Creatine.

[blue5olsvo]

Just picked up some at Walmart. Does it work? Has any one had significant gains with it?

Thanks
ARC.

[Matt93Cobra]

Yes it works. You will notice more strength at the end of your sets/latter reps. You may also gain a few pounds (water weight). You will prolly have to experiment w/your maintenance dosages as too much can result in the shits, IME.

[blue5olsvo]

Yes it works. You will notice more strength at the end of your sets/latter reps. You may also gain a few pounds (water weight). You will prolly have to experiment w/your maintenance dosages as too much can result in the shits, IME.


:eek: Shits?!!?

It says 4-5 doses for a week. Then 1-2 after.? :confused: .

[poopnut2]

I used it back in highschool for a bit. Didn't notice any more strength or stamina. Waste of money IMO.

[Matt93Cobra]

:eek: Shits?!!?

It says 4-5 doses for a week. Then 1-2 after.? :confused: .

It really depends on the sensitivity of your stomach. I usually get the shits during the loading phase but as long as I don't overdo-it in the maintenance phase, I'm ok.

The loading phase generally consists of taking 1 tsp (5 grams) 4 times per day. The maintenance phase consists of about 1 tsp per day. It's good to take a week or two off after a month and then you can start a new cycle.

[exlude]

I take it fairly religiously and have noticed energy gains from it. I get headaches after some doses during my loading phase, but am fine after that.
Here is what I take:

Loading phase: 10g per day (2 x 5g) for 5 days
5g per day for 5 days
3g per day for 7 days
Maintenance phase: 2g per day for 5 weeks.

and then 2 weeks off.

[blue5olsvo]

Im a little novice... WTF is loading phase???!?!1?

[exlude]

Basically, a period at the beginning where you take more than you will later to saturate your muscles with creatine phosphate.

After saturation, the maintenance phase is to keep it in your system as your body uses it.

[Matt93Cobra]

Im a little novice... WTF is loading phase???!?!1?

You are basically just taking higher doses to get the stuff into your body for it to be more effective. I don't know the exact science but that is just how it seems to work. If you read the instructions on your bottle, it should have similar directions to what we've described.

[The Raven]

I used it back in highschool for a bit. Didn't notice any more strength or stamina. Waste of money IMO.

Creatine allows the muscle cells to store more ATP, thus increases strength and stamina. It's not a wonder drug, and the effects last only as long as you take it, but it's a good way to motivate through a growth/strength plateu. Either you didn't take enough, or weren't pushing your body hard enough to notice the difference. We're also not talking huge gains, maybe a rep or two, and a couple pounds of water weight. Caffiene can also negate the effects of creatine, as it is a diuretic, and creatine is transported into the muscle cells suspended in water.

[poopnut2]

Creatine allows the muscle cells to store more ATP, thus increases strength and stamina. It's not a wonder drug, and the effects last only as long as you take it, but it's a good way to motivate through a growth/strength plateu. Either you didn't take enough, or weren't pushing your body hard enough to notice the difference. We're also not talking huge gains, maybe a rep or two, and a couple pounds of water weight. Caffiene can also negate the effects of creatine, as it is a diuretic, and creatine is transported into the muscle cells suspended in water.

Maybe a rep or two? I stick with what I said about it being a waste of money.

[Davidm97]

I take Creatine Ethyl Ester
There is no loading phase and it seems to work better
I went from lifting 190 to 225 in less than two months
poopnut don’t you workout w/ the little gym at your apartment complex? they don’t even have real weights.....that’s why you did not see any difference :rolleyes:

[poopnut2]

I take Creatine Ethyl Ester
There is no loading phase and it seems to work better
I went from lifting 190 to 225 in less than two months
poopnut don’t you workout w/ the little gym at your apartment complex? they don’t even have real weights.....that’s why you did not see any difference :rolleyes:

I took it in highschool when I was doing freeweights. I was 16, weighed 170 and benching 255lbs. That was before the creatine. I started to plateau so I started taking it and it didn't help at all. Moron. :rolleyes: If you're benching 225 right now, you need to shut your suckhole.

[The Raven]

Maybe a rep or two? I stick with what I said about it being a waste of money.

Not everybody is as strong-minded as you when trying to make progress in the gym after a few months of stagnant lifting. Sometimes a rep or too is all it takes to get excited about growing again. Also, being able to push your muslces harder will break them down more, and provide for more natural growth. The creatine itself won't make you bigger and stonger, but the intensity will. Kudos to you if you can keep that intensity 4-5 days a week, year after year. Others may need a little extra push on ocassion.

[exlude]

I took it in highschool when I was doing freeweights. I was 16, weighed 170 and benching 255lbs. That was before the creatine. I started to plateau so I started taking it and it didn't help at all. Moron. :rolleyes: If you're benching 225 right now, you need to shut your suckhole.

I have noticed a great dif. in terms of endurance. I took creatine originally to help with muscle endurance while rowing, but I also notice I can work muscles longer/harder at the gym. Not necessarily more weight, but much less fatigue -- which translates to more strength in the long run. :D

[Stangin4Lyfe]

Man, reading this thread is giving me the sh*ts!

[black02mustang]

I could always feel the difference when i was on it. I also bought the stuff that had all the vitamins and minerals too so I thought it was worth it. Btw when i was a freshmen in hs i was 14 and weighed 170 and could do 225 at the end of the year with my previous max being 165 or so. I can't afford any now but i bench close to 275 and weigh about the same.

[Cammin4V]

Man, reading this thread is giving me the sh*ts!
yep.

[blue5olsvo]

Does caffeine work against creatine. Cause Im a tea junky.... :o

[The Raven]

Does caffeine work against creatine. Cause Im a tea junky.... :o


Caffiene can also negate the effects of creatine, as it is a diuretic, and creatine is transported into the muscle cells suspended in water.


It's purported that a caffienated drink or two a day won't cause problems, but don't drink any mire than that while you are taking creatine. It won't effect you medically, but you will literally be pissing your money away.

[The Raven]

I could always feel the difference when i was on it. I also bought the stuff that had all the vitamins and minerals too so I thought it was worth it. Btw when i was a freshmen in hs i was 14 and weighed 170 and could do 225 at the end of the year with my previous max being 165 or so. I can't afford any now but i bench close to 275 and weigh about the same.

14 is way too young to be taking crap like that, you aren't done growing naturally then.

[black02mustang]

14 is way too young to be taking crap like that, you aren't done growing naturally then.

I was in high school and played football, The Coaches were the ones that recommended it to me. But I prefer just protein mixes now. They have plenty of vitamins and minerals, and the calories needed to gain muscle.

