Banning Christmas - Intolerant Much?

[The Pixie]

There are so many people trying to get rid of Christmas. Stores banning their employees saying "Merry Christmas". City Councils banning the use of manger scenes on city grounds. Schools not allowing children to bring anything relating to the true meaning of Christmas to class. These are the same people who whine about how much Christians are "intolerant". Seems like they're the ones being intolerant. Maybe those who celebrate Christmas shouldn't buy their Christmas gifts from any of these stores that are banning it. Take Halloween and the history of it. No one seems to be banning children in public schools being able to color witches, vampires, or ghosts. Does anyone else see the double standard on opposing Christmas and the "intolerance" associated with it?

Anyway...... MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

[RyanB]

"Merry Christmas" is not politically correct nowadays. "Happy Holidays" is. Tet, Hanukah, Christmas are all around the same time. Just because it is your holy-gift giving-day doesn't mean it is everyones. It isn't a knock on Christmas it is an eye opener to the fact that there are other religions in the world than Christianity.

BTW, Halloween isn't celebrated in many countries. Some countries do however celebrate the Day of the Dead, which is November 1st.

[kangol]

Take Halloween and the history of it. No one seems to be banning children in public schools being able to color witches, vampires, or ghosts.

Halloween may be not the best example to prove your point.

Halloween has been replaced with harvest festivals in many schools and workplaces because some view it as a quasi-religious holiday.

[Whitebread]

I think it is a knock on Christmas, and God and Christianity in general...

LOL@people worshiping something to do with Halloween!!!

Fuck politically correct...... :D

[The Pixie]

"Merry Christmas" is not politically correct nowadays. "Happy Holidays" is. Tet, Hanukah, Christmas are all around the same time. Just because it is your holy-gift giving-day doesn't mean it is everyones. It isn't a knock on Christmas it is an eye opener to the fact that there are other religions in the world than Christianity.

BTW, Halloween isn't celebrated in many countries. Some countries do however celebrate the Day of the Dead, which is November 1st.

I understand that there are other religions in the world than Christianity and I respect their freedom to have their own belief. However, my argument is that there are many people who celebrate Christmas who aren't Christians and that banning the meaning of a holiday but celebrating it is odd to say the least. Another argument is that these companies are dictating what their employees are allowed to say irrespective of their beliefs. Just my $0.02.

[The Pixie]

Halloween may be not the best example to prove your point.

Halloween has been replaced with harvest festivals in many schools and workplaces because some view it as a quasi-religious holiday.

You are right.... it seems that just recently people are replacing "Halloween" with fall/harvest fests. And I'm not saying that people who celebrate Halloween are wrong. I even allow my son to dress up and trick 'r treat. I used the argument of Halloween because he did come home from school with coloring pictures of witches, vampires, haunted houses, etc. but I know he won't be coming home from school with pictures of the baby Jesus or pictures of the menorah or dreidel for that matter.

[DarkWolf]

Take Halloween and the history of it. No one seems to be banning children in public schools being able to color witches, vampires, or ghosts. Does anyone else see the double standard on opposing Christmas and the "intolerance" associated with it?

If you want to get into the history of these holidays... might wanna check your info on Christmas.

Hell... throw Easter, Valentines Day, and Candelmas into your list of "Christian" holidays and where they originated from as well. I'll give ya some hints: Christmas = Yule, Easter = Ostara, Valentines Day = Lupercalia, Candlemas = Imbolc.

Oh yeah... and Fall Festival = Halloween = Samhain (pronounced Sow-in or Sah-ween), which is traditionally celebrated as the new year, the end of summer and beginning of winter. It was believed that the barrier seperating the world of the living, from the world of the dead, was thinnest at this time of the year. Rituals were practiced to both strengthen the barriers in order to keep evil spirits at bay, and the use of various foods as an offering to the good spirits so that they may continue to watch over the community in the coming year. If you didn't leave an offering, it was believed you would be plagued by bad luck through the year. Thus the origins of "Trick or Treat". This was also a time when the spirits of loved ones that passed away during the year were guided by candles into the otherworld... thus the origins of the term "follow the light" or "go into the light"

Is it evil to celebrate your loved ones? Is it evil to help guide them to the otherworld (or Heaven if you want to apply Christian words to it)? Is it evil to perform rituals to keep evil spirits at bay (hey now, guess that makes exorcism's inherently evil then, yah?)? Is it evil to make offerings to the good spirits to watch over the community (does that make praying evil? What about when early Christians and Jews made offerings to God?)

You really should try to learn what you're talking about, when you make brash statements like "Halloween is evil" or "Christmas is a Christian holiday"...

Have fun :D

[TexasDevilDog]

"Merry Christmas" is not politically correct nowadays. "Happy Holidays" is. Tet, Hanukah, Christmas are all around the same time. Just because it is your holy-gift giving-day doesn't mean it is everyones. It isn't a knock on Christmas it is an eye opener to the fact that there are other religions in the world than Christianity.

BTW, Halloween isn't celebrated in many countries. Some countries do however celebrate the Day of the Dead, which is November 1st.

Tet is Vietnamese new year in February, not even near Christmas. :confused:

Yes Pixie, some people are intolerant. Christ is the reason for Christmas and many people would like to not be reminded of that fact. Their hate for Christianity is so great that they would rather get rid of Christmas, than to have to say Merry Christmas to someone. The people that hate Christmas would be the first to complain if they had to work Dec 25th, even though they are not Christians.

I have a Jewish friend, out of respect he wishes me a Merry Christmas, I return the respect by wishing him Happy Hanukah. He doesn't say Merry Christmas because he wants to be non-PC.

At work for Chinese New Year (tet), I give out lucky money envelopes to my younger co-workers out of respect for their culture. I don't tell them happy Feb 9th, or what ever day it comes on. :rolleyes:

[The Pixie]

If you want to get into the history of these holidays... might wanna check your info on Christmas.

Hell... throw Easter, Valentines Day, and Candelmas into your list of "Christian" holidays and where they originated from as well. I'll give ya some hints: Christmas = Yule, Easter = Ostara, Valentines Day = Lupercalia, Candlemas = Imbolc.

Oh yeah... and Fall Festival = Halloween = Samhain (pronounced Sow-in or Sah-ween), which is traditionally celebrated as the new year, the end of summer and beginning of winter. It was believed that the barrier seperating the world of the living, from the world of the dead, was thinnest at this time of the year. Rituals were practiced to both strengthen the barriers in order to keep evil spirits at bay, and the use of various foods as an offering to the good spirits so that they may continue to watch over the community in the coming year. If you didn't leave an offering, it was believed you would be plagued by bad luck through the year. Thus the origins of "Trick or Treat". This was also a time when the spirits of loved ones that passed away during the year were guided by candles into the otherworld... thus the origins of the term "follow the light" or "go into the light"

Is it evil to celebrate your loved ones? Is it evil to help guide them to the otherworld (or Heaven if you want to apply Christian words to it)? Is it evil to perform rituals to keep evil spirits at bay (hey now, guess that makes exorcism's inherently evil then, yah?)? Is it evil to make offerings to the good spirits to watch over the community (does that make praying evil? What about when early Christians and Jews made offerings to God?)

You really should try to learn what you're talking about, when you make brash statements like "Halloween is evil" or "Christmas is a Christian holiday"...

