Fat Loss Vs. Weight Loss

[GREENMAN]

I have been trying to work out as often as possible, but I seem to stay at 215 or so. I only work out 3 times a week, mainly 20 minutes of cardio and 45 minutes of generic weights. I want to get rid of the excess fat but don't want to go below 200. Should I be doing more cardio to lose the fat first then try to gain muscle and get back to 200, or should I do harder weights and hope that the fat will get burned up? My diet is consistent, nothing exceptional, but I don't eat a lot of junk food. I'm 6' I know that If I do cardio only, I'll drop to 180-190 but I want to stay at 200(for those who might ask, I look scrawny at 185).
M

[The Raven]

First off, your diet is the key to succesfull fat loss, ESECIALLY when trying to preserve lean mass. You've gotta count your calories and staty away from saturated fats and simple carbs, unless you're like 01WC and run 10 miles a day.

Secondly, I understand your desire to stay above 200lbs, but be realistic. Either you have enough lean mass to be lean at 200lbs or you don't. Concentrate on getting rid of the fat, and where you end up is where you end up. If that means you have to drop to 190lbs so be it, then you can start bulking up to get back up to 200lbs. If you get too fixated on that 200lbs you may not stick to your diet like you should, and you'll end up not losing a whole lot of fat, and you won't be packing on muscle either.

[GREENMAN]

Controlling my diet is the hardest part. I have 2 jobs, but I guess if I really want to lose fat there really is no excuse. I have been working out at 10:30 at night, I think I might try to change that to 5 in the a.m.
M

[0 GT 2]

If that means you have to drop to 190lbs so be it, then you can start bulking up to get back up to 200lbs. If you get too fixated on that 200lbs you may not stick to your diet like you should, and you'll end up not losing a whole lot of fat, and you won't be packing on muscle either.


isn't it easier to turn fat into muscle rather than nothing into muscle?

[ruffdaddy]

isn't it easier to turn fat into muscle rather than nothing into muscle?

heh...fat doesn't necessarily "turn into" muscle. And you're turning what you eat into muscle on the most simple terms.

How tall are you btw?

[The Raven]

isn't it easier to turn fat into muscle rather than nothing into muscle?

Muscle is made with lean protein, not fat. People tend to put on fat when bulking because they slack on their diet some, but it doesn't necessarily serve any purpose in the muscle bulding process, except maybe that you have a little more energy to break your muscles down in the gym. It is possible to add lean mass without adding fat, as it is also possible to burn fat without losing muscle, it's all about having a strict well thought out diet and exercise routine and a good dose of patience.

[poopnut2]

sandpaper that shit off

[OC]

Like The Raven said clean up your diet and watch those calories, also increase your cardio.

I did the same thing going from 225 to 185 while doing the job full time and school 3/4 time you just have to develop a schedule.

I prepared all of my meals for the week on Sunday and put them in containers, then I just had to stick to my gym time with a minimum of 30 minutes cardio each time I went to the gym.

Oh yeah and I had to give up those empty calories so I quit drinking.... :eek:

[GREENMAN]

Like The Raven said clean up your diet and watch those calories, also increase your cardio.

I did the same thing going from 225 to 185 while doing the job full time and school 3/4 time you just have to develop a schedule.

I prepared all of my meals for the week on Sunday and put them in containers, then I just had to stick to my gym time with a minimum of 30 minutes cardio each time I went to the gym.

Oh yeah and I had to give up those empty calories so I quit drinking.... :eek:

I"m not much of a drinker, so I should be ok(1 or 2 a month as of late). I keep hearing people swear by the strict meal portions, I might give that a try to get to where I want to be, it just doesn't seem like the lifestyle I want to live, or am I mistaken to think that the people who are on these strcit diets never go out to eat or have some of mom's home cookin'?
M

[01WhiteCobra]

Oh yeah and I had to give up those empty calories so I quit drinking.... :eek:

Nah...

