Putting up a Christmas tree is wrong?

[White trash wagon]

Was reading a King James bible and found this:

Jeremiah 10
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not


Seems to say that putting up a decorated tree is for heathens.

Scott

[talisman]

And that my friends is why I've got one in my living room. :D

[poopnut2]

Twat if it's fake?

[DarkWolf]

Seems to say that putting up a decorated tree is for heathens.

Scott

Did you just completely miss all the posts I've made recently explaining how Christmas is a pagan holiday with Jesus shoehorned onto it?

Yes, Christmas trees, wreathes, candy canes, elves, reindeer, Santa, are all pagan symbols for Yule / Winter Solstice.

Should you stop using those symbols? Only if you believe the bible and don't want to go to hell...

:D

[White trash wagon]

Yes, I've seen all that, and believe Christmas, as it's observed, is a complete joke..... actually an insult to a REAL christian. But since the bible thumpers on the board like to justify all that nonsense.....I take a particular joy in using thier own text to show them how hipocritical they really are.

But I predict the backlash will be along the lines that Jeremiah 10 is Old Testament, and Galations "releases" christians from all the old laws.

So why is the old Testament even in the bible if you don't have to follow it's rules anymore?

Scott

[The Pixie]

I would like to respond to all of this by first saying that it is truly sad that people set their own standards of determining what it means to be a Christian. Granted, many "church" people have done the same thing. The bottom line is that none of us can make that determination apart from biblical truth. You mentioned something about being a "REAL" Christian, and then condemn "Bible thumpers." How can anyone know what a "Real Christian" is apart from the Bible? Secondly, you implied that those who observe Christmas are going to hell. How do you determine that? It appears that on the one hand you believe it is wrong to be a "Bible thumper," and on the other hand one will go to hell if he does not observe the laws of the Bible. Truthfully there are many who observe Christmas for the wrong reasons. But those who observe it for the right reasons do so in recognition of the fact that one day (although we don't know what day) God sent His Son into the world in order to provide for us that which we could never provide for ourselves - eternal life. The truth is, all of us are sinners and none of us deserve to go to heaven. But God in His love provided Jesus Christ as the sacrifice for our sins so that we can receive the gift of eternal life through our faith in him (See Rom. 3:23; Rom. 6:23; Rom. 5:8; Eph. 2:8-9). Hopefully, all of us as Christians will learn to "speak the truth in love" (Eph. 4:15), whether it relates to Christmas or anything else. Romans 14 teaches us that if we regard one day to be more special than another, we should do so "unto the Lord," for there will come a day when we all will have to give an account of our lives before God. When we do stand before God there will be a lot more things in our lives that will have been more important than whether or not we observed Christmas. There are more things that could be said, such as the fact that the Jeremiah 10 passage is speaking of cutting down a tree to make an idol of it and then adorning it with silver and gold and, as mentioned above, the Romans 14 passage does not actually forbid considering one day as special above another. Also, there were numerous times in the Bible that God told His people to set aside certain days as special to remember specific important things He did in the people's lives. What more important thing Has God done than to send His son into the world? In closing, I pray that all of us will be genuine and diligent in searching out God's will for our lives. God bless you all.

[poopnut2]

I would like to respond to all of this by first saying that it is truly sad that people set their own standards of determining what it means to be a Christian. Granted, many "church" people have done the same thing. The bottom line is that none of us can make that determination apart from biblical truth. You mentioned something about being a "REAL" Christian, and then condemn "Bible thumpers." How can anyone know what a "Real Christian" is apart from the Bible? Secondly, you implied that those who observe Christmas are going to hell. How do you determine that? It appears that on the one hand you believe it is wrong to be a "Bible thumper," and on the other hand one will go to hell if he does not observe the laws of the Bible. Truthfully there are many who observe Christmas for the wrong reasons. But those who observe it for the right reasons do so in recognition of the fact that one day (although we don't know what day) God sent His Son into the world in order to provide for us that which we could never provide for ourselves - eternal life. The truth is, all of us are sinners and none of us deserve to go to heaven. But God in His love provided Jesus Christ as the sacrifice for our sins so that we can receive the gift of eternal life through our faith in him (See Rom. 3:23; Rom. 6:23; Rom. 5:8; Eph. 2:8-9). Hopefully, all of us as Christians will learn to "speak the truth in love" (Eph. 4:15), whether it relates to Christmas or anything else. Romans 14 teaches us that if we regard one day to be more special than another, we should do so "unto the Lord," for there will come a day when we all will have to give an account of our lives before God. When we do stand before God there will be a lot more things in our lives that will have been more important than whether or not we observed Christmas. There are more things that could be said, such as the fact that the Jeremiah 10 passage is speaking of cutting down a tree to make an idol of it and then adorning it with silver and gold and, as mentioned above, the Romans 14 passage does not actually forbid considering one day as special above another. Also, there were numerous times in the Bible that God told His people to set aside certain days as special to remember specific important things He did in the people's lives. What more important thing Has God done than to send His son into the world? In closing, I pray that all of us will be genuine and diligent in searching out God's will for our lives. God bless you all.

I honestly think that Christians just need to get their sh!t straight. Either follow the bible or don't.

[The Pixie]

I honestly think that Christians just need to get their sh!t straight. Either follow the bible or don't.


I actually agree with you on that :p

[DarkWolf]

I actually agree with you on that :p

So make up your mind already http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Marisa]

Christmas is Pagan. End of story.

[Maverick]

LOL...and all the flap over calling the XMAS tree in Capital Hill "HOLIDAY TREE"...

[The Pixie]

So make up your mind already http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


:D I have made my mind. I do follow the Bible. I just don't see how anyone who doesn't follow the Bible can claim to be a Christian.

[DarkWolf]

:D I have made my mind. I do follow the Bible. I just don't see how anyone who doesn't follow the Bible can claim to be a Christian.

And do you put up/decorate a christmas tree? How about lights around the house? Wreathes? Mistletoe? Candy canes? Tell your kids (if you have any, and they're still young enough) about Santa, and his elves, and reindeer?

What about gift giving?

[The Pixie]

And do you put up/decorate a christmas tree? How about lights around the house? Wreathes? Mistletoe? Candy canes? Tell your kids (if you have any, and they're still young enough) about Santa, and his elves, and reindeer?

What about gift giving?

Yes, we do put a Christmas tree in our house, but we don't carve it into an idol and worship it which is what the Bible is referring to. The only one that we worship is Jesus Christ. Just out of curiousity, do you observe Christmas in any way? And I know that you probably have explained it on this board in the past, but forgive me for not taking the time to read all 7,000+ posts that you've made to find out. You've mentioned that you believe in God. What God and on what foundation? It's clear that you don't follow the Bible, so I'm curious where you get your information on the God you believe in.

[talisman]

:D I have made my mind. I do follow the Bible. I just don't see how anyone who doesn't follow the Bible can claim to be a Christian.



The Bible has so many laughable contradictions and contrivances, no one person could ever follow it.

[The Pixie]

The Bible has so many laughable contradictions and contrivances, no one person could ever follow it.

For example? You think it's a coincidence that 40+ men over a span of hundreds of years all contrived the same scheme of some God that you don't think exists?

[poopnut2]

Yes, we do put a Christmas tree in our house, but we don't carve it into an idol and worship it which is what the Bible is referring to. The only one that we worship is Jesus Christ. Just out of curiousity, do you observe Christmas in any way? And I know that you probably have explained it on this board in the past, but forgive me for not taking the time to read all 7,000+ posts that you've made to find out. You've mentioned that you believe in God. What God and on what foundation? It's clear that you don't follow the Bible, so I'm curious where you get your information on the God you believe in.

The narrowmindedness of most christians is the belief that their God, the one that created light before the stars, is what keeps them from understanding how someone can believe in a "different" God. Why does God have to look like man? What makes you think that God controls everything in the universe?

Why can't God be whatever started the universe and nothing more? The universe came from something. It very well could've just come from some huge ass space fart, and that space fart could've come from God or whatever.

All the major religions basically just give men (and women) something to strive for and provide a simple manmade explanation for life and the origin of the universe.

[poopnut2]

For example? You think it's a coincidence that 40+ men over a span of hundreds of years all contrived the same scheme of some God that you don't think exists?

40+ what? Only 40 year old men believe in God?

Considering buddhism is the largest religion in the world, not all men believe in the Christian God.

[The Pixie]

40+ what? Only 40 year old men believe in God?

Considering buddhism is the largest religion in the world, not all men believe in the Christian God.

40+ in number, not age.

And the point I was getting at is that it took 40+ (in number) men to write the Bible over a span of hundreds of years (I'm not exactly sure of the time). These men didn't all know each other, but they speak of the same God. I realize that not everyone believe in the same God, but the Bible was written about one God.

[talisman]

For example? You think it's a coincidence that 40+ men over a span of hundreds of years all contrived the same scheme of some God that you don't think exists?


So you obey word for word everything thats in the bible?

[The Pixie]

So you obey word for word everything thats in the bible?

Of course not. No one can obey every word of the Bible. The fact that no one can be perfect, that all of us are sinners, is why God sent Jesus. We are to seek to live in obedience to God, but none of us can accomplish that fully in this life. Through Jesus, when we do sin against God we can seek His forgiveness. Ultimately our primary motivation to obey Him should be love over and above fear or a desire for reward.
The bottom line is this: we all base our beliefs on various influences in our lives. Some base their beliefs on what they have learned from parents; some base their beliefs on what they have learned from society; some base their beliefs on what they have learned from reading; some base their beliefs on what they have learned from experience; and some base their beliefs on what they believe to be God's revelation of Himself. I personally base my beliefs on the Bible, which I believe is God's revelation of Himself. God has given all of us the freedom to choose to believe in Him or not. However, for those who do claim to believe in God, then there must be some source for those beliefs. If you reject the Bible as the source of those beliefs, then you must have some other source you accept as reliable. Obviously there are those who claim the Bible is not a reliable source. However, how can they be so sure that their source is superior? So, ultimately I think we can agree that we are not going to argue in a way that will cause either of us to change our position. We all will know for sure one day. I am not saying that in a judgmental way, just as a matter of fact. Let me close with this thought concerning who God is. The claim that all religions must be viewed as equally viable is not logical, for they tell us contradicting things about God. There really are only two options: either they all are wrong, or one of them is right. I choose to believe the Bible is right. If you choose to believe something different, that's your choice. I believe all of us should be totally honest in our serach for truth, even if it leads us to some uncomfortable conclusions.

[The Pixie]

I would like to make one more very important point. It always has been God's plan that we come to him by faith. Those who are expecting incontrovertable proofs cannot find their way to God in this way. However, responding to God in faith does not mean that we abandon our intellect. Once we have responded to God in faith, then we can combine our faith with intellect and it all then begins to make sense. Truthfully, many Christians have been lazy in the intellectual pursuit of defending their faith. However, even Jesus said we are to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Many of us believe that there are numerous strong evidences in support of our beliefs. However, ultimately the absolute proof will come when we all stand before God. Are you ready? :)

[DarkWolf]

Yes, we do put a Christmas tree in our house, but we don't carve it into an idol and worship it which is what the Bible is referring to. The only one that we worship is Jesus Christ. Just out of curiousity, do you observe Christmas in any way? And I know that you probably have explained it on this board in the past, but forgive me for not taking the time to read all 7,000+ posts that you've made to find out. You've mentioned that you believe in God. What God and on what foundation? It's clear that you don't follow the Bible, so I'm curious where you get your information on the God you believe in.

