Bunch of Pansy soldiers

[TexasDevilDog]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_unit_investigation_28

GIs Who Refused Job Had Unarmored Trucks

By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. Army Reserve soldiers who refused orders to drive a dangerous route were members of one of a few supply units whose trucks are still unarmored, their commanding general said Sunday

The soldiers, now under investigation, had previously focused on local missions in safer parts of southern Iraq and had never driven a convoy north along the attack-prone roads passing through Baghdad.

"Not all of their trucks are completely armored. In their case, they haven't had the chance to get armored," said Brig. Gen. James E. Chambers, commanding general of 13th Corps Support Command, which sends some 250 convoys ferrying Army fuel, food and ammunition across Iraq each day.

==============

You can disobey an order if you believe that order is not a lawful one, like executing unarmed civilians. You can't disobey because you think you will get hurt. :rolleyes:

[94StangFiveO]

WTF did they join for then, to have a party over there? They are there to serve and need to do the job assigned to them.

[lowthreeohz]

Can't get your job done very well dead...

[94StangFiveO]

Can't get your job done very well dead...


That's the risk they take by volunteering to go over there.

[302_plus_a_few]

Can say I blame them. Their trucks weren't armored like all of the other turcks that make that run. Their trucks were slow compared to the other trucks that make that run. It was a suicide mission and I guess someone spoke up and said so.

[TexasDevilDog]

So in a war zone, if one unit get a new and improved weapon, or a better defensive protection, all other units can opted out.

"Gee sarge, we don't do recon patrols now that we have un-manned drones." ;)

[1990crustang]

its not thier fault, would you rather see the supplys blown up or being used against our guys.. .. but im with you on one point..i cant stand to hear people in the service say " i never thought we'd go to war" WTF!!! some of us would love to go back and get do it again..

[Wario]

WTF did they join for then, to have a party over there? They are there to serve and need to do the job assigned to them.


This is me just assuming you have a job. Lets just say you're at work and for some odd reason a fire broke out. Next thing you know your boss tells you to go in and get his picture of his prize cat. You know if you dont get the picture you are going to be in deap shit possibly get fired(the consequences are much worse for the soldiers). You cant tell me that you would run in and grab the picture, if you do you're so full of shit I can smell it from here!

<--Nick

It's my understanding that our men, our boys sign up to go over there knowing that WE will do everything to keep them out of harms way. We will not send them into a combat situation uneccesarily, and we will not send them in ill-equipped. Are they going into a dangerous situation? Absolutely, and everyone knows that. But we have NO RIGHT to send a soldier into combat with a fucking potato gun and no armor and say 'good luck kid'. I would staunchly refuse as well. They are putting themselves on the line for US for OTHER PEOPLE, and we OWE IT TO THEM to make sure they are safe as they possibly can be in that situation. I can't believe how ungreatful you are to these people while you sit there safely behind your computer.

<--Kiwi

[Wario]

its not thier fault, would you rather see the supplys blown up or being used against our guys.. .. but im with you on one point..i cant stand to hear people in the service say " i never thought we'd go to war" WTF!!! some of us would love to go back and get do it again..

You do understand that most recruiters approach people and say 'Oh, I wouldn't worry about war'. My brother was in the service for four years. He traveled all over, and thank GOD he got out before the shit hit the proverbial fan. Wanna know how they talked him into it? 'Oh you're a musician? We have some of the best schools in the country. Like to travel, we can make it happen, and we'll pay for your school'. When he broached the idea of him being sent into active duty, THEY LAUGHED and told him it would never happen. Especially not to a 'musician'. As for paying for his school, it's been a struggle every step of the way to get the money. And they are still fucking him on it.

[ScottEvil]

so are they getting disciplined?

[SS Junk]

This is me just assuming you have a job. Lets just say you're at work and for some odd reason a fire broke out. Next thing you know your boss tells you to go in and get his picture of his prize cat. You know if you dont get the picture you are going to be in deap shit possibly get fired(the consequences are much worse for the soldiers). You cant tell me that you would run in and grab the picture, if you do you're so full of shit I can smell it from here!

That's the LAMEST god damned scenario I've ever read. Depriving the troops that are in a hot zone of more supplies because of some shitfuck who is only thinking of himself instead of the many he is obligated to help far exceeds that piece of shit you just wrote.
It's my understanding that our men, our boys sign up to go over there knowing that WE will do everything to keep them out of harms way. We will not send them into a combat situation uneccesarily, and we will not send them in ill-equipped. Are they going into a dangerous situation? Absolutely, and everyone knows that. But we have NO RIGHT to send a soldier into combat with a fucking potato gun and no armor and say 'good luck kid'. I would staunchly refuse as well. They are putting themselves on the line for US for OTHER PEOPLE, and we OWE IT TO THEM to make sure they are safe as they possibly can be in that situation. I can't believe how ungreatful you are to these people while you sit there safely behind your computer.

<--Kiwi
And I can't believe how ignorant you are being. Where did you get all your inside information? Were you there when the order was given? Do you know anything specs on the vehicle used other than it was "unarmored"? Were you in the truck when the chickenshit decided to bail on the many troops he was obligated to help? Don't be stupid. As said above... because of these people's actions they have deprived the other troops who ARE IN HARMS WAY! Those boys you speak of have watched enough war movies and played enough sholdier games in their lifetime to know there is a possibility of serving in wartime. I would give them more credit than calling them boys because they are grown up enough to make their own choices whether to serve or not. I would hope to God you could give those who are fighting for this country more credit than to call them boys and using the insinuations that they didn't know what they were getting themselves into.
You do understand that most recruiters approach people and say 'Oh, I wouldn't worry about war'. My brother was in the service for four years. He traveled all over, and thank GOD he got out before the shit hit the proverbial fan. Wanna know how they talked him into it? 'Oh you're a musician? We have some of the best schools in the country. Like to travel, we can make it happen, and we'll pay for your school'. When he broached the idea of him being sent into active duty, THEY LAUGHED and told him it would never happen. Especially not to a 'musician'. As for paying for his school, it's been a struggle every step of the way to get the money. And they are still fucking him on it.
Interesting... I'm not exactly sure what your point is. My best friend is a Gunnery Sergeant. Has been in the Marines for 10 years. He has his own house, just paid cash for an 04 Z06, has a heavily modified '97 Z28 which is paid for and just paid cash for an 02 Dakota. He's done 3 tours so far. He was in Bosnia, Afghanistan and just got back from Haiti. The Marines have paid for all his education and training. Of course, unlike your brother he's still serving and probably will be for life. You can't get something for nothing.

