Psychology behind gun control- --- pampered baby boomers

[Strychnine]

Put this here to hear some differing opinions. I already know how the crowd in "The Armory" will respond.




Push for gun control stems from boomers' urge to avoid personal responsibility

Daily Sentinel [Grand Junction, CO], by Rick Wagner
Thursday, December 13, 2007

If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” — the Dalai Lama, May 15, 2001.

Thank God Jean Assam, directly or indirectly, took this advice when she stopped the malevolent attack at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs. The former police officer and volunteer security guard who made the suggestion to beef up security at the church without question saved the lives of perhaps dozens of people.

What a terrific conundrum for the anti-gun left. Normally, a gun-waving psychopath is a poster child for their counterintuitive argument that firearms cause crime. This is related to the entire liberal philosophy that individuals are in some way not responsible for their actions but must be goaded into bad behavior by either society or some evil talisman that creates within them the desire to do harm. What actually disturbs them is the symbolic nature of the firearm and its association with the individualism of the West.

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity,” wrote Sigmund Freud in his “General Introduction to Psychoanalysis.” Fear of firearms is, in most cases, not related to a fear of crime but likely is associated with disagreement over the idea of singular liberties attached to citizens, which conflicts with the centralizing nature of government.

The simplicity of rule by fiat is always hampered by the stubborn speedbump of individual rights. The right to own a firearm and, by implication, the ability to protect one’s environment without the constant need of organizational interference implies the ability to function at a basic and important level without total surrender of one’s individual rights to the social contract.

This unique aspect of American culture was given birth by British confiscation of colonists’ property. Its symbolic period was the romanticized Wild West, where it was said that “God did not make men equal, Colonel Colt did.”

Firearms by themselves may not have made men free or keep them so in today’s world. But their ownership demonstrates the citizens’ alliance with, not dominance by, their government.

As is often the case, this unique aspect of American culture is most recognized by those off our shores.

British author George Orwell recognized this symbolic and important feature by noting, “That rifle on the wall of the labourer’s cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

This bit of obvious Americana however, seems to be more difficult to grasp by some of our own politicians: “If I could have banned them all — (and said) ‘Mr. and Mrs. America turn in your guns’ — I would have!” declared U.S. Sen. Diane Feinstein, D-Calif., on the TV program “60 Minutes” on Feb. 5, 1995.

But this fear of firearms and desire to eliminate them is relatively new, even on the left:

“The right of citizens to bear arms is just one more guarantee against arbitrary government, and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible,” said Democrat Hubert Humphrey, vice president and presidential candidate in 1968.

Humphrey’s remarks were significant because it was during this period that the swelling demographic of the baby-boomer generation and its coddled attitudes fostered by grateful parents, survivors of the Depression and World War II, began to make itself apparent. As is often the case with heirs to self-made fortunes, parents desire their children to have an easier time than themselves, often not recognizing that it was just such difficulties that properly molded them.

The baby boomer desire to not be held accountable or take responsibility for actions has led to a never-ending stream of theories that seek to distance people from results. It is from this witches brew of self-indulgence and externalization of wrongdoing that modern gun control is born.

Rick Wagner offers more thoughts on politics at his blog, The War on Wrong, which can be reached through the blogs entry at GJSentinel.com.

[Zarathustra]

Disarm society.




(kidding)

[mikeb]

I think it is as simple as some people believe that if you collect up all of the guns, the issue will go away. These people are of course uninformed, and refuse to believe any differently despite evidence to the contrary. I do believe that there is some element of "who needs a gun" among the current population because people in many cases were not raised up around them, and in fact their own parents may not have even owned a gun. Then there are the people that have yet to be a crime victim, the people that do not believe that there are truly bad and dangerous people in the world, and the people that have total trust in the police's ability to protect them.

In short, there are a lot of uninformed "sheep" pursuing an idea that is not attainable or workable, and will actually cause crime to rise instead of fall. IMO these same people seem to oppose the death penalty as well.

[Mustangman_2000]

Since you're looking for opinions....

I'm a gun owner and I value the 2nd Amendment. However, I do favor Gun Control regarding assault style weapons w/high capacity magazines utilizing armor piercing and teflon-coated bullets.

And since we're on the issue....Anyone notice how gun violence around the country has permeated the news lately? I would like to open a dialog about that particular issue.

[ALLAN]

Since you're looking for opinions....

I'm a gun owner and I value the 2nd Amendment. However, I do favor Gun Control regarding assault style weapons w/high capacity magazines utilizing armor piercing and teflon-coated bullets.

And since we're on the issue....Anyone notice how gun violence around the country has permeated the news lately? I would like to open a dialog about that particular issue.
Armor piercing?
teflon bullets?
Are you scared of the barrel shroud the thing that goes up?
You watch to many movies.

