Senate Reports No Link

[David]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14728447/

[White trash wagon]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14728447/

In 2 interviews yesterday, Bush acknowledged that Saddam Hussien and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. But Bush added that since Al-Qaida, and Osama Bin Laden thought Iraq was central in WOT, that was justification for the US to be there. Oh and since Hussein was a BAD dude, that was a good reason to be there too.

Scott

[Jester]

I think I remember Bush saying that we will go to war with any country that harbors terrorists. Saddam was a terrorist.
I just do not understand liberal thinking. Why is it bad that Saddam is out of power? Why is it bad that terrorists are dying by the thousands?

[White trash wagon]

I think I remember Bush saying that we will go to war with any country that harbors terrorists. Saddam was a terrorist.
I just do not understand liberal thinking. Why is it bad that Saddam is out of power? Why is it bad that terrorists are dying by the thousands?

You missed a point, if it were our mission to take all tyrants out of power, we would be invading at least 6 other nations right now.

Scott

[Jester]

You missed a point, if it were our mission to take all tyrants out of power, we would be invading at least 6 other nations right now.

Scott
We will get to them.

[David]

I think I remember Bush saying that we will go to war with any country that harbors terrorists. Saddam was a terrorist.
I just do not understand liberal thinking. Why is it bad that Saddam is out of power? Why is it bad that terrorists are dying by the thousands?
So how come we haven't invaded Pakistan as of this week? Or at least rained down some nice ordnance on them?

[Denny]

You missed a point, if it were our mission to take all tyrants out of power, we would be invading at least 6 other nations right now.

Scott
Gotta crawl before you walk... and we can't just go in and get the tyrants out and leave when the tyrant is the one running the country. If we just left, it would be even worse than before.

[Denny]

So how come we haven't invaded Pakistan as of this week? Or at least rained down some nice ordnance on them?
Because you haven't signed up yet, troop.

[Jester]

So how come we haven't invaded Pakistan as of this week? Or at least rained down some nice ordnance on them?
We do have Marines in Pakistan, so try again.

[Jester]

Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between England and America for food and war materials.


At that time the U.S. was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war.

Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on Germany, which had not yet attacked us. It was a dicey thing. We had few allies.

France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly aligned itself with its German occupiers. Germany was certainly not an ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning and controlling all of Asia. Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invading Canada and Mexico, as launching pads to get into the United States over our northern and southern borders, after they finished gaining control of Asia and Europe. America's only allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia. That was about it. All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the east, was already under the Nazi heel.

America was certainly not prepared for war. America had drastically downgraded most of its military forces after WWI and throughout the depression, so that at the outbreak of WW2, army units were training with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have real tanks. And a huge chunk of our navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.

Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England, that was actually the property of Belgium, given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact). Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day just to prove they could. Britain had already been holding out for two years in the face of staggering shipping loses and the near-decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that could be dealt with later, and first turning his attention to Russia, at a time when England was on the verge of collapse, in the late summer of 1940.

Ironically, Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years, until the U.S. got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany.

Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow alone... 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a MILLION soldiers.

Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire war effort against the Brits, then America. And the Nazis could possibly have won the war.

All of this is to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. And now, we find ourselves at another one of those key moments in history.

There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world.

The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs -- they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world. And that all who do not bow to their will of thinking should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel, and purge the world of Jews. This is their mantra.

There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and it's Reformation, but it is not known yet which will win -- the Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.

If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and Asian economies. The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis.

You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.

If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.

We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. And we can't do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle at a time and place of our choosing........in Iraq. not in New York, not in London, or Paris or Berlin, but in Iraq, where we are doing two important things.

(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.

Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians.

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad people, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.

World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and was followed by another decade of U.S. occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on their own again ... a 27 year war.

World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion dollars. WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.

The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which is roughly 2/3 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed on 9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have been unimaginably greater -- a world dominated by German and Japanese Nazism.

Americans have a short attention span, conditioned by 30 second sound bites, 60 minute TV shows, and 2 hour movies in which everything comes out okay.

The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain,and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be. The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we ignore it. If the U.S. can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never-ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless somebody prevents them.


We have four options:

1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.

2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).

3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America.

4. Or, we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will, of course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier.

If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.

The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes, culture clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.

Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.
..
Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.

The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany.

World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation, and the U.S. still has troops in Germany and Japan. World War II resulted in the death of more than 50 million people, maybe more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you accept. The U.S. has taken more than 2,000 KIA in Iraq. The U.S. took more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944, the first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism. In WWII the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four years. Most of the individual battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far.

But the stakes are at least as high ... A world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms ... or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law).

It's difficult to understand why the American left does not grasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis.

"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America, where it's safe.

Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places that really need peace activism the most?

The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy.

[Casper]

I'm all for the flypaper strategy but i really think the Iraq conflict is a sad joke and a total failure.

The whole world is now laughing at the US military because it is sending soldiers to prison for treating prisoners nicer than those prisoners treated their own fellow countrymen. And "shock and awe" was really a bunch of silly hype.

Remember when the war was rolling along and Libya straightened up and Syria pulled out of Lebanon? Well that was all lost because of pansies in Washington.