[Wario]

And I can't believe how ignorant you are being. Where did you get all your inside information? Were you there when the order was given? Do you know anything specs on the vehicle used other than it was "unarmored"? Were you in the truck when the chickenshit decided to bail on the many troops he was obligated to help? Don't be stupid. As said above... because of these people's actions they have deprived the other troops who ARE IN HARMS WAY! Those boys you speak of have watched enough war movies and played enough sholdier games in their lifetime to know there is a possibility of serving in wartime. I would give them more credit than calling them boys because they are grown up enough to make their own choices whether to serve or not. I would hope to God you could give those who are fighting for this country more credit than to call them boys and using the insinuations that they didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

And yet, you weren't there either, and know no more than the fact their truck was unamored. How many trucks got through, how many didn't? They weren't left with absolutely nothing, some trucks did go through. The ones that didn't go were the ones that weren't protected.
Like it or not, a vast majority of people over there DIDN'T know what they were getting themselves into. You can't watch a bunch of movies, and play a few wargames, and then consider them experts in the field. There is no training that will fully prepare you. Yes, there are people ove there who are no more than BOYS AND GIRLS, they didn't know they would be shipped off to fight in a war, and we should NOT be sending them into harms way KNOWINGLY. We should be doing all we can to make sure each and every one of them come back.

Intesting... I'm not exactly sure what your point is. My best friend is a Gunnery Sergeant. Has been in the Marines for 10 years. He has his own house, just paid cash for an 04 Z06, has a heavily modified '97 Z28 which is paid for and just paid cash for an 02 Dakota. He's done 3 tours so far. He was in Bosnia, Afghanistan and just got back from Haiti. The Marines have paid for all his education and training. Of course, unlike your brother he's still serving and probably will be for life. You can't get something for nothing.

He was promised that if he served 4 years, he would be compensated, and the GI Bill would pay for part of his education. Not all of it, and that has been understood from the beginning, but he gets a small stipend every month, which helps with his expenses. Your friend has been compensated for his 10 years, and his service. It only seems fair that other people get the same consideration. Or, should you only be compensated while you are active, and the military should tell you 'Oh, that GI Bill thing? Nevermind.'? Unlike your friend, my brother has no desire to be in the military for life, as he has other ambitions. It suits some, and not others. I was not aware that the only people who counted were ones serving the military for life.
Besides that, the point MADE is that most recruiters lure people in by telling them 'Oh, if you join we give you all this, and the likelihood of war is small'. The likelihood was NOT small, and they do try to go back on what they promised to give you. If you've ever been approached by a recruiter, and I know we ALL were in HS, they try to get you to join through any means neccessary.

[Wario]

That's the LAMEST god damned scenario I've ever read. Depriving the troops that are in a hot zone of more supplies because of some shitfuck who is only thinking of himself instead of the many he is obligated to help far exceeds that piece of shit you just wrote.



And many people would say that sending troops in under equiped is LAME.

[94StangFiveO]

This is me just assuming you have a job. Lets just say you're at work and for some odd reason a fire broke out. Next thing you know your boss tells you to go in and get his picture of his prize cat. You know if you dont get the picture you are going to be in deap shit possibly get fired(the consequences are much worse for the soldiers). You cant tell me that you would run in and grab the picture, if you do you're so full of shit I can smell it from here!

<--Nick


Yes, I have a job and no I wouldn't go get the picture. That scenario is irrelevant to the soldiers scenario. I didn't start working to save pictures of cats in fires. I do my job and that's it. If I was to get fired then fuck it, I'd find another job.

[line-em-up]

I understand that they're soldiers and it's their duty, blah, blah, blah. I just hope that some of you incompassionate people have a chance to see someone you love put in a similar situation. Maybe, then, you might look at it differently. Then again, I doubt you really care about anybody but yourselves.

[Wario]

If I was to get fired then fuck it, I'd find another job.


I think that is what the guys in Iraq are saying as well, but what do I know I'm not in iraq with the people in question. In my opinion it is wrong to ask a person to do something he or she is not equipped to do. All I was trying to point out to you was that it is wrong to knowingly put a person in harms way.


And good point Line-em-up.

[Jedi]

I'm not going to judge the soldiers as being pansies because they are over there and I'm not. Armchair quarterbacking a warzone is a bad idea and you should be embarrassed.

They were transporting contaminated fuel.. ie, worthless garbage.

Check that. Highly explosive worthless garbage.

Speed of those convoys is about 20 mph.

Plus, the trucks wern't maintained.well and were prone to breaking down.

After this bruhaha the Army has suspended all operations out of that supply group for an emergency safety review.

There are a few instances where it's being brought out that the soldiers in the field are poorly equipped... that is the real shame. The soldiers are risking their lives already, there is no excuse to just wastefully place additional risk on transporting garbage with zero regard to the cost in human life.

[Wario]

VERY well said Chris.

"Chambers said 80 percent of the 13th Coscom's 4,000 trucks have been fitted with custom steel plate, but some of those in the unit that balked, the 343rd Quartermaster Company, were among the last left unarmored, because the unit's mission normally confines it to a less dangerous part of Iraq

Chambers said the 18 soldiers who refused the mission on Wednesday morning — driving seven fuel tankers from Tallil air base near Nasiriyah to Taji north of Baghdad — also appeared to have also balked at their mission because of the trucks' bad condition."

What I don't understand is WHY they would want to put highly flammable material into a vehicle that is unsafe for that purpose. I know if I were transporting fuel, and something needed so badly, I'd make damned sure my best vehicles were the ones transporting it so that it would make it there safely.

The whole thing just seems so senseless. But again, NOONE here can pass judgement on anyone there, as none of us have a clue as to what happened exactly. I sincerely hope that it was an oversight on the part of the higher ups, and they weren't aware of the vehicles unfitness for such a hazardous mission.

