists independent of trees and Santa but not independent of Jesus.

Is Christmas the celebration of Jesus' birth. YES! That is why the baby Jesus is placed in the Nativity seen in my Church on December 25th. No one ever said Jesus was born on December 25th. I have stated at least 3 times that the Catholic Church moved feast days to supplant pagan holidays. In fact, some Eastern Churches celebrate Christmas on other days.

Do nations which did not have Odin celebrate Christmas. Yes. Look to the south of the US.

I found an interesting article which might make you understand local traditions versus Catholic doctrine. It is about the feast of the Holy Innocents but makes reference to holly, Christmas trees, etc.

http://www.catholicexchange.com/en/node/64127

[DarkWolf]

Why are you focusing on who created Santa? How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Further, I never claimed the adoration of God and the reverence of Mary were on the same level. You pray to Mary. Prayer is an act reserved for beings worthy of praise, adoration or worship.

You also keep bringing up Panama. Why? We're not in Panama.

[jluv]

However, that is not the point of your first topic...

WTF? I copied and pasted my words from the post on page 1 because it took you this long to address it.

My point is made. If I don't put faith into the part of the Bible that tells me to have faith, then why would I have faith in any of it? Why would I be worried about "denouncing" your particular God when nothing I believe in tells me that I am doing anything wrong? Do you think I care what your religion tells you about my actions? Don't you see? With all the different religions out there, even YOU and your Christianity go against some of them. To those people, YOU are the one going to Hell (or wherever). At least I'm keeping my options open. I'll make my decision if and when the conclusive evidence is right in front of me. And if I had to guess or have blind faith, then I'll follow my hunch that my God (if there is one) will be laid back and cool and respect me for the decisions I've made.

[Mr Majestyk]

I'm doing no such thing.

Here's one of those links for ya! http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/idol

You'll notice, it's a link I've already posted.

You'll also notice that the very first definition of Idol goes as such:

"a representation or symbol of an object of worship"

I'm not substituting symbol for idol. Symbol and idol are one and the same.

So I'll ask you, yet again, is the christmas tree a symbol of christmas? Yes, or no.



In Biblical terms, idol and symbol are not the same thing. Since you have shown no knowledge of the Bible yet on your own part, here's an explanation for you in simple terms. An idol would be an mirror image of the object of worship. Since no man has seen God, there can be no idol worshipped for Him. Understand yet?

[DarkWolf]

In Biblical terms, idol and symbol are not the same thing. Since you have shown no knowledge of the Bible yet on your own part, here's an explanation for you in simple terms. An idol would be an mirror image of the object of worship.

Yes, yes they are the same. An idol is not always a mirror image. It can be. It doesn't have to be. Asherah Poles were certainly not mirror images of the goddess Ashtoreth, yet they're idols for her none the less.

An idol is a SYMBOL or REPRESENTATION of an object or being of worship.

Since no man has seen God, there can be no idol worshipped for Him.

Ahh, but we were created in his image, according to the bible.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Understand yet?

Oh, I do... do you?

[flashstang04]

WTF? I copied and pasted my words from the post on page 1 because it took you this long to address it.

My point is made. If I don't put faith into the part of the Bible that tells me to have faith, then why would I have faith in any of it? Why would I be worried about "denouncing" your particular God when nothing I believe in tells me that I am doing anything wrong? Do you think I care what your religion tells you about my actions? Don't you see? With all the different religions out there, even YOU and your Christianity go against some of them. To those people, YOU are the one going to Hell (or wherever). At least I'm keeping my options open. I'll make my decision if and when the conclusive evidence is right in front of me. And if I had to guess or have blind faith, then I'll follow my hunch that my God (if there is one) will be laid back and cool and respect me for the decisions I've made.



:rolleyes: ok...we'll leave it at that then....

[Mr Majestyk]

Yes, yes they are the same. An idol is not always a mirror image. It can be. It doesn't have to be. Asherah Poles were certainly not mirror images of the goddess Ashtoreth, yet they're idols for her none the less.

An idol is a SYMBOL or REPRESENTATION of an object or being of worship.