Have fun :D


To begin with, I realize that I probably cannot alter your stance, nor can you alter mine. However, I do believe that open and intelligent discussion is healthy.
Let me say that I believe many people's apparent disdain for Christianity is not so much against Christianity itself as it is against how Christianity has been poorly represented by certain individuals or groups. Genuine Christianity proclaims a belief in Jesus, who taught us to "do unto others as we would have others do unto us," and "love your enemies," and "forgive one another," etc. We believe in a Jesus who died for us because all of us are sinful and imperfect. So, whenever those who profess to be Christian behave with hatred, etc., they are not accurately portraying Jesus.
Anyway, even as I share the following, I am not doing so in disdain, but as an attempt to present my stance. Regarding the history of the celebration of Christmas, I am aware of the suggestions that Dec. 25th may have been a time of pagan celebrations, and that it probably was not the actual time of the birth of Jesus. However, Christians do celebrate the birth of Christ, although it probably was not Dec. 25th. The actual date is not the issue. I don't know what you mean when you seem to imply that Christmas is not a "Christian holiday."
Part of my position is that there is an ever-increasing attempt by some not to treat all religions equally, but to target Christianity specifically. Also, part of what I was referring to regarding the inconsistency of forbidding anything Christian in the schools while promoting things such as Halloween, is the fact that both have religious backgrounds. Why throw out Christmas while allowing Halloween, which also has religious backgrounds? Believe it or not, even atheism is a religious belief.
You seemed to imply that you believe in a spiritual reality. If so, upon what do you base your beliefs? To adopt a so-called "ecclectic" approach really makes no sense, because since the different beliefs contradict each other they cannot all be true. So, either they all are false, or one of them is true. I personally believe the teachings of the Bible to be true. On the other hand, if you do not believe in God, or anything spiritual, then surely I am not a threat to you.
Actually, I would encourage you to search out the true teachings of the Word of God, rather than making your judgements based on what you have heard or experienced from others.

May God Bless

[RyanB]

Tet is Vietnamese new year in February, not even near Christmas. :confused:



At work for Chinese New Year (tet), I give out lucky money envelopes to my younger co-workers out of respect for their culture. I don't tell them happy Feb 9th, or what ever day it comes on. :rolleyes:

I was just pointing out that many people (on a national scale) celebrate something that many Americans aren't even aware of.

Christmas=Christ and therefore companies that have direct personal interface (say waiting tables) have to instruct their employees that Merry Xmas doens't have the same meaning to everyone, and that Happy Holidays is more correct.

It's cool that you give out soemthing ( I presume in a red envelope) for other people. I had a 2nd grade teacher do that and I haven't had another adult (who wasnt Asian) ever even acknowlegde the day.

[DarkWolf]

To begin with, I realize that I probably cannot alter your stance, nor can you alter mine. However, I do believe that open and intelligent discussion is healthy.
Let me say that I believe many people's apparent disdain for Christianity is not so much against Christianity itself as it is against how Christianity has been poorly represented by certain individuals or groups. Genuine Christianity proclaims a belief in Jesus, who taught us to "do unto others as we would have others do unto us," and "love your enemies," and "forgive one another," etc. We believe in a Jesus who died for us because all of us are sinful and imperfect. So, whenever those who profess to be Christian behave with hatred, etc., they are not accurately portraying Jesus.
Anyway, even as I share the following, I am not doing so in disdain, but as an attempt to present my stance. Regarding the history of the celebration of Christmas, I am aware of the suggestions that Dec. 25th may have been a time of pagan celebrations, and that it probably was not the actual time of the birth of Jesus. However, Christians do celebrate the birth of Christ, although it probably was not Dec. 25th. The actual date is not the issue. I don't know what you mean when you seem to imply that Christmas is not a "Christian holiday."
Part of my position is that there is an ever-increasing attempt by some not to treat all religions equally, but to target Christianity specifically. Also, part of what I was referring to regarding the inconsistency of forbidding anything Christian in the schools while promoting things such as Halloween, is the fact that both have religious backgrounds. Why throw out Christmas while allowing Halloween, which also has religious backgrounds? Believe it or not, even atheism is a religious belief.
You seemed to imply that you believe in a spiritual reality. If so, upon what do you base your beliefs? To adopt a so-called "ecclectic" approach really makes no sense, because since the different beliefs contradict each other they cannot all be true. So, either they all are false, or one of them is true. I personally believe the teachings of the Bible to be true. On the other hand, if you do not believe in God, or anything spiritual, then surely I am not a threat to you.
Actually, I would encourage you to search out the true teachings of the Word of God, rather than making your judgements based on what you have heard or experienced from others.

May God Bless

I say Christmas isn't a Christian holiday, because all of the symbolism is pagan in origin... the christmas tree, the yule log, wreathes, Santa, candy canes... all pagan symbols for Yule, the original name of winter solstice (around December 22 - 25). Christ was shoehorned into the holiday, to create Christmas, by the church in order to try and persuade pagans to leave their old religions, and convert to Christianity. Other pagan holidays were treated with the same contempt. The church felt it would be easier for pagans to accept Christianity, if they could still celebrate their traditional holidays/festivals/harvests.

As for what I believe, I won't go into length here, though you're certainly welcome to search this forum as I've gone over it fairly extensively in the past :) I do believe in God. I don't believe the Bible to be 100% infallible, rather I believe the Bible to be more a moral guide. And, if you do a little research on other religions, you'll find they actually don't contradict each other... at least not their core message. The cultural differences may conflict at minor points, but at their core, they are the same.

[poopnut2]

I'm good as long as I get some presents.

The meaning of christmas, whether it be true or not, was lost long ago.

[kal-el]

I'm good as long as I get some presents.

The meaning of christmas, whether it be true or not, was lost long ago.

agreed %100 poopnut

just like kids can't pray in school but they can read a bible in prison. :confused:

[BigJirish08]

I say Christmas isn't a Christian holiday, because all of the symbolism is pagan in origin... the christmas tree, the yule log, wreathes, Santa, candy canes... all pagan symbols for Yule, the original name of winter solstice (around December 22 - 25). Christ was shoehorned into the holiday, to create Christmas, by the church in order to try and persuade pagans to leave their old religions, and convert to Christianity. Other pagan holidays were treated with the same contempt. The church felt it would be easier for pagans to accept Christianity, if they could still celebrate their traditional holidays/festivals/harvests.

As for what I believe, I won't go into length here, though you're certainly welcome to search this forum as I've gone over it fairly extensively in the past :) I do believe in God. I don't believe the Bible to be 100% infallible, rather I believe the Bible to be more a moral guide. And, if you do a little research on other religions, you'll find they actually don't contradict each other... at least not their core message. The cultural differences may conflict at minor points, but at their core, they are the same.

i agree with you partially, the 3 biggest religions all came from the same part of the world: judaism, islam, and christianity. they are all mono-theistic. i cant sit back and think it just randomly happened like that. however, christianity is different because ever since its existence it has revolved around love benevolence and evangelism. yes people can convert to become jewish but they are not REALLY jewish. same with islam. REAL muslims are born into the religion. christianity is open for anyone regardless of background. even hinduism until recently was very strict on hindus had to be born into the religion. no offense but this country was founded on christian principals and yes its changing but our country is mostly christian, i know islam is growing rapidly. i respect other cultures and their beliefs so why should mine me removed or changed just because i belong to a majority? if someone wants to wish me happy kwanza or merry tet or whatever other holiday good for them i dont care. they're just making a nice gesture even tho they prolly know i dont celebrate it. im tired of christian whites being looked to as the "bad guys" or "the man" its really fucking rediculous. christmas is about benevolence and happiness and spending time with families.

[poopnut2]

christmas is about benevolence and happiness and spending time with families.

No it's not. It's about presents. What's a birthday without presents? Just another day.

[TexasDevilDog]

No it's not. It's about presents. What's a birthday without presents? Just another day.

To me, Christmas is the day, set aside by the church to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Which day it is, is as important to me as the skin color of Jesus.

[poopnut2]

To me, Christmas is the day, set aside by the church to celebrate presents.

Finally we agree on something.

[White trash wagon]

Christmas would never be "banned" here, there's WAY too much money to be made from Christmas. Walmart would never allow Christmas to be banned! The PC answer is that Christmas is a sacred religious holiday, but in reality it's an orgy of consumerism that makes the mass merchandisers BILLIONs of dollars. :D

Scott

[90dfw]

People need to stop being such pussies and letting their feelings get hurt so easy.I wore a T-shirt to work one day ( i was off that day) That had a picture of a pigs head on the front left pocket.It was a shirt thats was from a local BBQ joint.Someone complained that it offended them becasue they are jewish...The shirt had a pig on the front and on the back it gave the address and name of the place.How the hell is that offensive????

If somebody walks up to me and says happy hanaka(sp but i dont care) im not going to get my feelings hurt.I am so sick and tired of everybody in this country wanting to change our ways of life to suit the lifes of people from other countries.Pretty soon its going to be illegal to tell someone HELLO becuase it has the word HELL in it and might offend someone....
GROW SOME BALLS,Stop being pussies america.

[TexasDevilDog]

Free speach or freedoms in general are going to be offensive. If nothing was offensive, you wouldn't need protection of free speach.

[exlude]

There are so many people trying to get rid of Christmas. Stores banning their employees saying "Merry Christmas". City Councils banning the use of manger scenes on city grounds. Schools not allowing children to bring anything relating to the true meaning of Christmas to class. These are the same people who whine about how much Christians are "intolerant". Seems like they're the ones being intolerant. Maybe those who celebrate Christmas shouldn't buy their Christmas gifts from any of these stores that are banning it. Take Halloween and the history of it. No one seems to be banning children in public schools being able to color witches, vampires, or ghosts. Does anyone else see the double standard on opposing Christmas and the "intolerance" associated with it?

Anyway...... MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

Who's banning Christmas? Are these stores telling their employees that they cannot partake in Christmas on their own time?

Or is it that these stores are trying not to market a holiday season towards one religious group?

[Mustang Gal]

Who's banning Christmas? Are these stores telling their employees that they cannot partake in Christmas on their own time?

Or is it that these stores are trying not to market a holiday season towards one religious group?


I think the point is that the employees are not allowed to say Merry Christmas at all... despite their own personal belief. Am I going to be banned for saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes?

[DarkWolf]

I think the point is that the employees are not allowed to say Merry Christmas at all... despite their own personal belief. Am I going to be banned for saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes?

I think you missed his point.

[poopnut2]

I think the point is that the employees are not allowed to say Merry Christmas at all... despite their own personal belief. Am I going to be banned for saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes?

If someone said "Allah bless you" you'd probably look at them weird.

[exlude]

I think the point is that the employees are not allowed to say Merry Christmas at all... despite their own personal belief. Am I going to be banned for saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes?

You can chant Merry Christmas all you want...on your own time.

[Mattica]

Who's banning Christmas? Are these stores telling their employees that they cannot partake in Christmas on their own time?

Or is it that these stores are trying not to market a holiday season towards one religious group?

Um, these stores are telling their employees to market Kwanza not Christmas to their customers.....go into your local Wells Fargo and you will see what I'm talking about.

It's not just about Christmas. It's about getting rid of Christians. The extreme left won't have their way until Christians are isolated and kept silent.

I think it's hilarious that someone can be "offended" by the phrase Merry Christmas. It's like, only things that Christians do are offensive. The fact that people want to hijack this holiday offends me. Oh well, the retail community can ban Christmas from their stores. We'll see how the nation responds.

[poopnut2]

Um, these stores are telling their employees to market Kwanza not Christmas to their customers.....go into your local Wells Fargo and you will see what I'm talking about.

It's not just about Christmas. It's about getting rid of Christians. The extreme left won't have their way until Christians are isolated and kept silent.

I think it's hilarious that someone can be "offended" by the phrase Merry Christmas. It's like, only things that Christians do are offensive. The fact that people want to hijack this holiday offends me. Oh well, the retail community can ban Christmas from their stores. We'll see how the nation responds.

I've yet had one person tell me Happy Kwanza or see anything that relates to Kwanza...anywhere. Given, I haven't visited my local Kwanza store. Stores aren't trying to get rid of christmas, they're trying to keep from being sued. Because unfortunately, people will sue for anything these days and why? Because they have a good shot of winning.

[Mustang Gal]

Um, these stores are telling their employees to market Kwanza not Christmas to their customers.....go into your local Wells Fargo and you will see what I'm talking about.

It's not just about Christmas. It's about getting rid of Christians. The extreme left won't have their way until Christians are isolated and kept silent.

I think it's hilarious that someone can be "offended" by the phrase Merry Christmas. It's like, only things that Christians do are offensive. The fact that people want to hijack this holiday offends me. Oh well, the retail community can ban Christmas from their stores. We'll see how the nation responds.


Exactly

[Mustang Gal]

If someone said "Allah bless you" you'd probably look at them weird.


I can only speak for myself but I wouldn't be offended or "look at them weird" at all. They are free to express their belief system all they want. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the suppression of Christianity that seems to be happening in the world today. I think that is what The Pixie was trying to say. :p

[DarkWolf]

And the self-appointed martyr's cry out in vain against the imagined injustices of the retail industry.

Spouting prejudice, oppression, suppression, and censorship among other wrongs... yet they've no problem with their own transgressions.

After years of book bannings in public libraries, movie protests, gay and abortion clinic picketing ... and beatings ... and bombings ... a few retail outlets say "in an effort to be as politically correct in this rapidly changing quasi-political world, we shall say happy holidays, instead of merry christmas, since christmas isn't the only holiday during this season" ... FOUL they cry, expounding non-existant affronts to the very foundation of their beliefs. Foul they cry, drums beating as they rally the troops to "fight the good fight" because christianity itself is under attack!

:rolleyes:

[The Pixie]

I apologize if I have offended some of you with this thread. My main point is exactly what Mustang Gal said.... the suppression of Christianity. I do understand that Christianity is not the only belief system in America, but correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't heard of anywhere banning their employees saying "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy Hanukkah". I'm not sure of the exact statistics, but I would say that the majority of Americans are Christian. However, it seems that Christians are the ones being silenced. I'm proud to be a Christian and I will say "Merry Christmas" proudly, just as I would hope that a Jew would say "Happy Hanukkah" proudly. Everyone is so afraid of offending or even getting offended. I think that we should be able to respect one another instead of suppressing one another.

[The Pixie]

And the self-appointed martyr's cry out in vain against the imagined injustices of the retail industry.

Spouting prejudice, oppression, suppression, and censorship among other wrongs... yet they've no problem with their own transgressions.

After years of book bannings in public libraries, movie protests, gay and abortion clinic picketing ... and beatings ... and bombings ... a few retail outlets say "in an effort to be as politically correct in this rapidly changing quasi-political world, we shall say happy holidays, instead of merry christmas, since christmas isn't the only holiday during this season" ... FOUL they cry, expounding non-existant affronts to the very foundation of their beliefs. Foul they cry, drums beating as they rally the troops to "fight the good fight" because christianity itself is under attack!

:rolleyes:

Is it wrong to stand up for your belief? Seems to me that you're standing up for yours. And yes... you're right. Christians have been known to beat and bomb, but that is not the Christian way. I'm not saying that Christians are perfect and everything we do is right. Don't let actions of some Christians make us all look bad. A lot of times when Christianity is brought up, people remember the bad things that have happened and not the good.

[Casper]

I haven't heard of anywhere banning their employees saying "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy Hanukkah".

And where is anyone banning "Merry Christmas"? Unless you mean by default, which also includes not saying "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy Hanukkah" as well.

You certainly won't offend me if you say "Merry Christmas" when you hand me my change. But some Christians feel that this is not appropriate (JWs), and WAY too many non-Christians get all worked up about this piddly stuff IMO. I'm more concerned with the attempts to pass off Gnosticism as science than I am with how someone chooses to be polite to me.

[poopnut2]

Ok, your main concern is the supression of christianity. What about all the other peoples who's religion is being surpressed because the large majority of people here are "christians"? You can't make everyone happy.

[TexasDevilDog]

Christmas is a religious holiday for 85% of the people in the USA, a secular holiday for another 10% of people. No one can ban Christmas. That would work as well as the Soviets making everyone atheist. It didn't work.

There is no constitution protection or divide between church and business. People can run their business as they see fit. If they don't won't their employees to say or do certain things, they should have that right. If a business for example, Lowe's, puts out holiday trees instead of Christmas trees they have that right. Then people write and call complaining that they will not shop at their store, then the business can ignore their customers or making them happy.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47634

One day after a WorldNetDaily story brought national exposure, the home-improvement retailer Lowe's dropped references to "Holiday Trees" in favor of "Christmas Trees" only.
I don't know any business that would in their right mind try to alienate 85% of their customers during their religious holiday. It happens every time at this season. We are starting to see a big ground swell of the silent majority, just like the 2000, 20004 elections and how critics said Passion of the Christ would flop. The secular world has been pressing too much on the christian majority and they will start pressing back.

[DarkWolf]

Is it wrong to stand up for your belief? Seems to me that you're standing up for yours. And yes... you're right. Christians have been known to beat and bomb, but that is not the Christian way. I'm not saying that Christians are perfect and everything we do is right. Don't let actions of some Christians make us all look bad. A lot of times when Christianity is brought up, people remember the bad things that have happened and not the good.

It's not wrong to stand up for your beliefs... but you're making this out to be an affront to christianity, when in actuality it's a retail outlet's attempt to combine all the various holiday's of the season into one, by saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas". It's not banning christianity, it's appealing to the masses.

Now, if said outlet required their employee's to say "happy kwanza" or "happy hannuhka"(sp), instead of "merry christmas"... then you might have a point to validate your argument.

As it stands, you don't.

[White trash wagon]

Christmas is a religious holiday for 85% of the people in the USA, a secular holiday for another 10% of people. No one can ban Christmas. That would work as well as the Soviets making everyone atheist. It didn't work.

Ask a group of 8 years olds what Christmas means to them and see if thier first response is "it's the day Jesus was born". I bet it won't be 85% of them

Try it with 12 year olds and even 17 yeas olds, I don't think you'll hit 85%.

Hell, ask a group of 30 year olds, I still think you'll hit 85% viewing it as a religious holiday.

Scott

[The Pixie]

Ask a group of 8 years olds what Christmas means to them and see if thier first response is "it's the day Jesus was born". I bet it won't be 85% of them

Try it with 12 year olds and even 17 yeas olds, I don't think you'll hit 85%.

Hell, ask a group of 30 year olds, I still think you'll hit 85% viewing it as a religious holiday.

Scott


My 7 year old knows exactly what Christmas is about. Don't get me wrong though.... he does love the presents :p

[The Pixie]

It's not wrong to stand up for your beliefs... but you're making this out to be an affront to christianity, when in actuality it's a retail outlet's attempt to combine all the various holiday's of the season into one, by saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas". It's not banning christianity, it's appealing to the masses.

Now, if said outlet required their employee's to say "happy kwanza" or "happy hannuhka"(sp), instead of "merry christmas"... then you might have a point to validate your argument.

As it stands, you don't.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it was appealing to the masses, wouldn't they want to keep "Merry Christmas". Seems to me that most people do celebrate Christmas. Maybe I am wrong... I don't know, but I honestly have no problem with them saying "Happy Kwanzaa", "Happy Hannukah", "Season's Greetings", "Happy Holidays", etc. From what I've seen on the news, internet, newspapers, etc., "Merry Christmas" is the ONLY reference to the holidays that they're wanting to get rid of. Not Kwanzaa, Hannukah, or any other religious holiday that comes this time of year. Again... I respect that there are other religions and not everyone celebrates Christmas, however, it IS the most celebrated holiday around this time and yet it's the only one being targeted. I can see that trying to get my point across is futile. I'm just thankful that I don't work in retail and don't have to worry about offending someone when I do tell them "Merry Christmas"

I do wish everyone
Happy Holidays
Happy Hannukah
Happy Kwanzaa
Season's Greetings
and yes, even MERRY CHRISTMAS

And my deepest apologies if I left someone out or offended you :)

[TexasDevilDog]

Ask a group of 8 years olds what Christmas means to them and see if thier first response is "it's the day Jesus was born". I bet it won't be 85% of them

Try it with 12 year olds and even 17 yeas olds, I don't think you'll hit 85%.

Hell, ask a group of 30 year olds, I still think you'll hit 85% viewing it as a religious holiday.

Scott

Well, those 8 year olds, or even the 12 and 17 can vote with their pocket book too and not buy christmas trees. ;)

[poopnut2]

Ask a group of 8 years olds what Christmas means to them and see if thier first response is "it's the day Jesus was born". I bet it won't be 85% of them

Try it with 12 year olds and even 17 yeas olds, I don't think you'll hit 85%.

Hell, ask a group of 30 year olds, I still think you'll hit 85% viewing it as a religious holiday.

Scott


Ever see "supersize me" where more kids could identify Ronald McDonald than Jesus Christ? People these days consider theirselves religious if they go to church every once in a while. People that go to church every Sunday automatically consider themselves devout christians.

I remember a while back when my parents told me that Easter wasn't as important as christmas and that's why our family doesn't make as big of a deal about it and they consider themselves christians.

[TexasDevilDog]

Ever see "supersize me" where more kids could identify Ronald McDonald than Jesus Christ?

It was due to them showing a picture of a white jesus.

[Mattica]

I've yet had one person tell me Happy Kwanza or see anything that relates to Kwanza...anywhere. Given, I haven't visited my local Kwanza store. Stores aren't trying to get rid of christmas, they're trying to keep from being sued. Because unfortunately, people will sue for anything these days and why? Because they have a good shot of winning.

Wells Fargo has a habbit of supporting extreme left ideals. I used to work there. In gay pride month we were shipped marketing material that said "Wells Fargo Supports Gay Marriage". Same thing with the Christmas policy. Maybe there are some companies that are afraid of being sued for supporting Christmas. But the fact of the matter is, they can't be sued. The ony retaliation is people quit buying their goods. Which is exactly what has happened to Target, Home Depot, and a few others in the past two weeks.

[Mattica]

Maybe they should just start a new national holiday.

Happy Rammahannahkwanzamas, because Religion is protected under Title 7, only if you're not a Christian.

