How do atheists scientifically explain stories like this?

[Phillystang]

Dolphins save surfer from becoming shark's bait

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21689083/?GT1=10547

Surfer Todd Endris needed a miracle. The shark — a monster great white that came out of nowhere — had hit him three times, peeling the skin off his back and mauling his right leg to the bone.

That’s when a pod of bottlenose dolphins intervened, forming a protective ring around Endris, allowing him to get to shore, where quick first aid provided by a friend saved his life.

“Truly a miracle,” Endris told TODAY’s Natalie Morales on Thursday.

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

So first you think that god allowed that guy to have his flesh peeled off by a shark? And second, you think god was involved when dolphins 'helped' him?


I think you answered your own question.

[propellerhead]

Hahha! That ended that debate before it even started.

[Muffrazr]

Dolphins are just about the only other mammal, other than us, that will take on a shark. That's nature.

[Phillystang]

So first you think that god allowed that guy to have his flesh peeled off by a shark? And second, you think god was involved when dolphins 'helped' him?
yes


I think you answered your own question.
I think you dodged the question :eek:

[Hollywood]

Let me get this straight, dolphins are well documented for killing sharks and protecting humans when they are attacked, but you think this incident is the work of God? And you wonder why non-believers don't want to give you any credit. You're one simple son of a bitch Taylor.

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

yes



I think you dodged the question :eek:

It's called instinct, it's been well documented, it's just yet another part of that wacky thing called science.

Does god make animals eat their young?


Are you implying that god told those dolphins to save that guy from a shark? Why did god tell the shark to maul the guy in the first place? Do sharks believe in god? I guess they would have to since that's what made him bite that dewd. I guess dolphins are believers as well, they couldn't have helped that guy if they didn't. What if the dolphins had converted to another faith, how did god know that they didn't? Lucky for that guy those dolphins weren't muslim.

Oh, and please answer every question, I would hate to think you dodged any of them.

[Phillystang]

Why do wild, untrained dolphins instinctively help humans? How does this fit in with survival of the fittest, why do dolphins care about humans? I could understand protecting their young or their own pod. What does science say?

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

Why do wild, untrained dolphins instinctively help humans? How does this fit in with survival of the fittest, why do dolphins care about humans? I could understand protecting their young or their own pod. What does science say?

Stop dodging my questions (I like that game)

[propellerhead]

Why do wild, untrained dolphins instinctively help humans? How does this fit in with survival of the fittest, why do dolphins care about humans? I could understand protecting their young or their own pod. What does science say?
It's animal instinct. Why do you have to look for another reason?

If you didn't understand gravity, would you say it's god's work that a book will fall if I let go of it? Just because you can't understand the science of it you attribute it to an unseen force called god?

[Phillystang]

Stop dodging my questions (I like that game)
You dodged the op and because you didn't have an explanation from scientific methods you turn and attack believers, see how that works?

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

You dodged the op and because you didn't have an explanation from scientific methods you turn and attack believers, see how that works?

No, I answered your question. Instinct. You just didn't like the answer. See how THAT works?

[Hollywood]

Why do wild, untrained dolphins instinctively help humans? How does this fit in with survival of the fittest, why do dolphins care about humans? I could understand protecting their young or their own pod. What does science say?


Because their gods creatures. Sharks are the devils creatures, so he made the shark attack the human. But then God sent the angelic dolphin to the rescue :rolleyes:

Dolphins are considered to be amongst the most intelligent of animals. They have very playful attitudes and like humans. And get this, like humans, they are mammals. Wow! It's called science. No offense, but you'd have to have the mind of a child to think that normal behavior in a dolphin is "god's work".

[Phillystang]

It's animal instinct. Why do you have to look for another reason? It's God. Why do you have to look for another reason?

If you didn't understand gravity, would you say it's god's work that a book will fall if I let go of it? Just because you can't understand the science of it you attribute it to an unseen force called god?
Where did gravity come from according to science? Where do these fixed laws come from? What did they evolve from in this big ole uncaused world?

[Phillystang]

No, I answered your question. Instinct. You just didn't like the answer. See how THAT works?

What are the scientific reasons for instinct? What does it benefit the dolphin. Does it help the dolphin survive if it jumps in the way of a shark to help some other species?

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

What are the scientific reasons for instinct? What does it benefit the dolphin. Does it help the dolphin survive if it jumps in the way of a shark to help some other species?