[grove rat]

You watch to many movies.

yup

[TexasDevilDog]

And since we're on the issue....Anyone notice how gun violence around the country has permeated the news lately? I would like to open a dialog about that particular issue.

I would rather have a discourse about the Hollywood hypocrites that want guns out of our society but make movies using guns in overt and seemingly glorifying acts of criminality.

[Mustangman_2000]

Armor piercing?
teflon bullets?

I'll grab my pop corn and kick back and let you tell me there isn't armor-piercing ammunition available for rifles or pistols. And that legislation to prohibit this type of ammunition doesn't exist. i.e. Gun Control Act, Law Enforcement Officers' Protection Act (PL 99-408), and Violent Crime Control Act. This should be entertaining.

Are you scared of the barrel shroud the thing that goes up?
You watch to many movies.

That question makes no sense whatsoever. Either that or you're just too illiterate to use adequate enough sentence structure to make a cogent statement. Why would a barrel shroud be something to be afraid of? :confused:

[ALLAN]

I'll grab my pop corn and kick back and let you tell me there isn't armor-piercing ammunition available for rifles or pistols. And that legislation to prohibit this type of ammunition doesn't exist. i.e. Gun Control Act, Law Enforcement Officers' Protection Act (PL 99-408), and Violent Crime Control Act. This should be entertaining.



That question makes no sense whatsoever. Either that or you're just too illiterate to use adequate enough sentence structure to make a cogent statement. Why would a barrel shroud be something to be afraid of? :confused:
The barrel shroud is a joke. It what the dumb cunt from kali wanted to ban and she thought a barrel shroud was a folding stock.

Almost any center fire rifle ammo(.270, 30-06, 22-250, etc) will penetrate a vest(armor). Unless there are 5.56 that will defeat chabam on an Abrams.
Teflon coated rounds were for more reliable loading out of mags and for barrel wear. It doesn't help go though a vest
Who makes this ammo that you speak of.
Those Acts are just feel good info for the congress critters.
You need to understang that they will come after you 30-30 next.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9rGpykAX1fo&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9rGpykAX1fo&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[GT Dan]

I'll grab my pop corn and kick back and let you tell me there isn't armor-piercing ammunition available for rifles or pistols. And that legislation to prohibit this type of ammunition doesn't exist. i.e. Gun Control Act, Law Enforcement Officers' Protection Act (PL 99-408), and Violent Crime Control Act. This should be entertaining.

Define Armor? Are you talking about armor on a military vehicle or a bulletproof vest?

Are you talking about the teflon coated, armor piercing, cop killing Black Talon bullets?

[SBBII]

I'll grab my pop corn and kick back and let you tell me there isn't armor-piercing ammunition available for rifles or pistols. And that legislation to prohibit this type of ammunition doesn't exist. i.e. Gun Control Act, Law Enforcement Officers' Protection Act (PL 99-408), and Violent Crime Control Act. This should be entertaining. ....


Jesus, Tim. You're so selectively informed. A 30.30 rifle (bottom of the long gun world) fires a round with approximately the same muzzle energy as a very powerful handgun (such as a .44 magnum). IOW, long guns start out where handguns end - over the counter hunting ammuntion (everything above 30-30 FP) penetrates a Level III vest. I'm not quoting figures here, go find 'em yourself.

Steel-core AP rifle ammunition is not generally available to civilians, although pulled .30 cal AP bullets are. What the fuck difference does that or feel-good legislation make?

Re-read the first post in this thread. It speaks to individual responsibility vs. group authority. Belief in one vs the other is the fundamental difference between you and me, and between you and many folks on here.

[Sean88gt]

I HATE the term assault weapons. They are semi-automatic rifles, and the term 'assault' is strictly based off of appearance. An 'assault' weapon IMO should either be fully automatic or be an RPG, everything else is fair game and the gov't has no right messing with it, non-citizen trusting douche bags.

[futant]

Define Armor? Are you talking about armor on a military vehicle or a bulletproof vest?

Are you talking about the teflon coated, armor piercing, cop killing Black Talon bullets?


No shit.
LMAO at Mustang man!!!

How are you supposed to defend yourself with low capacity magazines as well.
What a fucking moron. I'm sure criminals will abide by those rediculous restrictions since they like to 'operate within the law'
It's misinformed dipshits like him that continue this charade, and propagate misinformation.
LOL weren't teflon/black talon bullets from back in the 90's? :rolleyes:

[AL P]

This thread illustrates why gun control people really should educate themselves.

[tazz007]

I think Stroked71Bowtie has it partly right. Yes it's the baby boomer's, but it's just them being pure lazy. Why would they get off there dead asses and do there job, when they can pass a law (Assumably to fix a problem) that will punish the masses, instead of addressing the problem directly.

Example: A curfew for teens. Why? To keep the bad elements off the streets at night. Right? Wrong. The only thing they are doing is being lazy and not going after the "bad elements".