Ahh, but we were created in his image, according to the bible.



Oh, I do (understand)... do you?


No, you still don't understand, just like you obviously have no understanding of the Bible. Quoting the Bible by copying a passage from it does not mean you understand it, as you have shown once again.

The image of God referred to in Genesis, in which man was created, is referring to man's spiritual being, not his physical being. Your shallow comprehension shows clearly by your stubborn misguided arguments. God has no physical form, except through Jesus Christ, sent to facilitate man's further understanding of God's love in terms readily apparent to all. The image of God, i.e. His Spirit, was placed in man upon his creation. As God's Spirit has no physical form, no idol can thus be made to Him. Got it yet?

[Brain_Mach1]

Why are you focusing on who created Santa? How many times
do I have to repeat myself?
Repeat yourself so we can understand your point.

"The Church" does not rely on trees or Santa for Christmas. You are linking them because America and Britain have linked them. If a Church had linked them, it would be universal to the Church which did so.

Santa and trees are independent of Christmas. If they were linked PANAMA would have them in there culture. That is the relevance of Panama.

Else, your argument could be collaped to what you do in your own house.

Further, I never claimed the adoration of God and the reverence of Mary were on the same level. You pray to Mary. Prayer is an act reserved for beings worthy of praise, adoration or worship.
But you recpognive that the word worship applies to giving honour to humans or adoration to God.

Your links only state that Catholics ask Mary to pray for us. "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

[flashstang04]

Repeat yourself so we can understand your point.

"The Church" does not rely on trees or Santa for Christmas. You are linking them because America and Britain have linked them. If a Church had linked them, it would be universal to the Church which did so.

Santa and trees are independent of Christmas. If they were linked PANAMA would have them in there culture. That is the relevance of Panama.

Else, your argument could be collaped to what you do in your own house.


But you recpognive that the word worship applies to giving honour to humans or adoration to God.

Your links only state that Catholics ask Mary to pray for us. "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."



Catholics also pray to saints to pray on their behalf.....regardless on your feelings on this, it is nowhere near worship.

[DarkWolf]

No, you still don't understand, just like you obviously have no understanding of the Bible. Quoting the Bible by copying a passage from it does not mean you understand it, as you have shown once again.

The image of God referred to in Genesis, in which man was created, is referring to man's spiritual being, not his physical being. Your shallow comprehension shows clearly by your stubborn misguided arguments. God has no physical form, except through Jesus Christ, sent to facilitate man's further understanding of God's love in terms readily apparent to all. The image of God, i.e. His Spirit, was placed in man upon his creation. As God's Spirit has no physical form, no idol can thus be made to Him. Got it yet?

Convenient.

Genesis 3, however not explicitly saying God was physically in Eden, strongly suggests such by saying that Adam and Eve hid themselves from God's presence as he walked through the garden. That he did not know where they were until they came out of hiding also suggests that he was physically there and not some omnipresent ethereal form.

Regardless, the point is that an idol does not have to be a mirror image. In most cases they're not.

Repeat yourself so we can understand your point.

By repeat myself, I was refering to constantly having to remind you that focusing on who created Santa is irrelevant.

You're single mindedly sticking to that topic. It doesn't matter who created Santa. Santa is based off old myths and legends. The church supplanted Odin with St. Nicholas. Late 19th century poets, artists, and the early 20th century Coca-Cola company popularized the image of Santa.

Santa and trees are independent of Christmas. If they were linked PANAMA would have them in there culture. That is the relevance of Panama.

WE ARE NOT IN PANAMA. What they do in Panama to celebrate and/or represent christmas is irrelevant. In America the tree is a prominent symbol of christmas, and while your church might not utilize it, it's WIDELY recognized by religious and secular bodies around the country as such.

But you recpognive that the word worship applies to giving honour to humans or adoration to God.

Your links only state that Catholics ask Mary to pray for us. "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death."

You can dress it up all you want, the fact remains that prayer is an act reserved for someone/thing worthy of worship.

[Murph Tang]

Dark Wolf - Slayer of Red Herrings!