You haven't answered my questions.

[Hollywood]

My Mama says that alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush.

*snicker

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

Why do wild, untrained dolphins instinctively help humans? How does this fit in with survival of the fittest, why do dolphins care about humans? I could understand protecting their young or their own pod. What does science say?

what is survival of the fittest? is that a god term?

[propellerhead]

It's God. Why do you have to look for another reason?
I wasn't looking for another reason. I'm happy believing in science and logic and absolute truths. I have no use or desire to explain the unknown or unprovable with some magical force. You started this thread.

[Phillystang]

You haven't answered my questions.
You know the answers.

[Phillystang]

I wasn't looking for another reason. I'm happy believing in science and logic and absolute truths. I have no use or desire to explain the unknown or unprovable with some magical force. You started this thread.

And you came in with your wisdomly input didn't you?

[Phillystang]

*snicker

strawman fallacy, but if that's all you can come up with, maybe it will take you places...

[Hollywood]

strawman fallacy, but if that's all you can come up with, maybe it will take you places...


I've already offered logic, not my fault you couldn't grasp it. I figured i'd put something out there in simpler terms seeing how you are, well, simple. <---- let me know if this incomprehensible. Seeing how you can't grasp animal or human instinct I can't assume anything with you.

[flashstang04]

If someone rejects the idea of a personal maker, he must ultimately believe that an impersonal force has determined reality. The only thing available is chance. Chance is the only "real" thing in the universe, and can't by it's nature be measured. Everything is according to chance then, including our ability to comprehend ANYTHING. In this way of thinking, there is no way to place a measure of standard on anything, so being an unbeliever and claiming to believe "absolute truth" is impossible. It is at odds with itself.

[propellerhead]

And you came in with your wisdomly input didn't you?
Did I misunderstand the title of your thread?

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

You know the answers.

I'd still like you to answer them

[Denny]

You guys are looking too far into it. Dolphins are angels. Next?

[Phillystang]

I'd still like you to answer them

Read the book of Job if you're seriously interested in answers regarding this.

[Hollywood]

Read the book of Job if you're seriously interested in answers regarding this.


I have read the book of job, it doesn't answer his question. Just go ahead and admit you don't know the answer and you'll get back to him after service this Sunday.

[Phillystang]

No offense, but you'd have to have the mind of a child to think that normal behavior in a dolphin is "god's work".

How can there be "normal" behavior if they are in a continuous state of evolving? How did pre-dolphin ancestry develop such a fondness for bipeds?

[Phillystang]

I have read the book of job, it doesn't answer his question. Just go ahead and admit you don't know the answer and you'll get back to him after service this Sunday.
No offense, but you'd have to have the mind of a child to think that the book of Job doesn't answer his question.

[Muffrazr]

I beleive post 4 was simple enough and to the point. Otherwise, stick with Denny's response.


Philly, if you ask for people's opinion only to argue with them about it, then noone will ever take you seriously. This is all speculative thought, every last bit. You have a couple of options: open your mind to think outside your own box, or keep it closed and stick with what you know.

[Muffrazr]

How can there be "normal" behavior if they are in a continuous state of evolving? How did pre-dolphin ancestry develop such a fondness for bipeds?

It is normal behavior because they evolved into such intelligent creatures. They can sense our fear and they have already formed their defense system against sharks. Naturally, they would do what they have evolved to do.

[Hollywood]

How can there be "normal" behavior if they are in a continuous state of evolving? How did pre-dolphin ancestry develop such a fondness for bipeds?


Biped? Using that word screams "i'm trying to sound intelligent." This goes back to you not understanding how something works, so you say "god" because you aren't able to comprehend how it came about. But don't get down, you see, every god in every religion was born this way. When early man couldn't explain something, he credited it to a mythical being. A god or gods. The Chinese, the ancient Egyptians, the Native Americans, and on and on and on. Some were intelligent enough to figure out that over time there seems to be a logical explanation for everything. Granted, we don't have all the answers, but as we move foward, more and more things are becoming explainable. Yet modern day christian hasn't caught on to this. Even when something can be explained, you still think it's "Gods doing," thats a prehistoric mindset that will continue to lead you down a path of wasteful living, as you see, unlike me, I don't take this life for granted, because it's all we have. Whereas you, are living for an after life, frivously throwing the now away as you blindly believe because a book written by a bunch of men you never met wrote something. Imagine that, you never met these people, but you give them full credit and put your entire life in their hands. All without a shred of evidence.

