Free Will or Predestined?

[Fastback]

In a couple different threads "free will" has come up: IE. We choose God via free will or we are nothing more than robots. On the other hand, He chose us; He's omnipresent and omniscient and therefore knows the outcome. Infact, He knew what He was making when He made me in the first place, and I am therefore predestined. I sorta lean toward the predestined part. However, it still wreaks of free will. See my dilemma? What do some of you base your decision on? I am trying to resolve this in my mind.

[flashstang04]

First off, you are trying to ascribe human understanding to God's mind. It would be like trying to have a serious conversation about weather a dog has a concept of "self" or not, ascribing dog characteristics to a human.

The best illustration that i ever heard on this was this:


Imagine you are looking at a piece of paper. If there were drawings on the paper that could perceive, they would only be able to see 2 dimensionally left, right, up and down. you however, seeing the paper from the outside can see ALL the angles in 3D including the paper itslef, as well as what may be on the opposite side of the page.

Such is it with God, he sees all time streams at once, that is why He is the same yesterday, today and the forever. He is literally unchanging. The ability to do this is what allows Him (by His own design) to be able to overlook and forgive past sins AS THEY ARE HAPPENING, thanks to Christ's death. When He told Moses "tell them I AM sent you, He was saying literally that He IS! He is not past, present , or future, He simply is. He permeates all time lines equally and at the same time. The time phenomenon does not affect God whatsoever, it is man made to mark different things of a human existence.

I hope that is not too confusing.

[Fastback]

First off, you are trying to ascribe human understanding to God's mind. It would be like trying to have a serious conversation about weather a dog has a concept of "self" or not, ascribing dog characteristics to a human.

The best illustration that i ever heard on this was this:


Imagine you are looking at a piece of paper. If there were drawings on the paper that could perceive, they would only be able to see 2 dimensionally left, right, up and down. you however, seeing the paper from the outside can see ALL the angles in 3D including the paper itslef, as well as what may be on the opposite side of the page.

Such is it with God, he sees all time streams at once, that is why He is the same yesterday, today and the forever. He is literally unchanging. The ability to do this is what allows Him (by His own design) to be able to overlook and forgive past sins AS THEY ARE HAPPENING, thanks to Christ's death. When He told Moses "tell them I AM sent you, He was saying literally that He IS! He is not past, present , or future, He simply is. He permeates all time lines equally and at the same time. The time phenomenon does not affect God whatsoever, it is man made to mark different things of a human existence.

I hope that is not too confusing.

So, are you saying free will? ;) jk

[flashstang04]

Both! :D

[Fastback]

Both! :D Yes, me too... I like that quote from Mr. Skrewtape from the other thread you and I participated in:

You may have often wondered why the enemy (God) does not make more use of his power to be sensibly present to human souls in any degree he chooses and at any moment. But you now see that the irresistable and the indisputable are the two weapons which the very nature of his scheme forbids him to use. Merely to override human will (as his felt presence in any but the faintest and most mitigated degree would certainly do) would be for him useless. He cannot ravish. He can only woo. For his ignoble idea is to eat the cake and have it; the creatures are to be one with him, but yet themselves; merely to cancel them, or to assimilate them will not serve.....Sooner or later he withdraws, if not in fact, at least from their conscious experience, all supports and incentives. He leaves the creature to stand on its own legs--- to carry out from the will alone duties which have lost all relish..... He cannot "tempt" to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away his hand.... Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our enemies will, looks round upon the universe from which every trace of him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.

Uncle Srewtape
C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

I think God is having His cake and eating it too.

[Phillystang]

See my last post in the other thread



Therefore, to keep all of these biblical statement in agreement and to keep free will and predestination (God knowing all events in advance)



Why do you come back to saying we have free will, what verse that you listed spells that out? We are certainly free to do what is according to our nature, but what is our nature? Evil continuously, sin, and wickedness.

Predestination is not just about God's foreknowledge and then a reaction, it is about ordaining and being the cause.

Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Luke 18:7
And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?

John 13:18
[ Jesus Predicts His Betrayal ] "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'

(Here we can see that Judas was clearly not chosen. It is tough to stomach but what can we do, rationalize it away and change the Bible? By no means.



Otherwise (in your view), He'd have to save everyone

How do you conclude this? That is not what my view says.
Romans 9:15 & 16

God says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

and Paul says
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."




You said...


He can only choose those who accept His salvation


5. Jesus says He chose us, we did not choose Him.


Are the elect those that God saw would accept him or do regenerated men accept God because they are of the elect? Your view still seems to have man in control.

John 10:26-28
26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

[Phillystang]

We choose God via free will or we are nothing more than robots.

I would have assumed something similar in the past up until this year when a light bulb went off in my head and I started to do some heavy reading and searching into the matter. If you want to use the term robots, there are only two kinds of robots. Those that robotically sin and are under God's wrath or those that have been born again by God's grace under the preaching of the Gospel and are robots of a new nature. You see, what you might call robots for God to have predestined some for mercy is no different than the robots we are born as who can do nothing but evil. The will is governed by the person's nature; either a sin nature or a new godly nature. The sin nature of the unregenerate will not choose God though.

[BrianC]

I would have assumed something similar in the past up until this year when a light bulb went off in my head and I started to do some heavy reading and searching into the matter. If you want to use the term robots, there are only two kinds of robots. Those that robotically sin and are under God's wrath or those that have been born again by God's grace under the preaching of the Gospel and are robots of a new nature. You see, what you might call robots for God to have predestined some for mercy is no different than the robots we are born as who can do nothing but evil. The will is governed by the person's nature; either a sin nature or a new godly nature. The sin nature of the unregenerate will not choose God though.

I wish I'd seen this thread before I went posting again in the other thread that pertains to this topic. lol

You're misunderstanding the term "robot." Robot means you're preprogrammed FROM BIRTH, with NO choices whatsoever. If we're to think of robots the way you are describing them, you're saying that these robots are either born without the sin nature, or with it, and there's no choice along the way.

When our afterlife is already decided FOR us, we are robots and have no control or free will. When we have a choice as to where we will go in the afterlife, then we are not robots. But it just so happens that the requirements to choose God are two things that originate from Him; the call, and the faith. Therefore, He is credited with our salvation, not us. We just use those things to make the choice. Without those two things, we have no capacity to choose God. My next post will explain this more indepth.

[BrianC]

How do you conclude this? That is not what my view says.
Romans 9:15 & 16

God says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

and Paul says
"So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."



I am saying that it depends on God, just like Paul is. I'll explain this again, but use different verses this time.

Here's a verse that explains this:

Romans 10:9-14,17 (Capitals are Old Testament Verses)
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?...
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

We're told here that people cannot believe if they do not hear about God first. So, God MUST call us first, via a preacher or teacher or the Bible according to this verse. And we won't hear unless we first have faith, according to this verse.

Matthew 22:14
"For many are called, but few are chosen."

God is still the originator of the salvation process, because without His call FIRST, no one could believe. And without the equal measure of faith He gives us, we could not hear. So God is doubly responsible for us being saved.

Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

So, not only did he put the call out there, but He also put the faith in us. He simply knows who will accept Him and who will not accept Him, and He chooses accordlingly. If this is not the solution, then we have absolutely no control over our belief in Christ with the faith He put in us. Your view eliminates free will, and I don't see how that's possible.

True love is a choice out of free will. God does not want to make people love Him, because then it is not true love, which is God's very nature. He wants us to choose to love Him. Free will must be present for this to occur. Otherwise, people are being damned to eternal hellfire by a God that simply thought it was a good idea to save some, but not others. How horrible is that? No, our free will/choice MUST play a role, or God is not a just God.


Anyone have a different argument?

[Phillystang]

I wish I'd seen this thread before I went posting again in the other thread that pertains to this topic. lol

You're misunderstanding the term "robot." Robot means you're preprogrammed FROM BIRTH, with NO choices whatsoever. If we're to think of robots the way you are describing them, you're saying that these robots are either born without the sin nature, or with it, and there's no choice along the way.No, all are born with the sin nature, God has purposed for some to receive mercy and some to pass over. For God to choose does not make anybody some sort of robot though.


When our afterlife is already decided FOR us, we are robots and have no control or free will. When we have a choice as to where we will go in the afterlife, then we are not robots. But it just so happens that the requirements to choose God are two things that originate from Him; the call, and the faith. Therefore, He is credited with our salvation, not us. We just use those things to make the choice. Without those two things, we have no capacity to choose God. My next post will explain this more indepth.Are your saying that there will be no choices in heaven?

So, not only did he put the call out there, but He also put the faith in us. He simply knows who will accept Him and who will not accept Him, and He chooses accordlingly. If this is not the solution, then we have absolutely no control over our belief in Christ with the faith He put in us. Your view eliminates free will, and I don't see how that's possible.

Look at God's words in Ezekiel 36, tell me if it looks like God is waiting for men to accept him

'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

True love is a choice out of free will. God does not want to make people love Him, because then it is not true love, which is God's very nature. He wants us to choose to love Him. Free will must be present for this to occur. Otherwise, people are being damned to eternal hellfire by a God that simply thought it was a good idea to save some, but not others. How horrible is that? No, our free will/choice MUST play a role, or God is not a just God.I think you misunderstand the nature of God and the nature of man. God would be just to cast everyone into hell because all have sinned.

Once again, in Romans 9:11-15 Paul seems to be responding to this very question, notice he says "before they were born or had done anything good or bad."

I don't think you can simply pass over this verse without rethinking your idea of the nature of God.

11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f]

[Bobba Fett]

Ok, so this is how I understand it:

God has already forgiven us of all of our sins, so therefore we are ALL pre-destined in the fact that we all have a spot in heaven, but we also have free will, being that we can decide if we choose the accept His forgiveness or not. Correct?

So with that said, if God truly knows everything, why would He create someone knowing that they would not accept Him (choose not to go to Heaven) when they pass away from the earth???

[Fastback]

Ok, so this is how I understand it:

God has already forgiven us of all of our sins, so therefore we are ALL pre-destined in the fact that we all have a spot in heaven, but we also have free will, being that we can decide if we choose the accept His forgiveness or not. Correct?

So with that said, if God truly knows everything, why would He create someone knowing that they would not accept Him (choose not to go to Heaven) when they pass away from the earth???

He created Satan... we see his purpose, right? I mean, I don't know... I'm just trying to play :confused:

[Bobba Fett]

He created Satan... we see his purpose, right? I mean, I don't know... I'm just trying to play :confused:

True...he created Satan...but did He know that he was going to defy Him at one point? Did He know what Satan's future was before He created Satan? If so, why even create Satan in the first place?

[flashstang04]

That is why free will is the ultimate power.... to an extent, God puts this solely in our control, just as He did Satan's. Our free will is so powerful, in fact, that it can determine our eternal residence.....now that is power.

[Fastback]

True...he created Satan...but did He know that he was going to defy Him at one point? Did He know what Satan's future was before He created Satan? If so, why even create Satan in the first place?

He had to know...God is limitless (omniscient). So the question is if Satan is the author of evil (or whoever is ), did God create evil vicariously for the creation of good??

[Bobba Fett]

That is why free will is the ultimate power.... to an extent, God puts this solely in our control, just as He did Satan's. Our free will is so powerful, in fact, that it can determine our eternal residence.....now that is power.

I believe that is true, but why bother making Satan knowing that he would choose to defy God? Or make anyone for that matter knowing that they would defy Him? Would this mean that some have a pre-destiny for hell? If not, does that mean that He only knows that He has made a place for you in Heaven and it's your decision to accept this?? If that is true, wouldn't that mean that his knowledge would be limited???

[flashstang04]

Try looking at this from another viewpoint. Having free will allows some to choose against God, on the other hand, it also allows believers to do good works by ministering to them and caring for them. By dealing with non-believers day in and day out, we are building not only spiritual integrity (storing up treasures), but it allows us to attempt to be like Jesus.

If you guys are truly serious about this, read a book called "The Fall of Lucifer". It is a fictional account and I believe is God inspired. It chronicles the angels relationship to God, and the eventual willingness of Satan to step outside of God's will as he found out that God intended on making man his precious creation. It looks at his and other angels personalities, as well as how Satan could convince a third of the angels to go with him. I urge you all to pick up a copy. I think it is an amazing book to say the least.

[Bobba Fett]

Try looking at this from another viewpoint. Having free will allows some to choose against God, on the other hand, it also allows believers to do good works by ministering to them and caring for them. By dealing with non-believers day in and day out, we are building not only spiritual integrity (storing up treasures), but it allows us to attempt to be like Jesus.

If you guys are truly serious about this, read a book called "The Fall of Lucifer". It is a fictional account and I believe is God inspired. It chronicles the angels relationship to God, and the eventual willingness of Satan to step outside of God's will as he found out that God intended on making man his precious creation. It looks at his and other angels personalities, as well as how Satan could convince a third of the angels to go with him. I urge you all to pick up a copy. I think it is an amazing book to say the least.

Sounds interesting. I'll check this book out @ Amazon and thanks for your input!

[Axianator]

If I may, allow me to complicate your life with the following article. ;)

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE IS A BIT LENGTHY.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

[flashstang04]

If I may, allow me to complicate your life with the following article. ;)

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE IS A BIT LENGTHY.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html


This guy peppers scripture in half truths..I would be wary of his teaching. He would suggest that EVERYTHING is predetermined....He also...btw....denies the Holy Trinity.....no thanks.

[Axianator]

This guy peppers scripture in half truths..I would be wary of his teaching. He would suggest that EVERYTHING is predetermined....He also...btw....denies the Holy Trinity.....no thanks.If you would read more than just a few sentences or paragraphs of Ray's article, you would see that he is not suggesting or even subscribing to predestination.

Might I suggest you open the parachute of your mind and then give it another go. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[flashstang04]

He subscribes to universalism, the belief that Lucifer is not Satan,flawed garden of Eden events, and other things regarding "translations" that only he understands and hosts of other bible scholars do not.

If punishment is finite, then why change. Better yet, why Jesus?

I am not new to his work.

[Fastback]

If I may, allow me to complicate your life with the following article. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE IS A BIT LENGTHY.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

I read the whole article, but just the one (so far). This guy has some great logical arguments for predestination, and does a number on the concept of free will. However, I have to say that I felt he took some "creative license" with some of what he was saying, either in interpreting something with a little extra added on, or pulling from an assumption I have not myself discovered in reading the same text. Hot material there, and I do apreciate the good read.... I am going to continue to mull over some of the other articles a bit, but I have to tell you, I am not 100% with it. I have never heard of this guy before as some of you have but I did notice on the home page he's refuting some of Hagee... oh noes ;)

[Phillystang]

I browsed through some of the articles as well and he has some of the strangest mix of theology I've seen, a universal calvinist, wow.

[Fastback]

I browsed through some of the articles as well and he has some of the strangest mix of theology I've seen, a universal calvinist, wow.

Wow, define that... please

[Axianator]

This guy peppers scripture in half truths..Unlike many modern preachers, teachers, evangelists and other fundamentalists, Ray actually quotes entire verses of scripture, in context, while using related verses of scripture to build the foundation of his arguments.

Just for my own curiosity, do you have any specific examples showing where Ray "peppers scripture in half truths" in one of his articles?

He subscribes to universalism, the belief that Lucifer is not Satan,flawed garden of Eden events, and other things regarding "translations" that only he understands and hosts of other bible scholars do not.IMO, your point only reinforces the fact that he's willing to think outside the proverbial box. Are you?

If punishment is finite, then why change.The short answer: so that we may become like the Father.

Better yet, why Jesus?Assuming that we remove the possibility of an eternal hell from the overall equation, would we still have anything from which we need to be saved? ABSOLUTELY.

"For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the GIFT of God is eternal [Gk: aionian, or age-abiding] life THROUGH [this is the reason He died] Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23)

According to this scripture, what do we receive as payment for our sins? DEATH.

What happens to us when our bodies cease to function? DEATH.

What does the gift of God give us victory over? DEATH.

But that's not the best part. Keep in mind that we will also be saved from pain, disease, fear, hatred, lust, immorality, weakness, addiction, wickedness, evil, and our entire carnal nature.

In short, we will be saved of ourselves. I don't know about you, but I think that's AWESOME.

I am not new to his work.Perhaps not. Then again, if you were truly familiar with his work, you would already have the answers to your two earlier questions. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Hot material there, and I do apreciate the good read.... I am going to continue to mull over some of the other articles a bit, but I have to tell you, I am not 100% with it.I'm glad I could add some kindling to the fire. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you read some more material.

but I did notice on the home page he's refuting some of Hagee... oh noes http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gifIMO, you haven't lived until you've read (and survived) his critiques against Hagee and Kennedy. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Bobba Fett]

If I may, allow me to complicate your life with the following article. ;)

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE IS A BIT LENGTHY.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

Sorry, this is pure religion if I ever read it. I smelt a Jehovah Witness when I read that article...has JW beliefs spewed all through that (no trinity, denying the belief of Hell in some points, blah, blah, blah.)

What I am looking for is a view from personal believers and NOT from a religious stance to answer my question. Why don't you state your personal beliefs and not from another person this time...

[flashstang04]

Here is a good (also long) article about his view on the Trinity:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr02.html

It is true that most of his views are consistent with Jehovah's Witnesses wrapped in Christianity.

Here is another....an email debate with him, notice that when he gets backed in a corner the person he is arguing with is not "walking in love". I would encourage you all to read the debate and make your own conclusions.

http://hometown.aol.com/prophetnick77/page58.html

I love this example by the guy trying to show L. Ray Smith how flawed his theology is......:



Now let me offer this analogy. Salvation is a free gift offered to all. If I stood in a room full of 100 people with 100 $1 dollar bills and told everyone that all they had to do to receive the $1 bill was take it...and only 50 people came and took it and the other 50 were left without the gift, Does that make me unjust or unloving? The same gift was offered to all and it was my will that all come and take it. There was enough for all to have an equal share. Only 50 chose to receive what was offered to the 100. The other 50 willfully rejected the free gift. I cannot force anyone to take it. I cannot change the will of any man. I can only offer.

The same is true with salvation. God has offered it to all and some willfully reject it. Because God is Holy, Righteous, and Just, He must judge sin. The penalty for sin is death. It would be unjust for God to force anyone to take something they didn't want and it would be unjust for God to let some people off the hook for what his law says must be punished. This is not the nature of God. This is God's Word and God has placed His Word above even His name - Psalm 138:2. The bottom line is that we were created with a conscience for a reason. If we don't know the law that says not to murder and we murder anyway, are we any less guilty? If you didn't realize the speed limit was 50 and you were ticketed for driving 70, is the Police Officer unjust?

[Fastback]

The thing I am struggling with is that God is all knowing and He made me. He knows what I am going to do in any given situation because He mad me. You don't mix together the ingredients to make brownies and then end up with white cake. He knows exactly what He is making. I am the result of the recipe for me. I will function only as that. He knew when He made me that I would "choose" Him...Therefore, He made me <i>to</i? choose Him... so where is my will?? My will is made by God and is therefore <i>mine</i>. So I chose Him by my will that He willed.....I am therefore chosen.

[flashstang04]

The thing I am struggling with is that God is all knowing and He made me. He knows what I am going to do in any given situation because He mad me. You don't mix together the ingredients to make brownies and then end up with white cake. He knows exactly what He is making. I am the result of the recipe for me. I will function only as that. He knew when He made me that I would "choose" Him...Therefore, He made me <i>to</i? choose Him... so where is my will?? My will is made by God and is therefore <i>mine</i>. So I chose Him by my will that He willed.....I am therefore chosen.


That is the miracle of it, and we can only TRY to describe it this side of Heaven. He knows what you will choose, but at the same time puts Himself outside your loop of free will. It is a tough concept for a human, but just because He knows does not mean that we have no choice.

Even Christ had a choice to stay on the cross or come off of it.

Did He know that Lot would not find any righteous in Sodom? Of course.... so why did He allow him to try? It was so that
1) Lot could exercise his free will, and
2) it let Lot act on his compassion.

We will be rewarded according to our works. God gives us opportunities 24 hours a day to be Christlike to others, ............even though He knows what we will do. I definitely understand where you are coming from, but God has the ability to have dual positions on this subject and not conflict with Himself.

[BrianC]

I think what we agree on needs to be stated, and what we don't agree on needs to be stated so that the lines are less blurred, because it seems that you misunderstand what I'm saying. That my be my fault for not explaining it better. I apologize if it's my communication skills.

What we agree on:
Ultimately God Chooses

What we disagree on:
That God uses logic due to foreknowledge in His selection process
That the foreknowledge of the man has anything to do with God's selection

We agree that God is the first decision maker in the process, and we agree that His decision is ultimately the one that means anything.

We do not agree on His means of selection/choosing. If God can see into the future, and wants to take the path that will save the most people, the logical thing to do, throughout history, is to select all of the people that you know are most submissive to allow you to spread your word through them to get the message out to more people.

God chose the Jews. If He had chosen some other people/nation, it may have been even worse! The Jews may have been the best choice to carry out God's plan exactly as He wanted it done for the greater good. We know God blinded the Jews so that the gentiles could be saved. So God blinded His own people. But does it mean He has left them and won't save them? No, prophetically, He says all of Israel will be saved and that He will never forsake Israel. We know Israel made a covenant with Him, and it is impossible for God to break His covenants, because He cannot break His word. Period. It's impossible. Just as He cannot break His covenant with us.

You used Ezekiel 36, but that is not something we can really use in this conversation, because it's a prophecy about the nation of Israel. It was fulfilled in 1948. Few debate this truth. God made promises to Israel in His covenant. You find His promises to save Israel all over the Old Testament and even in the New Testament. He can't break those. He tells them in this prophecy you posted: "


Ezekeil said:"For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land."

"Take you out of the nations" - Israel was fully driven from the Holy Land in 688AD when the Muslims started construction on the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount, they completely drove out the Jews.

"I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land." - The words "own land" show that Israel will be brought back into her old home, her own land God gave her originally.

The next part of this prophecy is debatible as to when the Jews get the Holy Spirit, so I won't get into that, because it's not the topic at hand.


Once again, in Romans 9:11-15 Paul seems to be responding to this very question, notice he says "before they were born or had done anything good or bad."

I don't think you can simply pass over this verse without rethinking your idea of the nature of God.


My view of this verse is that God forknew the hearts of both Jacob and Esau. He knew Esau would be some He dispised. He knew Jacob would be someone He loved. Jacob was a trickster, though. God really had to work with Jacob. What I'm saying is that God, in His forknowledge, chose the person that would be more submissive to His call. God makes wise decisions due to all that He knows about us and about the future. I'm simply saying that there is wisdom in God's choices, and if there is wisdom, then there was input that caused His choices, and it was not just random choosing.

Ask yourself this question: If I were God, and I had the knowledge of the future and knew every person better than they know themselves, and I knew that Esau would not serve me, but that Jacob would serve me, which, logically, would I choose?

What's your answer?

[BrianC]

Ok, so this is how I understand it:

God has already forgiven us of all of our sins, so therefore we are ALL pre-destined in the fact that we all have a spot in heaven, but we also have free will, being that we can decide if we choose the accept His forgiveness or not. Correct?

So with that said, if God truly knows everything, why would He create someone knowing that they would not accept Him (choose not to go to Heaven) when they pass away from the earth???

God created us not knowing evil at first. All we know was good. We had not been taught what evil was. We didn't even know that disobeying God was evil. We were given the first and only choice up front...the only rule to follow, and that was, "Don't eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, for if you do, you will surely die."

God made it SOOOOO simple. Had man not done that one simple thing, everyone would've lived in perfect harmony. God gave us everything and we threw it away. You can't blame God for our mistakes.

You say, "If God forknew some would go to hell, why did he create us?" Because He is a just God. He will, one way or another, give a call to all men that they can accept or reject. Then, it is their choice as to where they ultimately end up.

Now, here's the other part that is less understood, because it's not completely clear what it means fully in the Bible. God says that every man will see creation and know that there must be a God so that no one is without excuse. But He also says, in regard to the law which teaches us what sin is by exposing it, that before the law, no sin was imputed upon them (the people that didn't know the law, because they didn't understand what sin was). There is another verse that talks about God judging us according to our own consciences (speaking of non-saved people, of course, because Christians are told that they will not be judged). By the old law, we are told that a child under the age of 20 that does not choose God, but dies, will still enter heaven.

So, when you throw all of that into the mix, it's really hard to figure out how the heck God's going to judge people who didn't choose Christ. And He displays His mercy in that He condemns no child whatsoever, even if they don't choose Him. But it's still all very confusing. I'm almost thinking that we're not meant to understand this for some greater purpose. Kind of like, if we did understand it, it would be harder to witness to the unsaved? LOL I have no idea... Such an open ended subject with no clear definition.