[Mr Majestyk]

Convenient.

Genesis 3, however not explicitly saying God was physically in Eden, strongly suggests such by saying that Adam and Eve hid themselves from God's presence as he walked through the garden. That he did not know where they were until they came out of hiding also suggests that he was physically there and not some omnipresent ethereal form.

Convenient to you, truth to me

How do you conclude He did not know where they were? He was indeed physically there and would have no problem in knowing where they were, given that both they and the trees they concealed themselves amongst were of His own creation. They hid themselves out of shame, but that does not in any way mean they were able to hide from God. No one can, or should feel any need to try.

[flashstang04]

Convenient to you, truth to me

How do you conclude He did not know where they were? He was indeed physically there and would have no problem in knowing where they were, given that both they and the trees they concealed themselves amongst were of His own creation. They hid themselves out of shame, but that does not in any way mean they were able to hide from God. No one can, or should feel any need to try.


It is much like when Cain killed Abel. God asked him where his brother was....giving him an opportunity for honesty and atonement, even though God KNEW what had happened, because Abel had already been killed. No mystery there.

[DarkWolf]

Convenient to you, truth to me

How do you conclude He did not know where they were? He was indeed physically there and would have no problem in knowing where they were, given that both they and the trees they concealed themselves amongst were of His own creation. They hid themselves out of shame, but that does not in any way mean they were able to hide from God. No one can, or should feel any need to try.

Since no man has seen God, there can be no idol worshipped for Him. Understand yet?

How's that foot taste?

[Mr Majestyk]

So He was physically there. That does not mean by any stretch that Adam or Eve looked upon Him in the Garden. If you knew more about the Old testament, you'd know that God appeared personally to other selected individuals as well(you obviously have not even read about Moses and the Exodus) without them seeing His actual form.

Your ignorance regarding Biblical events as shown in this forum continues to come through loud and clear. Keep doing internet searches to look at little snippets of the Bible to try and support your incorrect conclusions, and those of us who have actually read and at least somewhat comprehend the Book will be easily able to refute your myopic "insights" LOL.

How does my foot taste to you? Tell us please.

[DarkWolf]

So He was physically there. That does not mean by any stretch that Adam or Eve looked upon Him in the Garden. If you knew more about the Old testament, you'd know that God appeared personally to other selected individuals as well(you obviously have not even read about Moses and the Exodus) without them seeing His actual form.

Your ignorance regarding Biblical events as shown in this forum continues to come through loud and clear. Keep doing internet searches to look at little snippets of the Bible to try and support your incorrect conclusions, and those of us who have actually read and at least somewhat comprehend the Book will be easily able to refute your myopic "insights" LOL.

How does my foot taste to you? Tell us please.

Ok, whatever. Speaking through flaming shrubbery is hardly what I would call a physical appearance, but I'll grant that perhaps he didn't appear to them in his true form.

None of it belies the fact that idols do not have to be mirror images. This little tangent that you've decided to go down based on a snarky quip I made has been fun, but it has all been irrelevant to the actual point of discussion.

And... you must be new here. I was invited to this forum when it was still private and hidden from the rest of the board. And certainly long before you even joined. Your little "my bible knowledge wank is bigger than yours" hissy fits you keep throwing aren't impressing anyone.

[Mr Majestyk]

Show us not your Bible knowledge, which incidentally has yet to be revealed, but rather your Bible understanding. I could care less how long you have or have not been here or who invited or did not invite you; you're showing ignorance (as well as child-like stubborness). That card of "I've been here longer than you" LOL doesn't mean anything regarding intelligent discussion of the topic at hand, and shows rather a pathetic grasping at whatever you can to try to lend credence to your misguided posts.

No idols are made to God. Accept it, or don't. That's why we have this little gift called free will....free will to learn or, in your case, free will to wallow in stubborn ignorance.

[Brain_Mach1]

You're single mindedly sticking to that topic. It doesn't matter who created Santa. Santa is based off old myths and legends. The church supplanted Odin with St. Nicholas. Late 19th century poets, artists, and the early 20th century Coca-Cola company popularized the image of Santa.



