Do we really need a big ass wall around our borders?

[DORAN]

-What is the purpose of our government if not to protect the liberty of the citizens of the U.S.?

-If we have no borders, then we have no country. Who protects the liberty of the territorial subjects (since we would no longer be "citizens") ? The U.N.?

-The German's have a term, "gesellschaft", which means (roughly) more people=more crime=more laws=bigger government=less liberty. Why would libertarians choose to allow a few individuals to have a little more money if it means the loss of liberty to society as a whole?

-There is an inverse relationship between population size and quality of life. Is quality of life important to libertarians?

-As long as the U.S. is a Third World-despot safety valve, there is little reason for those regimes to reform and be held accountable by the people who live in those countries. Is holding one's government accountable important to libertarians?

And so on. I probably asked them a dozen more questions in the same vein and got nothing (literally) in return. I really expected a discussion, especially from Cato, but all I got was ... well, nothing. I left the site knowing that:

A) these were questions they'd rather not answer, so they didn't, and

B) these were questions they'd never been asked, and were caught unprepared.


My response:

I'll chime in and address a couple of your points.

1. With regard to the more population = less quality of life: are you saying that 20,000 years ago when the population was likely a thousandth the size it is today, the quality of life was better? An extreme example, to be sure, but you could make the same argument going back a mere 100 years or even 50 and comparing quality of life then to today. How do you reconcile these two? As for the gesellschaft idea, I can't argue with more people = more crime but only in the sense that larger populations will have more crimes in total take place. I don't think it follows that more people = more crimes per capita. If this was the case, we would have likely seen some equillibrium arise in population as it relates to crime. I don't think that has yet happened - even in dense cities like New York or Hong Kong.

2. To your last point about the U.S. being a Third-World safety valve: Why do you think East Germany built the Berlin Wall? Hint: it wasn't to keep others out. Your point here is exactly backwards. Despotic governments can only exist by retaining those they steal from. They are parasites on the production of society. Thus, the more parasitic the government, the more likely it is to kill its host organism (the people). Ease of transferability of individuals across borders necessarily stresses governments to be better stewards of their citizens. There's a real inverse relationship here, which has been illustrated over and over again throughout the course of history.

3. Per your argument about no borders = no country, I would simply ask" why do you need borders for a country? Borders imply property ownership. If I own land inside the borders of the U.S., is that land by default owned by the U.S. government? Even with imminent domain, the government can't just up and take your land for no reason. Thus, borders from a property as land standpoint with regards to a "country" are somewhat meaningless. The country of the United States protects all rights when possible (as Walter said). Because protection is not free, it is first given to taxpayers because they most obviously pay for it (I'm simplifying here, but the illustration still holds). However, if you were to explain what the U.S.A. was to someone else and you simply drew some lines on a map, that would be a fairly meaningless explanation.

4. "What is the purpose of our government if not to protect the liberty of the citizens of the U.S.?"

What about the right of U.S. citizens to engage in free trade with whoever they damn well please? What about the right to sell your home to anyone who is willing to buy it? The type of protection you're demanding isn't for all of the citizens of the U.S.; it is merely for a minority group who is fighting a battle they will never win instead of embracing change from which tehy could actually benefit. We all benefit from lower prices resultant from American businesses using the cheapest labor possible. We all benefit from having more buyers of our products. Trying to protect Americans from such cheap labor as well as additional consumers, additional entrepreneurial spirit, etc. will only result in more jobs going overseas. Guess what happens then? Everyone suffers - including the minority who wanted the protectionist measures in the first place. The U.S. government is supposed to protect a U.S. citizen's liberties: this necessarily requires protecting our choice to engage in trade with whoever we please.

Ah well, I ended up hitting all the points to some effect. I'm sure you won't be satisfied with my responses, but that's okay by me. Now, instead of throwing out my arguments with a bunch of patronizing one-liners or simply disregarding them by saying "whatever," how about taking them on with real counterpoints like you demanded from Cato. Did it ever cross your mind that no one responded to you there because they didn't deem your arguments worth the effort?