<--Kiwi

[Cooter]

better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

[lowthreeohz]

"Chambers said 80 percent of the 13th Coscom's 4,000 trucks have been fitted with custom steel plate, but some of those in the unit that balked, the 343rd Quartermaster Company, were among the last left unarmored, because the unit's mission normally confines it to a less dangerous part of Iraq


we're talking about 800 unarmored trucks out there? that's a lot of people's brothers, sisters, mom dad etc....

more power to them. They of all people IMO deserve to speak up when they think they're ill supplied at a time of war.

[Hollywood]

Interesting... I'm not exactly sure what your point is. My best friend is a Gunnery Sergeant. Has been in the Marines for 10 years. He has his own house, just paid cash for an 04 Z06, has a heavily modified '97 Z28 which is paid for and just paid cash for an 02 Dakota. He's done 3 tours so far. He was in Bosnia, Afghanistan and just got back from Haiti. The Marines have paid for all his education and training. Of course, unlike your brother he's still serving and probably will be for life. You can't get something for nothing.

Your best friend must be married because I was in the military and still have several friends and family members in ever branch of the military and none of us had enough money to afford a house and vette. The military does not pay well and unless you are an officer.

As for the problems getting the GI Bill, I can atest to that issue. It is a pain in the ass to get your GI Bill and they will do every thing they can to weasel their way out of giving it to you. Got a friend right now that has yet to see a dime.

[SS Junk]

And yet, you weren't there either, and know no more than the fact their truck was unamored. How many trucks got through, how many didn't? They weren't left with absolutely nothing, some trucks did go through. The ones that didn't go were the ones that weren't protected.
:confused:
The 21-vehicle convoy still made the run Wednesday, albeit late.

Like it or not, a vast majority of people over there DIDN'T know what they were getting themselves into.
You know this how? I take it every single solitary soldier over there thought they'd never serve in war? I take it their commanding officers brainwashed them and told them their time would be a picnic? You've gotten this confirmation from all who have served in Iraq? :rolleyes:
You can't watch a bunch of movies, and play a few wargames, and then consider them experts in the field.
You misunderstood me. Let me try to dumb it down for you.... Kids who are familiar with the armed forces know what their primary duty is. With that said any person who enlists is under the sound, mind and body that they could possibliy serve in wartime. Is that better?
There is no training that will fully prepare you. Yes, there are people ove there who are no more than BOYS AND GIRLS, they didn't know they would be shipped off to fight in a war, and we should NOT be sending them into harms way KNOWINGLY.
WTF are you talking about 'KNOWINGLY"? WTF should we do with troops that are trained to fight? It's a God damned war. People die in war. That's a fact.
We should be doing all we can to make sure each and every one of them come back.
In other words we should pull all troops out of Iraq now because our soldiers are dying.... That's compationate. That way we can wait until the terrorist cells which have been discovered to reside in Iraq can grow strong enough to attack us on our soil.. possibly making 9/11 look like a snooze fest. Especially now that the main Iraq terroist cells have declaired allegence to Osama. Now there's a concept........
It's a good thing the soldiers who have fought in wars past did not have this same mentality or America would've been doomed.
He was promised that if he served 4 years, he would be compensated, and the GI Bill would pay for part of his education. Not all of it, and that has been understood from the beginning, but he gets a small stipend every month, which helps with his expenses. Your friend has been compensated for his 10 years, and his service. It only seems fair that other people get the same consideration. Or, should you only be compensated while you are active, and the military should tell you 'Oh, that GI Bill thing? Nevermind.'? Unlike your friend, my brother has no desire to be in the military for life, as he has other ambitions. It suits some, and not others. I was not aware that the only people who counted were ones serving the military for life.
Besides that, the point MADE is that most recruiters lure people in by telling them 'Oh, if you join we give you all this, and the likelihood of war is small'. The likelihood was NOT small, and they do try to go back on what they promised to give you. If you've ever been approached by a recruiter, and I know we ALL were in HS, they try to get you to join through any means neccessary.
Sucks to be him... I just wanted to make it clear that not all people who serve get screwed.
Your best friend must be married because I was in the military and still have several friends and family members in ever branch of the military and none of us had enough money to afford a house and vette. The military does not pay well and unless you are an officer.
He was paid well for his tours. He does come from a double income household. The point being is he is making a very decent living for himself.

[TexasDevilDog]

I understand that they're soldiers and it's their duty, blah, blah, blah. I just hope that some of you incompassionate people have a chance to see someone you love put in a similar situation. Maybe, then, you might look at it differently. Then again, I doubt you really care about anybody but yourselves.

You are one ignorant stupid fucker. Do you think that some of us just fell out of a tree and decided what would be good for the military? Most of us complaining about these wussie boys are veterans. So what the fuck are you talking about?

I was never in a fire fight, but I was in Korea. I was there, looking across the DMZ to the north.

[98COBRA#770]

I think "Jedi" nailed it..........ANYONE that's been in the military knows
the rep for the Gov. over using equipment that's not front line equipment.
In the 80's we where still using duece and halfs from the 60's!

So yea I can believe the supply line got the crap end of the stick! Being
these supplys where not 100% vital the soldiers did what they could!

Maybe not these guys they may have to stand tall before the man but the
guys that follow will have better equipment. Why the press! Uncle Sam
wants to keep those bodys alive I can assure you of that. It's to hard
to replace them.

[Denny]

Our trucks that run those convoys aren't armored. We don't like it, but we still do it because that's what were're here for. Hell, look at my Suburban! Luckily, I wasn't in it at the time :eek:

[Denny]

Don't even get me started on the 18 wheeler drivers. They're the backbone of Iraq's Logistics! Jim (TAMUZ06) is out there on convoys too... I don't hear him complaining (just a little).

[O2BQIK]

I've never been in the military. But I can say this, it's their job. They need to do their job whether or not they think it's unnecessarily dangerous. There are others depending on them.

That said, I agree that they should have the right to make the situation known if they are ill-equipped...but the way to do that is to follow the proper channels, not refuse to go.

[NDSP]

You are one ignorant stupid fucker. Do you think that some of us just fell out of a tree and decided what would be good for the military? Most of us complaining about these wussie boys are veterans. So what the fuck are you talking about?

I was never in a fire fight, but I was in Korea. I was there, looking across the DMZ to the north.
I don't see what he said to get that response from you. But then again knowing what kind of arrogant stupid mother fucker you are, tells me why he got that response from you. You haven't been in that situation, and staring across the DMZ doesn't come close to seeing, smelling, and living with what they are seeing in Iraq.