Just run,bike and swim 15 hours a week. You can drink all you want.

At least that is what works for me.

Actually training 15 hours a week is a great deterrent to drinking. Not enough time.

[The Raven]

I"m not much of a drinker, so I should be ok(1 or 2 a month as of late). I keep hearing people swear by the strict meal portions, I might give that a try to get to where I want to be, it just doesn't seem like the lifestyle I want to live, or am I mistaken to think that the people who are on these strcit diets never go out to eat or have some of mom's home cookin'?
M


Super strict dieting is for people trying to get into single digit bodyfat for contest prep. It's realatively easy to maintain 10% by eating well most of the week, and you can sdtill have a good cheat meal or two without doing too much damage. It may be cliche, but you truly are what you eat. If you eat crap all the time you'll look like crap all the time. Conversely, if you eat healthy for the most part, your body will reflect that.

[GREENMAN]

Well, I am going to try preparing balanced meals to see what it will do for me.
M

[wesman]

The diet thing is the key, as well as cardio. You should switch it up to have 30-40 minutes of cardio to 20-25 minutes of weight training.


You never mentioned how tall you were. Do you look scrwany at 185-190 because you're used to seeing yourself at 220, or is it because you're actually scrawny at that weight because of your height (6'3+)

--wes

[GREENMAN]

I did post up height, I"m 6', I say I'm scrawny at that weight because that the weight that I used to be at, I like the way I look now, but I want to be cut and not so fat.
M

[0 GT 2]

Muscle is made with lean protein, not fat. People tend to put on fat when bulking because they slack on their diet some, but it doesn't necessarily serve any purpose in the muscle bulding process, except maybe that you have a little more energy to break your muscles down in the gym. It is possible to add lean mass without adding fat, as it is also possible to burn fat without losing muscle, it's all about having a strict well thought out diet and exercise routine and a good dose of patience.

i guess i worded that wrong. with a good diet wouldnt it be easier to use the fat as a fuel rather than lose it then go on and put the weight back on?

[BMCSean]

When you do your cardio you need to remember that you have a peak heartrate for fat burning, which is lower than your heartrate for cardio training. This makes a huge difference in shedding off those pounds. Train to burn fat and not so much for cardio. Lifting helps bump up your metabolism, it burns fat even after you are done working out.

[The Raven]

i guess i worded that wrong. with a good diet wouldnt it be easier to use the fat as a fuel rather than lose it then go on and put the weight back on?

It depends on your more immediate goals. You can lose fat without losing muscle, and you can gain muscle without getting fat, it just takes a little patience and a solid diet. I personally feel better with less fat, so I'd rather be lean while trying to bulk up, than to be a little more mucular fat ass trying to trim down.

[GREENMAN]

Damn it! Eating healthy sucks, I had some oatmeal to start the day and for lunch a cup of rice and some baked chicken breast. I'm starving..lol I have been drinking a water and snacking on cheerios. I think I am going to pick up a subway sammich before my next job. I am going to work out tonight after a 2 week hiatus, I know I am going to feel like shit tomorrow. What do you guys snack on to curve the appetite?
M

[exlude]

Stuff high in fiber will help fill you up.

[01WhiteCobra]

Stuff high in fiber will help fill you up.


Fiber is the shit.

Literally.

[GREENMAN]

Bowl of Mini-wheats this morning FTW!

[OC]

Damn it! Eating healthy sucks, I had some oatmeal to start the day and for lunch a cup of rice and some baked chicken breast. I'm starving..lol I have been drinking a water and snacking on cheerios. I think I am going to pick up a subway sammich before my next job. I am going to work out tonight after a 2 week hiatus, I know I am going to feel like shit tomorrow. What do you guys snack on to curve the appetite?
M


Salads, low in calories..........I have also done them with Salsa so damn near no calories. The dressing is where most of the calories come from.

You have to get used to it....the first few weeks it feels like somebody cut your throat :eek:

Oh yeah drink tons of water!