[ruffdaddy]

i've never heard the part about storing more ATP (for those of you that dont know it stands for adenosine triphosphate; which is a form of energy), but the main purpose of creatine is to store water making your muscles appear bigger. You are suppossed to consume massive quantities of water while on creatine because it increases water retention. You are also gonna have to take more than the suggested 5g. Creatine is naturally produced in the liver so its not too harmful, and can also be found in alot of fish.

[poopnut2]

i've never heard the part about storing more ATP (for those of you that dont know it stands for adenosine triphosphate; which is a form of energy), but the main purpose of creatine is to store water making your muscles appear bigger. You are suppossed to consume massive quantities of water while on creatine because it increases water retention. You are also gonna have to take more than the suggested 5g. Creatine is naturally produced in the liver so its not too harmful, and can also be found in alot of fish.

I noticed that I would always get thirstier when I was taking creatine. I would almost always have to carry around a bottle of water with me or my mouth would dry out really quick. Is that supposed to be a side effect?

[The Raven]

i've never heard the part about storing more ATP (for those of you that dont know it stands for adenosine triphosphate; which is a form of energy), but the main purpose of creatine is to store water making your muscles appear bigger. You are suppossed to consume massive quantities of water while on creatine because it increases water retention. You are also gonna have to take more than the suggested 5g. Creatine is naturally produced in the liver so its not too harmful, and can also be found in alot of fish.

Water retention will make you heavier and appear bigger, but that doesn't account for the additioanl strength and stamina.


Read this. (http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/creatine.html)

[exlude]

i've never heard the part about storing more ATP (for those of you that dont know it stands for adenosine triphosphate; which is a form of energy), but the main purpose of creatine is to store water making your muscles appear bigger. You are suppossed to consume massive quantities of water while on creatine because it increases water retention. You are also gonna have to take more than the suggested 5g. Creatine is naturally produced in the liver so its not too harmful, and can also be found in alot of fish.

Negative.

Creatine is "an amino acid; found in muscle. Phosphorylated creatine is an important storage form of high-energy phosphate = creatine phosphate or phosphocreatine. Energy source for muscle contraction."

It retains water as a side effect, but that is not it's main purpose. And you do not need to take more than 5g regularly, infact, you need much less.

We get creatine naturally from meats we consume, but it was found that our muscles can store much more creatine than we could possibly consume naturally.

[exlude]

Water retention will make you heavier and appear bigger, but that doesn't account for the additioanl strength and stamina.


Read this. (http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/creatine.html)

Beat me to it :mad:

[ruffdaddy]

ok now that you've quoted some fittness adds, how many of you have actually taken the product? I've taken most products out there the correct way. Creatine is like all other supplements, the more you take the more you get out of them to an extent.

There are also several different types of creatines trust me ive done alot of research on this topic.

[exlude]

ok now that you've quoted some fittness adds, how many of you have actually taken the product? I've taken most products out there the correct way. Creatine is like all other supplements, the more you take the more you get out of them to an extent.

There are also several different types of creatines trust me ive done alot of research on this topic.


Lmao, since when was Rice University a fitness add?

As I said before, I have and still am taking creatine. For having done so much research on this topic, I find it odd that you still didn't know how creatine worked.

[poopnut2]

You've done a lot of research and believe that "the more you do the more you get out of it" philosophy? Sometimes, more times than not, there is overkill.

[ruffdaddy]

I know there's over kill...and thats why i said to an extent. And different types of creatine work in different ways, so why dont we go ahead and specify which type of creatine we're talking about...liek CEE, KCE, monohydrate, and so forth. So lets see what rice has to say. haha

[Last5oh]

Just picked up some at Walmart. Does it work? Has any one had significant gains with it?

Thanks
ARC.

well like anything else bought at walmart, it'll work great for a while and everything will fall apart later leaving you disappointed

[The Raven]

Lmao, since when was Rice University a fitness add?


Not to mention that the first paragraph denounces the use of creatine, citing that it's benefits are temporary, and that it's long-term risks have not yet been evaluated. :rolleyes:

I've taken creatine off and on for most of my almost 10-year lifting career.

[The Raven]

I know there's over kill...and thats why i said to an extent. And different types of creatine work in different ways, so why dont we go ahead and specify which type of creatine we're talking about...liek CEE, KCE, monohydrate, and so forth. So lets see what rice has to say. haha


If you try a little harder, I'm betting that you can sound even less educated.

[exlude]

I know there's over kill...and thats why i said to an extent. And different types of creatine work in different ways, so why dont we go ahead and specify which type of creatine we're talking about...liek CEE, KCE, monohydrate, and so forth. So lets see what rice has to say. haha

Actually, in all the different "types" of creatine supplements (i.e. CEE, etc) the creatine works the same way. It is just consumed and metabolized differently, as well as certain ones having additional supplements to the creatine. But ALL of them break down the creatine supplement into creatine phosphate and use it the same way.

For example, the ethly ester attached to creatine in CEE helps creatine phosphate be more readily absorbed into the cell by making it a more lipopholic molecule.

[Davidm97]

I took it in highschool when I was doing freeweights. I was 16, weighed 170 and benching 255lbs. That was before the creatine. I started to plateau so I started taking it and it didn't help at all. Moron. :rolleyes: If you're benching 225 right now, you need to shut your suckhole.
you want to test your self :cool:

[poopnut2]

you want to test your self :cool:

:confused:

Nice sig BTW.

[Sami]

but the main purpose of creatine is to store water making your muscles appear bigger
Water retention is a negative side-effect as while it makes your muscles look bigger it also makes them look less defined. For really ripped look you need to be as dry as possible, both in terms of fat and water.

[kal-el]

just go get a muscle magazine and read it! :D

[Matt93Cobra]

just go get a muscle magazine and read it! :D

Particularly all of the supplement ads! ;)

[blue5olsvo]

I noticed last night that I could do about 2-3 more reps than usual. It just might be a mind thing. :confused: I also have a friend that juices. This guy is huge!!11!
He told me he would give me a free cycle just to see how it works. Im debating on taking up his offer or not. I know that most of you wil not admit taking steroids but, I know some of you have. ;) I have talk to a lot of bodybuilders at the gym, weight rooms etc.. And they all say that the only way that you can get really big is by juicing??.!? :confused: . I was wondering how bad one cycle of steroids would damage my liver, make my boys shrink etc... Any input would but much appreciated.


Thanks
ARC.

[LethalInjection]

It'll work if taken correctly and you're in the gym 5 days out of the week. A friend of mine busts his a__ 6 days a week and is pretty ripped up. After hurricane Rita came through, he evacuated to Houston and couldnt work out and didnt take his creatine. He lost 7lbs of muscle in 8 days..........The stuff will help you as long as you take it like you change underwear.....