[TexasDevilDog]

I don't see what he said to get that response from you. But then again knowing what kind of arrogant stupid mother fucker you are, tells me why he got that response from you. You haven't been in that situation, and staring across the DMZ doesn't come close to seeing, smelling, and living with what they are seeing in Iraq.

You are ignant too and I am not going to defend myself to you when you can't even defend your stupid position on partial rip-outs.

[NDSP]

You are ignant too and I am not going to defend myself to you when you can't even defend your stupid position on partial rip-outs.
Defend your position?????????????? All he said was imcompassionate, which is exactly what you are being. And you go off calling him an ignorant stupid fucker.

I didn't continue that discussion on purpose, because arguing with morons is extremely frustrating, and you are a moron and not worth my time. I can't believe I wasting it on you again. I must be glutten.

[TexasDevilDog]

Defend your position?????????????? All he said was imcompassionate, which is exactly what you are being. And you go off calling him an ignorant stupid fucker.

I didn't continue that discussion on purpose, because arguing with morons is extremely frustrating, and you are a moron and not worth my time. I can't believe I wasting it on you again. I must be glutten.

Is that why you keep replying to me?

[line-em-up]

I don't see what he said to get that response from you. But then again knowing what kind of arrogant stupid mother fucker you are, tells me why he got that response from you. You haven't been in that situation, and staring across the DMZ doesn't come close to seeing, smelling, and living with what they are seeing in Iraq.

Thanks for backing me up. I just wanted to make a point. I also started to reply to him but I figured it was useless. Nobody ever wins these arguments.

Also, my brother-in-law spent a while in Korea in the DMZ. He is now in Iraq. He said that being in Korea was like being on vacation compared to Iraq. But, what do I know since I wasn't there.

[Wario]

You are one ignorant stupid fucker.


LMAO at the bible thumper! I'm sure that god you put so much faith in loved that!

You are ignant too and I am not going to defend myself because I cant.



*fixed for ya texasdildodog*

[Sergio]

better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

...

[TexasDevilDog]

LMAO at the bible thumper! I'm sure that god you put so much faith in loved that!




*fixed for ya texasdildodog*

Yep, thou shall not argue.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Wario]

Yep, thou shall not argue.

Thanks for pointing that out.


No I was pointing out the fact that every time a person has a different view then you you fly off the hook and start name calling. Then you talk all that I love Jesus bullshit. :rolleyes: You never back a point up and all you are is talk.

[SlowLX]

Big Deal theyre a bunch of bitches that dive out of their duty. My battery is deploying next summer for a truck company all on volunteers. Not one of our trucks has any armor and there a minimal plans for it, due to our budget. They knew they were going to war when they signed up or the possability of war. If they joined for college they're fuckign retarded and should be pissed on.

[LadyD]

I have a good friend that is over there and he went in knowing that there would be dangers. but they are there and all they can do is their job. For us over here we PRAY that they are safe and and make sure they are remembered on a daily basis. WE are not there. I am sure that there is way more to the story than what we are told by the news.

[TexasDevilDog]

No I was pointing out the fact that every time a person has a different view then you you fly off the hook and start name calling. Then you talk all that I love Jesus bullshit. :rolleyes: You never back a point up and all you are is talk.

You need to come over to the politics forum, where I post in almost everything and point out the name calling.

I did make my point.

Don't whine and cry about not having armour on a vehicle in the rear, when there grunts humping without a vehicle at all and are on the front line everyday. Some truck drivers are going to cry about getting shot at while driving. Well, what about the grunt walking on the front line everyday.

Most civilains probably don't know or will even like it, but the military has to have a command structure and decipline. If decipline breaks down in a combat zone, you'll see more people dieing that just someone driving a truck.

[Michaelb303]

If you haven't been there don't talk about the balls u would have. I agree that the story sounds shitty but none of us are there to know the whole story. If you wanna bitch about the way a soldier does his job then try it yourself. I your not gonna go to war because it's not your cup of tea, Don't bitch about someone else doing a job your too much of a puss to do.
TO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T BEEN TO WAR HAVE NO RESPECT OR GRASP OF THE SITUATION.

[TexasDevilDog]

from Foxnews.com

The mission was later carried out by other soldiers from the 343rd, which has at least 120 soldiers, the military said.

Was the convoy attacked, soldiers attacked and killed because the lack protection? Nope. The soldiers that didn't do the mission, will be looked down on by the other soldiers in the same unit, by not doing their duty. :o

[99SVTour]

This is me just assuming you have a job. Lets just say you're at work and for some odd reason a fire broke out. Next thing you know your boss tells you to go in and get his picture of his prize cat. You know if you dont get the picture you are going to be in deap shit possibly get fired(the consequences are much worse for the soldiers). You cant tell me that you would run in and grab the picture, if you do you're so full of shit I can smell it from here!

<--Nick




That's the worst analogy I have EVER heard, you're comparing supplies our soldiers/contractors need in baghdad to a picture!

[SS Junk]

That's the worst analogy I have EVER heard, you're comparing supplies our soldiers/contractors need in baghdad to a picture!
Caution... simple minds with all the solutions and superior reasoning at work!

[Dolomite]

What you carefully left out that the trucks were deadlined and the jet fuel was contaminated with diesel. It had already been rejected by one base and this mission was to try to pass it on to another.

[Wario]

What you carefully left out that the trucks were deadlined and the jet fuel was contaminated with diesel. It had already been rejected by one base and this mission was to try to pass it on to another.


Thank you!

What was also carefully left out was the fact that all 14 of the persons in question are now back on the job. The army has now said, yeah we fucked up you guys were right. All the equipment in question has now been removed from service. So the way I look at it I win. I'll be the first to admit I'm a simple mind but I was right and you were wrong!

[dan2600]

Can't get your job done very well dead...
Fact is, some of our soldiers are wandering for themselves about the nature of this war...

Wouldnt you?

[SS Junk]

What you carefully left out that the trucks were deadlined and the jet fuel was contaminated with diesel. It had already been rejected by one base and this mission was to try to pass it on to another.
And what you have left out are credible sources to back up these blowhard claims. I have read stories now that claim they refused because of the maintanence needs of the trucks, then it was armor and now I read they tried to talk to their commanding officer for 3 hours to get him to stop the mission because the fuel was contaminated with deisel and they didn't want to be held liable for delivering fuel that would make a helicopter crash. Then I read that the fuel was contaminated with water. I read somewhere else that there has been no decision as of yet whether the GI's will be punished.
Thank you!

