Iran may buy 250 jets from Russia

[ZYouL8R]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/07/...ghters_070730w/

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By Philip Ewing - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Jul 30, 2007 11:21:58 EDT

Iran is in negotiations with Russia to buy 250 state-of-the-art fighter jets, an Israeli newspaper reported, in a pointed response to a new American bid to sell billions of dollars’ worth of weapons to potential Iranian adversaries in the Middle East.

The English-language Jerusalem Post of Israel reported Monday that top Israeli defense officials are investigating the potential Iran-Russia deal, in which Iran would pay $1 billion for about a dozen squadrons’ worth of Sukhoi Su-30 “Flanker” fighter-bombers. As a part of the deal, Iran would also buy aerial tanker planes that could extend the fighters’ range.

Russia has already supplied Iran with modern surface-to-air missile defense systems, intended to protect nuclear facilities from potential Israeli or American airstrikes. Russian officials have defended those sales, saying they are within their rights to sell any nation weapons for its self-defense.

The Jerusalem Post report appeared two days after the American press reported that President Bush wants to ramp up American arms sales to several Middle Eastern countries, including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, in a deal that could be worth as much as $20 billion, in the hopes of limiting the expansion of Iranian influence in the Middle East.

An Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman decried the Americans weapons deal Monday on a state-sponsored Web site.

“What the Persian Gulf region needs is stability and security,” said Mohammad-Ali Hosseini. “Americans have been trying to disturb it by selling weapons to the region.”

The two-seat Su-30 is a popular Russian export fighter. Models are already in service with the Chinese, Indian and other militaries, and there are variants deigned for naval aviation. The fighter can carry a maximum weapons payload of more than 17,000 pounds, according to Jane’s All the World’s Aircraft, and has a range, on internal fuel, of about 1,620 nautical miles, but that can be extended to 2,805 nautical miles with one midair refuel.

The Su-30’s listed performance capabilities are comparable to or better than the three primary American fighters deployed to Iraq: the Navy’s carrier-based F/A-18 Hornet and the Air Force’s F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon.

If it acquired the Flankers, Iran would enjoy a quantum leap forward in its air power capability. Iran has invested much of its resources in surface-to-air missile defenses, but its fighter fleet now consists of decades-old American exported F-14 Tomcats and F-4 Phantoms, and an unknown hodgepodge of 1970s-era Russian fighters, including Su-25 “Frogfoots,” and newer models, including the MiG-27 “Flogger.”

[Skidmark]

Oh great...

[AL P]

Those will look great at the bottom of the Persian Gulf!!

[BP]

Those will look great at the bottom of the Persian Gulf!!

Beat me to it! Or buried in the sand.

20 Israeli F-16s can take out that entire air force in a matter of hours.

[Vertnut]

If history is any indication, Iran doesn't have 250 pilots capable of flying the fucking things... X2 on ALP's comment.

[mikeb]

If history is any indication, Iran doesn't have 250 pilots capable of flying the fucking things... X2 on ALP's comment.

That was my first thought. The planes don't mean anything if they don't have qualified pilots to fly them. I doubt they have "top gun" quality flight training over there either. They'll make nice sitting targets in the air.

[Bubbaearl]

i have yet to see anything the fucking Iranians can do. they've had their ass kicked so many time that it's funny. russa will make billions replacing the one we shoot out of the sky. by the end of nam we were doing a pretty good job flaming the migs.

[Dragonfly]

Those aircraft are like F1 cars... it takes a HUGE amount of tallent and equipment to keep them working. So not only will they not have the pilots they also will not have the tallent on the ground to make it work.

I would much rather see them blowing thier resources on something like this than some of the other things they could be using it on. A couple well placed Tomahawk type D (bomblets) cruise missles and that new air force is history.

Dragonfly

[LMPChris]

That's ok we just made a deal to sell Saudi some jets... Let the fun begin, can we say Iran F-14 deal all over again in 10 years when Saudi hates us.


WASHINGTON — The Bush administration has decided to supply billions of dollars in advanced new weapons to Saudi Arabia, other Arab allies of the United States and to Israel, senior State Department officials and congressional aides said Friday.

The arms and aid package, which the officials said is to be announced on Monday, is part of a U.S. initiative to reassure worried allies in the Middle East that despite its troubles in Iraq, the United States remains committed to the region. It also is meant to send a signal of resolve to Iran's increasingly confident leaders.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates leave for the Middle East on Monday on a rare joint mission to deliver those messages in person to the region's leaders.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the package has not yet been announced, said it would include selling Saudi Arabia advanced weapons known as Joint Direct Attack Munitions, or JDAMs. JDAMs convert simple gravity bombs into accurate "smart" weapons.