[exlude]

It'll work if taken correctly and you're in the gym 5 days out of the week. A friend of mine busts his a__ 6 days a week and is pretty ripped up. After hurricane Rita came through, he evacuated to Houston and couldnt work out and didnt take his creatine. He lost 7lbs of muscle in 8 days..........The stuff will help you as long as you take it like you change underwear.....

I call big time BS. Creatine alone (let alone much of anything) is not going to make you gain OR LOSE 7 lbs of muscle in 8 days. Even starving people can't lose that much muscle mass in 8 days.

[The Raven]

I call big time BS. Creatine alone (let alone much of anything) is not going to make you gain OR LOSE 7 lbs of muscle in 8 days. Even starving people can't lose that much muscle mass in 8 days.


He may have lost that much weight, but it wasn't muscle. Without supplementing creatine, his body was no longer retaining water, and without working out his muscles weren't pumped with blood. Very little, if any, of that weight was actually lean mass.

[Stangin4Lyfe]

I call big time BS. Creatine alone (let alone much of anything) is not going to make you gain OR LOSE 7 lbs of muscle in 8 days. Even starving people can't lose that much muscle mass in 8 days.
Muscle being the key word here...
;)
Food for thought...
I fluxuate as much as 7 lbs a day depending on the amount of chicken breastsesssss and water that I consume that day.
Well, taking a fat azz dump helps out a lot too!
Speakin of...
:D

[11secCobra]

I call big time BS. Creatine alone (let alone much of anything) is not going to make you gain OR LOSE 7 lbs of muscle in 8 days. Even starving people can't lose that much muscle mass in 8 days.

ever heard of test?

[ruffdaddy]

I realize im arguing with a bunch of unimformed retards....well more like trained monkeys. You guys go ahead and take your "muscle inhancing" products. I would love to see how great of shape this creatine has put you guys in. And you guys probably havent followed the product long enough to know that the studies on creatine have changed multiple times over the years. Initially creatine was desired for the water retention that you guys now call a side effect. Anyone that knows anything about lifting/body building will tell you that you dont try and gain mass and definition at the same time. I dont even know where to start calling you guys dumbasses. You guys believe too much of what you read on the internet.


And Raven...I love the part where you talk about how his muscles weren't pumped with as much blood....hahahahaha, as if thatll make him lose weight huh? Did the blood somehow leave his body? Oh he must have been blood doping seeing as how he's not working out anymore (yes thats sarcasm).

[ruffdaddy]

Test what? Thats gotta be the dumbest most vague reply i've ever seen.

[poopnut2]

Test what? Thats gotta be the dumbest most vague reply i've ever seen.

I know. I'm not quite sure what he meant either.

[The Raven]

ever heard of test?


He's talking about creatine, not anabolic steroids.

[ruffdaddy]

I stand corrected...

[5 point 0 ford]

I took creatine for awhile, didnt really get anything from it other than water weight. I'd go for No2, used it for about a month or so, didnt get alot bigger, but I got quite a bit stronger.

[The Raven]

I realize im arguing with a bunch of unimformed retards....well more like trained monkeys. You guys go ahead and take your "muscle inhancing" products. I would love to see how great of shape this creatine has put you guys in. And you guys probably havent followed the product long enough to know that the studies on creatine have changed multiple times over the years. Initially creatine was desired for the water retention that you guys now call a side effect. Anyone that knows anything about lifting/body building will tell you that you dont try and gain mass and definition at the same time. I dont even know where to start calling you guys dumbasses. You guys believe too much of what you read on the internet.


And Raven...I love the part where you talk about how his muscles weren't pumped with as much blood....hahahahaha, as if thatll make him lose weight huh? Did the blood somehow leave his body? Oh he must have been blood doping seeing as how he's not working out anymore (yes thats sarcasm).

Did Lethal Injection get a new screen name? Citing clinical studies as well as my own personal experience makes me an "uninformed retard"? I never said that water retention was a bad thing, and agree that cutting and bulking should be done seperately. It's actually been suggested that creatine can be used during a dieting phase to help combat the loss of strength associated with extremely low calorie intake. To use it like that though, you have to understand that you'll have to get off the Creatine at the end to alleviate the bloat, and fine-tune the definition.

[The Raven]

I would love to see how great of shape this creatine has put you guys in.


Creatine won't put you into any kind of shape, it's just a tool to help with motivation. We aren't talking about anabolic steroids here. FYI, I'm 5'10" 213ish (220 last time I bulked), 190lbs the last time I dieted down to around 12% bodyfat. 350+ bench (it's been a while), and I've never maxed legs, but I can rep 405 without wraps or a belt. I'm not huge, but I'm also drug-free to this point save for OTC supplements like Creatine and protein.

[LethalInjection]

This guy has a bodyfat % of about 7. The girl in the gym that figured everything told him she'd have to get back with him as far as his bodyfat % but it's in the single digits. She called him around noon the next day and told him it was around 7% He weighs himself every other day. 1 day before he evacuated he weighed 164 lbs and he's 5'10"

In Houston he weighed himself in a gym because he was going to sign up for a month but these people wanted some huge activation fee and he was only going to be in houston for about 6 or 7 more days so he didnt bother. He weighed himself in the gym and weighed 157lbs.

He could have just eaten before he weighed himself that day giving himself another pound or two, but he's a pretty honest guy, so I doubt he'd lie about something like that.......

[The Raven]

This guy has a bodyfat % of about 7. The girl in the gym that figured everything told him she'd have to get back with him as far as his bodyfat % but it's in the single digits. She called him around noon the next day and told him it was around 7% He weighs himself every other day. 1 day before he evacuated he weighed 164 lbs and he's 5'10"

In Houston he weighed himself in a gym because he was going to sign up for a month but these people wanted some huge activation fee and he was only going to be in houston for about 6 or 7 more days so he didnt bother. He weighed himself in the gym and weighed 157lbs.

He could have just eaten before he weighed himself that day giving himself another pound or two, but he's a pretty honest guy, so I doubt he'd lie about something like that.......


Nobody's doubting that he lost the weight, it just wasn't muscle.

[exlude]

I realize im arguing with a bunch of unimformed retards....well more like trained monkeys. You guys go ahead and take your "muscle inhancing" products. I would love to see how great of shape this creatine has put you guys in. And you guys probably havent followed the product long enough to know that the studies on creatine have changed multiple times over the years. Initially creatine was desired for the water retention that you guys now call a side effect. Anyone that knows anything about lifting/body building will tell you that you dont try and gain mass and definition at the same time. I dont even know where to start calling you guys dumbasses. You guys believe too much of what you read on the internet.

Is 1835 a long enough history of the supplement?

In 1835, the French scientist Michel Eugène Chevreul discovered a component of skeletal muscle that he later named creatine after the Greek word for flesh, Kreas.