What was also carefully left out was the fact that all 14 of the persons in question are now back on the job. The army has now said, yeah we fucked up you guys were right. All the equipment in question has now been removed from service. So the way I look at it I win. I'll be the first to admit I'm a simple mind but I was right and you were wrong!
I was? Where was I wrong? What have I said so far that has been wrong? So what did you win? LOL
I believe your reasoning as to why the GI's refused the mission is because the risk of the mission in unarmored trucks. Now you are claiming victory because of some alleged comments that you found somewhere (I'm not dismissing you pulled them out of your ass) that the Army has admitted to any type of mistake about contaminated fuel. All I have found is that there has been no decision whether or not there will be a punishment and no admittance the fuel was contaminated.
So please.. before claiming how victorious you are come up with some factual information that has content rather than your retarded analogies and estrogen ridden logic. :rolleyes:

[Cobra Commander]

That's the LAMEST god damned scenario I've ever read. Depriving the troops that are in a hot zone of more supplies because of some shitfuck who is only thinking of himself instead of the many he is obligated to help far exceeds that piece of shit you just wrote.

And I can't believe how ignorant you are being. Where did you get all your inside information? Were you there when the order was given? Do you know anything specs on the vehicle used other than it was "unarmored"? Were you in the truck when the chickenshit decided to bail on the many troops he was obligated to help? Don't be stupid. As said above... because of these people's actions they have deprived the other troops who ARE IN HARMS WAY! Those boys you speak of have watched enough war movies and played enough sholdier games in their lifetime to know there is a possibility of serving in wartime. I would give them more credit than calling them boys because they are grown up enough to make their own choices whether to serve or not. I would hope to God you could give those who are fighting for this country more credit than to call them boys and using the insinuations that they didn't know what they were getting themselves into.

Interesting... I'm not exactly sure what your point is. My best friend is a Gunnery Sergeant. Has been in the Marines for 10 years. He has his own house, just paid cash for an 04 Z06, has a heavily modified '97 Z28 which is paid for and just paid cash for an 02 Dakota. He's done 3 tours so far. He was in Bosnia, Afghanistan and just got back from Haiti. The Marines have paid for all his education and training. Of course, unlike your brother he's still serving and probably will be for life. You can't get something for nothing.


You have some very good points, but whats frustrating to a lot of people here is WHY are we in this situation? I have been always told not ask questions that you know you won't like their answers. Dying in war is honorable but dying because you are not prepared is questionable... Its like D-Day and the decision to drop those soldiers off onto Utah beach without any air support. The soldiers were sacraficed because they were not prepared (ie Saving Private Ryan's 1st 15 minutes). I am disappointed that we put our soldiers in this situation in the first place... I wouldn't mind dying but give me a fighting chance :mad:

[SS Junk]

You have some very good points, but whats frustrating to a lot of people here is WHY are we in this situation? I have been always told not ask questions that you know you won't like their answers. Dying in war is honorable but dying because you are not prepared is questionable... Its like D-Day and the decision to drop those soldiers off onto Utah beach without any air support. The soldiers were sacraficed because they were not prepared (ie Saving Private Ryan's 1st 15 minutes). I am disappointed that we put our soldiers in this situation in the first place... I wouldn't mind dying but give me a fighting chance :mad:
Has the United States or any President or any Armed Force ever had to make the decisions necessary to fight a war of this nature ever in our history?
It makes me want to fucking puke when all these liberal shitfucks start crowing about how we are, "fighting the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time..." There are always going to be those scumbags who think their opinion on how to manage what situation we have been forced into will work better than what is being done now. The problem is these dipshits don't whine about it until the event has already past.
I guarantee if we didn't go to Iraq and.. say we went to Lybia instead or North Korea, the Liberalalas would be bitching up a storm as to why we hadn't gone after such a Middle Eastern superpower like Saddam. We all know Kerry has even admitted before we went to war what a threat Saddam was.....
You can never please an estorgen filled, chemically imbalanced Liberal.

[Denny]

Has the United States or any President or any Armed Force ever had to make the decisions necessary to fight a war of this nature ever in our history?
It makes me want to fucking puke when all these liberal shitfucks start crowing about how we are, "fighting the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time..." There are always going to be those scumbags who think their opinion on how to manage what situation we have been forced into will work better than what is being done now. The problem is these dipshits don't whine about it until the event has already past.
I guarantee if we didn't go to Iraq and.. say we went to Lybia instead or North Korea, the Liberalalas would be bitching up a storm as to why we hadn't gone after such a Middle Eastern superpower like Saddam. We all know Kerry has even admitted before we went to war what a threat Saddam was.....
You can never please an estorgen filled, chemically imbalanced Liberal.

You know, we've had our differences in the past, (mostly out of sheer bordem), but after reading this, I have a new-found respect for you. LOL!

[11B2V_Mike]

Has the United States or any President or any Armed Force ever had to make the decisions necessary to fight a war of this nature ever in our history?
It makes me want to fucking puke when all these liberal shitfucks start crowing about how we are, "fighting the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time..." There are always going to be those scumbags who think their opinion on how to manage what situation we have been forced into will work better than what is being done now. The problem is these dipshits don't whine about it until the event has already past.
I guarantee if we didn't go to Iraq and.. say we went to Lybia instead or North Korea, the Liberalalas would be bitching up a storm as to why we hadn't gone after such a Middle Eastern superpower like Saddam. We all know Kerry has even admitted before we went to war what a threat Saddam was.....
You can never please an estorgen filled, chemically imbalanced Liberal.


+ 1

[WhtEdge]

I cannot realy pass judgement w/o being in the situation BUT from what I hear the fuel they were to transport was rumored to be contaminated. The trucks did not have armor which sounds like an ongoing problem over there. There are parents buying armor for their kids in the military and shipping it to them. If in fact the fuel was contaminated how many other vehicles could that put out of commision? Without me knowing all the details it sounds like someone was just making orders w/o listening to their people concerns about their equipment. Also, I hear some of the vehicles were not very reliable. Put yourself or kids in that situation. If that convoy did not make it through there would be more dead soldiers and another convoy would have to go. They are in the military and have a duty. So do the ones in upper command. It is crazy now how they are getting a safety review since the media got into it. Why was that not done when people started reporting this to their superiors? Also, I think some of the soldiers are questioning the entire war.