[OC]

Nah...

Just run,bike and swim 15 hours a week. You can drink all you want.

At least that is what works for me.

Actually training 15 hours a week is a great deterrent to drinking. Not enough time.

I don't have 15 hours, so I will go ahead and skip the beers ;)

About 3 hours on the Stairmaster and water are going to have to do it for awhile.

[01WhiteCobra]

I don't have 15 hours, so I will go ahead and skip the beers ;)

About 3 hours on the Stairmaster and water are going to have to do it for awhile.

Most of it is done on the weekends (long bike, long run for about 6-7 hours total with an 90 minutes of swimming thrown in) Typically always done by 11am-noon.

During the week I'm up at 4:30am 3 morning a week to get in the training prior to 9am. The other two days I slack. Somedays I'll run with my 11 year old (budding triathlete)

Sort of the agreement I have with the family. Mornings are my time, afternoons and evenings are their time.

[slow06]

Most of it is done on the weekends (long bike, long run for about 6-7 hours total with an 90 minutes of swimming thrown in) Typically always done by 11am-noon.

During the week I'm up at 4:30am 3 morning a week to get in the training prior to 9am. The other two days I slack. Somedays I'll run with my 11 year old (budding triathlete)

Sort of the agreement I have with the family. Mornings are my time, afternoons and evenings are their time.

Damn, what time do you go to bed at night? Id like to work out in the mornings but its not so much an option when I go to bed at 1 or 2 every night.

Good thread though, I've been trying to get rid of fat lately. Hardest part is my diet. No Burgers and fries for a month(my favorite food). Its been killing me.

[D-Money2003]

if you run with a garbage bag on your body are you losing fat or are you just losing water weight?

[wesman]

if you run with a garbage bag on your body are you losing fat or are you just losing water weight?


Mostly water weight

--wes

[Big Studly]

Damn it! Eating healthy sucks, I had some oatmeal to start the day and for lunch a cup of rice and some baked chicken breast. I'm starving..lol I have been drinking a water and snacking on cheerios. I think I am going to pick up a subway sammich before my next job. I am going to work out tonight after a 2 week hiatus, I know I am going to feel like shit tomorrow. What do you guys snack on to curve the appetite?
M

you would be suprised by how much you can eat....I am fixing to have a bowl of oatmean (1/2 cup) plain and some fat free yogurt...2nd meal of the day. My first meal was two pieces of whole grain toast with peanut butter and 4 pieces of turkey sausage. I am not even hungry right now, but I am trying to follow this program I got from "Mens health". I am not following it totally right now as I don't have the right food, but I am mixing up some stuff from each meal. I feel I am still eating less than the meal recommends.

As far as maximum heart rate for burning fat, I honestly never knew that, and that could explain why I always hit a wall in losing weight and get frustrated....anyone know where to find, or how to calculate that heart rate? When I ride the bike I usually get my hear rate up to 160 or so, lately I have been keeping it around 140-145, but I would like to know what it should be...might make my workouts more tolerable.

[01WhiteCobra]

As far as maximum heart rate for burning fat, I honestly never knew that, and that could explain why I always hit a wall in losing weight and get frustrated....anyone know where to find, or how to calculate that heart rate? When I ride the bike I usually get my hear rate up to 160 or so, lately I have been keeping it around 140-145, but I would like to know what it should be...might make my workouts more tolerable.

http://www.stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml

There are a few different ways to calculate it. But the best way it through testing.

For example, using those formulas my max is 177-183 at the age of 43. I can tell you through testing I'm at 203 (10 minute quick test wearing heart monitor where the treadmill is increased every minute until exhaustion)

So, use it as a guideline. If I used those forumlas I'd be way under my Zone 1, Zone 2, Zone 3, Zone 4, Zone 5.

Basically, if you are riding the bike or running you should be able to carry on a conversation without feeling out of breath.