No, the decorating of the christmas tree is creating an idol of it. You may not bow down and worship it, but you are practicing a pagan ritual simply by putting up and decorating the tree. That is what the bible is referring to.

Yes, I observe Yule. I'd guess probably in much the same way you observe Christmas (except maybe you go to church or something on Christmas eve/day)

As far as God, it's the same God you believe in. What I don't believe in, is the religion (not just Christianity, mind you, I'm against any religion). Jesus himself was against religion... but I'd hope you already knew that.

However, ultimately the absolute proof will come when we all stand before God. Are you ready? :)

Yep.

[The Pixie]

No, the decorating of the christmas tree is creating an idol of it. You may not bow down and worship it, but you are practicing a pagan ritual simply by putting up and decorating the tree. That is what the bible is referring to.

Yes, I observe Yule. I'd guess probably in much the same way you observe Christmas (except maybe you go to church or something on Christmas eve/day)

As far as God, it's the same God you believe in. What I don't believe in, is the religion (not just Christianity, mind you, I'm against any religion). Jesus himself was against religion... but I'd hope you already knew that.


You need to read the entire context of the Jeremiah passage, as well as understand the issues Jeremiah and other Old Testament prophets were addressing. They were addressing the problem of blatant idol worship. To say that decorating a Christmas tree is worshiping an idol is reading something into the text that just isn't there.

Jesus was not opposed to all religion. He was opposed to the hypocritical, legalistic religion practiced by the Pharisees. I have found that when people use the word "religion" they have various concepts about what it implies. Some use the term to refer to the different denominations within Christianity; some use it to refer to all organized religion, especially the church; others use it to refer to the various religious beliefs around the world. Although Jesus confronted man's distorted religious practices, if you study the rest of the New Testament you will discover that the church as a local gathering of the body of Christ was ordained by God. Granted, much of what Paul wrote addressed problems within the church, but never did he indicate that the church itself is irrelevant or against God's will, quite the contrary. The New Testament indicates that all Christians are to function in community, not as isolated individuals. To reject the church altogether because of its imperfections cannot be supported from the Bible. Yes, the church is imperfect because people are imperfect. However, God established the church for some very important reasons. For one, He deserves and demands our worship; and the Bible clealry teaches that worship is not merely something we can do privately in whatever context we choose. Yes, we can and should worship God outside of the church, but clearly the Bible teaches that we are to come together to worship. Secondly, the church is God's method of allowing the body of Christ to function in this world. Also, Christian fellowship is important within the body of Christ. In addition, much (though not all) of our spiritual growth is to come through the church. I find that for many the wholesale rejection of the church is little more than a cop-out - a way to justify one's refusal to serve God and others. I trust that is not your reason.

[90dfw]

You need to read the entire context of the Jeremiah passage, as well as understand the issues Jeremiah and other Old Testament prophets were addressing. They were addressing the problem of blatant idol worship. To say that decorating a Christmas tree is worshiping an idol is reading something into the text that just isn't there.

So when people are in church praying to a Statue of God or Jesus then they are disobaying gods wishs....You bible thumpers really crack me up.

[DarkWolf]

You need to read the entire context of the Jeremiah passage, as well as understand the issues Jeremiah and other Old Testament prophets were addressing. They were addressing the problem of blatant idol worship. To say that decorating a Christmas tree is worshiping an idol is reading something into the text that just isn't there.

The fact remains, that decorating the tree is a pagan ritual as described in the bible. Something that is clearly a no no according to the bible. You don't see it as creating an idol, because you were raised on it, you were taught that it's part of Christmas which involves Jesus's birth, and a celebration... and you never thought to question how decorating a tree has anything to do with celebrating Jesus's birth. Over time, it has been accepted as a "christian" thing, just like the pentagram has been accepted as a "satanic" thing... when the truth of both is far from what is perceived today.

Jesus was not opposed to all religion. He was opposed to the hypocritical, legalistic religion practiced by the Pharisees. I have found that when people use the word "religion" they have various concepts about what it implies. Some use the term to refer to the different denominations within Christianity; some use it to refer to all organized religion, especially the church; others use it to refer to the various religious beliefs around the world. Although Jesus confronted man's distorted religious practices, if you study the rest of the New Testament you will discover that the church as a local gathering of the body of Christ was ordained by God. Granted, much of what Paul wrote addressed problems within the church, but never did he indicate that the church itself is irrelevant or against God's will, quite the contrary. The New Testament indicates that all Christians are to function in community, not as isolated individuals. To reject the church altogether because of its imperfections cannot be supported from the Bible. Yes, the church is imperfect because people are imperfect. However, God established the church for some very important reasons. For one, He deserves and demands our worship; and the Bible clealry teaches that worship is not merely something we can do privately in whatever context we choose. Yes, we can and should worship God outside of the church, but clearly the Bible teaches that we are to come together to worship. Secondly, the church is God's method of allowing the body of Christ to function in this world. Also, Christian fellowship is important within the body of Christ. In addition, much (though not all) of our spiritual growth is to come through the church. I find that for many the wholesale rejection of the church is little more than a cop-out - a way to justify one's refusal to serve God and others. I trust that is not your reason.

The new testament is about building the religion of christianity, rather than living the lifestyle as Jesus taught. It gives a carefully selected history of his life and teachings (ie: what happened between the age of 12 and 30? Why the need for the early church to "pick and choose" which scriptures to include in the bible, and which to discard? Why have the Old Testament at all, if it's replaced by the New Testament, and thus irrelavant?), all of which are given second hand, of course, and in some cases even farther out (plausible deniability). And then goes on to the foundation of the church, and some letters by Paul and a few others concerning church matters, and organizing the followers, and dealing with persecutions, etc.

Jesus taught to worship God in spirit and truth. The place of worship is irrelevant. Attending church was never a mandate by Jesus. That's a wholly church borne concept, more bodies in the churches means more money in the coffers. One could say that money is the true god of the church. It's a carryover from Judaism (and the reason why the Old Testament is included in the bible), which is clearly not something that Jesus intended on. "Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he". Basically saying abandon the old ways, and embrace the new, because as great a man as John is, he's still of the old ways. "When you pray, go into your room, close the door" ... clearly this must mean Jesus is saying you should attend church with lots of other people :rolleyes:

Jesus was not opposed to worship and spirituality, he was opposed to the institution of religion, because it is man made, and not of God.

"He was opposed to the hypocritical, legalistic religion practiced by the Pharisees." Which is so amazingly like the church and various denominations we now have under the new term "Christianity". So, naturally Jesus would oppose of the religion of Christianity as well. He did not teach religion, he taught a way of life.

I use the term religion to indicate all organized religion, including religious beliefs around the world. I distinguish religion from spirituality. And I don't attend church, because I get nothing out of it when I do. I've yet to find a church (and I've attended many) that moves me ... at all ... much less in a way that taking a stroll through a forest, or swimming in a lake, or running out in the rain, or climbing a mountain, or warming myself by a fire, or any other natural way that I connect with God does. I connect with God through my natural surroundings, and so I worship in my natural surroundings, wherever that may be. "God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth", the spirit of God is everywhere, in all things. It's not concentrated in some building, or franchised chain of buildings, so that we must flock (like sheep) to these locations where the spirit of God resides.

[poopnut2]

I would like to make one more very important point. It always has been God's plan that we come to him by faith. Those who are expecting incontrovertable proofs cannot find their way to God in this way. However, responding to God in faith does not mean that we abandon our intellect. Once we have responded to God in faith, then we can combine our faith with intellect and it all then begins to make sense. Truthfully, many Christians have been lazy in the intellectual pursuit of defending their faith. However, even Jesus said we are to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Many of us believe that there are numerous strong evidences in support of our beliefs. However, ultimately the absolute proof will come when we all stand before God. Are you ready? :)

Your posts need to start with "Once upon a time..." and end with "...and they all lived happily ever after."

EDIT: Also, you never proved your faith with your mind. You just said that you should and ended it there with when you die you'll find out. You get an "F" in Faith.

[talisman]

Arguing someone needs to observe the proper context of the bible... I LOL-ed!

[LethalInjection]

Hmmm.....

If the "Christmas" tree was brought about by "Christians" and Jesus' birthday etc.........Why call it a "Holiday Tree"

What are you celebrating.........? Christmas right! so call it a Christmas Tree.

[White trash wagon]

Hmmm.....

If the "Christmas" tree was brought about by "Christians" and Jesus' birthday etc.........Why call it a "Holiday Tree"

What are you celebrating.........? Christmas right! so call it a Christmas Tree.

But IF your celebrating Christmas as a the birth of Christ........why would you violate the bible (putting up a pagan tree) to do it? Please show me ANY text in the bible about Santa Claus, elves, presents, big dinners, and christmas trees(except Jerremiah 10, which of course FORBIDS a decorated tree). And since this tree has NOTHING to do with the birth of Christ.......does it matter what it's called?

Scott

[TexasDevilDog]

Was reading a King James bible and found this:

Jeremiah 10
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not


Seems to say that putting up a decorated tree is for heathens.

Scott

Seems to doesn't it, but it is about idolatry. If you would have read the WHOLE chapter and got the meaning of the text you would have understood that. Heck if you would have read the next verse.

5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good."

Thank you, drive through.

[TOWAR]

I would like to make one more very important point. It always has been God's plan that we come to him by faith. Those who are expecting incontrovertable proofs cannot find their way to God in this way. However, responding to God in faith does not mean that we abandon our intellect. Once we have responded to God in faith, then we can combine our faith with intellect and it all then begins to make sense. Truthfully, many Christians have been lazy in the intellectual pursuit of defending their faith. However, even Jesus said we are to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Many of us believe that there are numerous strong evidences in support of our beliefs. However, ultimately the absolute proof will come when we all stand before God. Are you ready? :)

Well said.If there were to be definative proof of everything found in the pages of the bible,then there would be in fact no need for faith.It's so much easier to go through life with your in the clouds and to do what ever you want.But what if?????

[DarkWolf]

Seems to doesn't it, but it is about idolitry. If you would have read the WHOLE chapter and got the meaning of the text you would have understood that. Heck if you would have read the next verse.



Thank you, drive through.

That's cute.

Maybe you forgot about this one: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Thus Christmas Tree = banned.

"Thank you, drive through."

[TexasDevilDog]

That's cute.

Maybe you forgot about this one: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Thus Christmas Tree = banned.

"Thank you, drive through."


Thats about idolaty, not a tree. Please try again. :rolleyes: Come on you can do it!

[DarkWolf]

... you can't seriously be this dense.

The passage quoted describes pagans decorating a yule/christmas tree, and "in context" the passage is about idolatry. The second commandment forbids idolatry and making idols and graven images.

Now, follow along please, taking the WHOLE BIBLE in context, that means the decorating of a tree, as the pagans do, is idolatry and forbidden. Therefore, decorating a Christmas Tree = banned.

It's funny how we have to take the bible "in context", but when the bible forbids something you enjoy/traditions you practice, you conveniently neglect to do the same. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[TexasDevilDog]

... you can't seriously be this dense.

The passage quoted describes pagans decorating a yule/christmas tree, and "in context" the passage is about idolatry. The second commandment forbids idolatry and making idols and graven images.


Idols != christmas tree. Maybe you can do research on the different of the two.

[DarkWolf]

My God... you really are that dense.

Main Entry: idol
Pronunciation: <tt>'I-d^&l</tt>
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French idole, from Late Latin idolum, from Greek eidOlon image, idol; akin to Greek eidos form -- more at IDYLL
1 : a representation or symbol of an object of worship; broadly : a false god
2 a : a likeness of something b obsolete : PRETENDER, IMPOSTOR
3 : a form or appearance visible but without substance <an enchanted phantom, a lifeless idol -- P. B. Shelley>
4 : an object of extreme devotion <a movie idol>; also : IDEAL (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ideal+)2
5 : a false conception : FALLACY

Christmas Tree = idol

But, while I'm at it, let's see some other idol's in Christianity (remember, idols = forbidden by God)

Statue of Jesus crucified on the cross
Statue of the Virgin Mary
Various angel statues
Various paintings of Jesus, God, Angels, Mary, Crucifiction, etc...
And miscellany other "graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Plenty more where that came from, but I'd hope the point isn't lost on you already. Then again, ya can't help those that don't want to be helped.

[talisman]

This thread is everything I think is funny about religion.

[TexasDevilDog]

Can you please point out someone that worships their christmas tree?

[DarkWolf]

Can you please point out someone that worships their christmas tree?

... that's not the point. Decorating the tree is making an idol of it... read that definition again. It doesn't say "worshipping an object", it says the object is "a representation or symbol of an object of worship". The decorated tree is a "representation or symbol" of the sun god's rebirth during the yule festival.

It also goes on to define an idol as "a likeness of something". Which cuncurs my 2nd point of idols in Christianity (which you conveniently ignored... am I hitting a little too close to home?). Do you or any Christians worship the statue of Jesus, or the Virgin Mary? What about the paintings? No? But they're still "a likeness of something"... and thus they are idols, which are forbidden by God.

You don't have to worship the object, in order for the object to be an idol.

[TexasDevilDog]

You don't have to worship the object, in order for the object to be an idol.

What is the purpose of an idol, if not to worship it? A statue can be an idol, but a statue that is not an idol, is just a statue or art.

[DarkWolf]

No, the purpose of the idol is to represent, or be a likeness of the god/deity that is the focus of worship.

Someone goes into church, kneels at the base of the crucified jesus, bows their head in prayer... are they worshipping and/or praying to the statue? No. The statue is a visual representation of the obejct of worship which is Jesus/God.

[TexasDevilDog]

No, the purpose of the idol is to represent, or be a likeness of the god/deity that is the focus of worship.


Good, now how many people have a christmas tree that meets your definition of an idol, that I quoted. Thank you.

[DarkWolf]

Good, now how many people have a christmas tree that meets your definition of an idol, that I quoted. Thank you.

Wow... anything to justify doing what you like, regardless of whether it's forbidden according to the bible, huh? I thought the purpose was to follow the bible always, not just when it's convenient for you.

You are stretching to find some loophole where there is none. Sucks when the bible forbids the things you enjoy, doesn't it?

The decorated tree represents the rebirth of the sun god. Always has. Always will. Therefore, whether you intend to worship the sun god or not, you are making an idol of the tree none-the-less, by the mere act of decorating it.

And yet you still don't acknowledge the christian idols adorning ... basically every church in the world. And many households. Did I miss somewhere in the bible where those idols are ok, but all other idols aren't? I could've sworn God specified all idols.

[TexasDevilDog]

Wow... anything to justify doing what you like, regardless of whether it's forbidden according to the bible, huh? I thought the purpose was to follow the bible always, not just when it's convenient for you.

You are stretching to find some loophole where there is none. Sucks when the bible forbids the things you enjoy, doesn't it?

The decorated tree represents the rebirth of the sun god. Always has. Always will. Therefore, whether you intend to worship the sun god or not, you are making an idol of the tree none-the-less, by the mere act of decorating it.

And yet you still don't acknowledge the christian idols adorning ... basically every church in the world. And many households. Did I miss somewhere in the bible where those idols are ok, but all other idols aren't? I could've sworn God specified all idols.

You are the one that is defining everything, just wondering what happens when your two definitions didn't fit together, but that ok. I understand ;)

[DarkWolf]

You are the one that is defining everything, just wondering what happens when your two definitions didn't fit together, but that ok. I understand ;)

Two definitions? You smoking something before you reply? Care to comment on the christian idols I've mentioned a number of times in this thread? Or are you still looking for that loophole that will somehow miraculously free christmas trees from the status of idol?

You know... it's OK to admit when you're wrong. No one's going to think any less of you.

[TexasDevilDog]

Two definitions? You smoking something before you reply? Care to comment on the christian idols I've mentioned a number of times in this thread?

Sure I will. Jeremiah 10 is speaking about idols. I don't know anyone that thinks a christmas tree represents or looks like Jehovah or Jesus. I don't know anyone that prays or worships around their christmas tree.

[DarkWolf]

Sure I will. Jeremiah 10 is speaking about idols. I don't know anyone that thinks a christmas tree represents or looks like Jehovah or Jesus. I don't know anyone that prays or worships around their christmas tree.

Probably because the christmas tree has nothing to do with God or Jesus? This has been explained way too many times already, I'm not going to waste my time explaining it again. If you want to keep ignoring it, be my guest.

As I said before, you can't help those that don't want to be helped.

[TexasDevilDog]

Probably because the christmas tree has nothing to do with God or Jesus? This has been explained way too many times already, I'm not going to waste my time explaining it again. If you want to keep ignoring it, be my guest.

As I said before, you can't help those that don't want to be helped.

Then if the christmas tree has nothing to do with god or Jesus, and a christmas tree isn't an idol, then why shold it be banned? I just don't get your reasoning.

[DarkWolf]

Then if the christmas tree has nothing to do with god or Jesus, and a christmas tree isn't an idol, then why shold it be banned? I just don't get your reasoning.

Because it represents the rebirth of the sun god. A pagan god. Whether you worship the sun god or not, it's still a representation of him, and thus an idol.

I really don't understand how you don't get this, especially since I've already explained it a number of times in this thread. Are you just playing dumb to keep arguing in circles?

[TexasDevilDog]

Because it represents the rebirth of the sun god. A pagan god. Whether you worship the sun god or not, it's still a representation of him, and thus an idol.

I really don't understand how you don't get this, especially since I've already explained it a number of times in this thread. Are you just playing dumb to keep arguing in circles?

The problem is your simple linear logic, such as; the sky is blue, water is blue, sky = water. Also you don't show a slight knowledge of the different between the Old and New Testaments nor Christian liberties.

As a Christian I use a pencil. Just because someone worships pencils, does not mean that I should stay away from the pencil.

1 Corinthians 8:4-9
Food Sacrificed to Idols
4So now, what about it? Should we eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols? Well, we all know that an idol is not really a god and that there is only one God and no other. 5According to some people, there are many so-called gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth. 6But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we exist for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

7However, not all Christians realize this. Some are accustomed to thinking of idols as being real, so when they eat food that has been offered to idols, they think of it as the worship of real gods, and their weak consciences are violated. 8It's true that we can't win God's approval by what we eat. We don't miss out on anything if we don't eat it, and we don't gain anything if we do. 9But you must be careful with this freedom of yours. Do not cause a brother or sister with a weaker conscience to stumble.

[The Pixie]

As I said before, you can't help those that don't want to be helped.


Exactly ;)

[The Pixie]

The problem is your simple linear logic, such as; the sky is blue, water is blue, sky = water. Also you don't show a slight knowledge of the different between the Old and New Testaments nor Christian liberties.

As a Christian I use a pencil. Just because someone worships pencils, does not mean that I should stay away from the pencil.

1 Corinthians 8:4-9


Good point. I guess because some people worship money, we're not supposed to use it either.

[DarkWolf]

The problem is your simple linear logic, such as; the sky is blue, water is blue, sky = water.

Technically... the sky is water, at least partially. But you know... you should sheild yourself from science and all that crazy heathen stuff.

The circular arguments and complete lack of common sense is so typical, I really shouldn't be surprised.

But answer me this: Why bother decorating a christmas tree, if it means nothing?

I wait with bated breath.

[TexasDevilDog]

Why bother decorating a christmas tree, if it means nothing?
.

My parents did it. Sounds like some sort of tradition, huh.

[DarkWolf]

My parents did it. Sounds like some sort of tradition, huh.

Yeah, it does. Let's see... tradition...

Main Entry: tra·di·tion
Pronunciation: <tt>tr&-'di-sh&n</tt>
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tradicioun, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French tradition, from Latin tradition-, traditio action of handing over, tradition -- more at TREASON
1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style

So... by your own reasoning for decorating a chistmas tree, that it's a tradition... that tradition is based in religion. You want to believe it's based in Christianity, and that's fine. You're wrong, but whatever. Either way proves the same point.

That point being that the decorating of the christmas tree in fact does mean something (else why would the original people that decorated a tree have even bothered, if it meant nothing?).

So, we're back to christmas tree = idol. Plain and simple. Christian idol or pagan idol makes no difference. God forbid all idols, according to the bible.

[TexasDevilDog]

You are funny. Did your parents pay more attention to the christmas tree than to you?

[DarkWolf]

I think you misunderstand... I don't have anything against you putting up a christmas tree. I just want you to know what it is you're doing. Don't be deluded by the marketing of the last 120 years or so.

If you're ok with making an idol, hey, knock yourself out. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[TexasDevilDog]

I think you misunderstand... I don't have anything against you putting up a christmas tree. I just want you to know what it is you're doing. Don't be deluded by the marketing of the last 120 years or so.

If you're ok with making an idol, hey, knock yourself out. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Me putting a piece of tinsel on a tree doesn't make it idol. :D You haven't even shown where a piece of tinsel makes an idol. Sorry that you are wrong.

[DarkWolf]

Yeah, it does actually. Not going to bother explaining it again.

But that's ok. If you're cool with it, knock yourself out.

Oh, btw, welcome.

[90dfw]

Wouldnt all of the jesus and mary statues that are found in churchs be considered Idols? How many times have you seen someone neeled down in front of these statues or in front of the cross praying to it?? Would rosmary beeds also not be a sort of idol?
Explain to me what the difference between some tribe worshiping a mask over in africa and people worshiping a statue here are.

Also since the bible says there is only one god and no other,does that mean all these acient tribes in africa,and various rain forests are going to hell because they dont know who jesus is?There are still some tribes that have no outside influence at all and have lived the same way for 1000's of years. Do you think it is fair for someone to say if you dont know god or have him in your heart you are going to hell?

[DarkWolf]

Wouldnt all of the jesus and mary statues that are found in churchs be considered Idols?

Yeah, I already mentioned these a few times in this thread on the first page, but no one seems to want to comment on them. I guess as long as you ignore the hypocrisy, it doesn't really exist. http://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[White trash wagon]

Also since the bible says there is only one god and no other,does that mean all these acient tribes in africa,and various rain forests are going to hell because they dont know who jesus is?There are still some tribes that have no outside influence at all and have lived the same way for 1000's of years. Do you think it is fair for someone to say if you dont know god or have him in your heart you are going to hell?

Actually there is room for polytheism in Christian doctrine, since the bible says "put no other god before me", so in theory you could have lesser gods, but you would have to recognize THE GOD as "the boss".

Scott

[TexasDevilDog]

Yeah, it does actually.

No it doesn't. You must think polishing a turd is a worthwhile career opportunity. lol

Here is my parody to your lack of reading comprehension.

Jeremiah 10
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen....for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

Cutting a tree is making a idol! woot-woot-woot!!!!!1111onewon!!!!

[DarkWolf]

No it doesn't. You must think polishing a turd is a worthwhile career opportunity. lol

Here is my parody to your lack of reading comprehension.

Cutting a tree is making a idol! woot-woot-woot!!!!!1111onewon!!!!

Now I'm totally convinced you're not actually playing dumb, you just are.

You just quoted the beginning of the EXACT same passage that started this thread... but stopped after cutting down the tree. When you KNOW the passage goes on to mention decorating the tree in silver and gold.. and you KNOW I've stated over and over that DECORATING the tree is the act that makes an idol of it. JESUS CHRIST MAN!

Seriously, your rebuttals are so insanely retarded it hurts my head. You've shown nothing but a complete and total lack of ANYTHING resembling common sense. I'm done responding to your meaningless drivel. Go right ahead, get your last word in, that's your thing... you just have to be the last word on something.

[TexasDevilDog]

Now I'm totally convinced you're not actually playing dumb, you just are.

You just quoted the beginning of the EXACT same passage that started this thread... but stopped after cutting down the tree. When you KNOW the passage goes on to mention decorating the tree in silver and gold.. and you KNOW I've stated over and over that DECORATING the tree is the act that makes an idol of it. JESUS CHRIST MAN!

Seriously, your rebuttals are so insanely retarded it hurts my head. You've shown nothing but a complete and total lack of ANYTHING resembling common sense. I'm done responding to your meaningless drivel. Go right ahead, get your last word in, that's your thing... you just have to be the last word on something.

Are you that dense? You can't see the text say, by cutting down the tree, a person is a heathen. All lumberjacks are pagans.

[The Pixie]

Wouldnt all of the jesus and mary statues that are found in churchs be considered Idols? How many times have you seen someone neeled down in front of these statues or in front of the cross praying to it?? Would rosmary beeds also not be a sort of idol?
Explain to me what the difference between some tribe worshiping a mask over in africa and people worshiping a statue here are.

Also since the bible says there is only one god and no other,does that mean all these acient tribes in africa,and various rain forests are going to hell because they dont know who jesus is?There are still some tribes that have no outside influence at all and have lived the same way for 1000's of years. Do you think it is fair for someone to say if you dont know god or have him in your heart you are going to hell?


Actually, not all Christians bow down to a statue of Jesus or Mary. I don't. And who's to say that when they do bow down, that they are worshiping the statue? Maybe they are doing it out of respect and in their hearts they are trully worshiping God. And to answer your question about the tribes that have never heard of Jesus Christ; are they going to hell? Only God knows that.

[The Pixie]

i·dol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl)
n.

1. An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.


The scripture in Jeremiah does not apply to a Christmas tree. It is referring to idols carved from wood. We don't carve Christmas trees, we don't worship them, we don't "fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not". Yes, we put up a Christmas tree, decorate it and make it beautiful and we have fun and enjoy Christmastime. However, that does not mean that we don't also celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.
By what you are saying, it would be wrong to have ANY wooden carvings in your home (i.e. a horse, cat, dog, dolphin, even a chair) If you worship it, then yes, it would be wrong. Just because I like dolphins and I have a wooden carving of one doesn't mean that I worship it and put it before God. If it makes you feel better to try to insult Christians and tell us that we're heathens because we put up a Christmas tree, then so be it.

[TexasDevilDog]

i·dol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl)
n.

1. An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.


The scripture in Jeremiah does not apply to a Christmas tree. It is referring to idols carved from wood. We don't carve Christmas trees, we don't worship them, we don't "fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not". Yes, we put up a Christmas tree, decorate it and make it beautiful and we have fun and enjoy Christmastime. However, that does not mean that we don't also celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.
By what you are saying, it would be wrong to have ANY wooden carvings in your home (i.e. a horse, cat, dog, dolphin, even a chair) If you worship it, then yes, it would be wrong. Just because I like dolphins and I have a wooden carving of one doesn't mean that I worship it and put it before God. If it makes you feel better to try to insult Christians and tell us that we're heathens because we put up a Christmas tree, then so be it.

Quit making sense. :p

[The Pixie]

Quit making sense. :p

Sorry :p

[DarkWolf]

i·dol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl)
n.

1. An image used as an object of worship.
A false god.
2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.


The scripture in Jeremiah does not apply to a Christmas tree. It is referring to idols carved from wood. We don't carve Christmas trees, we don't worship them, we don't "fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not". Yes, we put up a Christmas tree, decorate it and make it beautiful and we have fun and enjoy Christmastime. However, that does not mean that we don't also celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.
By what you are saying, it would be wrong to have ANY wooden carvings in your home (i.e. a horse, cat, dog, dolphin, even a chair) If you worship it, then yes, it would be wrong. Just because I like dolphins and I have a wooden carving of one doesn't mean that I worship it and put it before God. If it makes you feel better to try to insult Christians and tell us that we're heathens because we put up a Christmas tree, then so be it.

No... I think TDD's dumb is rubbing off on you. The passage does NOT describe carving the tree. It describes cutting down a tree, decorating it with silver and gold, then afixing it in position with nails. No where does it say the tree was carved. You don't "fasten it with nails"? You don't put the tree up in a base stand with those screws that you drive into the trunk to fasten it "so that it move not"? (the hammer isn't needed with screws, but you could just as easily subsitute nails for the screws in the base). You got some magic self standing christmas trees or something? If so, where can I get one?

I've already posted a definition of idol, thank you. It is a representation of an object of worship. Meaning the object, the idol, itself is not explicitly worshipped, as the praise/worship/prayer is directed to the object of worship (ie: a god/goddess, God, Jesus, etc).

And yes, the statue of Jesus and Mary etc in churches are idols. They are a representation of an object of worship. In this case, the statue of Jesus is a representation of Jesus, which makes it an idol. In the case of a christmas tree, it is a representation of the rebirth of the sun god (for pagans), or it's somehow a representation of the birth of Jesus (for christians), either way you look at it, it's an idol.

As I said before, you don't have to bow down and worship the idol. The point is not worshipping the physical object (idol), the point is worshipping that which the idol represents (god/goddess, God, Jesus, etc). The idol itself is forbidden by God, according to the bible.

[The Pixie]

No... I think TDD's dumb is rubbing off on you. The passage does NOT describe carving the tree. It describes cutting down a tree, decorating it with silver and gold, then afixing it in position with nails. No where does it say the tree was carved. You don't "fasten it with nails"? You don't put the tree up in a base stand with those screws that you drive into the trunk to fasten it "so that it move not"? (the hammer isn't needed with screws, but you could just as easily subsitute nails for the screws in the base). You got some magic self standing christmas trees or something? If so, where can I get one?

I've already posted a definition of idol, thank you. It is a representation of an object of worship. Meaning the object, the idol, itself is not explicitly worshipped, as the praise/worship/prayer is directed to the object of worship (ie: a god/goddess, God, Jesus, etc).

And yes, the statue of Jesus and Mary etc in churches are idols. They are a representation of an object of worship. In this case, the statue of Jesus is a representation of Jesus, which makes it an idol. In the case of a christmas tree, it is a representation of the rebirth of the sun god (for pagans), or it's somehow a representation of the birth of Jesus (for christians), either way you look at it, it's an idol.

As I said before, you don't have to bow down and worship the idol. The point is not worshipping the physical object (idol), the point is worshipping that which the idol represents (god/goddess, God, Jesus, etc). The idol itself is forbidden by God, according to the bible.

What really is confusing is you have made several comments that indicate you really don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, so why do you continually refer to this particular Bible passage to support your view? How interesting it is that at your age you have determined that your interpretation supercedes everyone else's. My father has a Masters Degree in Religion, has studied the Bible most of his life, and has studied numerous scholars' viewpoints on this passage, and all of them agree that this passage is in reference to carving idols. The bottom line is this: Obviously many people disagree about numerous aspects of the Bible. However, to make such a big deal out of this one issue can tend to obscure other much more serious biblical teachings.
In all sincerity, and without intention to degrade or argue, can you tell me what you believe the Bible teaches about salvation?

[The Pixie]

No... I think TDD's dumb is rubbing off on you. The passage does NOT describe carving the tree. It describes cutting down a tree, decorating it with silver and gold, then afixing it in position with nails. No where does it say the tree was carved. You don't "fasten it with nails"? You don't put the tree up in a base stand with those screws that you drive into the trunk to fasten it "so that it move not"? (the hammer isn't needed with screws, but you could just as easily subsitute nails for the screws in the base). You got some magic self standing christmas trees or something? If so, where can I get one?

I've already posted a definition of idol, thank you. It is a representation of an object of worship. Meaning the object, the idol, itself is not explicitly worshipped, as the praise/worship/prayer is directed to the object of worship (ie: a god/goddess, God, Jesus, etc).

And yes, the statue of Jesus and Mary etc in churches are idols. They are a representation of an object of worship. In this case, the statue of Jesus is a representation of Jesus, which makes it an idol. In the case of a christmas tree, it is a representation of the rebirth of the sun god (for pagans), or it's somehow a representation of the birth of Jesus (for christians), either way you look at it, it's an idol.

As I said before, you don't have to bow down and worship the idol. The point is not worshipping the physical object (idol), the point is worshipping that which the idol represents (god/goddess, God, Jesus, etc). The idol itself is forbidden by God, according to the bible.

The Egyptians once worshipped cats and had numerous idols of cats. So, by your reasoning, since I have a carving of a cat, that means I have an idol of a cat? The pagans used a decorated tree to represent the birth of the son god, so that means that because I have a decorated tree during Christmas... I must be using it as an idol?

[DarkWolf]

What really is confusing is you have made several comments that indicate you really don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, so why do you continually refer to this particular Bible passage to support your view? How interesting it is that at your age you have determined that your interpretation supercedes everyone else's. My father has a Masters Degree in Religion, has studied the Bible most of his life, and has studied numerous scholars' viewpoints on this passage, and all of them agree that this passage is in reference to carving idols. The bottom line is this: Obviously many people disagree about numerous aspects of the Bible. However, to make such a big deal out of this one issue can tend to obscure other much more serious biblical teachings.
In all sincerity, and without intention to degrade or argue, can you tell me what you believe the Bible teaches about salvation?

I'm using the passage to prove a point, that you (Christians) are more than willing to point to the bible to support your arguments, and prove your point... when it's convenient for you. But when a passage that clearly goes against what you've been brought up to believe is mentioned, you readily cast it aside as not really pertaining to the matter at hand.

This passage makes no reference to carving the tree. If it does, please, do tell... where or where does it go on to say the tree is carved? It doesn't. And that's the flaw in your argument, you conveniently interpret the passage to mean something contrary to what is specifically stated. You argue that the bible is to be held as a whole, to be taken "in context". Well, this passage is all about context. It's connected to the 2nd commandment, and it specifically states that the tree is cut down, decorated in silver and gold, then fastened with nails so that it doesn't move (ie: fall over). The passage is describing this process as the pagans creating an idol. Never once mentioning they are carving the tree up into some statue. You're pulling that interpretation completely out of the ether in a ... sad ... attempt to bolster your argument that a christmas tree isn't an idol.

The decorating of the tree, is the act that makes it an idol, as clearly described in this passage. This tradition was passed down through the centuries, to become what it is today: a christmas tree. The meaning behind the act, has been obscured by the church over the centuries so that it's now considered a "christian" thing (please explain to me again how decorating a tree has anything to do with the birth of Jesus?), all part of the early campaigns to convert pagans to christianity by allowing them to continue practicing their traditions. As the act has never changed, nor has the meaning behind it. The tree is still as much an idol today as it always was... christians have merely been hoodwinked into continuing the pagan traditions. You've simply traded the sun god, for Jesus as the meaning behind the christmas tree. That makes it no less an idol.

The only reason this issue has become such a "big deal", is you (Christians) trying vainly to find some loophole, because this passage, combined with the 2nd commandment, clearly forbids christmas trees. But it's "your" tradition. It's something "you've" always done. Surely there must be some mistake! Of course! The passage must be referring to carving the tree!

Except it's not.

You see, I don't think my interpretation supercedes anyone elses. Because I'm making no interpretation. I'm giving the text as it's literally written. The only ones interpretting anything, are you and TDD with your insistence that this passage is referring to carving a tree (where again, does it say that exactly?)

And really, I have no problem with you decorating christmas trees. I do myself. But you need to be aware that what you're doing is willingly going against the 2nd commandment. Not only willingly going against it, but fabricating some excuse to justify your actions. If you're ok with that, cool. Keep doing it. No one is telling you to stop. Just pointing out the facts, as laid out in your bible.

The Egyptians once worshipped cats and had numerous idols of cats. So, by your reasoning, since I have a carving of a cat, that means I have an idol of a cat? The pagans used a decorated tree to represent the birth of the son god, so that means that because I have a decorated tree during Christmas... I must be using it as an idol?

Cats were not worshipped. They were reveared as sacred animals (much like the Hindu's with cows). They were also symbolic of the goddess Bast. As Bast was the focus of worship, yes that would make cat statues idols. Cats themselves are not idols... we don't make cats. And yes, the christmas tree is an idol. As I've said over and over. I'm not saying you worship the sun god. However the christmas tree is still symbolic of christmas, no? And christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus, no? Ergo the christmas tree is symbolic of the birth of Jesus. How? No idea... you christians are the ones that decided to replace the sun god with Jesus in the pagan cum christian tradition. You replaced one diety with another. Still makes the christmas tree an idol.

[White trash wagon]

Was reading a King James bible and found this:

Jeremiah 10
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not


Seems to say that putting up a decorated tree is for heathens.

Scott

Where is the part about craving something from the tree? All I see is "cutteth the tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workmen, with the axe"

When , I cut a tree down with an axe, am I carving a bowl, or statue? who would have thought.........

I guess those silver & gold garlands don't count as "decking it with solver & gold?"?

Scott

[TexasDevilDog]

I'm using the passage to prove a point, that you (Christians) are more than willing to point to the bible to support your arguments, and prove your point... when it's convenient for you. But when a passage that clearly goes against what you've been brought up to believe is mentioned, you readily cast it aside as not really pertaining to the matter at hand..

You are exactly correct. I look to the bible in Jeremiah 10, and the passage says not to make idols. Your simplistic look on this discussion, thinks anything from tree is an idol. To you something can only have one meaning, your meaning and that is it, nothing else.

Can cutting a tree and decorating make it an idol? Sure you can, but not always. If a tree is cut and shaped, decorated with impressions, it could be an idol, or it could be a baseball bat. :rolleyes:

[TexasDevilDog]

wiki's article
Some Christians, albeit a minority, feel that the practice of having "Christmas Trees" is prohibited by the Book of Jeremiah 10:1-5 which says,

For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. KJV.
Interpreting those verses as a ban on Christmas trees may be more common among individuals and Christian denominations that are part of the King-James-Only Movement.

In other English translations of the Bible the verses more explicitly refer to the practice of making idols to be worshipped:

For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with a hammer and nails so it will not totter. Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good. (emphasis added) NIV
A full study of the passage shows that the people would cut down a tree and work it with a chisel to engrave an image in it. They would also carry it from place to place as an object to be feared and worshipped. The only consistancies with Christmas tree customs seem to be that both are made of wood and both are decorated.

Many of us don't use the KJV because we recognize it can have improper translations of the ancient Hebrew and Greek in to English. The KJV is a word for word translation and the NIV is a meaning to meaning translation. Translating from English to Spanish word for word, will be understandable but will loose the exact meaning.

To understand the exact meaning, our pastor many times, bring up the text or words in Hebrew or Greek. He explains that the words in the original forms and explains that they are more expressive that the words we use today. It is amazing that language was more complex and people had larger vocabularies, than we do today.

[The Pixie]

Jeremiah 10: 3-9
3“People cut a tree out of the forest. A skilled worker shapes the wood with a sharp tool. 4Others decorate it with silver and gold. They use a hammer to nail it to the floor. They want to keep it from falling down. 5The statues of their gods can’t speak. They are like scarecrows in a field of melons. They have to be carried around because they can’t walk. So do not worship them. They can’t do you any harm. And they can’t do you any good either. 6Lord, no one is like you. You are great. You are mighty and powerful. 7King of the nations, everyone should have respect for you. That’s what the people should give you. Among all of the wise people in the nations there is no one like you. No one can compare with you in all of their kingdoms. 8All of them are foolish. They don’t have any sense. They think they are taught by worthless wooden gods. 9Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish. Gold is brought from Uphaz. People who are skilled in working with wood and gold make a statue. Then they put blue and purple clothes on it. The whole thing is made by skilled workers.”

You honestly think that this is referring to a Christmas tree? Yes, this is a different version than was used in the beginning of this thread, but it basically says the same thing. The first post ended with verse 4 whereas I went on the verse 9. It’s clearly talking about idol worship and for you to say that we’re “conveniently interpreting the passage to mean something contrary to what is specifically stated” is absurd. You are so intent on trying to discredit the Bible and Christians that is seems to me that you are actually threatened by our belief. I have asked you before what the foundation is that you base your belief in God, but I have yet to see your answer to that. It seems that you’ve made God who you want Him to be according to your own standards. And please don't tell me again to go back and read your 7,200+ posts.

[The Pixie]

wiki's article


Many of us don't use the KJV because we recognize it can have improper translations of the ancient Hebrew and Greek in to English. The KJV is a word for word translation and the NIV is a meaning to meaning translation. Translating from English to Spanish word for word, will be understandable but will loose the exact meaning.

To understand the exact meaning, our pastor many times, bring up the text or words in Hebrew or Greek. He explains that the words in the original forms and explains that they are more expressive that the words we use today. It is amazing that language was more complex and people had larger vocabularies, than we do today.

Thank you for explaining that.

[DarkWolf]

I'm sorry, but I think it's more appropriate to use a standard bible that's been around the last 400 or so years, with little to no alteration, than a "contemporary translation" bible such as the NIV, that was compiled less than 30 years ago, presumably in an effort to update the bible for the modern world.

The NIV is a convenient way to say "oh, that's not what it meant, this is what it meant". It appears that the NIV only exists, to alter certain aspects of the bible, so that it's convenient for the "modern christian" to still look to the bible and follow it daily. It's not convenient for a modern christian to give up christmas trees, since it's been such an ingrained tradition the past 120 years or so. The KJV presents a problem for christmas trees, so the passage in the NIV is altered so that christmas trees are ok.

3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.


3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good."


Discrepency 1: Shaping the tree. No where is it mentioned in the KJV, which presents a problem for christmas trees... so let's just change that verse to say the tree is then carved into an idol. Convenient! Now christmas trees are ok.


Discrepency 2: In the KJV, the tree is fixed upright "as the palm tree" (referring to it STILL being in tree form, and not carved into some statue)... but in the NIV the whole reference to the palm tree is replaced with a scarecrow in a melon patch. I mean, if you're going to change the 3rd verse to say the tree is carved, it doesn't make much sense to continue the palm tree analogy, so you gotta make something that is analogous to the carved statue, and thus you get scarecrow.


If, as you say, the NIV is a "meaning for meaning" translation, would you care to explain how the first written information about scarecrows isn't until the late 1500's? I think if the passage in Jeremiah was meant to be compared to a scarecrow, then it would've been written as such... and a word for word translation (as in the KJV) would reflect that as clearly as it reflects the analogy of a palm tree. At the very least, it would refer to a Pariapus statue, which the greeks and romans used to scare birds away from their vineyards, an ancestor of the scarecrow. But it doesn't. It's compared to a palm tree. Exactly how does that indicate the tree's been carved?


Here's a few interesting tidbits about the NIV:


More than 64,500 words have been removed. The numerical equivalent to some 30 entire books of the bible. While many were "thees" and "thous", at least 147 verses have been altered by the removal of significant portions.


I seem to remember something about not adding to, or removing from the word of god. Don't know the exact verse, but I could look it up if needed. Seems to me like the NIV did a LOT of adding and removing. the NIV is clearly an attempt to modernize the bible, so that it's more convenient for modern christians. So that it's easier to follow. There's an old saying "There's the right way, and there's the easy way."


Jeremiah 10: 3-9
3“People cut a tree out of the forest. A skilled worker shapes the wood with a sharp tool. 4Others decorate it with silver and gold. They use a hammer to nail it to the floor. They want to keep it from falling down. 5The statues of their gods can’t speak. They are like scarecrows in a field of melons. They have to be carried around because they can’t walk. So do not worship them. They can’t do you any harm. And they can’t do you any good either. 6Lord, no one is like you. You are great. You are mighty and powerful. 7King of the nations, everyone should have respect for you. That’s what the people should give you. Among all of the wise people in the nations there is no one like you. No one can compare with you in all of their kingdoms. 8All of them are foolish. They don’t have any sense. They think they are taught by worthless wooden gods. 9Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish. Gold is brought from Uphaz. People who are skilled in working with wood and gold make a statue. Then they put blue and purple clothes on it. The whole thing is made by skilled workers.”

You honestly think that this is referring to a Christmas tree? Yes, this is a different version than was used in the beginning of this thread, but it basically says the same thing. The first post ended with verse 4 whereas I went on the verse 9. It’s clearly talking about idol worship and for you to say that we’re “conveniently interpreting the passage to mean something contrary to what is specifically stated” is absurd.


And the KJV goes on through verse 9 to read:
6Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

7Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

8But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

9Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.


That'd appear to be describing the clothing and raiments these pagans are wearing, it's vanity with blue and purple being two of the most sought after dyes for fabrics of the time, due to their rarity. Not to mention the silver and gold plates and jewlery. Signs of wealth and vanity. It doesn't say anything about adorning their idols with blue and purple. In fact, it doesn't even mention idols past the 5th verse, as it's going on to describe the pagans themselves.


No, the NIV does not "basically say the same thing". It's written in a completely different context, which brings about an entirely different meaning.


And that's one of the major problems with having multiple versions of the bible that all have slightly different (though significant) translations. Which one do you go by? The ~400 year old one that's remained relatively unchanged, and is a word for word translation? (However, due to the lack of original documents there's really no way to verify) The ~25 year old one that claims to be easier to read but alters passages under the guise of a "meaning for meaning" translation?


You are so intent on trying to discredit the Bible and Christians that is seems to me that you are actually threatened by our belief. I have asked you before what the foundation is that you base your belief in God, but I have yet to see your answer to that. It seems that you’ve made God who you want Him to be according to your own standards. And please don't tell me again to go back and read your 7,200+ posts.


Who's trying to discredit the bible? I'm quoting it word for word to support a point. I don't know what world you were raised in, but in this world, quoting something word for word is not akin to discrediting it.


And I already answered your question earlier in this thread. If you missed it, I'm sorry. Maybe you were too busy looking for a loophole to the christmas tree argument, to see it?


Many of us don't use the KJV because we recognize it can have improper translations of the ancient Hebrew and Greek in to English. The KJV is a word for word translation and the NIV is a meaning to meaning translation. Translating from English to Spanish word for word, will be understandable but will loose the exact meaning.


In otherwords, you don't use the KJV, because it's got things you feel aren't correct. It disagrees with things you've come to accept as common (such as christmas trees). So you choose the easy way of the NIV, because it's more convenient for you. Brilliant! :rolleyes:


Ah, here it is:
Deuteronomy 4:2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


Word for word that says the NIV is a false bible. Huh, how 'bout that.

[The Pixie]

I've read every post you've made in this thread. You said that you worship the same God that I do, but you don't follow the Bible. How do you know it's the same God? Where have you gotten your information on this God of yours? And you still have not answered my question on what you believe the bible says about salvation.

[DarkWolf]

I've read every post you've made in this thread. You said that you worship the same God that I do, but you don't follow the Bible. How do you know it's the same God? Where have you gotten your information on this God of yours? And you still have not answered my question on what you believe the bible says about salvation.

It's partially based on study of many religions from around the world, all speaking of the same God. It's partially based on prayer and meditation. It's partially based on events that lead me back to God after I'd denounced him. It's partially based a lot of things, some I don't care to divulge at this point as I don't know you, and don't feel you or anyone needs to know every little detail about me :)

As for salvation, there's some discrepency in the bible of what Jesus says, between Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Only in John does Jesus say "none may come to the father, except by me", while in Matthew, Mark, and Luke he says "why call me good? there is none good, except God." And "through man this is impossible, but through God all things are possible." when asked how anyone may be saved.

Personally, I think the bible offers a path of salvation for those that wish to walk it. I don't believe it's the only path of salvation.

[TexasDevilDog]

I'm sorry, but I think it's more appropriate to use a standard bible that's been around the last 400 or so years, with little to no alteration, than a "contemporary translation" bible such as the NIV, that was compiled less than 30 years ago, presumably in an effort to update the bible for the modern world.

I guess you can't comprehend, but the NIV is not translated from nor even based on the KJV. The NIV is translated from the original Hebrew and Greek, independent of what the KJV says.

[TexasDevilDog]

OK, Mr. Know-it-all, what does the original Hebrew say? Don't go by the KJV that has been around only 400 years. I think it's more appropriate to use a standard that's been around for longer than 400 or so years, with no alteration what so ever. The original text. Go for it.

א שִׁמְעוּ אֶת-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר יְהוָה עֲלֵיכֶם--בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל.
ב כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה, אֶל-דֶּרֶךְ הַגּוֹיִם אַל-תִּלְמָדוּ, וּמֵאֹתוֹת הַשָּׁמַיִם, אַל-תֵּחָתּוּ: כִּי-יֵחַתּוּ הַגּוֹיִם, מֵהֵמָּה.
ג כִּי-חֻקּוֹת הָעַמִּים, הֶבֶל הוּא: כִּי-עֵץ מִיַּעַר כְּרָתוֹ, מַעֲשֵׂה יְדֵי-חָרָשׁ בַּמַּעֲצָד.
ד בְּכֶסֶף וּבְזָהָב, יְיַפֵּהוּ; בְּמַסְמְרוֹת וּבְמַקָּבוֹת יְחַזְּקוּם, וְלוֹא יָפִיק.
ה כְּתֹמֶר מִקְשָׁה הֵמָּה וְלֹא יְדַבֵּרוּ, נָשׂוֹא יִנָּשׂוּא כִּי לֹא יִצְעָדוּ; אַל-תִּירְאוּ מֵהֶם כִּי-לֹא יָרֵעוּ, וְגַם-הֵיטֵיב אֵין אוֹתָם.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1110.htm

[White trash wagon]

wiki's article


Many of us don't use the KJV because we recognize it can have improper translations of the ancient Hebrew and Greek in to English. The KJV is a word for word translation and the NIV is a meaning to meaning translation. Translating from English to Spanish word for word, will be understandable but will loose the exact meaning.

To understand the exact meaning, our pastor many times, bring up the text or words in Hebrew or Greek. He explains that the words in the original forms and explains that they are more expressive that the words we use today. It is amazing that language was more complex and people had larger vocabularies, than we do today.

Exactly, this is why I state the bible is a legend. If you don't like what your bible says, just pick another!! With all the various versions of the bible you can twist one or another version to say anything you want!!!!!!

Scott

[DarkWolf]

OK, Mr. Know-it-all, what does the original Hebrew say? Don't go by the KJV that has been around only 400 years. I think it's more appropriate to use a standard that's been around for longer than 400 or so years, with no alteration what so ever. The original text. Go for it.

א שִׁמְעוּ אֶת-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר יְהוָה עֲלֵיכֶם--בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל.
ב כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה, אֶל-דֶּרֶךְ הַגּוֹיִם אַל-תִּלְמָדוּ, וּמֵאֹתוֹת הַשָּׁמַיִם, אַל-תֵּחָתּוּ: כִּי-יֵחַתּוּ הַגּוֹיִם, מֵהֵמָּה.
ג כִּי-חֻקּוֹת הָעַמִּים, הֶבֶל הוּא: כִּי-עֵץ מִיַּעַר כְּרָתוֹ, מַעֲשֵׂה יְדֵי-חָרָשׁ בַּמַּעֲצָד.
ד בְּכֶסֶף וּבְזָהָב, יְיַפֵּהוּ; בְּמַסְמְרוֹת וּבְמַקָּבוֹת יְחַזְּקוּם, וְלוֹא יָפִיק.
ה כְּתֹמֶר מִקְשָׁה הֵמָּה וְלֹא יְדַבֵּרוּ, נָשׂוֹא יִנָּשׂוּא כִּי לֹא יִצְעָדוּ; אַל-תִּירְאוּ מֵהֶם כִּי-לֹא יָרֵעוּ, וְגַם-הֵיטֵיב אֵין אוֹתָם.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1110.htm

Well, there's a problem. We don't have the original hebrew and greek manuscripts, because as biblical scholars copied them, they destroyed the originals. So you've got nothing to back up the claims that it's never been altered. But, we've been over that argument enough already in various threads.

However, according to the page you linked, it looks like the hebrew translates nearly exactly into the english text that's in the KJV. The one discrepency has to do with the palm tree reference in the KJV, where this one states a "pillar in a garden of cucumbers". In gardening, a pillar can be two different things. It can either be a large, tall growing plant (such as a cucumber plant), or some sort of stick or pole used to support large, tall growing plants if they have weak stems and can't support themselves. Neither of which holds any resemblance to scarecrows (I thought the NIV was directly translated from the hebrew? Oh right... it was translated from the hebrew, and then the meaning interpreted before commiting it to the canon), but at least one of which bears resemblance to the analogy of a palm tree (not surprising if the KJV is a word for word translation).

So now, you've got the "original" hebrew, which predominately agrees with the KJV, and both present a problem for christmas trees. What next, sparky?

[TexasDevilDog]

Well, there's a problem. We don't have the original hebrew and greek manuscripts, because as biblical scholars copied them

Don't kid yourself, Jewish scholars would have been the ones copying the hebrew text, not Christians. Greek text would have been done by the Christians. The Jewish people would be upset at Christians for copying their religious documents wrong.

Many texts of the Book of Jeremiah has been verified against the dead sea scrolls which date to first century.

Oldest Hebrew document before the dead sea scrolls were found, dated to the 9th century called the Masoretic Text.

The Masoretic Text is the Hebrew text of the Tanakh approved for general use in Judaism. It is also widely used in translations of the Old Testament of the Bible.

[TexasDevilDog]

Both the KJV and the NIV came from the same originals, but how are they different.

The King James Version was translated by 54 scholars (although only 51 are known) working in six committees, two based in each of Oxford University, Cambridge University, and Westminster. (5 years, 1604-1609)

The translation (NIV) took more than ten years (1968-1978?) and involved 100 scholars from the USA, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa. The range of theologians includes over 20 different Protestant denominations such as Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, and many more. It did not include non-Protestants.

[TexasDevilDog]

I really like this theology forum. It has forced me to read and learn more than I would have ever on my own. Thanks. :D

[White trash wagon]

I really like this theology forum. It has forced me to read and learn more than I would have ever on my own. Thanks. :D

I will agree with that!!!!!!!

Scott

[The Pixie]

I will agree with that!!!!!!!

Scott


x2 I just hope that everyone reading this seeks out the truth on their own. I am definitely enjoying this and am continuously learning. When a medical student gets his Phd, he doesn't stop learning and studying medicine. :D

[White trash wagon]

Pixie, i just realized you have only 62 posts(!) I guess I've read everyone of them on here!

Scott

[The Pixie]

Pixie, i just realized you have only 62 posts(!) I guess I've read everyone of them on here!

Scott


lol.... probably so. I only joined because my husband has been a long time member and he kept wanting to show me different posts and vids so I finally just created my own account. I've made a few posts in the BackPorch, but this forum interests me more. I truly enjoy the debates and again it helps me to seek out answers on my own. A lot of good points are brought up and I want to broaden my knowledge.

[The Pixie]

If, as you say, the NIV is a "meaning for meaning" translation, would you care to explain how the first written information about scarecrows isn't until the late 1500's? I think if the passage in Jeremiah was meant to be compared to a scarecrow, then it would've been written as such... and a word for word translation (as in the KJV) would reflect that as clearly as it reflects the analogy of a palm tree. At the very least, it would refer to a Pariapus statue, which the greeks and romans used to scare birds away from their vineyards, an ancestor of the scarecrow. But it doesn't. It's compared to a palm tree. Exactly how does that indicate the tree's been carved?

If you're going to use this argument, then you also need to acknowledge that the first mention of a Christmas tree was not until after the late 1500's. So, by your reasoning, "if the passage in Jeremiah was meant to be compared to a Christmas tree, then it would've been written as such."

[DarkWolf]

If you're going to use this argument, then you also need to acknowledge that the first mention of a Christmas tree was not until after the late 1500's. So, by your reasoning if the passage in Jeremiah was meant to be compared to a Christmas tree, then it would've been written as such.

Most ancient writtings have been destroyed. Shakespeare's writtings, Homer's poems, etc. Does this discredit everything that we have today about them? Are they a myth?

Not so, because the christmas tree is the current name for the yule tree (and some people still call it a yule tree), and the yule tree was in wide use at the time of jeremiah.

I also go on to say, maybe if it was meant to convey a carved statue/scarecrow, that it would've mentioned a Pariaus statue, which was in use by the greeks and romans in the time of Jeremiah, and as such, was the precursor to the scarecrow. But since it doesn't, and instead makes reference to a palm tree, it's clear the intention is to describe a decorated tree.

The difference with natural destruction of ancient writings, and intentional destruction, is a matter of intent. Why destroy the original manuscripts? The claim is to preserve the accuracy of the text, by not allowing old/worn out texts to be found and mistranslated. That's all well and good... except there's ancient egyptian texts on papyrus still clearly legible to this day, some dating 3 - 5 thousand years old. So, why are heathen texts preserved, but somehow the holy word of God is subject to massive deterioration?

[The Pixie]

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

[The Pixie]

You're not going to convince me that I'm wrong. I'm not going to convince you that you're wrong. Whether I read Jeremiah 10 from the King James Version, New King James Version, New International Version, New American Standard, or whatever version, I understand it to be speaking of idol worship as do many scholars and theologians who have spent most of their lives studying the Bible and many other ancient writings. You want to say that Christians use it as a loophole... we could say your belief is a loophole to make God whomever you want him to be because you take bits and pieces of each religion to create this god of yours.

[DarkWolf]

You're not going to convince me that I'm wrong. I'm not going to convince you that you're wrong. Whether I read Jeremiah 10 from the King James Version, New King James Version, New International Version, New American Standard, or whatever version, I understand it to be speaking of idol worship as do many scholars and theologians who have spent most of their lives studying the Bible and many other ancient writings. You want to say that Christians use it as a loophole... we could say your belief is a loophole to make God whomever you want him to be because you take bits and pieces of each religion to create this god of yours.

Exactly, it IS about idolatry. How are you gathering that I'm saying anything different? The loophole you're LOOKING for (not using), is the discrepencies of the passage in other versions of the bible, that alter the wording and thus alter the meaning of the passage. These discrepencies allow you to come to the conclusion that the passage isn't about decorating a tree, but about carving a statue from a tree. The problem is, as pointed out in the KJV and now in the "original" hebrew, there is NO mention of carving the tree that's been cut down.

So quite literally, if you look to the original hebrew as the be-all-end-all for debate, it's quite evident that the NIV, as well as a few others have altered the passage, to allow the continued pagan tradition of decorating a tree, thus making an idol of it.

And, as I also pointed out, the passage in Deuteronomy:
Deuteronomy 4:2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Want the "original" hebrew version?

ב לֹא תֹסִפוּ, עַל-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם, וְלֹא תִגְרְעוּ, מִמֶּנּוּ--לִשְׁמֹר, אֶת-מִצְו*ֹת יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי, מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם.

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Presents quite the problem for the NIV's "contemporary translation"... it's "meaning for meaning" translation.

If the KJV, AND the OHV have no mention of the tree being carved into a statue... how exactly are you mis-interpreting this passage, other than by using a bible that's unquestionably altered the wording and meaning of the passage? Alterations that are clearly against God's own instructions given by Moses to not alter his word.

Decorating the tree is the act that makes the idol. You've merely substituted the sun god, for Jesus ... who ironically (or maybe not so ironically...) calls himself the Morning Star in Revelations 22:16
Revelations 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Even in your NIV:
Revelations 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Also a mention of Morning Star, or Day Star (depending on whether you look at the KJV or NIV), in 2 Peter 1:19, presumably in reference to Jesus.

Funny, that. Morning Star/Day Star... that'd be the sun. Well, not so far fetched when you study past religions and understand that the various polytheistic gods (or angels if you want to apply the christian term), went by many names varying by culture. The sun god was usually highly revered, often the "highest" god among the various gods... the king of kings, perhaps. However it is understood that the sun god was not the creator. The creator is reveared for creating the world and the universe, but there's little evidence of "creator centric worship" until Judaism, which subsequently has been replaced by Christianity, where Jesus is elevated as the object of worship (for he is god, and god is he, and none may come to god but through him... something like that, right?), and God, the creator, takes a back seat. One could easily argue that Christianity has brought sun god worship back, and this time under one unified religion. Mayhaps we'll save that topic for another discussion, sometime.

[White trash wagon]

DarkWolf you might as well give up. You waged a brilliant campaign of dogged determination, offering up volumes of evidence that is virtually indisputable.

But your fighting smoke & mirrors. Since most christian dogma is based on emotion, with little, if any provable facts, its hard to combat. Since no religion can be proven, or really even documented, the masses who can't get through life's struggles on thier own 2 feet, lean on this "faith" to get them throught the day. This faith relieves the burdens of wondering why things happen the way they do, It's easiest to just say "It's god's will". Religious doctrine is designed that way,to make deep thinking optional, and to not question convention. This smoke & mirrors also makes religion hard to challenge, but impossible to prove.

They prove what mindless sheep they are by blindly following "tradition", even when this tradition is in direct contradiction to thier own religious texts. They KNOW that Christmas trees, Santa Claus, elves, the north pole, and flying reindeer have NOTHING to do with the birth of Christ. They even know that all the Santa Claus stories are LIES.

But with each generation they continue to push these lies on thier kids......I guess to make them better Christians? To prepare thier kids minds to believe in something that can never be proven?

And when you forced them to think about it, they fling alternate versions of the bible at you, hoping the disparity between the different versions will create enough doubt to allow them to justify thier traditional pagan christmas. DarkWolf don't use too much logic, as logic has no place in religion.

Scott

[The Pixie]

If it makes you feel better to believe this, that's fine by me. I just find it sad that you and DarkWolf don't seem to follow any one religion. You study all religions and pick out the parts that you like, therefore your god can be whomever or whatever you want him to be. You don't want to have to answer to anyone but yourself. You are right about one thing - we cannot "prove" our faith. However, to lump all Christians into one class, claiming they all are dogmatic and ignorant, reduces the whole thing to a game of generalizations - a game which you claim only the Christians play. I find that many people, some Christians included, tend to want to make up their own rules concerning God and religion. When that occurs, you automatically "win" by default. I am sorry that this whole argument has seemed to revolve around the issue of the Christmas tree. Truthfully, that really is not the issue. The real issue is truth. As alluded to before, logically there are only two options: either all religions are false, or there is one that is true. They cannot all be right since they all maintain foundational beliefs that contradict one another. To believe that they all are right is illogical. Many of us happen to believe Christianity to be based on the truth. You may choose to believe otherwise. However, you appear not to believe in "absolute truth," as we do. On the other hand, if you do not believe in absolute truth, then how can you say absolutely that we are wrong. I know you can turn that same argument back to us, but at least we are consistent in believing truth exists, and that God has revealed it. The bottom line is this: We all will discover the truth in the end. If we are wrong, what have we lost? One more thing... I am aware of the fact that many Christians are hypocritical and judgmental. However, you cannot judge all of Christianity because of how some Christians behave. You "appear" to be antagonistic toward Christianity and tolerant of all other religions. Why is that? Do you judge all of Islam based upon what happened on 9-11? Or do you judge all of Hinduism based on their belief in the caste system? I am sorry for whatever it was that turned you off to Christianity, but please don't judge all of us based upon what you have observed from some. In the final analysis, each of us must choose our own direction, and God gives us that freedom. However, may we in that choice refrain from a spirit of contention and judgmentalism. May we all choose to "speak the truth in love" (Eph. 4:15). God bless.

[DarkWolf]

I am sorry that this whole argument has seemed to revolve around the issue of the Christmas tree. Truthfully, that really is not the issue. The real issue is truth. As alluded to before, logically there are only two options: either all religions are false, or there is one that is true. They cannot all be right since they all maintain foundational beliefs that contradict one another. To believe that they all are right is illogical.

Why the insistence that all religions are either false, or only one is true? Why can't they all be true at their core? You say they maintain foundational beliefs that contradict one another... have you actually looked into this, or are you just going by what you've been taught to believe? The reason I don't belong to a religion, is because religion is man made, and inherently flawed. I prefer to just worship "in spirit and truth". I don't "pick and choose" what parts of the various religions I agree with.

Shed the prejudice of polytheism vs. monotheism. When you get down to their core, all religions are polytheistic. All have a number of gods (or angles as you call them in Christianity) that serve specific functions. All have a single creator, that being God. At their core, all have the same message. But over time, seperated by cultural differences, the practices and names, and stories changed... and as the old religions grew farther apart, new "revisions" on them began to sprout up (ie: Buddhism coming from Hinduism. Islam and Christianity coming from Judaism. Etc.) Keeping the old "core" but refining it and adapting it to a new philosophy.

Another interesting theme is the age of the "founding fathers" of various religions. Zoroastra was 30 when he abandoned the traditional polytheism of Hinduism, and adapted it to a creator centric religion, Zoroastraism. Jesus was 30 when he returned to start his teachings, that lead to Christianity. Siddhartha Guatama (sp) around the age of 30 left his life of palatial luxury to find enlightenment, and become Buddha.

Then of course there's the various "flood" legends, and creation analogies. One has to wonder how all of this could merely be coincidence. If these religions are all false and God never gave his message to all peoples... how are they so similar at their cores, and their mythos, yet they developed entirely independent of each other, often seperated by more than just miles, but by continents unreachable without the aid of ships which weren't developed until much later after these old religions were flourishing?

And Scott, yeah I know it's pretty futile... but I'm a stubborn bastard :)

[TexasDevilDog]

Exactly, it IS about idolatry. How are you gathering that I'm saying anything different? The loophole you're LOOKING for (not using), is the discrepencies of the passage in other versions of the bible, that alter the wording and thus alter the meaning of the passage.

We know the passage to mean, don't create idols, but because you think cutting a tree and decorating it, can only be to create an idols is where the rift is. To you, a budist in China that cuts down a tree and decorates it, is making an idol, even if that person has no knowledge of any type of idol or any pagan religion.