[BrianC]

He created Satan... we see his purpose, right? I mean, I don't know... I'm just trying to play :confused:

Satan was created perfect (Ezk 28) originally, but also with choice. He chose to go against God and become the antithesis of perfect, which is evil. It was his choice, just like humans have a choice to choose the sin nature and hell over God and heaven. Everything, when you reason it down to its deepest level, always comes back to choice... And it's never God's fault. lol He says, "Your ways are not my ways and your thoughts are not my thoughts" I believe is how it's stated... We can't really understand how justified and perfect He is in His ways.

But yes, God knew Satan would fall, and He was counting on it so He could use Satan for the betterment of mankind. Otherwise, we'd have no adversity and we'd be a bunch of whiny wusses that can't overcome anything in life. lol Adversity is what makes life! It's how we grow and develope character.

[BrianC]

True...he created Satan...but did He know that he was going to defy Him at one point? Did He know what Satan's future was before He created Satan? If so, why even create Satan in the first place?

Some interpret life being hard as God being unloving. Other interpret life being hard as a God that is smart and knows that we need hard times to overcome to be better people, and so they invite troubles for a challenge of overcoming them with the Lord. It's all about how you view life. We are not God and cannot possibly understand the true reason behind this fully from His perspective.

But the best way I can reason it out is that God wanted true love from people since true love is His very nature and essence. And true love is a choice. It is not something you just "fall into." The fact that you'd have to "allow" yourself to "fall into" love proves that it is a choice you make. You can choose NOT to love someone if you wish. The point is that love is a choice. The fact that we have a choice implies we must have free will. So, free will is required for true love.

God, being the essense of true love and seeking true love and companionship and people to help and give wonderful things in heaven to, knew that when He created everything, free will must be at place so that everyone can choose for themselves, and then only the people that TRULY loved God would choose Him, so true love is accomplished. He put that love in us, but it is out choice to act on it or reject it. He is responsible for the call and the desire to seek Him. But we make the decision, though, because if we do not, it is not true love and God wants true love from people. This is just my theory. It's the only logical thing I have been able to come up with...but I'm not God. Can't say I have an understanding as to why He did it the way He did.

[Bobba Fett]

God created us not knowing evil at first. All we know was good. We had not been taught what evil was. We didn't even know that disobeying God was evil. We were given the first and only choice up front...the only rule to follow, and that was, "Don't eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, for if you do, you will surely die."

God made it SOOOOO simple. Had man not done that one simple thing, everyone would've lived in perfect harmony. God gave us everything and we threw it away. You can't blame God for our mistakes.

You say, "If God forknew some would go to hell, why did he create us?" Because He is a just God. He will, one way or another, give a call to all men that they can accept or reject. Then, it is their choice as to where they ultimately end up.

Now, here's the other part that is less understood, because it's not completely clear what it means fully in the Bible. God says that every man will see creation and know that there must be a God so that no one is without excuse. But He also says, in regard to the law which teaches us what sin is by exposing it, that before the law, no sin was imputed upon them (the people that didn't know the law, because they didn't understand what sin was). There is another verse that talks about God judging us according to our own consciences (speaking of non-saved people, of course, because Christians are told that they will not be judged). By the old law, we are told that a child under the age of 20 that does not choose God, but dies, will still enter heaven.

So, when you throw all of that into the mix, it's really hard to figure out how the heck God's going to judge people who didn't choose Christ. And He displays His mercy in that He condemns no child whatsoever, even if they don't choose Him. But it's still all very confusing. I'm almost thinking that we're not meant to understand this for some greater purpose. Kind of like, if we did understand it, it would be harder to witness to the unsaved? LOL I have no idea... Such an open ended subject with no clear definition.

I like you insight and I didn't know about all you have said. I will need to do more bible study...but thanks for you input and light on the subject! This diffidently helps me understand more about my questions and opens new ones.

[BrianC]

Here is a good (also long) article about his view on the Trinity:

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/smithlr02.html

It is true that most of his views are consistent with Jehovah's Witnesses wrapped in Christianity.

Here is another....an email debate with him, notice that when he gets backed in a corner the person he is arguing with is not "walking in love". I would encourage you all to read the debate and make your own conclusions.

http://hometown.aol.com/prophetnick77/page58.html

I love this example by the guy trying to show L. Ray Smith how flawed his theology is......:



Now let me offer this analogy. Salvation is a free gift offered to all. If I stood in a room full of 100 people with 100 $1 dollar bills and told everyone that all they had to do to receive the $1 bill was take it...and only 50 people came and took it and the other 50 were left without the gift, Does that make me unjust or unloving? The same gift was offered to all and it was my will that all come and take it. There was enough for all to have an equal share. Only 50 chose to receive what was offered to the 100. The other 50 willfully rejected the free gift. I cannot force anyone to take it. I cannot change the will of any man. I can only offer.

The same is true with salvation. God has offered it to all and some willfully reject it. Because God is Holy, Righteous, and Just, He must judge sin. The penalty for sin is death. It would be unjust for God to force anyone to take something they didn't want and it would be unjust for God to let some people off the hook for what his law says must be punished. This is not the nature of God. This is God's Word and God has placed His Word above even His name - Psalm 138:2. The bottom line is that we were created with a conscience for a reason. If we don't know the law that says not to murder and we murder anyway, are we any less guilty? If you didn't realize the speed limit was 50 and you were ticketed for driving 70, is the Police Officer unjust?

Anyone with a good understanding of scriptures in the Bible that really understands their beliefs and how they actually work and are explained biblically can easily debate and show the shortcomings of L. Ray Smith's beliefs. I've done it with the man via e-mail.

It's funny, because when you get his e-mail, it says, "He's very busy responding to tons of e-mails and working on the site, so he may not be able to get back to you, or it may take a while." (Paraphrased, of course) Yet, when I e-mail him with a really good argument, he gets it in literally less than an hour or two and e-mails me back with a retort. If you give him good scripturally based arguments that disprove his own beliefs, he's quick to get back to you. Everyone else that doesn't have a good Bible knowledge, he doesn't have time for, or he uses their e-mails on the site to show, "Look here! I owned this guy!" Yeah, if I played an online game with other people and I only showed my games where I made good scores against less experienced players, then I would look like I was good at that game too. :)

He'll never post the e-mail arguments I sent him, because he couldn't properly debate them and finally said, "I'm sorry, but I just don't have time for you." lol Nice escape there, L. Ray.

I told him his views were extremely similar to JW's. He said, "I talked to them once and we just couldn't agree on anything." Well, that's funny, because he uses a lot of their arguments, and reshapes and modifies some of their beliefs as well. His website and beliefs are just a way for him to work his need for pride, if you ask me.

[BrianC]

The thing I am struggling with is that God is all knowing and He made me. He knows what I am going to do in any given situation because He mad me. You don't mix together the ingredients to make brownies and then end up with white cake. He knows exactly what He is making. I am the result of the recipe for me. I will function only as that. He knew when He made me that I would "choose" Him...Therefore, He made me <i>to</i? choose Him... so where is my will?? My will is made by God and is therefore <i>mine</i>. So I chose Him by my will that He willed.....I am therefore chosen.

Just became He made you doesn't mean He causes you to act a certain way. You have free will.

Look at a car, for instance. A car is made with purpose in mind to function only for one task. It either performs that task, or it wrecks or breaks down and is thrown away (or torn apart and used for other things). But that car does not have free will and doesn't choose its destiny. You, on the other hand, have free will to choose what you will do with your life, how you will believe and how you will respond to any given situation. The car does not have those choices. It all comes back to free will. God is not making you believe or disbelieve. It is your choice whether you want to ask Him, "Lord, if you're real, please show me you're real, in whatever way you see fit. You said, 'knock and is shall be opened, seek and you shall find.' So, I'm going to ernestly seek with all I have in me to try and find you, Lord. Meet me along the way, please and I'll try and do my part by not giving up."

He just wants someone to ernestly seek Him with an open heart. Until people recognize the one simple fact that there is a God, and He said I'm a sinner and can't get to heaven without His son, they will not see a need for God. Until the need is understood, there is no reason to respond to God. Search yourself by asking the question, "If there really is a heaven, and I am supposed to be perfect my entire life in order to get there, if I die today, will I make it?" And your answer, like everyones answer, will be, "No, because I have sinned before in my past, and that means I have no been perfect my entire life, so I have fallen short of what is necessary for getting into heaven. That means, unless I find another way, I am destined for the opposite of heaven: hell. I should look into finding an alternate route to heaven." Then you see a need for Jesus.

But it's a heart issue. Reading that doesn't clue you in. lol :) It's something you figure out in your heart, on your own.

[Fastback]

Just became He made you doesn't mean He causes you to act a certain way. You have free will.

Look at a car, for instance. A car is made with purpose in mind to function only for one task. It either performs that task, or it wrecks or breaks down and is thrown away (or torn apart and used for other things). But that car does not have free will and doesn't choose its destiny. You, on the other hand, have free will to choose what you will do with your life, how you will believe and how you will respond to any given situation. The car does not have those choices. It all comes back to free will. God is not making you believe or disbelieve. It is your choice whether you want to ask Him, "Lord, if you're real, please show me you're real, in whatever way you see fit. You said, 'knock and is shall be opened, seek and you shall find.' So, I'm going to ernestly seek with all I have in me to try and find you, Lord. Meet me along the way, please and I'll try and do my part by not giving up."

He just wants someone to ernestly seek Him with an open heart. Until people recognize the one simple fact that there is a God, and He said I'm a sinner and can't get to heaven without His son, they will not see a need for God. Until the need is understood, there is no reason to respond to God. Search yourself by asking the question, "If there really is a heaven, and I am supposed to be perfect my entire life in order to get there, if I die today, will I make it?" And your answer, like everyones answer, will be, "No, because I have sinned before in my past, and that means I have no been perfect my entire life, so I have fallen short of what is necessary for getting into heaven. That means, unless I find another way, I am destined for the opposite of heaven: hell. I should look into finding an alternate route to heaven." Then you see a need for Jesus.

But it's a heart issue. Reading that doesn't clue you in. lol :) It's something you figure out in your heart, on your own.

I guess it could be compared to the reconciling of quantum physics with general relativity. It is essentially the theologian's theory of everything

[flashstang04]

God created us not knowing evil at first. All we know was good. We had not been taught what evil was. We didn't even know that disobeying God was evil. We were given the first and only choice up front...the only rule to follow, and that was, "Don't eat from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, for if you do, you will surely die."

God made it SOOOOO simple. Had man not done that one simple thing, everyone would've lived in perfect harmony. God gave us everything and we threw it away. You can't blame God for our mistakes.

You say, "If God forknew some would go to hell, why did he create us?" Because He is a just God. He will, one way or another, give a call to all men that they can accept or reject. Then, it is their choice as to where they ultimately end up.

Now, here's the other part that is less understood, because it's not completely clear what it means fully in the Bible. God says that every man will see creation and know that there must be a God so that no one is without excuse. But He also says, in regard to the law which teaches us what sin is by exposing it, that before the law, no sin was imputed upon them (the people that didn't know the law, because they didn't understand what sin was). There is another verse that talks about God judging us according to our own consciences (speaking of non-saved people, of course, because Christians are told that they will not be judged). By the old law, we are told that a child under the age of 20 that does not choose God, but dies, will still enter heaven.

So, when you throw all of that into the mix, it's really hard to figure out how the heck God's going to judge people who didn't choose Christ. And He displays His mercy in that He condemns no child whatsoever, even if they don't choose Him. But it's still all very confusing. I'm almost thinking that we're not meant to understand this for some greater purpose. Kind of like, if we did understand it, it would be harder to witness to the unsaved? LOL I have no idea... Such an open ended subject with no clear definition.


I love that you addressed this before it came up. The one thing man tries to do which he cannot, is to see into the heart of his fellow man. God can see the heart and will of man as if on a TV screen. This is why it is difficult to answer questions like teenagers etc, being killed out of grace. It also answers that ALWAYS comes up. A favorite atheist argument is "What about tribes that have never heard of Jesus...how can God be just and let them into heaven, and how can he be just and NOT send them to hell."

Man needs to realize he is not God....

Faith Hope and Love......it may not be the MOST important...but faith is in the top 3...and thats a big deal. We don't HAVE to know everything.

[BrianC]

Unlike many modern preachers, teachers, evangelists and other fundamentalists, Ray actually quotes entire verses of scripture, in context, while using related verses of scripture to build the foundation of his arguments.

Just for my own curiosity, do you have any specific examples showing where Ray "peppers scripture in half truths" in one of his articles?

IMO, your point only reinforces the fact that he's willing to think outside the proverbial box. Are you?

The short answer: so that we may become like the Father.

Assuming that we remove the possibility of an eternal hell from the overall equation, would we still have anything from which we need to be saved? ABSOLUTELY.

"For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the GIFT of God is eternal [Gk: aionian, or age-abiding] life THROUGH [this is the reason He died] Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23)

According to this scripture, what do we receive as payment for our sins? DEATH.

What happens to us when our bodies cease to function? DEATH.

What does the gift of God give us victory over? DEATH.

But that's not the best part. Keep in mind that we will also be saved from pain, disease, fear, hatred, lust, immorality, weakness, addiction, wickedness, evil, and our entire carnal nature.

In short, we will be saved of ourselves. I don't know about you, but I think that's AWESOME.

Perhaps not. Then again, if you were truly familiar with his work, you would already have the answers to your two earlier questions. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

I'm glad I could add some kindling to the fire. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you read some more material.

IMO, you haven't lived until you've read (and survived) his critiques against Hagee and Kennedy. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Please allow me to show the incredibly flawed and twisted ways that L. Ray Smith argues his points. This will also show the dangers of not knowing the Bible for yourself and the dangers of trusting man instead of trusting God to discern truth to you through studying the Bible. It will also show how easy it is by knowing a little about the Bible to refute arguments such as the free will thing.


Here is part of L. Ray Smith's arguments:

"…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure" to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).

In just one night God smashed the presumed free will of all the disciples. They lost confidence in their flesh after that night. James later shows us just how well he learned this lesson of so-called free self determinism:

"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that" (James 4:13-15).

L. Ray smith is excellent at only pointing out what supports his view and completely disregarding anything opposed to it.

For instance, if you look at the first scripture Smith gives (Phil. 2:13), Smith doesn't bother to comment on the fact that the Bible teaches us to submit ourselves to God's will. Why would the Bible need to teach us that if we couldn't choose to resist it? It should come natural. So why teach it to us if God's will IS going to work through us no matter what?

Then, Smith, in all of his divine idiocy, uses a scripture that disproves his point, but neglects to point out that portion of the scripture. He uses James 4:13-15, which says, "You OUGHT to say, "if the Lord will, we shall life, and do this, or that." He's telling the people not to resist the will of God by practicing their own will for their own desires. Why would James be teaching them to do this if their will is controlled by God already?

And he neglects to the passage where Peter says this:

1 Peter 2:16
Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.

The freedom spoken of here is the freedom we have from sin when we come to Christ. And we are instructed to USE the freedom we've been given to be bondslaves of God. If we have to be told to use this freedom a certain way, we have a choice and are not controlled by God. The Bible wreeks of free will. If you didn't know the Bible well, though, you wouldn't know these passages existed, among many others, and you would be persuaded easily. Critical thinking and indepth research are a fine art that people forget to practice on a regular basis. This leads to all kinds of false beliefs and misconceptions... Sometimes people don't heed this out of pride, because they don't want to be proven wrong, and sometimes people don't heed this because they're too lazy or don't make time to search out answers on their own. Never know what people's motives really are. They rarely know themselves...

I almost hate to give this guy the time of day by discussing his beliefs. He doesn't deserve it. He's the most scathingly vial person I've seen that can present his beliefs and call everyone else idiots constantly throughout his entire page. Then, he cites Jesus as his excuse for being this way. He says, "Jesus got angry at the temple changers and he was always really mean to the Pharasees and Saducees (the religious Jewish leaders).

But the fact is that we haven't a clue how he was saying this stuff to these people. A book does not always properly convey the emotion behind the words and the way someone is saying something. And regardless of the fact that Jesus may have been harsh on them, He wasn't calling them idiots. He was simply exposing how they were using people and religion for their own gain. He warned them out of love to not do this. He would've been happy for them to trust and join Him. In fact, Nicodemas accepts Jesus later, because we're told that Nicodemas comes into the temple and defends Jesus at one point saying that He is correct and they are idiots to go against this man who is obviously from God. L. Ray Smith has a pride and arrogance and anger problem, and he uses knowledge to put people down and boost himself up. God says He resists the prideful, and wow, you can definitely see it in L. Ray Smith's teachings and his anger and arrogance. There is very little love in L. Ray Smith's stuff. Most of it is the equivalent of say: "If you say I'm right, then you're ok. If you say I'm wrong, you are an idiot." He only cares about being right. Everything else is secondary. There's no comprimise with him.

[BrianC]

I love that you addressed this before it came up. The one thing man tries to do which he cannot, is to see into the heart of his fellow man. God can see the heart and will of man as if on a TV screen. This is why it is difficult to answer questions like teenagers etc, being killed out of grace. It also answers that ALWAYS comes up. A favorite atheist argument is "What about tribes that have never heard of Jesus...how can God be just and let them into heaven, and how can he be just and NOT send them to hell."

Man needs to realize he is not God....

Faith Hope and Love......it may not be the MOST important...but faith is in the top 3...and thats a big deal. We don't HAVE to know everything.

Well, you want to hear something interesting about untouched tribes? Many untouched tribes have been found that have very similar beliefs like the Jews have in the Old Testament. One tribe even calls God Y'weh, and talks about ten rules that they used to have, but lost, and they used to keep them in a box that was at the center of their temple which they sacrificed things to Y'weh for reconsiliation. Y'weh is an awful lot liek Yahweh, the name of the Jewish God. And everything else reeks of the Old Jewish traditions that could not be understood by anyone...UNLESS they used to be Jews in the Old Testament. :)

See, there was a prophecy about the 10 tribes of Israel that split from the other two tribes of Israel. It says that the 10 tribes would be scattered among the nations, and eventually would be brought back into a new place. They're called Ephraim sometimes, and they're called Israel other times. Ephraim is prophecied to be planted in the west and come back from being scattered among the nations, while Judah is said to be scattered among the nations and will came back into her OWN land (Jerusalem) in the end. Judah as returned to Israel, but what about Ephraim. Her plesant place she was prophecied to be planted in is to the west and protects her by way of water. The United States, though I won't discuss the numerical prophecy that ends on 1776 (the year we became a nation) just happens to fit the bill. We are a nation, the only nation, founded on Judao-Christian values, and the only nation that has always protected Israel. Ephraim is prophecied to do this if I remember correctly.

Not only that, but one of the 10 tribes was named Levite. This was the tribe of priests. They were originally given 48 cities in the Bible by God as homes. The United States had 48 continguous states until the induction of Alaska and Hawaii in the 40's, I think it was. Also, the original 12 tribes of Israel actually turned into 13. The tribe of Joseph split into two tribes, because he had two sons, and the younger, Ephraim, was given the greater blessing and told that he would be a greater nation than the first born son, Menassah. How's that for free will? God always blesses the first born, yet God chose to bless the second born son because He forsaw the second son, Ephraim, becoming a greater people in the future. This is what Isaac (or Israel, I forget which) told the two boys and Jacob.

So, the 12 tribes became thirteen because one tribe split in two. Now check this out... The protestants get pursecuted by the Catholic church, and the pilgrams tell the story that God told them to get on ships and go to the New World. So, they didn't question God and they did what He said, not understanding why. Our nation is founded by Protestant reformers and we end up with 12 original colonies, but one of them is too big. Carolina. So, the decide to split the 12th colony in two. Carolina becomes North and South Carolina, and suddenly we have our first 13 colonies/states. Wow, the parallels are extremely interesting. And the 2500 year prophecy is interesting too. The 10 tribes are dispersed into the nations by Assyria in 724BC. 2500 years later is 1776AD exactly to the year! The prophecy gives a time span of 2500 years for the scattering of these people to be completed/finished (no more scattering). How cool is that?

Some say Assyria conquered the 10 tribes in 722BC, but that was the official date of the confirmation of full take over. If you read the account, it is two years prior to 722BC (which is 724BC) that the mass captivity happened as the Assyrians lead everyone out of the land and dispersed them into the nations. (Just think of BC as meaning "Backwards Counting" and the whole 2 years earlier and 722 to 724 makes sense. hehehehe)

Anyway, sorry I gave you all that info and didn't explain the actual prophecy, but all of that was to discuss the untouched tribes. It is very likely that the untouched tribes that have knowledge of God and His ways came from the original tribes of Israel when they were dispersed into the nations. Some were taken to the south, into Africa, apparently. How else would the know the old Jewish traditions so closely? They had the whole temple, sacrifices, 10 commandments and even God's name correct, just about. Too coincidental. So, the argument that the whole world hasn't heard Jesus name may not be completely true. Those tribes in Africa may very well have come up with tha foreknowledge from their ancestors and sort of lost it over time. And it would mean that they would be saved like the Old Testament Jews were saved, through the Old Covenant by faith in God (Abraham had faith in God and it was credited to Him as righteousness according to the New Testament...same for us as Christians...no difference). We have a new covenant, but it is the same, basically...we're saved through faith in God. God doesn't break His covenants.

And God has such an awesome plan, we cannot even imagine how awesome and complex and clever it is. To be able to disperse His people all over the world, into seclusion, and into nations, to witness to all parts of the world about the one true God...that's clever, don't you think? :)

[BrianC]

I'm sorry for all of these long posts. I need someone to knock me off the computer with a bat right now. Can't seem to stop myself... I'll give it a rest in this thread for a while. Hope it's not too much info... sorry...

[Fastback]

I'm sorry for all of these long posts. I need someone to knock me off the computer with a bat right now. Can't seem to stop myself... I'll give it a rest in this thread for a while. Hope it's not too much info... sorry...

No, thank you for writing such long posts, I am (as are others) reading and considering everything you write. :) Plus it helps a person to believe what they already know inside when they hear others say it too.

[flashstang04]

Well, you want to hear something interesting about untouched tribes? Many untouched tribes have been found that have very similar beliefs like the Jews have in the Old Testament. One tribe even calls God Y'weh, and talks about ten rules that they used to have, but lost, and they used to keep them in a box that was at the center of their temple which they sacrificed things to Y'weh for reconsiliation. Y'weh is an awful lot liek Yahweh, the name of the Jewish God. And everything else reeks of the Old Jewish traditions that could not be understood by anyone...UNLESS they used to be Jews in the Old Testament. :)

See, there was a prophecy about the 10 tribes of Israel that split from the other two tribes of Israel. It says that the 10 tribes would be scattered among the nations, and eventually would be brought back into a new place. They're called Ephraim sometimes, and they're called Israel other times. Ephraim is prophecied to be planted in the west and come back from being scattered among the nations, while Judah is said to be scattered among the nations and will came back into her OWN land (Jerusalem) in the end. Judah as returned to Israel, but what about Ephraim. Her plesant place she was prophecied to be planted in is to the west and protects her by way of water. The United States, though I won't discuss the numerical prophecy that ends on 1776 (the year we became a nation) just happens to fit the bill. We are a nation, the only nation, founded on Judao-Christian values, and the only nation that has always protected Israel. Ephraim is prophecied to do this if I remember correctly.

Not only that, but one of the 10 tribes was named Levite. This was the tribe of priests. They were originally given 48 cities in the Bible by God as homes. The United States had 48 continguous states until the induction of Alaska and Hawaii in the 40's, I think it was. Also, the original 12 tribes of Israel actually turned into 13. The tribe of Joseph split into two tribes, because he had two sons, and the younger, Ephraim, was given the greater blessing and told that he would be a greater nation than the first born son, Menassah. How's that for free will? God always blesses the first born, yet God chose to bless the second born son because He forsaw the second son, Ephraim, becoming a greater people in the future. This is what Isaac (or Israel, I forget which) told the two boys and Jacob.

So, the 12 tribes became thirteen because one tribe split in two. Now check this out... The protestants get pursecuted by the Catholic church, and the pilgrams tell the story that God told them to get on ships and go to the New World. So, they didn't question God and they did what He said, not understanding why. Our nation is founded by Protestant reformers and we end up with 12 original colonies, but one of them is too big. Carolina. So, the decide to split the 12th colony in two. Carolina becomes North and South Carolina, and suddenly we have our first 13 colonies/states. Wow, the parallels are extremely interesting. And the 2500 year prophecy is interesting too. The 10 tribes are dispersed into the nations by Assyria in 724BC. 2500 years later is 1776AD exactly to the year! The prophecy gives a time span of 2500 years for the scattering of these people to be completed/finished (no more scattering). How cool is that?

Some say Assyria conquered the 10 tribes in 722BC, but that was the official date of the confirmation of full take over. If you read the account, it is two years prior to 722BC (which is 724BC) that the mass captivity happened as the Assyrians lead everyone out of the land and dispersed them into the nations. (Just think of BC as meaning "Backwards Counting" and the whole 2 years earlier and 722 to 724 makes sense. hehehehe)

Anyway, sorry I gave you all that info and didn't explain the actual prophecy, but all of that was to discuss the untouched tribes. It is very likely that the untouched tribes that have knowledge of God and His ways came from the original tribes of Israel when they were dispersed into the nations. Some were taken to the south, into Africa, apparently. How else would the know the old Jewish traditions so closely? They had the whole temple, sacrifices, 10 commandments and even God's name correct, just about. Too coincidental. So, the argument that the whole world hasn't heard Jesus name may not be completely true. Those tribes in Africa may very well have come up with tha foreknowledge from their ancestors and sort of lost it over time. And it would mean that they would be saved like the Old Testament Jews were saved, through the Old Covenant by faith in God (Abraham had faith in God and it was credited to Him as righteousness according to the New Testament...same for us as Christians...no difference). We have a new covenant, but it is the same, basically...we're saved through faith in God. God doesn't break His covenants.

And God has such an awesome plan, we cannot even imagine how awesome and complex and clever it is. To be able to disperse His people all over the world, into seclusion, and into nations, to witness to all parts of the world about the one true God...that's clever, don't you think? :)


What a fantastic post! I would love to explore this more....


You know what would be fun... a mustang cruise where we met somewhere and studied all of this stuff...........

[Fastback]

What a fantastic post! I would love to explore this more....


You know what would be fun... a mustang cruise where we met somewhere and studied all of this stuff...........

Funny, I was thinking the same thing!

[flashstang04]

IT IS THE SPIRIT!!!!


nah just joking...we can still joke right? :D

[BrianC]

What a fantastic post! I would love to explore this more....


You know what would be fun... a mustang cruise where we met somewhere and studied all of this stuff...........

Did I hear someone say "cult?" lol j/k :D

You can read about that in a book called The False Prophet. The entire book will blow your mind. You can check all of the historical facts yourself online or in history books. Everything's accurate. Biblically, he's dead on too. He said he and his team of researchers took great care in being as historically accurate as possible so that they wouldn't mislead anyone or risk twisting the word of God in any way. I tested him on this, and sure enough...you can look up any of this stuff online.

Be careful of Wikipedia, though. Anyone can post information on there at will, and none of it is mediated unless it's a completely fake post. So, always double check Wikipedia. It may not always be completely accurate. You'll see some variances periodically.

Here's the book if you want to read it online for free or print it out here:
www.ellisskolfield.com (click on Books & Essays) Great book.

Also, you can order it on Amazon pretty cheaply.

I do not agree with 100% of what he says in the book. Just because it is impossible to refute his numerics in prophecy, because they're proveable...it doesn't mean that the non-numerical things he states are necessarily correct. I think he missed the mark on the seals, trumpets and vials, but the rest I think he's totally got the right interpretation. Irving Baxtor at www.endtime.com (radio show: Politics & Religion on FM1630 @ 3pm in Dallas) has the seals, trumpets and vials correct, but the numerics wrong. One has half the truth, and the other has the other half of the truth. But, that's just my opinion. You decide for yourselves. I don't want to be responsible for telling you something that's untrue and you buying into it without researching it yourself. lol

If you read The False Prophet, the big picture in the Bible and prophecy really starts to come together, and much is explained and makes sense. Very cool truths explained in that book. I like Ellis Skolfield. That was the first of his books I've read, and I had to read it a couple of times in order to get my old belief out of my head, because he'd completely proven his view and disproved mine, hands down.

He has another book that is even more awesome, in my opinion, called The Shining Man with Hurt Hands. Has nothing to do with prophecy. It's about people with Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD), and how he proves Jesus and that Jesus is God through working with Multiples (people with MPD). I've worked with multiples like he does in the book, and can confirm everything he says in the book is true. I have the chat sessions to prove it. Most of that book is chat sessions with multiples while the guy works with them online. It's very cool, but I don't want to give away anything. I don't like to spoil the storyline or any surprizes. Couldn't put the book down till I finished it the first time I read it. Read it straight through two more times. Been helping multiples every since. But I'm about to finish working with multiples for now. Have other things I need to learn and I'm devoting way too much time to them. This book can be found here for free:

www.fish-house.com/pdf/ShiningMan.pdf

Can print that too or read it online or order it on Amazon for less than $15 with shipping. Enjoy.

[Fastback]

Here is my favorite scripture to use when I am out of answers for how the Lord may allow some to come to heaven that have not heard the Good News or whatever:

John 5:25

25 <WOJ>“And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live.

Ofcourse, this could mean that "we" are the dead (until we hear then we are alive) but taken in context I get more of a sense of the literal grave:

24 <WOJ>“I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.</WOJ>
25 <WOJ>“And I assure you that the time is coming, indeed it’s here now, when the dead will hear my voice—the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live.</WOJ> 26 <WOJ>The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son.</WOJ> 27 <WOJ>And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.<SUP>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%20%205;&version=51;#fen-NLT-26202d)]</SUP></WOJ> 28 <WOJ>Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son,</WOJ> 29 <WOJ>and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.</WOJ> 30 <WOJ>I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.</WOJ>

</WOJ>

[Axianator]

Sorry, this is pure religion if I ever read it. I smelt a Jehovah Witness when I read that article...has JW beliefs spewed all through that (no trinity, denying the belief of Hell in some points, blah, blah, blah.)It is true that most of his views are consistent with Jehovah's Witnesses wrapped in Christianity.Just because two or more religions, belief systems, or lines of thought share similar teachings on one or more subjects, doesn't mean that said religions, belief systems, or lines of thought are one in the same thing. Consider the following questions and then tell me if you don't think they sound just the least bit ridiculous:

1. If I am a hardcore Southern Baptist but I deny the existence of the trinity, does that make me a Jehovah's Witness?

2. If my best friend is Buddhist and he shares a belief in "soul sleep", does that also make him a Seventh-Day Adventist?

3. If Osama bin Laden were a traditional Muslim and he believed that Jesus was the son of God, would that make him a Christian?

4. If I walk into a McDonald's and eat a Big Mac, does that make me a hamburger?

Again, if you had read any of Ray's email comments or even his articles, you would see that, like myself, he openly and deliberately does not align himself with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or any other organized cult or religion.

I am also disappointed to see how readily some people will judge and dismiss another's work out-of-hand while applying a generic, unwarranted label to that person without even taking the trouble to cite the problematic references in question.

What I am looking for is a view from personal believers and NOT from a religious stance to answer my question. Why don't you state your personal beliefs and not from another person this time...Before I continue writing myself, I should probably state the following which should have been addressed in my original posting:

STANDARD DISCLAIMER:

1. I am not here to coerce, convert, or attack anyone.
2. I am not always correct.
3. I do not have all the answers.

Now that that's out of the way, I will say that, personally, my own beliefs are still in a state of flux.

I spent much of my childhood in eastern Tennessee being raised in an Assembly of God church, replete with many well-meaning people who spoke in tongues, danced in the aisles, and believed in the laying on of hands as a form of healing. After moving to Tulsa in 1995, my puberty was further colored by Word of Faith giants like Kenneth Hagin (Senior and Junior) and Oral Roberts while my mother attended RHEMA Bible College in Broken Arrow. Once my family made their final move to Fort Worth in 1998, the Word of Faith continued to dominate my life as I was exposed to Kenneth Copeland, Keith Moore, Jerry Savelle, Jesse Duplantis, Billye Brim, and many others from the Word of Faith camp. My entire upbringing has also had the misfortunate of being influenced by the likes of Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Rod Parsley, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Rodney Howard-Browne, Paul Crouch, and the entire collective group at TBN.

In short, I am no stranger to charismania, the Word of Faith, or modern Christianity.

That said, I quote from and link to Ray's material because, at this point in my life, we share many of the same beliefs. As a result, it is easier and more efficient for both parties if I simply provide a link to the appropriate paper, article, or email excerpt rather than spending countless hours cutting-and-pasting or even retyping entire pages of material within a single forum post. If you want to debate or discuss a specific portion of his material, then I would welcome such a discussion. However, I am not going to paraphrase and duplicate every word that he has already been written just because someone is too afraid or too lazy to read it from another website. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

It's funny, because when you get his e-mail, it says, "He's very busy responding to tons of e-mails and working on the site, so he may not be able to get back to you, or it may take a while." (Paraphrased, of course) Yet, when I e-mail him with a really good argument, he gets it in literally less than an hour or two and e-mails me back with a retort. If you give him good scripturally based arguments that disprove his own beliefs, he's quick to get back to you. Everyone else that doesn't have a good Bible knowledge, he doesn't have time for, or he uses their e-mails on the site to show, "Look here! I owned this guy!" Yeah, if I played an online game with other people and I only showed my games where I made good scores against less experienced players, then I would look like I was good at that game too. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif You do realize that if you're asking him about something on which he has already written in another paper, he will very likely direct you to read that paper first before he converses with you about it through email. Honestly, I can't blame him for that. If I had written a volume of material and people were asking me the same questions which had already been covered in said material, I would not have the time, patience, or finger stamina to retype or even copy-and-paste every piece of information into inordinate amounts of email every day.

Of course, I'm not saying that all of your questions and comments were already addressed in existing material. I just want to make people aware that this is the hard reality for someone in his position. It's not entirely unlike the treatment that often besets a noobie to one of our automotive forums. Whenever they ask a question that has been repeatedly asked in the past (and to which there is already an answer), what is the common response?

"USE THE SEARCH BUTTON."

He'll never post the e-mail arguments I sent him, because he couldn't properly debate them and finally said, "I'm sorry, but I just don't have time for you."You do realize that Ray posts almost every email that he receives to the bible-truths forum through his webmaster and/or forum moderators, right?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/

What we agree on:
Ultimately God Chooses

What we disagree on:
That God uses logic due to foreknowledge in His selection process
That the foreknowledge of the man has anything to do with God's selection

We agree that God is the first decision maker in the process, and we agree that His decision is ultimately the one that means anything.

We do not agree on His means of selection/choosing. If God can see into the future, and wants to take the path that will save the most people, the logical thing to do, throughout history, is to select all of the people that you know are most submissive to allow you to spread your word through them to get the message out to more people.Before we go any further, I think I need to further clarify what Brian is saying here so that we're all on common ground in any future discussions. For the record, I am not equating "free will" with our power to choose. I think we can all agree that we all have the obvious and awesome ability to arrive at and make our own choices. When I speak of "free will", I am referring to the impossible ability for man to make his own "uncaused choices".

AGAIN, in my book:

CHOICE = THE POWER TO CHOOSE
FREE WILL = THE POWER TO MAKE UNCAUSED CHOICES

Now let me offer this analogy. Salvation is a free gift offered to all. If I stood in a room full of 100 people with 100 $1 dollar bills and told everyone that all they had to do to receive the $1 bill was take it...and only 50 people came and took it and the other 50 were left without the gift, Does that make me unjust or unloving? The same gift was offered to all and it was my will that all come and take it. There was enough for all to have an equal share. Only 50 chose to receive what was offered to the 100. The other 50 willfully rejected the free gift. I cannot force anyone to take it. I cannot change the will of any man. I can only offer.As a man yourself, you are correct: you ultimately cannot directly manipulate another man's will and force him to accept your gift.

However, you are not God, and you do not possess His power, His mind, or His will. God the Father is able to work ALL that He wishes at any time for any reason. He does not need our permission, and He ultimately does not need our consent. If He wills that someone is ready to accept the Truth of Who He is or what He has done for us, then that is entirely His prerogative. Paul highlighted this point nicely when he gave us the analogy of the potter and the clay in Rom 9:18-21:

"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming? FOR WHO HAS WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?' O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?"

As the clay in this scenario, we have no right and no say in what ultimately happens in our life. Yes, we obviously have the power to make choices that are presented to us. HOWEVER, those choices were not without CAUSE. This is a proven and undeniable scientific edict which is also known as the law of "cause and effect," which states that you cannot have an effect without a cause. As damaging as it may be to some people's pride to admit it, this same scientific principle also applies to us mere mortals:

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." (Jer. 13:23)

Paul also reminds us in Eph 1:11 that we were "predestined [that doesn't sound like "free will" to me] according to the purpose of Him who works ALL things after the counsel of His OWN WILL..."

And just what is God's will for mankind? Among other things, Paul tells us that:

"Who [God] will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4)

"...we have put our hope in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL men, and ESPECIALLY of those who believe." (1 Tim 4:10)

Did you see that? Paul told us through his letter to Timothy that God, Who "is the Savior of ALL men...WILL have ALL men to be saved". How awesome is that? Do you honestly think that God will allow His own creation to foil His masterful plan and reduce the salvation of ALL humanity to a weak wish or whimsical notion? I should hope not.

It would be unjust for God to force anyone to take something they didn't wantDo you have scripture and verse to support that claim?

Because God is Holy, Righteous, and Just, He must judge sin. The penalty for sin is death...If we don't know the law that says not to murder and we murder anyway, are we any less guilty? If you didn't realize the speed limit was 50 and you were ticketed for driving 70, is the Police Officer unjust?While the answer is an obvious "no" to both questions, I think that you're missing the real point of God's judgment. Godly judgment is not about punishment or torture. Godly judgment is about CORRECTION or SETTING THINGS RIGHT. Among the many scriptures on this subject, I think Isa. 26:9 is among the best to illustrate this point:

"When your JUDGMENTS come upon [or 'are in'] the earth, the people of the world learn RIGHTEOUSNESS."

I also think that this email from Ray to one of his readers does a great job of succinctly explaining our shared viewpoint on the purpose of God's judgments. Not only that, but this letter also speaks to Brian's complaints about Ray's personality by showing that he is not always "scathingly vile" every moment of the day and with everyone he converses:


Dear Rod:

Thank you for your email and kind words. I am glad that you found at least some agreement with what I teach from Scripture and your own findings.

Actually I have had a New World Translation for forty-five years now.

However, let me say this (and I certainly hope this will not be the least bit offensive to you), I very seldom use the NWT. I think that I have quoted from it but two times in my papers on the bible-truths site. Although the Christian world as a whole despise the NWT, their own King James is very similar, with the one exception of most of mankind being NOT SAVED by "eternal annihilation" rather than "eternal torture." Either way, both teach that God will utterly fail in saving all of His children. This does not speak well for the most powerful and most loving Father in the universe!

The Watch Tower does, however, publish a book that I use ALL THE TIME. It is very helpful in MANY places. It is the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT. Do you have a copy? Have you not notice how DIFFERENT it is from the NWT? Maybe just one example will put you on the Rod to a whole new world of Scriptural Truth discovery.

Matt. 25:46, NWT:

"And these will depart into EVERLASTING CUTTING-OFF, but the righteous ones into EVERLASTING LIFE."

This translation is very similar to the KJV:

"And these shall go away unto EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into LIFE ETERNAL."

The only real different in the NWT's translation of the compound, "cutting- off" instead of "punishment."

Now then, let's check the Emphatic Diaglott:

"And these shall go forth to the AIONIAN CUTTNG OFF; but the righteous to AIONIAN LIFE."

This is a MUCH improvement over the King James and the NWT. The Greek word "aionios" or "aionion" never EVER means "everlasting" or "eternal." NEVER. For proof of this read the first ten pages of my letter to John Hagee in the paper "EXPOSING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT" on my site.

The Watch Tower's Diaglott has this word translated CORRECTLY--it is "aionian" or "eonian" or (if we must use a compound, "age-lasting" or "age- abiding").

But, although the Watch Tower's Diaglot has "eonian" it TOO, misses the mark by using "cutting-off" to translate the Greek word: "kolasis" which comes from "kolaza" which means "to CHASTISE." "Cutting off" is an aspect of this word, however, it is NOT it's primary meaning. It can carry the connotation of "cutting-off" (as in PRUNING A TREE), if the desired result is to IMPROVE rather than destroy or annihilate. This word is used only a couple of times in all the Greek Manuscripts. Here is the other place it is used:

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has TORMENT [Greek: kolasis]..." (I John 4:17).

Is John really telling us that "fear" causes "CUTTING OFF"?? That's absurd.

The proper translation of the word "kolasis" is neither "punishment" OR "cutting-off"--it means "CHASTENING OR CHASTISEMENT" -- to bring about correction, making something RIGHT -- RIGHTEOUSNESS: God's judgements (chastisements) bring about RIGHTEOUSNESS in the WICKED. That IS the result of God's Judgments. Just for curiosity's sake I checked the NWT translation of Isaiah 26:9 with regards to what happens when God really begins to send forth His JUDGMENTS into this earth:

"...because when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn" (NWT).

Here, even the King James is a better and more accurate translation:

"...for when Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD [all of them] WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (KGV).

YES THEY WILL. They will NOT be ETERNALLY annihilated, neither will they be ETERNALLY CUT-OFF.

There is a world of difference between the words "punish" and "chastise." Chastise carries to meaning of CORRECTING, MAKING RIGHT, ETC. Therefore, it can NEVER EVER BE EVERLASTING OR ETERNAL, as anything that is eternal NEVER fulfills its goal of "correcting or making right"!!

The reason most translations do not translate this verse in Matt. 25:46 correctly is not because it is that difficult to translate; it is not. It is because of the RELIGIOUS BIAS of the translators. And so the King James makes it appear that people will be "PUNISHED [tortured for eternity in fire) and the NWT make it appear as though it is "eternal," however, not eternal conscious suffering, but rather eternal cutting-off from God or literally, eternal annihilation. BOTH ARE DEAD WRONG!

This verse should be translated as follows:

"And these shall be coming away into CHASTENING EONIAN, yet the just into LIFE EONIAN."

And that is the meaning of the Greek words in this verse. It's just that theologians cannot then UNDERSTAND this verse. It doesn't fit the preconceived ideas of the Christians, nor does it fit the preconceived ideas of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The argument on both sides goes like this: How can we have "ETERNAL life" if it is the same period of time that the wicked are chastised, if that chastisement COMES TO AN END?

The answer is quite simple and clear, Rod, if we will but listen to the Scriptures carefully. The Scriptures NOWHERE promise believers "everlasting or eternal life." WHAT? That sounds like blasphemy AND HERESY, doesn't it?

What the Scriptures do promise believers is: (1) Aionian, eonian, or age- abiding, life, AND (2) IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION. Immortality has nothing to do with TIME. Immortality does not mean "everlasting" or "eternal" or any other word or combination of words denoting ENDLESS TIME. Immortality mean DEATH=LESS=NESS. Incapable of dying. NEVER to die. So it will be "everlasting," but the WORD DESCRIBING IT DOES NOT MEAN EVERLASTING.

And so the two statements of Matt. 25:46 are in perfect harmony with one another, even though NEITHER ONE IS SPEAKING OF ETERNAL OR ENDLESS TIME!

Jesus promised "eonian life" to those who "OVERCOME." They are to rule WITH Christ as the manifest SONS OF GOD (The BODY of Christ), who will be the "saviours" promised back in Hosea, that will be instrumental in brining God's judgments to all the inhabitants of this earth, both in the millenium and in the second resurrection.

This is just ONE verse of Scripture, Rod. But both the Christians and the Jehovah's Witnesses CARRY THIS ERROR FORWARD IN THEIR ENTIRE TRANSLATION OF THE SCRIPTURES! BOTH ARE DEAD WRONG. God IS THE SAVIOUR of the world, not the weak and wishful "potential" Saviour of the world. This is a TRUTH of GRAND PROPORTIONS, Rod, that you will have to come to grips with if you are to ever truly appreciate God and His Sovereign Power and Love.

GOD WILL NO MORE ANNIHILATE MOST OF HIS CHILDREN FOR ALL ETERNITY, [ANY MORE] THAN HE WOULD PUNISH OR TORTURE THEM IN FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!

After reading the ten pages I suggested above, get back with me on this, Rod. And, Yes, you may send me your paper when you are finished with it, and I will be happy to read it. I hope nothing I said in this email is offensive to you? Let me hear from you. Okay? Good!

God be with you,

Ray
That is the miracle of it, and we can only TRY to describe it this side of Heaven. He knows what you will choose, but at the same time puts Himself outside your loop of free will.Would you mind clarifying the highlighted double-talk above?

It is a tough concept for a human...The concept is not tough at all--it's all plainly laid out in scripture. You simply have to lay aside your man-made doctrine and approach the scriptures with an open mind before you can begin to see the truth.

...but just because He knows does not mean that we have no choice...Of course we have a choice. However, as I've shown with my severely brief treatment of your earlier comments above and my link to Ray's papers on the subject, our choices are NOT without CAUSE. Furthermore, if our choices are not without cause, just Who or What do you think is ultimately responsible for CAUSING those choices?

God created us not knowing evil at first. All we know was good.God created ADAM and EVE without the knowledge of evil. The same does not apply to us today or for ANYONE born after Adam and Eve. Because of their shared sin, we ALL have the privilege of knowing sin and committing evil from the moment we are born:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it [or 'who can cure it']?" (Jer. 17:9)

Just became He made you doesn't mean He causes you to act a certain way.Actually, He does. Individual personality is but one of many of the methods whereby God influences (or CAUSES) our decisions and enacts His plan for mankind.

Again, at the risk of being verbose within this thread alone and to save my own fingers extra typing, I would instead refer you to Ray's papers on free will for more information on this subject. If you have questions or take issue with anything that he says, post those specific sections here and we can discuss them further.

Please allow me to show the incredibly flawed and twisted ways that L. Ray Smith argues his points. This will also show the dangers of not knowing the Bible for yourself and the dangers of trusting man instead of trusting God to discern truth to you through studying the Bible. It will also show how easy it is by knowing a little about the Bible to refute arguments such as the free will thing.As my friend, Brian, I needn't remind you that I know the bible for myself and I do not place my trust in any man. Ray's writings simply served to answer many of the questions with which I had been dealing my whole life. I found his site on my own, and I have come to agree with many (not ALL) of his teachings "on my own dime and on my own time". While I appreciate you looking out for me, and while I really do welcome intelligent conversation and debate on subjects such as these, I do not need you to presumptuously tell me how much or how little I know about the bible. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

...presumed free will...The only presumption about "free will" here was on man's part, not God's. Show me scripture and verse where the Bible actually speaks to man's phantom "free will" and we can talk. You are building your argument about free will on your own thoughts and presumptions without the basis of any scripture.

The Bible wreeks of free will...Do you have scripture and verse to support that supposition?

And God has such an awesome plan...How awesome can His plan truly be when you and almost every other fundamentalist Christian have consigned billions of our fellow humans to an eternal hellhole of fire and torture which serves no remedial value or Godly purpose?

Personally, I find it MUCH more awesome and consider it much more exciting to believe that God will save ALL of mankind from themselves. In fact, it would be easy for God to needlessly torture or even annihilate a vile, evil, and wretched person like Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler. The REAL accomplishment comes from transforming someone of that caliber into a real godly saint.

Of course, most people think that God will utterly fail in this task, being held captive by man's supposed ability to make uncaused choices that thwart and ultimately derail God's plan and intentions. If you thought God worked wonders with the evil criminal Saul on the road to Damascus, just WAIT until you see what happens when God works His magic on all of wicked humanity in the Lake of Fire.

I love that you addressed this before it came up. The one thing man tries to do which he cannot, is to see into the heart of his fellow man. God can see the heart and will of man as if on a TV screen.While I agree with your points, it would seem that Brian has ignored this little piece of advice himself by attributing names such as "scathingly vial (sic)", "angry", "arrogant", "prideful", and "idiot" to Ray without giving him any benefit of the doubt. While I realize that we are all subject to passionate moments of weakness while discussing these types of subjects, I have to ask Brian, "where is the true love of which you continually speak?"

[Casper]

Interesting to see the discussion. From an athiest mindset I offer the following, (possibly inadequate) analogy:

If I forbid my son from maturbating, and then catch him whacking off, is it his fault for defying me, or my fault for being unreasonable?

If the former, then one must ask why a perfect being would create such a paradoxical instinct. If the latter, then God is not without fault, possibly by design.

[Fastback]

Interesting to see the discussion. From an athiest mindset I offer the following, (possibly inadequate) analogy:

If I forbid my son from maturbating, and then catch him whacking off, is it his fault for defying me, or my fault for being unreasonable?

If the former, then one must ask why a perfect being would create such a paradoxical instinct. If the latter, then God is not without fault, possibly by design.

I see the predicament, the lesson is that we are not capable of achieving but must receive grace...how else can we be humble to the Almighty, than to know the difference, fail, and then receive grace and therefore joy. It truly is a load off.

28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

[BrianC]

1. If I am a hardcore Southern Baptist but I deny the existence of the trinity, does that make me a Jehovah's Witness?

2. If my best friend is Buddhist and he shares a belief in "soul sleep", does that also make him a Seventh-Day Adventist?

3. If Osama bin Laden were a traditional Muslim and he believed that Jesus was the son of God, would that make him a Christian?

4. If I walk into a McDonald's and eat a Big Mac, does that make me a hamburger?


These are inadmissible arguments, because much is known about all of the parties in the examples, so of course you would not imply they are one thing or another. I think what people were saying is that L. Ray Smith's beliefs have many similarities to the JW's. That's all. No other accusations were being made. I find no offense if someone says that my beliefs are similar to the beliefs of some denomination. If it's a true statement, then I have no problem admitting the fact. So what if I have similar beliefs to an existing denomination? Not sure why offense was taken here, that's all...


Again, if you had read any of Ray's email comments or even his articles, you would see that, like myself, he openly and deliberately does not align himself with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or any other organized cult or religion.


Of course he doesn't. He doesn't share their beliefs. It was only said that he has SIMILAR beliefs. Not the same beliefs.


I am also disappointed to see how readily some people will judge and dismiss another's work out-of-hand while applying a generic, unwarranted label to that person without even taking the trouble to cite the problematic references in question.

I know some did make comments like what you described above. I, personally, have read for hours and hours and hours and hours on L. Ray Smith's site, and I know tons about what he believes.


I spent much of my childhood in eastern Tennessee being raised in an Assembly of God church, replete with many well-meaning people who spoke in tongues, danced in the aisles, and believed in the laying on of hands as a form of healing. After moving to Tulsa in 1995, my puberty was further colored by Word of Faith giants like Kenneth Hagin (Senior and Junior) and Oral Roberts while my mother attended RHEMA Bible College in Broken Arrow. Once my family made their final move to Fort Worth in 1998, the Word of Faith continued to dominate my life as I was exposed to Kenneth Copeland, Keith Moore, Jerry Savelle, Jesse Duplantis, Billye Brim, and many others from the Word of Faith camp. My entire upbringing has also had the misfortunate of being influenced by the likes of Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Rod Parsley, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Rodney Howard-Browne, Paul Crouch, and the entire collective group at TBN.

In short, I am no stranger to charismania, the Word of Faith, or modern Christianity.

So, you have been scarred by the idiots on TV? I cannot stand to watch the TV evangelists. There are VERY few that are worth anything and actually have the right motives and know the truth. VERY few.

I have a friend that was also scarred by religion. Two or three churches screwed him over, and one was a church that he created from the ground up. Prior to this, the guy was awesome when it came to understanding truths. He did not learn from churches, but learned for himself and trusted God to show Him truth. But once a couple of churches scarred him, it completely messed up his ability to find truth in the Bible and he started going into fringe beliefs due to his hate for religion and churches as a whole.

I do not like religion, and I do not like legalism. I do not like how much of it is run and I do not like the false doctrine that saturates the churches. But I'm not upset or angry at them. I do not go off on them. I love them just like everyone else, because I completely understand how you teach what you have always been taught or what you learn on your own, and that's just the way it is. They have not really searched deep for themselves to try to disprove their own beliefs. God does not want people to be hateful toward churches. You can have friendly debates and not speak ill of one another.

The reason I get upset with L. Ray Smith is because much of his webpage bashes people and he insists that he is the say-all, end-all when it comes to the truth, and no one else has a clue. He is extremely arrogant and prideful. I know first hand, because I've flat out disproven him in e-mail. And when he couldn't refute what I was saying, he just said, "I'm too busy to continue this debate."


You do realize that if you're asking him about something on which he has already written in another paper, he will very likely direct you to read that paper first before he converses with you about it through email. Honestly, I can't blame him for that. If I had written a volume of material and people were asking me the same questions which had already been covered in said material, I would not have the time, patience, or finger stamina to retype or even copy-and-paste every piece of information into inordinate amounts of email every day.

Of course, I'm not saying that all of your questions and comments were already addressed in existing material. I just want to make people aware that this is the hard reality for someone in his position. It's not entirely unlike the treatment that often besets a noobie to one of our automotive forums. Whenever they ask a question that has been repeatedly asked in the past (and to which there is already an answer), what is the common response?

"USE THE SEARCH BUTTON."


Oh, this was not something he had covered, because I had read all of his stuff on the Trinity before I went into the conversation. I was quite well prepared as to what his arguments were. And immediately I was able to find the flaws in his argument. This is why he responded to me immediately...because I was a challenge. He couldn't refute my arguments, though, and ended the e-mail contact by saying he was too busy and had more important things to do. Only took a few quick e-mails for him to give up.


You do realize that Ray posts almost every email that he receives to the bible-truths forum through his webmaster and/or forum moderators, right?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/

I went to the link you gave and used the search to find my emails. Gee, imagine that...he didn't post my e-mails on the forum. Most likely because he couldn't give a refute and was left speechless and without a rebuttle. He only posts the emails where he doesn't get owned.


Before we go any further, I think I need to further clarify what Brian is saying here so that we're all on common ground in any future discussions. For the record, I am not equating "free will" with our power to choose. I think we can all agree that we all have the obvious and awesome ability to arrive at and make our own choices. When I speak of "free will", I am referring to the impossible ability for man to make his own "uncaused choices".

AGAIN, in my book:

CHOICE = THE POWER TO CHOOSE
FREE WILL = THE POWER TO MAKE UNCAUSED CHOICES


This is about symantics. And this is also about how you want to define a specific word to meet your beliefs. And when I get to the things futher in this e-mail that are complete misuses of scripture, I will address them to show the mispercetions.


As a man yourself, you are correct: you ultimately cannot directly manipulate another man's will and force him to accept your gift.

However, you are not God, and you do not possess His power, His mind, or His will. God the Father is able to work ALL that He wishes at any time for any reason. He does not need our permission, and He ultimately does not need our consent. If He wills that someone is ready to accept the Truth of Who He is or what He has done for us, then that is entirely His prerogative. Paul highlighted this point nicely when he gave us the analogy of the potter and the clay in Rom 9:18-21:

"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming? FOR WHO HAS WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?' O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?"


It is VERY important to note that "hardening" implies that you are having to alter someone's will. Free will. God is "pushing someone's buttons" in order to get the desired results out of them. If someone does not submit to God's purpose, He will use them for His purpose whether they know it or not. They, at any time, can choose God out of free will. But He knows they will not choose Him.

The important part of this is that if God HARDENS the heart of the man in order to get the desired results, then God cannot, in fact, just do whatever He wants and control people. If He could do that, He would simply make angels possess people all the time and carry out His will. But God has to operate through our free will for some reason. Why? Because God's placed some laws that He, Himself, cannot break in order to retain perfection and holiness.

It is important to note that even though I give a convincing argument, and we could all continue to give convincing arguments, none of us knows exactly how this works. Why? Because the verses quoted can all be interpreted differently. This needs to be demonstrated.


As the clay in this scenario, we have no right and no say in what ultimately happens in our life. Yes, we obviously have the power to make choices that are presented to us. HOWEVER, those choices were not without CAUSE. This is a proven and undeniable scientific edict which is also known as the law of "cause and effect," which states that you cannot have an effect without a cause. As damaging as it may be to some people's pride to admit it, this same scientific principle also applies to us mere mortals:

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." (Jer. 13:23)

This verse is not about free will. It is saying that if you have the sin nature, you will operate in sin. That's just a fact of life. If your nature is sin, you are going to operate in sin. How can you do good if you don't understand how to do good properly? Or, you can use the argument that Jesus says NO one is good except the Father, and so it is impossible for us to do good apart from God. And we're told that everything good comes from Jesus.


Paul also reminds us in Eph 1:11 that we were "predestined [that doesn't sound like "free will" to me] according to the purpose of Him who works ALL things after the counsel of His OWN WILL..."


Oh, now things need to be put into context.

Eph 1:11
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

We get more info here in Romans, because it says "for those whom He FOREKNEW, He also predestined..." So, the reason He predestined someone was because He first "foreknew" them.

In my theory of free will and predestination, I reason this out logically to the root of how God chooses and the Bible is never in conflict with itself.

Jesus says He chose us before He laid the foundations of the earth, and we know God knows us better than we know ourselves and He can see the future. Therefore, God looks ahead and knows the hearts of everyone, and logically, He chooses those that He KNOWS will choose Him, and does not choose the people that will not choose Him. Very simple. This is how you keep free will intact and working with predestination.

Besides, when you think about this logically, and put yourself in God's place, you can figure this one out: If you are God, and you see the future, and know exactly who will choose you and who won't, and you are intent on getting your purpose done, you logically choose the people who will choose you and submit to doing your will in order to have your purpose fulfilled the best, easiest, most efficient way. It makes no sense for God to randomly choose people, or to choose people that are not going to accept Him. We know God is wise, and this is the wisest decision with all things considered. It makes the most sense, too.



And just what is God's will for mankind? Among other things, Paul tells us that:

"Who [God] will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4)

What happened to L. Ray Smith using big scriptures in context?

Let me list out what this verse says so the context is more clear:

1 Tim 2:3-6
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6who gave Himself as a ransom for all [men], the testimony given at the proper time.

Now, let's first acknowledge that we are simply told that God WANTS to save all men. We are not told that He HAS saved all men.

Also, let's acknowledge that it states Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for ALL men, but that does not mean He saved all men. What it's saying is that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to save ANYONE that wanted salvation. There is no statement here that Jesus saved everyone...just a statement about how His sacrifice was sufficient to save anyone and everyone if need be.

We also read that God would have it that all come to an understanding of Christ and be saved. However, we know that doesn't happen, and therefore, we prove that God's will or wants don't always come to pass. We know that God's purpose will happen, because He forsaw it and knew exactly how He would be able to effect events to come out in His favor. It's easy to look ahead and figure out what you're going to do and KNOW you will do it when the time comes to shape events and have your purpose happen. But if God always carried out His will, then He would make everyone come to an understanding of Christ and be saved. He doesn't do that, though.

We also read, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Well, I thought God's will was that everyone come to an understanding of Christ and be saved? How come everyone isn't called AND chosen? Well, I guess because God's wants and what God actually DOES on the earth are not always the same. God wants to save us all, yet He says that few are chosen. Why? Because He has to deal with our free will, and knows many will not choose Him. Regardless of what signs He shows people, there are some that will ALWAYS refuse to accept Him. Period. He cannot control them. He can only push their buttons to use them for His purpose in His infinite foreknowledge. Why? Because He doesn't infringe upon our power of choice and free will. We have a free will. Sure, our buttons can be pushed, but ultimately, we must still choose. He just happens to know what we'll choose in advance. It doesn't mean He's in control of us. It just means He is excellent at playing this game. :)


"...we have put our hope in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL men, and ESPECIALLY of those who believe." (1 Tim 4:10)

Did you see that? Paul told us through his letter to Timothy that God, Who "is the Savior of ALL men...WILL have ALL men to be saved". How awesome is that? Do you honestly think that God will allow His own creation to foil His masterful plan and reduce the salvation of ALL humanity to a weak wish or whimsical notion? I should hope not.


I absolutely hate quoting other people's arguments, but I'm going to do it now. Here is an explanation just to show you that there are many ways to view this passage, and this is one of them.

_______________
II. NONSOTERIOLOGlCAL-SOTERlOLOGICAL INTERPRETATION (FREE GRACE SALVATION).

A. This is the correct interpretation. It is found by making a thorough study of the term "Saviour" (in both its noun and verb forms1) in the context of the chapter, the epistle, the New Testament and the Old Testament.2 The final phrase "specially of those that believe" clearly Indicates that the term is here given a twofold application. Of all men God is the Saviour, but of some men, namely, believers, He is the Saviour in a deeper, more glorious sense than He is of others.
This clearly implies that when He Is called the Saviour of all men, this cannot mean that He imparts to all everlasting life, as He does to believers. The term "Saviour," then, must have a meaning which we today generally do not immediately attach to it. And that is exactly the cause of the difficulty. Often In the Old Testament, the term meant "to deliver — (verbal form) or deliverer (nominal form)" — both with reference to men and God (cf. Judg. 3:9; II Kings 13:5; Neh. 9:27; Ps. 25:5; 106:21). Also, in the New Testament, reference is made to the Old Testament where God delivered Israel from the oppression of Pharaoh for He had been the Saviour of all, but specially those who believed. With the latter, and with them alone, He was "well pleased" (I Cor. 10:5). All leave Egypt; not all enter Canaan." POINT: In both the Old and New Testaments the term "Saviour" is often used to speak of God's providential preservation or deliverance which extends to all men without exception. (Cf. Ps. 36:6; 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 17:25, 28.) Moreover, God also causes His gospel of salvation to be earnestly proclaimed to all men without distinction; that is, to men from every race and nation (Matt. 28:19). Truly the kindness (providence or common grace) of God extends to all. But even the circle of those to whom the message of salvation is proclaimed is wider than those who receive it by a true saving faith.

B. Conclusion. A paraphrase of what Paul is teaching in I Timothy 4:10 is this: "We have our hope set on the living God, and in this hope we shall not be disappointed, for not only is He a kind God, hence the Saviour (i.e., preserver or deliverer in a providential, non-soteriological sense) of all men, showering blessings upon them, but He is, in a very special sense, the Saviour (in a soteriological sense) of those who by faith embrace Him and His promise, for to them He imparts salvation, everlasting life in all its fulness.
_____________

As you can see, there are always different ways to look at passages and interpret them. Wordage, and understanding pure definitions of words really makes a big difference in some passages too.



While the answer is an obvious "no" to both questions, I think that you're missing the real point of God's judgment. Godly judgment is not about punishment or torture. Godly judgment is about CORRECTION or SETTING THINGS RIGHT. Among the many scriptures on this subject, I think Isa. 26:9 is among the best to illustrate this point:

"When your JUDGMENTS come upon [or 'are in'] the earth, the people of the world learn RIGHTEOUSNESS."


Just because people "learn" righteousness doesn't mean they are made righteous. Christians are made righteous, because our spirit is birthed of the Holy Spirit, and our new spirit is unstainable by sin. So, we are MADE righteous by God. These people in the end are learning righteousness through judgements being poured out on the earth. This is not speaking of the judgement of how people lived their lives, though. That's a completely different type of judgement, and it is definitely not being spoken of here. This is referring to the 7 vials of God's wrath being poured out on the earth; judgements. Don't make it say something it doesn't say.


I also think that this email from Ray to one of his readers does a great job of succinctly explaining our shared viewpoint on the purpose of God's judgments. Not only that, but this letter also speaks to Brian's complaints about Ray's personality by showing that he is not always "scathingly vile" every moment of the day and with everyone he converses:


Never said that Ray is scathingly vile "every moment of the day with everyone he converses with." What I said is that he's scathingly vile. At his core, he is very prideful and arrogant and uses knowledge to put people down and lift himself up. I have seen him be civil with me. I have seen him be friendly with others. But I've seen that deep down, when his pride gets attacked, he jumps all over people in a very mean spirited way. Don't think that's very Jesus-like. Jesus didn't have pride issues and didn't tear people down attempting to attack His pride (or the lack there of).

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow...

[BrianC]

The concept is not tough at all--it's all plainly laid out in scripture. You simply have to lay aside your man-made doctrine and approach the scriptures with an open mind before you can begin to see the truth.


Not always a good idea to assume someone has "man-made doctrines." Maybe he came to his conclusions on his own through his own studies?


Of course we have a choice. However, as I've shown with my severely brief treatment of your earlier comments above and my link to Ray's papers on the subject, our choices are NOT without CAUSE. Furthermore, if our choices are not without cause, just Who or What do you think is ultimately responsible for CAUSING those choices?


This is a very overly simplified argument and cause is being inaccurately placed here. God does not necessarily cause you to make all of your choices in life. You are assuming that this is the case. It is better to stick with what the Bible says, and anything that is outside of clearly being spelled out in scripture should be stated as theory and not truth. We cannot possibly understand God or if or how He may cause things to happen, or to what degree. He could have a system setup that NONE of us understand or have any clue about, and we're sitting here trying to contemplate it with what little bit of knowledge we have on it. Theories like this can get very dangerous when not proplery designed and layed out.

I admit that my view could be wrong, because I'm not God. But I also show that my view makes the most sense, logically, and does not ever contradict itself in the Bible. That's why I beleive it's correct. But it is still theory. No one knows how it all works for sure.


God created ADAM and EVE without the knowledge of evil. The same does not apply to us today or for ANYONE born after Adam and Eve. Because of their shared sin, we ALL have the privilege of knowing sin and committing evil from the moment we are born:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it [or 'who can cure it']?" (Jer. 17:9)

Who can cure it? I believe the passage speaks quite well on its own without someone adding in a supposed "better translation." The passage, with the "cure" translation, no longer makes sense. This is someone's attempt to make the Bible conform to their beliefs instead of conforming their beliefs to the Bible.


Actually, He does. Individual personality is but one of many of the methods whereby God influences (or CAUSES) our decisions and enacts His plan for mankind.


He did not MAKE our personality. We develope a personality due to how we're raised and which parents we take after. Sins are passed down through the father, and we pick up other sins on our own, and sin actually effects your personality (quite a bit, depending). We choose the person we want to be, and our personality is our making. We must choose to be dry, or choose to be excited. Why? Because we allow ourselves to act the way we do, and therefore, we choose to allow our personality to be what it is. God KNOWS our personality and will do things to effect our decisions in life, if necessary for our own good, sure. But He is not controlling us.



As my friend, Brian, I needn't remind you that I know the bible for myself and I do not place my trust in any man. Ray's writings simply served to answer many of the questions with which I had been dealing my whole life. I found his site on my own, and I have come to agree with many (not ALL) of his teachings "on my own dime and on my own time". While I appreciate you looking out for me, and while I really do welcome intelligent conversation and debate on subjects such as these, I do not need you to presumptuously tell me how much or how little I know about the bible. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Adam, I said that I was not directing the statements at you or implying that you are the product of the accusations of some types people I was talking about. What I was implying, though, is that if you knew more scripture and had a really good understanding of things like the Trinity, you would've been able to disprove much of what L. Ray Smith teaches. I was able to do so, very easily, on lots of different subjects. Not saying I'm better than you or know more than you. I do believe in things I can prove biblically, though, and soundly. When that was presented to L. Ray Smith, he couldn't refute it, and suddenly didn't have time to deal with me. lol


The only presumption about "free will" here was on man's part, not God's. Show me scripture and verse where the Bible actually speaks to man's phantom "free will" and we can talk. You are building your argument about free will on your own thoughts and presumptions without the basis of any scripture.

And you have also built a belief and shaped that believe by interpreting scriptures to read a certain way that fits into your belief about "free will." I have shown above how none of the verses can prove a lack of free will. The verses are simply being interpreted to say what is necessary to prove the view of no free will. As soon as you start throwing all of the possible interpretations into the mix, suddenly, we see that those verses could mean a lot of stuff, and some are taken completely out of context.


How awesome can His plan truly be when you and almost every other fundamentalist Christian have consigned billions of our fellow humans to an eternal hellhole of fire and torture which serves no remedial value or Godly purpose?

You are assuming things about me and grouping me into fundamentalist Christianity when I am nothing of the sort. I credit none of my beliefs on them, because I have spent years and years and years of study on my own in order to form my own beliefs, apart from those of the prominant Christian denominations. I actually wanted firm, biblical support for all of my views, and as I learned more about the Bible, it shaped my beliefs over time. I wanted to believe only in things that were 100% proveable, and separate those beliefs from the things that were theorized. When I listen to ANY preacher from ANY denomination, I always pick apart his beliefs to find the weaknesses. I don't like to learn from other people. I like to trust the Lord and do my own reading and learning so that I'm not persuaded by someone else's slant on a particular subject. It taints perception when reading passages if you hear someone else's belief first. Not a good open minded way to approach learning.


Personally, I find it MUCH more awesome and consider it much more exciting to believe that God will save ALL of mankind from themselves. In fact, it would be easy for God to needlessly torture or even annihilate a vile, evil, and wretched person like Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler. The REAL accomplishment comes from transforming someone of that caliber into a real godly saint.

I think that if all mankind were saved, life has no purpose whatsoever. If God is going to change us into beings similar to Himself in the end, and we will be given perfect knowledge, then there is no learning to be done. We could be good, bad, learn a lot, or none at all....and ultimately, it doesn't matter, because in the end, we all go to heaven and understand all knowledge. Where's the purpose in life? Oh, to seek selfish peace and joy in life? Why proselatize? Sure, people can have better lives, but maybe they like their life? So why bother proselatizing?

If there were no such thing as hell or hades or the lake of fire for humans, then why does the Bible even bother talking about it? Don't you think God would leave out things like hell so that we're not confused by it? No logic...


Of course, most people think that God will utterly fail in this task, being held captive by man's supposed ability to make uncaused choices that thwart and ultimately derail God's plan and intentions. If you thought God worked wonders with the evil criminal Saul on the road to Damascus, just WAIT until you see what happens when God works His magic on all of wicked humanity in the Lake of Fire.

I find it interesting how you are so certain of your beliefs and knowing what God's going to do. Tell me, if we're all going to be saved, why save us? Quality of life? That's not right, because many non-christians have very good lives apart from God. God wouldn't come down to die for us if we were all going to be saved anyway. Why bother wasting time down here to save us if you already can save us at will? Oh, well, maybe Jesus came so that people have a visible choice of who God is and who they need to accept? Oh, but that would mean that God came to show Himself to us so we could CHOOSE Him. But that's free will, and that's not correct, right?


While I agree with your points, it would seem that Brian has ignored this little piece of advice himself by attributing names such as "scathingly vial (sic)", "angry", "arrogant", "prideful", and "idiot" to Ray without giving him any benefit of the doubt. While I realize that we are all subject to passionate moments of weakness while discussing these types of subjects, I have to ask Brian, "where is the true love of which you continually speak?"
[/quote]

Well, you assume again that I have not given L. Ray Smith the benefit of the doubt. Sure, I've seen him act nice. But more importantly, I've read the hate and pride and arrogance in most all of his papers! My wife and I immediately were turned off by his arrogance and condescending tone. He constantly puts others down or shapes arguments to say that others are stupid for not believing the same way he believes. He even gives justification on his page for his actions by saying that Jesus was hateful! This is absurd. L. Ray Smith's website is about feeding his ego. He's talked to me many times through e-mail, and sometimes he was nice, and other times he was very, very condescending and rude. It's almost like he's got multiple personality disorder. He's eliminated hell (punishment) and said that everyone is saved. So now, he's not held to any standard, because God will save him or anyone else, whether they've believed or not Where's the purpose in that? L. Ray Smith's stuff works, sometimes, when he only uses his scriptures. But when you get into the Bible as a whole, his stuff just falls apart and makes no sense.

[Brain_Mach1]

Intersting but you have a few gray areas.

The United States, though I won't discuss the numerical prophecy that ends on 1776 (the year we became a nation) just happens to fit the bill. We are a nation, the only nation, founded on Judao-Christian values, and the only nation that has always protected Israel.
The USA as we know it was founded in 1789. 1776 was the Declaration of Independence which did not make us a nation.
So, the 12 tribes became thirteen because one tribe split in two. Now check this out... The protestants get pursecuted by the Catholic church, and the pilgrams tell the story that God told them to get on ships and go to the New World. Most of our early immigrants to the 13 colonies were from England, a country with anti-Catholic government that actively persecuted Catholics. The early religious pilgrims came to practice their own form of religion without interference from the Anglican Church. They brought their own oppressive laws, which led to events like Salem witch trials. Maryland was the first colony to have religous freedom and was founded by a Catholic in 1633. The Puritans were not pursecuted by the Catholic Church, it was the other way around. The break-up of Puritanism led to many of the denominations we have in the USA.

Germans (some also Lutherin), French and Spanish who immigrated to the colonies or the USA brought their Catholisism with them. Italians, Irish, Polish, and Czechs who came later did the same.

Catholisism was not legalized in Britain until the Emancipation Act of 1829. :eek:

[Fastback]

Some are going to Hell. Satan, a third of the angels, and the rich young ruler:

Luke 16:23 In hell,<SUP>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&verse=23&version=31&context=verse#fen-NIV-25636a)]</SUP> where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

By this we can say that going to Hell is part of God's plan for some. What then can be said about God if many go to Hell and only a few find there way through the narrow gate?

[Bobba Fett]

Some are going to Hell. Satan, a third of the angels, and the rich young ruler:

Luke 16:23 In hell,<SUP>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=16&verse=23&version=31&context=verse#fen-NIV-25636a)]</SUP> where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

By this we can say that going to Hell is part of God's plan for some. What then can be said about God if many go to Hell and only a few find there way through the narrow gate?

Hell is not part of God's plan for anyone. The only sin that is deemed hell-worthy is not accepting Christ as your savor. Remember that Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy, but Christ comes so that you may have life.

[Fastback]

Hell is not part of God's plan for anyone. The only sin that is deemed hell-worthy is not accepting Christ as your savor. Remember that Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy, but Christ comes so that you may have life.

I respect what you are saying, that Hell is not part of God's plan for anyone. I attribute the existence of Hell to God because who else could have made it? Also, Who is Judge... Who decides if someone/thing goes to hell? See.

[Casper]

I think he is saying that it is God's wish that hell be empty, but God knows that just won't happen.

Kind of like it is my wish that my truck will run 10s without me doing anything, but i know that won't happen without my intervention, which I am not going to undertake ;)

[Fastback]

I think he is saying that it is God's wish that hell be empty, but God knows that just won't happen.



Why create it then? This is the question I pose. Hell is part of God's plan, that is why He created it. It is therefore part of God's plan that those without faith go to hell, not His wish, but His will.

[flashstang04]

Why create it then? This is the question I pose. Hell is part of God's plan, that is why He created it. It is therefore part of God's plan that those without faith go to hell, not His wish, but His will.


Hell was originally created for Satan and the angels that followed him.....

[BrianC]

Intersting but you have a few gray areas.


The USA as we know it was founded in 1789. 1776 was the Declaration of Independence which did not make us a nation.

No, the birth of our nation is at the signing of the Declaration. We "declared" ourselves an independent nation.

Excuse my very broad, generalized statement about pilgrams. We are a country founded by Christians, all Free Masons, pretty much, that weeved the Creator, God, into our Constitution and our rights. We are the only Nation founded like this, besides the Jews, and we are the only nation that actively always protects the Jews. Regardless of the stupid things man used religion to do, like the Salem Witch Trials, nothing changes in regard to when we became a nation.

[Casper]

Why create it then? This is the question I pose. Hell is part of God's plan, that is why He created it. It is therefore part of God's plan that those without faith go to hell, not His wish, but His will.

Well, I could give you a secular answer, but for a theological answer see all of Phillystangs posts about predestination.

[Casper]

No, the birth of our nation is at the signing of the Declaration. We "declared" ourselves an independent nation.

Excuse my very broad, generalized statement about pilgrams. We are a country founded by Christians, all Free Masons, pretty much, that weeved the Creator, God, into our Constitution and our rights. We are the only Nation founded like this, besides the Jews, and we are the only nation that actively always protects the Jews. Regardless of the stupid things man used religion to do, like the Salem Witch Trials, nothing changes in regard to when we became a nation.

I think the Iroquois Confederacy had more to do with the structure of the constitution than any religious text, and then there is the neo-Marcionite form of Christianity (near theism) expressed by the likes of Jefferson and Paine. And if you want to get technical about "declarations", the first continental congress trumps the second, so it still isn't 1776 except by simple convention.

Nice try though ;)

[Brain_Mach1]

I also doubt they were all Free Masons. There was a History Chanel show about the Seal of the USA and the Masons. They listed losts of people who were not Masons.

This would be the signing of the constitution though, not the D of I. I still doubt they were all Masons.

Just as this site is Internet Mystery Meat of fact and fiction, I found this:

Were all the signers of the Declaration of Independence Masons?

No. Masons constituted ten of the signers of the Articles, nine
signers of the Declaration, and thirteen signers of the Constitution.

Additionally, Edmund Randolph, Grand Master of Virginia, was an active
participant at the Constitutional Convention, though he didn't sign
the document. It should also be noted that four Presidents of the
Continental Congresses were Freemasons: Peyton Randolph of Virginia,
John Hancock of Massachusetts, Henry Laurens of South Carolina, and
Arthur St. Clair of Pennsylvania. (Northern Light)

Edit:
I found a site by a Free Mason which confirms 9 were Mason, but others might have been. This is not the same as all or even most of the creators of this nation being Free Masons.

http://www.srmason-sj.org/council/journal/jul01/boyerjul.html

[Brain_Mach1]

As for why would God create hell, try checking out Thomas Aquinas.

His argument is that evil is the absence of good just as darkness is the absence of light. Evil and darkness are not measurable entities of their own. Temperature is the same. You don’t have hot and cold, you have more and less heat.

So what is Hell? Hell is the absolute separation from God. It is not a separate entity. Picture absolute darkness or absolute zero. These are not separate states from light and hot, they are the absolute absence of light and heat. Hell is the absolute absence of good and complete separation from God.

Life and death are the same. Death is the absence of life, it is not a creation in itself.

Satan chose seperation and tries to seperate us from God. Seperation from Jesus, the life, is death, is hell.

[BrianC]

Interesting to see the discussion. From an athiest mindset I offer the following, (possibly inadequate) analogy:

If I forbid my son from maturbating, and then catch him whacking off, is it his fault for defying me, or my fault for being unreasonable?

If the former, then one must ask why a perfect being would create such a paradoxical instinct. If the latter, then God is not without fault, possibly by design.

We are born into the sin nature and have flaws, but God the Father has no flaws and it is impossible for Him to sin. It would mean that we cannot make an analogy using our own father's in comparison to God the Father. He says that, "Our thoughts are not His thoughts, and our ways are not His ways." (paraphrased) It's probably impossible for us to understand His ways and how He thinks about things and approaches them, because of His perfection, which is uncorrupted by sinful thought.

[BrianC]

I think the Iroquois Confederacy had more to do with the structure of the constitution than any religious text, and then there is the neo-Marcionite form of Christianity (near theism) expressed by the likes of Jefferson and Paine. And if you want to get technical about "declarations", the first continental congress trumps the second, so it still isn't 1776 except by simple convention.

Nice try though ;)

Wow, are you really telling me that you don't believe 1776 was the date the United States declared independance and declared themselves a nation? Why do you think we celebrate July 4th?

Recently, I heard a news report of many colleges working to teach about the history of our nation and remove Christianity out of it so that people didn't know about the original founding of the country.

If you really enjoy this type of history, you really need to read a book called "The 5000 Year Leap." It is the most historically accurate account of the events from the time of our founding, and it has TONS of letters back and forth from the founders and tons of statements they made in writing. It shows all of the things they considered and how they took the best of every government from the past 5000 years and constructed a government out of those things. All of the letters and papers and documents it cites can actually be found and referenced if you want to see them for yourselves. These men were extremely dedicated to God, and make reference to Free Masonry. They make reference to God constantly in regard to how they built the structure of rights. Not all were Free Masons, like you said. I apologize for my broad, generalized comment. I do that sometimes...

I want to make sure you understand I'm not advocating Masonry AT ALL! It may, at one time, have been full of good people, but I think it got quietly hijacked over the years and an element of evil has moved in. Not saying that all or even a lot of the members or lodges are evil. Just saying that I know a lot of people who've told about the horrible, unspeakable things that SOME masons have done to them. This definitely does not speak for every mason by any means. I have a friend that's a really good Christian guy that is a mason.

Originally, with the Articles of Confederation, the theory was, "Let's put as little government as possible, and give as much freedom as possible, and see how this works." It wasn't quite enough government, because it was too little. So, added just a little more government (say, 5% more) and it was perfect. Freedom and government existed codependent of one another.

Many of our founding fathers made the statement that the nation's success depended fully upon a religious and moral people. They said that if religion and morality ever went by the wayside, the country would collapse. Funny how we see that happening today. Funny how we see secular progressives and socialists attack Christianity (the religion of the nation), but welcoming in and being accomidating to ever other religion. Funny how we see morality going down the drain with our kids and on TV and movies. We see everything this country was dependent on for its survival going right out the window. It's almost like someone read the founding father's statements and said, "Well, let's see if they were right about the religion and morality."

Would anyone in their right mind go to Iran and say, "There's no place for this Muslim religious holiday, because it offends the people of other religions in this country." Of course not! You'd get killed. So why come to America and attack our religious belief, especially when religious freedom is protected in the Constitution? What kind of bizaar parallel dimension are we living in where this kind of stuff happens?

If you get a chance, look up the 1963 Communist Agenda. Pretty sure it's 1963. These marching orders were set out 44 years ago, and there are about 45 items on the list. Most of them have come to pass in this country. How bizaar is that? Who would've thought that in a country that's quite the opposite of communistic, we would have implimented most of the things that the Communists wanted in order to turn us into a communist country? That's crazy... We really need to take our country back if we enjoy the way we live.

[BrianC]

As for why would God create hell, try checking out Thomas Aquinas.

His argument is that evil is the absence of good just as darkness is the absence of light. Evil and darkness are not measurable entities of their own. Temperature is the same. You don’t have hot and cold, you have more and less heat.

So what is Hell? Hell is the absolute separation from God. It is not a separate entity. Picture absolute darkness or absolute zero. These are not separate states from light and hot, they are the absolute absence of light and heat. Hell is the absolute absence of good and complete separation from God.

Life and death are the same. Death is the absence of life, it is not a creation in itself.

Satan chose seperation and tries to seperate us from God. Seperation from Jesus, the life, is death, is hell.

You sort of beat me to it. I wasn't going to reference Thomas Aquinas, because I came up with this on my own, because it makes sense.

Notice that on the first day, God created light, not darkness. Darkness, at its definition, is the opposite of light. Therefore, if you create light, darkness MUST come into existence. Notice that in John 1, when it's talking about the creation, it says, "The light shined into the darkness, and the darkness did not understand it."

So, where there is one absolute, there must be an equal and opposite absolute. No offense to Brain Mach1, but I don't think he gave hell enough credit. lol The opposite of God is everything evil and everything bad, since God is good and love and everything good, we're told, comes from Jesus.

Also, there was a scripture quoted in a previous post about the dead rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was in hell and asks for Abraham to ask Lazarus to dip his finger in the water and put a drop on his tongue. I would guess this guy feels as if he's burning.

Burning is the worst type of pain anyone on earth can have. It inflames all of your nerves, and nothing makes it stop hurting even after the flames are gone. It completely kills your nervous system. Imagine everything good (that good feeling of the nervous system working) being gone, and you only experiencing everything bad (the horrible feeling of the nervous system) for eternity. THAT is horrible. That feels like burning. That's why hell and hades are said to be cast into the Lake of Fire in the end; because it feels like you're burning when you are separate from God.

God says that it is His will that EVERYONE come to an understanding of the Christ and be saved, but He also says, "Many are called, but few are chosen." You are chosen, in my opinion, if God knew you'd choose Him (that way free will is intact). And since God gives us a choice of eternally being with Him or eternally being separate from Him, then we are choosing this ourselves. We could spend 80 years on this earth resisting God or having a grudge against Him. God wants you to accept Him, but He can't make you. It's your choice. God doesn't want to separate anyone from Himself, but it is our choice.

There's the argument of, "People don't choose hell. It's forced upon them, and they don't know what it's like to know that they don't want to go there." The Bible warns about it. And I'm sure God will judge justly for those that didn't know about it. But the point is that I bet Lucifer didn't know what separation from God and goodness was like when he chose it. See, he probably had the knowledge of what would happen if he betrayed God, but he had never experienced it for himself, though. Once he fell, and was separated from God, I bet he was REALLY ticked off to find out how horrible it was to be separated from everything good. So, now, he's only interested in hurting God through damning humans, and will stop at nothing, because of the horrible separation from God that he blames on God instead of himself. That's my guess...

[BrianC]

Allow me to give another L. Ray Smith belief that has no foundation to it. L. Ray Smith says that Hell doesn't exist. Oh really? Well, I guess God's a trickster, then, right? Let's see what Jesus (God Himself) says about Hell:

Mark 9:43-49
43"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
44[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
45"If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
46[where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
47"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
49"For everyone will be salted with fire.

So, tell me...was Jesus just trying to scare us here? Was He lying? He says that it's better to enter life in the kingdom of God than to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. If you quench a fire, you rapidly cool it. In other words, the fire will never cool or be put out. It will burn forever. Why? Because it's possible that its a figurative fire, and you feel the sensation of burning (separation from God) as long as you are in this place.

However, there may be a literal Lake of Fire in the spirit realm where the people's spirit man will burn forever. I think the key is that when the body dies, only the mind and spirit are left; and if you don't have Jesus ready to give you a new physical body, your physical body is gone forever, and all you're left with is your spirit and mind. Believers are given an incorruptible spirit (a requirement for living with God, because He cannot live in the presence of sin), and in the end, He will give us a new, incorruptible body as well, and our minds will also be incorruptible. Pretty sweet deal. Can't say I'd want to refuse that one, especially considering the alternative.

[Fastback]

Yes, I agree there is a place called Hell, where the greatest suffering comes from the eternal separation from the Most High. The angels will be cast into the "Lake of Fire" and so forth.
My question was not about that. Knowing that God created us, and that His wish is that we spend eternity with Him, why then did He create Hell for the angels and us? Because, men and angels are the only being we know of that defy the will of God. That is MY definition of Free Will. Free will is to have the choice whether or not to obey the will of the Father. HOWEVER, since God is the Creator of all, making us with inherent traits, He has a say in who we are, and what goes with what. It is in our "blueprint" whether or not we are going to be more or less selfish and so forth. I believe God created our personalities, though, some of you ( or at least one of you) do not.
Furthermore :) it seems more of a predisposition even separate from personality, if you will. Lucifer for example (Satan) was the most beautiful creature ever, from my understanding. He became exceedingly stuck on himself and selfish beyond everything else. He covets the position of the Most High. From my experience, people that are exceedingly gifted fall away the worst. IE Whitney Houston...so talented and beautiful (for all practical purposes here) and sucking her life away on a crack pipe....yet raised by a gospel singing mother.

So why create us with a predisposition to go to Hell....or could you call it a "predestination" to go to Hell?

[BrianC]

Yes, I agree there is a place called Hell, where the greatest suffering comes from the eternal separation from the Most High. The angels will be cast into the "Lake of Fire" and so forth.
My question was not about that. Knowing that God created us, and that His wish is that we spend eternity with Him, why then did He create Hell for the angels and us? Because, men and angels are the only being we know of that defy the will of God. That is MY definition of Free Will. Free will is to have the choice whether or not to obey the will of the Father. HOWEVER, since God is the Creator of all, making us with inherent traits, He has a say in who we are, and what goes with what. It is in our "blueprint" whether or not we are going to be more or less selfish and so forth. I believe God created our personalities, though, some of you ( or at least one of you) do not.
Furthermore :) it seems more of a predisposition even separate from personality, if you will. Lucifer for example (Satan) was the most beautiful creature ever, from my understanding. He became exceedingly stuck on himself and selfish beyond everything else. He covets the position of the Most High. From my experience, people that are exceedingly gifted fall away the worst. IE Whitney Houston...so talented and beautiful (for all practical purposes here) and sucking her life away on a crack pipe....yet raised by a gospel singing mother.

So why create us with a predisposition to go to Hell....or could you call it a "predestination" to go to Hell?

I apologize if I didn't explain my view better. The reason I was explaining how Hell (separation from God) was a result of Heaven (being with God) is to show how the power of free will plays a vital role in all of this. Let me give another example.

If you create/birth a child, and raise them up, and they leave home at 18, you cannot control them. They have free will, and they will do as they please. If you tell them, "For the rest of your life, to make a ton of money and live in a big house, you can just learn the family business and work for me, or you can go your own way and try to make money as an artist like you want to." You can't make their choice for them. Of course a starving artist is no way to live, and while you desired that they carry on the family business, you can't control their decisions.

God is much the same way with us. We desire to have children and try to raise them well and children give us an object to poor out our love on. Why? Because we want to be like God. God made us to shower His love on us. We were made to receive love, and we were made to receive so much of it from Him that we'd have to give it away to others. Since we were made to be loved and to give love, we have this desire to have children as objects of our love and affection, just like God had the desire to create and love us.

I think I explained this earlier, but true love is a choice. It's a total fallicy to believe that you "fall" into love and cannot control who you fall in love with. In order to "fall" into love, you must allow yourself to love someone first. Allowing is a choice. I chose to love my wife when I first met her. How do I know this? Because for three months, I chose not to love her unconditionally. But after three months I realized something and chose to love her unconditionally at that point. She can do no wrong, now, that would make me leave her. It's a choice. We must also choose to receive love. We can literally refuse to receive love from people or a woman (I'm speaking as a man, of course).

In order for us to receive TRUE love from God, we needed to choose to receive it. And in order for us to TRULY love Him back and love others, we needed to CHOOSE to do so. So, God had to have an end point. Hell or Heaven. What do you chose? Do you choose eternal connection to God and being in His presence and loving Him, or do you choose eternal separation from God and not loving Him? The fact that God made Heaven (a place of being in His presence eternally) meant that the opposite place must also be available to those that choose not to be eternally in his presence. Make sense? Choice requires an opposite. Darkness requires light for it's defintion. Good requires evil for its definition. Does that explain it better?

[Fastback]

I apologize if I didn't explain my view better. The reason I was explaining how Hell (separation from God) was a result of Heaven (being with God) is to show how the power of free will plays a vital role in all of this. Let me give another example.

If you create/birth a child, and raise them up, and they leave home at 18, you cannot control them. They have free will, and they will do as they please. If you tell them, "For the rest of your life, to make a ton of money and live in a big house, you can just learn the family business and work for me, or you can go your own way and try to make money as an artist like you want to." You can't make their choice for them. Of course a starving artist is no way to live, and while you desired that they carry on the family business, you can't control their decisions.

God is much the same way with us. We desire to have children and try to raise them well and children give us an object to poor out our love on. Why? Because we want to be like God. God made us to shower His love on us. We were made to receive love, and we were made to receive so much of it from Him that we'd have to give it away to others. Since we were made to be loved and to give love, we have this desire to have children as objects of our love and affection, just like God had the desire to create and love us.

I think I explained this earlier, but true love is a choice. It's a total fallicy to believe that you "fall" into love and cannot control who you fall in love with. In order to "fall" into love, you must allow yourself to love someone first. Allowing is a choice. I chose to love my wife when I first met her. How do I know this? Because for three months, I chose not to love her unconditionally. But after three months I realized something and chose to love her unconditionally at that point. She can do no wrong, now, that would make me leave her. It's a choice. We must also choose to receive love. We can literally refuse to receive love from people or a woman (I'm speaking as a man, of course).

In order for us to receive TRUE love from God, we needed to choose to receive it. And in order for us to TRULY love Him back and love others, we needed to CHOOSE to do so. So, God had to have an end point. Hell or Heaven. What do you chose? Do you choose eternal connection to God and being in His presence and loving Him, or do you choose eternal separation from God and not loving Him? The fact that God made Heaven (a place of being in His presence eternally) meant that the opposite place must also be available to those that choose not to be eternally in his presence. Make sense? Choice requires an opposite. Darkness requires light for it's defintion. Good requires evil for its definition. Does that explain it better?

Personally, I agree with everything you said, and it is well put. However, and it may not be possible for you ( because it is not for me ) to explain. Here in lies the problem:

If God truly wanted to give us "free will" he would have to roll the dice with us. To create us with inherent traits spoils it "logically." Because He knew us, because He made us, it seems like He is creating us to be a certain way, some are like Saddam Hussien and some like Mother Theresa among the everyday peeps. I mean, I know upbringing and such can have a drastic effect on a person's character, but there is what is described as predisposition. I am having trouble explaining that away.

Don't forget that I agree with everything you said already about love and all, I just am trying to make that last step onto the same page with you. The only thing I lack is this....Since God made us, how can we be SURE that we are not predisposed to go to Heaven or Hell? :confused:

[Phillystang]

Read the first chapter of Ephesians, it is quite hard to deny predestination...

[BrianC]

Personally, I agree with everything you said, and it is well put. However, and it may not be possible for you ( because it is not for me ) to explain. Here in lies the problem:

If God truly wanted to give us "free will" he would have to roll the dice with us. To create us with inherent traits spoils it "logically." Because He knew us, because He made us, it seems like He is creating us to be a certain way, some are like Saddam Hussien and some like Mother Theresa among the everyday peeps. I mean, I know upbringing and such can have a drastic effect on a person's character, but there is what is described as predisposition. I am having trouble explaining that away.

Don't forget that I agree with everything you said already about love and all, I just am trying to make that last step onto the same page with you. The only thing I lack is this....Since God made us, how can we be SURE that we are not predisposed to go to Heaven or Hell? :confused:

Oh, I see what you mean. Here's how I explain this:

Sin is passed down through the father. So, we inherit our parent's sins through our father, therefore, we have the same sins from birth that we have to overcome, and we have other sins we acquire along the way. Our personalities, in my opinion, are shaped by how we are raised by our parents and the sins that get passed down to us at birth. Kids that are below the age of five are INCREDIBLE spunges, and they soak up every bit of what their parents do, and how they act, etc.

So, if that is all true, then God doesn't create our personality. We actually choose our personality through the way we choose to act or react to sin and people and life and society as a result of what we believe.

Let me give an example. I used to be very shy. To overcome that, I forced myself to walk up to people and introduce myself. Now, I have no problem walking up to people and I'm not shy anymore. I ALLOWED myself to be shy, therefore it was a choice. I chose to not be shy, at one point, and overcame it. I chose my personality.

As for sin and how it effects your personality, I used to be super prideful and arrogant. Online, people hated me because of this, and I didn't know why until I figured out I was prideful. Once I did that, I fought pride over the years and I'm much more humble now. People don't hate me online anymore. lol

You allow yourself to act the way you do, and therefore, it's a choice. It's just that it seems natural due to the fact that you are so used to the way you act. It's ingrained in you. You're trained to do it. But when you choose to change, you retrain yourself. It's like driving... You learn to drive a certain way and it's natural to you after a few years. But if you want, you can change the way you drive or race. But it's always easier to do what you're used to. Same goes for your personality.

That's just my 2 cents. I won't claim I'm correct on this, but this is what makes sense to me.

[BrianC]

Read the first chapter of Ephesians, it is quite hard to deny predestination...

It's all about how you view the decisions involved in the predestination.

I'll explain again:

If God knows the future from the beginning of time, and He knows us better than we know ourselves, then He knows every decision we're going to make in life. That being the case, He will know exactly who will choose Him and who will not choose Him. He simply makes an intelligent choice to choose (predestine) the people that He already knows will choose Him. It's very logical and smart, considering that we know He knows everything in advance.

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

What did He "foreknow" about these people that made Him "predestine" them? Simple.... He knew they would choose Him, so He chose (predestined) them in advance. This is how free will and predestination co-exist fully intact.

Besides, if you (God) know full well that someone doesn't want to choose you, and they will not cooperate or submit to you and allow you to work through them, would it be a smart choice to choose (predestine) them?? I think God's smarter than that.

[Phillystang]

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

What did He "foreknow" about these people that made Him "predestine" them? Simple.... He knew they would choose Him, so He chose (predestined) them in advance. This is how free will and predestination co-exist fully intact.

This is the only verse that can be used to suggest God responding to us while there are many other that would say the opposite, that God chose us before the foundation of the world regardless of what he knew we would do. So perhaps that particular interpretation of the verse is incorrect since we know that Scripture does not contradict itself.

Let's look at it again...

Romans 8:2
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

What you are trying to make it say is this- "For those whom he foreknew would choose him, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,"

If we look at just what is actually there and not add to it, we see "those whom he foreknew."

What does foreknew mean? To have in mind from the past or to know of before hand. Choice of man is absent in just simply the word "foreknew". So it is those who God purposed beforehand irregardless of anything He saw in us.



Besides, if you (God) know full well that someone doesn't want to choose you, and they will not cooperate or submit to you and allow you to work through them, would it be a smart choice to choose (predestine) them?? I think God's smarter than that.This is logically true but is it true of the nature God works in?

Can you see in any other passage that God's election is based on a choice He sees humans make long ago in history past? No, quite the opposite...

John 15:16
16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

Ephesians 1
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Here we see his reasons in election-" in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace". Nowhere else does it even hint that the sovereign God of the universe is influenced by what he sees in us.

Look at Deuteronomy 7:5-9 and see why God chose Israel. Once again we see that it was God's purpose and nothing found in them. What does that have to do with God's election in the New Testament?, you might ask. Well, what of the other Old Testament era pagan peoples that were not Jewish and had no contact with the Jewish people? They had no chance of salvation and there was nothing they could do about it. Once again, tough to swallow, but we shouldn't have a false idea of God just because we don't think His actions are fair.

[BrianC]

This is the only verse that can be used to suggest God responding to us while there are many other that would say the opposite, that God chose us before the foundation of the world regardless of what he knew we would do. So perhaps that particular interpretation of the verse is incorrect since we know that Scripture does not contradict itself.

Let's look at it again...

Romans 8:2
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

What you are trying to make it say is this- "For those whom he foreknew would choose him, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,"

If we look at just what is actually there and not add to it, we see "those whom he foreknew."

What does foreknew mean? To have in mind from the past or to know of before hand. Choice of man is absent in just simply the word "foreknew". So it is those who God purposed beforehand irregardless of anything He saw in us.


First, you must admit the possibility of what I'm saying, because scripture does not say otherwise. It's all about how you interpret what you're reading. You interpret the verses to say that God chose without having any ryhme or reason to his choice except that it was His good pleasure. But the fact is that logically, if you know EVERYTHING about everyone, even every choice they'll make in life, then logically, you will choose the people who you know will choose you and will submit to your will.

However, you cannot choose someone who will not accept you. You cannot MAKE someone choose you if they really don't want to choose you. We really do have free will.


This is logically true but is it true of the nature God works in?

It's logical because God is smart, and logical. When you follow logic back to HOW God would choose who to select from the verses we see in the Bible that you've quoted below, then you can see why God would choose people that He knew would accept Him. I'll explain after these verses you've quoted below:


Can you see in any other passage that God's election is based on a choice He sees humans make long ago in history past? No, quite the opposite...

John 15:16
16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

We're told that we do not have the capacity to choose God in our sin nature. We're told that everything good comes from Jesus. Jesus tells us He gives every man an equal measure of faith. That faith is the part of every man that wants to search for God or believe in God or accept Him. So, that part of us is FROM God, meaning God is responsible for the part of us that makes us want to seek Him out.

So, yes, God is responsible for our ability to choose. But, it's still our choice.

If God could MAKE us believe in Him, then let's look at Jonah. God told Jonah to go to the Ninevites and warn them of His judgements on them if they didn't change. Jonah refused. Why didn't God just make Jonah do it? Because Jonah had free will. So, God had to go to extremes and put Jonah into a whale for three days. After three days of that, Jonah CHOSE to go to Ninevah. God has to work around our free will. He doesn't infringe upon it because He gave it to us. Besides, He's all knowing and all powerful, so He knows just how to push our buttons to get the results He wants...but He does this in order to influence our choices. Free will...


Ephesians 1
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Here we see his reasons in election-" in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace". Nowhere else does it even hint that the sovereign God of the universe is influenced by what he sees in us.


Once again, consider that you're God, and you know everything about the future and everyone and every choice everyone will make in their life, and you know if someone will choose you and submit to your will to further your purpose. Now, logically, who are you going to choose? What's logical? (Is God illogical? Does He randomly choose people for no apparent reason, or is there logic involved?


Look at Deuteronomy 7:5-9 and see why God chose Israel. Once again we see that it was God's purpose and nothing found in them. What does that have to do with God's election in the New Testament?


Once again, all you have to do is go back to: "I'm God. I know everything in advance. Humans are in the sin nature, and no matter who I pick, they're going to reject me, just like the Hebrews will. I'll pick the Hebrews anyway, and when they reject me, I'll use it to save the rest of the world."

It's also reasonable to say that we don't know if another race would've been more or less rejecting of God in regard to false idol worship and things of that nature. So, we don't know God's logic, exactly, except that He had a plan in mind when He picked them. Why? Because He already knew what was going to happen ahead of time due to His choice to pick them. This means that He made an educated decision in picking Israel. There's ryhme and reason to his choices. It's not just random. He made the smartest choices to get His will accomplished on earth exactly as He wanted.


, you might ask. Well, what of the other Old Testament era pagan peoples that were not Jewish and had no contact with the Jewish people? They had no chance of salvation and there was nothing they could do about it. Once again, tough to swallow, but we shouldn't have a false idea of God just because we don't think His actions are fair.

You think those people in the Old Testament couldn't have been saved somehow, or that God won't judge some of them and allow them into heaven? Here's what Romans says about that:

Romans 5:12-13
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, we see here that before there was a Law, no sin was imputed upon people. And Paul goes further in this next verse in explaining this:

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

So, when Paul didn't know the Law, he didn't know what sin was, and was "ALIVE." But he says that when he knew the law, he knew what sin was and the knowledge of knowing what sin caused him to die.

In other words, even though people had sin in them, the fact that they were ignorant of the law caused them to not be judged by the law and condemned. The people prior to the law or that didn't know about the law after it came about did not have their sins "imputed" (counted) against them.

However, there is a verse about God judging a man by his conscience. And there is also a verse where Paul says that creation is a testament that there is a God, so that no man is without excuse.

So, try to figure that one out. :D
Scripture is not always clear cut on every subject...

My point is that God is just, and He has a way to judge everyone justly, even apart from the law. We don't know how the non-Jews of the Old Testament will be judged. We just know that Jesus purchased sin and everyone that has sin in them. And now, He's the one that makes the final decision, because He owns everyone through owning their sins that have them in bondage. Go ask Him how He's gonna' judge, cause I don't even claim to know that. I'm not God.

What it comes down to is this: You choose to interpret scripture a certain way and believe it a certain way. I choose to interpret scripture a certain way and believe a different way than you. In my opinion, I have logic in my view. In your opinion, your view makes more sense. I think your view is illogical, but that's my opinion, and nothing more. Just as your view that my belief is illogical is your opinion, and nothing more. Therefore, I never expected to win this debate with you... just to show that there are other ways to look at this two sided coin. We have the free will to believe as we choose. Whoops, there's that free will thing again. :P

[Phillystang]

First, you must admit the possibility of what I'm saying, because scripture does not say otherwise. It's all about how you interpret what you're reading. You interpret the verses to say that God chose without having any ryhme or reason to his choice except that it was His good pleasure. But the fact is that logically, if you know EVERYTHING about everyone, even every choice they'll make in life, then logically, you will choose the people who you know will choose you and will submit to your will.

However, you cannot choose someone who will not accept you. You cannot MAKE someone choose you if they really don't want to choose you. We really do have free will.


It's logical because God is smart, and logical. When you follow logic back to HOW God would choose who to select from the verses we see in the Bible that you've quoted below, then you can see why God would choose people that He knew would accept Him. I'll explain after these verses you've quoted below:


We're told that we do not have the capacity to choose God in our sin nature. We're told that everything good comes from Jesus. Jesus tells us He gives every man an equal measure of faith. That faith is the part of every man that wants to search for God or believe in God or accept Him. So, that part of us is FROM God, meaning God is responsible for the part of us that makes us want to seek Him out.

So, yes, God is responsible for our ability to choose. But, it's still our choice.

If God could MAKE us believe in Him, then let's look at Jonah. God told Jonah to go to the Ninevites and warn them of His judgements on them if they didn't change. Jonah refused. Why didn't God just make Jonah do it? Because Jonah had free will. So, God had to go to extremes and put Jonah into a whale for three days. After three days of that, Jonah CHOSE to go to Ninevah. God has to work around our free will. He doesn't infringe upon it because He gave it to us. Besides, He's all knowing and all powerful, so He knows just how to push our buttons to get the results He wants...but He does this in order to influence our choices. Free will...



Once again, consider that you're God, and you know everything about the future and everyone and every choice everyone will make in their life, and you know if someone will choose you and submit to your will to further your purpose. Now, logically, who are you going to choose? What's logical? (Is God illogical? Does He randomly choose people for no apparent reason, or is there logic involved?



Once again, all you have to do is go back to: "I'm God. I know everything in advance. Humans are in the sin nature, and no matter who I pick, they're going to reject me, just like the Hebrews will. I'll pick the Hebrews anyway, and when they reject me, I'll use it to save the rest of the world."

It's also reasonable to say that we don't know if another race would've been more or less rejecting of God in regard to false idol worship and things of that nature. So, we don't know God's logic, exactly, except that He had a plan in mind when He picked them. Why? Because He already knew what was going to happen ahead of time due to His choice to pick them. This means that He made an educated decision in picking Israel. There's ryhme and reason to his choices. It's not just random. He made the smartest choices to get His will accomplished on earth exactly as He wanted.



You think those people in the Old Testament couldn't have been saved somehow, or that God won't judge some of them and allow them into heaven? Here's what Romans says about that:

Romans 5:12-13
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So, we see here that before there was a Law, no sin was imputed upon people. And Paul goes further in this next verse in explaining this:

Romans 7:9
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

So, when Paul didn't know the Law, he didn't know what sin was, and was "ALIVE." But he says that when he knew the law, he knew what sin was and the knowledge of knowing what sin caused him to die.

In other words, even though people had sin in them, the fact that they were ignorant of the law caused them to not be judged by the law and condemned. The people prior to the law or that didn't know about the law after it came about did not have their sins "imputed" (counted) against them.

However, there is a verse about God judging a man by his conscience. And there is also a verse where Paul says that creation is a testament that there is a God, so that no man is without excuse.

So, try to figure that one out. :D
Scripture is not always clear cut on every subject...

My point is that God is just, and He has a way to judge everyone justly, even apart from the law. We don't know how the non-Jews of the Old Testament will be judged. We just know that Jesus purchased sin and everyone that has sin in them. And now, He's the one that makes the final decision, because He owns everyone through owning their sins that have them in bondage. Go ask Him how He's gonna' judge, cause I don't even claim to know that. I'm not God.

What it comes down to is this: You choose to interpret scripture a certain way and believe it a certain way. I choose to interpret scripture a certain way and believe a different way than you. In my opinion, I have logic in my view. In your opinion, your view makes more sense. I think your view is illogical, but that's my opinion, and nothing more. Just as your view that my belief is illogical is your opinion, and nothing more. Therefore, I never expected to win this debate with you... just to show that there are other ways to look at this two sided coin. We have the free will to believe as we choose. Whoops, there's that free will thing again. :P
I had a longer post but I accidentally deleted it...

Consider this...
John 8:47
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Notice that the fruit of a tree does not make it what it is, but instead reveals what it is. Many think that it is our response to "the words of God" that make us to be "of God." Jesus says the opposite. It is because we are "of God" that we respond properly to "the words of God."

The same truth is seen in John 10:26-27: "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

Once more our Lord makes it clear that men do not become sheep or elect by believing, as many suppose, but they believe because they are sheep! Regeneration or the new birth is the giving of a new nature.

John 3:6-8

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

also consider Jeremiah 13:23 (Salvation is not merely a human decision but a supernatural work of God wrought in the heart of a man)

Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.

and Ezekiel 36 (It doesn't look like God is sitting on the sidelines hoping Israel will of their 'free will' come back to Him)

24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Jesus tells us He gives every man an equal measure of faith. I also want to put you to the test on this statement and see what Scripture says this.

[BrianC]

I also want to put you to the test on this statement and see what Scripture says this.

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

[BrianC]

and Ezekiel 36 (It doesn't look like God is sitting on the sidelines hoping Israel will of their 'free will' come back to Him)

24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Israel never stopped believing in the one true God. Sure, lots of them worshipped false Gods. But what this passage is talking about is that Israel got dispersed into the nations over a period of time which was finalized in 688AD when the Dome of the Rock commensed construction and all of the Jews got slaughtered or driven out of Jerusalem and Israel. Then, in 1948, the Jews came back into their homeland. At this time, God said He would bless them by giving them a new heart and a new spirit. Do you not think that the Israelis, out of free will, wanted to come back to their own homeland again?? Of course they did. Do you think they don't want a relationship with God? Of course they do. God prophesied the future as He had already seen it happened. Yes, He saw the future not only as it had already happened, but as it had happened with His help.

Sorry, that's not an argument that can really be used in this case.

Most all of your arguments were not useable, because they are talking about a different part of this dicussion, or they're simply your interpretation.

For instance, you quoted Jesus saying that His sheep hear his voice and know Him. Why is that? Because He chose them ahead of time. How? Because He knew who would choose Him and they had ears to hear because of their faith with which they were seeking God. The people that do not have ears to hear simply are not actually looking for God, but rather, they're looking for a religion that enables their desires instead of condemning them. They want justification, not change.

I'm surprized you didn't agree that we both simply have different interpretations of this. Neither of us could ever prove our point 100% in the Bible. It's strictly theory. I was trying to end it by saying that we'll never prove our cases to one another, and that's ok, because we have different views. No big deal.

[Phillystang]

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Who is this letter addressed to? Verse 1 of Ch 12 says "brothers"
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.

Does it say that the lost man has an equal amount of faith?

"A measure of faith"

In context, Paul is saying the very opposite of what you are trying to make it say, that each measure was not the same, that each member had different functions and rolls and gifts based upon the measure of faith that was given them by God.

4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us.

[Phillystang]

Israel never stopped believing in the one true God. Sure, lots of them worshipped false Gods. But what this passage is talking about is that Israel got dispersed into the nations over a period of time which was finalized in 688AD when the Dome of the Rock commensed construction and all of the Jews got slaughtered or driven out of Jerusalem and Israel. Then, in 1948, the Jews came back into their homeland. At this time, God said He would bless them by giving them a new heart and a new spirit. Do you not think that the Israelis, out of free will, wanted to come back to their own homeland again?? Of course they did. Do you think they don't want a relationship with God? Of course they do. God prophesied the future as He had already seen it happened. Yes, He saw the future not only as it had already happened, but as it had happened with His help.

Sorry, that's not an argument that can really be used in this case.

Most all of your arguments were not useable, because they are talking about a different part of this dicussion, or they're simply your interpretation.

For instance, you quoted Jesus saying that His sheep hear his voice and know Him. Why is that? Because He chose them ahead of time. How? Because He knew who would choose Him and they had ears to hear because of their faith with which they were seeking God. The people that do not have ears to hear simply are not actually looking for God, but rather, they're looking for a religion that enables their desires instead of condemning them. They want justification, not change.

I'm surprized you didn't agree that we both simply have different interpretations of this. Neither of us could ever prove our point 100% in the Bible. It's strictly theory. I was trying to end it by saying that we'll never prove our cases to one another, and that's ok, because we have different views. No big deal.

You never addressed the verse in Romans where your interpretation would have to read: "For those whom he foreknew would choose him" But that is not what it says.


If you still cannot understand this part below



John 8:47
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Notice that the fruit of a tree does not make it what it is, but instead reveals what it is. Many think that it is our response to "the words of God" that make us to be "of God." Jesus says the opposite. It is because we are "of God" that we respond properly to "the words of God."

The same truth is seen in John 10:26-27: "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

Once more our Lord makes it clear that men do not become sheep or elect by believing, as many suppose, but they believe because they are sheep! Regeneration or the new birth is the giving of a new nature.


Then not much can be done unless God opens your eyes to see it. I will leave you yet another verse which expresses the same thought.

John 6
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
You would probably try and put a twist on it to say "The Father draws those He knew would come to Him" and that is backwards from the way Scripture reveals it. The reason they come is because the Father drew them. He is the first cause here.

You must ask yourself, "does God draw all equally?" or "are all raised up at the last day" (saved). I assume you would say no.

Your view puts man in control when throughout Scripture God is clearly in control of those he saves. Please re-read my posts and reason with the Scriptures.

In verse 15 and 18 of Ch 9 Paul states a similar thought

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

[BrianC]

Who is this letter addressed to? Verse 1 of Ch 12 says "brothers"
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.

Does it say that the lost man has an equal amount of faith?

"A measure of faith"

In context, Paul is saying the very opposite of what you are trying to make it say, that each measure was not the same, that each member had different functions and rolls and gifts based upon the measure of faith that was given them by God.

4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us.

No, the gifts are given by grace, and have nothing to do with the "amount of faith" you have. None of what you just quoted says anything about gifts being given due to an amount of faith. From the time I was born again, I've always had a gift of discernment, yet that has nothing to do with my faith. My level of faith varies depending on how much time I spend with God at any given time in my life. The more a study and talk to Him and let the Holy Spirit talk to me, the more I see Him move, and the stronger my faith becomes.

However, I will admit that I'm explaining that badly per my belief.

I'd also like to point out that in many of Paul's letters, regardless of whom he is addressing, he makes comments about ALL men, and quite often actually. Just because the letter is addressed to these people, doesn't mean that this statement of a measure of faith is referring to only saved people. In fact, we have no way of knowing that everyone in the Corinthian church was actually saved or not. To further show that, there is behavior in the Corinthian church that Paul says is absolutely horrible, like men having sex with their father's wife (mother, or step mother??) and they are bragging about it! Yeah, I think it's safe to say that when a letter was written to the "brothers" in the Corinthian church, it was a letter directed at the actual Christians there, and the "wanna-be" Christians.

It's like churches today; there are tons of people who think that going to church and living a good life is what saves you. There are tons of people that think they've accepted Christ, but haven't a clue what it is to be born again, because they've never been born again. I thought I was a Christian and "saved" up to the age of 16. But then, out of no where, I was born again. Wasn't even tryinig to look for God or be born again or anything like that. It happened in a completely weird situation that God used as a good excuse to say, "Brian, I know you're going to accept me, so here it is!" I didn't ask for it, but because He knew I'd accept it, He gave it to me and, heck...if you feel your sins forgiven and all the sin, shame and guilt fall off of you and you feel love and mercy and grace and happiness and joy come in, you're gonna' accept it too. There again, there are people that will not accept it...

Anyway, just wanted to point out that you and I are simply interpreting the passages differently. Neither one of our views are firmly supported and proveable in scripture. But I respect your view, though.

[BrianC]

You never addressed the verse in Romans where your interpretation would have to read: "For those whom he foreknew would choose him" But that is not what it says.


If you still cannot understand this part below


As I said, we simply have two different interpretations of scripture, and neither of our views are supposed firmly by scripture, because both can be interpreted differently. You simply refuse to acknowledge that scripture could support either of our views. And if you want to believe that, that's fine. That's your right. Just telling you that I read it differently.

When something is solid in scripture, I have no problem believing it and telling someone, "You are 100% wrong, because scripture says it perfectly here so that there's no confusion." But I don't see this as one of those beliefs that can be 100% solidified, because we do not know the mind of God.


Then not much can be done unless God opens your eyes to see it. I will leave you yet another verse which expresses the same thought.

John 6
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
You would probably try and put a twist on it to say "The Father draws those He knew would come to Him" and that is backwards from the way Scripture reveals it. The reason they come is because the Father drew them. He is the first cause here.


No, I'd say that everyone has been drawn by the Father to some extent, whether it's through the magesty of the creation and the universe, or whether it's through someone bringing them the message, or through miracles in their life... it all depends. And I could support my theory here by citing the verse that says, "MANY are called, but few are chosen." If God CALLS many, it means He's "drawing them" to some extent, but some are not choosing to accept the call, and therefore, are not chosen.


You must ask yourself, "does God draw all equally?" or "are all raised up at the last day" (saved). I assume you would say no.

Don't know if God draws all equally. Just know that many are called and few are chosen. Therefore, it could mean that God draws everyone equally, but only some choose to accept the call because He foreknew they would. Or, it could mean that God doesn't waste His time with a strong call to those He knows are not going to accept Him (those not chosen), but He must put the call out there so that no one has the excuse of, "You never called me. I never knew anything about you."

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

So, who knows? I'm just trying to get you to admit that scripture can be interpreted different ways, and that in this situation, it's possible there's more we don't understand about how God makes His selection. But you never ever reference the whole "logical choice" or "random choice" argument I keep bringing up. Why? Because it's makes your argument weaker.


Your view puts man in control when throughout Scripture God is clearly in control of those he saves. Please re-read my posts and reason with the Scriptures.

In verse 15 and 18 of Ch 9 Paul states a similar thought

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

How many times do I have to say this: GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SALVATION AND EVEN OUR DESIRE TO SEARCH FOR HIM AND RESPOND TO HIS CALL.

We're told that only the Father in heaven is good. And Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Father are all "one." So, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are all "good." In fact, God is the source of all "good."

It is a good thing to look and search for God, and it is competely contrary to the sin nature that every human has. Throughout the 1540 years of the pre-flood world, it ended with one family (and of that family, mainly Noah) believing in God. So, when humans live in a perfect environment (aside from the sin) and live nearly a thousand years, in all that time, they choose not to obey God. That's pretty good evidence that the sin nature is pure evil and no good exists in it. Therefore, God HAD to be responsible for the part of us that wants to seek Him. So, the question is this: Did He give that desire to everyone, or just the chosen? (Many are called, but few are chosen) Apparently, He gave that desire to more than just the chosen. However, I'll shoot my argument in the foot a little here by saying that we have to interpret the "call" as "being drawn." I do that because I'm fair and not one sided about this.

I've already admitted that there are different ways to interpret this view. But you refuse to budge, and you claim to know the mind of God and how He selects randomly. I've tried to end this multiple times by saying that this subject can be interpreted different ways, but you have one view that cannot be changed. And I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do about that. The verses you give are all dependent upon how you interpret God's decision making. Is it random or is it logical and intelligent? You won't address that, so I cannot continue to argue the point with you. That one question is what this all comes down to, and you won't answer it.

[BrianC]

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[/quote]

Same thing again with this verse. The question is, "HOW does God choose whom He will have mercy and and whom He will not have mercy on?" Is His decision random, or is it a logical, intelligently deduced decision?

Answer that question, and then we can go onto the next question, which is:

If he chooses intelligently through His infinite wisdom, then what did He think was important when choosing who He chooses?

Answer those, and we have a conversation. Don't back pedal onto something else we've discussed. This is about those two questions and nothing more, because that's what it all comes down to.

[Phillystang]

Same thing again with this verse. The question is, "HOW does God choose whom He will have mercy and and whom He will not have mercy on?" Is His decision random, or is it a logical, intelligently deduced decision?

Answer that question, and then we can go onto the next question, which is:

If he chooses intelligently through His infinite wisdom, then what did He think was important when choosing who He chooses?

Answer those, and we have a conversation. Don't back pedal onto something else we've discussed. This is about those two questions and nothing more, because that's what it all comes down to.
back pedal? ... heh heh
You use verses out of context that are addressed to "brothers" (believers) and say it applies to EVERYONE. You also ignore the plain words of Jesus that we didn't choose Him, but that he chose us before the foundations of the world.

Your theology is humanistic, and that is the problem. Your battle cry is "God can only act when he has the ok and permission of man. God can only choose/elect when He gets the ok from man." This is false.

Who is the author and perfecter of your faith? You?

What does Scripture say? Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith

then what did He think was important when choosing who He chooses?

Who chose who here Brian, I am still waiting on a verse that says God waited for men to choose him for him to make his decision? Don't back peddal, lol. Tell me Brian, what would the point be of all the verses talking about election, chosen, and predestined if these ideas were false or only a response to what man has total control of anyway? That is illogical.

James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

1 Thessalonians 1:3-54For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.

[Phillystang]

Brian, this time last year I was making the exact same arguments that you are making now. "Man chooses God of his own free will" I thought. I argued against people like myself now (what we're doing now much in the same way on discussion boards). I began to grow unsettled with my views the more I looked at Scripture and the more sermons I listened to from pastors I highly respect. Please don't think I am being hostile or angry with you as it may appear that way over just a forum. When people are convinced and convicted about things they tend to argue for it :) If 99 verses say one thing and our interpretation of 1 verse seems to say another thing, should we cling to that 1 verse in light of the entirety of Scriptures? Please reason with the Scriptures brother.

Look at Ezekiel 37, God speaks about the Jews regarding future events
4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life.


Ezekiel 37:13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land.

Now look at John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Ephesians 2 is marvelous...
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice how we were dead spiritually and that it is not from ourselves that we were made alive. Dead men cannot do anything. Dead men cannot choose God. When Jesus told Lazarus to get up, it would have been impossible for dead Lazarus to get up apart from God giving Him life to do it.

Romans 9 deals a deathblow to any notion of man's free will in salvation

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[ 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Notice how Paul says "What then shall we say? Is God unjust?"
Think logically now, Paul is anticipating the obvious answer from the critic- "God is unjust in not giving mercy to everyone"

Why would he make such an anticipation if man's free choice was the deciding factor? It wouldn't make since for him to write that if he taught that men were in control of their destiny.

Please meditate seriously over these verses, as I said before, they are hard to stomach at first, but these are some of the very doctrines that the reformers taught and have become quite unpopular in our day and age, these verses are avoided like the plague in most churches because people like to feel they are in control and hey don't want to deal with God's sovereignty.

[BrianC]

back pedal? ... heh heh
You use verses out of context that are addressed to "brothers" (believers) and say it applies to EVERYONE. You also ignore the plain words of Jesus that we didn't choose Him, but that he chose us before the foundations of the world.

I have never seen someone avoid a question so many times as if I never asked it. I have also never seen someone twist what I've said so many times when I keep telling them exactly the opposite. It's mind boggling.

The verse in Romans that says God has allotted to each a measure of faith is humbling the brothers by saying, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." This is to humble the brothers by saying, "God even gave the non-believers have an equal measure of faith." However, it could mean only Christians, because it is not specified here for certain.

I'd also like to point out that if Romans was written JUST to believers, it would not have "The Roman's Road" in it. I'm sure you know what that is. Romans goes through and explains to Jews (non-believers, might I add), about why they are still under the law and the law cannot save them, and then tells about how the gospel has gone out to the Gentiles. It goes on to explain exactly how everyone has fallen short of the glory of God and how to be saved. Gee, yeah, it really sounds like it's talking to JUST believers, because they sure do need to know how to be saved.

Let me give this argument. Let's say I write you a letter and it's addressed to Phillystang. I say, "Dear Phillystang....." then later in the letter I say, "You know, God gave everyone an equal measure of faith." Just because that letter is addressed to you doesn't mean it's only talking about you and me, and it also doesn't mean it's ONLY talking about Christians. You inform Christians about the outside world and how to understand them and relate to them and witness to them. Paul was doing the same thing. Even told the brothers not to be arrogant since God has given everyone an equal measure of faith. But, that's just my interpretation.


Your theology is humanistic, and that is the problem. Your battle cry is "God can only act when he has the ok and permission of man. God can only choose/elect when He gets the ok from man." This is false.

Wow, you are like a brick wall when I tell you what I believe. I have told you TONS of times that God is responsible for the part of us that can believe or seek Him out. It's FROM HIM. HE is ultimately responsible. Without that part of us that HE put there, we would not be able to search for Him at all. If you don't understand that this alone makes God responsible for even the possibility that we would choose Him, then there's nothing I can say. I've explained this clearly many times, and never once have you commented on it.


Who is the author and perfecter of your faith? You?

What does Scripture say? Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith

You do understand what this means, right?

We are only given a little measure of faith. That is the part of us that is from God and gives us the desire to seek Him and know His voice when He calls and the ability to believe in Him. Once we are born again and the Holy Spirit births a new unstainable spirit in us. At this point, we can utilized Christ's faith.

Once you're born again, God's goal is for you to drain yourself of "self" and your own desires, and instead, seek only God's will and let Christ live through us. The more we get rid of "self," the more Christ can live through us and do His will. Then, it's Him using HIS faith through us, a willing vessel.


Who chose who here Brian, I am still waiting on a verse that says God waited for men to choose him for him to make his decision? Don't back peddal, lol. Tell me Brian, what would the point be of all the verses talking about election, chosen, and predestined if these ideas were false or only a response to what man has total control of anyway? That is illogical.

Why should I answer your questions when you won't answer mine? I've already explained those verses to you. I use the same verses you do...


James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

1 Thessalonians 1:3-54For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.

Like I said, I'm not debating what those scriptures say. I'm using them for my argument too. But I'm asking a simple question about God's choice that you won't answer...

[BrianC]

Brian, this time last year I was making the exact same arguments that you are making now. "Man chooses God of his own free will" I thought. I argued against people like myself now (what we're doing now much in the same way on discussion boards). I began to grow unsettled with my views the more I looked at Scripture and the more sermons I listened to from pastors I highly respect. Please don't think I am being hostile or angry with you as it may appear that way over just a forum. When people are convinced and convicted about things they tend to argue for it :) If 99 verses say one thing and our interpretation of 1 verse seems to say another thing, should we cling to that 1 verse in light of the entirety of Scriptures? Please reason with the Scriptures brother.

I hate when people give the excuse, "I believed just like you did at one time and argued the same way you are arguing." No offense, but everyone has a different set of knowledge and of scripture and thinks with a different logic and strategy. Just because you were swayed to change your belief doesn't mean that you believe the right thing and that I believe JUST like you did. If that were so, you'd answer my question about God's choice, because you'd have believed the same thing about it.

I know you're not angry at me. It's just a debate. Nothing more.

And those 99 verses you're quoting, I'm quoting too and using them for my argument as well. But, as I keep saying, what I'm arguing cannot be pulled out of scripture, because it is not something that God discusses, to my knowledge, in the scriptures.


Look at Ezekiel 37, God speaks about the Jews regarding future events
4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life.


Ezekiel 37:13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land.

This is a prophetic verse that has already come to pass in 1948 when the Jews got the nation of Israel back again. Look at the talk of the "dry bones and flesh coming back onto the bones again." Now, go look at the pictures from the Holocaust. The big pits of starved Jews that are flesh and bone with almost no muscle. They would get thrown into those pits before they had died, a lot of the time, and would die in those pits of starvation or shock.

That happened up until the war was over in 1945. Then, in 1948, due to the attrocities the Jews went through, the United Nations decided to give the Jews their homeland again. That's when all of the Jews came out of the nations and back into their homeland again. But we're talking about the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, commonly referred to as just Judah. Hense the name "Jews." Israel, which was one of the names the other 10 tribes were called by, is a different story, though. They split away from Judah over 3,000 years ago. Those 10 tribes were taken down by the Assyrians and lead away in 724BC. In 722BC the Assyrians claimed total victory by seizing the final lands. In 724BC, the tribe of Israel, also called Ephraim, was dispersed into the nations of the world at that point. The prophecies of Ephraim are extremely interesting. They are prophecied to be dispersed into the nations, but eventually will be "planted in a plesant land" which is protected by the waters. We're told that Ephraim will tremble from the West (Hos 11:10 & Hos 7:8). Go west from Israel, and you have the Mediterrean Sea, then you keep going and you have the United States. You go any further West, and it's the East. :D

Anyway, the United States is one of the youngest nations, yet rose up and became the strongest nation in the world in the shortest amount of time since it's conception. We are the only nation that has a nation by the people and for the people (Democratic Republic), or at least, we are the first to do this. We have God all over our constitution and declaration of independence. We claim Judao-Christian values in our consitution and declariation of independence. We are the only nation that protects Israel.

The tribe of Joseph split into two tribes when Joseph had two sons: Ephraim and Menasseh. Menasseh was the firstborn and the blessing should have been given to him. However, Israel (the person Israel) blessed Ephraim instead of Menasseh, and said that Ephraim would become a greater people than Menasseh. This caused the original 12 tribes to become 13 tribes. When the 10 tribes (+1 - Ephraim) split from Judah & Benjamin, the 10 (+1) tribes were called Ephraim, because Ephraim was the warrior tribe and by far the strongest tribe, the protector of the othe 10 tribes. So 12 became 13 before the split.

The United States had 12 original colonies, but the Carolinas were too big to govern, so they split them into North and South Carolina. So the 12 became 13, and we had 13 original colonies that became our first 13 states at our conception in 1776.

The tribe of Levite (the tribe of preists) was originally given 48 cities to live in. The United States was comprised of 48 states up until it acquired Alaska (Jan 3rd, 1959) and Hawaii (Aug 21st, 1959). And there are prophecies about how the Jews will call God "Master," but we will call Him "husband" (some translations say "friend.") The church is called the "bride of Christ." Also, Jesus said that we are not his slaves, because the master does not tell the slaves what he is doing, but He, Jesus, tells us ahead of time what His plans are.

Here's another interesting fact, and I'm not going to go into the details of all of these 2500 year prophecies, but there is a prophecy about one of the two parts of Israel (Judah & Israel [aka - Ephraim]) which says they will be dispersed into the nations, but that the dispersion will be completed in time, times and half a time. You can prove through other Bible verses and Hebrew writing style that time, times & half a time means 1 + 1 + 1/2, which equals 2.5. And you can prove also that "time" means 1,000 years Biblically. That would be 2,500 years. Here's an interesting conincidence:

724BC - Ephraim (10 [+1] tribes led away captive and dispersed into the nations)
Add 2500 years: -724BC + 2500 = 1776AD (the year the U.S. became a nation)

Here's another "coincidence:"
552BC (the Jews [Judah & Benjamin]) are taken over by non-Christian empires, and remain under non-Christian empires from then on out.
Add 2500 years: -552BC + 2500 = 1948AD (the year Israel became a nation again with no non-Christian empire ruling over them)
Yeah, there's a 2500 yr prophecy about this one too. Coincidence?

Here's another "coincidence:"
533BC (the wall of Jerusalem is commanded to be rebuilt in the 3rd year of Cyrus, which is 533BC, the same year Daniel is given this prophecy about 2500 years)
Add 2500 years to 533BC: -533BC + 2500 = 1967AD (the year of the six day war where the Jews got control of the temple mount again for the first time in over 1300 years, but this time, with no Gentiles controlling it. They had total control again, finally).

Coincidence? I don't think so... All three of the "time, times & half a time" prophecies in the Bible are all fulfilled on these three dates. Pretty interesting... One's in Revelation, and the other two in Daniel. Dan 7:24, 12:7, I think...and I forget the verse for the one in Revelation...

So, as you can see, these are clearly prophetic verses. They don't have anything to do with election and free will and choice.

Also, it's important to notice that once you choose God and enslave yourself to Him, you are sort of giving up your right to free will, to some extent. Because you cannot even lose your salvation at that point. You're going to haven regardless. Look at Jonah trying to excersize his free will. He tells God he isn't going to the Ninevites and goes on a ship in the opposite direction. God lets him end up in a whale for 3 days till he's broken down and says, "Fine, I'll do what you want me to do...." Granted, God had to slap Jonah around a little bit to make Jonah choose to obey Him, but either way, Jonah committed. The Jews committed via Abraham long ago. They ARE His people, and He will control their destiny, because it's not about them. It's about His name on His people. Why do you think the Law was so strict? This is God's name we're talking about here. But Paul does say that branches can be cut off of the olive tree (olive tree is Israel), meaning not EVERY Jew will be saved, but many will.

Can't use those verses to argue your point. (and that got us WAY off topic...) Sorry...


Now look at John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Jesus is pleased to give life to anyone that accepts Him. This is not a useable verse to make your point.


Ephesians 2 is marvelous...
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were deadin transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice how we were dead spiritually and that it is not from ourselves that we were made alive. Dead men cannot do anything. Dead men cannot choose God. When Jesus told Lazarus to get up, it would have been impossible for dead Lazarus to get up apart from God giving Him life to do it.

And this is exactly what I've been saying. God is the one that puts the faith in us to give us the ability to seek Him, believe in Him, and choose Him. Therefore God is the one that's responsible for us being saved. How many times have I said this already? At least 5 times. You keep proving my case for me. But this is NOT the issue at hand. You're arguing the wrong issue. That's why we keep going in circles...


Romans 9 deals a deathblow to any notion of man's free will in salvation

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[ 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

I have never seen anyone read into things so much. Define "mercy" and "compassion." Oh yeah, those don't mean "salvation." I can have mercy on you by not kicking you in the groin, but it doesn't mean I just gave you salvation. LOL :D I can have compassion for you and I didn't give you salvation. Even in context, it's not certain that this is about salvation.

But let's assume it is about salvation, in which case, it still, yet again, proves my case that God is ultimately the one that's responsible for our salvation. And yet again, this is NOT the right issue that I'm trying to discuss!


Notice how Paul says "What then shall we say? Is God unjust?"
Think logically now, Paul is anticipating the obvious answer from the critic- "God is unjust in not giving mercy to everyone"

Why would he make such an anticipation if man's free choice was the deciding factor? It wouldn't make since for him to write that if he taught that men were in control of their destiny.

Please meditate seriously over these verses, as I said before, they are hard to stomach at first, but these are some of the very doctrines that the reformers taught and have become quite unpopular in our day and age, these verses are avoided like the plague in most churches because people like to feel they are in control and hey don't want to deal with God's sovereignty.

No, they're not hard to "stomach" at first. They're completely understandible. God is responsible for our salvation. This is not the issue at hand, though.

Please, DO NOT reply to this particular message. I'm tired of discussing the wrong issues. I'm going to post again right after this post and I'll give the ACTUAL question that we are discussing.

[BrianC]

Phillystang

1. We know that God knows the future
2. We know that God knows us better than we know ourselves
3. We know that God knows every choice we're going to make in our lives
4. We know that God is 100% wise, intelligent & logical

Answer this one question:

Did God choose randomly, or did God use His wisdom, knowledge of the future, knowledge of everyone and every move they'd ever make to decide whom He would choose to get His purpose and will fulfilled on the earth?

It's a simple question. Just answer that one question, and nothing more.

[Phillystang]

Phillystang

1. We know that God knows the future
2. We know that God knows us better than we know ourselves
3. We know that God knows every choice we're going to make in our lives
4. We know that God is 100% wise, intelligent & logical

Answer this one question:

Did God choose randomly, or did God use His wisdom, knowledge of the future, knowledge of everyone and every move they'd ever make to decide whom He would choose to get His purpose and will fulfilled on the earth?

It's a simple question. Just answer that one question, and nothing more.
1. True
2. True
3. True
4. True, but the logical addition you put on there for God may not be exactly the same logic you would use, let me explain. It is not about logic at that point.

Let's talk about eating. Some people eat because they are hungry. Some people eat because they are depressed. Both are logically correct.

You are putting confines on God's sovereignty in election by saying it it only logical for God to elect based on something he foresaw humans doing down the road in the future. This is a logical reactionary act. "I will predetermine them because I see that they will choose me."

It is also equally logical for God to have his own purposes in election, (according to the purposes of his will- *notice- his will)where man does not come to God based on what God foresaw man willingly doing, but according to God's predetermined reasons in election, he saw fit to make sure his elect come to him. They come to him because they are elect. They come to him because they are his sheep. The only way men can come to Christ is if God draws him, and it is obvious from experience that all are not drawn equally. The apostle Paul and Lydia were drawn much stronger than perhaps a person who has not heard the Gospel in 14th Century Australia based on the testimony of God in nature. This becomes not a reactionary act of God but instead a sort of first cause in God. This is what we are arguing about. God is merely reacting or God is causing.

Isaiah 64:8
Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

You missed the intent of the passages of the dead.

Now look at John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

You are saying that God knows who will respond to his work in raising people from Spiritual deadness. Of course he does. Because he is the one raising the dead! He is the one who purposed to raise from the dead. If someone is not raised from the dead (spiritually) it is not because God foresaw that that person would not come alive, that is silly. If someone is made alive, then they will be alive based upon the power of the one that gave life. God is the first cause here, not just reacting.

Notice the purpose of the Son, " to whom he is pleased to give it". This is about salvation!

[BrianC]

1. True
2. True
3. True
4. True, but the logical addition you put on there for God may not be exactly the same logic you would use, let me explain. It is not about logic at that point.

Let's talk about eating. Some people eat because they are hungry. Some people eat because they are depressed. Both are logically correct.

You are putting confines on God's sovereignty in election by saying it it only logical for God to elect based on something he foresaw humans doing down the road in the future. This is a logical reactionary act. "I will predetermine them because I see that they will choose me."

It is also equally logical for God to have his own purposes in election, (according to the purposes of his will- *notice- his will)where man does not come to God based on what God foresaw man willingly doing, but according to God's predetermined reasons in election, he saw fit to make sure his elect come to him. They come to him because they are elect. They come to him because they are his sheep. The only way men can come to Christ is if God draws him, and it is obvious from experience that all are not drawn equally. The apostle Paul and Lydia were drawn much stronger than perhaps a person who has not heard the Gospel in 14th Century Australia based on the testimony of God in nature. This becomes not a reactionary act of God but instead a sort of first cause in God. This is what we are arguing about. God is merely reacting or God is causing.


I can't believe this.... or I should say, I can believe it, because it keeps happening. Once again, you have not answer the question:

"Did God choose randomly, or did God use His wisdom, knowledge of the future, knowledge of everyone and every move they'd ever make to decide whom He would choose to get His purpose and will fulfilled on the earth?"

God's will is to have His purpose fulfilled on earth. How do you do that? You look ahead into the future and with all of your foreknowledge, you choose who is best suited for you to work through to get your purpose done on earth. The people who are best to work through are the ones who will accept Him!

BUT WAIT, because you keep misunderstanding this part. I never said that the choice is the FIRST thing that causes God to save us. I said that the basis of our ability to even choose God COMES FROM HIM THROUGH THE FAITH HE GIVES US! Then I said that it is STILL impossible for us to choose Him without His call! (used scripture for both of those statements) So I've accredited God with the first two steps of us even having the ability to choose Him, which means that He is responsible for our being saved. Why do you never address my saying this? You keep going back to "it's a reactionary choice." No, it's not. He is responsible for our ability to accept Him in the first place. He is responsible for the call to salvation also. So, He gets first billing twice here. THEN, we choose Him. If you're a wise God and know the future and know everyone better than themselves, you logically choose who is best suited to submit to you so you can fulfill your purpose through them.

It is only logical to deduce that God chose us in His infinite wisdom, His will, because of His knowledge about us and the future, and He did so to fulfill His purpose.

A logical God demands this be the reasoning for His choice. Otherwise, God is completely random in choosing and there's no reasoning. You say that He chose according to His will to fulfill His purpose. Gee, that's exactly what I said. Except I attributed His choice to His infinit wisdom and foreknowledge and the logical deduction of choosing those that would allow Him to live through them to fulfill His purpose. You, on the other hand, are saying that God chose completely randomly, but somehow would get His purpose fulfilled. How does that make any sense whatsoever?

PLEASE answer my question this time and don't dance around it:

"Did God choose randomly, or did God use His wisdom, knowledge of the future, knowledge of everyone and every move they'd ever make to decide whom He would choose to get His purpose and will fulfilled on the earth?"


Isaiah 64:8
Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

This is once you've accepted God. Isaiah is telling God to work through him and shape him into whatever God's wants him to be. This speaks nothing of election or salvation. It speaks of living without selfish intentions, and instead submitting to God to allow Him to shape you. Did He shape the homeless man into a drug addict? Wow, that's sad. Did He shape Jimmy Swaggart into an adulter? Wow, nice job! (I think it was Swaggart...I forget) No, they screwed up on their own because they did not let God shape them. They were prideful in their knowledge and got way off track and look what happened to them? The Jews are a good example in the Old Testament. The Jews wanted a king, and God said, "Why? You have me?" They still demanded a king, and God finally gave them one. They go against God throughout the entire Old Testament, because of pride and not allowing God to shape and mold them; a lack of submission.


You missed the intent of the passages of the dead.

Now look at John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

You are saying that God knows who will respond to his work in raising people from Spiritual deadness. Of course he does. Because he is the one raising the dead! He is the one who purposed to raise from the dead. If someone is not raised from the dead (spiritually) it is not because God foresaw that that person would not come alive, that is silly. If someone is made alive, then they will be alive based upon the power of the one that gave life. God is the first cause here, not just reacting.

Notice the purpose of the Son, " to whom he is pleased to give it". This is about salvation!

It doesn't matter. The Son is pleased to give life to ANYONE that accepts it.

You're saying that God will force Himself on anyone he pleases, even if they hate him. And even if that person rejects what they've been given right as God's giving it, God doesn't care? The person could immediately start cursing God, saying, "I DON'T WANT YOUR SALVATION! LEAVE ME ALONE!" but you say, "Oh, no, God's got that guy covered completely against the guy's will. The guy would go out and curse God the rest of his life. (I've seen some people accept Christ and then curse Him later and completely turn from Him and deny He even exists. But, nothing like someone hating God and in a split second receiving God's glory, and then immediately cursing God again, because they didn't want God to save them. That's what would happen all the time if God just randomly chose people like you're saying. We'd have people getting saved and immediately cursing God and hating Him because they don't want Him to save them.

Wish you'd answer my one simple question without dancing around it...

[Phillystang]

You're saying that God will force Himself on anyone he pleases, even if they hate him. And even if that person rejects what they've been given right as God's giving it, God doesn't care? The person could immediately start cursing God, saying, "I DON'T WANT YOUR SALVATION! LEAVE ME ALONE!" but you say, "Oh, no, God's got that guy covered completely against the guy's will. The guy would go out and curse God the rest of his life. (I've seen some people accept Christ and then curse Him later and completely turn from Him and deny He even exists. But, nothing like someone hating God and in a split second receiving God's glory, and then immediately cursing God again, because they didn't want God to save them. That's what would happen all the time if God just randomly chose people like you're saying. We'd have people getting saved and immediately cursing God and hating Him because they don't want Him to save them.


Oh my...
God changes their nature from God haters to God lovers.

Look at Romans 3
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

A God hater doesn't automatically of his own will decide to love God because that is not his nature. It takes an act of God in regeneration to make that God-hater be a God lover.

Look at Ezekiel 11
18 "They will return to it and remove all its vile images and detestable idols. 19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

God is not making their old nature do something it doesn't want to do coercively, rather he gives them a new nature that loves Him. The reason a person comes to Christ is through a regenerative work that God does. If God does not act in this way, then no one will come to Christ and endure in the faith, no one.

So you see, God's foreknowledge in what will happen is not merely looking down through history and seeing what men will do, no, on the other hand, people will do what their natures are bent towards. They will continue in their sins if God leaves them alone, or they will turn to God in faith if God gives them the faith. God does not have to guess or wait upon men to see what they will do, they do what they do because of the work that He does in them.

It is like saying God knows what color your eyes are. Does He know this simply because He can see through to the future and see that you were born with blue eyes apart from his control over creation or has he purposed to create you with blue eyes from the beginning? I would argue the latter. (I am using blue eyes as an example) You might say, what purpose or logical reason do I have blue eyes, well it must be that God foresaw that I would have blue eyes and so determined that I would have blue eyes because of his foreknowledge, this is just as silly as what you are saying. He is creator.

Just look at the word ELECT. In governmental terms, is a president elected because of the prior determination of the voters to vote for him

or...

is the president elected because the voters knew who would be president and based upon that they voted for him...

[Phillystang]

I can't believe this.... or I should say, I can believe it, because it keeps happening. Once again, you have not answer the question:

"Did God choose randomly, or did God use His wisdom, knowledge of the future, knowledge of everyone and every move they'd ever make to decide whom He would choose to get His purpose and will fulfilled on the earth?"


God chose according to his purpose. What exactly is that purpose. We don't know and you don't know either. Knowledge of the future has no bearings on what God does. He is not bound by what may happen in the future, for the future is merely events that God has orchestrated in the first place. You must ask yourself, why do some come to Christ and some don't? If you look back at Romans, left to themselves no one comes to Christ apart from God drawing them. A dead man cannot follow God unless he is made alive by God. God does not make all men spiritually live, He does not give everyone a Spiritual rebirth. None seek God, we must pray that God would change hearts if we expect a lost man to come to Christ. A lost man will not come to Christ unless faith it is given him from God.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Who does the Father give Christ, those that He foresees will choose Him, No, those that He has purposed to give life to.

Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

[poopnut2]

I believe we're all predestined to die.

[Fastback]

I believe we're all predestined to die.

That is a really good point. We are predestined in more ways than one.

[BrianC]

God chose according to his purpose. What exactly is that purpose. We don't know and you don't know either. Knowledge of the future has no bearings on what God does. He is not bound by what may happen in the future, for the future is merely events that God has orchestrated in the first place. You must ask yourself, why do some come to Christ and some don't? If you look back at Romans, left to themselves no one comes to Christ apart from God drawing them. A dead man cannot follow God unless he is made alive by God. God does not make all men spiritually live, He does not give everyone a Spiritual rebirth. None seek God, we must pray that God would change hearts if we expect a lost man to come to Christ. A lost man will not come to Christ unless faith it is given him from God.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Who does the Father give Christ, those that He foresees will choose Him, No, those that He has purposed to give life to.

Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

King David wrote most of the Psalms. He had the Holy Spirit on him, as we see in Samuel. King David was not the high priest, yet he walked into the Holy of Holies and talked to God there and did not die (If someone other than the high priest went into the Holy of Holies, he would be struck down dead, and if the high priest hadn't confessed and sacrificed an offering for all of his own sins, he would also be struck dead; that's why they tied a rope around his waste before going in...so they could pull him out if he was struck dead). So, this is no normal Jews writing this...David was very similar to us, in that he had the Holy Spirit.

Here's what David writes in Psalm 91:14

Psalm 91:14
14"Because he (anyone) has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him securely on high, because he has known My name.... 16...And let him see My salvation."

Well, gee, look at that! God says here, "I will deliver him BECAUSE he has loved me." We call Jesus our "deliverer because He has "delivered us" from sins. That's exactly what the above verse is talking about, and it's not prophetic in nature.

Now, "My salvation" or "God's salvation" is Yeshwuah in Hebrew, which is Jesus' name in Hebrew. It's possible that this verse says "Jesus," but the Jews knew Him as the Lord salvation. But, that's just a cool little theory. I'd have to look it up in Hebrew, and I don't have time right now.

The point is that BECAUSE you love God, He delivers you. Sounds pretty responsive to me. He chooses us BECAUSE He knows who will choose to love Him because of the faith God put in everyone so that they would have the capacity to seek Him and love Him. God is responsible, but we must choose to either block out that desire to seek Him, or act upon it. If we are going to act up on it, God knew that before the foundation of the earth, and chose us because of it.

So, have any arguments against that verse? It's God's speaking. I'd love to hear how you think God's contradicting Himself here. :D (just kidding)

[Phillystang]

King David wrote most of the Psalms. He had the Holy Spirit on him, as we see in Samuel. King David was not the high priest, yet he walked into the Holy of Holies and talked to God there and did not die (If someone other than the high priest went into the Holy of Holies, he would be struck down dead, and if the high priest hadn't confessed and sacrificed an offering for all of his own sins, he would also be struck dead; that's why they tied a rope around his waste before going in...so they could pull him out if he was struck dead). So, this is no normal Jews writing this...David was very similar to us, in that he had the Holy Spirit.

Here's what David writes in Psalm 91:14

Psalm 91:14
14"Because he (anyone) has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him; I will set him securely on high, because he has known My name.... 16...And let him see My salvation."

Well, gee, look at that! God says here, "I will deliver him BECAUSE he has loved me." We call Jesus our "deliverer because He has "delivered us" from sins. That's exactly what the above verse is talking about, and it's not prophetic in nature.

Now, "My salvation" or "God's salvation" is Yeshwuah in Hebrew, which is Jesus' name in Hebrew. It's possible that this verse says "Jesus," but the Jews knew Him as the Lord salvation. But, that's just a cool little theory. I'd have to look it up in Hebrew, and I don't have time right now.

The point is that BECAUSE you love God, He delivers you. Sounds pretty responsive to me. He chooses us BECAUSE He knows who will choose to love Him because of the faith God put in everyone so that they would have the capacity to seek Him and love Him. God is responsible, but we must choose to either block out that desire to seek Him, or act upon it. If we are going to act up on it, God knew that before the foundation of the earth, and chose us because of it.

So, have any arguments against that verse? It's God's speaking. I'd love to hear how you think God's contradicting Himself here. :D (just kidding)

1 John 4
19We love because he first loved us.


If we are going to act up on it, God knew that before the foundation of the earth, and chose us because of it.

Why do some act and some don't? because of some good in themselves to pick God.

You may respond, "God gives us all equal amounts of faith an some still deny Him"

Why do they still deny Him while others don't? Is their will to sin greater than God's will to save them? Why do some believe? Is their will to accept the things of God greater than their will to sin? What does Romans say? Men don't seek God and men are God haters? God haters don't choose God over their sin unless God FIRST changes their heart in regeneration.

What about Lazarus? Did he rise from the dead because God knew he would or did Lazarus rise from the dead because God gave him life? Compare God raising Lazarus to Jesus giving life. Life given precedes choice to act. See the verse below.

Now look at John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Did you look at the word elect, or predestined, or chosen? What are there normal definitions? Why do you change their meaning when applied to the Bible though? Do you have that liberty?

[flashstang04]

Now, "My salvation" or "God's salvation" is Yeshwuah in Hebrew, which is Jesus' name in Hebrew. It's possible that this verse says "Jesus," but the Jews knew Him as the Lord salvation. But, that's just a cool little theory. I'd have to look it up in Hebrew, and I don't have time right now.



Ok Brian , sorry to put you on the spot about this, but I am gonna need more info here. I got excited when I read this.......

Maybe in another thread or email. To me, that is a HUGE claim.....

[BrianC]

1 John 4
19We love because he first loved us.



Why do some act and some don't? because of some good in themselves to pick God.

You may respond, "God gives us all equal amounts of faith an some still deny Him"

Why do they still deny Him while others don't? Is their will to sin greater than God's will to save them? Why do some believe? Is their will to accept the things of God greater than their will to sin? What does Romans say? Men don't seek God and men are God haters? God haters don't choose God over their sin unless God FIRST changes their heart in regeneration.

What about Lazarus? Did he rise from the dead because God knew he would or did Lazarus rise from the dead because God gave him life? Compare God raising Lazarus to Jesus giving life. Life given precedes choice to act. See the verse below.

Now look at John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Did you look at the word elect, or predestined, or chosen? What are there normal definitions? Why do you change their meaning when applied to the Bible though? Do you have that liberty?

I just find it highly entertaining that I show you where God says that He delivers someone because they loved Him, and you go back to the old discussion that we've been off of for a long time. I've already told you that God puts the love in us and the capacity to love, and He does that because He FIRST loves us, and through that part of us that is from God, we have the capacity to love Him. Therefore, He first loves us and gives us faith (the ability to seek and love and believe in Him). He looks ahead and sees who will choose to love Him by accepting the gift of salvation and chooses them ahead of time. So, in two ways we see that God FIRST loved us ahead of time by choosing us, then we love Him and He saves us. Don't backtrack like this again. I've told you many times that God is responsible for our faith, our ability to seek and love and believe in Him, and the call. This means God IS the source of our salvation from beginning to end. However, in His wisdom and foreknowledge of the future and of us, He chooses logically to save the people who will submit to Him and accept His salvation.

You refuse to accept that God is logical and wise in His decision making in order to get His purpose done. You refuse to answer that one question, "How does God choose: randomly or is there logic and wisdom to His choice?" Because if you ever answer that honestly, it will kill your argument. And I just proved it with the verse in Psalm 91 where God says BECAUSE he loved Him, He delivers him and shows him His salvation.

I'm sorry, but there's a reason you're the only one debating this with me. You cannot answer one question, because if you did, it kills your argument. Everyone knows that and will not join in on this debate because of it. Most likely, they believe like I do. Logic demands it. But you refuse to be logical by saying, "God chooses randomly." You may not say those exact words, but that is exactly what you're suggesting. You're saying, "God uses no wisdom or foreknowledge of if we will love or accept Him or submit to Him. Instead, He just randomly chooses and makes us do His purpose." That would mean we have absolutely no free will. Once He chooses us, He has to MAKE us do His will.

That's not right, because Jonah proves that. Jonah didn't want to do what God said, so he leaves. God puts him in a whale for three days in order to discourage Jonah against disobeying God's will. If God could MAKE you do what He wants, then He would not have had to coerse Jonah by putting him in a whale.

Please, explain the whole "whale" thing with Jonah in your grand scheme of predestination. And answer my question honestly, please: "Does God choose randomly, or does He choose wisely with all of His foreknowledge, intellect and wisdom?"

In your theory, there could be a person out there that LOVES God to pieces, but because God hasn't chosen that person, that person is condemned. Why? Because our choice has NOTHING to do with it. How do you answer that?

[BrianC]

Ok Brian , sorry to put you on the spot about this, but I am gonna need more info here. I got excited when I read this.......

Maybe in another thread or email. To me, that is a HUGE claim.....

Like I said, this is just a theory. Let me show you the Hebrew word for "My Salvation" in Psalm 91:16

yĕshuw`ah
1) salvation, deliverance
a) welfare, prosperity
b) deliverance
c) salvation (by God)
d) victory

Find this here:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=03444

Now, Yeshuwah in Hebrew is the name "Joshua." There are no capitol letters in Hebrew, and no punctuation. So, it's impossible to know what was actually being talked about here. But look at the definitions for Yeshuwah: Salvation by God or God's salvation. Or, if it's God saying it, like in Psalm 91:16, it would say "My salvation." This whole verse is about what JESUS does.

Here's the thing, though. Jesus' name in Hebrew is Yeshuwah (Joshua in English).

So, God says that because he has loved Me (God), I will DELIVER Him...I will show him My salvation. This very well could read, "I will show Him Jesus." But who knows? There's no way to know for certain. Therefore, this is only a theory.

But yes, it is true that Jesus' name in Hebrew is Joshua (Yeshuwah) which mean's God's salvation.

It is very important to keep theory in the Bible completely 100% separate from our solid beliefs. It's ok to dabble in theory and keep it in mind. It's far more important to believe only in the solid foundational truths that can be proven in the Bible, though, and keep theory in its place. Because in the long run, an incorrect theory could cause a lot of false doctrine, as we have seen with the cult churches. Very important to never go too far with your belief in theorys. They're more fun to just play with and consider, but dangerous to invoke in your foundational beliefs unless they're 100% solidified, and then they are no longer theories. This is the best way to stay in the truth and not risk going outside of it.

[BrianC]

Knowledge of the future has no bearings on what God does. He is not bound by what may happen in the future, for the future is merely events that God has orchestrated in the first place. You must ask yourself, why do some come to Christ and some don't?


So, you openly admit that God does not even consider the future when making His decisions? Wow... I never knew any man had such a direct understanding of the mind of God. That's a pretty bold statement there. You'd have to know God's mind to know this for certain. The Bible would tend to disagree with you 100%. Because it says, "For those He FOREKNEW, He predestined." In order to predestine someone, you must see the future. In order to foreknow someone (know someone ahead of time), you must see the future. Obviously, God's knowledge of the future played a role in His choice. You are really stumbling over yourself now to hang on to this belief that God's choice is completely random and has nothing to do with His foreknowledge of whether we'll choose to accept and submit to Him. Sorry, but your foundation just falls right out from under you when you attempt to even partially answer my question.

[BrianC]

I'm thinking we should start a new Predestination or Free Will thread and start out with this one question I've been trying to get Phillystang to answer. And see how many people answer it the way I do, and how many answer it the way Phillystang answers it. Logic will show through pretty quickly.

[BrianC]

Ok Brian , sorry to put you on the spot about this, but I am gonna need more info here. I got excited when I read this.......

Maybe in another thread or email. To me, that is a HUGE claim.....

Hey, let me show you some other things David wrote about in the Psalms that say "salvation" but could possibly mean Jesus. And remember, David had the Holy Spirit, and therefore, was saved just like we are today.

Psa 69:29
29 - ...let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.

Replace Salvation w/ Jesus:
29 - ...Let Jesus, O God, set me up on high.


Psalm 70:4
4 - Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; and let those who love Your salvation say continually, "Let God be magnified."

4 - Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; and let those who love Jesus say continually, "Let God be magnified."

Psalm 78:22
22 - Because they did not believe in God And did not trust in His salvation.

22 - Because they did not believe in God and did not trust in Jesus.

Psalm 98:2
2 - The LORD has made known His salvation; He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.

2 - The LORD has made known Jesus; He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.

It's kind of disturbing how Jesus' name actually fits in tons of these passages. However, there are many passages that use "salvation (strongs #3444)" and Jesus will not fit in that verse in context. So, it's very hard to know if sometimes this should've been translated Jesus, or if it always was supposed to be "my salvation." Who knows? Very cool to look at, though. Job and David both knew they had a "Redeemer" in heaven. Maybe they really did know of Jesus... I figure the Holy Spirit probably told them about Jesus (their Redeemer) since both of them spoke about the Redeemer.

[Phillystang]

I just find it highly entertaining that I show you where God says that He delivers someone because they loved Him, and you go back to the old discussion that we've been off of for a long time. I've already told you that God puts the love in us and the capacity to love, and He does that because He FIRST loves us, and through that part of us that is from God, we have the capacity to love Him. Therefore, He first loves us and gives us faith (the ability to seek and love and believe in Him). Why do they love him though? How do God-hater turn into God-lovers?

He gives this to everyone? So all the people that Romans 1 talks about are given the ability to seek, love, and believe in Him? What does the Scriptures say?

1."ability to seek Him" Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

2."to love Him" Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters...

3. "to believe in Him" Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

You will probably insist that everyone is given the ability? Right?

Once again, let's look at the Scriptures...

John 6:65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Is everyone enabled? Many disciples just left Jesus at this part of the story.
Once again your view has it mixed around from where the Bible time and again places the order.

Biblical: God first enables, elects, regenerates, chooses, predestines..... then Man turns to God. God's choice is ultimately sovereign in salvation.

Your view: Man first chooses God..... then Seeing this act of man from eternity past, God wills that those who choose Him will be predestined and called. Man's choice is ultimately sovereign in salvation.

Please look at the above closely and see where you are mixing the order.

John 17:2
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

To all that He foresaw would choose Him??? No, No, No, "to all those you have given him."


He looks ahead and sees who will choose to love Him by accepting the gift of salvation and chooses them ahead of time.
Once again, what verse says this?

So, in two ways we see that God FIRST loved us ahead of time by choosing us, then we love Him and He saves us. Don't backtrack like this again. I've told you many times that God is responsible for our faith, our ability to seek and love and believe in Him, and the call. This means God IS the source of our salvation from beginning to end. agree

However, in His wisdom and foreknowledge of the future and of us, He chooses logically to save the people who will submit to Him and accept His salvation.Disagree, already discussed with Scriptural support. Think about it, does God raise a dead man only because he foresaw that the dead man would get up OR does the dead man get up because God raised him ???

I don't see how you cannot see the logic in that. The dead man's choice is directly the result of the life first given. God is the first cause, not the dead man's response.

You refuse to accept that God is logical and wise in His decision making in order to get His purpose done. You refuse to answer that one question, "How does God choose: randomly or is there logic and wisdom to His choice?" Because if you ever answer that honestly, it will kill your argument. And I just proved it with the verse in Psalm 91 where God says BECAUSE he loved Him, He delivers him and shows him His salvation.

1 Cor.
You refuse to accept the clear words from Scripture and instead revert to what seems logical to you, "For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." (1 Cor. 1:25)

You refuse to answer that one question, "How does God choose: randomly or is there logic and wisdom to His choice?

You refuse to accepts God's Word on the issue and so you resort to your own conclusion. How does God choose? (this answer may seem illogical to you but it comes from God's Word) :

1 Cor 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

I'm sorry, but there's a reason you're the only one debating this with me. You cannot answer one question, because if you did, it kills your argument.
:rolleyes:

You cannot handle the fact that God is sovereign over who He has mercy on and you have the wrong order on how the whole matter works. If God raises up a dead man, they will be alive indeed. If He chooses not to, they will remain in their grave. There is no looking forward for God to see what they will do or how they will respond, because the power of new spiritual life comes from God in the first place. It is an efficacious work of God. He doesn't sit around crossing His fingers hoping men will accept Him. They accept Him because He determined to save them.


Everyone knows that and will not join in on this debate because of it. Most likely, they believe like I do. Logic demands it. But you refuse to be logical by saying, "God chooses randomly." You may not say those exact words, but that is exactly what you're suggesting. You're saying, "God uses no wisdom or foreknowledge of if we will love or accept Him or submit to Him. Instead, He just randomly chooses and makes us do His purpose."
No one else cares probably, or they haven't researched it enough is what I would assume.


That would mean we have absolutely no free will.
You're finally getting it :D

Once He chooses us, He has to MAKE us do His will.
He gives us a new nature, a new heart, he changes our will... which come with new desires. Refer back to the Ezekiel verses from a couple posts back. Once again, He doesn't force people to do what they don't want to do. Their wants change when they are born again. They now hate the sin they once loved and love the righteous and holy and good things they once hated.

That's not right, because Jonah proves that. Jonah didn't want to do what God said, so he leaves. God puts him in a whale for three days in order to discourage Jonah against disobeying God's will. If God could MAKE you do what He wants, then He would not have had to coerse Jonah by putting him in a whale.Refer to my explanation below. God disciplines and goes after those He loves.

Please, explain the whole "whale" thing with Jonah in your grand scheme of predestination. And answer my question honestly, please: "Does God choose randomly, or does He choose wisely with all of His foreknowledge, intellect and wisdom?"

"The whale thing"
Hebrews 12
5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

In light of this verse, you must ask yourself, does God seek to discipline everyone the same? Are all sought to the extreme such as Jonah? No, only those that are true sons. The Lord disciplines those that He loves.

Think back to Judas Iscariot and Peter. Peter denies Jesus 3 times, Judas Iscariot hands Jesus over to the officials to be tried. Both are pretty serious offenses against the Lord! Jesus forgives Peter despite his betrayal but does nothing again for Judas. Jesus doesn't follow after Judas to forgive him or give him responsibility to grow the Church, or prevent his suicide. How come Brian, since God works so equally with everyone towards their decision to choose Him?


In your theory, there could be a person out there that LOVES God to pieces, but because God hasn't chosen that person, that person is condemned. Why? Because our choice has NOTHING to do with it. How do you answer that?
Wrong, how can you say God hasn't chosen that person? We have no idea who God has chosen or has not.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

If someone is truly loving God through Christ and is born again, based on the many verses we can conclude that they are chosen of God.

[BrianC]

1."ability to seek Him" Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

2."to love Him" Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters...

3. "to believe in Him" Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

You will probably insist that everyone is given the ability? Right?

Once again, let's look at the Scriptures...

John 6:65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Is everyone enabled? Many disciples just left Jesus at this part of the story.
Once again your view has it mixed around from where the Bible time and again places the order.

Biblical: God first enables, elects, regenerates, chooses, predestines..... then Man turns to God. God's choice is ultimately sovereign in salvation.

Your view: Man first chooses God..... then Seeing this act of man from eternity past, God wills that those who choose Him will be predestined and called. Man's choice is ultimately sovereign in salvation.

Please look at the above closely and see where you are mixing the order.

I agree with everything you've said, except that I have the order wrong. I have the exact order you're expressing here. I've told you this MANY times! But you refuse to believe me, because if you believe that I am attributing this to God as being the first cause, then you have to answer the question, "How does God choose us," at which point your argument would crumble. You still refuse to answer it. You keep going back to the causation being God, which I have already said that God is the cause, giving us the ability to seek and love and choose Him. But you keep hammering this into my head as if I'm saying something different than this. Stop repeating my words back to me, please! I AGREE that God is the first cause, period. It's you that MUST keep rehashing this point to make it out like I'm saying that our choice is the causation and the first step. I never said anything like that. I said God looked ahead and knew who would choose Him because He knew their hearts, and He logically chose those people to be saved, because that's TRUE LOVE. Forced love is not true love. True love MUST be chosen. I choose to love my wife unconditionally. She could never have forced me to do so. God could never have forced me to love Him. Period. It was always my choice, but He knew my heart ahead of time, and knew that if He gave me the faith to seek and love and believe in Him, and He put out the call, I would respond and accept. In other words, I would CHOOSE to love Him, and He would deliver me. Gee, where have I heard that before:

Psalm 91:14-16
14"Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him securely on high, because he has known My name.
16...And let him see My salvation."

You must openly defy God's words right here in Psalm 91:14-16 in order for your view to be correct. Why must you insist on openly defying what the Bible says? NOTHING I've presented has contradicted any of the verses you've used to prove your case. Not one. But for you, though... You've just contradicted Psalm 91:14-16 with your belief that God does not choose us based upon whether we will love Him and accept Him or not.

Like I said, HE puts the faith (ability to seek, believe and love God) in us, but it is our choice whether to choose Him or be hard hearted toward Him. He is the initial cause, but knowing our hearts, He picked whom would pick him. It's that simple and it does not contradict the Bible.

Explain Psalm 91:14-16 in your theory.



John 17:2
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

God gives those to Jesus whom He foreknew would choose Him, then Jesus conforms them to His image. Pretty simple. Doesn't conflict with the Bible.


To all that He foresaw would choose Him??? No, No, No, "to all those you have given him."

It's you that has the order screwed up here. God FOREKNEW FIRST, chose us, and those He chose, He gave to Jesus to be conformed to His image. It's VERY simple, but for you, I think this is simply a battle of pride. That's just my opinion. I've said many times that this just comes down to a difference in opinion/view. And you won't even accept that. It's your way or else, and another view cannot be possible. Just because someone doesn't see something the same way you do doesn't mean they're wrong. Sorry, but I cannot break through a barrier of pride, because pride says, "I'm right, and that means anything differently than what I believe is wrong, period. My belief is infallible." I can't compete with that.


Disagree, already discussed with Scriptural support. Think about it, does God raise a dead man only because he foresaw that the dead man would get up OR does the dead man get up because God raised him ???

I don't see how you cannot see the logic in that. The dead man's choice is directly the result of the life first given. God is the first cause, not the dead man's response.

Don't bring in raising the dead in regard to Lazarus. That's not salvation. Stop resorting to other context completely trying to support your ever sinking view. Stay on topic and stop rehashing the God causation. I've already agreed with you there many times. But you keep having to rehash it so you don't have to answer the question I keep asking.


1 Cor.
You refuse to accept the clear words from Scripture and instead revert to what seems logical to you, "For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." (1 Cor. 1:25)

You assume I got this from human wisdom. Who says God didn't show this to me? You assume the lack of logic in your view must mean you're correct since we don't understand the mind of God? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Pride blinds.


You refuse to accepts God's Word on the issue and so you resort to your own conclusion. How does God choose? (this answer may seem illogical to you but it comes from God's Word) :

1 Cor 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

Once again, I agree. It is because of God we are saved. Why? Because without God FIRST instilling in us the ability to seek, believe and love Him, we would not have had the capacity to do these things in order to be saved. YES, GOD IS RESPONSIBLE! Now STOP rehashing this! This is NOT the question or the argument. We agree on this point. What we do not agree on is if there is logic to His choice. None of what you just cited in that verse speaks of the logic of His choice. YOu can interpret "weak things of the world" and "lowly things of this world and despised things" anyway you want. Either way, it does not speak of HOW He chooses us. It speaks of the types of people He uses to shame the world. It is THEIR choice to accept Him...thos lowly and despised people. And out of them, God makes great leaders and strong Christians to make the world look stupid. You really have to stop resorting to these off-topic arguments. I've only used scripture that specifically speaks to the subject at hand, and I have no resorted to scriptures that don't directly deal with the subject. You are MAKING these scriptures say what you want them to say when they don't say that at all. Takes a lot of assumption. I don't do "assumption" if I can help it. I admit, though, that my view assumes God is logical and intelligent and wise in His decision making. It would be stupid for God to NOT look ahead to the future, like you suggested before, which is completely against the Bible. You just keep digging a deeper hole.


:rolleyes:

You cannot handle the fact that God is sovereign over who He has mercy on and you have the wrong order on how the whole matter works. If God raises up a dead man, they will be alive indeed. If He chooses not to, they will remain in their grave. There is no looking forward for God to see what they will do or how they will respond, because the power of new spiritual life comes from God in the first place. It is an efficacious work of God. He doesn't sit around crossing His fingers hoping men will accept Him. They accept Him because He determined to save them.

I have the order correct. It's the only way it makes sense with free will and predestination and true love. Period. If your view is correct, and there is no free will, then God has no purpose in us being here on earth. He's already marked who He'll mark for salvation, and they will be in heaven, period, and no one else. Therefore, why bother with life at all? Just choose everyone up front and make them all go to heaven immediately and be done with this cherade.

But wait...if we have free will, then that changes everything. That means life and time has to play out over the years so we can accept or reject God.

Once again, your theory falls apart when logic is thrown into the picture. You sound like a mad Calvinist. Did you know there was a book written by Calvin that was translated in the last 50 years and it told all about how Calvin suggested you torture and kill those that disagree with the Calvinistic view. Yeah, Calvin had some good teachings, and then some bad ones, and he himself was VERY wrong about killing those that disagreed with him. That's just messed up. You, sir, will not back down. You won't agree that we disagree on this and that it is possible for their to be another possible view on this. Again...that just seems like pride to me, and if so, I cannot compete with pride, because there's no logic, just: "I must be right."


He gives us a new nature, a new heart, he changes our will... which come with new desires. Refer back to the Ezekiel verses from a couple posts back. Once again, He doesn't force people to do what they don't want to do. Their wants change when they are born again. They now hate the sin the once loved and love the righteous and holy and good things they once hated.

No, if you are born again, you still have free will and choice, except in regard to salvation. That's solidified. But when it comes to your choice to follow God or not, you can blatantly disregard that call. I see born again Christians do it all the time. Jonah, though, is a different story altogether. Jonah agreed to be God's prophet. He accepted the call. Once He did that, He was submitting Himself to God, PERIOD, which trumps His free will. He can TRY to resist, but God will make his life a living hell, because God holds you to your word. And if it gets bad enough, you'll do what He wants you to do. You should really look into prophetic ministry sometime. This is very true with the prophetic.


Refer to my explanation below. God disciplines and goes after those He loves.

Oh, come on!!! Stop giving these arguments about things completely off topic. All I was doing was showing that Jonah has free will, and chose to excersize it. And God could not MAKE him do anything, but rather He had to coerse Him back into doing what God wanted him to do. That's on topic. God disciplining His children is completely different. That's how we grow in our relationship with Him and has NOTHING to do with free will. The hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper with you. Better climb out before it's too deep to get out...


"The whale thing"
Hebrews 12
5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

In light of this verse, you must ask yourself, does God seek to discipline everyone the same? Are all sought to the extreme such as Jonah? No, only those that are true sons. The Lord disciplines those that He loves.

This is completely off topic and has nothing to do with free will. I will not give another response to this. Also, I've moved the topic to a new thread. I'm done with this thread. I want other people's input now.

[BrianC]

Why do they love him though? How do God-hater turn into God-lovers?


Answer me one question, under your theory:

Let's say there's a man that loves the Lord with all of his heart. You're saying that even though this man has chosen to love the Lord with all his heart and has accepted Jesus, that unless God CHOOSES this guy, he's never going to be saved, right?

[BrianC]

Crap, I'm sorry. I forgot that I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore. lol Whoops. I'll refrain from posting in this thread again. My mistake. I'll switch to the other thread only for this conversation.

[Phillystang]

Answer me one question, under your theory:

Let's say there's a man that loves the Lord with all of his heart. You're saying that even though this man has chosen to love the Lord with all his heart and has accepted Jesus, that unless God CHOOSES this guy, he's never going to be saved, right?

For the last time, a man that is unregenerate will not love God and accept Jesus.

John 10
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Why don't they believe Brian? Because they didn't choose him? No wait a minute, in the present they are not believing so forget about what God saw in the future. Why are they not believing now, in the present?

"you do not believe because you are not my sheep"

Think this through logically, for your theory that we choose God and then seeing that choice in the future, God elects and chooses. What does this verse say Brian?

They don't become sheep by believing, they believe because they are sheep.

[Fastback]

Crap, I'm sorry. I forgot that I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore. lol Whoops. I'll refrain from posting in this thread again. My mistake. I'll switch to the other thread only for this conversation.

Why you hatin on my threads?? LOL