[Cobra Commander]

Has the United States or any President or any Armed Force ever had to make the decisions necessary to fight a war of this nature ever in our history?
It makes me want to fucking puke when all these liberal shitfucks start crowing about how we are, "fighting the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time..." There are always going to be those scumbags who think their opinion on how to manage what situation we have been forced into will work better than what is being done now. The problem is these dipshits don't whine about it until the event has already past.
I guarantee if we didn't go to Iraq and.. say we went to Lybia instead or North Korea, the Liberalalas would be bitching up a storm as to why we hadn't gone after such a Middle Eastern superpower like Saddam. We all know Kerry has even admitted before we went to war what a threat Saddam was.....
You can never please an estorgen filled, chemically imbalanced Liberal.


You really didn't get... I'm sure your highschool football coach told you this "Piss poor practice = Piss poor performance"... My stance is give your soldiers all the weapons and protection needed to do their jobs effectively asshole... I hope you'll have some new found respect for that punk asses...

[Denny]

You really didn't get... I'm sure your highschool football coach told you this "Piss poor practice = Piss poor performance"... My stance is give your soldiers all the weapons and protection needed to do their jobs effectively asshole... I hope you'll have some new found respect for that punk asses...

OK, tell us what protection we need to accomplish the mission without casualties or fatalities... better yet, go make it and you'll be a rich, rich man because it doesn't exsist!

[AL P]

Has the United States or any President or any Armed Force ever had to make the decisions necessary to fight a war of this nature ever in our history?
It makes me want to fucking puke when all these liberal shitfucks start crowing about how we are, "fighting the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time..." There are always going to be those scumbags who think their opinion on how to manage what situation we have been forced into will work better than what is being done now. The problem is these dipshits don't whine about it until the event has already past.
I guarantee if we didn't go to Iraq and.. say we went to Lybia instead or North Korea, the Liberalalas would be bitching up a storm as to why we hadn't gone after such a Middle Eastern superpower like Saddam. We all know Kerry has even admitted before we went to war what a threat Saddam was.....
You can never please an estorgen filled, chemically imbalanced Liberal.

Monday morning quarterbacking by liberal shitheads is always entertaining.

Most of them would cry if someone yelled at them loud enough.

[Sgt Beavis]

Before some of you guys go around condemning these guys.

1. No one here knows all the facts.
2. The trucks were reportedly redlined, which means they aren't even supposed to be driven in peacetime, let alone wartime.
3. According to the report, as a result of this incident, the entire Battalion had to stand down to bolt armor on the rest of the trucks. That makes me think that these soldier are not full of shit.
4. Among the soldiers that balked at this mission, there are a couple of senior NCO's. I've rarely met an NCO above the rank of 1st Sgt that was incompitent. All NCO's care about the welfare of their soldiers and should be willing to stand up to any officer that is not acting in the best interest of the soldiers and accomplishing the mission.

When it is all said and done, I do belive there will be some non-judicial punishment handed down but I have a gut feeling that this whole thing went down because of an over zealous offcer.

[AL P]

Before some of you guys go around condemning these guys.

1. No one here knows all the facts.
2. The trucks were reportedly redlined, which means they aren't even supposed to be driven in peacetime, let alone wartime.
3. According to the report, as a result of this incident, the entire Battalion had to stand down to bolt armor on the rest of the trucks. That makes me think that these soldier are not full of shit.
4. Among the soldiers that balked at this mission, there are a couple of senior NCO's. I've rarely met an NCO above the rank of 1st Sgt that was incompitent. All NCO's care about the welfare of their soldiers and should be willing to stand up to any officer that is not acting in the best interest of the soldiers and accomplishing the mission.

When it is all said and done, I do belive there will be some non-judicial punishment handed down but I have a gut feeling that this whole thing went down because of an over zealous offcer.

And there you go....

[WhtEdge]

Has the United States or any President or any Armed Force ever had to make the decisions necessary to fight a war of this nature ever in our history?
It makes me want to fucking puke when all these liberal shitfucks start crowing about how we are, "fighting the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time..." There are always going to be those scumbags who think their opinion on how to manage what situation we have been forced into will work better than what is being done now. The problem is these dipshits don't whine about it until the event has already past.
I guarantee if we didn't go to Iraq and.. say we went to Lybia instead or North Korea, the Liberalalas would be bitching up a storm as to why we hadn't gone after such a Middle Eastern superpower like Saddam. We all know Kerry has even admitted before we went to war what a threat Saddam was.....
You can never please an estorgen filled, chemically imbalanced Liberal.

I am no liberal shitfuck as you say but I don't completely agree with the Iraq War. I have always thought the key objective should have been Osama which we STILL DON'T HAVE. Saddam did need to be taken out but now? I have no doubt Saddam would always be up to no good and would need to be dealt with. How many other crazy a$$ dictators are there in the world? Do we go after them too? On to this thing about the soldiers. Are you willing to go over there and serve? Would you want to go on that convoy knowing the equipment is not up to par and a possibility of contaminated fuel w/o armor? Get your a$$ shot up for no reason b/c someone stupid would not listen. Don't get me wrong, I know being in the service requires your duty. The thing is that these soldiers did report problems and were still told to go. Sounds like a bunch of crap to me. Why are the safety checks now being investigated now. Shouldn't that have been done already?

[Cobra Commander]

OK, tell us what protection we need to accomplish the mission without casualties or fatalities... better yet, go make it and you'll be a rich, rich man because it doesn't exsist!


Don't be stupid about this... Of course war will have casualties or fatalities... Just strategize effectively for effective results. Its just common sense brotha'... I don't see how that is so Liberal... I don't want situations like this "General's Letter" to destroy our credibility as a World Military Power... This makes us look weak and vulnerable alright...