[DarkWolf]

Except we're not talking about a Buddhist in China. We're talking about what the bible is describing as creation of an idol. If you're going to follow the bible (why would a Buddhist?), then you need to understand that you're going against what God commanded, by decorating a christmas tree.

[TexasDevilDog]

Except we're not talking about a Buddhist in China. We're talking about what the bible is describing as creation of an idol. If you're going to follow the bible (why would a Buddhist?), then you need to understand that you're going against what God commanded, by decorating a christmas tree.

We all have already agree that Jeremiah 10 is dealing with idols. What you don't get is decorating a tree is not only idol creation.

[DarkWolf]

According to the KJV and OHV it is. I'm sorry that you choose to use the NIV, which based on Deuteronomy 4:2, is a false bible.

[TexasDevilDog]

According to the KJV and OHV it is. I'm sorry that you choose to use the NIV, which based on Deuteronomy 4:2, is a false bible.

Where does the KJV say that decorating a tree is always making an idol?

[DarkWolf]

Where does the KJV say that decorating a tree is always making an idol?

The lack of a specific date, or seasonal description leads to the conclusion that the passage in Jeremiah is speaking of this practice in general, meaning any tree, at any time.

Regardless of that fact, you know every tradition celebrated for Christmas, from decorating the tree, to Santa, is a pagan tradition that's been shoehorned onto Christianity. The very act of practicing these pagan traditions is blasphemous at the least, but the twisting of scriptures to justify it is an insult to God who commanded "thou shalt have no other god before me". Practicing a pagan tradition is giving praise to the pagan god(s) associated with that tradition. You've been hoodwinked by the church into continuing these traditions.

Like I said earlier, it could easily be argued that the early christians resurrected the various sun god beliefs, under one unified religion. It would certainly make sense with how adamant the church is about observing these various pagan festivals, continuing the practice of the traditions, using the symbology, even go so far as to include idols in all the churches that's clearly against the 2nd commandment ... "but we've got the new tesatment now, and the old testament doesn't apply to us anymore" ... so why bother including it?

[TexasDevilDog]

I read Jeremiah 10; not to be like the heathens and make idols.

[DarkWolf]

But you decorate a christmas tree? That makes you a hypocrit, saying you follow the bible, and not actually doing so.

[TexasDevilDog]

Decorating a tree could be an idol. Not all decorated trees are idols.

[DarkWolf]

Decorating a tree could be an idol. Not all decorated trees are idols.

When it's decorated to symbolize, or represent an object of worship (be it the sun god, or Jesus), then it's an idol. Yule tree symbolizes/represents the rebirth of the sun god, conversely christmas tree (= yule tree) symbolizes/represents the birth of Jesus.

You've exchanged the sun god for Jesus as the object of worship. The tree's still an idol.

Though, it does beg the question... why would you decorate a tree, if not to symbolize something?

[The Pixie]

I put up a Christmas tree to hang the ornaments that my son has made for me and to display all of the beautiful ornaments that my friends and family have given me. Nothing more. I don't see the Christmas tree as a representation of Christ, I see it as exactly what it is.... a tree to hang ornaments on.

[TexasDevilDog]

When it's decorated to symbolize, or represent an object of worship (be it the sun god, or Jesus), then it's an idol.

Exactually! When someone decorates it to be an idol, it is an idol.

I am glad that is finished.

[DarkWolf]

You people crack me up.

You decorate a tree, when it has no significance? You decorate it to put up the decorations your kids made? So... why only during christmas? Why not have a decorated tree year round if it's merely there to display decorations your kids made? I thought that's what the refrigerator door was for :rolleyes:

I guess if you're ok with this weak justification for constructing an idol... if it somehow abates your worries that you're going against a direct commandment by God... hey, who am I to stop ya? I'm just your friendly neighborhood pagan :D

I say again, welcome :)

[TexasDevilDog]

As I said before, you don't know:

Old Testament
New Testament
Mosaic Law
Grace

But I am glad that you are taking the time to learn. :)

[The Pixie]

You people crack me up.

You decorate a tree, when it has no significance? You decorate it to put up the decorations your kids made? So... why only during christmas? Why not have a decorated tree year round if it's merely there to display decorations your kids made? I thought that's what the refrigerator door was for :rolleyes:

I guess if you're ok with this weak justification for constructing an idol... if it somehow abates your worries that you're going against a direct commandment by God... hey, who am I to stop ya? I'm just your friendly neighborhood pagan :D

I say again, welcome :)


You said you also put a tree up every Christmas. Why? Do YOU keep it up year round? Who are you worshipping? The pagan son god or Jesus Christ?

[DarkWolf]

TDD, I don't know why you bother trying to justify your actions to me. I've said a number of times I really don't care what you do, I'm just trying to make you aware of what you're doing.

I'm not the one you'll have to answer to.

But, I'll bite...

Old Testament = Jewish / Torah
New Testament = Jesus / Creation, maintenance, and governance of the Church
Mosaic Law = Moses / Jewish / Ten Commandments
Grace = Jesus died for your sins, believe in him and you'll be saved

That about cover it? Fear not, I know plenty well about these things. I was a christian for some time, after all, and I have studied this and other religions extensively.

I'm going to ask it again... maybe you (or someone) will actually answer this time.

If you are "delivered" from the old laws by the new testament (as Paul claims)... what's the point of including the old testament in the bible?

[TexasDevilDog]

Fear not, I know plenty well about these things. I was a christian for some time, after all, and I have studied this and other religions extensively.

Good, then you should know the different between living under Mosaic Law and living under grace.

If you are "delivered" from the old laws by the new testament (as Paul claims)... what's the point of including the old testament in the bible?

Knowing the diffference, you should be able to answer that, yourself.

[DarkWolf]

You said you also put a tree up every Christmas. Why? Do YOU keep it up year round? Who are you worshipping? The pagan son god or Jesus Christ?

It's a yule tree, thus symbolizing the rebirth of the sun god (nice freudian slip there, though ;) )... whatever name you choose to give him (eg: Ra, Zeus, Mithra, or even Jesus).

[DarkWolf]

Good, then you should know the different between living under Mosaic Law and living under grace.

Knowing the diffference, you should be able to answer that, yourself.

You wouldn't like my answer :D

But I'm curious why you think it's relevant to have the old testament included in the bible.

[TexasDevilDog]

You wouldn't like my answer :D

But I'm curious why you think it's relevant to have the old testament included in the bible.

Thats ok, I have read all your other stupid stuff. Go ahead, it can't be any worse. I think we would all like to see it.

[DarkWolf]

I asked you first. :rolleyes:

[TexasDevilDog]

I asked you first. :rolleyes:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=relationship+between+old+new+testament&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8

[DarkWolf]

How does that answer what you think is the point of including the old testament is, if it's replaced by the new? All that is is a bunch of links, most look to be the "controversy" between Jews and Christians regarding the old and new testaments.

Why all the misdirection tactics? What are you afraid of?

[The Pixie]

If you are "delivered" from the old laws by the new testament (as Paul claims)... what's the point of including the old testament in the bible?

What passage are you getting this from?

What Paul was referring to was that we are no longer bound by the laws of salvation (in the Old Testament) in order to have a relationship with God (i.e. making sacrifices). He made the ultimate sacrifice by sending His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. Now (New Testament) we are saved by grace. Christ said that he did not come to earth to destroy the old laws, but to fulfill them.

[DarkWolf]

What passage are you getting this from?

What Paul was referring to was that we are no longer bound by the laws of salvation (in the Old Testament) in order to have a relationship with God (i.e. making sacrifices). He made the ultimate sacrifice by sending His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins. Now (New Testament) we are saved by grace. Christ said that he did not come to earth to destroy the old laws, but to fulfill them.

Not passage... passages.

Romans 3
Romans 3:19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


Romans 6
Romans 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Romans 7
Romans 7:4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Galatians 3
Galatians 3:10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Galatians 4
Galatians 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


Colossians 2
Colossians 2:14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Ephesians 2
Ephesians 2:14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


I understand Jesus allegedly was sent to fulfill the laws, but now being fulfilled, what's the point of including the old laws and stories with the new testament in the bible? In otherwords, if you're no longer bound by the old laws in any way, why keep them around in your most holy book in which people will see the old laws, and rightfully so might assume if they're included with the new laws, that they must somehow still need to be observed.

Surely it can't be, that because without the old testament, the bible would be little more than the thickness of a magazine... so we needed to add some substance.

[The Pixie]

There are many things we as Christians believe and practice which find their basis in the 39 books of the Old Testament. For example, the creation story as given in Genesis chapter one is recorded nowhere in the New Testament. Do we believe it? I certainly do. The story of the fall of Lucifer as recorded in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 is found nowhere in the New Testament. Do we believe it? I certainly do. The prohibition against a man marrying his sister or cousin is nowhere found in the New Testament. Do we obey this prohibition? I certainly do. The list goes on and on. There are many good principles that we practice as Christians, which are only found in the Old Testament. Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” (Matthew 5:17) Anything from the first 39 books of the Bible, that has been done away with, is clearly made known in the New Testament; such as the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, etc. These are mentioned particularly in the New Testament as having passed away, and there would be no need for them to be mentioned specifically if the entire 39 books of the Old Testament have been made null and void.
Furthermore, if we wish to discard the entire 39 books of the Old Testament we would have to discard much of the writings of the New Testament as well, because much of it is made up of quotations or allusions to the Old Testament. In addition to that, whenever the New Testament mentioned the Scriptures it was specifically referring to the Old Testament, because the New Testament was either not yet written or in the process of being written, and what was written was very scarce, with very few copies to go around.
Based on many bible verses, it is extremely evident that none of the apostles had the slightest idea that the Old Testament Scriptures were null and void. To them, that was their Bible, what they used to gain comfort, learn of salvation, learn doctrine, and convince the gainsayer. I am certain that nobody could have convinced Paul, James, John, or the other disciples that the Old Testament was null and void and that they should not believe or practice anything that was based upon it.

[DarkWolf]

It does not change the fact that Paul proclaims you are delivered from the old laws... you are no longer bound by them, as you are now under grace.

Do you need to know the story of creation to be a christian? No.
Do you need to know the story of Lucifer's fall to be a christian? No.
The prohibition of a man marrying his sister, according to Paul, is part of the old laws, and you're no longer bound by them... and... it would seem he's saying those that continue to follow the old laws are violating the new covenant, and will not be given salvation.

The question wasn't whether or not you continue to obey the old laws (either in part or in full)... the question was what's the point of including them in the bible, when Paul specifically says you are no longer bound by them, and even goes on to condem those that would continue to practice them after having recieved grace. Paul also does not deny the old laws were good for a foundation, but that foundation was embodied/fulfilled in Jesus and as such, are no longer valid for christians.

You see, I'm trying to understand why it's so easy for someone to throw out in a debate such as this, that I have no knowledge of the relationship between the old testament and the new, mosaic law and grace... an obvious allusion that you're no longer bound by the old laws, as you've been given grace by Jesus... and yet will have no problem in the same debate, dropping scriptures from the old testament to back up their arguments (albeit from a demonstrably false bible). Surely you can understand the point of confusion... are you, or aren't you going to follow the old laws? If not, why bother using them to back up your arguments?