3rd Thread for BrianC [Archive]

BrianC

11-09-2007, 04:24 PM

The emphasis is God choosing or man choosing though...

The emphasis that Phillystang refuses to acknowledge is that I keep saying that God is responsible for the faith in EVERYONE that allows us to seek, love and choose God, and therefore, God is responsible for our salvation. However, we have a choice to use that faith or get hard hearted and rebel against it and go against God. God doesn't force you to love Him, because that's not true love. That's playing puppet master with people's lives and takes free will completely off the table and says that this life is pointless since our destiny's already chosen by God and we're either going to go to hell against our will or go to heaven against our will. LIFE IS NOT POINTLESS! Thank you very much for that wonderful insight into your completely illogical theory, Phillystang.

I think I'll go tell the world right now that they don't need to worry about seeking Jesus, because God's going to force them into going to heaven or hell against their will anyway, so it doesn't matter what they do; may as well live it up and sin all ya' want! Have fun!!

Since you vowed not to post in the others...
[/quote]
What don't you understand about "I'm done with this conversation?"

For the last time, a man that is unregenerate will not love God and accept Jesus.

For the last time, Jesus saw that in the beginning and didn't choose that guy that would not love God or accept Jesus. It's called "logical" when you know all and see the future. Oh, but I forgot...God's not logical. He's random, right?

John 10
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Why don't they believe Brian? Because they didn't choose him? No wait a minute, in the present they are not believing so forget about what God saw in the future. Why are they not believing now, in the present?

"you do not believe because you are not my sheep"

Think this through logically, for your theory that we choose God and then seeing that choice in the future, God elects and chooses. What does this verse say Brian?

They don't become sheep by believing, they believe because they are sheep.

And once again, for the last time, they don't "hear" because they were not chosen. Why weren't they chosen? Because they ignored the faith in them that gives them the ability to believe and be saved. God knew they wouldn't believe and therefore did not choose them. It's WAY too simple...but there's no room for logic, wisdom or free will in your theory land. You kill the whole purpose for life itself and turn God into a mean God that casts people into hell for his pleasure. Again, nice job with that whole theory!

Pslam 91:14 says, "Because he loved Me, I will deliver him." That's pretty straight forward as to the cause of salvation and God's choice. Your answer is, "Because God MADE him love Him." I know, because you've already answered that way. Well, news flash, it doesn't say "because God MADE him love Him." It says BECAUSE he loved Me (God). You have to assume God MADE us love Him. The more logical answer is that God gave us faith to have the capacity to seek, choose and love God, and it's our choice whether we choose to act upon it or be hard hearted to it.

I just can't believe how pride blinds us to logic. Oh, let's not worry that life is made meaningless by this theory that God chooses and there's no free will. Because it makes way more sense that we're God's little play toys that He loves to cast into hell or force into love and heaven. Nice... I don't have time for your illogical rationality.

I'll say this one more time...I don't want to serve your God if He's just randomly saving people and randomly casting people into hell "for His good pleasure." You have fun with that view of God. I'll stick with the more logical, biblical view.

Here it is, just in case you didn't get this the first time: I'm done with this conversation.

Phillystang

11-09-2007, 04:40 PM

BrianC

11-09-2007, 05:32 PM

Explain the verse, forget the argument for the moment and just break down the verse. Is that fair to ask?

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Holy crap... You don't know when to quit do you? How many times do I have to disprove your view or show you the illogical nature of it? "I'm God and I have all wisdom, logic and the entire future and knowing all of man's hearts ahead of time, but when I choose my people, I'm going to completely disregard logic, wisdom and the fact that I know the hearts of men. Instead, I'm going to be completely random and take away free will completely and just cast people into hell as I please. I'm such a loving God, aren't I?"

You want your verse torn apart? I have already addressed this verse in one of my last posts! Now I know why you're not getting anything I'm saying...you're either not reading it or your attention span is about 5 seconds. Not sure which, but something's very wrong here.

Those who USE the faith given to them and CHOOSE to love God have ears to hear the truth. They do so because they choose to seek truth VIA their faith that God gave them. The other people who DO NOT know the Master's voice simply are not looking for the truth, and are choosing to block out the faith inside that makes them want to seek the Lord. They would rather seek selfish desires rather than what God desires of them. We've always had a simple choice...one sin: Either love God and obey Him, or don't love Him and rebel. It's that simple. The people that aren't Jesus' sheep and can't understand or hear His voice are those that are hardhearted toward the faith inside compelling them to seek the Lord. And because God knew that ahead of time about those people, He did not choose them.

Now, there is also the fact that God purposely blinded the Jews, in part, till the Gentiles come in full (something like that). So, those people Jesus was talking to were Jews, and most were purposely blinded to the truth so that God could shine His grace on the Gentiles instead. Yes, the Jews can be saved through the Old Covenant, even today. If they cannot be saved through loving the one true God because He promised it to them, then we cannot believe God's promises to us either. Make sense? So, those Jews were blinded to the Messiah for a good reason and they left. If you want to apply this statement to all men, not just Jews, it's a bit out of context, but I can definitely see how Jesus may have been applying this to all men. And in that case, I answered that at the beginning of this post.

I mean it, now...I'm really done with this conversation. Leave it be.

Phillystang

11-09-2007, 06:37 PM

no need to be so angry...

... and I am sad to see that you could not break down the grammatical order of the sentence but instead rant and rave...

BrianC

11-10-2007, 09:15 AM

no need to be so angry...

... and I am sad to see that you could not break down the grammatical order of the sentence but instead rant and rave...

I'm not angry. I'm tired of repeating myself, and tired of talking to a brick wall on this subject. Tired of the lack of logic. Tired of the constant necessity of adding to verses to make your point instead of just going on what the verse says. I'm done. I can discuss stuff with someone that considers logic. But I can't discuss a subject where the person refuses to look at logic and instead just throws it right out the window. Sorry...not going there. Not having this discussion with you anymore. Other subjects are fine, but this one's done. There's no point in it.

Phillystang

11-10-2007, 01:15 PM

shrp88lx's

11-10-2007, 01:46 PM

Understood, this is for anyone else besides BrianC.

What is your interpretation of this verse

Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?

John 10:25-27

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.we become sheep when we choose to believe, clearly he is answering the Jews quesion to whether or not he was the messiah vs 24, they were not his sheep because they did not believe even though he had done the miracles in front of them( the purpose of miracles). they choose not to believe and thus were not his "sheep". as to why they dont believe it isnt said, trying to impune anything after that is pure speculation.

Phillystang

11-10-2007, 02:39 PM

we become sheep when we choose to believe, clearly he is answering the Jews quesion to whether or not he was the messiah vs 24, they were not his sheep because they did not believe even though he had done the miracles in front of them( the purpose of miracles). they choose not to believe and thus were not his "sheep". as to why they dont believe it isnt said, trying to impune anything after that is pure speculation.
for what you said to work,
this sentence... 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep

would need to read... 26but you are not my sheep because you do not believe

it doesn't say that (the latter) and so I cannot logically accept your interpretation.
I submit that it does answer why they don' believe: "you do not believe because you are not my sheep"

shrp88lx's

11-10-2007, 02:57 PM

for what you said to work,
this sentence... 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep

would need to read... 26but you are not my sheep because you do not believe

it doesn't say that (the latter) and so I cannot logically accept your interpretation.
I submit that it does answer why they don' believe: "you do not believe because you are not my sheep"
i would submit that both say the same thing. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT..vs 24 its very important for the interpretation of the next verses 25 is attached to 26 by the "BUT" in vs 26 and 25 is a continuation of vs 24. a verses break is not a sentence break. I will try and find a translation from the original text, what translation are you quoting from.

i will also compare other text were followers are refered to as "sheep"

What point are you trying to make from this verses?? so I understand completely your position....predestination???

Phillystang

11-10-2007, 03:35 PM

i would submit that both say the same thing. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT..vs 24 its very important for the interpretation of the next verses 25 is attached to 26 by the "BUT" in vs 26 and 25 is a continuation of vs 24. a verses break is not a sentence break. I will try and find a translation from the original text, what translation are you quoting from.

i will also compare other text were followers are refered to as "sheep"

What point are you trying to make from this verses?? so I understand completely your position....predestination???
from post #11

Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?

shrp88lx's

11-10-2007, 03:38 PM

from post #11you ask it like a question but clearly have a view....which I am interpreting as predestination??

Phillystang

11-10-2007, 04:59 PM

you ask it like a question but clearly have a view....which I am interpreting as predestination??

Are you implying that that is a foreign concept or something that I made up?

1. Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

2. Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

3. Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

4. Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Duncan

11-10-2007, 05:01 PM

Holy crap... You don't know when to quit do you? How many times do I have to disprove your view or show you the illogical nature of it? "I'm God and I have all wisdom, logic and the entire future and knowing all of man's hearts ahead of time, but when I choose my people, I'm going to completely disregard logic, wisdom and the fact that I know the hearts of men. Instead, I'm going to be completely random and take away free will completely and just cast people into hell as I please. I'm such a loving God, aren't I?"

You want your verse torn apart? I have already addressed this verse in one of my last posts! Now I know why you're not getting anything I'm saying...you're either not reading it or your attention span is about 5 seconds. Not sure which, but something's very wrong here.

Those who USE the faith given to them and CHOOSE to love God have ears to hear the truth. They do so because they choose to seek truth VIA their faith that God gave them. The other people who DO NOT know the Master's voice simply are not looking for the truth, and are choosing to block out the faith inside that makes them want to seek the Lord. They would rather seek selfish desires rather than what God desires of them. We've always had a simple choice...one sin: Either love God and obey Him, or don't love Him and rebel. It's that simple. The people that aren't Jesus' sheep and can't understand or hear His voice are those that are hardhearted toward the faith inside compelling them to seek the Lord. And because God knew that ahead of time about those people, He did not choose them.

Now, there is also the fact that God purposely blinded the Jews, in part, till the Gentiles come in full (something like that). So, those people Jesus was talking to were Jews, and most were purposely blinded to the truth so that God could shine His grace on the Gentiles instead. Yes, the Jews can be saved through the Old Covenant, even today. If they cannot be saved through loving the one true God because He promised it to them, then we cannot believe God's promises to us either. Make sense? So, those Jews were blinded to the Messiah for a good reason and they left. If you want to apply this statement to all men, not just Jews, it's a bit out of context, but I can definitely see how Jesus may have been applying this to all men. And in that case, I answered that at the beginning of this post.

I mean it, now...I'm really done with this conversation. Leave it be.

Wow, religion is just full of love isnt it.....

shrp88lx's

11-10-2007, 07:45 PM

BrianC

11-11-2007, 06:25 AM

Wow, religion is just full of love isnt it.....

Religion is full of prideful people, which is exactly why I don't care for religion. Spirituality (a relationship with the Lord) is great, but religious rules and traditions that have been passed down from man to man, I care nothing for. I want truth...not someone else's opinion on something. I love hearing opinions and seeing if they agree with the Bible. But men are fallible and you find a TON of fallible opinions out there. I love to discover truth and share it with others. I can't stand talking to brick walls of pride, though. Because they are self-absorbed with pride and just want to be right. I couldn't care less about being right. I just want to know the truth.

BrianC

11-11-2007, 07:09 AM

Are you implying that that is a foreign concept or something that I made up?

1. Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

2. Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

3. Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

4. Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

I can't believe I'm responding to you, but I seem to have forgotten to share the very basis of where the Bible teaches free will and why God has to allow us to choose...

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Mankind has complete, 100% DOMINION over the earth and everything on it. Do you know what dominion means? Let's see what the dictionary says:

Dominion
1. the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.
2. rule; control; domination.
3. a territory, usually of considerable size, in which a single rulership holds sway.
4. lands or domains subject to sovereignty or control.

MANKIND has sovereign control over the earth and everything on it. If you haven't noticed, mankind is on the earth, and we have complete control over ourselves too! We are sovereign!! Sovereignty means free will with no one else controlling you. God does not control us, nor has He ever from the beginning of the creation!

When we had a perfect nature free of sin in the beginning, we were ruling the earth with a nature of good. When Satan lied to us and we bought it, we corrupted ourselves and the entire earth and everything in it with sin. Your leader says everything about you. Since we were the leader of everything on earth and earth itself, our sin went through us and into everything else. ALL of the earth was corrupted by sin. And every person born after Adam and Eve was born into the sin nature as well. We ruled the earth with the sin nature. Satan's nature is the sin nature. Notice the wording Satan uses in this verse:

Luke 4:6
And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

HANDED OVER to Satan. HANDED. How? Through the sin nature. We rule the earth through Satan's sin nature now. Before Jesus, the Jews were the saints of the Old Testament. David said that he knew his Savior and Redeemer as well as Job, and Job's the first book of the Bible ever put down on paper, probably within the first 400 years after the flood. Even Job knew he had a Redeemer in heaven.

The one way to be saved has always been to obey God. The one way to be condemned has always been to rebel against God (blaspheme the gift of the Holy Spirit). We're told the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance to come. We're told that David had the Holy Spirit come on him at a fairly young age when Samuel prophesied that David would be king. You and David are not dissimilar. You both have the Holy Spirit. You both know you have a Redeemer. David was sanctified by God without knowing Jesus, but understood that part of God was the savior. He may or may not have known Jesus' name, because Jesus' name in Hebrew is Yeshuwah, which means salvation from God, or God's salvation or "My (God's) salvation." We see Yeshuwah (Strong's #3444) all throughout the Psalms and other Old Testament books. You'd be surprized how you can swap out "my salvation" for Jesus' name and it works perfectly. So, we're not entirely sure if David did or didn't know who Jesus was. But we do know this...he had salvation before the cross, and he always had dominion over the earth as a man.

Jesus didn't JUST come to die for our sins. Jesus came to get control of the earth. Jesus came as a sinless man, and free of sin, he would've lived forever, because we're told sin causes death. But Satan had to get the king off the earth. So Satan kills Jesus, which violated the law of sin and death. This gave Jesus full ownership of all things on heaven and earth:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

So, the question is this: We know we had free will (dominion) in the physical realm to begin with, but when Jesus died and became the ultimate authority over all things, did He suddenly take away our free will and start forcing us to be saved? But I thought God never changed? Did He change His mind about free will and how to be saved?

Ahhhhh...but wait. Jesus is ruling in His heavenly kingdom right now, and has appointed a time for His return to the physical world to take control again. But that time has not yet come.

Revelation 11:15
[ The Seventh Trumpet--Christ's Reign Foreseen ] Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

Notice the wording: HAS BECOME the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ. Has become implies that it is not yet His kingdom. In other words, it's our kingdom still. He's still allowing us dominion (free will) to rule the earth as we please. Besides, I wouldn't blame this horrible world on Him anyway. Obviously, He's not ruling yet. Sure, He works behind the scenes in the spiritual realm and even sometimes when people pray, He will work in the physical realm. But He is working at our request, because we still have dominion. When we become Christians we are GIVEN Christ's authority over all things. But Christ Himself isn't ruling yet.

Christ is patient and wants to give everything time to come to Him. That's why He chose not to take control over the earth for another 2,000+ years after He died.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

James 5:7,8
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

We have to strengthen our hearts, because sinful man still rules this earth. And sinful men are against us which have a nature contrary to the sin nature. Satan wants to seduce us with the ways of the world to appeal to our sin nature. But that's not who we really are, now. But he sure wants us to believe and operate under that deception, though.

Free will has been present since the beginning according to Genesis 1:26. You can deny the Bible all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that God made this earth and gave it to us fully and completely. We own the physical realm, period, end of story. I'm not willing to just throw out what the Bible says in order to be "right" about my view. I'll stick with the truth of what it says, and it says we have dominion (free will) over the earth.

HORSPLA

11-11-2007, 10:47 AM

BrianC

11-11-2007, 12:56 PM

It sounds like you have made up your mind on this point. Are you simply baiting traps for others?

You've come to the same conclusion I have. Philly doesn't want to listen to anyone else or consider that he's wrong. He's simply made up his mind and if someone doesn't agree with him, well, by golly, they better!! lol

I've disproven his theory on multiple grounds so far, and shown how it defeats the whole purpose of life and turns God into a God who delights in casting people into hell for no apparent reason and how the Bible disagrees in at least two places, yet he cannot seem to get past his own supreme intelligence and logic on this matter.

No offense with the supreme intelligence and logic remark, Philly. More of a joke than anything. I've never met someone more intent on forcing other people to believe what they believe, regardless of the arguments presented or how illogical their belief is. Well, I take that back; I've met a Jehovah's Witness that was the same way.

Phillystang

11-11-2007, 01:32 PM

It sounds like you have made up your mind on this point. Are you simply baiting traps for others?
Yes, my mind has been made up based on the Scriptures and not on feelings. There is no trap, what does the verse say? What is the cause and effect?

Phillystang

11-11-2007, 01:44 PM

You've come to the same conclusion I have. Philly doesn't want to listen to anyone else or consider that he's wrong. He's simply made up his mind and if someone doesn't agree with him, well, by golly, they better!! lol
You may be blind to see that the same could be said of your position. Show me once where you gave any credibility to any other position than your own? Could it not be said that you have made up your mind on the issue as well? But I am the bad guy here who is prideful? :confused:

I've disproven his theory on multiple grounds so far
Out of context and misinterpreted Scriptures is hardly grounds for celebrating the debunking of my "theory". Guess what, it is not my theory. It is the basic doctrines of the Reformation and the doctrines taught during the Great Awakening and the many great revivals and moves of God in the past 300 years.

and shown how it defeats the whole purpose of life and turns God into a God who delights in casting people into hell for no apparent reasonNo apparent reason? What is the wages of sin Brian?

and how the Bible disagrees in at least two places, yet he cannot seem to get past his own supreme intelligence and logic on this matter.
You fail to see that this sentence can be returned back towards you... Where have you given credibility to any position other than your own?

No offense with the supreme intelligence and logic remark, Philly. More of a joke than anything. I've never met someone more intent on forcing other people to believe what they believe, regardless of the arguments presented or how illogical their belief is. Well, I take that back; I've met a Jehovah's Witness that was the same way. Forcing? Over a web forum? Where is my forcing or threats? Your posts contained the rants and raving that caused Duncan to question your love. If anything, my hope has been to shine the light of Scriptures on the doctrines of grace that most 'Christians' misunderstand and hate, which is evident in your posts.

Phillystang

11-11-2007, 01:51 PM

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

I am glad you used that verse, I saw a video just yesterday on youtube about it. You are a sensible person, give it a watch.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI

Phillystang

11-11-2007, 01:55 PM

I can't stand talking to brick walls of pride, though. Because they are self-absorbed with pride and just want to be right. I couldn't care less about being right. I just want to know the truth.

Have you not held your position and I have held mine? But you are the humble person and I am prideful? :confused:

shrp88lx's

11-11-2007, 01:59 PM

i would dare to say that no one is here to change their views, we are simply enjoying some theological debating. Only sitting together could any real discussion take place. No 1 verse proves anything without others, if the verses appear to be contradictory then someone has interpreted them wrong, the Bible/ God is not going to send us into confusion we do that on our own.

Matthew 7:14 NAS
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life , and there are few who find it.

HORSPLA

11-11-2007, 06:16 PM

Yes, my mind has been made up based on the Scriptures and not on feelings. There is no trap, what does the verse say? What is the cause and effect?

OK, so your mind has been made up. Then why ask the following question if you aren't really looking for an answer?
Understood, this is for anyone else besides BrianC.

What is your interpretation of this verse

Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?

John 10:25-27

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

BrianC gives you an answer and you snipe him like you are trying to make some point. What kind of game is this?

BlackSnake1996

11-11-2007, 07:33 PM

Here it is in the NIV. Maybe it helps ya understand a little better.

19At these words the Jews were again divided. 20Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"

21But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

The Unbelief of the Jews
22Then came the Feast of Dedication[a] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
[B] 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Phillystang

11-11-2007, 07:41 PM

OK, so your mind has been made up. Then why ask the following question if you aren't really looking for an answer?

As a proof for my point of view and to show that the verse would need to read otherwise for his 'theory' to work.

BrianC gives you an answer and you snipe him like you are trying to make some point. What kind of game is this?

His answer wasn't an honest breakdown of the cause/effect of the sentence that I was hoping for but rather another chance for him to say that man has free will even though the many texts say otherwise.

It clearly states that it is not man's will or efforts but rather on God who has mercy.

Romans 9:1616So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

BlackSnake1996

11-11-2007, 07:42 PM

Phillystang

11-11-2007, 08:01 PM

Those who are not sheep do not believe, because they are not sheep.
At first that statement sounds like double talk, but that’s essentially what the Lord told the unbelieving Jews in verse 26: “You do not believe because you are not My sheep.” Here we have an indication of the sovereignty of God in calling an individual to salvation. We’re saved because God chose us.

amen!

Of course the Bible also teaches that every individual is responsible to respond to God’s call and come to Him for salvation. God sovereignly chooses us, but we have a responsibility to choose God. Both points are true, and they are not contradictory truths. The Bible does not say in one passage that God sovereignly chooses us, and in another passage that God does not choose us. It doesn’t say in one Scripture that people are responsible to respond to God, and in another Scripture that people are not responsible to respond. These would be contradictions. The Bible teaches that God sovereignly chooses the saved and also teaches that people are responsible to choose to be saved. How these truths harmonize is beyond our finite human comprehension, but the two truths do not contradict one another.

I would agree that people are responsible to respond to God under the preaching of the Gospel and would add that no one would respond in true faith unless God first acted upon the hearts of the sinners in regeneration.

The Old Testament has many great pictures of the conversion that God would do in the future.

Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

BlackSnake1996

11-11-2007, 08:07 PM

amen!

I would agree that people are responsible to respond to God under the preaching of the Gospel and would add that no one would respond in true faith unless God first acted upon the hearts of the sinners in regeneration.

The Old Testament has many great pictures of the conversion that God would do in the future.

Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
That has always been my understanding. But there is also a passage somewhere that states that everyman will have the chance to except him.
I'mm too tired to find it right now, but I'm sure you can do a little search and find it.

HORSPLA

11-11-2007, 08:43 PM

As a proof for my point of view and to show that the verse would need to read otherwise for his 'theory' to work.

His answer wasn't an honest breakdown of the cause/effect of the sentence that I was hoping for but rather another chance for him to say that man has free will even though the many texts say otherwise.

It clearly states that it is not man's will or efforts but rather on God who has mercy.

Romans 9:1616So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

I don't agree with your interpretations...and your approach seems a little gamey to me.

BrianC

11-11-2007, 11:34 PM

Have you not held your position and I have held mine? But you are the humble person and I am prideful? :confused:

I've said MULTIPLE times that I'm not going to claim that I'm 100% correct, because that's arrogant and prideful. I also said that I'm willing to simply let it go by saying that we both simply have different interpretations. Yes, I'm being very humble in that I'm not forcing my view down your throat. I'm simply stated my case and the Bible agrees with it in my opinion. In your opinion, you are correct and you believe the Bible agrees with you as well. Therefore, let it go! But you have refused to let it go time and time again... Yes, I'm humble here. I didn't debate you to change your mind. I debated you in order for you to present your case and me present mine. I've seen nothing from you that I haven't heard before and I've seen nothing convincing whatsoever. Therefore, I have no reason to believe in your view. It's pretty darn simple. But, like I said...you won't let it go. If I don't believe what you believe, you keep at it as if you have a mission to change my view. It's my view. It's my choice. That's that.

BrianC

11-11-2007, 11:43 PM

Forcing? Over a web forum? Where is my forcing or threats? Your posts contained the rants and raving that caused Duncan to question your love. If anything, my hope has been to shine the light of Scriptures on the doctrines of grace that most 'Christians' misunderstand and hate, which is evident in your posts.

What the heck?? Where I am "hating" grace doctrine?? Frustration with arrogance and pride is much different than hating. I don't hate you. Not even mad at you. I just can't believe how you won't quit. I've tried to end this conversation multiple times, and you keep going. That's called pride. When you HAVE to be right. I can't contend with pride. Can't do it. Not my job...

And don't you dare say that you're trying to "shine the light of scripture on the doctrines of "GRACE" that most Christians misunderstand and hate.

My posts show that God has given DOMINION (sovereign control, free will) to mankind. My posts show that God allows us to choose, and will not simply damn people at his pleasure. My view shows that God simply looked ahead into the future and into our hearts and knew who would choose Him, and therefore, chose them in advanced. The rest, whom He knew would never choose Him, were not chosen. My view gives purpose to life and fits the Bible.

Your view destroys the meaning of life and makes God out to be someone who chooses to toss people into hell. You said this:

No apparent reason? What is the wages of sin Brian?

So, what you're saying is that since mankind sinned in Adam, and we're all sinful, that God is just going to choose a few of us to save and toss the rest into hell, and God will give us know free will in the matter, right? That's exactly the view you're expressing. Does that sound like the grace message to you? Sorry...I want nothing to do with that God. Mine is much more loving and gives everyone a chance to choose Him, and He's smart enough to look ahead into the future and know who will and who won't choose Him, and He chooses the ones that will choose Him. It's that simple. You have fun with your God. I have no desire to believe in false doctrine.

Phillystang

11-11-2007, 11:45 PM

I've said MULTIPLE times that I'm not going to claim that I'm 100% correct, because that's arrogant and prideful. I also said that I'm willing to simply let it go by saying that we both simply have different interpretations. Yes, I'm being very humble in that I'm not forcing my view down your throat. I'm simply stated my case and the Bible agrees with it in my opinion. In your opinion, you are correct and you believe the Bible agrees with you as well. Therefore, let it go! But you have refused to let it go time and time again... Yes, I'm humble here. I didn't debate you to change your mind. I debated you in order for you to present your case and me present mine. I've seen nothing from you that I haven't heard before and I've seen nothing convincing whatsoever. Therefore, I have no reason to believe in your view. It's pretty darn simple. But, like I said...you won't let it go. If I don't believe what you believe, you keep at it as if you have a mission to change my view. It's my view. It's my choice. That's that.

That's why in post #11 I said

Understood, this is for anyone else besides BrianC.

BrianC

11-11-2007, 11:45 PM

Yes, my mind has been made up based on the Scriptures and not on feelings. There is no trap, what does the verse say? What is the cause and effect?

I love how you completely disregarded the fact that I showed where God gave man free will when He first created us. What...not gonna' comment on that?

Phillystang

11-12-2007, 12:09 AM

What the heck?? Where I am "hating" grace doctrine??

Do a google search under "doctrines of grace" BrianC and you will see that that is what you are disagreeing with and calling a false doctrine

Frustration with arrogance and pride is much different than hating. I don't hate you. Not even mad at you. I just can't believe how you won't quit. I've tried to end this conversation multiple times, and you keep going. That's called pride. When you HAVE to be right. I can't contend with pride. Can't do it. Not my job... In post #11 I said "this is for anyone else besides BrianC."

And what happened? You came back, right?

And don't you dare say that you're trying to "shine the light of scripture on the doctrines of "GRACE" that most Christians misunderstand and hate. once again, google it

My posts show that God has given DOMINION (sovereign control, free will) to mankind. My posts show that God allows us to choose, and will not simply damn people at his pleasure. My view shows that God simply looked ahead into the future and into our hearts and knew who would choose Him, and therefore, chose them in advanced. The rest, whom He knew would never choose Him, were not chosen. My view gives purpose to life and fits the Bible.
You're right, all the verses that speak of God's electing, choosing, preordaining, etc. are actually meaning something other than their normal definition. ;)

Your view destroys the meaning of life and makes God out to be someone who chooses to toss people into hell.

Romans 9
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

So, what you're saying is that since mankind sinned in Adam, and we're all sinful, that God is just going to choose a few of us to save and toss the rest into hell, and God will give us know free will in the matter, right? That's exactly the view you're expressing. Does that sound like the grace message to you?

Jeremiah 13
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.

Sorry...I want nothing to do with that God. Mine is much more loving and gives everyone a chance to choose Him, and He's smart enough to look ahead into the future and know who will and who won't choose Him, and He chooses the ones that will choose Him. It's that simple. You have fun with your God. I have no desire to believe in false doctrine.

Mark 13:20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Phillystang

11-12-2007, 01:00 AM

flashstang04

11-12-2007, 11:54 AM

GT Dan

11-12-2007, 02:50 PM

LMAO... Feel the love...

BlackSnake1996

11-12-2007, 07:19 PM

Having said all this...wouldnt you agree that all man will be called upon for salvation?

Susan n2o

11-13-2007, 05:39 AM

Having said all this...wouldnt you agree that all man will be called upon for salvation?
The bible does say that we must be drawn by God to Jesus in order for us to come to know Him.
John 6:44 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+6:44&version=31)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

BlackSnake1996

11-13-2007, 06:07 AM

BrianC

11-13-2007, 07:53 AM

Do a google search under "doctrines of grace" BrianC and you will see that that is what you are disagreeing with and calling a false doctrine

Yes, I know these doctrines and you know what? I don't take other people's "views" for granted. Instead, I trust the Lord to reveal the truth in His word. Only one of the five views expresses that God selects us on no merits, and it is in conflict with Psalm 91:14-16 and Genesis 1:26.

In post #11 I said "this is for anyone else besides BrianC."
And what happened? You came back, right?

You're right, all the verses that speak of God's electing, choosing, preordaining, etc. are actually meaning something other than their normal definition. ;)

Oh, come on. Man was given dominion over the earth and everything on it. Everything in the phyiscal except that which is outside of the earth. That would include ourselves. We chose to fall from grace in the beginning and we are ruling ourselves. I love how you just turn Bible verses right on their heads as if they mean completely the opposite of what they mean, or you completely disregard them altogether. Nice debate tactic. You're starting to sound like a democratic presidential candidate...kind of like Hillary; divert the questions!!

Romans 9
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Once again, this verse speaks NOTHING of how God made His choice. You are EXTREMELY good at using verses to argue a point that we're not even arguing! Because if we ever argued just my point and used verses to do so and logic, you'd lose everytime. You really just don't understand how your view breaks down all meaning of life and makes God fairly unreasonable and unloving. Yes, none of us deserve to be saved. But God knew that would happen ahead of time. He's not an idiot. He saw the future and chose us ahead of time. He did not force us to do anything, because we are given dominion (free will, soveriegn rule) over the earth and ourselves.

Why do you think Jesus had to come AS A MAN?? He had to gain the RIGHT to rule, but since He hadn't been born as a man and lived as a man and died as a man, he'd have no right to rule due to the law of dominion given to us at creation. Seriously, you really gotta' learn the big picture, because if you really saw how it all fit, you'd see how your view just destroys so much love in God and so much awesome design to everything. But you just can't get past your beliefs and doctrines which others convinced you of, and which you now hold. Common sense and logic in this one topic seems to evade you. I don't get it. But then again, it would seem like you would rather agree with others than to take an honest look at scripture...or you just can't wrap your mind around the fairly simple concept I'm producing here. Or it could simply be pride. I haven't a clue and don't really care.

I've showed you many ways how your view makes no sense and does not agree with scripture when you get down to the foundation of what's really at question here: how did God decide. Everytime you get to that point, it becomes illogical with your argument, so you keep arguing the level right above that, which is NOT what this is about.

Jeremiah 13
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.

Once again, this has nothing to do with HOW GOD MAD HIS CHOICE IN THE BEGINNING!! He looked ahead into the future. We know that much. He KNEW us before we knew Him. We know that for sure. He knew everything choice we'd make ahead of time and how our lives would go, or He wouldn't have been able to prophesy accurately. We know that for sure. He is loving and wise. True love is a choice. True love stems from faith. You have this absurd view that supposedly only the elect were given faith, so you can't get past the fact that we have the capacity to seek out and love and choose God with that faith originating with Him. Your argument just falls apart right there and does not agree with a few key verses. You take all of the awesome power and intelligence of God and you throw it right out the window and says, "Well, God just randomly chose people to be saved and randomly chose the rest to go to hell for His good pleasure." Once again...nice job. You've turned God into a fairly unloving God who hates sinners with a passion, but randomly chooses people to be His playtoy, because He's a big kid that just wants to have some friends in heaven, but everyone else...casualties that don't really matter. Sure, they'll burn in hell forever, but that's a small price to pay for Me to get what I want; friends in heaven. Sorry, but that's sounds like a whole lot of hogwash to me. As I said before, I want nothing to do with that God. My God's much more merciful and loving.

Mark 13:20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

You did not just quote another prophetic verse that has nothing to do with this conversation again did you?? Yes...you certainly did.

This verse speaks NOTHING of how God chose the elect! That's the argument! HOW DID HE CHOOSE? Stay on topic. We are discussing NOTHING else except HOW God made His choice. Nothing else. All of the other arguments have nothing to do with this debate. It's all about HOW God made His choice. Either He randomly chose to send a few to heaven and the rest to hell, or He gave us the capacity to choose Him, but left it up to us whether we wanted to act on it. That way, we, not Him, condemn ourselves.

If everyone believed the way you did, most people would just assume they're headed to hell and would go do horrific things till they were dead or locked up in jail. Your view would span quite a mass depression if the entire world believed it. The only happy people would be the ones that are pretty sure they're saved... But the ones who weren't sure if they were really saved or not would simply tremble in fear and wouldn't know what to do. My God isn't messed up like that...

BrianC

11-13-2007, 08:02 AM

This is a marvelous verse
Jeremiah 13
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.

A lost man can no more choose God than a leopard change its spots or a black man his skin color. What would it take for a leopard to change its spots or a black man his skin color? A work of God.

Once again, this is NOT the topic at hand. This speaks nothing of HOW GOD CHOOSES! God is simply expressing how the sin nature is present in all of us, and without the part of us (faith) that God gave all of us, we wouldn't even be able to choose Him. But again, this has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand, which again, leads me to believe, you don't know what we're trying to debate here.

Here is another verse for you to interpret Brian, once again, what is the grammatical order?

Acts 13:48

48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Once again, this speaks NOTHING of how God chooses! How God chooses is the question at hand, not that there are appointed people. The verse above does not say that a few of the gentiles were appointed. It doesn't say that all of them were appointed. It says that "ALL who were appointed for eternal life believed." Therefore, every one of the Gentiles that heard the message and were glad and honored the word of the Lord very likely are the same that were elect. And why were they elect?

Because God looked ahead, from the beginning, and saw this very situation and how it would happen. He knew that every one of those men, having faith which God put in them that gave them the capacity to believe and choose God, would choose Him. And seeing ahead, knowing they would choose Him out of the faith He put in their hearts, He chose them to be part of the elect. Where you believe that only the elect have faith put in their hearts, I believe everyone had faith put in their heart from birth, because the verse does not specify if it's talking about everyone or just Christians have been given a measure of faith. You're really good at making verses say what you want to with complete disregard for accurate grammar. So, you got your grammar broken down for you. Are you happy? My wife is the grammar nazi; I've learned a thing or two.

You gotta' learn to present just the facts without twisting everything to mean that you're correct. That's not the goal here. You are to lay out an argument, HONESTLY, without twisting anything, and then you let people decide for themselves. You seem to want to slant everything in your direction and make everyone agree with you. Why can't you just accept that someone else believes differently than you and they believe your view is illogical?

BrianC

11-13-2007, 08:04 AM

While I have personal opinions on this subject , I will not post here because of the turn this thread has taken.

So I put this forward to you both....

Agree that Christ is the only way to salvation.... (obviously you both do), and call it a day, and vow to work it out in Heaven.

I think we have given non believers enough ammo for one thread with the bickering, don't you?

I've tried to end this two threads ago, and Philly persists. He did, however, offer the question up to everyone else at post #11 in this thread, and I overlooked it or misread it. All I've been trying to get him to do is say, "We obviously have different views and disagree on this topic, and that's ok with me. We agree to disagree." But it would seem he can't accept that someone else doesn't agree with him. I'm a little stupid for continuing to argue the same point over and over again, though. I can't seem to get my point across as to what I'm arguing here, because we can't seem to stay on topic with "how did God choose?" Oh well...

Murph Tang

11-13-2007, 08:04 AM

Brian if you ever need a data entry job let me know! :)

resume normal programming.

BrianC

11-13-2007, 08:09 AM

Having said all this...wouldnt you agree that all man will be called upon for salvation?

The Bible says that many are called but few are chosen. If many means all, then sure. But the Bible's not clear. We're also told by Paul that all will see the creation and know that there must be a God so that no one is without excuse. That's not a traditional call to salvation, but would tend to imply that some may believe in God simply from the wonders of Creation through logical deduction. There is also a verse that says, "before the Law, sin was not imputed." So, that would mean that the people prior to the Mosaic Law weren't judged by the Law, because they didn't have sin laid out to them. Ignorance saved them. However, if they saw creation, then they should've known there was a God and could've chosen to seek and obey Him. There is yet another verse that talks about those that don't know God would be judged by their consciences. The subject of judgement is a very complicated subject, and due to all of the different statements on it, I couldn't even begin to imagine how God will judge those who have never heard of Jesus or God the Father before. I think God has a way to judge everyone appropriately (and Christians are told they will not be judged...but rather, will give an account of our deeds in order to be rewarded).

BrianC

11-13-2007, 08:20 AM

The bible does say that we must be drawn by God to Jesus in order for us to come to know Him.
John 6:44 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+6:44&version=31)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Well, we have a few things laid out for us in the New Testament that talk about this. There is a verse that says God gives everyone a measure of faith (it does not indicate if this means every man or just Christians). If everyone has faith, then everyone has the capacity, from God Himself, to seek, choose and love God. So, God's responsible for our faith, and therefore our salvation, first and foremost. Secondly, we're told that unless there is a call, the people would not respond and hear the truth. So, we are also told that God calls us as a necessity, or we wouldn't know we need to be saved. Thirdly, we are told that many are called but few are chosen. That would tend to mean that many (or all people) are called, but only a few choose to accept the gift of salvation via the faith given to them by God. Others become hard-hearted toward the faith and God and they do not choose Him.

My argument is that God looked ahead and saw those that would choose Him and that's how He chose them. Philly's view is that God only gave faith to the elect (which the Bible does not indicate specifically), and that God chose randomly to save people and randomly to damn people and they have no choice in the matter. Philly says there's no such thing as free will, more or less. Yet the Bible says God gave man dominion (free will) over the earth and everything in and on it. To me that sounds like a complete contradiction. To me, that answers the question, "Why did Jesus have to come to earth and die to save us from sins?" Why? Because God had to live a life just like a man, born a baby, grow up with the same conditions, had to be a man, then choose to die for our sins. Why? Because mankind has dominion over mankind and the earth. God (well, part of God, the Son) became man in order to gain dominion rights to the earth.

Jump to Revelation:

Rev 5:2-5
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
5and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."

Now this verse makes complete sense. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit were in heaven at this time, yet no one was found worthy to open the seals; Except God the Son, whom had become a man in order to gain dominion over the earth, because only a man can have dominion over the earth. The seals are events on the earth that have to take place which apparently infringe upon man's right to dominion. So, only a man could open the seals. Only Jesus had become man, and only He was worthy.

When you step back and look at the big picture, man's dominion and free will make perfect sense in the grand scheme of things. Everything fits together with free will and predestination working in harmony together. God choosing randomly destroys that.

BrianC

11-13-2007, 08:22 AM

Brian if you ever need a data entry job let me know! :)

resume normal programming.

LOL Actually, I'm looking for data entry telecommuting jobs online that I can do from home in my spare time when I'm not working to make a few extra bucks. My covert operations for you wear on my car and if I get a job suddenly, I have to end the operation for the day immediately. Sorry about that. The data entry from home works out well, though. :)

Murph Tang

11-13-2007, 08:31 AM

LOL Actually, I'm looking for data entry telecommuting jobs online that I can do from home in my spare time when I'm not working to make a few extra bucks. My covert operations for you wear on my car and if I get a job suddenly, I have to end the operation for the day immediately. Sorry about that. The data entry from home works out well, though. :)

oh I understand....no biggie.

If data entry job need references just have them click on this thread.

hahahahah just poking at ya.

flashstang04

11-13-2007, 09:26 AM

Well, we have a few things laid out for us in the New Testament that talk about this. There is a verse that says God gives everyone a measure of faith (it does not indicate if this means every man or just Christians). If everyone has faith, then everyone has the capacity, from God Himself, to seek, choose and love God. So, God's responsible for our faith, and therefore our salvation, first and foremost. Secondly, we're told that unless there is a call, the people would not respond and hear the truth. So, we are also told that God calls us as a necessity, or we wouldn't know we need to be saved. Thirdly, we are told that many are called but few are chosen. That would tend to mean that many (or all people) are called, but only a few choose to accept the gift of salvation via the faith given to them by God. Others become hard-hearted toward the faith and God and they do not choose Him.

My argument is that God looked ahead and saw those that would choose Him and that's how He chose them. Philly's view is that God only gave faith to the elect (which the Bible does not indicate specifically), and that God chose randomly to save people and randomly to damn people and they have no choice in the matter. Philly says there's no such thing as free will, more or less. Yet the Bible says God gave man dominion (free will) over the earth and everything in and on it. To me that sounds like a complete contradiction. To me, that answers the question, "Why did Jesus have to come to earth and die to save us from sins?" Why? Because God had to live a life just like a man, born a baby, grow up with the same conditions, had to be a man, then choose to die for our sins. Why? Because mankind has dominion over mankind and the earth. God (well, part of God, the Son) became man in order to gain dominion rights to the earth.

Jump to Revelation:

Rev 5:2-5
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
5and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."

Now this verse makes complete sense. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit were in heaven at this time, yet no one was found worthy to open the seals; Except God the Son, whom had become a man in order to gain dominion over the earth, because only a man can have dominion over the earth. The seals are events on the earth that have to take place which apparently infringe upon man's right to dominion. So, only a man could open the seals. Only Jesus had become man, and only He was worthy.

When you step back and look at the big picture, man's dominion and free will make perfect sense in the grand scheme of things. Everything fits together with free will and predestination working in harmony together. God choosing randomly destroys that.

I guess my thing is (and I am probably being short sighted), why is it that we say that God is all powerful and all knowing and everywhere, but we put limits on Him when we start to talk theology.

For instance, God knows everything, because he sees all time at the SAME time. So...... why is it that God being all powerful, cannot give us free will to choose or reject Him,AND still know who will choose him and who will not.

We know that it is true we have all been given a measure of faith.... If someone gives me something I then have the choice to keep it or reject it......my choice..

Another example, if a friend of mine offers me $100 for no reason, he knows what I am going to do, because of my personality and character. I will kindly refuse it. It was still my choice, although he knew (as much as any human can) that I would refuse.

That is only a human example..... God is infinite, so why is it that we can't understand that God's foreknowledge has no interference with our free will?

BrianC

11-13-2007, 01:20 PM

oh I understand....no biggie.

If data entry job need references just have them click on this thread.

hahahahah just poking at ya.

hahahahahaha You crack me up, Murph.

BrianC

11-13-2007, 01:42 PM

I guess my thing is (and I am probably being short sighted), why is it that we say that God is all powerful and all knowing and everywhere, but we put limits on Him when we start to talk theology.

For instance, God knows everything, because he sees all time at the SAME time. So...... why is it that God being all powerful, cannot give us free will to choose or reject Him,AND still know who will choose him and who will not.

We know that it is true we have all been given a measure of faith.... If someone gives me something I then have the choice to keep it or reject it......my choice..

Another example, if a friend of mine offers me $100 for no reason, he knows what I am going to do, because of my personality and character. I will kindly refuse it. It was still my choice, although he knew (as much as any human can) that I would refuse.

That is only a human example..... God is infinite, so why is it that we can't understand that God's foreknowledge has no interference with our free will?

Not sure if Philly just doesn't understand what I'm saying, or if he simply refuses to consider that he could be incorrect. I can see how someone could be missing the point by not understanding that the verses being quoted don't indicate how God chose, but I don't see how someone wouldn't get that by now... Oh well, no big deal.

Phillystang

11-13-2007, 06:37 PM

Not sure if Philly just doesn't understand what I'm saying,
I understand exactly what you are saying. I used to believe the exact same way that you do now.

or if he simply refuses to consider that he could be incorrect.
Let God's Word be true

I can see how someone could be missing the point by not understanding that the verses being quoted don't indicate how God chose,
Once again, according to the purpose of His will. It isn't exactly stated how or why for us that He chose some to be objects of mercy. That is like asking God why Israel? There is no detailed pragmatic answer.

You have falsely created either 2 options for God

A) His choosing is based on seeing into the future and seeing what men will choose

or

B) His choosing is random

What about the choice C, and D, and E and so on that God may have that you are unaware of, in other words, the hidden things of God that are merely stated as "according to His purpose"

Romans 8:28
[ More Than Conquerors ] And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

But if that is all you are portraying, A or B, then yes, from a human side A seems more intelligent. But you don't know all the factors, you don't know the mind of God. You merely have a hypothesis based upon an interpretation of a verse that is contradicted many times over. You have a false premise with only 2 options, one is made to look irrational and random and so your arguing point is made to look like the only plausible answer.

but I don't see how someone wouldn't get that by now... Oh well, no big deal.
I found this post in a different forum quite helpful dealing with God choosing based on Him seeing who would choose Him. Read it more than once.

That doesn't make sense at all. If God foreknows it, it's GOING to happen, thus no "action" even needs to take place, as in "predestinating" it. If God merely knows the future, 100%, then He has no control over said future, since intervening would've been "foreknown" as well, thus changing the original foreknowledge. Those who want God to be the great crystal-ball gazer rob him of ANY interaction with His own creation, and they don't even realize it.

FOREKNOW is a term of intimacy, people! It's not about prescience.

BlackSnake1996

11-13-2007, 06:40 PM

The Bible says that many are called but few are chosen. If many means all, then sure. But the Bible's not clear.
Not clear? :confused:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phillystang

11-13-2007, 07:34 PM

Not clear? :confused:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

See what you think about this Blacksnake1996

http://youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI

BlackSnake1996

11-13-2007, 07:47 PM

See what you think about this Blacksnake1996

http://youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI
Wow! I'll have to ask for some time on this one. Its very hard to argue with going to the original language from the King James version.

Fastback

11-13-2007, 09:07 PM

See what you think about this Blacksnake1996

http://youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI

I wish I had that logos software......sweet!

BrianC

11-14-2007, 07:06 AM

I understand exactly what you are saying. I used to believe the exact same way that you do now.

Then you just refuse to believe you can be wrong... and you can't see past your own interpretation...

Let God's Word be true

Oh, so what you're saying is that the Bible states how God makes His choice in the verses you've quoted, right? Well, let's keep reading your message below and see what you REALLY think, because you're about to contradict yourself.

Once again, according to the purpose of His will. It isn't exactly stated how or why for us that He chose some to be objects of mercy. That is like asking God why Israel? There is no detailed pragmatic answer.

Ahhhh...so you ADMIT that it's not stated in the Bible. But wait, you just said "Let God's Word be true." That would mean you believe the Bible DOES say how He chooses. Wow, your theory and beliefs are really getting mixed up now, but it gets better! Let's keep reading.

You have falsely created either 2 options for God

A) His choosing is based on seeing into the future and seeing what men will choose

or

B) His choosing is random

What about the choice C, and D, and E and so on that God may have that you are unaware of, in other words, the hidden things of God that are merely stated as "according to His purpose"

What about the fact that He gave us DOMINION (free will, soveriegn rule) of the earth, ourselves and everything on the earth?? Are you going to just skip over that VERY important verse at the very beginning of the Bible? Hmmmmm....

Romans 8:28
[ More Than Conquerors ] And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

But if that is all you are portraying, A or B, then yes, from a human side A seems more intelligent. But you don't know all the factors, you don't know the mind of God.

So you admit here that the Bible does not tell us HOW God chooses and that you ALSO do not have ALL of the factors and you also do not know the mind of God, right??

Therefore, you've just admitted that you and I can both be incorrect on our interpretation, correct?

You merely have a hypothesis based upon an interpretation of a verse that is contradicted many times over.

Ooooooohhhhhh.... So now the Bible contradicts itself too? Wow, I didn't know how incredibly twisted your doctrine was until now. Alright, here's the deal. You admitted that you believe the Bible is God's Word and God's Word is true, and therefore, this would tend to show that you believe God's Word DOES tell how God chooses. Then, you contradicted yourself by saying that the Bible does NOT tell how God chooses. You then say that the one verse I cite is contradicted by tons of other verses, which means the Bible contradicts itself (which, by the way, is not possible when you truly understand the big picture).

Here's the deal: NONE of the Bible verses you've cited say ANYTHING about HOW God chooses, and therefore, those verses are simply NOT admissible into this debate. Period. End of story. Why? Because this debate is about HOW God chooses and NOTHING else. So, we can throw out all of the verses you have been using to supposedly show HOW God chooses, because they simply don't indicate how, and you just admitted this above. And you said that man has no free will.

So, what are we left with? Well, you contradicted the Bible by saying that man has no free will when in Genesis 1:26 we are told blatantly that God gave us dominion (soveriegn rule, free will) over the earth, ourselves and everything on it. Then, the only verse in the entire Bible that says HOW God chooses, turns out to be Psalm 91:14-16 which says, "BECAUSE he loved Me, I will deliver him...I will show him my salvation." Key word there is "because." God looked ahead, knew exactly how He, God, would have an ability to interact with the world and each person, and knew exactly when to open up truth to the person's spirit (because God can certainly talk to our spirits and interact with them, because they're in the spiritual realm, not the physical realm. Why do you think God only purifies the spiritual man first and not the mind and body? Because we still rule over the physical realm. God can't change our bodies till we die or till He raptures us on the last day. He can only deal with things that are spiritual for now unless someone asks Him to interfere with the natural, because He still respects the fact that He gave us free will and sovereign rule over the physical realm.

But God CANNOT simply save our spirit without our concent, because it is OUR spirit and we do rule over it. It is not God's, because He gave it to us. If I build a house and I give it to someone and they sign the title, it is there house regardless of whether I build it or not, and I have no power over what happens to that house at that point. It's no longer mine.

So, we've established quite a few things from this post of yours. You believe the Bible contradicts itself when you're proven wrong. You contradict yourself in the same post. And you seem to be able to tell me that the Bible doesn't specify how God chooses and so I cannot know for sure, but you don't cite the fact that this means you also must be assuming your view as well and cannot know for sure. Gee....sounds like a double standard to me.

You debate it long enough and the truth comes out. :)

You have a false premise with only 2 options, one is made to look irrational and random and so your arguing point is made to look like the only plausible answer.

Because those are the most likely answers. God either gave us free will or He didn't. And we know He did in Genesis 1:26. But you have to be right, so we're going to completely disregard Genesis 1:26 where He gives us dominion/free will. And since you have to be right, we're going to also call Psalm 91:14-16 a contradiction of every other verse pertaining to election. Yeah...that sounds like a fun day at Bible doctrine school with the tyrant, I mean, head master Phillystang. :P

I found this post in a different forum quite helpful dealing with God choosing based on Him seeing who would choose Him. Read it more than once.

I read the quote multiple times. This guy does the same thing he accuses everyone else of doing. He puts limits on God. STRONG limits. He says people who think God knew the future and could change it contradict themselves because then God would have to interact with us, yet He cannot interact with His creation. He's jumbling together all kinds of doctrines here and screwing them up pretty badly. lol

This guy hasn't a clue what he's talking about. He's simply showing his inability to stick to one doctrine or learn the view appropriately and he's limiting God by saying that God can't look into the future already knowing how He, God, will interact with man to change the course of history.

He also doesn't even consider that God works most of the time through our spirit man, and our spirit man is in the spirit world where God rules. We may rule our spirit man, but God can still talk to our spirit man and tempt us in certain directions. God can ask people's spirit man to do things and they may agree to do so. God can come in person and speak to people in the flesh and ask them to do things, and they agree! Look at Moses! Heck yes, God can interact with His creation, but He does so with the cooperation of mankind. And if a man like Jonah agrees to enslave himself to the Lord and His purpose, then God's going to take liberty with that and make Jonah do what He wants, because Jonah gave up his right to total free will by choosing to serve the Lord as His prophet. Yet even so, God still had to put Jonah in a whale for three days to get him to change his mind. Free will is a VERY VERY powerful thing, and you've killed it by saying we have none. You just don't see the big picture and to what extents God can interact with the physical realm, and to what extent He is restricted because of His declaration of free will dominion to us. Only when you understand all of this can you really understand the perfect picture of how life works with God and how He orchestrates everything so perfectly.

The physical realm is not what really matters. It's the spiritual realm. If you control the spiritual realm, then you control the spiritual realm. This is why, in sin, mankind serves Satan. Satan controls the spiritual realm where men's spirits are born; the domain of darkness according to the Bible. And the world is run by the sin nature. God comes and interacts on that level with people through other people. Why would God need preachers and teachers if He, Himself could just save people instantly without their concent? Why preach the truth to them in order to convince them of the truth so they will cooperate and choose Christ? Why not just forget the whole grace message or any of that? Instead, let God just pick and choose who He wants to save and toss the rest into hell. If there's no free will, this is basically the reality we would live in. But you can't grasp that...

BrianC

11-14-2007, 07:09 AM

Not clear? :confused:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hey, I'm with you that everyone has a call from God somehow, someway. But I was just pointing out in the verse we were discussing concerning being called that it only says "Many are called, but few are chosen." That verse in and of itself is not clear. However, your verses definitely clarify that all are called. Therefore, that would also kill Phillystang's argument, I think. You'll have to check with him, though...

BrianC

11-14-2007, 07:18 AM

See what you think about this Blacksnake1996

http://youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI

First of all, this guy has made a mistake in the first minute.

Hey says that the "you" is indicating the "dear brothers." Well, why on earth would God say what he says about saved men (dear brothers)?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, why would any of the "dear brothers" perish?? If they're sanctified, then there is no chance they could perish. The guy completely contradicts his argument in nearly a minute flat.

I'll keep listening though...

BrianC

11-14-2007, 07:36 AM

See what you think about this Blacksnake1996

http://youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is incorrectly translated in every Bible, oddly enough. Here's the definition of "a day" (Hemera in Greek) in this verse:

Strong's No. G2520. hemera, hay-mer'-ah: feminine. (with G5610 implied) of a
der. of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes; fig. a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): age, + always, forever, judgment (day), time, while, years.

Hemera is translated time in 4 verses in the KJV, and 12 verses in the NASB. So time is a very acceptable translation. Is it possible that duration "X" is a thousand
years?

2 Peter 3:8 (retranslated)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that a time is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a time.

You can show Biblically that the Jews wrote in such a way that when they said something like "time, times" it means 1+1. So time, times & half a time means 1+1+1/2 = 2.5. 2.5 x 1,000 = 2,500 years.

If you look at both of the prophecies in Daniel 7:25 & 12:7 about time, times and half a time. They are both about the Jews being a nation and the temple mount under Gentile control. One prophecy starts in the year 552BC, and you add 2500 years to that and you get 1948, the year the Jews became a nation. The other starts in 533BC and if you add 2500 years to that, it ends on 1967, the year the temple mount and Jerusalem came back under Israeli control for the first time in thousands of years. And the prophecies speak as such. But I have just given a horrible explanation of this, so if you want to read more about this, go here and read the book for free online or print it out:

www.ellisskolfield.com (click on Books & Essays, then select The False Prophet Chapters 1-9 & 10-17).

Oh, and what's cool is that in Revelation the Christians are also given a time, times and the dividing of times prophecy for us. What's cool is that if you start from the time the 10 tribes (minus the other two tribes that split) of Israel (Ephraim - aka Israel) were taken captive by Assyria and dispersed into the nations of the world, never to be heard from again and you add 2500 years, you get an interesting date. 724BC is when they were dispersed into the nations by Assyria. 2500 years later is 1776AD, the year we became a nation. And we came from all nations.

Originally, God gave the Levites 48 cities in all the tribes, because the Levites were the tribe of preists. And those original 12 tribes of Israel had 13 tribes after the tribe of Joseph split into two tribes (Ephraim and Menasseh). The United States had 12 original colonies that split into 13, because the Carolina's were too big to govern, so we have North and South Carolina. From 1912-1959, our U.S. flag had 48 stars and 13 stripes representing the things spoken of above. Don't you find it interesting that our flag just happened to protray the 2 similarities our nation has with Israel's past? Pretty interesting, eh? :) In 1959 Hawaii and Alaska were added to the Union and so were their two stars. Just interesting facts. :)

BrianC

11-14-2007, 07:46 AM

I wish I had that logos software......sweet!

Just use this website for the Strong's definitions:

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Use the first field for the word you want to look up.

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 11:36 AM

First of all, this guy has made a mistake in the first minute.

Hey says that the "you" is indicating the "dear brothers." Well, why on earth would God say what he says about saved men (dear brothers)?

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, why would any of the "dear brothers" perish?? If they're sanctified, then there is no chance they could perish. The guy completely contradicts his argument in nearly a minute flat.

I'll keep listening though...
He is saying God is not willing that any of the brothers should perish. It is a statement of assurance and confidence for the believers.

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 11:46 AM

Hey, I'm with you that everyone has a call from God somehow, someway. But I was just pointing out in the verse we were discussing concerning being called that it only says "Many are called, but few are chosen." That verse in and of itself is not clear. However, your verses definitely clarify that all are called. Therefore, that would also kill Phillystang's argument, I think. You'll have to check with him, though...

I love you interpret that verse: "Many are called, but few choose God"
Once again you blatantly turn around the clear interpretation of the verse and the role of choosing goes from God to man.

That would tend to mean that many (or all people) are called, but only a few choose to accept the gift of salvation via the faith given to them by God.

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 12:12 PM

I have to drive out to school now Brian and I will get to the long post later.
I'll leave you with a couple verses for you to wrestle with:

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Appointed, what is your take on that? Why does God need to appoint in the first place if His appointment doesn't matter in your opinion but that it all depends on man's choice?

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Why does the Father have to give any to Jesus? Wouldn't they just choose Him of their free will?

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Is this not true of all believers?

1 Peter 2
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Did you choose to be born the first time Brian? Why is the new birth any different?

John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

BrianC

11-14-2007, 02:45 PM

He is saying God is not willing that any of the brothers should perish. It is a statement of assurance and confidence for the believers.

That's ridiculous. He would simply say, "No brother's will perish." That's reassurance. That has nothing to do with what He's saying here. This is God's expression of His will that EVERYONE be saved and non-perish. But because we have free will, He cannot control who does or does not perish. Sorry, but you're in denial now. lol

BrianC

11-14-2007, 03:10 PM

I have to drive out to school now Brian and I will get to the long post later.
I'll leave you with a couple verses for you to wrestle with:

Unlike you, I don't wrestle with verses. No need when they make perfect sense.

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Appointed, what is your take on that? Why does God need to appoint in the first place if His appointment doesn't matter in your opinion but that it all depends on man's choice?

We've discussed this before... First of all, this verse speaks NOTHING of how God chooses, which is the REAL question, and secondly, it doesn't tell you how many Gentiles were saved. ALL heard the message and were glad and honored the word of the Lord. How do you honor the word of the Lord? You obey it and accept Jesus. Therefore, since it doesn't tell us who all accepted Jesus, we assume that it is likely that all of them accepted Jesus. Nothing is specified here, and it really doesn't matter since this isn't the question being debated.

As for His appointment of us ahead of time, that's God showing us His infinite wisdom and knowledge at place... It is an awesome expression of His love and power, in that He knew us personally in the future before He created the earth, and He loved us then just like He loves us now. You ask what's the ponit of His appointment of us if it's all about man's choice? It shows that He KNEW us 6,000 years ago before creating anything, and loved us so much that He chose those that wanted to choose Him. He did it in advance to show His awesome power and love. He did it in spite of our sins. But if He loves us, then He would allow us to choose, and therefore, our choice is how He selects.

Explain this verse:

Psalm 91:14 "because he loved Me, I will deliver him."

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Why does the Father have to give any to Jesus? Wouldn't they just choose Him of their free will?

Because the Father is in a different position than Jesus. Jesus has a purpose, a function, and that is to save. The Father is the one that brings those to Jesus to be saved. The Father knows ahead of time who will choose Him, so ahead of time, He chooses them and knowing the future, predestines them to be saved by bringing them to Jesus. It's pretty simple, really.

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Is this not true of all believers?

Once again, it speaks nothing of HOW God chooses, and therefore is inadmissible in this debate. You just don't get what we're debating here, and I'm tired of having to pont that out.

We didn't choose Him, because without the faith that God put in all of us to give us the capacity to choose Him, we wouldn't have been able to choose Him. Without His call, we also would not have been able to choose Him. But after we have those two things and we choose Him, He sees that happen in the future from the foundations of the earth. At that point, He FIRST chooses you, knowing ahead of time, that you're going to choose Him. So, He says that we did not choose Him, but He chose us. That's exactly right. We didn't choose Him out of our own capacity as a sinner. We chose Him using His faith He gave us, and He chose us first, from the beginning of the creation knowing we'd choose Him.

Explain this verse:

Psalm 91:14 "because he loved Me, I will deliver him."

Get's old doesn't it?

1 Peter 2
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Did you choose to be born the first time Brian? Why is the new birth any different?

Again, this speaks NOTHING of HOW God chooses. No, I did not choose to be born the first time, the free will of my parents is what decided that I would be born. God did not make me be born the first time. And it is by the grace of God that I have the capacity in His faith to seek Him and be reborn through the Holy Spirit.

John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.
Once you are born of the spirit, you've given up your right to complete free will, because you've asked Jesus to use you for His purpose. Therefore, you never know what He has planned for you ahead of time. And we can refuse to obey even after we're saved, but God knew that ahead of time, and only planned the good works for you that you were going to agree to do. It's all pretty darn simple. But again, as I keep pointing out, it does NOT speak of HOW GOD CHOOSES! Please, will you argue the correct point??

How do you explain this verse?

Psalm 91:14 - "because he loved Me, I will deliver him."

Oh, look at that...I asked it again. Getting old yet? Still think the Bible contradicts itself? Wow, that's a solid belief right there.

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 03:54 PM

That's ridiculous. He would simply say, "No brother's will perish." That's reassurance. That has nothing to do with what He's saying here. This is God's expression of His will that EVERYONE be saved and non-perish. But because we have free will, He cannot control who does or does not perish. Sorry, but you're in denial now. lol
Once again the context is a letter to believers.

"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"

With 'you', who is 'you'?

"1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking."

The 'you' refers to 'dear friends' which are the elect

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect

It is near impossible to reason from the Scriptures with someone that takes verses out of their context

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 04:33 PM

Unlike you, I don't wrestle with verses. No need when they make perfect sense.

We've discussed this before... First of all, this verse speaks NOTHING of how God chooses, which is the REAL question, and secondly, it doesn't tell you how many Gentiles were saved. ALL heard the message and were glad and honored the word of the Lord. How do you honor the word of the Lord? You obey it and accept Jesus. Therefore, since it doesn't tell us who all accepted Jesus, we assume that it is likely that all of them accepted Jesus. Nothing is specified here, and it really doesn't matter since this isn't the question being debated.

You are blind to see that if God's choice is at the mercy of man's choice then God realy doesn't have a choice in who He saves.

Once again, we see why people don't believe. People don't believe because they are not sheep. You deny this though.

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

As for His appointment of us ahead of time, that's God showing us His infinite wisdom and knowledge at place... It is an awesome expression of His love and power, in that He knew us personally in the future before He created the earth, and He loved us then just like He loves us now. You ask what's the ponit of His appointment of us if it's all about man's choice? It shows that He KNEW us 6,000 years ago before creating anything, and loved us so much that He chose those that wanted to choose Him. He did it in advance to show His awesome power and love. He did it in spite of our sins. But if He loves us, then He would allow us to choose, and therefore, our choice is how He selects.
That makes no sense.
He would not need to choose those that wanted to choose Him because they were not physical beings yet. This is before their time. God is not bound by the limits of time.

Why do some not believe Brian?

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Explain this verse:

Psalm 91:14 "because he loved Me, I will deliver him."

Why do people love God Brian?
1 John 4:19
We love because he first loved us.

Once again, God is the first cause.

Your interpretaion would be:

"God loves us because He saw in the future who would love Him"

Because the Father is in a different position than Jesus. Jesus has a purpose, a function, and that is to save. The Father is the one that brings those to Jesus to be saved. The Father knows ahead of time who will choose Him, so ahead of time, He chooses them and knowing the future, predestines them to be saved by bringing them to Jesus. It's pretty simple, really.

Does God bring everyone to Jesus, simple question. Are all brought equally. Do jungle pygmies hear the Gospel from parrots in order to be saved? How do you explain those that have never heard the Gospel and God's desire that no one should perish? If they don't believe, they are condemned under God's wrath.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Once again, it speaks nothing of HOW God chooses, and therefore is inadmissible in this debate. You just don't get what we're debating here, and I'm tired of having to pont that out.

You are wrong about how God chooses because the Scriptures clearly states that it is not man that chooses God and that it doesn't matter about man's will, desire, or effort.

Romans 9:16

NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

NASB
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

God chooses according to his will and according to his eternal purposes

1 Corinthians 2:
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

Does a lost man seek God or does God seek lost men?

Romans 3
10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

We didn't choose Him, because without the faith that God put in all of us to give us the capacity to choose Him, we wouldn't have been able to choose Him. Without His call, we also would not have been able to choose Him. But after we have those two things and we choose Him, He sees that happen in the future from the foundations of the earth. At that point, He FIRST chooses you, knowing ahead of time, that you're going to choose Him. So, He says that we did not choose Him, but He chose us. That's exactly right. We didn't choose Him out of our own capacity as a sinner. We chose Him using His faith He gave us, and He chose us first, from the beginning of the creation knowing we'd choose Him.

Are all given the capacity? Do we control the new birth or God?

1 Peter 1:3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,

Explain this verse:

Psalm 91:14 "because he loved Me, I will deliver him."

Get's old doesn't it?

Again, this speaks NOTHING of HOW God chooses. No, I did not choose to be born the first time, the free will of my parents is what decided that I would be born. God did not make me be born the first time. And it is by the grace of God that I have the capacity in His faith to seek Him and be reborn through the Holy Spirit.

'God did not make me be born the first time.'

wrong Brian

Ecclesiastes 11:5
As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.

Isaiah 44:2
This is what the LORD says— he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

Once you are born of the spirit, you've given up your right to complete free will, because you've asked Jesus to use you for His purpose.
A lost person's will is not free, it is controlled by the power of Satan

Acts 26:17
I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Therefore, you never know what He has planned for you ahead of time. And we can refuse to obey even after we're saved, but God knew that ahead of time, and only planned the good works for you that you were going to agree to do. It's all pretty darn simple. What a gentleman God is to only plan works that we would agree to do, lol.

But again, as I keep pointing out, it does NOT speak of HOW GOD CHOOSES! Please, will you argue the correct point??
According to His purposes, read Ephesians

How do you explain this verse?

Psalm 91:14 - "because he loved Me, I will deliver him."
addressed already

Oh, look at that...I asked it again. Getting old yet? Still think the Bible contradicts itself? Wow, that's a solid belief right there.
The Bible doesn't contradict itself and I never said it did. It does however contradict your theories, so which will you stay with?

BlackSnake1996

11-14-2007, 07:37 PM

This is actually a great argument. :)

Fastback

11-14-2007, 07:54 PM

This is actually a great argument. :)

Great as in "huge" LOL

Brain_Mach1

11-14-2007, 08:08 PM

They both have The Truth and only the Catholic Church is wrong. :D

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 09:45 PM

They both have The Truth and only the Catholic Church is wrong. :D
From RC Sproul

"The right of private interpretation is a special privilege we have today that we may easily take for granted, forgetting that the privilege was won through the blood of our ancestors, many of whom paid for it through their lives, even as those who dared to translate the Bible into the common language of the people. And we ought to be encouraged by this privilege, to be diligent in our own personal study of Scripture. But although the interpretation of the Scriptures may be something you do independently, and do so in private, I hope you don't do it privately in the sense that you never bother to see how others who perhaps are more experienced and who are more learned in the things of God than you are, have dealt with the text.

That's why, for example, I am constantly reading the best teachers that God has given to the church to help me understand the Scriptures. Not because I believe those interpretors are infallible, but because I believe they can check my instincts where I may be inclined to distort the Bible.

So let us be careful in enjoying this privilege of private interpretation, but let us not be guilty of distortion."

Fastback

11-14-2007, 09:48 PM

Philly do I have you right? predestination and free will or are you solely predestination?

Brain_Mach1

11-14-2007, 10:00 PM

That's why, for example, I am constantly reading the best teachers that God has given to the church to help me understand the Scriptures. Not because I believe those interpretors are infallible, but because I believe they can check my instincts where I may be inclined to distort the Bible.

So let us be careful in enjoying this privilege of private interpretation, but let us not be guilty of distortion.
Do you check against the Church Fathers? You know, the people who were taught by the Apostles or taught by the Apostles' disciples? (You answered this in the past, so no need to respond to my lame jab)

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 10:27 PM

Philly do I have you right? predestination and free will or are you solely predestination?
I believe that our wills are free to the extent that they are free to act according to their nature. What is the nature of a lost man though? Lost men don't choose Jesus prior to a change of heart wrought in them by God through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Despite the outside appearance of people, the Bible sets forth clearly I believe that men are born radically depraved, haters of God, and have their hearts set on evil. Just look at the first 3 chapters of Romans, Paul sets forth a direct indictment on the human race.

For man to come to God I believe that God must first give him a new nature (to be born again is an act of God), for in their natural state men will not come to God.

For mercy to be mercy it must be up to God who has the authority and power to give it. If it is solely on the will of man that determines salvation then how is that mercy? God becomes removed from the picture of salvation in that case as He sits hoping men will choose Him. It is God's will that reigns supreme over man's will. He is creator. He is the potter, we are the clay. He turns the hearts of stone that hate Him to hearts of flesh.

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Romans 10:20
20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

How do God hating people that don't seek God find God unless God does a mighty work?

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 10:34 PM

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 10:36 PM

http://www.reformedreader.org/e&c.htm

"For God so loved the world that the 'whosoevers' will believe and will not perish."

Who are the "whosoevers"?
Answer:

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth. . .shall come. ..
John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me.

"Why is it that some do not believe?
Answer:

John 10:26 "But you believe not because you are not My sheep.

You see, the Father gave His Son a certain number of sheep and He has sent us out to preach and witness because that is the means He employs to call them.

John 17:2 "As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him."

They will come - because Christ died for them and Christ has prayed for them.

John 17:9 "I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given me: for they are thine.

Jesus prayed for the future sheep who would come.

John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word.
John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, Whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for thou lovest Me before the foundation of the world."

Why is God's electing love so important to the preacher and missionary? It is the doctrine that assures the success of our missionary efforts. The greatest preacher-evangelists in the history of the church believed in the biblical doctrine of Election. It is an important part of the doctrinal foundation of Calvinism.

Fastback

11-14-2007, 11:39 PM

cont'd

Does God's hardening interfere with their will?

Romans 11:7-8

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."

This is a really good point and perhaps one of the most compelling of your argument. I think the question here might even be:

If they don't have free will, how can God interfere with it? The fact that they have "free will" is evidenced by the fact that God had to interfere with it!

And who are we to say one can have free will but not the other. I mean it's up to God.

Pharoah is another example where God "hardened the heart".... I know he would have let the people go had God not hardened his heart. Otherwise, the hardening would not be necessary. God is supernatural and when he "interferes" with the natural is has effects kind of like time travel would have effects. In time travel they have a word for that, when you screw up the future, like go and kill your own mother before you have had a chance to be born...what is it called? A paradox or something? Well, I see why God keeps it down if you know what I mean.

Another thing, as far as predestination is concerned:

Have you ever "witnessed" to someone and the Spirit wasn't in it? The Holy Spirit has to do the work with that stuff. If He's not in it, it ain't happening. They have to be called or your's are works of the flesh. The gate is narrow is another thing.

Why did God make the gate narrow if He wanted "many" to find it?

Phillystang

11-14-2007, 11:46 PM

This is a really good point and perhaps one of the most compelling of your argument. I think the question here might even be:

If they don't have free will, how can God interfere with it? The fact that they have "free will" is evidenced by the fact that God had to interfere with it!

And who are we to say one can have free will but not the other. I mean it's up to God.

Pharoah is another example where God "hardened the heart".... I know he would have let the people go had God not hardened his heart. Otherwise, the hardening would not be necessary. God is supernatural and when he "interferes" with the natural is has effects kind of like time travel would have effects. In time travel they have a word for that, when you screw up the future, like go and kill your own mother before you have had a chance to be born...what is it called? A paradox or something? Well, I see why God keeps it down if you know what I mean.

Another thing, as far as predestination is concerned:

Have you ever "witnessed" to someone and the Spirit wasn't in it? The Holy Spirit has to do the work with that stuff. If He's not in it, it ain't happening. They have to be called or your's are works of the flesh. The gate is narrow is another thing.

Why did God make the gate narrow if He wanted "many" to find it?
good points, we must also ask why Jesus didn't pray for the world here?

John 17:9 "I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given me: for they are thine.

jones4stangs

11-28-2007, 07:02 PM

I must admit, I've sat here and read this entire post. Pretty lively debate ya'll got going. I'm certainly not one to figure out which one of you is correct.

I'm assuming you both represent different theological views. I'm sure neither of you originated either of them. I'd appreciate it if someone would give a formal title to this debate. Predestination vs. Freewill, Baptist vs ?, Calvinism vs. ? Something like that. Please provide some clarification so that I can read more on these subjects.

BrianC

12-04-2007, 02:48 PM

Once again the context is a letter to believers.

"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance"

With 'you', who is 'you'?

"1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking."

The 'you' refers to 'dear friends' which are the elect

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect

It is near impossible to reason from the Scriptures with someone that takes verses out of their context

My wife the Ph.D. student, and grammar Nazi, says your argument is about the most ridiculous English language argument she's ever heard. lol My wife is extremely well educated in grammar and the English language and writing. She could easily make a career of it, and basically, writing research papers, she will do so.

She says that your argument makes absolutely no sense, because it means that I could address a letter to a church, but I would never be allowed to speak about all of the world in that letter to the church, because I've screwed up right from the beginning by addressing the letter to the believers in the church. lol She agrees with me that your argument is absurd and makes no reasonable sense whatsoever. She, like I, see that this is just a ploy to "be right" about your doctrinal belief, just like the people you learned it from. Once again, I don't deal in pride.

And by the way, your argument that only believers get a measure of faith is still not addressing the issue at hand and can still be fit into my interpretation. God could've foresaw how everyone would use their faith had He given it to them, and therefore, knew who would choose Him with it. Knowing ahead of time who would choose Him, He decides only to give those faith which He knows will choose Him, because He sees that the other people having faith will make no difference in their choice since He knows they will not choose Him. Make sense? So, once again, another crushed argument.

If you'd just sit down for a little bit and stop letting this doctrine "think" for you, you'd see that by taking choice out of everything, it completely kills the meaning of life and the reason God did it this way, and it completely goes against Psalm 91 and against Genesis 1:26 where God gives us sovereign rule (free will). You even said that you accept that if one part of the Bible says something that contradicts 10 other verses, then that one part is wrong. Sorry, but there are no contradictions in the Bible, and since my view doesn't contradict anything in the Bible, mine is more correct. And once again, I'm done with this. No more replies from me...

Phillystang

12-04-2007, 06:04 PM

lol 15 days later...

And since your wife says you're right, that settles the issue ;) .

Phillystang

12-04-2007, 06:52 PM

Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Romans 3
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Acts 16:14
One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

John 10:26
but you do not believe [Why?] because you are not my sheep.

John 17:9 "I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given me: for they are thine.

Phillystang

12-05-2007, 02:15 AM

jones4stangs

12-05-2007, 10:35 AM

jones4stangs

12-05-2007, 10:36 AM

See what your wife says about this BrianC
Is this viewpoint accepted by anyone else? Is it limited to a few denominations?

Mr Majestyk

12-05-2007, 11:37 AM

God could've foresaw how everyone would use their faith had He given it to them, and therefore, knew who would choose Him with it. Knowing ahead of time who would choose Him, He decides only to give those faith which He knows will choose Him, because He sees that the other people having faith will make no difference in their choice since He knows they will not choose Him. Make sense?

Is this viewpoint accepted by anyone else? Is it limited to a few denominations? What does the Catholic Church say (they are usually pretty good at clearly stating their ideas)?

I don't buy into God giving man faith in Him, rather faith in God is a trait that is arrived at by free will after realizing He has offered His grace to all of mankind. Although He may know which individuals have or will have faith in Him, He does not dictate who those individuals shall be. As we were made in His image, each of us individually is also aware of whether those around us have such faith, and if they do not we may be called upon to extend to them the grace that He has given to us. Then they exercise their free will to join the faithful or not.

Phillystang

12-05-2007, 03:45 PM

Is this viewpoint accepted by anyone else? Is it limited to a few denominations?
It is the Reformed position, also known as calvinism. It is what the reformers believed which originally broke from the Catholic Church.

The other position is arminian, a view which was condemned at the Synot of Dort and is more of a Catholic view. Protestant churches have been largely reformed up until the last 100 years or so with the shift towards arminianism.

Brain_Mach1

12-06-2007, 08:17 AM

It is the Reformed position, also known as calvinism. It is what the reformers believed which originally broke from the Catholic Church.

The other position is arminian, a view which was condemned at the Synot of Dort and is more of a Catholic view. Protestant churches have been largely reformed up until the last 100 years or so with the shift towards arminianism.
The Catholic “view” is not doctrine. There is a Catholic view called Thomist (St. Thomas Aquinas) and a Catholic view called Molinist (Luis de Molina).

Leave Catholics out of your discussions since you are discussing two different Protestant views. Calvinism is common in Presbyterian, Reformed, and a few Baptist churches. Arminianism is common in Methodist, Pentecostal, and most Baptist churches.

BrianC

12-08-2007, 04:39 PM

See what your wife says about this BrianC

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I swear, I cannot get out of this discussion... You take your beliefs from mankind ALL you want. I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit showed me clearly apart from ANY argument that man has made. I came up with this 100% on my own when I asked God to show me the truth about this. I sought no one but God on this. You clearly sought mankind and they convinced you they were right. Good job for being a dupe. Well played!

R.C. Sproul is very good at making passages appear to mean what he thinks they mean, but like you, He is unable to address the actual question at hand. He does not address how God chooses, and he specifically screws up one point badly.

He says that God's choice is emphesized here. But what he fails to notice is that the passage was no where near specific as to how God made His choice. It says that it was for His purpose, yes...but it speaks nothing as to how He chose. Which again brings back the question of, "Did God choose BECAUSE He knew who would choose Him and who would not?" Just because Paul didn't explain this clearly, just like he doesn't explain how God chooses either, this doesn't mean that God choses and we have no say in it. This answers nothing, and R.C. Sproul ADMITS it in this explanation!

He says that the "flavor" of this passage "seems" to be crushing the foreknowledge view, because of what it leaves out. Because it doesn't specify the way God chooses. Anyone that doesn't know how to critically think will be persuaded by that argument. But anyone that thinks for themself and can reason logically can see clearly that R.C. is correct in saying this passage doesn't specify if God chooses over our choice, and this passage does not speak of how God chooses. Period.

However, once again, I'll show you the only verse I know of in the Bible that shows HOW God chooses. And this is not to negate that God first put faith in us and second put a call out there for us, meaning He's first and foremost responsible. This only shows the CAUSE of God's choice.

Psalm 91:14,16
14"Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
16"With a long life I will satisfy him
And let him see My salvation."

So, once again, we see here that the only passage in the Bible that speaks of HOW God chooses is right here, and it states, BECAUSE he has loved Me, I will deliver him and let him see My salvation.

And we know mankind has free will completely separate from God because of:

Genesis 1:26
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Domain means SOVEREIGN RULE, and sovereign rule means that you are the highest authority and power on the earth. That means FREE WILL.

Why do you think God always has to persuade His prophets to do things? Why do you think Satan has to tempt and persuade Eve? Because neither God nor Satan can make us do anything against our own will. So they must persuade us due to our free will, a rule God Himself set in place and cannot break due to His Holiness.

Why else do you think Jesus had to come AS A MAN in order to purchase us?? Because only a MAN can rule the world. But Jesus doesn't come back to rule the world for approximately 2,000 years in the time of the end in order to give time for the story of His sacrifice to spread among men and save many.

The seals were events that would happen on the earth, violating men's rights to free will, apparently, because in Rev 6, we see that no one is found worthy in heaven to open the seals...except Jesus, whom is a man and God. He is the ONLY one worthy.

The Bible fits together perfectly with the foreknowledge view and no verses contradict each other. But in your view, Psalm 91:14,16 contradict your view entirely, and Genesis 1:26 is a contradiction also. The only way to make the Bible agree 100% without contradition is through the foreknowledge view. Nothing else works. And you have got to be the most hardheaded, prideful person I've ever met. I tried like 2 months ago to "agree to disagree," yet you will not stop showing that you MUST be correct, period, and anything less is not acceptible. I mean really...what makes a person do that?

The ONLY reason I keep posting is because I don't want people fooled by your crafted arguments. I want them to see both sides of the story and that every one of your arguments can be refuted, and that you will continue to contradict the Bible.

I think I mentioned this, but did you know that Calvin wrote an entire 500 page book on how to torture and kill people and why it was justifiable since they were not chosen like the Calvinists were? Yeah, sounds to me that this is a guy I'd really like to listen to on Bible interpretation. You should listen to him more readily and go kill some unchosen people. :)

The absence of free will makes life pointless and God a mean, horrible, totalitarian God who tosses people in hell for no apparent reason except that is suits his purpose and He apparently enjoys this since He does it that way. Sorry, but there would be no need for the earth and life if there's no free will. You've just eliminated the meaning and purpose of life. That sounds like a great doctrine I'd love to jump right on. lol

Oh, and why proselatize if God picks? No reason to do that. May as well live your life the way you want and not worry about telling anyone about God, because God's going to get them saved no matter what happens anyway. You should just enjoy life and forget about everyone else, because apparently, you're chosen. Nice...

Phillystang

12-08-2007, 06:02 PM

And once again, I'm done with this. No more replies from me...
;)

Phillystang

12-08-2007, 06:21 PM

I swear, I cannot get out of this discussion... No need to get out, what's the hurry?

You take your beliefs from mankind ALL you want. On the contrary, it would be more typical for mankind in his humanity to accredit himself for choosing God despite God's revelation in the Scriptures that say in Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit showed me clearly apart from ANY argument that man has made. He speaks through His Word. I would be weary of people's outside revelations apart form the Scriptures, look at Josephs Smith's and The Watchtower's special revelations from God.

I came up with this 100% on my own when I asked God to show me the truth about this. I sought no one but God on this. I did the same for 6 months as I heavily looked into this praying for wisdom and truth. So did God give us two different answers?

You clearly sought mankind and they convinced you they were right. Good job for being a dupe. No need for assumptions and name calling.

Well played!
:cool:

Phillystang

12-08-2007, 06:24 PM

He says that God's choice is emphesized here. But what he fails to notice is that the passage was no where near specific as to how God made His choice. It says that it was for His purpose, yes...but it speaks nothing as to how He chose. Which again brings back the question of, "Did God choose BECAUSE He knew who would choose Him and who would not?" Just because Paul didn't explain this clearly, just like he doesn't explain how God chooses either, this doesn't mean that God choses and we have no say in it. This answers nothing, and R.C. Sproul ADMITS it in this explanation!

You must have been asleep when RC emphasized the fact that God made His decision prior to Jacob and Esau having done anything RIGHT or WRONG. It was not in response to anything He saw in them because it was determined while they were in their mother's womb so that God's purposes may stand.

Phillystang

12-08-2007, 06:32 PM

However, once again, I'll show you the only verse I know of in the Bible that shows HOW God chooses. And this is not to negate that God first put faith in us and second put a call out there for us, meaning He's first and foremost responsible. This only shows the CAUSE of God's choice.

Psalm 91:14,16
14"Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
16"With a long life I will satisfy him
And let him see My salvation."

1 John 4
19We love because he first loved us.

So, once again, we see here that the only passage in the Bible that speaks of HOW God chooses is right here, and it states, BECAUSE he has loved Me, I will deliver him and let him see My salvation.

And we know mankind has free will completely separate from God because of:

Genesis 1:26
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Domain means SOVEREIGN RULE, and sovereign rule means that you are the highest authority and power on the earth. That means FREE WILL.

Man does have dominion over the the lands and animals but salvation does not fit into those categories.

Jonah 2:9
But I, with a song of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good. Salvation comes from the LORD."

Would you argue that man is sovereign over God when it comes to salvation and Him having mercy on someone?

Phillystang

12-08-2007, 06:36 PM

The absence of free will makes life pointless and God a mean, horrible, totalitarian God who tosses people in hell for no apparent reason except that is suits his purpose and He apparently enjoys this since He does it that way. Sorry, but there would be no need for the earth and life if there's no free will. You've just eliminated the meaning and purpose of life. That sounds like a great doctrine I'd love to jump right on. lol

Have you ever came across this verse?

Proverbs 16:4
4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Phillystang

12-08-2007, 08:27 PM

Oh, and why proselatize if God picks? No reason to do that. May as well live your life the way you want and not worry about telling anyone about God, because God's going to get them saved no matter what happens anyway. You should just enjoy life and forget about everyone else, because apparently, you're chosen. Nice...
You misunderstand my position totally. We are to share the good news of the Gospel to everyone. That is the means God uses to call His people. To not do so would be to be disobedient to God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Matthew 28:19
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Phillystang

12-08-2007, 08:37 PM

BrianC

12-09-2007, 08:26 AM

You must have been asleep when RC emphasized the fact that God made His decision prior to Jacob and Esau having done anything RIGHT or WRONG. It was not in response to anything He saw in them because it was determined while they were in their mother's womb so that God's purposes may stand.

No, I was not asleep. RC said that this passage DOES NOT say one way or the other. He simply posed an argument that CONVINCED HIM to believe we have no choice in the matter. That's it. He made it clear, though, that this passage was not clear as to which view is correct. He pointed out that there was an absense of what needs to be said in order to define which view is correct, and because of the absense, one cannot know for certain, but that the passage SEEMS to indicate one view over the other. Seems and does are two different things. RC gave no proveable argument. You simply are hearing what you want to hear and choosing to believe that he made a solid, proveable argument, and he did no such thing and he admits that in the video. Again, I say, anyone that can't reason that out for themselves is going to be duped by the explanation he just gave. Good job.

And you just accused me of receiving a revelation from God that was incorrect, because you obviously received the TRUE revelation from God in the Bible on this stuff. Yeah, that's real mature and proves your point perfectly, I'd say.

I will never EVER trust blindly when someone says, "I prayed for wisdom and truth and God showed me the truth on this subject," because man is SOOOOO screwed up in how they listen to God or in understanding what He's saying.

For instance, one guy tells me God told Him via scripture in his heart, that pre-trib rapture was correct. Yet I can prove 100% that there is no seven year tribulation. So, the guy was duped by his own "gut feeling" thinking it was from God, and probably because he saw what he wanted to see. Man is so screwed up when it comes to listening to God. I know of only a few people whom God has spoken to in an audible voice or come to in person, and only one of those people on a regular basis to teach them. And all of them have the exact same description of Him which is not something you'd learn from the Bible. It's something only gotten from first hand experience. And what He has told them, or taught the one person over time, has always lined up 100% with the Bible.

Now, here's the other thing: If you were to tell me a fantastic story of Jesus coming to you and tell you the truth about this, I'd still doubt it, because we are told to test the spirits, because many false prophets have gone out into the world, and Jesus said many come in my name. Working with multiples, I've seen MANY false Jesuses that we've had to kill in the spiritual world. I didn't see them...the multiples see them in the spiritual world, and the water of life kills them, but doesn't hurt the real Jesus, of course. I know, it sounds weird, but if you'll read the book The Shining Man with Hurt Hands, it'll prove the case without doubt. I can back-up that book with my own chat logs too. Anyway, we're told in 1 John 4:1-3 that if a spirit says, "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" he is of God, but if he does not say it, he's of the spirit of antichrist (a demon).

The only way I know that the people who tell me about Jesus are for real is because they all have the same description of Him, and I ask God for confirmation through multiple stories/experience, and I see if it lines up with scripture. I would be highly skepticle that the Lord told you this, because what you say does not line up with scripture. If you're going off some gut feeling, I'd find a new gauge.

BrianC

12-09-2007, 08:27 AM

BrianC

12-09-2007, 08:33 AM

1 John 4
19We love because he first loved us.

Yes, God gave us faith first, but it is OUR choice to love Him or ignore that faith. OUR CHOICE. Notice how God's decision process is not mentioned in this scripture?? NONE of your scriptures tell HOW God chooses. NONE! You can't give one scripture that proves your position. Not one! I can give two that prove mine and in your view they contradict your beliefs an scripture. In my view, the Bible is in harmony with itself. Gee, wonder which one is correct. Look, I can't help that RC Sproul and Calvinists are dense on this subject. Guess they weren't cut out to be philosophers, but rather hyperanalytics. But he said flat out that this verse does not prove his position.

Man does have dominion over the the lands and animals but salvation does not fit into those categories.

Jonah 2:9
But I, with a song of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good. Salvation comes from the LORD."

Would you argue that man is sovereign over God when it comes to salvation and Him having mercy on someone?

Salvation comes from the Lord, but we are told to RECEIVE the GIFT of salvation. It's called a gift for a VERY good reason. I can walk up to you and give you a gift, but you can say, "No, I'm sorry, I cannot accept that." At that point, I cannot make you take that gift, bacause I cannot take away your free will and force you to do something. That verse says that mankind has sovereign rule (free will). Salvation DOES fit into that category, because our spirit man is OUR spirit man, not God's. It was given to US, and we have free will over everything that is OURS. God does not infringe upon that. Period. It's against His rules of dominion for us.

You still cannot explain WHY God has to persuade us to do things in your imaginary world which is absent of free will for salvation.

Man's free will is sovereign, yes. God does not infringe upon that. We have to CHOOSE to accept salvation. Again, this all comes down to what TRUE LOVE is and requires. TRUE love is a choice you must make and it cannot be forced upon you. God requires TRUE love in order to be saved. There are plenty of people who don't truly love God and THINK they are saved. They never made a sincere commitment to Him in their hearts, and therefore, they never really received salvation due to their lack of true love.

God IS love. Jesus said love is the one important thing by giving the two commandments. He said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and strenght, and love your neighbor as yourself" (very paraphrased). LOVE is the key. 1 Cor 13 says that love is the key to all things, basically, and it is all powerful.

Your view has taken love and trampled on it and turned God into an unloving God. He is the very apitimy of love. It is His very nature, and yet you take the key factor in true love away by saying there's no choice in the matter. You must CHOOSE to love someone. You don't just "fall" into love, because you must ALLOW yourself to "fall" into love. It's ALWAYS about choice. That's what true love is... a choice to put your love on someone. And when you put your love on God, your receive His gift of salvation freely. God requires true love through choice for salvation. It is not a work, but a choice. That's just the way it is. When choice is taken out of the mix, the purpose of life is gone (also another thing you cannot refute). There's no reason for us to be here if God simply picks and chooses who He wants to save and who He doesn't want to save. He should've just picked from the beginning and skipped all of this since He already knew. He's like a big kid playing a game with lives in your view. Sorry, but my God is all about true love and that requires a choice...

You need to learn some psychology and philosophy, because you are far too analytical on this stuff and have no ability to reason out to the foundation of how this all works on the choice level. If you are that blind to the truth of what taking choice away does to the purpose of mankind and life, you just don't have the capacity right now to argue this point whatsoever.

BrianC

12-09-2007, 08:50 AM

BrianC

12-09-2007, 08:53 AM

You misunderstand my position totally. We are to share the good news of the Gospel to everyone. That is the means God uses to call His people. To not do so would be to be disobedient to God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Matthew 28:19
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Once again, you show your inability to reason on the foundational level. When free will is taken out of the picture, there's no meaning to life whatsoever, so evangelism is pointless, because God is going to save whom He will save! So there doesn't need to be a call. There doesn't even need to be faith. God has ALREADY CHOSEN THEM! Does that not compute with you??

Sorry, but Calvinists are a perfect example of what it is to be superanalytical to the degree of which it blinds them to the foundational reasonings on a philosophical level and the implications thereof. It's an example of what pride does to people. It blocks you from the truth...because after all, you know best, because God apparently spoke to you or guided you, like He did with Joseph Smith. Nice job... Congratulations!

BrianC

12-09-2007, 09:01 AM

Phillystang

12-09-2007, 03:17 PM

because God apparently spoke to you or guided you, like He did with Joseph Smith. Nice job... Congratulations!

lol...

BrianC wrote:
"I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit showed me clearly apart from ANY argument that man has made. I came up with this 100% on my own when I asked God to show me the truth about this. I sought no one but God on this. You clearly sought mankind and they convinced you they were right. Good job for being a dupe. Well played!"

Phillystang

12-09-2007, 03:45 PM

I will never EVER trust blindly when someone says, "I prayed for wisdom and truth and God showed me the truth on this subject," because man is SOOOOO screwed up in how they listen to God or in understanding what He's saying.

and earlier your wrote

"I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit showed me clearly apart from ANY argument that man has made. I came up with this 100% on my own when I asked God to show me the truth about this. I sought no one but God on this."

Phillystang

12-09-2007, 03:56 PM

Your view has taken love and trampled on it and turned God into an unloving God. He is the very apitimy of love. It is His very nature, and yet you take the key factor in true love away by saying there's no choice in the matter. You must CHOOSE to love someone. You don't just "fall" into love, because you must ALLOW yourself to "fall" into love. It's ALWAYS about choice. That's what true love is... a choice to put your love on someone. And when you put your love on God, your receive His gift of salvation freely. God requires true love through choice for salvation. It is not a work, but a choice. That's just the way it is. When choice is taken out of the mix, the purpose of life is gone (also another thing you cannot refute). There's no reason for us to be here if God simply picks and chooses who He wants to save and who He doesn't want to save. He should've just picked from the beginning and skipped all of this since He already knew. He's like a big kid playing a game with lives in your view. Sorry, but my God is all about true love and that requires a choice...

Does it look like God is asking permission here to do these things?

Ezekiel 36
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness.

You need to learn some psychology and philosophy, because you are far too analytical on this stuff and have no ability to reason out to the foundation of how this all works on the choice level. If you are that blind to the truth of what taking choice away does to the purpose of mankind and life, you just don't have the capacity right now to argue this point whatsoever.
No need to study psychology and philosophy, the pagans rely on those things, I'll stick with what God's Word says...

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

If it was "chosen by the foreknowledge of their choice of Me", then it wouldn't be by grace. It would be by their right choice and not by God's grace.

Phillystang

12-09-2007, 03:59 PM

Why do some believe and some do not believe BrianC ?

Phillystang

12-09-2007, 04:06 PM

Once again, you show your inability to reason on the foundational level. When free will is taken out of the picture, there's no meaning to life whatsoever, so evangelism is pointless, because God is going to save whom He will save! So there doesn't need to be a call.
They are saved under the preaching of the Gospel by a supernatural work of God by which He grants them repentance and faith.

There doesn't even need to be faith. God has ALREADY CHOSEN THEM! Does that not compute with you?? Why does there not need to be faith? God says there does, so there does. Why fight against the way God says things should happen?

Sorry, but Calvinists are a perfect example of what it is to be superanalytical to the degree of which it blinds them to the foundational reasonings on a philosophical level and the implications thereof. It's an example of what pride does to people. It blocks you from the truth...because after all, you know best, because God apparently spoke to you or guided you, like He did with Joseph Smith. Nice job... Congratulations!
Pride? Proud of what? It is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

Your camp says, "I chose God, I was smarter than the other guy that didn't choose God. I made the right choice. Look at me."

Phillystang

12-09-2007, 04:07 PM

Mr Majestyk

12-09-2007, 08:22 PM

How can this verse be true if God is not in control of those He saves ???

Acts 2:47
praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

It is done through Providence. It is still up to the individual whether or not they accept Salvation.

BrianC

12-10-2007, 06:57 AM

lol...

BrianC wrote:
"I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit showed me clearly apart from ANY argument that man has made. I came up with this 100% on my own when I asked God to show me the truth about this. I sought no one but God on this. You clearly sought mankind and they convinced you they were right. Good job for being a dupe. Well played!"

I wasn't saying that BECAUSE I asked God and He showed me that I'm correct. What I was saying is that I didn't get this from mankind. I didn't even know anyone believed this when I figured it out. I just assumed others had come up with this doctrine too, but I never searched out the foreknowledge doctrine. Just like Paul said, no man is responsible for my knowledge of God.

BrianC

12-10-2007, 06:59 AM

and earlier your wrote

"I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit showed me clearly apart from ANY argument that man has made. I came up with this 100% on my own when I asked God to show me the truth about this. I sought no one but God on this."

Once again, you've showed your ability to take statements way out of context, and showed that you have little reading comprehension at times.

I was not saying that I was RIGHT because God showed me this. I was saying that no man can be credited with teaching me this, so this is not tainted by me trusting a man for my knowledge. It doesn't mean I can't be wrong, though. I never implied that I was 100% correct BECAUSE God showed me this. You really gotta' learn some reading comprehension man... You're good at taking things out of context.

BrianC

12-10-2007, 07:02 AM

Does it look like God is asking permission here to do these things?

Ezekiel 36
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness.

It sounds like God is prophesying about those that will choose Him and how He will treat them and what He will do for them when they choose Him. Pretty simple. Once again, learn some reading comprehension and stop trying to force every verse to say what you want it to.

Oh, and by the way, God warned Israel ahead of time what would happen if they were obstinant. They knew the penalty of their actions, yet they continued in their sin and that's why they were exiled. It's punishment. Has nothing to do with salvation or free will, though, except they had the power to stop it by doing what was right. God's not going to save people that don't want to follow Him or be saved... And you cannot prove otherwise anywhere in the Bible.

BrianC

12-10-2007, 07:10 AM

No need to study psychology and philosophy, the pagans rely on those things, I'll stick with what God's Word says...

Every apostle in the Bible was a philosopher on some level, because the Bible is the philosophy of life. You don't LEARN FROM the views of philosophers. You learn ABOUT philosophy and how it works and what its uses are. Comprehension man....comprehension... Stop assuming things and reading too far into stuff...

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

If it was "chosen by the foreknowledge of their choice of Me", then it wouldn't be by grace. It would be by their right choice and not by God's grace.

Holy crap... Do you even know what the original word "grace" means in Greek?? Go get a Strong's concordance, and do not look at all of the bogus definitions, because those are the ones that other Bible translations have screwed up. Look at the ORIGINAL GREEK TRANSLATION which can be found in either a REALLY old Strong's Reference and Concordance, or it can be found in an ancient Greek dictionary.

Grace means God teaches you His knowledge and wisdom. If you are under grace, you are under God's teaching and receiving His knowledge and wisdom and His way we should live our life. Grace doesn't exactly mean what everyone misinterprets it as (escape from judgement). It means that we are under God's teaching instead of under the Law. We were chosen by God's wisdom and knowledge is what that verse means. And His wisdom and knowledge include His foreknowledge of if we will chose Him, and the intelligent choice to choose those who will submit to Him. Only an idiot would chose people who would not submit to Him at all in order to get His purpose accomplished. Is your God an idiot? Cause it kind of sounds like your God chooses just anyone under the sun, regardless of whether they'll submit to Him or love Him at all. lol No offense, though...just making a point.

BrianC

12-10-2007, 07:12 AM

Why do some believe and some do not believe BrianC ?

Wow, have you not read a word I've said? I've explained this many times in these threads...

God gives everyone faith, which is the mechanism by which we know there is a God, seek Him out, choose Him and love Him. Apart from faith, we cannot achieve those things. And faith is the mechanism by which we're saved (aka - love and accept God and His gift of salvation).

Some people choose to be hard hearted toward the faith given to them, and others choose to be open to the faith given to them and seek God. It's that simple. Some hate God (I know...I've met them and they want nothing to do with Him, even on their death bed). It's all about choice and free will, which does not exist in your imaginary land of Calvinism doctrine.

BrianC

12-10-2007, 07:13 AM

Brian if you ever need a data entry job let me know! :)

resume normal programming.

Hahahahaha - Murphy, if I were doing data entry, how would I be your spy? ;)

BrianC

12-10-2007, 07:23 AM

They are saved under the preaching of the Gospel by a supernatural work of God by which He grants them repentance and faith.

OK, so what you're saying is this: God chose these people ahead of time, which means they WILL be saved, period. But God needs to send out a call for them to real them in? But I thought God predestined them no matter what to be saved? So why does God need to CALL someone so they can choose Him if He's already predestined that they will be saved apart from their choice? Why call? Why doesn't God Himself come to each and every one of them and just says, "Yo, I'm God. You can see me, so obviously you believe I'm real now. You're saved, by the way, and there's nothing you can do about it, so just live with it."???

Sorry, you make no sense...

Why does there not need to be faith? God says there does, so there does. Why fight against the way God says things should happen?

Why does God even need to give people faith when He's already chosen them to be saved? Faith shouldn't even be needed, because faith is something that effects choice. Faith tells you there is a God and you should seek Him. Salvation is by faith, but if God chooses people against their will, what's the use of faith? God can just make everyone believe however He wants apart from faith if He's already chosen them. Faith is not necessary in a world where choice is not necessary. Faith is what gives us the ears to hear when we hear the call. But wait, why's the call necessary??

This all makes sense in a world where free will reigns and persuasion is needed. None of it makes sense in your world of Calvinistic doctrine...

Pride? Proud of what? It is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God.

Your camp says, "I chose God, I was smarter than the other guy that didn't choose God. I made the right choice. Look at me."

Pride says, "I'm special, because God chose me for whatever reason and He didn't choose you." Free will says, "God knew I would choose Him because He put faith in me to believe and ears to hear and called me to Him. It was not of myself, but of the faith He put in me, and He is first responsible. He knew I would choose Him, so He first chose me out of His awesome power, wisdom and foreknowledge." There's no pride in that. We don't call others stupid. They just have chosen to be hardhearted toward God. That's all. That's their choice. They don't know any better. Or maybe they do, but I'm not judging them or looking down on them. It's their choice. Fair is fair.

You, on the other hand, say, "Others are not saved, and have no choice in the matter. I got picked somehow, and so I am of the chosen elite. I'm better than the world, and so I can take away people's free will to live since they are not chosen and I can kill them, because it won't matter anyway since they're not going to be saved." Maybe you don't believe that, but Calvin sure did, and killed many due to this faith. How the heck did he know who was saved and who wasn't?? He was a smart guy, but his pride led him into stupidity and illogical conclusions and doctrines.