[Cobra Commander]

I am no liberal shitfuck as you say but I don't completely agree with the Iraq War. I have always thought the key objective should have been Osama which we STILL DON'T HAVE. Saddam did need to be taken out but now? I have no doubt Saddam would always be up to no good and would need to be dealt with. How many other crazy a$$ dictators are there in the world? Do we go after them too? On to this thing about the soldiers. Are you willing to go over there and serve? Would you want to go on that convoy knowing the equipment is not up to par and a possibility of contaminated fuel w/o armor? Get your a$$ shot up for no reason b/c someone stupid would not listen. Don't get me wrong, I know being in the service requires your duty. The thing is that these soldiers did report problems and were still told to go. Sounds like a bunch of crap to me. Why are the safety checks now being investigated now. Shouldn't that have been done already?


This is my point... Why you all trying to categorize people as being liberal when all of you would do or think the same. Thats like saying that you would want to work as Secret Service Agents protecting the President without a Kevlar Vest... Well anyone that says they would then you are the one thats Liberal... No its down right stupid... Have some common sense!

[AL P]

How many other crazy a$$ dictators are there in the world? Do we go after them too??

If we have an agreement with them for ten years which they repeatedly break, while at the same time ignoring diplomatic attempts and openly sponsoring terrorism against one of our allies then yes, we should bust their ass.

[WhtEdge]

If we have an agreement with them for ten years which they repeatedly break, while at the same time ignoring diplomatic attempts and openly sponsoring terrorism against one of our allies then yes, we should bust their ass.

Yes, I did not consider that he did that. I have just have to wonder if he is the real priority in this "War on Terror" issue now. Personally, I think Afghanistan should have been resolved more so than it is now and then...Saddam. That is my arm chair solution. HA!

[Danny]

Just strategize effectively for effective results. Are you saying we haven't? :confused:

Are you saying that the loss of life incurred by coalition troops is out of line with what has been accomplished? I think you need to crack open a history book and see what it "normally" takes to accomplish what we have.. and you also might want to see how long it "should" take..

[AL P]

Yes, I did not consider that he did that. I have just have to wonder if he is the real priority in this "War on Terror" issue now. Personally, I think Afghanistan should have been resolved more so than it is now and then...Saddam. That is my arm chair solution. HA!

Terrorists should be denied ANY safe haven IMO. Whether it is denied through military force, diplomacy or sanctions does not matter to me, as long as it is denied.

[WhtEdge]

Terrorists should be denied ANY safe haven IMO. Whether it is denied through military force, diplomacy or sanctions does not matter to me, as long as it is denied.

Was Iraq really a safe haven for them more than any other country over there. Who knows... I agree about the terrorists though. Killing them should become a sport. Osama's beard would make decent toilet paper for the out house.

[Cobra Commander]

Are you saying we haven't? :confused:

Are you saying that the loss of life incurred by coalition troops is out of line with what has been accomplished? I think you need to crack open a history book and see what it "normally" takes to accomplish what we have.. and you also might want to see how long it "should" take..


No, I think you need to crack open your history book and learn effectively, which seems to be a key word with you... Utah beach on D-Day, now you're the commander in charge, do you allow those soldiers to get "mowed" into shreds like it happened knowing the German's postion on the beach? Do you repeat that advance or do you plan a better route or wait for air support?

Its common Sense!

[AL P]

Was Iraq really a safe haven for them more than any other country over there. Who knows... I agree about the terrorists though. Killing them should become a sport. Osama's beard would make decent toilet paper for the out house.

Who knows. But with the other factors in the case of Iraq I say why not just bust their ass?

[Danny]

No, I think you need to crack open your history book and learn effectively, which seems to be a key word with you... Utah beach on D-Day, now you're the commander in charge, do you allow those soldiers to get "mowed" into shreds like it happened knowing the German's postion on the beach? Do you repeat that advance or do you plan a better route or wait for air support?

Its common Sense!I LOVE that you just illustrated my point. Thank you.

You apparently know nothing of what it takes to win battles / wars. It isn't a high or low body count, that's for sure. Had we stepped up surveillance / air support in the area, the Germans would have been tipped off that we were in the area, and ALL those American soldiers would have been lost, as well as the battle.

However, we won the battle with great loss of life, gaining a foothold onto the eastern European mainland. That allowed us to begin forcing a Nazi retreat, and ultimately, victory in the war. Was it worth it?


Use your common sense before you answer.

[Cobra Commander]

I LOVE that you just illustrated my point. Thank you.

You apparently know nothing of what it takes to win battles / wars. It isn't a high or low body count, that's for sure. Had we stepped up surveillance / air support in the area, the Germans would have been tipped off that we were in the area, and ALL those American soldiers would have been lost, as well as the battle.

However, we won the battle with great loss of life, gaining a foothold onto the eastern European mainland. That allowed us to begin forcing a Nazi retreat, and ultimately, victory in the war. Was it worth it?


Use your common sense before you answer.


I just love your answer "Spin Doctor"... It should be precedented that you have no common sense...

Read "The Art of War" its a 2k year old book that would help you in your life's future battles.... Dan- E - Son...

[Danny]

What's the spin?

Here's my question:
Are you saying that the loss of life incurred by coalition troops is out of line with what has been accomplished?

A simple yes or no will do, spin-free. :)

[Denny]

Every mission/convoy that I have had any part of over here has had tons of planning and strategizing. I, the unarmed civilian, can't really complain at the tactics used to execute the missions.

I've always felt that there was enough firepower each time. Of course, there will never be enough PPE (personal protective equipment), but there's always been a lot of it. As a safety specialist, it's part of my job to ensure that my guys have enough gear to provide protection for themselves. They haven't complained to me. It's a warzone, don't expect room service.

[Cobra Commander]

What's the spin?

Here's my question:


A simple yes or no will do, spin-free. :)


Its simple as no answer is the correct answer... You see You and I are not there to effectively answer the question. An answer from you or I would be mere speculation...

I know you don't like seeing our soldiers coming back in body bags as so do I, but my issue is WTF is up with a General having to write a letter for reinforcement supplies ect... We have to better manage this situation or we look weak to our enemies and allies... What I'm afraid of is that we as a nation are becoming numb to the realities of this War... Its like nothing to watch the news and hear about more soldiers dying. I just want to make sure that our soldiers have everything they need to get the job done. I'm sure you feel the same...

[Denny]

When do Generals NOT write letters for reinforcement supplies, etc. during a war?

That's not news.