[slow99]

We need a wall around this forum to keep out forwarded emails.

[Jester]

We need a wall because the fucking illegals do not understand that they are not wanted or needed. I do not want me taxes to go to paying for their medical bills. I want my taxes to go to keeping scum out of the country.
I don't want to embrace change when the only change is that know I have an option to press one for English and two for Spanish. FUCK THAT SHIT!
They are a drain on the economy and our society and do not want to be a part of this country...........they just want to use this country.

Yes, there are exceptions and a lot of them want a better life.........but they need to go about becoming a citizen the legal way. If putting a wall up to keep them out is the way to deal with it, I am for it. I will happily buy a shitload of bricks to help build this wall.

[grove rat]

they will find a way

[Jester]

they will find a way
Not if we have snipers positioned every 1000 yards down the wall with a license to pop any and all that come with 100 yards of the wall. :D

[Jester]

Here is a good plan if we do not build a wall. Fine the ever loving shit out of any and all companys that hire illegal aliens.

[DORAN]

Do you think that most people have a problem with hispanics here because of the language barrier or is it truley just because they are comeing here and using the american system or both. I was wondering about that because you dont see ass much attention on abuse of wellfare/disabilities. Does anyone know how hard it is to actually become a American citizen.

[Jester]

Do you think that most people have a problem with hispanics here because of the language barrier or is it truley just because they are comeing here and using the american system or both. I was wondering about that because you dont see ass much attention on abuse of wellfare/disabilities. Does anyone know how hard it is to actually become a American citizen.
I think it is a huge combination of it all. The problem is a foreigner coming to the country and wanting it to change to them................that is bullshit.
When I go to Japan I do not expect the Japs to change their society to adapt to me, I do not expect their citizens to pay for my hospital bills, I do not expect anything from them.

[Paladin]

Does anyone know how hard it is to actually become a American citizen.

All 4 of my grandparents were able to do it, so why can't they?

[junior]

america is like a pussy just waiting to get fucked :cool:

[exlude]

I don't think we need a wall. I think it's a waste of cash money. What we do need is to get tougher/scarier in the enforcement areas.

[AL P]

1. Higher populations mean higher density in urban areas, thus a greater chance of being affected by crime even with the same per capita rate. It also means larger government. When the people moving here are third world scumbags it also increases the per capita rate.

2. This ignores the idea that we don't want to be the safety valve for the world. Any given safety valve can only handle so much flow and we are operating at maximum.

3. This ignores the fact that borders = security. Property ownership isn't important. The idea of the U.S.A. is an abstract idea so just drawing lines doesn't convey the point.

4. U.S. citizens are not guaranteed the right of free trade. Not only that but one of the ideas behind the federal government was to regulate international and state to state commerce so I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

Overall I'm amused at the double standards that a lot of this seems to promote. Go to Mexico and live as an illegal and you'll be in prison. Sell your house to "whoever you damn well please" and you can't sell it to a foreigner. In short, if the playing field should be leveled a good place to start the leveling would be in Mexico. And that's what all these illegal aliens should be doing, fixing Mexico.

[pony7up]

We need a wall because the fucking illegals do not understand that they are not wanted or needed. I do not want me taxes to go to paying for their medical bills. I want my taxes to go to keeping scum out of the country.
I don't want to embrace change when the only change is that know I have an option to press one for English and two for Spanish. FUCK THAT SHIT!
They are a drain on the economy and our society and do not want to be a part of this country...........they just want to use this country.

Yes, there are exceptions and a lot of them want a better life.........but they need to go about becoming a citizen the legal way. If putting a wall up to keep them out is the way to deal with it, I am for it. I will happily buy a shitload of bricks to help build this wall.
Hold the fuck up ! Im an american citizen born and raised here in TEXAS ! Im hispanic and also agree that we should try some method of keeping out illegals. But damn ! Its not because I hate illegals its because I think there is a legal way of going about it. I have tons of mexican friends and know them personally and to be honest with you al this talk about the "wetbacks" stealing our jobs is bullshit !! How many fuckin mexicans you know out there stealing your fucking desk jobs ! They come here for one damn reason and thats to start and help out their families. I know ! they dont come here to steal and pillage everything. These guys are out there doing the jobs that alot of us dont want to do , And are practically working for shit ! They make their money the honest way and thats more than I can say for some people.


Not all mexicans or illegals are good either, you have your dipshits here and there, But damn man ! If they wanna come over, they are gonna come over thats a fact !

Build a wall "GREAT" !!! -

They will just go under it !

[exlude]

Quad post? Nice.

[pony7up]

Quad post? Nice.
I corrected it ! sorry !

[AL P]

Hold the fuck up ! Im an american citizen born and raised here in TEXAS ! Im hispanic and also agree that we should try some method of keeping out illegals. But damn ! Its not because I hate illegals its because I think there is a legal way of going about it. I have tons of mexican friends and know them personally and to be honest with you al this talk about the "wetbacks" stealing our jobs is bullshit !! How many fuckin mexicans you know out there stealing your fucking desk jobs ! They come here for one damn reason and thats to start and help out their families. I know ! they dont come here to steal and pillage everything. These guys are out there doing the jobs that alot of us dont want to do , And are practically working for shit ! They make their money the honest way and thats more than I can say for some people.


Not all mexicans or illegals ar good either, you have your dipshits here and there, But damn man ! If they wanna come over they are gonna come over thats a fact !

Build a wall "GREAT" !!! -

They will just go under it !

They work for shit because they are illegal. And wages have been driven down by them being here.

Personally I'm of the opinion that everyone deserves minimum wage, protection of the law, etc... But I am also of the opinion that everyone should be a legal citizen. It's hard to become a citizen because we've been flooded. Most of the complaints and justifications are because of our social systems reacting to illegals being here.

And I don't hate mexicans or anything like that. This is an issue of economics.

[Jester]

Hold the fuck up ! Im an american citizen born and raised here in TEXAS ! Im hispanic and also agree that we should try some method of keeping out illegals. But damn ! Its not because I hate illegals its because I think there is a legal way of going about it. I have tons of mexican friends and know them personally and to be honest with you al this talk about the "wetbacks" stealing our jobs is bullshit !! How many fuckin mexicans you know out there stealing your fucking desk jobs ! They come here for one damn reason and thats to start and help out their families. I know ! they dont come here to steal and pillage everything. These guys are out there doing the jobs that alot of us dont want to do , And are practically working for shit ! They make their money the honest way and thats more than I can say for some people.


Not all mexicans or illegals are good either, you have your dipshits here and there, But damn man ! If they wanna come over, they are gonna come over thats a fact !

Build a wall "GREAT" !!! -

They will just go under it !
Any and all illegals are stealing out of my pocket and your's this very second. You pay your taxes, right? Well, who do you thinks pays the medical bill when Consuela pops out another kid at the local hospital.

[pony7up]

Any and all illegals are stealing out of my pocket and your's this very second. You pay your taxes, right? Well, who do you thinks pays the medical bill when Consuela pops out another kid at the local hospital.
I was kinda pissed, But I cant lie you had me rollin on the consuela part . ! (LOL)

[pony7up]

Any and all illegals are stealing out of my pocket and your's this very second. You pay your taxes, right? Well, who do you thinks pays the medical bill when Consuela pops out another kid at the local hospital.
I understand the tax thing trust me !


BUt i would rather pay taxes for people who are working and have no way of getting insurance than paying for someones lazy ass in the ghetto who doesent wanna work and is guess what ? they are -

An american citizen !

Now that pisses me off !!!:mad:

I dont support people on welfare unless they dont have a choice ! I cant stand the motherfuckers who just sit back enjoy our tax money......

[Jester]

I understand the tax thing trust me !


BUt i would rather pay taxes for people who are working and have no way of getting insurance than paying for someones lazy ass in the ghetto who doesent wanna work and is guess what ? they are -

An american citizen !

Now that pisses me off !!!:mad:

I dont support people on welfare unless they dont have a choice !I cant stand the motherfuckers who just sit back enjoy our tax money......
Agree with the welfare check. Taht shit needs to go bye bye.

Ass, gas, or grass..........nobody rides for free.

[pony7up]

Agree with the welfare check. Taht shit needs to go bye bye.

Ass, gas, or grass..........nobody rides for free.
LOL, thats what im talking about :D

[bcoop]

I get so worked up over this issue. The fact that our President lacks the fucking cojones to do anything about it REALLY pisses me off more. I've come to the realization that nothing is going to happen. We will continue to let them live here, spend our tax money, work tax free, etc. No sense in trying to fight the issue. This weekend, I finally gave in. I did my part to support illegal immigration, and went and hired some border jumpers to help me get some shit done around the house. Your whole "they work for shit (pay)" argument is a fucking crock of shit. These assholes wouldn't work for less than $9/hour (they started out wanting $11) and lunch. Keep in mind, this is cash money, paid same day, no taxes taken out. That's quite a bit more than minimum wage. I know CITIZENS that make less. So you can take that argument and shove it up your ass. It's null and void. Sure, they might be jobs we don't want to do (in some cases), but they aren't working for shit. They're making a considerable amount more per hour than min. wage.

[Casper]

Wouldn't it be more cost effective to take the mexican government down and rebuild democracy for the oppressed?

[AL P]

Wouldn't it be more cost effective to take the mexican government down and rebuild democracy for the oppressed?

Imperialist bastard!!!

[prochargedpony]

Wouldn't it be more cost effective to take the mexican government down and rebuild democracy for the oppressed?



There is no gain for the government, mexico has nothing we want.


There are so many jobs, that illegals are taking aside from construction, have you ever been to IHOP, 90% of the chinese restaurants, country style kitchens etc. Those were actually once proud jobs for americans. The fact they don't practice any kind of birth control or take responsibilty for their actions, like driving with no insurance and get into an accident and just say FUCK YOU. 90% of the animosity(sp) americans have for them, is they expect us to learn their language here in america, don't pay taxes but use our resources that OUR taxes pay for.

[Casper]

Imperialist bastard!!!

Liberal pussy!

[jakester]

I've often asked myself if the wall deal is the best way to go, then I think about Nazi Germany. The French and English let Nazi's move in on other countries and they just watched them do it illegally. First it was one country, then 3, and then they were at there front porch breaking down the door into there country. My point is if you don't stop it the first time, it's your mistake for just watching it happen.

Cut off the head and take care of the tail...that's how I roll.

[Venom]

How long did the berlin wall last? We should build a huge reinforced concrete wall with snipers every 700 yards and a roving patrol. Give the soldiers who work thie wall shoot to kill authority and we will have no problems.

We should also institute some capital punishment for anyone caught breakign the law in this country. If you steal you get your fucking hand cut off. Let see how many people steal. If you kill someone you ass get killed within a year.

Is this barbaric? Yes. Will it work? Yes. Will a president and congress ever come along to make it happen? No.

[Trip McNeely]

Yes. With lots of razor wire, minefields and a moat with pirranahs.

[99SVTour]

This is why all those ignorant motherfuckers were running around with Mexican flags rather than American flags during their protests up until LULAC told them that their real sentiment must be hidden or it would hurt their cause.

<embed src="http://vidmax.com/img/vidmax_player.swf" width="450" height="447" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" flashvars="xml=http://vidmax.com/index.php/videos/playlist/&id=879&autoPlay=true&bg=http://vidmax.com/img/back.jpg" scale="showall" name="index" />

edit: if you quote this cut out the embedded player because it starts on its own and will severely bog down the page loading

[prochargedpony]

This is why all those ignorant motherfuckers were running around with Mexican flags rather than American flags during their protests up until LULAC told them that their real sentiment must be hidden or it would hurt their cause.

<embed src="http://vidmax.com/img/vidmax_player.swf" width="450" height="447" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" flashvars="xml=http://vidmax.com/index.php/videos/playlist/&id=879&autoPlay=true&bg=http://vidmax.com/img/back.jpg" scale="showall" name="index" />


It is funny that the protesters were calling americans nazi's, if you want us to become nazi's no fucking problems, I am sure we can do away with a few golf coarses around the states and put up some very very comfortable ;), get-away camps for them.

[Trip McNeely]

How dare they use a Prodigy song for their BS cause! :mad: BURN IN HELL MOTHERFUCKS!!!@!#!@$

[AL P]

Hooray socialism and leftist idiots.

[bucky]

Nothing will be done about the border problems by any politicians until terrorists use it to their advantage.Then the blame game will start.

[pony7up]

I get so worked up over this issue. The fact that our President lacks the fucking cojones to do anything about it REALLY pisses me off more. I've come to the realization that nothing is going to happen. We will continue to let them live here, spend our tax money, work tax free, etc. No sense in trying to fight the issue. This weekend, I finally gave in. I did my part to support illegal immigration, and went and hired some border jumpers to help me get some shit done around the house. Your whole "they work for shit (pay)" argument is a fucking crock of shit. These assholes wouldn't work for less than $9/hour (they started out wanting $11) and lunch. Keep in mind, this is cash money, paid same day, no taxes taken out. That's quite a bit more than minimum wage. I know CITIZENS that make less. So you can take that argument and shove it up your ass. It's null and void. Sure, they might be jobs we don't want to do (in some cases), but they aren't working for shit. They're making a considerable amount more per hour than min. wage.Its not my fault your stupid ass payed them that much !! OWNED>>>>>>>>

[pony7up]

This is why all those ignorant motherfuckers were running around with Mexican flags rather than American flags during their protests up until LULAC told them that their real sentiment must be hidden or it would hurt their cause.

<EMBED name=index pluginspage=http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer src=""http://vidmax.com/img/vidmax_player.swf width=450 height=447 type=application/x-shockwave-flash scale="showall" flashvars="xml=http://vidmax.com/index.php/videos/playlist/&id=879&autoPlay=true&bg=http://vidmax.com/img/back.jpg" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">

edit: if you quote this cut out the embedded player because it starts on its own and will severely bog down the page loading
that video is fucking annoying ! As for that shit I dont represent that ! If I were to know them I would kick their ass as well

[Mustangman_2000]

that video is fucking annoying. a mod needs to remove that asap.

and i voted yes for the wall or any kind of barrier whether it be virtual, bureaucratic, or physical.

we need tougher enforcement for laws already on the books, punish u.s. businesses financially for hiring illegals, boycott bank of america in to bankruptcy, stop allowing real estate firms sell homes to illegals, refuse to allow illegals into public school system, stop making our restaurants bi-lingual to cater to illegals, shoot the assholes that accept pesos for goods and services in this country, stop prosecuting officers for shooting mexican drug dealers, create a path to citizenship that requires learning how to read and write english, force the bastards to purchase car insurance, and shoot all of those fuck head mexican kids in colorado in the knees that raised the mexican flag at their school in protest, erect a wall over the most remote and more difficult spots for patrolmen to control, etc...

just to name a few.

[black01gt]

Since fear is the new American motivator, Mr American Businessman is going to have to be AFRAID of a large fine per wetback before we can avoid this:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/FeatMike/MeskinVictory.jpg

PS- That fucking tecno shit music or whatever is obnoxious.