History Channel: Shroud of Turin

[TexasDevilDog]

Dec 19th, 800 PM CST

[636ryder]

Are they gonna try and carbon date this thing for the gajillionith time? Once again no scholar of the bible but isn't there a piece in there somewhere where it says not to try and prove gods existence? :confused:

[TexasDevilDog]

Are they gonna try and carbon date this thing for the gajillionith time?

They say in the piece that the shroud can't be carbon dated due to being in a fire.

The show has some interesting facts. The one that stands out in my mind is that the image is overlaid on the blood stains. That would mean some one would have to put blood on the shroud then come back and put the image exactly perfect to match.

If this was a forgery, someone went through a lot of trouble to fool people 600 years later with technology they had no idea would exist such as, microscopes, x-rays, holography, computer image enhancement.

[636ryder]

Yea no shit! All i know about it is that the Knights of the Templar found it, and brought it back to Europe. The church found out that they had a holy article that could undermine the church so they off'd the whole lot of them except for a few of them that escaped to America. I watched a show on it a few years back, definately interesting stuff to say the least.

[Casper]

You people are way too gullible.

This is the first known photographic image ever produced. It has been duplicated quite well, using technology that existed in DaVinci's time.

[TexasDevilDog]

You people are way too gullible.

This is the first known photographic image ever produced. It has been duplicated quite well, using technology that existed in DaVinci's time.

Where is this duplication? I want to see how they made an image of a person front and rear match perfectly, they put blood on the picture before the picture was taken. And the picture has to be a 3D holographic image.

[Casper]

It isn't holographic except in the minds of the jesus mythers.

The original reproductions were done in south africa.

The method duplicated the geometric discrepancies in the features as well as the negative image. The shroud itself has been painted over in the past, and it is stained and burnt. It is amazing how people will go to great lengths to perpetuate the fraud.

It is a medieval artifact, nothing more.

[636ryder]

It isn't holographic except in the minds of the jesus mythers.

The original reproductions were done in south africa.

The method duplicated the geometric discrepancies in the features as well as the negative image. The shroud itself has been painted over in the past, and it is stained and burnt. It is amazing how people will go to great lengths to perpetuate the fraud.

It is a medieval artifact, nothing more.

Am i reading this right? You said it was made in South Africa or redone in South Africa?

[TexasDevilDog]

It isn't holographic except in the minds of the jesus mythers.

The original reproductions were done in south africa.

The method duplicated the geometric discrepancies in the features as well as the negative image. The shroud itself has been painted over in the past, and it is stained and burnt. It is amazing how people will go to great lengths to perpetuate the fraud.

It is a medieval artifact, nothing more.

I mistyped, it isn't holographic but it is 3D image. Do you have a link to where they reproduced it? In the show they had arguments from both sides, but I don't remember them saying that they reproduce something like it.

[Casper]

Am i reading this right? You said it was made in South Africa or redone in South Africa?

Duplicated in South Africa. The original is 14th century.

[Casper]

I mistyped, it isn't holographic but it is 3D image. Do you have a link to where they reproduced it? In the show they had arguments from both sides, but I don't remember them saying that they reproduce something like it.

My google is pretty limited here, bt I think the man's name was Allen. I shared several emails with him. He wasn't the originator of the idea, he just set out to prove it could be done using technology of the time.

The 3D effect is due to foreshortening of a 3D model on a 2D plate (or cloth in this case). And the fact that it is certainly a negative image is telling as well.

[TexasDevilDog]

My google is pretty limited here, bt I think the man's name was Allen. I shared several emails with him. He wasn't the originator of the idea, he just set out to prove it could be done using technology of the time.

The 3D effect is due to foreshortening of a 3D model on a 2D plate (or cloth in this case). And the fact that it is certainly a negative image is telling as well.

If you have the emails, you can send them to me. I am always open minded.

[Casper]

I doubt it, though I may have one archived for address purposes. I bet you will find plenty with a google on "south africa shroud turin camera obscura silver phosphate allen" or some variation thereof. Try it without the Allen first, because I may be mistaken on the name.

[White trash wagon]

There was a show in the Discovery Channel about the shroud. They had the foremost expert in textiles in the world look at the actual fabric, and he said the material & type of weave originated in Italy in the mid 1300's, and they could not even dream of weaving textiles like that in 33AD. In DaVinci's time old stocks of textiles were not hard to find(the Turin cloth was 100 plus years old in DaVinci's lifetime).

A method of putting a photographic image on a textile was demonstrated. An image is painted on a piece of glass in 3D relief style. Lay the fabric on the ground, then lay the glass on top of the fabric. After 6 hours in the sun, the fabric had a faint pattern identicle to the shroud.

The image on the shroud is actually "flat", a cloth layed on the body would drape over it and create a globe effect, which was demonstrated by painting a mannequin's face with red paint and laying a cloth on it. The image is distorted, because of the wrap around, or globe effect...the shroud does not display this.

The conclusions were that the DiMedici family commisioned DaVinci to make the shroud, they were the most powerful family in Italy then, and had a history of creating Catholic style "relics".

Scott

[TexasDevilDog]

There was a show in the Discovery Channel about the shroud. They had the foremost expert in textiles in the world look at the actual fabric, and he said the material & type of weave originated in Italy in the mid 1300's, and they could not even dream of weaving textiles like that in 33AD. In DaVinci's time old stocks of textiles were not hard to find(the Turin cloth was 100 plus years old in DaVinci's lifetime).

Every place I look at called the weave a "herringbone", common weave from 1st century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin_Shroud#Textual_criticism
http://skepdic.com/shroud.html
http://www.nhne.com/articles/sashroud.html
The Shroud itself was woven with techniques common to the first century. The Shroud's distinctive weave is so rare that researchers seeking to find a control sample could not find one anywhere in the world.

I searched http://dsc.discovery.com/ and found no reference.

A method of putting a photographic image on a textile was demonstrated. An image is painted on a piece of glass in 3D relief style. Lay the fabric on the ground, then lay the glass on top of the fabric. After 6 hours in the sun, the fabric had a faint pattern identicle to the shroud.

The image is not due to fading. The image is created by the a change in color of the fibers in the weave. Painting the shroud would have caused filling in between the fibers. Not all fibers in anyone area are colored. That would take some one with a microscope to paint it.
http://www.shroudstory.com/Gallery/superficial.jpg

[White trash wagon]

Might have been on A&E.

But maybe they were wrong? Although I wonder how people as poor as most of Jesus followers were able to lay hands on such an exquisite, rare piece of cloth.

Went back and did a search of DSC, and yep it was on DSC and I found this:

Look at the link in olive about how easy it was to forge the shroud. Not stating it's a fact, but I found all that from your link, in about a minute. Wonder why you found nothing TDD?

http://search.discovery.com/search?proxystylesheet=dscMain&site=dscContent%7CdscNews&client=dscMain&output=xml_no_dtd&filter=0&getfields=*&q=shroud+of+turin&go.x=15&go.y=9


Features 1 to 10 of 100


Discovery Channel :: News :: Turin Shroud Older Than Thought
... Turin Shroud Older Than Thought. By Rossella Lorenzi, Discovery News. expand. The Shroud in 2000. The Shroud in 2000. “ A determination ...


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050124/shroud.html
date: January 25, 2005
size: 28k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Boy Jesus Image Created from Turin ...
Italian sketch artists analyze the Shroud of Turin and come up with a picture of how Jesus might have looked as a 12 year old. ...


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041220/boyjesus.html
date: December 23, 2004
size: 27k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Turin Shroud Older Than Thought
... Photo Zoom. Pictures: AP/Barrie M. Schwortz |. Face on the Shroud. This picture of the Shroud of Turin was taken in 1979. It clearly shows the face of a man. ...


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050124/shroud_zoom0.html
date: January 25, 2005
size: 20k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Boy Jesus Image Created from Turin ...
Italian sketch artists analyze the Shroud of Turin and come up with a picture of how Jesus might have looked as a 12 year old. ...


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041220/boyjesus_zoom1.html
date: December 23, 2004
size: 20k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Boy Jesus Image Created from Turin ...
Italian sketch artists analyze the Shroud of Turin and come up with a picture of how Jesus might have looked as a 12 year old. ...


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041220/boyjesus_zoom0.html
date: December 23, 2004
size: 20k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Turin Shroud Older Than Thought
... site search, « back, Photo Zoom. Pictures: AP/Antonio Calanni |. The Shroud in 2000. This is a picture of the shroud when it was last on display, in 2000. ...


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050124/shroud_zoom1.html
date: January 25, 2005
size: 20k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Experiment: Turin Shroud An Easy ...
... Experiment: Turin Shroud An Easy Forgery. By Rossella Lorenzi, Discovery News. expand. The Original Painting. The Original Painting. ...
url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050228/shroud.html
date: January 25, 2005
size: 30k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Experiment: Turin Shroud An Easy ...
... Test Image. This pirate was the first image created by sunlight under painted glass. The extremely successful realism encouraged the shroud attempts. ...


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050228/shroud_zoom5.html
date: January 25, 2005
size: 20k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Experiment: Turin Shroud An Easy ...
The supposed burial cloth of Jesus could have been created by painting an image on glass.


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050228/shroud_zoom2.html
date: January 25, 2005
size: 20k


Discovery Channel :: News :: Experiment: Turin Shroud An Easy ...
The supposed burial cloth of Jesus could have been created by painting an image on glass.


url: dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20050228/shroud_zoom3.html
date: January 25, 2005
size: 20k


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Scott

[TexasDevilDog]

Might have been on A&E.

But maybe they were wrong? Although I wonder how people as poor as most of Jesus followers were able to lay hands on such an exquisite, rare piece of cloth.

Scott

Joseph of Arimathea, according to the Gospels, was the man who donated his own prepared tomb for the burial of Jesus after his crucifixion. A native of Arimathea, he was apparently a man of wealth, and a member of the Sanhedrin (which is the way bouleutes, literally "senator", is interpreted in Matthew 27:57 and Luke 23:50). Joseph was an "honourable counsellor, who waited (or "was searching" which is not the same thing) for the kingdom of God" (Mark, 15:43). As soon as he heard the news of Jesus' death, he "went in boldly" (literally "having summoned courage, he went") "unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus."

Pilate, who was reassured by a centurion that the death had really taken place, allowed Joseph's request. Joseph immediately purchased fine linen (Mark 15:46) and proceeded to Golgotha to take the body down from the cross. There, assisted by Nicodemus, he took the body and wrapped it in the fine linen, sprinkling it with the myrrh and aloes which Nicodemus had brought (John 19:39). The body was then conveyed to a new tomb that had been hewn for Joseph himself out of a rock in his garden nearby. There they laid it, in the presence of Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of Jesus, and other women, and rolled a great stone to the entrance, and departed (Luke 23:53, 55).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea%2C_Saint

[TexasDevilDog]

Went back and did a search of DSC, and I found this:
Scott

That's nice, I found that too, but there was nothing on weave wasn't of the 1st century which is what you mentioned.

[White trash wagon]

That's nice, I found that too, but there was nothing on weave wasn't of the 1st century which is what you mentioned.

I could not find the whole show on there(although there are 100 links), but the forgery method is detailed.

Scott

[TexasDevilDog]

You people are way too gullible.

This is the first known photographic image ever produced. It has been duplicated quite well, using technology that existed in DaVinci's time.

The show had a segment talking about this guy that built a big camera, big enough to get in to. He took a photograph for like 37 days. That was really interesting.

The show had something for everyone. No big surprise ending. :D

[Casper]

TDD, I looked and I don't have any of that archived, the oldest I could find is an email from Fransisco Carotta, and that is a debate for another day. But being home I was able to what you need to start:

http://www.petech.ac.za/shroud/Default.htm

I don't get all those shows so haven't seen what you two are talking about, but there are several docs about the shroud in varying degrees of sensationalism.