WE ARE NOT IN PANAMA. What they do in Panama to celebrate and/or represent christmas is irrelevant. In America the tree is a prominent symbol of christmas, and while your church might not utilize it, it's WIDELY recognized by religious and secular bodies around the country as such.
So Santa is a symbol of this country AMERICA and not of Christianity since it is not universal to nations with Christians.

This kinda makes what we do in America appears as a secular thing and not a Christian thing since it is not universal. Your points are not pointing to "the Church" but to a secular society.

[Brain_Mach1]

Catholics also pray to saints to pray on their behalf.....regardless on your feelings on this, it is nowhere near worship.
Now this is what I am talking about.

You don't have to believe what Catholics believe, but make sure you understand what they believe if you are going to comment on it.

This applies to any kind of discussion.

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said there are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church but there are many who hate what THEY think it teaches.

[poopnut2]

So Santa is a symbol of this country AMERICA and not of Christianity since it is not universal to nations with Christians.

This kinda makes what we do in America appears as a secular thing and not a Christian thing since it is not universal. Your points are not pointing to "the Church" but to a secular society.


Most christian nations have their version of Santa Claus.

[flashstang04]

Now this is what I am talking about.

You don't have to believe what Catholics believe, but make sure you understand what they believe if you are going to comment on it.

This applies to any kind of discussion.

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said there are not 100 people who hate the Catholic Church but there are many who hate what THEY think it teaches.


I was agreeing with you.

[Brain_Mach1]

I was agreeing with you.
I ment this to be a compliment to you. :)

Sorry if you though I was using you as a bad example.

[Brain_Mach1]

Most christian nations have their version of Santa Claus.
Give examples not unsupported generalities.

This was not DarkWolf's point. In fact, he wants it to be specific to the traditions of the USA (hence Panama being irrelevant). He pointd to the Catholic Church, Santa Claus, and Odin.

The only thing I can get is the Catholic church created an image of St. Nicholas (a real man) whom we call Santa Claus (from American 19th Century literature) in the image of the pagan god Odin (Nordic god). This is an American thing (that darned all powerful Catholic Church of America) since it is not present in other nations of Christian people.

[DarkWolf]

I could care less how long you have or have not been here or who invited or did not invite you; you're showing ignorance (as well as child-like stubborness). That card of "I've been here longer than you" LOL doesn't mean anything regarding intelligent discussion of the topic at hand, and shows rather a pathetic grasping at whatever you can to try to lend credence to your misguided posts.

Why am I not surprised that my point was completely lost on you?

I'll spell it out for you: I've seen it all. All your bluster is lost on me. I'm neither impressed, nor intimidated. Your religious dick wagging is a perfect example of the type of "christian" that turns so many people off of what is otherwise a decent faith. I explained when I was invited, and the why was because I actually know a thing or two, but in your arrogance you assume I'm pulling some seniority card. You must be new, otherwise you would have known that.

No idols are made to God. Accept it, or don't. That's why we have this little gift called free will....free will to learn or, in your case, free will to wallow in stubborn ignorance.

Ignorance is bliss.

[poopnut2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_claus

There's all you need. The belief in Santa Claus was brought to America.

[DarkWolf]

So Santa is a symbol of this country AMERICA and not of Christianity since it is not universal to nations with Christians.

Most of the Americas, and most if not all of the EU, parts of Asia, Australia, and Africa (and probably more, but I'm not bored enough to dig into it). It's not "just an American thing". Though some cultures may not predominantly display images of Santa or trees, they are recognized almost world-wide as symbols of christmas. Almost all cultures have a tradition of gift giving, which some attribute to the Magi, others (most) attribute to St. Nicholas, all of which can be traced back to Odin.

This kinda makes what we do in America appears as a secular thing and not a Christian thing since it is not universal. Your points are not pointing to "the Church" but to a secular society.

I've never claimed it was a christian thing. It's like you were trying to make some profound point, but somewhere along the way you fell into a vat of failure.