Should have nuked Bagdad, gave the Kurds an autonomous country in exchange for a sweet oil deal, told Turkey to lick our left nut and then announce tentative plans to eliminate Syria as a country. Warn Iran that the virtual wall will not be crossed, and if it is we hold them accountable and will send them a bill in hell. The first European to mouth off would be totaly annhilated and The Brits too just to remind people that they got off "easy" because we like them.

But this country is too full of liberal bushbots to make a real difference...

[David]

We do have Marines in Pakistan, so try again.
And what are they doing. Enforcing the Bush Admistration's "No Comment" effect on Pakistans move to harbor terrorists?

[Casper]

We need troops in Mexico. That is a corrupt government that is a total enemy to democracy and America.

[Denny]

And what are they doing. Enforcing the Bush Admistration's "No Comment" effect on Pakistans move to harbor terrorists?
Go find out.

[Jester]

And what are they doing. Enforcing the Bush Admistration's "No Comment" effect on Pakistans move to harbor terrorists?
There shooting the people that shoot at them first................basically what Marines have been doing forever. Would you rather have had John Kerry in office?

[Jester]

Go ifnd out.
No shit. Instead of collecting war shit, bitching about Bush, and trying to tell the government what it should be doing, how about growing a fucking set of balls and actually going and becoming a warrior.

[Casper]

No shit. Instead of collecting war shit, bitching about Bush, and trying to tell the government what it should be doing, how about growing a fucking set of balls and actually going and becoming a warrior.

What if they won't let you and will throw you in prison if you try? Does that give you a free pass?

[Jester]

What if they won't let you and will throw you in prison if you try? Does that give you a free pass?
hehehehe................not a free pass to bitch, but I will give you one on the military service. :D

[Denny]

What if they won't let you and will throw you in prison if you try? Does that give you a free pass?
At least you gave it a shot :cool:

[David]

No shit. Instead of collecting war shit, bitching about Bush, and trying to tell the government what it should be doing, how about growing a fucking set of balls and actually going and becoming a warrior.
Because what would that have to do with any of my perspective on beliefs and poilitics?

[Denny]

Because what would that have to do with any of my perspective on beliefs and poilitics?
Everything. You'd be living/fighting for what you believe, not posting on an internet board (unless you're USAF ;)). What's one soldier is like saying what's one vote.

[Jester]

Because what would that have to do with any of my perspective on beliefs and poilitics?
Because maybe you would go overseas and get a firsthad look at the people on the street that had a father that was tortured and killed by Saddam. You can ask them firsthand what they think of President Bush putting troops in their country and ridding Saddam of power. It might actually knock that college know it all slightly left leaning but not quite far enough to be a liberal mentality out of you.

[Casper]

Everything. You'd be living/fighting for what you believe, not posting on an internet board (unless you're USAF ;)).

Now that is just cold!


:D

[shrp88lx's]

Because maybe you would go overseas and get a firsthad look at the people on the street that had a father that was tortured and killed by Saddam. You can ask them firsthand what they think of President Bush putting troops in their country and ridding Saddam of power. It might actually knock that college know it all slightly left leaning but not quite far enough to be a liberal mentality out of you.TRUTH!!!

[KJ94GT]

Now that is just cold!


:D
But accurate.

[David]

Because maybe you would go overseas and get a firsthad look at the people on the street that had a father that was tortured and killed by Saddam. You can ask them firsthand what they think of President Bush putting troops in their country and ridding Saddam of power. It might actually knock that college know it all slightly left leaning but not quite far enough to be a liberal mentality out of you.
Can we not stop being the world's police and care giver?

I'm all about helping people, but when we can't even get our shit together at home. We have to go and try and put another country in order?

[Jester]

Can we not stop being the world's police and care giver?

I'm all about helping people, but when we can't even get our shit together at home. We have to go and try and put another country in order?
Our shit is together at home. I have a lovely home, my child is not in a tyrant's meat grinder just to fuck with me(Saddam did this), I have as much freedom as I need, I am able to work a decent living for decent money and am thankful for that.

There will always be assholes that take advantage of everyone else, and there will always be these faggots that want to give these cocksuckers a handout..........with your tax dollars. Homeless=these douches are homeless for a reason. They do not want to work, or pay taxes, or make a life for themselves. They would rather just mooch off fucking society, but hey, it is their freedom to do this.

The USA goes to war because it is the right thing to do. You become a soldier because you want to give others in the world the same freedoms that we take for granted.

Today, when you go to get a cheeseburger somewhere, or you go and grab a Dr Pepper, remember that there is 10 year old little girl out there in Iraq somewhere hugging one of our troops because she had never had candy and he gave her his M&Ms out of his MRE................a small taste of freedom.

[Denny]

Can we not stop being the world's police and care giver?

I'm all about helping people, but when we can't even get our shit together at home. We have to go and try and put another country in order?


You just don’t get it, do you? Once we stop “policing” the world and putting dumbasses like Saddam in check, word will get around and every ½ brained tyrant will go apeshit on anyone near them. We’ll have a lot more to worry about than feeding our fucking homeless that couldn’t/wouldn’t do shit for themselves in the first place.