Israel protested the proposed sale when word of it first leaked in April.

The package also will include new weapons for the United Arab Emirates, another U.S. ally in the Persian Gulf, and both military and economic support to Egypt. Other details of the proposed arms sales weren't immediately available Friday.

Although it's likely to be controversial, the administration has decided to proceed with the sale and will compensate Israel — which seeks to maintain a "qualitative military edge" over its Arab neighbors — with military upgrades of its own, the officials said.

"All that has been sorted out," said a senior State Department official.

Israel has asked for access to the Air Force's most advanced fighter jet, the F-22 Raptor, and its stealth technology, which makes the aircraft more difficult to see on radar.

Administration officials shared details of the proposed arms sales with members of Congress this week. Congress has the power to block such sales, but the White House is hoping to avoid a major fight on the issue.

The weapons sales, however, are almost certain to be criticized by democracy and human rights advocates.

President Bush and Rice have criticized the lack of democracy in some of the countries — particularly Egypt — that Washington will now help re-arm.

But the Bush administration is eager to fend off the notion, which has begun to take root in the Middle East because of the U.S. domestic debate over withdrawing troops from Iraq, that America's commitment to the region's security is in question.

"We haven't had significant military sales there in some time," the official said.

Under a 10-year agreement that will soon expire, the United States has been phasing out economic aid to Israel and increasing military assistance.

After meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert at the White House last month, Bush issued a statement saying that he told Olmert, "I am committed to reaching a new 10-year agreement that will give Israel the increased assistance it requires to meet the new threats and challenges it faces."

Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns is expected to travel to Israel in early August to negotiate the agreement.

[Dragonfly]

Some information from Wikipedia about the Tomahawk type D cruise missile:

The TLAM-D contains 166 submunitions in 24 groups; 22 groups of seven each, and two groups of six each to conform to the dimensions of the airframe. The submunitions are the same type of Combined Effects Bomblet used in large quantities by the U.S. Air Force. The submunitions can be deployed four groups at a time, however, in order to achieve a sufficient density of coverage typically more than four groups are dispensed at a time. When used in this manner one Tomahawk can attack multiple targets.

What it does not mention is that these were designed to take out aircraft on the ground and destroy runways. Take a look starting at 1:37 in the video, it is not the best I have seen but it is what I could find.


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Dragonfly

[ZYouL8R]

I'm just glad our F-15C's might finally get some action.

[BP]

Those aircraft are like F1 cars... it takes a HUGE amount of tallent and equipment to keep them working. So not only will they not have the pilots they also will not have the tallent on the ground to make it work.


The Russians will maintain them and train the pilots. Hell I wouldn't be suprised if they even fly the planes for them. They did it in East Germany with their armored divisions. Maybe they'll do a Berlin repeat and build a huge wall!

[Walsted]

I wonder what the people of Iran think about the economic issues surrounding that purchase.

[JimD]

Let them fools waste their cash on em, give our pilots some practice shooting shit down.

[BP]

I wonder what the people of Iran think about the economic issues surrounding that purchase.

Ask Stang Seller!

[Schargedcobra97]

The Su-30’s listed performance capabilities are comparable to or better than the three primary American fighters deployed to Iraq: the Navy’s carrier-based F/A-18 Hornet and the Air Force’s F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon.
that true?

[Mr Majestyk]

Iranian pilots, like the Iraqi pilots under Saddam, are pussies. Their "air force" would be destroyed on the ground in the event of war with Isreal and/or the U.S. before they even got off the ground, because those planes won't fly when the pilots are hiding in a mosque with their little tails between their legs. Iran is incapable of fighting a technologically sophisticated war.....in their war with Iraq they simply relied on the archaic technique of pouring bodies at the enemy like ants. While that might still work for the Chinese in a place like Korea, the Iranians wouldn't stand a chance using it against a air and sea attack.

[SlowLX]

All thats gunna happen is a rise in profits for both supplying countries. The Iranian AF wouldn't last long agianst a determined AF of a western power or Israel. As long as the Suadi royalty is still in power and still has oil they'll still be our ally. But it would be funny if Israel and Egypt had a return to violence. Flying similar jets since Egypt is now getting our military vehichles rather than soviet vehicles.