[DarkWolf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it was appealing to the masses, wouldn't they want to keep "Merry Christmas". Seems to me that most people do celebrate Christmas. Maybe I am wrong... I don't know, but I honestly have no problem with them saying "Happy Kwanzaa", "Happy Hannukah", "Season's Greetings", "Happy Holidays", etc. From what I've seen on the news, internet, newspapers, etc., "Merry Christmas" is the ONLY reference to the holidays that they're wanting to get rid of. Not Kwanzaa, Hannukah, or any other religious holiday that comes this time of year. Again... I respect that there are other religions and not everyone celebrates Christmas, however, it IS the most celebrated holiday around this time and yet it's the only one being targeted. I can see that trying to get my point across is futile. I'm just thankful that I don't work in retail and don't have to worry about offending someone when I do tell them "Merry Christmas"

I do wish everyone
Happy Holidays
Happy Hannukah
Happy Kwanzaa
Season's Greetings
and yes, even MERRY CHRISTMAS

And my deepest apologies if I left someone out or offended you :)

Probably because Kwanza and Hannukah haven't EVER been included before, and it wasn't until recently that people started demanding Kwanza... and if you're going to include Kwanza, you gotta include Hannukah as well.

So, instead of greeting everyone with "Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanza, and Yuletide Greetings to you!"... or, to avoid the risky nature of trying to determine by sight what "religious" holiday someone might observe... imagine saying Happy Kwanza to a black person that doesn't observe Kwanza... and let's just say for sake of argument that they are also offended by it, and read into it as a racial thing because obviously white people think all black people celebrate Kwanza?

So the rational thing to do, is to just start saying "Happy Holidays", rather than taking 5 minutes to say hello/goodbye to someone as you rattle off all the various holiday greetings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Holidays
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Christmas :rolleyes:

And yet Christ was superimposed on the pagan holiday of Yule to create Christmas... so in all honesty there's no "role of Christ" in Christmas beyond the total fabrication of his birthdate being on that day in an effort to help pagans convert to Christianity by essentially allowing them to continue their traditional practices (practically unchanged, in fact) under a new name.

[TexasDevilDog]

I asked the two black guys in our engineering department, what Kwanzaa was and I got answers like: some black culture thing and I don't know. But they work Martin Luther's birthday day too. :rolleyes:

[Casper]

You forgot "Peaceful Solstice"

[White trash wagon]

I asked the two black guys in our engineering department, what Kwanzaa was and I got answers like: some black culture thing and I don't know. But they work Martin Luther's birthday day too. :rolleyes:\\

Kwanzaa is a holiday that was manufactured in the late 80's, about the same time the NAACP claimed the ancient Egyptians were all black. Egyptian researchers killed that theory almost instantly!

Scott

[White trash wagon]

Well, those 8 year olds, or even the 12 and 17 can vote with their pocket book too and not buy christmas trees. ;)


What part of the bible tells of buying a christmas tree? where is Santa Claus in the bible? North Pole? Elvs? Reindeer?

Scott

[TexasDevilDog]

What part of the bible tells of buying a christmas tree? where is Santa Claus in the bible? North Pole? Elvs? Reindeer?

Scott

Nice tangent, I am starting to think you and 01wc are the same.

[White trash wagon]

I'm just pointing out that Christmas is a sham. Santa Claus, christmas trees, reindeer, elves have nothing do to with the birth of Jesus. Christmas has been highjacked by the merchants, and has been reengineered to bleed americans white during the "holidays". I believe there's even mention in the bible that goes something like" do not take trees into your home and ornamant them".

This so called assault on Christmas is a joke, as christmas has become a joke. Same for Easter, what do bunny's, colored eggs,and candy have to do with Jesus rising from the dead?

Virtually all American holidays have been so commercialized that thier a joke.

Scott

[DarkWolf]

I'm just pointing out that Christmas is a sham. Santa Claus, christmas trees, reindeer, elves have nothing do to with the birth of Jesus. Christmas has been highjacked by the merchants, and has been reengineered to bleed americans white during the "holidays". I believe there's even mention in the bible that goes something like" do not take trees into your home and ornamant them".

This so called assault on Christmas is a joke, as christmas has become a joke. Same for Easter, what do bunny's, colored eggs,and candy have to do with Jesus rising from the dead?

Virtually all American holidays have been so commercialized that thier a joke.

Scott

What do trees, santa, elves, and reindeer have to do with the birth of Jesus? Nothing.

But a lot to do with Yule.

What do bunnys and colored eggs have to do with the resurrection? Nothing.

But a lot to do with Ostara.

You see, the symbolism of the holiday's isn't a comercial product, but instead inherited from the traditional pagan festivals that early christians' hijacked and applied Jesus to, in an effort to convert pagan's to christianity. The irony is the holidays are left almost entirely intact as to how they were traditionally celebrated, so christians are by proxy, practicing pagan traditions by celebrating the various hijacked holidays.

[TexasDevilDog]

I'm just pointing out that Christmas is a sham. Santa Claus, christmas trees, reindeer, elves have nothing do to with the birth of Jesus. Christmas has been highjacked by the merchants, and has been reengineered to bleed americans white during the "holidays". I believe there's even mention in the bible that goes something like" do not take trees into your home and ornamant them".

This so called assault on Christmas is a joke, as christmas has become a joke. Same for Easter, what do bunny's, colored eggs,and candy have to do with Jesus rising from the dead?

Virtually all American holidays have been so commercialized that thier a joke.

Scott

Christmas trees or holiday trees? If holiday trees, then which holiday is it? Like wise, is it a menorah or a candle stick?

Which holiday day is most everyone off from work to celebrate? What holiday did the federal government set aside on the 25th? The federal government called it Christmas, not the holiday day. Our country's culture has a holiday called Chirstmas, originally religous, now expanded to secular.

Christmas is still Christmas to me. Sorry that you don't like Christmas.

[DarkWolf]

Technically, they're Yule trees, but only after they've been decorated, and at the end of the season they're to be set on fire. These traditions generally took place outdoors, but people would bring them indoors by cutting logs from the pine tree's used as Yule trees, and would decorate the logs for the season, and at the end would burn them in their hearth. Yule logs. I'm sure you're familiar with them, they're still around :)

[White trash wagon]

I lived in England when I was a kid. There you cut down the tree the day before christmas & put it up. The day after christmas, you planted it back in the ground.....every once in awhile the tree took root and lived. But 95% of the time they died.

Scott

[Casper]

Technically, they're Yule trees, but only after they've been decorated, and at the end of the season they're to be set on fire. These traditions generally took place outdoors, but people would bring them indoors by cutting logs from the pine tree's used as Yule trees, and would decorate the logs for the season, and at the end would burn them in their hearth. Yule logs. I'm sure you're familiar with them, they're still around :)

Take it further. Odin would appear to people as a burning tree, hence the candles in the tree, later to be replaced by lights. The tree was allso a phallic symbol, as was the wreath. The wreath was generally put on a phallic pole to symbolize sexual union in a fertility ritual.

But then again, you could say that these things get co-opted all the time, hence a christmas tree has EVERYTHING to do with Christmas in North America. As does Santa. Just like the swastika was co-opted by a political group. Just like Jews co-opted the story of the flood. Noah has everything to do with Judaism, yet at one time he was Utnapushtim, part of the babylonian root of Caananite religion. Just like Vedic culture evolved into Aryian culture. Etc.

[TexasDevilDog]

Take it further. Odin would appear to people as a burning tree, hence the candles in the tree, later to be replaced by lights.

They took that idea from the burning bush to ease the conversion of Jews to paganism.

[DarkWolf]

They took that idea from the burning bush to ease the conversion of Jews to paganism.

How do you convert Jews into what they already are?




Yes, I'm aware of your sarcasm.

[Keller]

This country is going straight to hell, we are more worried about saying Merry Christmas, than we are other problems, for one there are more Queers and gays popping up in this country. Are we worried about them, Hell no, we gave them their own day of celebration! It sickens me to no end. We cant say Merry Christmas, but Happy Hannikah or Happy Kwanzikah is oK????

[DarkWolf]

Captain Clueless shows up late for the party!

[Whitebread]

This country is going straight to hell, we are more worried about saying Merry Christmas, than we are other problems, for one there are more Queers and gays popping up in this country. Are we worried about them, Hell no, we gave them their own day of celebration! It sickens me to no end. We cant say Merry Christmas, but Happy Hannikah or Happy Kwanzikah is oK????

LOL, hope you have flame-retardent underwear!!! :eek: YIPES!!!

[The Pixie]

Probably because Kwanza and Hannukah haven't EVER been included before, and it wasn't until recently that people started demanding Kwanza... and if you're going to include Kwanza, you gotta include Hannukah as well.

So, instead of greeting everyone with "Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanza, and Yuletide Greetings to you!"... or, to avoid the risky nature of trying to determine by sight what "religious" holiday someone might observe... imagine saying Happy Kwanza to a black person that doesn't observe Kwanza... and let's just say for sake of argument that they are also offended by it, and read into it as a racial thing because obviously white people think all black people celebrate Kwanza?

So the rational thing to do, is to just start saying "Happy Holidays", rather than taking 5 minutes to say hello/goodbye to someone as you rattle off all the various holiday greetings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Holidays
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Christmas :rolleyes:

And yet Christ was superimposed on the pagan holiday of Yule to create Christmas... so in all honesty there's no "role of Christ" in Christmas beyond the total fabrication of his birthdate being on that day in an effort to help pagans convert to Christianity by essentially allowing them to continue their traditional practices (practically unchanged, in fact) under a new name.

AGAIN... we are never going to see eye to eye on this. I understand what you're saying about saying "Happy Holidays". AGAIN :rolleyes: I have no problem with them saying that. The problem I have is employees being told that they can't say "Merry Christmas" but yet not being told not to say "Happy Kwanzaa". This has been told to me by several friends. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. You can do your internet search and of course find something saying that it's a conspiracy theory. I'm sure I could find sites saying that it's NOT a conspiracy theory. I'm sure you can find somewhere on the internet saying that grass is actually purple. Who can trust media these days?

No, December 25th is probably not the day Christ was born. Most Christians are aware of this. I don't know the exact birthday of my dog, but I have August 14th as the date to go by. Honestly, what does it matter? That is the day the church chose to celebrate it. Maybe the tree, wreaths, or whatever were used by the pagans during their celebration. I don't see what's so wrong about the church bringing a celebration for the Christians to have as a alternative to the pagans. So we use the wreath, the tree, the yule tide..... how is that wrong? Take the cross... it was created for death. Now it is used as a symbol for Christ's unconditional love for you and I. For you to say there's no role of CHRIST in CHRISTMAS is beyond me. I will admit that a lot of people don't remember Him during this time and that saddens me. But to a lot of us, there is still a HUGE roll of Christ during Christmas.

[DarkWolf]

AGAIN... we are never going to see eye to eye on this. I understand what you're saying about saying "Happy Holidays". AGAIN :rolleyes: I have no problem with them saying that. The problem I have is employees being told that they can't say "Merry Christmas" but yet not being told not to say "Happy Kwanzaa". This has been told to me by several friends. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not.

You missed my point entirely. It's not a matter of "You can't say Merry Christmas, but you can say Happy Kwanza or Happy Hannakuh"... it's a matter of other holidays not having official recognition in the past, that now in an effort to include them all, it's "Happy Holidays".

Can you honestly tell me you've ever been in a store and heard the cashier saying "Happy Hannakuh" as they finished their transaction? Unless it was a Jewish oriented store, I seriously doubt it. The reason Kwanza/Hannakuh/etc aren't "banned", is because they've never been included in the first place. No reason to point out the obvious... or maybe there is?

You perceive the change from "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays" as an attack on Christmas, when it simply is not.

As far as using pagan symbols and traditions... I dunno, I could've sworn there's something in the bible speaking against taking any other god than God... oh yeah, it's the 1st commandment. By practicing the pagan traditions, incorporating pagan symbols... unless I missed some decree that made it ok... that constitutes praise (ie: worship) of other god(s), besides God. I believe this constitutes heresy, and excommunication... and death (at one time this included physical death, but now is more in the realm of spiritual death, condemnation to hell, etc).

More power to you, if you're ok with this. I'm just making sure you understand what it is you (and other Christians) are doing, that you feel is so innocent.

[The Pixie]

http://www.iei.net/~doghouse/santahis.htm

No, we are not supposed to worship other gods. Maybe the pagans used the wreath in one way. We use it as a symbol of the crown of thorns that Christ wore. I don't see how this is worshiping other gods.

Look, I acknowledge that you are very well read and I respect that. I'm enjoying this debate and I truly do not intend to anger you. I hope that goes both ways.

[Whitebread]

I think the change to "Happy Holidays" form "Merry Christmas" was not made to include other religions/beliefs. I think it is quite the opposite..

I think it derives from progressive secularists trying to push out the word "God", or anything remotely associated with any religion or "Higher Power", out of society, to where the only acceptable status is athiesm.. That includes Judisam, Christianity, Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan, etc, etc...out of sight, out of mind.

I think you (DW) are correct with the historical facts of how Paganism and Christianity have meshed to come up with the tradition of Christmas. The more I read your posts, the more I understand where you come from and your point of view..But I honestly feel that this movement is not meant at all to be more inclusive; the secular movement, who do not want any moral compass that could be derived from any religion, is behind the movement away from the name "Christmas" not to be inclusive, but to make all religion that much more blurry and obscure to the masses...

Thanks,
Robbie

[DarkWolf]

That's a valid point, but I don't believe this to be the case, as it only seems to be Christians that are up in arms over this issue.

And Pixie, don't misunderstand, I'm not angered by your responses. Just shedding some light on common misconceptions.

[Whitebread]

That's a valid point, but I don't believe this to be the case, as it only seems to be Christians that are up in arms over this issue.

And Pixie, don't misunderstand, I'm not angered by your responses. Just shedding some light on common misconceptions.

I tend to hear more about the fight by athiests to take God, religion, and any religious phrase out of schools/money/holidays/any public display, etc.....pretty much out of the publics' collective "eye"..

At that point, I see Christians coming to the rescue of thier faith and religion and standing up for what they believe...

Robbie

[Whitebread]

Just shedding some light on common misconceptions.

I'll be honest, I had no idea where some of the traditions of Christmas or Easter came from...i'll learn anytime someone will teach!!

Robbie

[The Pixie]

That's a valid point, but I don't believe this to be the case, as it only seems to be Christians that are up in arms over this issue.

And Pixie, don't misunderstand, I'm not angered by your responses. Just shedding some light on common misconceptions.


You do make very good points and I don't know how or why the traditions of Christmas were brought about. I honestly haven't researched it enough. I'm sure the church did change things to attempt to convert the pagans, but I feel that the majority of the church members only did it with love. A good analogy that I heard this past Sunday is that if you see someone driving down the road and you know that the bridge is out you want to do everything in your might to warn them. But the reality is we all have been given free will and whether we believe or not is up to us.

I think the reason that I started this thread is because as a Christian, I am use to being ridiculed and having people try to take Christ away from me. Maybe I did overreact about the whole "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas" issue. I think some store owners may have done it for that reason and some may have done it for the reason you are pushing. I know that Sam Walton would be very sad if he knew how Wal-Mart is being run today.

[DarkWolf]

I tend to hear more about the fight by athiests to take God, religion, and any religious phrase out of schools/money/holidays/any public display, etc.....pretty much out of the publics' collective "eye"..

At that point, I see Christians coming to the rescue of thier faith and religion and standing up for what they believe...

Robbie

That may be. The country was built on Christianity, as much as the forefathers tried to seperate government and religion (I'd suppose, in order to avoid another Vatican or Anglican rule), Christianity still permeates society. In recent times, minority religions have been gaining popularity, enjoying our freedom of religion amendment. I see the current trend as an effort to recognize the other religions, but it could very well be purely secular and an effort to wipe out religion.

It just seems it's the right wing "Bushies", Bill O'Reilly, John Gibson, and Fox News touting this "War on Christmas" notion. I can't say I've seen any evidence of this "de-christmasing" in the places I've been in the past few weeks. Hell, there were Christmas displays and decorations up at Wal-Mart even before Halloween. Even more-so in the malls, Collin Creek and Stonebriar had decorations and displays up before Thanksgiving. Haven't been to Firewheel, even though I'm only like 5 minutes from it.

If anything, it seems like Thanksgiving is becoming the red-headed step child, as I see less and less of it each year, but no shortage of Halloween and Christmas.

[Casper]

They took that idea from the burning bush to ease the conversion of Jews to paganism.

LOL!

[Casper]

...
If anything, it seems like Thanksgiving is becoming the red-headed step child, as I see less and less of it each year, but no shortage of Halloween and Christmas.

Which is a shame, because Thanksgiving is a guaranteed 4-day weekend every year.

What Thanksgiving needs is color coordination. Christmas gets red and green, halloween has evolved purple and orange, easter gets pastels, 4th of july is of course red-white and blue. Valentines is pink & red, St pattys is green.

What we need is a color scheme, and we need it now! Before we lose the bestest holiday scheduling scheme ever devised (always thursday, pure genius!)

[DarkWolf]

Which is a shame, because Thanksgiving is a guaranteed 4-day weekend every year.

What Thanksgiving needs is color coordination. Christmas gets red and green, halloween has evolved purple and orange, easter gets pastels, 4th of july is of course red-white and blue. Valentines is pink & red, St pattys is green.

What we need is a color scheme, and we need it now! Before we lose the bestest holiday scheduling scheme ever devised (always thursday, pure genius!)

I think you might be on to something... Brown and Orange... wtf is up with that?

[Casper]

Cowgirls always play on TG, maybe silver and blue would be a start?

[The Pixie]

That may be. The country was built on Christianity, as much as the forefathers tried to seperate government and religion (I'd suppose, in order to avoid another Vatican or Anglican rule), Christianity still permeates society. In recent times, minority religions have been gaining popularity, enjoying our freedom of religion amendment. I see the current trend as an effort to recognize the other religions, but it could very well be purely secular and an effort to wipe out religion.

It just seems it's the right wing "Bushies", Bill O'Reilly, John Gibson, and Fox News touting this "War on Christmas" notion. I can't say I've seen any evidence of this "de-christmasing" in the places I've been in the past few weeks. Hell, there were Christmas displays and decorations up at Wal-Mart even before Halloween. Even more-so in the malls, Collin Creek and Stonebriar had decorations and displays up before Thanksgiving. Haven't been to Firewheel, even though I'm only like 5 minutes from it.

If anything, it seems like Thanksgiving is becoming the red-headed step child, as I see less and less of it each year, but no shortage of Halloween and Christmas.

Wal-Mart retracted their attempt to take Christmas out because there was so much boycotting going on and they realized that they would probably lose money on the deal.

And I think Thanksgiving should be brown, orange, red and yellow...... colors that the Indians wore :p

[poopnut2]

This country is going straight to hell, we are more worried about saying Merry Christmas, than we are other problems, for one there are more Queers and gays popping up in this country. Are we worried about them, Hell no, we gave them their own day of celebration! It sickens me to no end. We cant say Merry Christmas, but Happy Hannikah or Happy Kwanzikah is oK????

You're a moron. You're actually worried about gay people "popping up"? You're going to hell for judging others. Oh sh!t, now I'm going to hell for saying you're going to hell. Damn, according to christianity, we're all going to hell. Well, might as well be a fudge packing jew. :rolleyes:

[Casper]

I don't mind queers popping up but I sure hate it when gays do it.

:rolleyes:

[The Pixie]

You're a moron. You're actually worried about gay people "popping up"? You're going to hell for judging others. Oh sh!t, now I'm going to hell for saying you're going to hell. Damn, according to christianity, we're all going to hell. Well, might as well be a fudge packing jew. :rolleyes:

Not to stir anything up, but I think it's humorous when people pull the "though shalt not judge" card. That's absolutely right... the Bible does say that we shouldn't judge. Non-Christians point the finger at Christians saying "the bible tells you not to judge". But does that give them a get out of jail free card because they don't follow the bible? Is it ok for non-believers to judge because they don't follow the bible? Just something I've often wondered about.

[poopnut2]

Not to stir anything up, but I think it's humorous when people pull the "though shalt not judge" card. That's absolutely right... the Bible does say that we shouldn't judge. Non-Christians point the finger at Christians saying "the bible tells you not to judge". But does that give them a get out of jail free card because they don't follow the bible? Is it ok for non-believers to judge because they don't follow the bible? Just something I've often wondered about.

That's why I said I'm going to hell. I understand what you mean though. Judging people isn't cool IMO but that's probably because I was raised a christian, even though I'm not one now. From my experience though, it seems the self-proclaimed christians are very quick to judge. Hell, everyone is quick to judge, you would just think that the group that has a law of a diety behind it would respect it a little more.

[Casper]

Not to stir anything up, but I think it's humorous when people pull the "though shalt not judge" card. That's absolutely right... the Bible does say that we shouldn't judge. Non-Christians point the finger at Christians saying "the bible tells you not to judge". But does that give them a get out of jail free card because they don't follow the bible? Is it ok for non-believers to judge because they don't follow the bible? Just something I've often wondered about.

If that were part of their doctrine, then yes, it would be proper and respected.

[TexasDevilDog]

Wal-Mart retracted their attempt to take Christmas out because there was so much boycotting going on and they realized that they would probably lose money on the deal.

And I think Thanksgiving should be brown, orange, red and yellow...... colors that the Indians wore :p

The lastest updated list from Bill O'Reilly looks very well improved.

http://www.billoreilly.com/blog#-893655144949340323

Funny how companies come around when their worship of the dollar is threatened. :D

[The Pixie]

That's why I said I'm going to hell. I understand what you mean though. Judging people isn't cool IMO but that's probably because I was raised a christian, even though I'm not one now. From my experience though, it seems the self-proclaimed christians are very quick to judge. Hell, everyone is quick to judge, you would just think that the group that has a law of a diety behind it would respect it a little more.

I do agree with you.... everyone is quick to judge, even Christians and we should know better. I am guilty as well, although it is something I've been working on. I don't approve of homosexuality, but it's not my place to judge them. I don't condone drug use, but I've had friends that do it. Just because I didn't approve didn't mean that I was being judgemental... at least I don't think so. I just wish that more Christians would react more out of compassion than anger. But that's a whole other can of worms.

[The Pixie]

The lastest updated list from Bill O'Reilly looks very well improved.

http://www.billoreilly.com/blog#-893655144949340323

Funny how companies come around when their worship of the dollar is threatened. :D


Yeah, I saw that earlier today :o

[DarkWolf]

Bill O'Reilly

And now the wizard is revealed.

Where're are my ruby slippers? I wanna go home.

[90dfw]

I lived in England when I was a kid. There you cut down the tree the day before christmas & put it up. The day after christmas, you planted it back in the ground.....every once in awhile the tree took root and lived. But 95% of the time they died.

Scott


Thats kinda cool....That counts as my one new thing to learn today...

[TexasDevilDog]

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16425

2nd Circuit upholds NYC policy on school holiday displays

By The Associated Press
02.06.06
NEW YORK — A federal appeals court panel has upheld a city policy on holiday displays for its schools that allows Santa Claus, reindeer, Christmas trees and symbols of Jewish and Islamic holidays but prohibits Nativity scenes.

The 2-1 ruling in Skoros v. City of New York on Feb. 2 by the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the decision of a lower court judge who found that the city's policy of permitting secular symbols had the desired effect of neither advancing nor inhibiting religion.

Crazy ruling. It is ok to show symbols of Jews and Islam but not Christians? Since when are Jewish and Islamic symbols secular. :confused:

[Fobra]

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16425



Crazy ruling. It is ok to show symbols of Jews and Islam but not Christians? Since when are Jewish and Islamic symbols secular. :confused:

beats me :confused:

[DarkWolf]

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16425



Crazy ruling. It is ok to show symbols of Jews and Islam but not Christians? Since when are Jewish and Islamic symbols secular. :confused:

I think the point of the ruling is to not depict religious symbols.. such as the baby jesus. Islam doesn't really have any symbols, at least none that are inherently religious in nature. The crescent and star is carried over from the Ottoman empire, it itself is not a religious symbol. As for the menorah and draedle, they're part of the symbolism of the season, much like Santa, reign deer, christmas trees, etc. are. They don't represent religious concepts like God or Jesus, and that's the reason why the nativity, which depicts in no uncertain terms, Jesus's birth, is not allowed.

[TexasDevilDog]

Islam doesn't really have any symbols, at least none that are inherently religious in nature.

If islam doesn't have any religous symbols, why would the court allow islamic symbols?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_symbol

[DarkWolf]

If islam doesn't have any religous symbols, why would the court allow islamic symbols?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_symbol

Because the restriction was on religious symbols... not non-religious symbols. The star & crescent is not a religious symbol, so it's allowed.

[TexasDevilDog]

Because the restriction was on religious symbols... not non-religious symbols. The star & crescent is not a religious symbol, so it's allowed.

They said "symbols of Jewish and Islamic". Which part of that is not religious?

[DarkWolf]

Christmas trees and Santa are commonly associated with Christianity. Does that mean they're religious symbols?

[TexasDevilDog]

Christmas trees and Santa are commonly associated with Christianity. Does that mean they're religious symbols?

Nice goalie action.

They said "symbols of Jewish and Islamic". Which part of that is not religious?

[DarkWolf]

Nice goalie action.

They said "symbols of Jewish and Islamic". Which part of that is not religious?

Symbols associated with a faith aren't necessarily religious. What part of that aren't you getting?

[TexasDevilDog]

Symbols associated with a faith aren't necessarily religious. What part of that aren't you getting?

You mean like a christmas tree? Are we going on about the tree is this thread too? We all know the christmas tree isn't anything religous in christianity. :rolleyes:

Did the christmas tree fall on you when you were a child? Get a f-ing life. :rolleyes:

[DarkWolf]

You mean like a christmas tree? Are we going on about the tree is this thread too? We all know the christmas tree isn't anything religous in christianity. :rolleyes:

Did the christmas tree fall on you when you were a child? Get a f-ing life. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah. That's showing some real Christian tolerance and class right there. Good job.

No, really. I expect no less from true God-fearing Christians, like yourself. You do great justice for your religion. You should be proud.

:rolleyes:

[TexasDevilDog]

Oh yeah. That's showing some real Christian tolerance and class right there. Good job.

No, really. I expect no less from true God-fearing Christians, like yourself. You do great justice for your religion. You should be proud.

:rolleyes:

Dude, I am tired of turning cheeks for you. I only have two. You have no respect for my opinion or anyone else's opinion for that matter. You don't want to have a debate of ideas but just want a soap box to shout the same crap at people of your wishy wash, meandering ideas of an omni-utopia religion of all. It is the same in every thread, with all the other people, everyday.

I have read so much of your ranting and the sad thing, I still don't know what you stand for. :( You are able to type so much crap without making any sence, it is amazing.

[D]

If I remember right, "Santa Clause" or Saint Nikolaus (sp?), originated in Russia.

[DarkWolf]

If I remember right, "Santa Clause" or Saint Nikolaus (sp?), originated in Russia.

Norway, and Odin. There's actually no evidence that a St. Nikolaus / Nicholas ever existed outside of being a sort of fairy tale for children.

[DarkWolf]

Dude, I am tired of turning cheeks for you. I only have two. You have no respect for my opinion or anyone else's opinion for that matter. You don't want to have a debate of ideas but just want a soap box to shout the same crap at people of your wishy wash, meandering ideas of an omni-utopia religion of all. It is the same in every thread, with all the other people, everyday.

I have read so much of your ranting and the sad thing, I still don't know what you stand for. :( You are able to type so much crap without making any sence, it is amazing.

How exactly don't you know what I stand for? I've said it numerous times. I don't subscribe to a religion. If you'd spend less time trying to get a rise out of me, and more time actually reading... you might have caught that.

As for the "omni-utopia religion" thing... again, no idea where you gleaned that from my posts. It would seem you're reading, but not bothering to comprehend what you're reading, before you go flying off the handle with a response. If this is in reference to all religions having the same message at their core, it's a trite reference at best. There's no suggestion for "one inclusive religion for all", the point is to illustrate that at their cores all (or nearly) religions are the same... rather than being intolerant of each other, try to find the common ground and coexist. The hatred and intolerance only breeds more hatred and intolerance.

Up until recently, you've been the only one in this forum that's been actively hostile towards not just me, but anyone that doesn't agree with you and/or your beliefs.

[Fobra]

Santa Claus in reality is an Anglicized form of the Dutch name Sinter Klaas, which in turn is a reference to Saint Nicholas. According to tradition, Saint Nick not only lavished gifts on needy children but also valiantly supported the doctrine of the Trinity at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Thus, Christians may legitimately look to Saint Nick as a genuine hero of the faith.

[DarkWolf]

Santa Claus in reality is an Anglicized form of the Dutch name Sinter Klaas, which in turn is a reference to Saint Nicholas. According to tradition, Saint Nick not only lavished gifts on needy children but also valiantly supported the doctrine of the Trinity at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Thus, Christians may legitimately look to Saint Nick as a genuine hero of the faith.

Except there's no evidence he existed. The Russian legend of St. Nick was borrowed from the Norse mythology concerning Odin. The Dutch picked up on the legend of St. Nick, and brought it here where the Coca Cola company, in the early 1900's began their Christmas marketing campaign that has solidified in our minds the "image" of Santa Claus.

The closest connection that can be made in Christianity, is St. Nicholas of Myra, who is said to have given gifts in secret. But beyond that, not much more to link him to the Santa Claus myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas

[D]

I was 30% right. I remember hearing something about it a long time ago.

I'm all for prayer in classrooms, etc. The word "prayer" does not specify religion because all religions pray in one way or another. Most religions revolve around a higher power of some sort, more often than not referred to as a God. I don't find the term "Merry Chirstmas" offensive, degrading, or anything else other than a greeting during the holiday season. This country was founded under Christian principals, is still primarily Christian, and Christian theologies should still be accepted and not put down. We should not be PC just for the likes of the foreigners in America who find the Christian ideology of Christmas offensive. If I walk up to a Jew or a Muslim and say "Merry Christmas" in America, they should not take offense to it at all. Rather, they should accept that this country is primarily Christian and if they don't like it or came here thinking otherwise, they can get the fuck out.