It's the same with gun control. Take away all the guns, and the problem will go away, right? Wrong! The " bad element" will be out after curfew, and the " bad element" will keep their guns, after the rest of us have had them taken away, and banished from the streets after dark. Just exactly what part of this is freedom? The part that confuses me is, they actually believe that this is a good idea. Trust me, the lazy way out is not a good idea.

Charlie

[black01gt]

I think Stroked71Bowtie has it partly right. Yes it's the baby boomer's, but it's just them being pure lazy. Why would they get off there dead asses and do there job, when they can pass a law (Assumably to fix a problem) that will punish the masses, instead of addressing the problem directly.

Example: A curfew for teens. Why? To keep the bad elements off the streets at night. Right? Wrong. The only thing they are doing is being lazy and not going after the "bad elements".

Charlie
Baby Boomers grew up sitting on their lazy dead asses playing video games and listening to rap "music" all day. Right? Wrong. :rolleyes:

[5.0_CJ]

Since you're looking for opinions....

I'm a gun owner and I value the 2nd Amendment. However, I do favor Gun Control regarding assault style weapons w/high capacity magazines utilizing armor piercing and teflon-coated bullets.

And since we're on the issue....Anyone notice how gun violence around the country has permeated the news lately? I would like to open a dialog about that particular issue.

As an owner of assault rifles with high capacity magazines with teflon coated bullets in them I would agree that teflon rounds are a little ridiculous - but I see no reason for them to be banned - you'd be pretty damn disappointed if someone was wearing a vest - ask the north hollywood PD. High capacity magazines do not kill people. In my opinion a crazy person with a 30 round magazine will probably kill less people because he will be firing like a mad man in a rambo movie - reassured he has plenty of rounds.. and hitting few people. But, if he has a small stripper clip with 10 rounds - you can be assured he is going to aim each shot, and kill 10 people - knowing he has to be accurate. That's just my opinion. And either way, the point is mute since you can reload any weapon.

Assault rifles are nothing more than semi (and fully) automatic rifles. The boogy man doesn't manufacturer them - simply because the word 'assault' is attached do people freak out. I do not like the 'some guns are okay' mentality at all. If the founding fathers had access to heavy machine guns, the 2nd amendment would probably read "the right to bare full auto arms." The purpose of the amendment is to insure the people have the ability to resist the government, and the government respects that... and how much ability to resist will we possess if we give up all different types of weapons? We'll end up firing pistols and revolvers across city blocks if that day ever came.

I think this is a great article in my opinion. I enjoyed it.

[tazz007]

Baby Boomers grew up sitting on their lazy dead asses playing video games and listening to rap "music" all day. Right? Wrong. :rolleyes:

LOL No more like sitting on the couch smokin grass and listening to Linard S.

I did not say the next generation was not just as bad or worse. But yes the baby boomer's ( my self included) Are inherently lazy. Too lazy to do what is right.

Charlie

[Slowhand]

Too lazy to do what is right.
Charlie

It's the same fucktarded generation that has fucked Social Security for the rest of us. So fuck you! :p

[Zarathustra]

I was thinking about this today. In my opinion, the gun-toting crowd has an inherently present characteristic behind all the metal and composite plastics that guns really actually are. Some people thrive under this condition, some people just hole up and wait for something bad to happen. Not to say every person who owns a gun is scared, but the underlying emotion that is dealt with here is definitely fear. Fear drives us as humans into doing some pretty crazy shit, sometimes it's for the good, but more often that not it's definitely a bad outcome that ensues when weapons (especially automatic ones) are involved. There are definitely some situations which arms can be used to do well for society. To me, guns don't cause crime, the people who use guns foolishly cause crime, aided by this superiority complex that a gun carries along with it. It's almost as if, by allowing a country's citizens the right to bear arms, the governments of the world would be making an attempt at disguising their control of the masses. (through fear and deception) Almost a false sense of security, do put it more plainly. But that's just a hypothesis.....Having said that, I do agree with CJ on there being a moot point in arguing that large-magazine or even belt-fed weapons are more dangerous than magazine/clips that hold more ammo, every weapon has the capacity to be reloaded. But take a few seconds to imagine a world where guns just weren't there, not at all.

Would the world be a better or worse place?

What would be different?

What would be the same?

[That_Is_My_El_Camino]

But take a few seconds to imagine a world where guns just weren't there, not at all.

Would the world be a better or worse place?

What would be different?

What would be the same?Worse, of course. There's still evil, bad people, and they're still going to do evil, bad things and prey on the weaker that can't defend themselves. What do the older folks or those in poor physical health defend themselves with - a club? a bat? a knife? There's very little they can do against somebody younger, faster, and stronger. A gun gives these people a fighting chance.