[Fastback]

It is normal behavior because they evolved into such intelligent creatures. They can sense our fear and they have already formed their defense system against sharks. Naturally, they would do what they have evolved to do.

Philly, they have evolved into what they were created to do...just sayin :)

[Muffrazr]

Philly, they have evolved into what they were created to do...just sayin :)

I was wondering who was gonna pick it up first.

Notice, no argument towards his opinion. ;)

[Fastback]

you blindly believe because a book written by a bunch of men you never met wrote something. Imagine that, you never met these people, but you give them full credit and put your entire life in their hands. All without a shred of evidence.

This is the precise point at which the supernatural comes in and we split. I am glad you said this. For believers it is not just as you said. There is more, a spiritual eyesight, if you will. Probably impossible to explain to you but nonetheless, real. I wish I could show you what I know, what Phillystang knows, BrainC, Denny, etc. I understand it is all foolishness to you. What can be said? All I know to tell you is that I am a witness that there is a God. No matter what "sign" I could show you, you would shirk it off as "science" or "coincidence"... all fully understandable. The thing is, and don't take this the wrong way, you have to HUMBLE yourself and ask God to show you if you want to know the truth. As long as you are "in your head" you will never see.

[Muffrazr]

This is the precise point at which the supernatural comes in and we split. I am glad you said this. For believers it is not just as you said. There is more, a spiritual eyesight, if you will. Probably impossible to explain to you but nonetheless, real. I wish I could show you what I know, what Phillystang knows, BrainC, Denny, etc. I understand it is all foolishness to you. What can be said? All I know to tell you is that I am a witness that there is a God. No matter what "sign" I could show you, you would shirk it off as "science" or "coincidence"... all fully understandable. The thing is, and don't take this the wrong way, you have to HUMBLE yourself and ask God to show you if you want to know the truth. As long as you are "in your head" you will never see.


What about folks like me? I am humbled by a lot of things. I am in my head, in nature, and just about everywhere else. I live by the golden rule. I lookout for my fellow man. Yet, I am up in arms with religion. I would guess that the stigma of a lot of organised religions don't help matters, either.

I guess I could be called "spiritual" on some levels. I have seen some wacked out stuff. Some stuff was positive, but definitely not all.

[flashstang04]

This is the precise point at which the supernatural comes in and we split. I am glad you said this. For believers it is not just as you said. There is more, a spiritual eyesight, if you will. Probably impossible to explain to you but nonetheless, real. I wish I could show you what I know, what Phillystang knows, BrainC, Denny, etc. I understand it is all foolishness to you. What can be said? All I know to tell you is that I am a witness that there is a God. No matter what "sign" I could show you, you would shirk it off as "science" or "coincidence"... all fully understandable. The thing is, and don't take this the wrong way, you have to HUMBLE yourself and ask God to show you if you want to know the truth. As long as you are "in your head" you will never see.


There was a whole thread on this very thing... as we talked about, I had experiences that undoubtedly were God. In fact, I can't see how people can look at some events in their life and not see......but oh well. I would suggest re reading that thread and THEN posting "debunks" to people's experiences.

[Hollywood]

This is the precise point at which the supernatural comes in and we split. I am glad you said this. For believers it is not just as you said. There is more, a spiritual eyesight, if you will. Probably impossible to explain to you but nonetheless, real. I wish I could show you what I know, what Phillystang knows, BrainC, Denny, etc. I understand it is all foolishness to you. What can be said? All I know to tell you is that I am a witness that there is a God. No matter what "sign" I could show you, you would shirk it off as "science" or "coincidence"... all fully understandable. The thing is, and don't take this the wrong way, you have to HUMBLE yourself and ask God to show you if you want to know the truth. As long as you are "in your head" you will never see.

FWIW, I was a Christian from childhood up until I was 24 years old. At the tail end of that, I worked and traveled with Bishop TD Jakes. I didn't become an atheist over night.

[flashstang04]

What about folks like me? I am humbled by a lot of things. I am in my head, in nature, and just about everywhere else. I live by the golden rule. I lookout for my fellow man. Yet, I am up in arms with religion. I would guess that the stigma of a lot of organised religions don't help matters, either.