[DarkWolf]

This was not DarkWolf's point. In fact, he wants it to be specific to the traditions of the USA (hence Panama being irrelevant). He pointd to the Catholic Church, Santa Claus, and Odin.

Actually, it was very much my point. And I will with all humility admit to being lazy and just accepting your word about how christmas is celebrated in Panama. My mistake, obviously. It won't happen again, I assure you.

http://www.christmascarnivals.com/aroundtheworld/panama.html

"A Christmas tree is the center of attraction in most houses. It is decorated with the traditional lights, angel treetop, icicles, and other Christmas ornaments. Christmas music includes songs called "gaitas" or "villancicos". Lots of singing, eating, drinking and fun surrounds the Christmas in Panama."

[Mr Majestyk]

Why am I not surprised that my point was completely lost on you?

I'll spell it out for you: I've seen it all. All your bluster is lost on me. I'm neither impressed, nor intimidated. Your religious dick wagging is a perfect example of the type of "christian" that turns so many people off of what is otherwise a decent faith. I explained when I was invited, and the why was because I actually know a thing or two, but in your arrogance you assume I'm pulling some seniority card. You must be new, otherwise you would have known that.

When you get to where you have a point, and can show that you actually know a thing or two be sure to let us know. All you are thus far is a whiner, a somewhat slow one at that



Ignorance is bliss.

Maybe to you, but not to all of us here.

[poopnut2]

When you get to where you have a point, and can show that you actually know a thing or two be sure to let us know. All you are thus far is a whiner, a somewhat slow one at that




Maybe to you, but not to all of us here.

The point is, most people, even christians really celebrate christmas for the gift giving/receiving. Seriously, ask most kids what happens on christmas. They won't say "Well, we celebrate the birth of Jesus."

[Mr Majestyk]

The point is, most people, even christians really celebrate christmas for the gift giving/receiving. Seriously, ask most kids what happens on christmas. They won't say "Well, we celebrate the birth of Jesus."

Thus my original statement that a Christmas tree is not a symbol of or for Jesus.

[flashstang04]

I ment this to be a compliment to you. :)

Sorry if you though I was using you as a bad example.


Well I thought so, just didn't want to be misunderstood :D

[flashstang04]

The point is, most people, even christians really celebrate christmas for the gift giving/receiving. Seriously, ask most kids what happens on christmas. They won't say "Well, we celebrate the birth of Jesus."


That is a generalized statement, and while I would be first in line to agree with the commercialization of Christmas. largely in part to Christians who go with the flow of society to "get a deal", I would contend that there are MANY....MANY children that know that Christmas is about Jesus and not just the gifts. The children that do not, are being neglected by the parents, and I would find it hard to believe that they are celebrating for the correct reasons as well. I think saying that "most kids would say this" is presumptuous and attributed to small scale experience.

[Brain_Mach1]

The point is, most people, even christians really celebrate christmas for the gift giving/receiving. Seriously, ask most kids what happens on christmas. They won't say "Well, we celebrate the birth of Jesus."

And in many cultures such as Latin America, the gift giving is on the Feast of Epiphany (today). These are cultures that have not been influence as heavily by US secular marketing.

As country get more and more Americanized (such as propogation of trees in the Panama canal zone, Darkhorse is now looking beyond his house), they do buy into the Amirican marketing. Ahhh, American marketing. The true religion of the world. It is so powerful, it gets confused with the Christian religion.

[Brain_Mach1]

This whole discussion with Darkhorse points to the very point of Mark 7:8

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

Christians supplanted the pagan holidays with Christian holidays. The tide has definitely swung and the secular traditions as now overpowering the commands of God.

Santa Claus is not a name or word in the English language or any other language yet some people can't separate it from Christmas.

Cultures which have not been as polluted by American secular culture exchange gifts on the feast of Epiphany. The Bible does not say that the Magi were Jewish so they are the first Gentiles to experience Jesus (assuming the shepherds were Jews). This is also the time in the Bible when gifts were given.

Darkhorse, since you love word etymology, lookup carnival.