In 1912, researchers found that ingesting creatine can dramatically boost the creatine content of the muscle. In the late 1920s, scientists found that the intramuscular stores of creatine can be increased by ingesting creatine in larger than normal amounts, discovered creatine phosphate, and determined that creatine is a key player in the metabolism of skeletal muscle.

You are the uneducated halfwit who thought its primary purpose was to retain water. You are the uneducated halfwit who didn't understand the use of ATP and conversion of ADP to ATP by means of creatine phosphate. Regardless, what OLD studies say about creatine doesn't make your earlier understanding any more correct about how it works. Sounds like you are backpeddling to avoid the fact that you earlier claimed:

i've never heard the part about storing more ATP (for those of you that dont know it stands for adenosine triphosphate; which is a form of energy), but the main purpose of creatine is to store water making your muscles appear bigger

Talk about uninformed. Even if people once, way back when, took creatine for the water saturation...that is not what it is used for today. Way to go with the antiquated understanding. But the Wikipedia quote I posted above mentions nothing about water retaining being a perk.

How about you cite some credible sources for your side of the arguement? Like, say, a university or reference database.


And Raven...I love the part where you talk about how his muscles weren't pumped with as much blood....hahahahaha, as if thatll make him lose weight huh? Did the blood somehow leave his body? Oh he must have been blood doping seeing as how he's not working out anymore (yes thats sarcasm).

Do you think blood vessles live forever? Wrong, they are constantly being broken down and new ones being synthesized. Now, if you are in a period of consistently utilizing your muscles...they will demand larger quantities of blood. Less blood vessles will be broken down while more are continuing to be synthesized. Your blood volume is NOT a constant.

[exlude]

In the muscles, a fraction of the total creatine binds to phosphate - forming creatine phosphate. The reaction is catalysed by creatine kinases, and the result is phosphocreatine (PCr). Phosphocreatine binds with ADP to convert it back to ATP, an important cellular energy source.

There is scientific evidence that taking creatine supplements can marginally increase athletic performance in high-intensity, anaerobic exercise. Ingesting creatine can increase the level of phosphocreatine in the muscles up to 20%. An additional study (Rae et al, 2003) suggests increased mental capabilities as a result of oral intake of creatine over a 60 day period.

It must be noted creatine has no significant effect on aerobic exercise (Engelhardt et al, 1998).

A majority of studies conclude that creatine supplementation increases both total and fat-free body mass. Since body mass gains of about 1 kg can occur in a week's time, several studies suggest that the gain is simply due to greater water retention inside the muscle cells. However, studies into the long-term effect of creatine supplementation suggest that body mass gains cannot be explained by increases in intracellular water alone. In the longer term, the increase in total body water is reported to be proportional to the weight gains, which means that the percentage of total body water is not significantly changed. The magnitude of the weight gains during training over a period of several weeks argue against the water-retention theory.

It is possible that the initial increase in intracellular water increases osmotic pressure, which in turn stimulates protein synthesis. A few studies have reported changes in the nitrogen balance during creatine supplementation, suggesting that creatine increases protein synthesis and/or decreases protein breakdown.

Also, research has shown that creatine increases the activity of myogenic cells. These cells, sometimes called satellite cells, are myogenic stem cells that make hypertrophy of adult skeletal muscle possible. These stem cells are simply generic or non-specific cells that have the ability to transform themselves into new muscle cells when they are instructed to. Following proliferation (reproduction) and subsequent differentiation (to become a specific type of cell), these satellite cells will fuse with one another or with the adjacent damaged muscle fiber, thereby increasing myonuclei numbers necessary for fiber growth and repair. The study, published in the International Journal of Sports Medicine was able to show that creatine supplementation increased the number of myonuclei donated from satellite cells. This increases the potential for growth of those fibers. This increase in myonuclei probably stems from creatine's ability to increase levels of the myogenic transcription factor MRF4 (Hespel, 2001).

Since creatine may allow athletes to train harder and recover faster, the enhanced training stimulus may promote greater muscle hypertrophy in the long term. Ultimately, the increase in muscle mass is probably attributable to a combination of all these factors: greater water retention inside the muscle cells, increase in protein synthesis and/or decrease in protein breakdown and greater training stimulus.

Sources:
Engelhardt M, Neumann G, Berbalk A, Reuter I (1998). Creatine supplementation in endurance sports., British Journal of Med Sci Sports Exerc., 30(7): 1123-9.

Hespel P, Op't Eijnde B, Van Leemputte M, Urso B, Greenhaff PL, Labarque V, Dymarkowski S, Van Hecke P, Richter EA. (2001). Oral creatine supplementation facilitates the rehabilitation of disuse atrophy and alters the expression of muscle myogenic factors in humans, J Physiol., 2001 Oct 15(536(Pt 2)): 625-33.

Rae C, Digney AL, McEwan SR, Bates TC (2003). Oral creatine monohydrate supplementation improves cognitive performance; a placebo-controlled, double-blind cross-over trial., Proceedings of the Royal Society of London - Biological Sciences, 270(1529): 2147-2150.

Found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine

[White_lightning]

Personaly i think to many peole are arguing over crap here.. IMO you DONT need any of this shit at a beginner level. it wasnt till iwas in my 260s that i even bothered with anything other then protein powder. .and even then i didnt take it consistnatly because as soon as you stop you lose the results.

I guess today people want the easy way out. if you want to gain alot of muscle. lift HARD and heavy and eat alot of chicken.

[Stangin4Lyfe]

...You too will grow big guns like those in WL's signature.
;)

[The Raven]

Personaly i think to many peole are arguing over crap here.

There's no argument, there are a few people handing out documented medical facts, and educated opinions based on experience, and a single person telling us we're "uninformed retards". :rolleyes:



IMO you DONT need any of this shit at a beginner level. it wasnt till iwas in my 260s that i even bothered with anything other then protein powder. .and even then i didnt take it consistnatly because as soon as you stop you lose the results.

I agree completely. Creatine has no place in a beginners regimen, as there is plenty of natural anabolic action going on. The temporary effects of creatine will simply give a false sense of progress, and be a bit of a let down on the back end, even though the person will be bigger and stronger from that natural growth.



I guess today people want the easy way out. if you want to gain alot of muscle. lift HARD and heavy and eat alot of chicken.

I agree with this too, but creatine isn't and easy way out. It is a temporary kick in the pants for someone who is a little burned out mentally, or stuck in a rut physically. It is not anabolic in nature, and shouldn't be considered t be some wonder drug.

[blue5olsvo]

I noticed last night that I could do about 2-3 more reps than usual. It just might be a mind thing. :confused: I also have a friend that juices. This guy is huge!!11!
He told me he would give me a free cycle just to see how it works. Im debating on taking up his offer or not. I know that most of you wil not admit taking steroids but, I know some of you have. ;) I have talk to a lot of bodybuilders at the gym, weight rooms etc.. And they all say that the only way that you can get really big is by juicing??.!? :confused: . I was wondering how bad one cycle of steroids would damage my liver, make my boys shrink etc... Any input would but much appreciated.


Thanks
ARC.



Thanks for answering my questions :confused: ...

[The Raven]

Thanks for answering my questions :confused: ...

Is he giving you a full cycle, including PCT? If not, don't bother. Given the cost involved, I'd be skeptical of someone offering to "give" me several hundred dollars worth of an illegal substance. It may be heavily diluted, and you have no idea what with.

[blue5olsvo]

Is he giving you a full cycle, including PCT? If not, don't bother. Given the cost involved, I'd be skeptical of someone offering to "give" me several hundred dollars worth of an illegal substance. It may be heavily diluted, and you have no idea what with.

We have been close friends since high school, I trust the guy. Yes its a full cycle.

[exlude]

Thanks for answering my questions :confused: ...

Well, you can only get professional body builder huge by juicing. But you can still get pretty damn big without them.


As for damage and if you should take them...that's a whole 'nother can of worms. People will always argue both sides. Personally, I prefer being natural.

[blue5olsvo]

Well, you can only get professional body builder huge by juicing. But you can still get pretty damn big without them.


As for damage and if you should take them...that's a whole 'nother can of worms. People will always argue both sides. Personally, I prefer being natural.

Im fed up with working my ass off and just get a "little bigger".

[5111]

Im fed up with working my ass off and just get a "little bigger".
I have no problem with people juicing. I don't do it, but I don't have a problem with others doing it. You still have to bust your ass to get big on the juice.

But, you just posted a thread about getting stretch marks. To me that says that you are getting more than a "little bigger" and that you still have plenty of natural growth and progress left. If I ever juice it will be once I reach the point where I am not seeing progress.

Just my $0.02

[White_lightning]

define really big.. i have been lifting for a LONG time naturally and dont considermyself " really big.. would i just to get " really big? SURE!! if i was a PRO and it was my job.. otherwise why??? no matter WHAT they tell you. once you drop the cyle you will lose almost al you gained.. especially if you dont have the genetics to get big.. as soon as you stop juicing say good bye to your beaf.

[blue5olsvo]

define really big.. i have been lifting for a LONG time naturally and dont considermyself " really big.. would i just to get " really big? SURE!! if i was a PRO and it was my job.. otherwise why??? no matter WHAT they tell you. once you drop the cyle you will lose almost al you gained.. especially if you dont have the genetics to get big.. as soon as you stop juicing say good bye to your beaf.


So once your done with the cycle, began lifting naturally again you will lose the gained muscle? Im not sure if I have the good genetics or not!?!11? :confused:

[Davidm97]

define really big.. i have been lifting for a LONG time naturally and dont considermyself " really big.. would i just to get " really big? SURE!! if i was a PRO and it was my job.. otherwise why??? no matter WHAT they tell you. once you drop the cyle you will lose almost al you gained.. especially if you dont have the genetics to get big.. as soon as you stop juicing say good bye to your beaf.
i always seem to agree with you but not on this one
i know plenty of guys who have done a few cycles and kept a good majority of their bulk on

[White_lightning]

i always seem to agree with you but not on this one
i know plenty of guys who have done a few cycles and kept a good majority of their bulk on
most of the people i know lose it. now keep in mind. if they lifted 5 years. gained nothing. and juiced, gained 20 and kept 10. then well yes. its a "big gain" realtively speaking. but losing 50% of it isnt worth it. also.. how do you know they are 100% clean afterwards?

i guess for me its a mental block. i like being natural. i know that when i took 3 years off. i could still move 315 day 1.. and in 3 months i had my strength back with no drugs.. i like knowing that what ever i lose.. i can regain because its all mine and not borrowed..

[11secCobra]

He's talking about creatine, not anabolic steroids.

i was just jokin man ;)

[ruffdaddy]

haha wow...you guys are taking this way too serious....Breaking out the "wikipedia" and all. You guys can go ahead and waste your money on creatine. Im not even gonna argue because you guys are way too good at surfing the net for bull shit information...and im sure all of you guys shop at GNC too. hahaha. And i loved your explanation of ATP synthesis....you dumb fuck...go to college. Maybe you'll learn something true.


And to answer your question...creatine is overrated and overpriced....unless you're the raven or exlude and you see great results. I have taken it and all correctly with little to no benefits. The only supplement you will see noticeable results with is roids...

[exlude]

haha wow...you guys are taking this way too serious....Breaking out the "wikipedia" and all. You guys can go ahead and waste your money on creatine. Im not even gonna argue because you guys are way too good at surfing the net for bull shit information...and im sure all of you guys shop at GNC too. hahaha. And i loved your explanation of ATP synthesis....you dumb fuck...go to college. Maybe you'll learn something true.

Maybe I will do that next, after I complete my Cell and Molecular Biology degree at UT that I'm finishing up.

Do you even know how ATP works? As you said before, it stands for Adenosine Tri-Phosphate. The energy is actually derived from the BREAKING of one of the phosphate bonds which gives off the electrons. After the release of this phosphate, it becomes Adenosine Di-phosphate aka ADP. In order to keep from having to synthesize brand new ATP molecules (which wastes energy) the body is able to regenerate the "used" ADP back into ATP by supplying it with another phosphate. Creatine phosphate happens to be an excellent source for this phosphate and is readily available far before the time it takes for respiration by oxidative phosphorylation to replenish ATP in its own fashion.

I'm still waiting for your credible sources arguing otherwise, but I don't expect them. It's become fairly clear that you have reduced yourself to mindless sqwaking because you don't have a leg to stand on in this argument.

[ruffdaddy]

I have experience to stand on dickhead....and yes i know about the replenishing of ATP throught the conversion of ADP....its all in highschool freshman biology classes. Wow...you're so advanced. So how long ahve you taken creatine...and what makes you an expert besides knowing how to surf the net?

[exlude]

I have experience to stand on dickhead....and yes i know about the replenishing of ATP throught the conversion of ADP....its all in highschool freshman biology classes. Wow...you're so advanced. So how long ahve you taken creatine...and what makes you an expert besides knowing how to surf the net?


Ohhh, wow, experience. Doesn't mean you know shit about how it works.
I have taken creatine for several years, on and off. I don't claim to be an expert, it just obvious that you don't know shit about it after having been schooled several times in this thread.

Still waiting on your credible sources to back up your argument.

[ruffdaddy]

Do us all a favor and dont ever try and debate...it would be pretty funny watching you after you think you've proven a point. Internet resources mean nothing dumbass. Can you explain how your computer works? No, but that doesn't mean it doesn't....Just like i dont have to explain how creatine functions to conclude that its not worth the money. You dumbfuck....now lets see how good of shape youre in you little bitch...go ahead and prove me wrong again. hahaha. You're just like a boxer....jumping around with your arms up like you've won something.

[exlude]

Do us all a favor and dont ever try and debate...it would be pretty funny watching you after you think you've proven a point. Internet resources mean nothing dumbass. Can you explain how your computer works? No, but that doesn't mean it doesn't....Just like i dont have to explain how creatine functions to conclude that its not worth the money. You dumbfuck....now lets see how good of shape youre in you little bitch...go ahead and prove me wrong again. hahaha. You're just like a boxer....jumping around with your arms up like you've won something.

Are you having trouble keeping up or are you just trying to change the topic again to save face?

I'm not arguing if it is or isn't worth the money. That is all opinion. I'm shutting you down on the point you made:
but the main purpose of creatine is to store water making your muscles appear bigger.
which just exemplifies the fact that you don't know what you are talking about. I have been explaining the science to you, which you clearly didn't understand. And yes, I can explain how my computer works. Atleast on a fundamental level. But I don't go around telling people that PCs are only good for word processing and surfing the net because that is all I have done on them, much like yourself with creatine. It's simply hillarious that, after being shut down, you continue to call other people uninformed because you have "experience".

Again, waiting for your sources to argue the above as true.

Finally, I'm in pretty damn good shape. Not because of creatine but because of competing on the Texas Crew team.

[ruffdaddy]

alright dumbass...I already explained how useless "proof" is over the internet. I could make a website with all kinds of BS if i wanted. Or i could edit a topic on wikipedia. The whole reason this thread was started to discuss whether creatine was worth it or not in a weightlifting environment...Looks like you missed the point. How do you not understand! People take the fucking product to look bigger you dipshit. I lift all the time. Im in excellent shape not because im on some crew team...but becasue i was a powerlifter, and still lift heavy, but have diverted to tonality and mass increase. Creatine is for highschool kids to make them think they're taking something to help them. I still dont see what or how you aren't understanding what this thread is about. Go ahead....look up another science lesson on ATP synthesis....and why dont you explain and name the processes that produce the ATP's. And how about the net productivity of the processes. I knwo what you're talking about, and i know about ATP synthesis...what i am telling you is that it has little relevance to this thread. Creatine is taken as a MUSCLE ENHANCER!

[exlude]

Creatine is taken as a MUSCLE ENHANCER!

Well shit, are you changing your opinion now? Is it more than just a water absorbant? Because that would contradict your earlier statement.

And you are/were arguing that it isn't worth it because it's main purpose is to store water. Which simply isn't true. If you are going to argue against something, base it on a factual reasonality. If you want to help the thread starter, explain to him the actual reasons creatine does and doesn't work. What it actually does and doesn't do. Don't fucking make up shit and call it a fact. Then, not only have you helped NO ONE, you look like the fucking idiot you are.

Creatine does increase short term energy. Creatine monohydrate is absorbed by cells and used as creatine phosphate. Whether or not you think it's worth it, again, is opinion. Doesn't make you any less of a dumbshit for calling other people "uninformed retards" when you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Don't argue science and tell other people to go to college, when you are unwilling to substantiate your claims.

I know there are tons of shitty websites out there. That's why I asked you for a CREDIBLE source. Such as, say, a university or reference database. Maybe a medical journal? Hell, at this point I would take any website considering we all know you are full of shit. But go ahead, continue to try to mask your uneducated, incorrect claim by changing the topic.

[ruffdaddy]

Medical studies on products like this aren't worth shit seeing as how they change their opinions from year to year. Studies also said creatine can contribute to the development of diabities. You are basing all your shit on your "online research"; Im basing it on personal use and the use by many others im associated with. I know studies have shown all kinda of bogus bullshit. But take a look at all products that have come out over the past several years and thier studies. Then look at how many of them died off because people realized they all fall in the "results not typical" group. Inexperienced people are the main ones consuming creatine because anyone knows the truly make gains you have to take a prohormone. Im through arguing with your dumbass professor dip shit. I dont need to prove a poitn i already did. My point is that studies over this stuff are almost worthless. Most are biased, they dont tell you how little effect they actually have (they just tell you what they can do), and if you've actually taken this product you know how overpriced it is. It falls in the same category as Nitric Oxide...haha i bet thats something else you would defend. Go ahead and explain a hemodialator to us. Ill give you a little time to start your eStudies.

Just to clarify my point....Scientific studies mean very little and are always changing.

[exlude]

Medical studies on products like this aren't worth shit seeing as how they change their opinions from year to year. Studies also said creatine can contribute to the development of diabities. You are basing all your shit on your "online research"; Im basing it on personal use and the use by many others im associated with. I know studies have shown all kinda of bogus bullshit. But take a look at all products that have come out over the past several years and thier studies. Then look at how many of them died off because people realized they all fall in the "results not typical" group. Inexperienced people are the main ones consuming creatine because anyone knows the truly make gains you have to take a prohormone. Im through arguing with your dumbass professor dip shit. I dont need to prove a poitn i already did. My point is that studies over this stuff are almost worthless. Most are biased, they dont tell you how little effect they actually have (they just tell you what they can do), and if you've actually taken this product you know how overpriced it is. It falls in the same category as Nitric Oxide...haha i bet thats something else you would defend. Go ahead and explain a hemodialator to us. Ill give you a little time to start your eStudies.

Just to clarify my point....Scientific studies mean very little and are always changing.

LMAO, you havn't and can't provide any support to anything you say. Point me to ANY reference that will substatiate your claim.

If you knew what you were talking about, you would know creatine is vastly different than a hemodialator. You would know how hemodialators can, overtime, cause damage to the heart. But, of course, your stupid ass bases everything off "experience" as if you could see the chemical reactions going on inside your body and then your preach that to other people as if everyone's body is going to respond the same. How naive. Further, your uneducated self attemps to call other people "uninformed" when you are the one who doesn't trust any science and stays in the dark...following studies from the 80s. One of these days your "feelings" will bite you in the ass when you havn't "felt" your heart enlarging and you drop dead from a heart attack. But hey, science was never to be credited.

Now, in no way am I claiming that everything you read can be trusted. But the compounded evidence and verifiable and repeatable studies (i.e. results typical) on creatine and discoveries within the cell hold a pretty damn strong argument against your "feelings". But, I'm fairly confident it's clear how uneducated you are on the subject as you refuse to provide ANYTHING that will support you.

[11secCobra]

haha wow...you guys are taking this way too serious....Breaking out the "wikipedia" and all. You guys can go ahead and waste your money on creatine. Im not even gonna argue because you guys are way too good at surfing the net for bull shit information...and im sure all of you guys shop at GNC too. hahaha. And i loved your explanation of ATP synthesis....you dumb fuck...go to college. Maybe you'll learn something true.


And to answer your question...creatine is overrated and overpriced....unless you're the raven or exlude and you see great results. I have taken it and all correctly with little to no benefits. The only supplement you will see noticeable results with is roids...

your an idiot. if you take it like your supposed to, and eat right etc. you can see GREAT results. hell, i gained 35lbs in muscle in 3 months when i was tryin to put on weight for football just taking creatine and whey protein

[ruffdaddy]

holy shit i give up with you retards. I already proved my point...im sorry i didnt provide evidence as to how according to my experience creatine isn't worth the money. What evidence are you wanting dip shit. I see you asking for it but you aren't even saying what you want me to prove. I know what the fucking studies say you jackass. and i knwo they're all overexaggerated and bogus. Like i said...read the bottom of your fittness add and notice the results not typical line. Experience is worth a hell of a lot more than any article or study IMO. But according to exlude...you MUST believe it if its written.

And I call BS 11secCobra...I may be wrong but i really think you're full of shit saying you gained that much just on creatine and protein. Maybe if you started out at 130...and even then i think you're liar. I guess its plausable if you started out as a begginner.

Im through arguing with bill neye over here. Im going to answer your question once more....Creatine will provide more mental support than anything else. From experience...the cost to benefit ratio doesn't match up. Take steroids if you really want to gain. Or if you really want some good stuff take growth hormone.

[ruffdaddy]

"your an idiot."

Do i even need to defend myself against that? hahaha...

[exlude]

holy shit i give up with you retards. I already proved my point...im sorry i didnt provide evidence as to how according to my experience creatine isn't worth the money. What evidence are you wanting dip shit. I see you asking for it but you aren't even saying what you want me to prove. I know what the fucking studies say you jackass. and i knwo they're all overexaggerated and bogus. Like i said...read the bottom of your fittness add and notice the results not typical line. Experience is worth a hell of a lot more than any article or study IMO. But according to exlude...you MUST believe it if its written.

And I call BS 11secCobra...I may be wrong but i really think you're full of shit saying you gained that much just on creatine and protein. Maybe if you started out at 130...and even then i think you're liar. I guess its plausable if you started out as a begginner.

Im through arguing with bill neye over here. Im going to answer your question once more....Creatine will provide more mental support than anything else. From experience...the cost to benefit ratio doesn't match up. Take steroids if you really want to gain. Or if you really want some good stuff take growth hormone.

Failed reading comprehension, huh?


but the main purpose of creatine is to store water making your muscles appear bigger.
Again, waiting for your sources to argue the above as true.


I've said it atleast 5 times, having trouble keeping up?

I never said you must believe anything, halfwit. I said that your arguing based on half-truths is idiotic. Further, the fact that you attempt to call people "uninformed retards" because you have "experience" on your side makes you a fucking mental abortion.

So it didn't work for you, does that mean it doesn't work for other people? Get a clue. So you didn't see the phosphorylation taking place, does that mean it didnt happen? Again, get a clue, reject.

[exlude]

"your an idiot."

Do i even need to defend myself against that? hahaha...

Despite the misspelling, it's unfortunate for you how correct he is.

[The Raven]

I already proved my point...im sorry i didnt provide evidence as to how according to my experience creatine isn't worth the money.


How can you prove something without evidence? You have done nothing, but share your own personal opinion (to which you are entitled) based on your personal experience, while tying to pass it off as hard fact, as well as sling unecessary insults at those of us with medical and biological studies backing up our opposing opinion.



Exlude, just stop. Your beating your head against a brick wall.

[White_lightning]

who needs deca when we have creatin..?:) lol
no offence 11sec cobra. but i can GAURANTEE you that you didnt gain 35lbs of muscle in a few weeks from creatin.. creatin just doesnt do that. if you gained 35. im willing to bet it was an even mix of water and muscle and that most of the muscle gains came from the addition of whey to your diet.

[Davidm97]

<---wants to take deca
wl what do you know about deca?
pm i have questions

[The Raven]

who needs deca when we have creatin..?:) lol


I know, right?! Creatine isn't anabolic (creates muscle), it simply gives the user a little more strength and stamina, and the appearance of being bigger by saturating the muscles with water. When you quit taking it, your strength returns to "normal", and the water is pissed out. If you've used it appropriately to amp up your motivation and intensity in the gym, then end result is that you gained a little more natural strength and size due to that intensity. Creatine WIL NOT do the work for you, and anyone (like ruffdaddy) expecting it to will be sorely disappointed.

[White_lightning]

<---wants to take deca
wl what do you know about deca?
pm i have questions
I know every little about taking steroids.. **fixed*** never taken any PERIOD!

[ruffdaddy]

wait raven....you just agreed with me. I know creatine wont do the work for you...and i know it wont even help you much if you're doing the work yourself. You must have gotten lost along the way.

And its not a mispelling....its the wrong word. He uses it more than once. Its just completely ironic!

[The Raven]

wait raven....you just agreed with me. I know creatine wont do the work for you...and i know it wont even help you much if you're doing the work yourself. You must have gotten lost along the way.


I'm not agreeing with you, Creatine can be very beneficial in certain circumstances. You aren't at a point (and may never be) where the effectrs of Creatine are usefull or cost-effective, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's place as a useful supplement. Again, you are stating your opinion, which is based on your own personal experience/body chemistry/mental intensity as fact, when it is simply an opinion. To ignore that it could be useful to others is simply self-centered and ignorant.

[White_lightning]

I'm not agreeing with you, Creatine can be very beneficial in certain circumstances. You aren't at a point (and may never be) where the effectrs of Creatine are usefull or cost-effective, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's place as a useful supplement. Again, you are stating your opinion, which is based on your own personal experience/body chemistry/mental intensity as fact, when it is simply an opinion. To ignore that it could be useful to others is simply self-centered and ignorant.
I agree and disagree with both of you its 100% person specific. no to bodies react to the same "suppliment" in the 100% same way. I know for a FACT that got boost gets stronger when he is taking creatin.. it doesnt do shit for me no matter how much i take. but for me. if i take glutamine and 4-5g of Vit C.. i get stronger, recover faster and just have more push. Either way. none of them are anablic and none of them will make you gain 35lbs of muscle in a few weeks.

[The Raven]

and disagree with both of you


What is it that I've said, that you disagree with? It sounds like we are on the same page.


Oh yeah, and who the hell is got boost? :confused:

[White_lightning]

What is it that I've said, that you disagree with? It sounds like we are on the same page.


Oh yeah, and who the hell is got boost? :confused:
you think i read the 3 pages of crap:) i figured that would make it sound like i did:) so shut your pie hole bird man :):)


or im going to start calling you the SQUA!!

[exlude]

I agree and disagree with both of you its 100% person specific. no to bodies react to the same "suppliment" in the 100% same way. I know for a FACT that got boost gets stronger when he is taking creatin.. it doesnt do shit for me no matter how much i take. but for me. if i take glutamine and 4-5g of Vit C.. i get stronger, recover faster and just have more push. Either way. none of them are anablic and none of them will make you gain 35lbs of muscle in a few weeks.

No one is claiming that it will put on muscle for you or have some magical effects.

However, all bodies (except those with certain disorders) use creatine phosphate the same way. Some people, however, have much higher amounts in their muscles to being with...so the supplement would have a minimal affect.

[ruffdaddy]

Damn dude, you're taking the scientific studies to literally....Yes creatine can do this and can do that. But has all of this been approved by the FDA?

[exlude]

The FDA's position is not to rule on how stuff works, but rather if it is safe for consumption. Most of the products currently on the market have been OK'd by the FDA. So about that water absorbtion data...?

[ruffdaddy]

ARe you gonna tell me that creatine doesn't signifgantly increase water absorbtion?

[exlude]

And its not a mispelling....its the wrong word. He uses it more than once. Its just completely ironic!

You're right, your post is fairly ironic.

[exlude]

ARe you gonna tell me that creatine doesn't signifgantly increase water absorbtion?

Where is the evidence that water absorption is it's primary purpose, and not the phosphorylation of ADP as you stated earlier? Back pedaling much?

[ruffdaddy]

oh and go ahead and finish reading the artlice you gathered from wikipedia.... Thats all the proof you need. If you would ahve read the whole thing you would have noticed how much it talks about water retention, and how most of the weight gained is a result of water retention.

And to help you out....wikipedia isn't the most reputable resource in ANYTHING.

[exlude]

oh and go ahead and finish reading the artlice you gathered from wikipedia.... Thats all the proof you need. If you would ahve read the whole thing you would have noticed how much it talks about water retention, and how most of the weight gained is a result of water retention.

And to help you out....wikipedia isn't the most reputable resource in ANYTHING.

Never said it was reputable, I have better books for that. It's just easy to show to you and easy to read. Wouldn't want to confuse you anymore than you already are.

I know creatine makes you retain water, never claimed it doesn't. But claiming water retention as the primary purpose, negates the actual purpose of regeneration of ATP. Either you are just plain stupid and overlooked that, or you were trying to preach to the topic poster with half-facts because you are uninformed.

It's just humorous that when Raven and I state factual information, you call us "unimformed [sic] retards". Sure makes you look like an idiot.

[ruffdaddy]

Where is your evidence that creatines primary purpose is to convert ADP into ATP? Yes you proved that it does that, but is that its primary purpose?

[ruffdaddy]

Maybe it was my wording....Creatine is MOST KNOW for mass gains through water retention.....do you understand now? Was your little hissy fit enjoyable? The guy asked if anyones seen gains and stuff. Did you help him any? Or did you prove a point no one was arguing?

[exlude]

Maybe it was my wording....Creatine is MOST KNOW for mass gains through water retention.....do you understand now? Was your little hissy fit enjoyable? The guy asked if anyones seen gains and stuff. Did you help him any? Or did you prove a point no one was arguing?

Hahaha, back track much? Because when Raven and I claimed that it aided energy...you called us "unimformed [sic] retards". Nice try, dumbshit.

[ruffdaddy]

haha ok....you are a uninformed retard....you gonna bitch about it any more? you're like a little girl. Go ahead and read about what you think creatine is about...i will stick with experience and history. Not an article written on wikipedia.

[exlude]

haha ok....you are a uninformed retard....you gonna bitch about it any more? you're like a little girl. Go ahead and read about what you think creatine is about...i will stick with experience and history. Not an article written on wikipedia.

That's fine. I don't follow just Wikipedia either, like I said...Wikipedia is just dumbed down enough for even you to be able to understand. But the volume of credible references I could give you would simply stupify you further. Be happy with your experience, but be wary of your void of substantial knowledge and your deep lack of information. It's clear you lack much brain power, just be careful trying to assert yourself in the future. Wouldn't want you to look like as much of an idiot as you do on here, everywhere.

[ruffdaddy]

I'm guessing my lack of knowledge explains my abundance of academic scholarships, and my state titles in science competitions. Dumbass....

[The Raven]

Maybe it was my wording....Creatine is MOST KNOW for mass gains through water retention.....do you understand now? Was your little hissy fit enjoyable? The guy asked if anyones seen gains and stuff. Did you help him any? Or did you prove a point no one was arguing?


I've never seen any liturature touting Creatine to be good for gaining lean mass. It's obvious that you personally have a mis-conception about how creatine is to be used, and that is exactly why it didn't live up to expectation for you. You are correct in the fact that it is well known for weight gain due to water retention, which for most people isn't a positive thing. I personally want real weight (lean muscle mass), and don't get excited about a little bloat, and then dissapointed when it's gone and the scale goes back down. I do, however, like the extra couple reps and the ability to keep my intensity a little longer. And though my strength does diminish sligthly when I quit taking creatin, every single time I've taken it, I ended up stronger and a little bigger than I was before starting it. Most of that gain would have been managed without the creatine, but I need a kick in the pants every once in a while to spark a little motivation.

[11secCobra]

holy shit i give up with you retards. I already proved my point...im sorry i didnt provide evidence as to how according to my experience creatine isn't worth the money. What evidence are you wanting dip shit. I see you asking for it but you aren't even saying what you want me to prove. I know what the fucking studies say you jackass. and i knwo they're all overexaggerated and bogus. Like i said...read the bottom of your fittness add and notice the results not typical line. Experience is worth a hell of a lot more than any article or study IMO. But according to exlude...you MUST believe it if its written.

And I call BS 11secCobra...I may be wrong but i really think you're full of shit saying you gained that much just on creatine and protein. Maybe if you started out at 130...and even then i think you're liar. I guess its plausable if you started out as a begginner.

Im through arguing with bill neye over here. Im going to answer your question once more....Creatine will provide more mental support than anything else. From experience...the cost to benefit ratio doesn't match up. Take steroids if you really want to gain. Or if you really want some good stuff take growth hormone.

i dont have anything to prove anything to you bro. at the time i started creatine and protein, i weighed 226. when i was done, i weighed about 260...and still ended up running a bit faster. just some background for you...im 6'3 265, and played D-end/inside linebacker for a D1 football program. you cant tell me anything i dont already know about anything having to do with weightlifting/gaining weight/losing weight. BTW...with some of the comments your making in this thread, it looks like YOUR the beginner. ;)

[Davidm97]

creatine = AAS :rolleyes: DUH!!!