Guns as a tool aside, I enjoy manufacturing and shooting my own ammo. It would suck not being able to do that.

[Slowhand]

Would the world be a better or worse place?

What would be different?

What would be the same?

You're forgetting the human factor. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. If it's not with a gun, they'll find some other way.

Not to mention that we'll never get all the guns out of the hands of criminals, so it's an irrelevant situation.

[Zarathustra]

You're forgetting the human factor. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. If it's not with a gun, they'll find some other way.

Not to mention that we'll never get all the guns out of the hands of criminals, so it's an irrelevant situation.


But how many fewer people would kill other people without guns as the quick and easy out for taking someone's life? Think about that...

[GhostTX]

http://www.sararuthscustomcreations.com/Images/other%20patches/0e_1_b.jpg

[Slowhand]

But how many fewer people would kill other people without guns as the quick and easy out for taking someone's life? Think about that...

there's plenty of ways that are far more efficient, easier to conceal, and more accessible.

you're getting caught up in mass murders. those account for less than 1% of all murders in the US. when a murder occurs, it's generally one person getting killed. think of all the ways that are just as easy: a knife, beating the shit out of a person, pouring anti-freeze down someone's throat, strangling them...if a person really wants to kill someone, they will find a way. guns are hardly the issue here, human behavior is. and until you can prove to me that some hood figure isn't going to trying and kill me, I'm not giving up my guns.

[Zarathustra]

I'm not asking you to give them up. I only ask to implore the reasons you so insist on owning a gun. That last sentence said it all...

Fear is the ingredient necessary and inherent to most gun owners, plain and simple.

[Zarathustra]

there's plenty of ways that are far more efficient, easier to conceal, and more accessible.

you're getting caught up in mass murders


None are more efficient that squeezing a trigger from afar and executing a target at a distance, I'm sorry. Especially when you factor in the amount of time the whole process takes. If you think so then you''re dead wrong.

I never said a thing about mass murder.

Are you reading what I'm typing?

[That_Is_My_El_Camino]

It's not fear or paranoia; it's preparedness. It is a fact that bad things will happen; bad people will break into houses; and bad people will kill and do other bad things to other people.

Be one of the sheeple that relies on the police to protect them and their property, or get a gun and protect yourself and your property.

[propellerhead]

But take a few seconds to imagine a world where guns just weren't there, not at all.

Would the world be a better or worse place?

What would be different?

What would be the same?
Same. Only now you'll have Knife Control as the hot issue. Ban knives and you'll have Baseball Bat Control as the hot issue. Then tire irons. Then fists. Then hurtful words. And so on. Gun Control doesn't do shit as far as curing the world of bad people.

[Zarathustra]

It's slightly shocking to me that you can't see the fact that fear and paranoia drive these feelings in us. You see it happening to other people, or it actually happens to you, then you think, Hell i don't want that to happen to me (fear). Then you go buy a gun, problem solved.

[That_Is_My_El_Camino]

It's slightly shocking to me that you can't see the fact that fear and paranoia drive these feelings in us. You see it happening to other people, or it actually happens to you, then you think, Hell i don't want that to happen to me (fear). Then you go buy a gun, problem solved.What do you call it when you see it happening to other people, or it actually happens to you, and you think (and continue to think) that it can't happen (or won't happen again) to you?

Why do you stop at a red light or stop sign at a busy intersection? Why do you look both ways before you cross the street? Why do you lock your door when you leave the house? Fear?

No, I don't expect these things to happen to me, nor is my gun ownership a sign that I'm afraid of these things happening. I'm just being prepared for it if it ever does happen. Being prepared isn't taking anything away from my normal life.

[Zarathustra]

What do you call it when you see it happening to other people, or it actually happens to you, and you think (and continue to think) that it can't happen (or won't happen again) to you?

Why do you stop at a red light or stop sign at a busy intersection? Why do you look both ways before you cross the street? Why do you lock your door when you leave the house? Fear?

No, I don't expect these things to happen to me, nor is my gun ownership a sign that I'm afraid of these things happening. I'm just being prepared for it if it ever does happen. Being prepared isn't taking anything away from my normal life.

First paragraph:
Living your life.

Paragraph two"
For a fear of getting hit by other cars. I lock my door when I leave the house because I don't want anybody without a key getting in. It's simple

Paragraph 3:
Being prepared isn't taking anything away, but you still own a gun, and that's delta from the situation in which you had no 'preparedness'. What drives you to your state of 'preparedness' for anything? What other than fear makes you think these things MAY happen to you?

So a gun makes you prepared for anything, right? What happens if you're not armed when a life-threatening person or situation makes itself known? What if the gun jams? Are you still prepared?

Fear. Fear is the resting principle behind the whole nature behind gun ownership.

[Zarathustra]

** I'm out for the night, I'm still up at the restaurant and we closed an hour ago (no internet at home). But tomorrow...

[That_Is_My_El_Camino]

First paragraph:
Living your life.If you're lucky enough that it never happens to you, or that you survive it happening to you, you're exactly right. Not everybody is so lucky, though.Paragraph two"
I lock my door when I leave the house because I don't want anybody without a key getting in. It's simpleAre you afraid somebody would get into the house, or do you just want to take a few simple steps to more than likely keep them out?Paragraph 3:
Being prepared isn't taking anything away, but you still own a gun, and that's delta from the situation in which you had no 'preparedness'. What drives you to your state of 'preparedness' for anything? What other than fear makes you think these things MAY happen to you?Having a gun doesn't make you prepared. Having a gun and knowing how to use it is one step in preparedness. Knowing that there are bad people in the world makes me think that something like this may happen to me. It's not fear; it's acknowledging reality.So a gun makes you prepared for anything, right?No, it doesn't. But having a gun, knowing how to use it, and knowing what to do in a situation gives me better odds for survival than being unarmed.What happens if you're not armed when a life-threatening person or situation makes itself known?There are only a few places where I'm not armed, and it's not entirely by choice. I carry anywhere the law permits me to.What if the gun jams? Are you still prepared?I trust my gun and my ammunition - thousands of rounds and I have no reason to doubt either one, but I still practice for that.

[Slowhand]

What if the gun jams? Are you still prepared?

preperation is still key here; if I'm properly prepared and keep my guns cleaned and properly function, then there is very little chance that they will jam.

[Slowhand]

What happens if you're not armed when a life-threatening person or situation makes itself known?

When I become of proper age, I will have my CHL, and at that point, it will only be the left wing's ludicrous restrictions on where we can carry that will put me in that situation.

[black01gt]

** I'm out for the night, I'm still up at the restaurant and we closed an hour ago (no internet at home). But tomorrow...
doh...... :eek: This should be good.

[Strychnine]

It's slightly shocking to me that you can't see the fact that fear and paranoia drive these feelings in us. You see it happening to other people, or it actually happens to you, then you think, Hell i don't want that to happen to me (fear). Then you go buy a gun, problem solved.

Not that I agree or disagree, but what is wrong with fear?

Fear is one of the basic human emotions... and remember there are different levels of fear.

What is wrong with a person being having a "fear" of being victimized by lawless members of society and thus taking measures to protect themselves?

Do you think fear is a sign of weakness and that everyone should roll over and accept whatever fate a random criminal chooses to deal them?



Are you of the group that would also claim that situational awareness and paranoia are the same thing?

[Slowhand]

Are you of the group that would also claim that situational awareness and paranoia are the same thing?

I think that's the part of this that he's getting hung up on.

[Strychnine]

I think that's the part of this that he's getting hung up on.

Could be. There seem to be two camps when it comes to this argument.


Fear is a sign of weakness and should be eliminated.

OR

Fear is a survival mechanism and keeps you alive.


IMO, fear is healthy. It is one of the basic human instincts. Fear of crashing my car makes me slow down on icy roads. Fear of burning my house down makes me turn off the fireplace when I leave. Fear of being a victim of a senseless act of violence makes me get my CHL so that I can lawfully protect myself.

Seems like common sense :confused:

[mikeb]

But how many fewer people would kill other people without guns as the quick and easy out for taking someone's life? Think about that...

England has had the great gun control experiment going on for some time, and the results have not been good. What is interesting is that england will not admit that their policy has failed, and they keep trying to make it work by installing video cameras everywhere. So now you have defenseless people and invasion of privacy. Is that where you really want US society to go?

Also, in this article you'll note that the bad guys still have guns, and are willing to use them.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

[GhostTX]

C'mon. I'm really surprised no one has brought up the Britain and Australia farce of gun control. They have the toughest gun control laws out there, and their crime rate went up.

In response, allow me to quote at length from “Gun Control in England: The Tarnished Gold Standard,” written by historian Joyce Lee Malcolm and published in the fall 2004 issue of Journal on Firearms & Public Policy:

[Between 1997 and 2003] crimes with [banned firearms] have more than doubled.... In 2002, for the fourth consecutive year, gun crime in England and Wales rose — by 35 percent for all firearms, and by a whopping 46 percent for the banned handguns. Nearly 10,000 firearms offenses were committed....

Clearly since the ban criminals have not found it difficult to get guns and the balance has not shifted in the interest of public safety....

In the four years from 1997 to 2001 the rate of violent crime more than doubled. The UK murder rate for 2002 was the highest for a century....

A recent study of all the countries of western Europe has found that in 2001 Britain had the worst record for killings, violence and burglary, and its citizens had one of the highest risks in the industrialized world of becoming victims of crime....

And here’s the icing on the cake: “[A] United Nations study of eighteen industrialized countries, including the United States, published in 2002 ... found England and Wales at the top of the Western world’s crime league, with the worst record for ‘very serious’ offenses.” [Emphasis added]

And all this while crime in the United States, including violent crime, has been steadily falling. The “Wild West” seems to be 3,000 miles to our east.
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0512f.asp

Writing in The Gun Owners (Jan. 31, 2000), the newsletter for Gun Owners of America (GOA), former California State Senator H.L. Richardson writes: "They outlawed every semi-auto, even those pretty duck guns, the Browning A5 and the Remington 1100s. They even struck down pump shotguns: the Winchester model 12 and the Remington 870...Do you own a Browning BAR rifle? Banned. How about a Winchester Model 100? Out of luck, all semi-auto hunting rifles were outlawed as well. They didn't miss a one."

Be that as it may, at a cost of $500 million, out of an estimated 7 million firearms (of which 2.8 million were prohibited), only 640,000 guns were surrendered to police. What has been the result? Same as in England. Like in Great Britain, crime Down Under has escalated. Twelve months after the law was implemented in 1997, there has been a 44 percent increase in armed robberies; an 8.6 percent increase in aggravated assaults; and, a 3.2 percent increase in homicides. That same year in the state of Victoria, there was a 300 percent increase in homicides committed with firearms. The following year, robberies increased almost 60 percent in South Australia. By 1999, assaults had increased in New South Wales by almost 20 percent.

Two years after the ban, there have been further increases in crime: armed robberies by 73 percent; unarmed robberies by 28 percent; kidnappings by 38 percent; assaults by 17 percent; manslaughter by 29 percent, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

And consider the fact that over the previous 25-year period, Australia had shown a steady decrease both in homicide with firearms and armed robbery --- until the ban.
http://www.haciendapub.com/comm8.html


Just do some googling.

[mikeb]

C'mon. I'm really surprised no one has brought up the Britain farce of gun control. They have the toughest gun control laws out there, and their crime rate went up.


http://www.fff.org/comment/com0512f.asp

Just do some googling.


first! :)

[GT Dan]

Fear. Fear is the resting principle behind the whole nature behind gun ownership.

Isn't that the same reason you got "saved".... FEAR of going to HELL??

LMAO.... Using your logic, fear is is the driving principle behind EVERYTHING...

If you want to eliminate fear, educate yourself... isn't that what they say about rascism... isn't that what they say about religion... educate yourself on guns and I bet you wont be scared of them anymore... :)

[Zarathustra]

Not that I agree or disagree, but what is wrong with fear?

Fear is one of the basic human emotions... and remember there are different levels of fear.

What is wrong with a person being having a "fear" of being victimized by lawless members of society and thus taking measures to protect themselves?

Do you think fear is a sign of weakness and that everyone should roll over and accept whatever fate a random criminal chooses to deal them?


Are you of the group that would also claim that situational awareness and paranoia are the same thing?


This is good, this is good.

I agree, fear is a part of our everyday lives. I was simply stating a hypothesis, and it looks like you agree with me. I think people should ebb and flow with society and stay out of situations which one would presume to be dangerous and stay away from putting yourself in bad situations. I am not of the group who thinks situational awareness and paranoia are the same thing, that's absurd. The blurring in the line of that dichotomy is what leads to people dangerously using guns, in my opinion. What I'm saying is that guns largely take this fear away and resign all fear in the knowledge that you're able to point and shoot and end someone's life before they can hurt you. The fact the standing fear is dealt with in such a way that you're no more afraid of things you once were, is what I'm getting at.

[Muffrazr]

I agree that there is a very large group of people that buy guns for protection out of fear.

There are other demographics of gun owners, though. My family, starting with my Great-Grandfather, have always been hunters. My Grandfather began to collect guns, as well as hunt. My Father has progressed in the same way, and I intend to do this as well for an investment.

We also protect ourselves, partly from fear of being robbed. We all have CHL's and carry, except me. The guns used for protection are smaller than the average Texan, but they are very easy to access, use, and are very reliable. Even the lady up front carries.

Just thought I would add another perspective for your hypothesis.

[Strychnine]

I agree that there is a very large group of people that buy guns for protection out of fear.

There are other demographics of gun owners, though. My family, starting with my Great-Grandfather, have always been hunters. My Grandfather began to collect guns, as well as hunt. My Father has progressed in the same way, and I intend to do this as well for an investment.

We also protect ourselves, partly from fear of being robbed. We all have CHL's and carry, except me. The guns used for protection are smaller than the average Texan, but they are very easy to access, use, and are very reliable. Even the lady up front carries.

Just thought I would add another perspective for your hypothesis.


True. To some people they are just toys, to some they are tools, to some they are investments, etc.

But back to the orginal point of the article, why do some people feel the need to tell (or force legislation upon) everyone else that guns are not acceptable toys, tools, investments or otherwise?





And though I used the word fear a lot above, I think it could be better described.

While fear is one of the five basic human emotions, and it would probably break down to an element of fear, I think a more fitting description would be a self preservation instinct.

I would bet that the majority of people who carry are of the "The playing field is a bit more level now, and I am better capable of defending my life" mentality, as opposed to "Oh my God, I might be attacked today. I need my gun."

The actions and percieved threat are the same, but the person's mental attitude toward them are different.

[Muffrazr]

True. To some people they are just toys, to some they are tools, to some they are investments, etc.

But back to the orginal point of the article, why do some people feel the need to tell everyone else that guns are not acceptable toys, tools, investments or otherwise?





And though I used the word fear a lot above, I think it could be better described.

While fear is one of the five basic human emotions, and it would probably break down to an element of fear, I think a more fitting description would be a self preservation instinct.

I would bet that the majority of people who carry are of the "The playing field is a bit more level now, and I am better capable of defending my life" mentality, as opposed to "Oh my God, I might be attacked today. I need my gun."

The actions and percieved threat are the same, but the person's mental attitude toward them are different.


In my travels as a truck driver I got to see the huge differences in gun owners, anti-gun types, and even the wack jobs with guns.

I used wack jobs, because these were people with the "Oh my god, I need a gun." mentality. These are not gun owners in my eyes. These are the type people that BadLX would be referring to, I imagine. I have not found as many of these types in Texas. We seem to be different from most of the United States. This is not a statement of being better than anyone. We just really seem different in our way of thinking and understanding. This has been changing as large numbers of people are moving here.

I have no idea where else I was headed with this post. It all just left my train of thought, but I agree with you. :o

[AL P]

While I can see some logic in the idea that people buy guns out of fear. I would submit the idea that it is not fear of criminals but rather fear of helplessness. I think there is a big difference hiding in there.

[Muffrazr]

While I can see some logic in the idea that people buy guns out of fear. I would submit the idea that it is not fear of criminals but rather fear of helplessness. I think there is a big difference hiding in there.


I could see those differences in a few people. Myself, I would have to say criminals more than helplessness. My life to about 2 years ago were completely on my shoulders. I don't feel helpless very often as life has been very difficult until recently. Now that I have figured out a few things, but still learning, I would say that I don't fear much. One of the things I fear is lack of control. Well, I guess that leads back to helpless. HMMMmmmm....back to thinking. I see your point even more. Touche :D

[Zarathustra]

While I can see some logic in the idea that people buy guns out of fear. I would submit the idea that it is not fear of criminals but rather fear of helplessness. I think there is a big difference hiding in there.

I'll agree with that statement. Also with the preceding one that dealt with different demographics of gun owners. I'm sure there are those who deal with owning a gun responsibly, but inevitably there will be the opposite, dumb mother fuckers with an inferiority complex who carry just in case someone brandishes one themselves. Well that leads me to think what sets them apart. What makes the responsible gun owners different from the idiots with guns?

[Mustangman_2000]

http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=346428 http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g18/myjpegs06/Miscellaneous/clap.gif

[GT Dan]

That doesn't address high capacity magazines, Teflon or amour piercing bullets...

[Mustangman_2000]

That doesn't address high capacity magazines, Teflon or amour piercing bullets...

funny.

[GT Dan]

funny.

lmao, I know... I was just busting your chops... :D

[Zarathustra]

Well that leads me to think what sets them apart. What makes the responsible gun owners different from the idiots with guns?

What specific characteristics decipher whether a given gun owner responsibly owns guns and one who should not by most standards own much less have access to guns? What makes a responsible gun owner?

[Muffrazr]

What specific characteristics decipher whether a given gun owner responsibly owns guns and one who should not by most standards own much less have access to guns? What makes a responsible gun owner?


I would say one specific characteristic would be respect, for all things.


When I was 7 years old my dad made me learn from the marksmanship merit badge book for boy scouts. I had to learn how to care for the gun. This meant I had to know how to store one, sight it in, clean it, and keep it safe. I also had to learn from the rifle merit badge book, shotgun, and then I had to prove it all to him. Once I completed all of these tasks I got my first BB gun. After many years of responsible ownership, my dad handed down a .22 cal. rifle that belonged to my Great Grandfather.

This is my example of a responsible gun owner.

[Kart21]

I HATE the term assault weapons. They are semi-automatic rifles, and the term 'assault' is strictly based off of appearance. An 'assault' weapon IMO should either be fully automatic or be an RPG, everything else is fair game and the gov't has no right messing with it, non-citizen trusting douche bags.

Smart man
X2

[Zarathustra]

I would say one specific characteristic would be respect, for all things.


When I was 7 years old my dad made me learn from the marksmanship merit badge book for boy scouts. I had to learn how to care for the gun. This meant I had to know how to store one, sight it in, clean it, and keep it safe. I also had to learn from the rifle merit badge book, shotgun, and then I had to prove it all to him. Once I completed all of these tasks I got my first BB gun. After many years of responsible ownership, my dad handed down a .22 cal. rifle that belonged to my Great Grandfather.

This is my example of a responsible gun owner.


Ok. OK. This is good.

Respect of all things seems to have a root in the quality of awareness that one has some sense of the form of the good. Forms transcend their literal and aesthetic tags associated within our psyche as visual aspects of the form in a different, more microscopic world perception. So this leads to the question of how one acquires the necessary tools necessary for responsible gun ownership. In your case it as a guardian of sorts, and a background in boy scouts that familiarized you with the various risks involved in owning and handling a gun. I think that yours is one of the only true way of responsibly handling weapons. First becoming knowldgeable on regularly cleaning, handling, and aiming/shooting of the weapon involved, as well as accurately assessing the risks involved in gun ownership is a well thought out approach to owning and caring for weapons, especially for showing and educating developing young people into adopting well thought gun handling techniques and practices. But having said that, what kind of percentage of people who own guns actually followed such an arduous process prior to being granted access to the weapons themselves?

[David]

Dont fucking piss me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zarathustra]

Dont fucking piss me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!


??

[Paladin]

Ok. OK. This is good.

Respect of all things seems to have a root in the quality of awareness that one has some sense of the form of the good. Forms transcend their literal and aesthetic tags associated within our psyche as visual aspects of the form in a different, more microscopic world perception. So this leads to the question of how one acquires the necessary tools necessary for responsible gun ownership. In your case it as a guardian of sorts, and a background in boy scouts that familiarized you with the various risks involved in owning and handling a gun. I think that yours is one of the only true way of responsibly handling weapons. First becoming knowldgeable on regularly cleaning, handling, and aiming/shooting of the weapon involved, as well as accurately assessing the risks involved in gun ownership is a well thought out approach to owning and caring for weapons, especially for showing and educating developing young people into adopting well thought gun handling techniques and practices. But having said that, what kind of percentage of people who own guns actually followed such an arduous process prior to being granted access to the weapons themselves?

All of the gun owners I know are respectful.

BTW, the last shooting we had a few days ago in the area I work was 2 guys who were smoking dope and playing with loaded guns to impress the chick in the room. The "victim" didn't like his buddy putting the gun to his head so he slappped at it, and since the shooter had his finger on the gun, it went off and shot the "victim" in the jaw.

I did not get info on whether or not the gun was lawfully purchased, but an educated guess would say it wasn't.

BTW, the injuries to his jaw are not life threatening, not even from lead poisoning.

[That_Is_My_El_Camino]

Ok. OK. This is good.

Respect of all things seems to have a root in the quality of awareness that one has some sense of the form of the good. Forms transcend their literal and aesthetic tags associated within our psyche as visual aspects of the form in a different, more microscopic world perception. So this leads to the question of how one acquires the necessary tools necessary for responsible gun ownership. In your case it as a guardian of sorts, and a background in boy scouts that familiarized you with the various risks involved in owning and handling a gun. I think that yours is one of the only true way of responsibly handling weapons. First becoming knowldgeable on regularly cleaning, handling, and aiming/shooting of the weapon involved, as well as accurately assessing the risks involved in gun ownership is a well thought out approach to owning and caring for weapons, especially for showing and educating developing young people into adopting well thought gun handling techniques and practices. But having said that, what kind of percentage of people who own guns actually followed such an arduous process prior to being granted access to the weapons themselves?Seriously, dude, you're waaaay overthinking (or maybe just overtalking) this.

A responsible gun owner is somebody that understands what can happen if a gun is misused or mishandled and doesn't allow his guns to be misused or mishandled.

[Muffrazr]

Ok. OK. This is good.

Respect of all things seems to have a root in the quality of awareness that one has some sense of the form of the good. Forms transcend their literal and aesthetic tags associated within our psyche as visual aspects of the form in a different, more microscopic world perception. So this leads to the question of how one acquires the necessary tools necessary for responsible gun ownership. In your case it as a guardian of sorts, and a background in boy scouts that familiarized you with the various risks involved in owning and handling a gun. I think that yours is one of the only true way of responsibly handling weapons. First becoming knowldgeable on regularly cleaning, handling, and aiming/shooting of the weapon involved, as well as accurately assessing the risks involved in gun ownership is a well thought out approach to owning and caring for weapons, especially for showing and educating developing young people into adopting well thought gun handling techniques and practices. But having said that, what kind of percentage of people who own guns actually followed such an arduous process prior to being granted access to the weapons themselves?

Anyone I hang out with is a responsible gun owner. Then again, if they weren't, I wouldn't hang out with them.