[DarkWolf]

And in many cultures such as Latin America, the gift giving is on the Feast of Epiphany (today). These are cultures that have not been influence as heavily by US secular marketing.

As country get more and more Americanized (such as propogation of trees in the Panama canal zone, Darkhorse is now looking beyond his house), they do buy into the Amirican marketing. Ahhh, American marketing. The true religion of the world. It is so powerful, it gets confused with the Christian religion.

Actually, the uh... trees, yeah they were brought to Panama by the europeans. In the mid to late 1800's. Kinda like they were brought here around the same time. So much for that evil American marketing, eh?

And I find it cute that you're resorting to altering my name. Instead of just admitting you're wrong, let's backpedal on the whole Panama thing, and alter my name. Diversion will get you nowhere.

When you get to where you have a point, and can show that you actually know a thing or two be sure to let us know. All you are thus far is a whiner, a somewhat slow one at that

When you can act like an adult, and cease with the base insults, perhaps we can have a spirited debate. As long as you keep acting like a child, I shall continue to treat you as one.

[DarkWolf]

This whole discussion with Darkhorse points to the very point of Mark 7:8

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

Christians supplanted the pagan holidays with Christian holidays. The tide has definitely swung and the secular traditions as now overpowering the commands of God.

Finally! Someone claiming to be christian admits it!

Did it really have to take 3 freaking pages for you guys to grasp the concept that decorating the christmas tree is a pagan ritual, and forbidden by God? (At least, according to the bible)

[Mr Majestyk]

When you can act like an adult, and cease with the base insults, perhaps we can have a spirited debate. As long as you keep acting like a child, I shall continue to treat you as one.

LOL at the one who has yet to show any real knowledge of the subject at hand foolishly trying to deflect his lack of maturity onto another, who incidentally has bested him in this "debate" you long for. Grow up little boy, and realize if you can that how you treat me is of no consequence to me, or anyone else in this thread for that matter. Your opinion of your importance is greatly exaggerated; were you perhaps a spoiled only child and never got out of the "I, me, mine" mentality?

Persistently you show your inability in the vocabulary department by now insisting that the Christmas tree is an idol to God. You were wrong the first time you posted about it being an idol to Jesus, and you're still wrong. A decorated Christmas tree is nothing more than a holiday tradition....holiday traditions are not idols to God. Keep posting it, and I'll gladly (and easily) keep refuting it.

[DarkWolf]

LOL at the one who has yet to show any real knowledge of the subject at hand foolishly trying to deflect his lack of maturity onto another, who incidentally has bested him in this "debate" you long for.

Hmmm, is that why Brian_Mach1 finally admits:

"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

Christians supplanted the pagan holidays with Christian holidays. The tide has definitely swung and the secular traditions as now overpowering the commands of God."

Sure seems like the only one showing a blatant lack of knowledge is the one holding onto a silly pagan tradition, and trying to convince everyone it's cool with God now, because everyone else is doing it.

Persistently you show your inability in the vocabulary department by now insisting that the Christmas tree is an idol to God. You were wrong the first time you posted about it being an idol to Jesus, and you're still wrong. A decorated Christmas tree is nothing more than a holiday tradition....holiday traditions are not idols to God. Keep posting it, and I'll gladly (and easily) keep refuting it.

You can keep refuting it all you want, it doesn't make it any less a pagan tradition. And according to the bible, doesn't make it any less forbidden by God.

Based on your comment here, I take it you don't consider Jesus to be God in the flesh?

[Mr Majestyk]

Christmas tree has nothing to do with honoring Jesus. Christmas tree has nothing to do with honoring Jesus. Christmas tree has nothing to do with honoring Jesus.....

Repeat this over and over until it breaks through your mental constipation.

[Brain_Mach1]

Finally! Someone claiming to be christian admits it!

Did it really have to take 3 freaking pages for you guys to grasp the concept that decorating the christmas tree is a pagan ritual, and forbidden by God? (At least, according to the bible)

I have stated it 4 times now.

Pay attention to this. Sorry for altering your name. My mistake, it is Darkwolf.

oh, slam.... :rolleyes: