foreign conflict fundementally unresolvable?

[ScottJ]

I've been pondering this for some time.

Are nation's such as ourselves fooling ourselves that some resolution will come betwenn ourselves and those who violently oppose us in the middle east (and other regions)?

For example, my best 'general' understanding of the US's conflict strategy in Afaganistan is to smoke out the extreme isalmics while offering aide to a broken and poor nation-state.

While doing this, the enemy gladly sends its own to commit suicide and kill our troops, and locals that take their aide.

The whole affair seems dysfunctional with no peace in sight, and some of our best military stratigists argue the same.

So quit helping? No that doesn't work. So stay and keep helping? Well ok, but to what specific point of disassociation of control?

I'm more and more confused as to our countries target objective in the middle east, and from a strategic point of view, uncertian that our approach to eliminate radical islamic fundamentalist threats is a long-term solution.

The ONLY alternative approach i can think of to snuffing out those that jihad is to change their extreme point of view, but how do you do that? There is no Security from a person that is ready to die, none at all.


Its kinda of depressing to come to a point of hopelessness with all this but thats kinda where I'm at personally. The upside is the tremendous POSITIVE impact our government has made with those indegenous to troubled regions, I can't imagine living in the constant fear of death, starvation, sickness, or a combination of other realities in the middle east.


Anyone have similar thoughts here??

[BottleRocket]

I've been pondering this for some time.

Are nation's such as ourselves fooling ourselves that some resolution will come betwenn ourselves and those who violently oppose us in the middle east (and other regions)?

For example, my best 'general' understanding of the US's conflict strategy in Afaganistan is to smoke out the extreme isalmics while offering aide to a broken and poor nation-state.

While doing this, the enemy gladly sends its own to commit suicide and kill our troops, and locals that take their aide.

The whole affair seems dysfunctional with no peace in sight, and some of our best military stratigists argue the same.

So quit helping? No that doesn't work. So stay and keep helping? Well ok, but to what specific point of disassociation of control?

I'm more and more confused as to our countries target objective in the middle east, and from a strategic point of view, uncertian that our approach to eliminate radical islamic fundamentalist threats is a long-term solution.

The ONLY alternative approach i can think of to snuffing out those that jihad is to change their extreme point of view, but how do you do that? There is no Security from a person that is ready to die, none at all.


Its kinda of depressing to come to a point of hopelessness with all this but thats kinda where I'm at personally. The upside is the tremendous POSITIVE impact our government has made with those indegenous to troubled regions, I can't imagine living in the constant fear of death, starvation, sickness, or a combination of other realities in the middle east.


Anyone have similar thoughts here??

Too much coffee at work Scott? :p


but really, i completely agree with you. there is no end in sight, which could partially be caused by the fact that the "end" isnt defined clearly

[SlowLX]

Small Wars and Counter-Insurrgency ops are some of the hardest military operations possible. And unfortuantly one of the best pieces of literature on it, The Small Wars Manual, in which the Marine Corps bases its doctrine off of is pre WWII. There hasn't been a better or more updated version since then. Supposedly they are working one now, but the current conflicts look alot like the bananna wars of the 20s and 30s which took for fucking ever to resolve.

[Strychnine]

Radical Islam has not reconciled with the modern world, and right now these modern radicals have gotten a taste of power and are flexing their muscles. Short of carpet bombing the whole lot, about all you can do is eliminate what you can see and then support/promote the moderates and help them make changes from within.

You might be right; maybe we won't see an end to this conflict of culture and ideals... but with the modern world moving and advancing at an ever quickening pace, giving up is not an option. This fight will continue forever unless something changes within the radical Islamic sects. Whether other countries want to admit it or not, this comes down to The Modern World (not just the US) vs. a Violent Sub-Culture.

In the end it boils down to one thing:


"If we lose it, there isn't another America to pull us out."

[46Tbird]

They need a Wal-Mart, one with a built-in McDonalds.

As for where this is really going, some of you might want to read the Bible, it's in there.

[SlowLX]

Radical Islam has not reconciled with the modern world, and right now these modern radicals have gotten a taste of power and are flexing their muscles. Short of carpet bombing the whole lot, about all you can do is eliminate what you can see and then support/promote the moderates and help them make changes from within.

You might be right; maybe we won't see an end to this conflict of culture and ideals... but with the modern world moving and advancing at an ever quickening pace, giving up is not an option. This fight will continue forever unless something changes within the radical Islamic sects. Whether other countries want to admit it or not, this comes down to The Modern World (not just the US) vs. a Violent Sub-Culture.

In the end it boils down to one thing:
Its not

"If we lose it, there isn't another America to pull us out."
its not necessarily when we pull out, but rather when we stop going in. America has been engaged in small global conflicts almost continuously over the 20th century. Many of which have not been succesful after the 50 year mark or where complete failures in the publics eyes. We're not instilling democracy, but rather confronting and trying to counter ideas that are currently popular and oppose democracy and capitalism.

[FSON]

I have been told by my Lebanese and Iranian friends and an unfortunate Saudi Arabian acquaintance that the radical Islamic movement that we see today was started in the late 50s and early 60s by radical Islamic clerics in Saudi Arabia and this trend continues to this day. This is one of the fires.
The centuries long rift in the Islamic community is another fire.
The very fundamental ideology of Islam is another fire.
As has been said, the inability to transition into a "modern" society and the resulting frustration is another fire. In the long run, this is probably the key concept in this process.
The unspoken, frightened Islamic moderates will trigger this "modern" transition. When they open their mouths and start flexing their muscles, the transition will have turned toward the light and away from the proverbial Islamic night.

[White trash wagon]

They need a Wal-Mart, one with a built-in McDonalds.

As for where this is really going, some of you might want to read the Bible, it's in there.

I had no idea you were such a Christian. ;)

Scott

[SlowLX]

I had no idea you were such a Christian. ;)

Scott
damnit scott i thought u had something usefull to add, now Im probably 2 pages down on the soap opera threads :(

[AL P]

What do you expect? We've lost the idea that war should be as physically uncomfortable and as horrible as possible for the enemy. It should be so terrible that they beg us to stop. Not anymore though, we have the new war where we give the enemy food and medical aid! And balloons, Hooray!

In the crusades if a peasant from a village killed a knight, his order might slaughter everyone in the whole town. While I don't think you have to be that extreme, you could apply that same sort of methodical thinking to the current war. What if we destroyed every mosque within a 10 mile radius of the spot of any american casualty?

But I digress, we have no stomach for that even though the war would probably be over in a matter of weeks. How can you expect to win when you restrain your men in the field with politicially correct horseshit?

[White trash wagon]

What do you expect? We've lost the idea that war should be as physically uncomfortable and as horrible as possible for the enemy. It should be so terrible that they beg us to stop. Not anymore though, we have the new war where we give the enemy food and medical aid! And balloons, Hooray!

In the crusades if a peasant from a village killed a knight, his order might slaughter everyone in the whole town. While I don't think you have to be that extreme, you could apply that same sort of methodical thinking to the current war. What if we destroyed every mosque within a 10 mile radius of the spot of any american casualty?

But I digress, we have no stomach for that even though the war would probably be over in a matter of weeks. How can you expect to win when you restrain your men in the field with politicially correct horseshit?


I actually agree with 90% of that. While I feel Bush's reasons for going into Iraq were invalid, if your gonna do it,do it right....scorched earth. Even hyenias know, never wound a lion, always kill it.

Scott

[jones4stangs]

....about all you can do is eliminate what you can see and then support/promote the moderates and help them make changes from within.
That's kind of the way I see it. You can't ever make a deal to your advantage with the extremist. You end of making the deal with the moderates within that same community. Part of that deal being that the moderates will get control of the extremist. With moderated being defined as those who don't oppose what you desire to accomplish.

So, for your example of Afghanistan: The Taliban and Al Qaeda are the extremist. The new Afghan government and old warlords (I'm assuming they are still controlling the drugs.) are the moderates. As such, Afghanistan will be crazy for us until the moderates can deal with the extremist. For me dealing at this point means they keep their activities confined to Afghanistan.

I see it as a big balancing act, one made easier if you have the moral high ground, and more expensive when you don't. That's why I find foreign policy so intriguing.

Are nation's such as ourselves fooling ourselves that some resolution will come between ourselves and those who violently oppose us in the middle east (and other regions)?
I say no.

[jones4stangs]

What do you expect? We've lost the idea that war should be as physically uncomfortable and as horrible as possible for the enemy. It should be so terrible that they beg us to stop. Not anymore though, we have the new war where we give the enemy food and medical aid! And balloons, Hooray!

In the crusades if a peasant from a village killed a knight, his order might slaughter everyone in the whole town. While I don't think you have to be that extreme, you could apply that same sort of methodical thinking to the current war. What if we destroyed every mosque within a 10 mile radius of the spot of any american casualty?

But I digress, we have no stomach for that even though the war would probably be over in a matter of weeks. How can you expect to win when you restrain your men in the field with politicially correct horseshit?
I love this response. Really. I'm always trying to get my mind around the ways conflicts are/can be solved now, verse how things were done historically.

Obviously, you'll say I don't have the stomach for how things were done "back in the day". Especially when thing are done out of "our interest", which may or may not stand on moral ground.

[thesource]

The middle east has been like this since the beginning and will continue to be like this until the end . Its all they know ..........

[99SVTour]

They need a Wal-Mart, one with a built-in McDonalds.

As for where this is really going, some of you might want to read the Bible, it's in there.

my thoughts as well, we dont have any control over what the end result is going to be

[AL P]

I love this response. Really. I'm always trying to get my mind around the ways conflicts are/can be solved now, verse how things were done historically.

Obviously, you'll say I don't have the stomach for how things were done "back in the day". Especially when thing are done out of "our interest", which may or may not stand on moral ground.

Who does have the stomach for the way things were done back in the day? The only people who can do that shit anymore are the Islamic extremists. It's just another reason why we are leaning towards failure by fighting a horseshit politically correct war.

[talisman]

They need a Wal-Mart, one with a built-in McDonalds.

As for where this is really going, some of you might want to read the Bible, it's in there.



Are the end times upon us?

[black01gt]

my thoughts as well, we dont have any control over what the end result is going to be
Hmmm...I always heard that God helps those who help themselves.

Start a bonfire in your living room and see what the end result is... (God shakes his head in amazement :confused: )

[ScottJ]

Where is the intellegence (no sarcasm intended)?

What is being done to eliminate the supply chain and flow of funds that enable
terrorist activities?

If ever there were a need for top notch spy ops to eliminate enemy weapons
transport, supply cache's, etc, now is that time.

I don't read too many headlines about the US blowing the living shit out
of a supply convoy, or taking posession of large cache's of weapons, etc.

Maybe more emphasis on penetrating terrorist logistics and less emphasis
on patroling around giving aide would prove more effective....

[black01gt]

Maybe more emphasis on penetrating terrorist logistics and less emphasis
on patroling around giving aide would prove more effective....
Great idea!!! Like at Tora Bora. Now if ScottJ can think of that, then why can't.... Oh yeah, there's the war profiteering thing. Can't deprive Super CEO Cheney of his purpose in life now can we?

[99SVTour]

Hmmm...I always heard that God helps those who help themselves.

Start a bonfire in your living room and see what the end result is... (God shakes his head in amazement :confused: )

well it's not as simple as I put it, we do have physical control of our own actions, but it seems like, to me, we are continually inching towards a greater conflict regardless of what decisions we make.

[black01gt]

well it's not as simple as I put it, we do have physical control of our own actions, but it seems like, to me, we are continually inching towards a greater conflict regardless of what decisions we make.
I think it could be greatly simplified. Bring back, or find some damned intelligence, and the next time they are having a "terrorist conference" or "gaduation ceremony" take them motherfuckers out along with a mountain or two and we're well on our way to teaching them some manners and how to play well with others. Like in Kindergarten class.

"You must weed your garden." Chance (Peter Sellers) in Being There.

Maybe when we get a President.

[White trash wagon]

well it's not as simple as I put it, we do have physical control of our own actions, but it seems like, to me, we are continually inching towards a greater conflict regardless of what decisions we make.

Possible, but the situation can be avoided. What if the US of A could suck it, and develop our own oil fields, develop alternate fuels (be they ethanol or hydrogen), and leave the Arabs with all thier oil?

When the Arabs can only sell to the Russians & Chinese.....they can deal with the problems. Brazil did this 30 years ago, because they didn't want to be held hostage by OPEC.

I view this as better than a possible nuclear conflict.

Scott

[AL P]

Possible, but the situation can be avoided. What if the US of A could suck it, and develop our own oil fields, develop alternate fuels (be they ethanol or hydrogen), and leave the Arabs with all thier oil?


Good luck getting the environmentalist assholes to agree to that. They won't agree to drilling anywhere but they'll be the first to cry about some big oil price fixing conspiracy.

[Casper]

The problem is this country, not others. If we truly had a nationalist imperialist bent we would control the world and prosper at the expense of others, reaching the stars and exploiting them too, like americans are supposed to. What we have is a superstitious bunch of dogooder nannys who won't fucking do it my way. Dumbasses :mad:

:p

[AL P]

The problem is this country, not others. If we truly had a nationalist imperialist bent we would control the world and prosper at the expense of others, reaching the stars and exploiting them too, like americans are supposed to. What we have is a superstitious bunch of dogooder nannys who won't fucking do it my way. Dumbasses :mad:

:p

I'm ready to do things your way. We can start the beheadings at 6pm tonight.

[32VfromHell]

Casper, i wouldnt mind investing money into exploiting the asteroid belt. Some of the 'roids there are like pure copper or nickel. Some of the estimated worth of asteroids out there are in the trillions!

[99SVTour]

Casper, i wouldnt mind investing money into exploiting the asteroid belt. Some of the 'roids there are like pure copper or nickel. Some of the estimated worth of asteroids out there are in the trillions!


shut up bitch, you're a fucking 'roid!!!!!1111

[black01gt]

Good luck getting the environmentalist assholes to agree to that. They won't agree to drilling anywhere but they'll be the first to cry about some big oil price fixing conspiracy.
Have you noticed the city parks, neighborhoods, or DWF Airport recently? Doesn't look like they're getting too much resistance to me.

[line-em-up]

What do you expect? We've lost the idea that war should be as physically uncomfortable and as horrible as possible for the enemy. It should be so terrible that they beg us to stop. Not anymore though, we have the new war where we give the enemy food and medical aid! And balloons, Hooray!

In the crusades if a peasant from a village killed a knight, his order might slaughter everyone in the whole town. While I don't think you have to be that extreme, you could apply that same sort of methodical thinking to the current war. What if we destroyed every mosque within a 10 mile radius of the spot of any american casualty?

But I digress, we have no stomach for that even though the war would probably be over in a matter of weeks. How can you expect to win when you restrain your men in the field with politicially correct horseshit?

As the saying goes, All is fair in love and war.