I guess I could be called "spiritual" on some levels. I have seen some wacked out stuff. Some stuff was positive, but definitely not all.


You are not alone in some of this...

Im going out on a ledge here, but most REAL Christians will find themselves at odd with religion...there is an enormous difference.


*puts on flame suit

[Fastback]

FWIW, I was a Christian from childhood up until I was 24 years old. At the tail end of that, I worked and traveled with Bishop TD Jakes. I didn't become an atheist over night.

What happened to make you "turn" from Christianity?

[flashstang04]

What happened to make you "turn" from Christianity?

You can turn from religion, but that's it.

[Fastback]

You are not alone in some of this...

Im going out on a ledge here, but most REAL Christians will find themselves at odd with religion...there is an enormous difference.


*puts on flame suit

WHAT??? jk ...well said

[Muffrazr]

I hope that you aren't suiting up for my response. I would like to think I have never flamed on anyone's religion or views of religion.

[flashstang04]

I hope that you aren't suiting up for my response. I would like to think I have never flamed on anyone's religion or views of religion.

To the contrary, I would think you would agree with me from what I have read from you....

[Muffrazr]

To the contrary, I would think you would agree with me from what I have read from you....


My experience with christianity in my recent years would be considered "jailhouse religion". When I was younger I had to go to church, but I wouldn't use that time to classify myself as a christian because I didn't understand it then. I understand why some need it and why some choose it, I would even venture to say that I agree with the vision of christianity.

I guess the simplest way to put it is, I don't beleive in something unless I can prove it. However, I do have ideas behind what I can't prove.

I can agree with your opinion about "real christians", though, if we are considering them in the same way. I look at a "real christian" as one who demands the truth with out following blindly, yet never walks away when the truth is not easily attainable.

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

Read the book of Job if you're seriously interested in answers regarding this.

I don't want Jobs answer, I want yours.

[flashstang04]

My experience with christianity in my recent years would be considered "jailhouse religion". When I was younger I had to go to church, but I wouldn't use that time to classify myself as a christian because I didn't understand it then. I understand why some need it and why some choose it, I would even venture to say that I agree with the vision of christianity.

I guess the simplest way to put it is, I don't beleive in something unless I can prove it. However, I do have ideas behind what I can't prove.

I can agree with your opinion about "real christians", though, if we are considering them in the same way. I look at a "real christian" as one who demands the truth with out following blindly, yet never walks away when the truth is not easily attainable.


I absolutely agree. It just so happens that all the truth IS available, with some study. Most don't want to do the work involved. If they believe in faith and don't want to explore it....fine, more power to them. It doesn't make me better than them. In fact, I may be a little lower even BECAUSE I need the proof I seek. However, seeking the proof makes you look at all of it. I think that is probably by design. It takes all kinds.

[GT Dan]

I think the bigger question is does anyone really give a shit...

[Muffrazr]

I absolutely agree. It just so happens that all the truth IS available, with some study. Most don't want to do the work involved. If they believe in faith and don't want to explore it....fine, more power to them. It doesn't make me better than them. In fact, I may be a little lower even BECAUSE I need the proof I seek. However, seeking the proof makes you look at all of it. I think that is probably by design. It takes all kinds.


We totally jacked this thread. :o

I can dig it. I wouldn't say you would be lower, if there was actually a scale, because you want the truth. It just makes you different.

[Brain_Mach1]

Dolphins save surfer from becoming shark's bait

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21689083/?GT1=10547
I guess that guy was truly saved! :D

[Muffrazr]

I think the bigger question is does anyone really give a shit...


Why would you come in here talking like that? Add something that pertains or get out. There are rules to follow here.

[Fastback]

Why would you come in here talking like that? Add something that pertains or get out. There are rules to follow here.

LOL... to bust our chops.... it's like Monday in here.

[Hollywood]

What happened to make you "turn" from Christianity?


-Man over the course of time has created countless Gods and why? 2 reasons:

1. Fear of the unknown/mortality/death
2. the unexplainable

-In all my years of the church, dealing with fellow christians, others who were atheist or agnostic and my mother who was a satanist, I noticed 2 things. 1-excluding the christian extremist, all parties pretty much conduct themselves in the same manor. Christians, supposedly people of God, who pray and work hard to be better people, often are quite the opposite. Don't you find that odd? Shouldn't someone who's playing on God's team have somewhat of an edge or advantage in moral fortitude? Yet, they don't.