And don’t start with that “Well, it’s the UN’s job” crap. We’ll have better luck using France as the mafia’s debt collector.

[Denny]

Today, when you go to get a cheeseburger somewhere, or you go and grab a Dr Pepper, remember that there is 10 year old little girl out there in Iraq somewhere hugging one of our troops because she had never had candy and he gave her his M&Ms out of his MRE................a small taste of freedom.

You ought to see them with those little Tobasco bottles!!! M&Ms are too valuable ;)

[Jester]

You ought to see them with those little Tobasco bottles!!! M&Ms are too valuable ;)
hehehehe.........you gotta love the kiddos, man.

[David]

I guess I just dont see why we can't leave and let be. :confused:
The world evolves, countries fail and othr succeed. Let them deal with it. When it becomes our time so will we.

And if we were out of the UN I'd probably have a different perspctive on things.

[Denny]

I guess I just dont see why we can't leave and let be. :confused:
The world evolves, countries fail and othr succeed. Let them deal with it. When it becomes our time so will we.

And if we were out of the UN I'd probably have a different perspctive on things.
We practically are out of the UN. We can't let shit go on because it would just keep escallating! Do you think those pieces of shit that executed the 9/11 ordeal were from here? No. That's why we need to put the rest of the world in check. Everyone thinks that the Iraq war is retalliation to 9/11. You people need to stop! This is part of a proactive approach to rid the world of terrorists. There's no order to go after them, just take care of what you can and keep going. Too bad the rest of the world is too chickenshit/lazy/blind to see that... and by rest of the world, I'm including the protesters IN OUR OWN FUCKING COUNTRY! Like Bush said, "If you're not with us, then you're against us."

Where are you?

[David]

I'm for us protecting ourselves and going after people who have caused harm to us.

Iraq had no part in 9/11, why go to war with them? They were and are the least of our worries. Are they harboring terrorists? Probably. But I'm sure so is every country in the world.

There are worse leaders in the world than Saddam. We seem to be getting along fine with all of them?

[Denny]

I'm for us protecting ourselves and going after people who have caused harm to us.

Iraq had no part in 9/11, why go to war with them? They were and are the least of our worries. Are they harboring terrorists? Probably. But I'm sure so is every country in the world.

There are worse leaders in the world than Saddam. We seem to be getting along fine with all of them?
What the fuck planet did you just come off of?

[Jester]

Once again:

(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.

Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians.

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad people, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.

[mikeb]

I'm for us protecting ourselves and going after people who have caused harm to us.

Iraq had no part in 9/11, why go to war with them? They were and are the least of our worries. Are they harboring terrorists? Probably. But I'm sure so is every country in the world.

There are worse leaders in the world than Saddam. We seem to be getting along fine with all of them?

I liken this to living in a neighborhood, and you seeing your neighbors getting ripped off and beaten/killed in broad daylight. Yet your house has not been hit, so instead of being proactive to stop the bad guys harming your helpless neighbors you wait until they attack you to do anything about it. "It's not my business" is sometimes a very narrow view point.

Bush went after Iraq because they thumbed their nose at the UN time and again. Saddam was setting an example & precident for other dictators to also simply ignore the UN. The world needed to see that the UN resolutions can have teeth. Libya and Syria saw this.

Radical islam is a rapidly spreading cancer on the world. The US seems to be the only country that is trying to do something about it. Many european countries have already knuckled under to it (france, netherlands, spain). And like the article posted in the first part of this thread - if it is not stopped then you had better brush up on your islam because it'll be coming here soon.

[ALLAN]

Saddam sure was proud of it to have no link.

http://www.dfwstangs.net/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/sadamn2.jpg

[shrp88lx's]

Once again:

(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.

Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians.

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad people, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.
You are Correct and on fire today!!!! :D

[Casper]

It is seldom ever mentioned, but consider that Saddam had no problem backing palestinian terrorists, so why would he have any problem backing al qada terrorists with money or equipment? He definitely had some nasty stuff at his disposal...

[Sgt Beavis]

We do have Marines in Pakistan, so try again.

Um.... As of right now, we don't...

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060907/NEWS06/609070462/-1/ZONES01

And we haven't since January when we accidentally bombed civilians in Pakistan. We had thought al-Qaeda members were at the location. Faulty intelligence I guess.

Anyways, after that happened, Mussarif ordered all US forces out of Pakistan and ended permission for bombing within Pakistan borders....

The article above simply affirms the policy that Pakistan already had in place.

[mardyn]

You missed a point, if it were our mission to take all tyrants out of power, we would be invading at least 6 other nations right now.

Scott

Be patient Grasshopper.... ;)

mardyn

[Sgt Beavis]

Be patient Grasshopper.... ;)

mardyn

Ya know, as much as I'd like to see GW do it, let's be realistic. It ain't gonna happen. This country isn't going after anyone else until the job in Iraq is done and that could very well be way after GW is out of office. I highly doubt the next President is going to have the ball to do that to any other country.

[Fobra]

It might actually knock that college know it all slightly left leaning but not quite far enough to be a liberal mentality out of you.
Not with some of the libs I've encountered on campus lol