I don't wear a heart rate monitor all the time but I use RPE (rating of preceived exertion) using the modified Borg Scale (1-10 instead of 6-20). For "light exercise" which would also be the "fat burning" RPE I try to keep it in RPE 2 and 3.

http://ahsmail.uwaterloo.ca/kin356/rpe/rpe/The%20Borg%20CR10%20Scale.html#Top_page_Borg_RPE_S cale

Also realize your maximum heart rate is going to be different depending on the activity. My max on the bike is a little under my max on the run.

[Big Studly]

http://www.stevenscreek.com/goodies/hr.shtml

There are a few different ways to calculate it. But the best way it through testing.

For example, using those formulas my max is 177-183 at the age of 43. I can tell you through testing I'm at 203 (10 minute quick test wearing heart monitor where the treadmill is increased every minute until exhaustion)

So, use it as a guideline. If I used those forumlas I'd be way under my Zone 1, Zone 2, Zone 3, Zone 4, Zone 5.

Basically, if you are riding the bike or running you should be able to carry on a conversation without feeling out of breath.

I don't wear a heart rate monitor all the time but I use RPE (rating of preceived exertion) using the modified Borg Scale (1-10 instead of 6-20). For "light exercise" which would also be the "fat burning" RPE I try to keep it in RPE 2 and 3.

http://ahsmail.uwaterloo.ca/kin356/rpe/rpe/The%20Borg%20CR10%20Scale.html#Top_page_Borg_RPE_S cale

Also realize your maximum heart rate is going to be different depending on the activity. My max on the bike is a little under my max on the run.

Don't understand the RPE scale...I usually go off the hear rate monitor on the bike, I know it isn't 100% accurate, but since I am trying to fall within a range, if the monitor is +-10% I think I am good......said my max was 190. I read to keep it around 70%-75% of max for fat burning...does that sound right? That would make my range about 135-145

[BMCSean]

70-75 is a good range. it really works a lot better to loose fat this way, especially since you should be able to maintain this pace for longer periods of time thus burning more calories.

[01WhiteCobra]

Don't understand the RPE scale...I usually go off the hear rate monitor on the bike, I know it isn't 100% accurate, but since I am trying to fall within a range, if the monitor is +-10% I think I am good......said my max was 190. I read to keep it around 70%-75% of max for fat burning...does that sound right? That would make my range about 135-145

I don't train for fat loss. I train to run triathlons (long course, 1/2 ironman or better). During my season I have distinct periods and the training is modified to fit those periods. For example, prep phase is getting my body use to long hours of training, base periods (sometimes 2-3 a year) are for building my endurance, the peak period is for refining my speed and race is prepartion for my "A" race. The race period focuses more on transitions and cutting down the hours so I peak at the right moment.

I don't buy into the whole "Fat Loss Zone" for one simple reason. The more intense your activity the higher number of absolute calories you will burn. I will say you do burn more calories of fat at low intensity.

But, losing weight equals buring the most amount of calories possible. Intense exercise burns more calories than less intensive exercise. The hard part is keeping the intensity high throughout the exercise.

If you have an hour to ride the bike it will always be better to ride it as hard as possible. You will burn more calories and burn them longer under intense exercise. Your body goes through hormonal changes at high-level intensity that it doesn't go through at lower intensity and your body burns more calories as a result.

Again, the problem is keeping up the intesity for any period of time.

So if you have an hour to ride on the bike, bust your ass. And read my post exercise recovery thread to make sure you are properly feeding your body afterwards.

Bottom line, as far as I am concerned, while you burn more fat calories as a percentage in the "zone" you burn less total total calories. I'd also say you probably burn as many fat calories at higher intensity as at lower intensity. The benefit to higher intensity is you burn calories longer after exercise.

[Big Studly]

I don't train for fat loss. I train to run triathlons (long course, 1/2 ironman or better). During my season I have distinct periods and the training is modified to fit those periods. For example, prep phase is getting my body use to long hours of training, base periods (sometimes 2-3 a year) are for building my endurance, the peak period is for refining my speed and race is prepartion for my "A" race. The race period focuses more on transitions and cutting down the hours so I peak at the right moment.

I don't buy into the whole "Fat Loss Zone" for one simple reason. The more intense your activity the higher number of absolute calories you will burn. I will say you do burn more calories of fat at low intensity.

But, losing weight equals buring the most amount of calories possible. Intense exercise burns more calories than less intensive exercise. The hard part is keeping the intensity high throughout the exercise.

If you have an hour to ride the bike it will always be better to ride it as hard as possible. You will burn more calories and burn them longer under intense exercise. Your body goes through hormonal changes at high-level intensity that it doesn't go through at lower intensity and your body burns more calories as a result.

Again, the problem is keeping up the intesity for any period of time.

So if you have an hour to ride on the bike, bust your ass. And read my post exercise recovery thread to make sure you are properly feeding your body afterwards.

Bottom line, as far as I am concerned, while you burn more fat calories as a percentage in the "zone" you burn less total total calories. I'd also say you probably burn as many fat calories at higher intensity as at lower intensity. The benefit to higher intensity is you burn calories longer after exercise.

makes sense and that is how I always looked at it, but after reading up on some stuff, other seem to say otherwise. I will say this, I ususally go as hard and long as I can when I work out...and I always hit a wall and get burned out. I am gonna try the "target zone" thing and see what happens. My guess is one of two things is going to happen..1) none or 2) I will lose weight, but it will mainly be because I just really started getting strict on my diet vs. previous times I have tried to lose weight.....I guess one good thing is I won't be burned out and not go to the gym....

[01WhiteCobra]

makes sense and that is how I always looked at it, but after reading up on some stuff, other seem to say otherwise. I will say this, I ususally go as hard and long as I can when I work out...and I always hit a wall and get burned out. I am gonna try the "target zone" thing and see what happens. My guess is one of two things is going to happen..1) none or 2) I will lose weight, but it will mainly be because I just really started getting strict on my diet vs. previous times I have tried to lose weight.....I guess one good thing is I won't be burned out and not go to the gym....

One thing you might be experiencing is a plateau.

Your body has adjusted to your routine and has become more efficient in peforming the routine.

For example, a all-american swimmer will burn less calories swimming a mile that a person that just learned to swim last year. Same goes with running or biking. Lance Armstrong burns less calories riding 100 miles that I would running 100 miles.

When I get in a rut in training (again I don't train for weight loss but for racing) I'll take a week and either lay off or "rev it up" depending on how I feel. If I'm feeling a little burnt out I'll take the week off. If I feel ok but I'm not experiencing the gains I think I should I'll add 20-25% more hours to training that week.

Wakes the body up or lets it recover and lets it move on.

[Big Studly]

One thing you might be experiencing is a plateau.

Your body has adjusted to your routine and has become more efficient in peforming the routine.

For example, a all-american swimmer will burn less calories swimming a mile that a person that just learned to swim last year. Same goes with running or biking. Lance Armstrong burns less calories riding 100 miles that I would running 100 miles.

When I get in a rut in training (again I don't train for weight loss but for racing) I'll take a week and either lay off or "rev it up" depending on how I feel. If I'm feeling a little burnt out I'll take the week off. If I feel ok but I'm not experiencing the gains I think I should I'll add 20-25% more hours to training that week.

Wakes the body up or lets it recover and lets it move on.

so how long does a platuea last? Until you change something up? I did change my routine a few weeks ago, but still haven't seen any change...now, I could be doing the old, adding muscle and losing fat, but my clothes don't seem to fit any different. I am really only trying to eliminate fat in one area...if I did that, I wouldn't be skinny, but I would at least be happier...unfortunately I have never been able to lose the fat in this area..I have had it since I was a kid...maybe I am expecting unrealistic results also.