[lefty1300]

Isreal can destroy a WHOLE air force on the run-way......just ask egypt :)

[jw33]

One word:
training

[lowthreeohz]

Isreal can destroy a WHOLE air force on the run-way......just ask egypt :)

I beat Israel can too.

[Vertnut]

One "Sopwith Camel" in the air, can take out 250 of the baddest Mig's (when they're on the ground). ;)

[Trip McNeely]

I bet that would be fun to watch. lol DIRKA DIRKA, BOOM!! I would think their only weapon with a plane like that would be a Kamikaze.

[Fox466]

I take it the general consensus is that we don't mind?

[Vertnut]

I take it the general consensus is that we don't mind?
That's a big 10-4... ;)

[thesource]

The Russians will maintain them and train the pilots. Hell I wouldn't be suprised if they even fly the planes for them. They did it in East Germany with their armored divisions. Maybe they'll do a Berlin repeat and build a huge wall!

I am thinking the same thing just like in Viet Nam as well .

[SlowLX]

I am thinking the same thing just like in Viet Nam as well .
And Korea and for the most part our pilots still outshot them. I would be curious however to see how Israeli pilots match up against Russias tops

[lowthreeohz]

And Korea and for the most part our pilots still outshot them. I would be curious however to see how Israeli pilots match up against Russias tops
No comparison. Israel is #1 in the air, though we're stronger in sheer number.

[SlowLX]

No comparison. Israel is #1 in the air, though we're stronger in sheer number.
It'd still be fun to see from cnn watching a dogfight between Israel and Russia, I couldn't go so far as to put them as number1 right off the bat. I believe a naval fighter squadren one for one could tango with them as well as Germany has one of the premier AF's but they havent really had a war to show off their skills like israel and us.

[Sean88gt]

They are used to suicide missions, so I would imagine their fleet won't last tooooo long.

[ALLAN]

I'm just glad our F-15C's might finally get some action.
pfffffffft....F-22A :D

[5.0LiterRiceEater]

At least it's not the Su-37. Can you say trust vectoring.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/313270/su_37/

[Paladin]

that true?

It may be true that the planes have more capability than ours in the gulf area, but the pilots that will be flying them, even if they are Russian, will be so far inferior to our pilots that they won't stand a chance.

[ZYouL8R]

pfffffffft....F-22A :D

It'll take an act of God to get the F-22 to deploy.

[D]

It'll take an act of God to get the F-22 to deploy.

No...it will just take more than one full active squadron of them before the deploy any...

My gut reaction to this was that its not good. If Russia trains the pilots and maintainers, we could have a potential shit storm on our hands. Russia can't afford to fly their jets, so they have to find someone that can afford to. Why not Iran?

At least we know Putin doesn't care about his relationship with the US.

At least it's not the Su-37. Can you say trust vectoring.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/313270/su_37/

Yeah...they look good at an airshow, but they are unproven in combat and would likely be fucked three ways from the weekend if they had to go up against a season USAF fighter pilot in an F-15C.

[Schargedcobra97]

the original link doesn't work anymore? why would airforcetime take it down

[BP]

the original link doesn't work anymore? why would airforcetime take it down

They just moved it, http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2007/07/navy_iran_fighters_070730w/

[Walsted]

I take it the general consensus is that we don't mind?
I'm not sure, but this may actually work to our advantage. I saw something on the news a while ago that said that the average Iranian wasn't real fond of the way the government was spending money. I don't know how true that was, but IF it was true, and IF Iran is having economic difficulties, a billion dollar fighter jet purchase isn't going to go over well with the general populace, even if the $4 million per jet price (if the 250 jets for a billion dollars price is accurate,) is a real bargain. Thus, the purchase would hurt their internal economics and further erode the current government's popularity.

[Sgt Beavis]

I'm like many guys here that wave that flag and point to our military as being the badasses that they are.

However, NEVER underestimate another countries military.

Case in point, the Indian Air Force who DEFEATED the US Air Force at COPE India exercises a few years back. It showed that some of our Air Force wings were under equipped and under trained. It also showed that a well trained force with good tactics can pose a real threat to even our Air Force. The Indian Air Force was primarily using Mig 29s for that competition at the time. Now they have a good mix of SU-30's. (BTW, the India is a strong military ally of the US)

Now that's not to say that Iran is some huge force to be feared. Most certainly not. As of today, their biggest air asset is their SAM capability. It will take several years for Iran to actually acquire those aircraft and more time to become a cohesive force. However it can be done.