-God is supposedly omnipresent, etc. Man prays to him for help, guidance, etc. Yet children at an alarming rate are molested by priest, in a house of God. Where is this God? If God won't help an innocent child, why do you pray to him? why do you bother with request if he won't defend anyone? Don't you find it funny that he hasn't shown himself in this millennium? And only in biblical times? Todays miracles consist of things that happen on a daily basis. Its as if the public is desperate to find proof of their God.

-the only proof of God relies on an often read, but rarely examined book called the bible. In a thousand years, will people see Dr. Seuss as a religion? A god? There are books on dragons and vampires, yet no one believes in them. Burden of proof is on the believer, yet, all that can be offered up is "faith". Do you have faith that unicorns are real? Why is so much weight given to the bible, when what we do know about it's authors come from the very book they wrote. Kind of like me writing my own autobiography claiming i'm a stand up guy. Says who? Says me? Usually a 3rd party is required to validate such claims.

-The falacies in the bible, the long list of contradictions (no I won't name them because i've posted them in several other threads over the past 4 years, do a search if you really want them).

-A perfect god created man...then how can something imperfect come from something perfect? What is perfect cannot make it's self imperfect.

-A perfectly compassionate god who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

-the thought of Infinite punishment for finite sins sounds ridiculous.

- Think of all the people in remote regions who have never been exposed to christianity, so they are sentenced to eternal damnation regardless of how they have lived? no just god would ever judge a man by his beliefs and not his actions. Sounds like a fairy tale.

I have more reasons but frankly, I think i've provided enough.

[Muffrazr]

LOL... to bust our chops.... it's like Monday in here.


Are Mondays especially bad because everyone's fresh from Sunday school?

I just don't get why someone would come in here, of all places, to spew junk like that.

[flashstang04]

-Man over the course of time has created countless Gods and why? 2 reasons:

1. Fear of the unknown/mortality/death
2. the unexplainable

-In all my years of the church, dealing with fellow christians, others who were atheist or agnostic and my mother who was a satanist, I noticed 2 things. 1-excluding the christian extremist, all parties pretty much conduct themselves in the same manor. Christians, supposedly people of God, who pray and work hard to be better people, often are quite the opposite. Don't you find that odd? Shouldn't someone who's playing on God's team have somewhat of an edge or advantage in moral fortitude? Yet, they don't.

-God is supposedly omnipresent, etc. Man prays to him for help, guidance, etc. Yet children at an alarming rate are molested by priest, in a house of God. Where is this God? If God won't help an innocent child, why do you pray to him? why do you bother with request if he won't defend anyone? Don't you find it funny that he hasn't shown himself in this millennium? And only in biblical times? Todays miracles consist of things that happen on a daily basis. Its as if the public is desperate to find proof of their God.

-the only proof of God relies on an often read, but rarely examined book called the bible. In a thousand years, will people see Dr. Seuss as a religion? A god? There are books on dragons and vampires, yet no one believes in them. Burden of proof is on the believer, yet, all that can be offered up is "faith". Do you have faith that unicorns are real? Why is so much weight given to the bible, when what we do know about it's authors come from the very book they wrote. Kind of like me writing my own autobiography claiming i'm a stand up guy. Says who? Says me? Usually a 3rd party is required to validate such claims.

-The falacies in the bible, the long list of contradictions (no I won't name them because i've posted them in several other threads over the past 4 years, do a search if you really want them).

-A perfect god created man...then how can something imperfect come from something perfect? What is perfect cannot make it's self imperfect.

-A perfectly compassionate god who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

-the thought of Infinite punishment for finite sins sounds ridiculous.

- Think of all the people in remote regions who have never been exposed to christianity, so they are sentenced to eternal damnation regardless of how they have lived? no just god would ever judge a man by his beliefs and not his actions. Sounds like a fairy tale.

I have more reasons but frankly, I think i've provided enough.


There are answers to most of these things HW. One thing you have to realize is that your questions' point of view is from a fallen world. Once you accept this it starts to make sense.

As far as believers being in bad situations and getting in trouble..I agree with you. If you were the supreme enemy of Christianity, wouldn't YOU focus more on them? The others are no threat...as they are fallen anyway. Scripture clearly reveals that this is Satan's world.

[Phillystang]

Biped? Using that word screams "i'm trying to sound intelligent." This goes back to you not understanding how something works, so you say "god" because you aren't able to comprehend how it came about. But don't get down, you see, every god in every religion was born this way. When early man couldn't explain something, he credited it to a mythical being. A god or gods. The Chinese, the ancient Egyptians, the Native Americans, and on and on and on. Some were intelligent enough to figure out that over time there seems to be a logical explanation for everything. Granted, we don't have all the answers, but as we move foward, more and more things are becoming explainable. Yet modern day christian hasn't caught on to this. Even when something can be explained, you still think it's "Gods doing," thats a prehistoric mindset that will continue to lead you down a path of wasteful living, as you see, unlike me, I don't take this life for granted, because it's all we have. Whereas you, are living for an after life, frivously throwing the now away as you blindly believe because a book written by a bunch of men you never met wrote something. Imagine that, you never met these people, but you give them full credit and put your entire life in their hands. All without a shred of evidence.
Now you are critiquing the very vocabulary I use along with an attack on believers' intelligence all because you cannot adequately explain the orig. post.

[Phillystang]

I was wondering who was gonna pick it up first.

Notice, no argument towards his opinion. ;)
You're right, majority = truth, you got me, heh heh

[Phillystang]

I think the bigger question is does anyone really give a shit...
Yes, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? Is that a wise investment?

[Phillystang]

FWIW, I was a Christian from childhood up until I was 24 years old. At the tail end of that, I worked and traveled with Bishop TD Jakes. I didn't become an atheist over night.
You weren't a Christian...
T.D. Jakes? Word of Faith guys are a distortion on what following Christ is about.

[Fastback]

-Man over the course of time has created countless Gods and why? 2 reasons:

1. Fear of the unknown/mortality/death
2. the unexplainable

-In all my years of the church, dealing with fellow christians, others who were atheist or agnostic and my mother who was a satanist, I noticed 2 things. 1-excluding the christian extremist, all parties pretty much conduct themselves in the same manor. Christians, supposedly people of God, who pray and work hard to be better people, often are quite the opposite. Don't you find that odd? Shouldn't someone who's playing on God's team have somewhat of an edge or advantage in moral fortitude? Yet, they don't.
Yes, I understand. Many, many people are hypocrites. Jesus spoke out about this. We, all of us, are fallible because we are all human beings. Just because someone is a Christian does not mean that he is "walking in victory" and frankly, many don't even know what that means or how to do it. We all need God. Honestly, we all fall short, no one is good but God. However, Christians are in the process of being made holy. Unfortunately, we won't be complete until death. It's like a child growing into adulthood. It is a spirit growth.

-God is supposedly omnipresent, etc. Man prays to him for help, guidance, etc. Yet children at an alarming rate are molested by priest, in a house of God. Where is this God? If God won't help an innocent child, why do you pray to him? why do you bother with request if he won't defend anyone? Don't you find it funny that he hasn't shown himself in this millennium? And only in biblical times? Todays miracles consist of things that happen on a daily basis. Its as if the public is desperate to find proof of their God.

Yes, God is omnipresent etc. Yes, I once heard of a Jewish man speaking about the "pit of babies" in the Holocaust. And I, too, have these questions. Why, God, why? I believe that there are rules of engagement between Satan's forces and God's. We know that there is a Holy War in Heaven, we know the outcome. The world is the defining field for suffering, evil, unjustness, tragedy and all things related so that we might know by contrast what is love, peace, joy, happiness, etc. Remember, God sent His blameless son to die as well.

--the only proof of God relies on an often read, but rarely examined book called the bible. In a thousand years, will people see Dr. Seuss as a religion? A god? There are books on dragons and vampires, yet no one believes in them. Burden of proof is on the believer, yet, all that can be offered up is "faith". Do you have faith that unicorns are real? Why is so much weight given to the bible, when what we do know about it's authors come from the very book they wrote. Kind of like me writing my own autobiography claiming i'm a stand up guy. Says who? Says me? Usually a 3rd party is required to validate such claims.

The Bible is unlike other books by far. There are more ancient copies of it than any other ancient book. You can check it out against the Iliad etc. if you are interested:Compared to other ancient documents, the New Testament, for example, has far more textual evidence in its favor than any other ancient writing. Please consider the chart below.





<CENTER><TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="96%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Author</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>When Written</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Earliest Copy</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Time Span</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>No. of Copies</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Homer (Iliad)</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">900 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">400 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">500 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">643</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Ceasar (The Gallic Wars)</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">100 - 44 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">900 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,000 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">10</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Plato (Tetralogies)</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">427 - 347 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">900 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,200 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">7</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Aristotle</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">384 - 322 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,100 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,400 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">49</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Herodotus (History)</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">480 - 425 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">900 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,300 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">8</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Euripedes</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">480 - 406 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,100 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,500 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">9</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>New Testament</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">50 - 90 A.D.</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">130 AD




</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">30 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">24,000</TD></TR><TR><TD width="102%" colSpan=5>This chart was adapted from charts in Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell, 1979, pages 42 and 43.









</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>



--The falacies in the bible, the long list of contradictions (no I won't name them because i've posted them in several other threads over the past 4 years, do a search if you really want them).

-A perfect god created man...then how can something imperfect come from something perfect? What is perfect cannot make it's self imperfect.

-A perfectly compassionate god who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

-the thought of Infinite punishment for finite sins sounds ridiculous.
I have seen Denny refute your Bible falacies lists before, and I have seen many people say that there are fallacies. But contrary to that, I see the Bible as ever holding up against the test of time. I mean people try to trip over stuff that is poetry in many cases. You have to take it all in context. I believe that is true with many books in addition to the Bible.

As far as a perfect God. What does that mean to you? Sweet? I mean God owes us nothing to cut to the chase. We could easily turn this around into, "Why do good things happen to bad people?" See? Ofcourse God created Satan. Satan is the father of evil. He is the one deceiving you right now into believing that God is not just and that He is not perfect or that He just plain does not exist.

- Think of all the people in remote regions who have never been exposed to christianity, so they are sentenced to eternal damnation regardless of how they have lived? no just god would ever judge a man by his beliefs and not his actions.

Once again, God can do what God wants cuz He is God. The Potter. I don't know what God's plans are for those who haven't heard but I am fairly certain if they haven't heard they will hear in the grave:

John Ch5



24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—

[flashstang04]

Nice post fastback

[Hollywood]

Now you are critiquing the very vocabulary I use along with an attack on believers' intelligence all because you cannot adequately explain the orig. post.

Did you stop reading after I critiqued your vocablulary? :confused: Apparently I confused you yet again, not surprised, you are the same person that thinks a dolphins natural instinct is the work of god.


You weren't a Christian...



I was more of a christian than anyone i've seen on this board to date. ;)


Yes, I understand. Many, many people are hypocrites. Jesus spoke out about this. We, all of us, are fallible because we are all human beings. Just because someone is a Christian does not mean that he is "walking in victory" and frankly, many don't even know what that means or how to do it. We all need God. Honestly, we all fall short, no one is good but God. However, Christians are in the process of being made holy. Unfortunately, we won't be complete until death. It's like a child growing into adulthood. It is a spirit growth.



Yes, God is omnipresent etc. Yes, I once heard of a Jewish man speaking about the "pit of babies" in the Holocaust. And I, too, have these questions. Why, God, why? I believe that there are rules of engagement between Satan's forces and God's. We know that there is a Holy War in Heaven, we know the outcome. The world is the defining field for suffering, evil, unjustness, tragedy and all things related so that we might know by contrast what is love, peace, joy, happiness, etc. Remember, God sent His blameless son to die as well.



The Bible is unlike other books by far. There are more ancient copies of it than any other ancient book. You can check it out against the Iliad etc. if you are interested:Compared to other ancient documents, the New Testament, for example, has far more textual evidence in its favor than any other ancient writing. Please consider the chart below.





<CENTER><TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="96%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Author</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>When Written</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Earliest Copy</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Time Span</TD><TD align=middle width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>No. of Copies</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Homer (Iliad)</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">900 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">400 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">500 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">643</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Ceasar (The Gallic Wars)</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">100 - 44 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">900 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,000 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">10</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Plato (Tetralogies)</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">427 - 347 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">900 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,200 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">7</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Aristotle</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">384 - 322 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,100 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,400 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">49</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Herodotus (History)</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">480 - 425 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">900 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,300 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">8</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>Euripedes</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">480 - 406 BC</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,100 AD</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">1,500 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">9</TD></TR><TR><TD width="20%" bgColor=#e6e6e6>New Testament</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">50 - 90 A.D.</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">130 AD




</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">30 years</TD><TD align=middle width="20%">24,000</TD></TR><TR><TD width="102%" colSpan=5>This chart was adapted from charts in Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell, 1979, pages 42 and 43.









</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>




I have seen Denny refute your Bible falacies lists before, and I have seen many people say that there are fallacies. But contrary to that, I see the Bible as ever holding up against the test of time. I mean people try to trip over stuff that is poetry in many cases. You have to take it all in context. I believe that is true with many books in addition to the Bible.

As far as a perfect God. What does that mean to you? Sweet? I mean God owes us nothing to cut to the chase. We could easily turn this around into, "Why do good things happen to bad people?" See? Ofcourse God created Satan. Satan is the father of evil. He is the one deceiving you right now into believing that God is not just and that He is not perfect or that He just plain does not exist.



Once again, God can do what God wants cuz He is God. The Potter. I don't know what God's plans are for those who haven't heard but I am fairly certain if they haven't heard they will hear in the grave:

John Ch5



24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—

Most of what you just said is nothing more than generalizations and assumptions. Typical. Don't bother quoting the bible, its a book written by man, with nothing to validate it but "faith". Burden of proof is on the believer. Until then, god is the fiction list with unicorns and dragons.

[BrianC]

Most of what you just said is nothing more than generalizations and assumptions. Typical. Don't bother quoting the bible, its a book written by man, with nothing to validate it but "faith". Burden of proof is on the believer. Until then, god is the fiction list with unicorns and dragons.

I'm not going to get into this conversation, and I'm not agreeing with anyone here about anything. However, you made an incorrect statement here and I'd like to disprove your statement. You are invited to a thread called "Biblical & Historical Prophecy Fulfillments (How do Atheists explain this?) " and see if you can justify your statement that the Bible is written by man with NOTHING to validate it but "faith." :) Find the thread and I challenge you to disprove what I've presented in the thread.

[Zarathustra]

Dolphins are jesus, you know!?


HOLLYWOOD '08!!!!

[Shorty]

Yet children at an alarming rate are molested by priest, in a house of God. Where is this God?
He's commanding his Dolphin team to protect surfers from sharks.

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

He's commanding his Dolphin team to protect surfers from sharks.


lol

[ClockwrkOrangeS4]

http://www.wiu.edu/users/emp102/DolphinWeb/dolphin_behavior.htm


Speaking of this, has anyone seen Mythbusters recently?

[poopnut2]

Dolphins hate sharks.

I think that was pretty easy to explain.

[jones4stangs]

Dolphins save surfer from becoming shark's bait

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21689083/?GT1=10547
Endris, who is still undergoing physical therapy to repair muscle damage suffered during the attack, is back in the water and on his board in the same spot where he almost lost his life.
Wow, God must really appreciate this guy. What a testimony.

No one knows why dolphins protect humans, but stories of the marine mammals rescuing humans go back to ancient Greece, according to the Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society.
It's good to know these miracles are consistent.

[poopnut2]

Oh no!
<embed width="448" height="365" src="http://www.ifilm.com/efp" quality="high" bgcolor="000000" name="efp" align="middle" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" flashvars="flvbaseclip=2763525&"> </embed> <h1><a href="http://www.ifilm.com/video/2763525">Hunter and Hunted: Dolphin Attack</a></h1><span>Posted Aug 14, 2006</span><p>Why are dolphins attacking humans? </p>

[Turd]

I don't want Jobs answer, I want yours.

why not?

[Rusty Shackleford]

i've never ventured into this forum because...well...its a dfwstangs theology forum. but i decided to today while bored at work. i read a few posts on this thread and laughed to myself. for those of you arguing with the christians: save your breath. christians do not follow logical thinking when it comes to religion. that is what faith is. that is all christians have...faith. that is why you will just get frustrated when you try to have an intelligent conversation with most christians. and there is nothing intelligent about the original question asked in post #1.

[flashstang04]

i've never ventured into this forum because...well...its a dfwstangs theology forum. but i decided to today while bored at work. i read a few posts on this thread and laughed to myself. for those of you arguing with the christians: save your breath. christians do not follow logical thinking when it comes to religion. that is what faith is. that is all christians have...faith. that is why you will just get frustrated when you try to have an intelligent conversation with most christians. and there is nothing intelligent about the original question asked in post #1.


Wow, great post.. :rolleyes: