Hagee taking defense of Israel too far

[Phillystang]

Some rather unorthodox claims
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[Brain_Mach1]

Give an honest listen, er, read. :D

[flashstang04]

"......so that even the very elect were deceived"


Seems he has went off the deep end.

[Phillystang]

"......so that even the very elect were deceived"


Seems he has went off the deep end.
did you mean...

Matthew 24
24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

[flashstang04]

I am afraid it is very possible.......Many will be led astray thinking they are on God's path. Look how many have so far.

[Denny]

Where was the unothodox claim? :confused:

[Fastback]

Where was the unothodox claim? :confused:

x2 :confused:

[Phillystang]

Where was the unothodox claim? :confused:
In the video clip John Hagee say his book In Defense Of Israel “will shake Christian theology.” And further that, “it Scripturally proves...that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah... It will prove...Jesus refused by word and deed to claim to be the Messiah...”

However, God the Holy Spirit informs us in John’s eyewitness deposition we call the Gospel of John – The woman said, “I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I Who speak to you am He” (John 4:25-26).

So whose testimony are you going to believe? Hagee or God. The Truth is that Dr. John MacArthur is correct when he says, “An individual Jew today is saved like anybody else is, by faith in Christ. And, apart from that, there is no salvation.”

[Fastback]

I see that this book has brought a lot of flack from readers. I have not read it, but there is evidence that one possibility is Hagee was referring to Jesus concealing His identity..."though hearing they do not hear" (ie from parables). Why did Jesus speak in parables, if not to conceal His identity? And the famous, "Why do you call Me good only the Father is good?" Jesus identity was concealed (supernaturally) from the Jews...God blinded their eyes. When He returns they will recognize Him.

[Denny]

In the video clip John Hagee say his book In Defense Of Israel “will shake Christian theology.” And further that, “it Scripturally proves...that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah... It will prove...Jesus refused by word and deed to claim to be the Messiah...”

However, God the Holy Spirit informs us in John’s eyewitness deposition we call the Gospel of John – The woman said, “I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I Who speak to you am He” (John 4:25-26).

So whose testimony are you going to believe? Hagee or God. The Truth is that Dr. John MacArthur is correct when he says, “An individual Jew today is saved like anybody else is, by faith in Christ. And, apart from that, there is no salvation.”
Jesus did not come to Earth to be the Messiah the Jews were looking for (ie: a great king/warrior that would destroy all their enemies). Jesus also told His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Messiah until AFTER He died on the cross and rose from the dead.

[Brain_Mach1]

In the video clip John Hagee say his book In Defense Of Israel “will shake Christian theology.” And further that, “it Scripturally proves...that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah... It will prove...Jesus refused by word and deed to claim to be the Messiah...”

However, God the Holy Spirit informs us in John’s eyewitness deposition we call the Gospel of John – The woman said, “I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I Who speak to you am He” (John 4:25-26).

So whose testimony are you going to believe? Hagee or God. The Truth is that Dr. John MacArthur is correct when he says, “An individual Jew today is saved like anybody else is, by faith in Christ. And, apart from that, there is no salvation.”

i have not reade the book and will not. I get the idea you have not read the book and will not.

Are you passing judgement on something you have not investigated for yourself?

You watched a commercial intended to stir emotion with the hope of you buying the book. Bravo for buying into the hype! Maybe others on here will buy the book now just like the drama behind the DaVinci Code.

[Denny]

Sunday's Dallas Morning News had a write-up on John Hagee. Some of you might like to read it. It was nothing new, unless you've never heard of him.

Also, I have a copy of Jerusalem Countdown, if anyone wants to read it. I think it's online in pdf format as well.

If anyone is interested in this, check out these sites:
www.jhm.org
www.cufi.org
www.aclj.org

[Denny]

http://www.revelations.org.za/Countdown.htm

[Phillystang]

Jesus did not come to Earth to be the Messiah the Jews were looking for (ie: a great king/warrior that would destroy all their enemies). Jesus also told His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Messiah until AFTER He died on the cross and rose from the dead.

He is still the Messiah prophecied in their Scriptures though. He does not deny to be the Messiah.

John 5:38-40
38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

John 1:40-42
40Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. 41The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ). 42And he brought him to Jesus.
Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter).

[Phillystang]

i have not reade the book and will not. I get the idea you have not read the book and will not.

Are you passing judgement on something you have not investigated for yourself? All I can go by is his own words held against the truth of Scriptures. Where does Jesus deny being the Messiah? What verse is that?

You watched a commercial intended to stir emotion with the hope of you buying the book. Bravo for buying into the hype! Maybe others on here will buy the book now just like the drama behind the DaVinci Code.I didn't buy into any hype, just putting out a warning of its unorthodox claims. It may be just semantic misunderstandings in the way he says things, but why cause confusion and lack of clarity just for the sake of selling a book?

[Denny]

All he did was state it a way to get feathers ruffled and eyebrows raised (as he always does). Read the book and get back with us if you still feel the same. ;)

[flashstang04]

I think it was a marketing ploy personally...but the danger comes when people will not read the book that think Hagee is the best thing ever and will go around saying that "Hagee said Christ never said he was the Messiah". Too many people parrot what they hear instead of researching, unfortunately, so as Christians we have to be responsible with what we say. We should never say anything that would "cause our brother to stumble".

[Denny]

I think it was a marketing ploy personally...but the danger comes when people will not read the book that think Hagee is the best thing ever and will go around saying that "Hagee said Christ never said he was the Messiah". Too many people parrot what they hear instead of researching, unfortunately, so as Christians we have to be responsible with what we say. We should never say anything that would "cause our brother to stumble".
Well, thank goodness I don't listen to people who talk out of their ass. :cool:

[Phillystang]

In his book In Defense of Israel (2007), beginning in the section called "The Jews did not Reject Jesus as Messiah" (p. 132) John Hagee relentlessly twisted Scripture in his attempt to prove that Jesus Christ did not come "to be Messiah to the Jews." His denial of Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) cannot be overlooked as a mere "slip of his pen" because he repeated his assertion "seven ways from Sunday" as seen in this sample of seven quotes from his book:

If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)
If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)
The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)
He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)
John Hagee's words directly contradict the central message of the entire New Testament. Indeed, John Hagee's words directly contradict the fundamental declaration that defines the Christian Faith, which is that Jesus is the Messiah (i.e. the Christ). This is what Peter declared in his first sermon to thousands of his fellow Jews gathered at Pentecost (Acts 2:36):

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Messiah).

Likewise, this was the first thing Saul, the Jew from Tarsus, proclaimed to his fellow Jews in the synagogues immediately after the scales fell from his eyes (Acts 9:20-23):

And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:

Scripture declares that Saul, who soon would be known as the Apostle Paul, preached and proved to his Jewish audience that Jesus is Messiah. The Gospel itself is called the "Gospel of Christ" or in Jewish terms, the Gospel of the Messiah! This fact is so very elementary it seems almost foolish to belabour it. That any genuinely Christian teacher could err on this point is inconceiveable because the error concerns the primal definition of Christianity itself. Scripture therefore places this error under the greatest possible condemnation:

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. -- 1 John 2:22

read the rest at http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/Hagee_Defense_of_Israel.asp

[Denny]

Tell you what. Since all you want to do is read someone else's review and go from there, I'll make a review after I read it. It sounds like the person who wrote the review was looking for something to critique. I'll just read it for myself and draw my own conclusion. I still think he's saying that Jesus refused to be the Messiah that they were expecting but rather the Savior He came to be. I've just made my own conclusion from what I know of John Hagee's speaking techniques, as I've listened to several of his sermons and read his books. It's all still an assumption to me right now, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I read the book myself.

I will tell you this, though. If it is outright blasphemous, I'll let everyone know. I side with the Bible before anyone else.

[Phillystang]

looking for something to critique? When someone states that "this book will shake Christianity," you better bet that someone is going to examine its assertions. Since the majority may not read the entire article...

some more

Liar! Antichrist! There is no mistaking the apostasy here. The word "Christ" literally means "Messiah." The New Testament could be faithfully translated with all references to Jesus Christ rendered as "Jesus the Messiah." Indeed, the Complete Jewish Bible translates the verse above as "Who is a liar at all, if not the person who denies that Yeshua is the Messiah?" How then is it possible that John Hagee, who has been preaching and teaching the "Bible" for over forty years, could suddenly turn and deny that Jesus is the Messiah? Is it possible that we are misunderstanding what he really meant? The unfortunate answer is that Hagee left no room for misunderstanding. He repeated his heresies over and over again. Let us begin with this quote from pages 137-138:

If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? The Jews, knowing of Moses's signs to Israel, asked for a supernatural sign that Jesus was indeed their Messiah. Jesus answered:

No sign will be given...except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -- Matthew 12:39-40

Jesus refused to give a sign. He only compared himself with the prophet Jonah, who carried the message of repentance from God to the Gentiles in Nineveh.

This one quote has many errors. The first is Hagee's failure to recognize that the "sign of Jonah" was the ultimate miraculous sign upon which all Christianity stands, namely, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the supreme sign that God gave to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. Hagee ignored it as if it were nothing; his six page Index doesn't even have an entry for "resurrection." He also erred in his assertion that God didn't "authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah." This directly contradicts the words preached by the Apostle Peter at Pentecost (Acts 2:22-23)

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Hagee's claim also contradicts Christ's answer to the Jews when they demanded to know if He was Messiah (John 10:24-33):

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Messiah, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Christ cited the "good works" of His miraculous signs as proof that He is Messiah. John's Gospel was designed around seven of those signs, beginning with the miraculous transformation of water into wine and culminating in the resurrection of Lazarus from the dead after which the Jews, predictably, plotted again to murder him. The Apostle John drove the final nail into the coffin of Hagee's heresy when he summed up the purpose of his Gospel (John 20:30-31):

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Peter, Paul, and John are but three of the New Testament Jews who declared to their fellow Jews that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. Yet Hagee denies that Jesus ever claimed to be the Messiah, and with that false presupposition attempts to exonerate "the Jews" by asking "How can the Jews be blamed for rejecting what was never offered?" (p. 136). He repeatedly denies that the "Jews as a people" were in any way responsible for the death of Christ. Peter's pentecostal sermon quoted above provides another refuation of this error. The Apostle addressed the whole crowd of multiplied thousands, saying "Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem" (Acts 2:14), and the accused them all saying "God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Messiah." He declared them all guilty of killing Jesus and contrary to Hagee, told those thousands upon thousands of first century Jews that Jesus was not only "Lord" but also MESSIAH. This was the declaration of all the Jews who believed: Jesus is Messiah! This pricked the crowd to their heart, and about three thousand Jews were saved that day. Yet in the face of all this biblical evidence, John Hagee continues to deny that Jesus is the Messiah to the Jews, saying "The people wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused" (p. 139).

It is a most unfortunate fact that Hagee's errors cannot be discounted as innocent mistakes. In his quote of Matthew 12 in the tan box above, he willfully omitted Scripture that contradicted his thesis. The true reason that "Jesus refused to give a sign" in that particular passage is revealed in the text that Hagee deliberately hid from his readers (Matthew 12:38-41, NKJV):

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

[Denny]

Like I said, I will read it myself.

[Denny]

Here's another forum that posted about this subject. I gave roughly the same comments that I'm staying somewhat neutral until I've read the book, but I thought some of you might like to see what others are saying.

http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/review-of-in-defense-of-israel-by-john-hagee/

[BrianC]

I love the Jews, but Hagee doesn't know what he's talking about in regard to prophecy. Not going to offer up a prophetic view right now, but just thought I'd show how futurism came about. Back in the 1500's, the people were starting to accuse the Catholic church of being the whore clothed in red and purple riding on the back of the beast, drunken with the blood of the saints, having the name Mystery Babylon, and said to be the City on Seven Hills. Gee, it's funny that Revelation says all of that, because the Vatican has cardinals and bishops that wear red and purple, and they do have the blood of saints on their hands, and Vatican City is known worldwide as the City on Seven Hills. And the Pope ruled the world with the governmental leader at the time (definitely not saying anything like these two were the false prophet and antichrist).

Anyway, since people seemed to be catching on to this, the Catholic church decides to inject false doctrine into the mainstream beliefs to throw everyone off. They hire two Jesuit priests.

The Roots of Futurism

Rabera 1591 – Jesuit Priest
Commissioned to make up a story about revelation to throw off the people during the reformation who were teaching that the roman catholic church was the great whore of revelation.

Manuel de la Consa Eudias 1700s (born in Chile)
Sent to Spain to become a Jesuit priest

1765 – Jesuits thrown out of Spain because of their brutality
Emola, Italy – Manuel’s father – suedonym – Rabbi ben Ezra.
Wrote this book: The coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty
Book is about a futurist 7yr tribulation.

1801 – Spanish priests got a hold of the book and translated it into Spanish and translated it. Few years later, British Heretic Edward Irving got ahold of it and began publishing the minitribulation view in the morning paper.

Then, John Darby attended some of the Edwin Irving seminars and he was taken by this new doctrine. He belived that La Cunsa had it all wrong, and instead of a mini tribulation it was a seven year tribulation. That started the futurist movement we know today.

Irving had an evangelist working for him named Robert Norton. Robert taught everyone the Irvinite view, and he met Margaret McDonald. She was in her fifties and claimed she had a vision of a secret “rapture”. (she played with Ouija boards) He taught this secret rapture all around Britan.

Darby taught C.I. Scofield, and Scofield put this view in his Bible. 9 men were on his revision board (for this Bible translation), and because of this new teaching, 3 resigned because it was counter scriptural with 1 corinthians 15:52 (last trumpet) and 2 Thess 2:1-4 and Matthew 24:15-34.


Sorry that's so cut and dry. I typed up that document just to have a rough draft of how the futurist movement started. I used to be a futurist. Now, I have a view and don't even know what to call it. My view is that all of the numerical prophecies have come to pass as of 1967, which ended the time of the Gentiles, and started the Time of the End. And this generation will not pass till all of these things be fulfilled. So, I guess, anyone that was born in 1967, not all of them will die before Jesus comes back. That's my guess on that little bit. lol I think 5 of the 7 seals have happened. I think 5 of the 7 trumpets have happened. And the vials won't happen till the last few days or the last day. And the 6th & 7th seals are opened on the last day with the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial.

Yeah, I bet I just really messed with a lot of people's heads just then. LOL You probably haven't a clue what the heck I'm talking about now. That's ok, my head wants to explode too, but I ducktaped it first so that if it explodes, when I go to the emergency room, they'll still have all of the pieces there to put my head back together again. :D

[Brain_Mach1]

All I can go by is his own words held against the truth of Scriptures. Where does Jesus deny being the Messiah? What verse is that?

I didn't buy into any hype, just putting out a warning of its unorthodox claims. It may be just semantic misunderstandings in the way he says things, but why cause confusion and lack of clarity just for the sake of selling a book?
Other people call Jesus the Messiah, He calls Himself The Son of Man.

Even Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) has a section in his book Jesus of Nazareth about this topic. The Jewish vision for a Messiah is a political figure which Jesus was not. His miracles were not politically based as those of Moses were. If you are looking for a political lead such as Moses, you will not find him in Jesus. Jesus never claims to take this role.

I don't know if this is what Hagee means, since I have not read his book. But I will not tell other people what they believe. It would be like telling a Catholic what a Tabernacle is. :D

I am not defending Hagee as I have not read his book and I do have issues with what he says on his radio broadcasts. I have even stated in other posts that he scares me a little because I don't know if I trust his motives for defending Israel. I do have issues with the attacks against anyone without a good foundation.

Who runs the Congregation of Doctrine and Faith? Who determines what orthodox is? There are 40,000 independant Churches in the USA.

[Phillystang]

Other people call Jesus the Messiah, He calls Himself The Son of Man.
Who does Jesus identify himself as?

The woman said, “I know that Messiah (called Christ) is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” Then Jesus declared, “I Who speak to you am He” (John 4:25-26).


Who runs the Congregation of Doctrine and Faith? Who determines what orthodox is? There are 40,000 independant Churches in the USAThe Pope silly, :D

[Phillystang]

JOHN HAGEE SAYS JESUS ISN’T THE MESSIAH BUT THE APOSTLE PAUL DISAGREES

Apprising Ministries asks: Who are you going to believe? Because in his book In Defense of Israel John Hagee writes:

Jesus refused to drink the Messiah’s cup... In refusing to drink the cup, Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. The Jews did not reject Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who rejected the Jewish desire for him to be their Messiah. (144, 145, emphasis his)

But the inspired Apostle Paul disagrees:

there was a synagogue of the Jews. And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.” (Acts 17:1-3, NASB)

[BlackSnake1996]

That kind of freaks me out. Though I don't totally agree with his ministry, I usually think his biblical history is pretty dead on.

[Phillystang]

Where was the unothodox claim? :confused:
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[Brain_Mach1]

Maybe it is time for some orthodoxy.

[Denny]

I can't see the video that was posted, but to address the whole "Jesus rejecting Himself as the Messiah" deal...

The Jewish people had been waiting for their Messiah to come for quite some time. At the time of Jesus' birth, what better time for Him to come? The people were under Roman rule and wanted nothing more than to have a great and mighty ruler (like the times of David) to come through and wipe their enemies out. When Jesus came, though, He came to teach them how to live (by word and demonstration). He came to give them a New Covenant (God's Grace). He came to tell them of things to come and what to look for. Naturally, He rejected the claims that He came to conquer and dominate, making Israel as powerful as can be. That is what He rejected... their version of what they thought the Messiah was going to be.