So my point is, don't take ANY enemy lightly.

[SlowLX]

I'm like many guys here that wave that flag and point to our military as being the badasses that they are.

However, NEVER underestimate another countries military.

Case in point, the Indian Air Force who DEFEATED the US Air Force at COPE India exercises a few years back. It showed that some of our Air Force wings were under equipped and under trained. It also showed that a well trained force with good tactics can pose a real threat to even our Air Force. The Indian Air Force was primarily using Mig 29s for that competition at the time. Now they have a good mix of SU-30's. (BTW, the India is a strong military ally of the US)

Now that's not to say that Iran is some huge force to be feared. Most certainly not. As of today, their biggest air asset is their SAM capability. It will take several years for Iran to actually acquire those aircraft and more time to become a cohesive force. However it can be done.

So my point is, don't take ANY enemy lightly.
Hasn't the AF been lagging behind dogfight training?? I've always considered the navy to have the best fighter pilots.

[lowthreeohz]

Hasn't the AF been lagging behind dogfight training?? I've always considered the navy to have the best fighter pilots.

Til the wars in the sandbox, i don't think the AF had any real experience since Vietnam..

[sc281_99-0135]

haha giving them to iran? wasnt this the same iran that had over a million of their people die when they fought iraq because they wer to stupid to have their men trained properly (and by properly i mean at all!) they thought claiming a gihad against iraq was enough to counteract bullets, nerve gas, jets, and tanks

let them have thier jets, they cant use them effectively enough to take out planes on the ground much less our guys in the air. can you say 15 to 1 kill ratio? can you say ALALALALALALALALAALAH!

[Slowhand]

“What the Persian Gulf region needs is stability and security,” said Mohammad-Ali Hosseini. “Americans have been trying to disturb it by selling weapons to the region.”


...says the man defending iran...

[BP]

haha giving them to iran? wasnt this the same iran that had over a million of their people die when they fought iraq because they wer to stupid to have their men trained properly (and by properly i mean at all!) they thought claiming a gihad against iraq was enough to counteract bullets, nerve gas, jets, and tanks


In case you missed the newsflash, Iran won the war against Iraq. Iraq invaded Iran and was kicked out by their military. Without our support Sadam's regime would have been overthrown 20 years ago.

The Soviets used the same tactics against Germany in WW2 and we all know how that ended. Lots and lots of bloodshed but they took Berlin.

[Vertnut]

In case you missed the newsflash, Iran won the war against Iraq. Iraq invaded Iran and was kicked out by their military. Without our support Sadam's regime would have been overthrown 20 years ago.

The Soviets used the same tactics against Germany in WW2 and we all know how that ended. Lots and lots of bloodshed but they took Berlin.
I'm not too sure 60 year-old tactics would work now. ;)

[BP]

I'm not too sure 60 year-old tactics would work now. ;)

They'd work better. Instead of hundreds of thousands of kids running over mine fields they'd only need 5 or 6 and a CNN camera crew before we'd puss out. Get the media out and drop a couple of wadcutters on them and we'd have a field day.

[ALLAN]

I'm like many guys here that wave that flag and point to our military as being the badasses that they are.

However, NEVER underestimate another countries military.

Case in point, the Indian Air Force who DEFEATED the US Air Force at COPE India exercises a few years back. It showed that some of our Air Force wings were under equipped and under trained. It also showed that a well trained force with good tactics can pose a real threat to even our Air Force. The Indian Air Force was primarily using Mig 29s for that competition at the time. Now they have a good mix of SU-30's. (BTW, the India is a strong military ally of the US)

Now that's not to say that Iran is some huge force to be feared. Most certainly not. As of today, their biggest air asset is their SAM capability. It will take several years for Iran to actually acquire those aircraft and more time to become a cohesive force. However it can be done.

So my point is, don't take ANY enemy lightly.
It's pretty much well known that cope india was set up yo get more F-22's.
Lets see what India could do if the F-15s weren't nuetered and held back.

[Vertnut]

They'd work better. Instead of hundreds of thousands of kids running over mine fields they'd only need 5 or 6 and a CNN camera crew before we'd puss out. Get the media out and drop a couple of wadcutters on them and we'd have a field day.
Agreed.

[Casper]

This pisses me off:

...and will compensate Israel...

Compensate them for fucking what?