[Danny]

I just want to make sure that our soldiers have everything they need to get the job done. I'm sure you feel the same...
I do. And I am extremely impressed with the low number of casualties incurred to this point. I'm not trying to downplay the loss of life of our boys, but it has really been a remarkable feat to get to where we are now considering the situation and what has been accomplished.

It could not have been done without proper planning, training, and battlefield protection.

[Denny]

Shao... can I call you Shao?

I really like the point you're trying to make. Support for the troops is paramount out here. The thing is, where they need the support is from the politicians letting them do what they need to do to get the job done. You wouldn't believe the frustration I see on their faces out here when they can only stand by and do so much just because the politicians are trying to please all parties involved. It makes me sick to see our nation's finest trying to fight an unconventional war with one hand tied behind our back.

The truth is, this whole war could have been over long ago. Thanks to the whiners, we have to just retaliate from incoming fire out here. Nothing more.

Don't touch the Mosque... It's base! (Kinda like freeze tag) :rolleyes:

[Cobra Commander]

Shao... can I call you Shao?

I really like the point you're trying to make. Support for the troops is paramount out here. The thing is, where they need the support is from the politicians letting them do what they need to do to get the job done. You wouldn't believe the frustration I see on their faces out here when they can only stand by and do so much just because the politicians are trying to please all parties involved. It makes me sick to see our nation's finest trying to fight an unconventional war with one hand tied behind our back.

The truth is, this whole war could have been over long ago. Thanks to the whiners, we have to just retaliate from incoming fire out here. Nothing more.

Don't touch the Mosque... It's base! (Kinda like freeze tag) :rolleyes:


I agree with you... I'm just always trying to look for things I can do better in my personal life that I feel that theres always something we can do to be best... I'm a sore Loser thats all...

[Denny]

I agree with you... I'm just always trying to look for things I can do better in my personal life that I feel that theres always something we can do to be best... I'm a sore Loser thats all...

I hear ya, but when articles like these are published, it takes away from our real need out here.

Do you realize how close we were to taking Fallujah when the military had to back off? If that city would have been finished off originally, sooooo many problems would have been avoided. Just like Najaf, (the holy city), when all those "worshipers" were allowed in, I looked at it as if each one of those guys could just as easily carry a gun like an insurgent. Guess what, I was right! Headache after headache out here over things that can so easily be taken care of... we're all just pawns in a political game of chess.

[Denny]

One thing is for sure... my contract ends late April/ early May sometime, but I'm not coming home for good until my wife makes me.

[AL P]

I do. And I am extremely impressed with the low number of casualties incurred to this point. I'm not trying to downplay the loss of life of our boys, but it has really been a remarkable feat to get to where we are now considering the situation and what has been accomplished.

It could not have been done without proper planning, training, and battlefield protection.

You are correct, roughly 1% is good. It sucks if one of your family members was in that 1% though. No one made them sign up though.

[Sgt Beavis]

I hear ya, but when articles like these are published, it takes away from our real need out here.

Do you realize how close we were to taking Fallujah when the military had to back off? If that city would have been finished off originally, sooooo many problems would have been avoided. Just like Najaf, (the holy city), when all those "worshipers" were allowed in, I looked at it as if each one of those guys could just as easily carry a gun like an insurgent. Guess what, I was right! Headache after headache out here over things that can so easily be taken care of... we're all just pawns in a political game of chess.

Denny = One of the smartest mo'fos around here.

[Denny]

Denny = One of the smartest mo'fos around here.

Sig check!!!

[uberkool]

to: ss rrr

i got bored listening to your fuck up outlook of "my" military. i got in knowing what i was getting into so did 99% of the other enlistees that join. these pussies that didnt follow orders should be in jail. the military has there own laws. They arech more strict than "your" civilan laws are. more things are expected of us (military) because we live a life for our country, we represent our country. this is the only reason why you sleep safe and sound at night, because we follow the orders we are given if we choose not to follow those orders it breakes the chain that makes us the strongest military in the world.

p.s.
your opinion doesn’t matter. just thought I’d let you know that you wont be asked to be a juror in there trial its a military matter and mark my words they will wish they followed there orders.

dishonorable dicharge is like a death sentance for anyones career out of the military


Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest
better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

thank god your not in my military

[Pro Trash]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041017/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_unit_investigation_28

GIs Who Refused Job Had Unarmored Trucks

By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. Army Reserve soldiers who refused orders to drive a dangerous route were members of one of a few supply units whose trucks are still unarmored, their commanding general said Sunday

The soldiers, now under investigation, had previously focused on local missions in safer parts of southern Iraq and had never driven a convoy north along the attack-prone roads passing through Baghdad.

"Not all of their trucks are completely armored. In their case, they haven't had the chance to get armored," said Brig. Gen. James E. Chambers, commanding general of 13th Corps Support Command, which sends some 250 convoys ferrying Army fuel, food and ammunition across Iraq each day.

==============

You can disobey an order if you believe that order is not a lawful one, like executing unarmed civilians. You can't disobey because you think you will get hurt. :rolleyes:

I read several articles on this particular incident and the above article fails to mention that a large percentage of the vehicles were deadlines. In the Army vehicles on the dead line report are not suppose to go anywhere. The article also fails to mention the extreme shortage of critical parts. The parts shelves are empty and this is a big problem, the ball has been dropped and not by our soldiers. These soldiers were refusing to go on a mission because the vehicles would most likely would break down and place them in grave danger. A vehicle that has been deadlined should be fixed before it can be used or it's status changed. The unit can always have the Maint. Chief write it off and then they can use it. But if you were a leader in the Military with personnel under you and were told to take your soldiers into extreme hostile conditions with malfunctioning equipment, would you? If you did this without question you would be failing in your leadership duties. You wouldn't take a group of men into a fire fight with limited ammo, no CLP(lubricant for weapon), or M-16s that misfired would you? I admit disobeying a direct order is not the best approach but if it saves lives that are being placed in harms way in spite then it is the most correct course of action.

[TexasDevilDog]

I read several articles on this particular incident and the above article fails to mention that a large percentage of the vehicles were deadlines. In the Army vehicles on the dead line report are not suppose to go anywhere. The article also fails to mention the extreme shortage of critical parts.

I saw one of the guys mommy on MSNBC last night. The original article failed to mention, that she did, that the unit just did a delivery with those trucks. It also failed to mention that another platoon drove those trucks after those people refused to drive them.

With everything I have read and seen on TV, regardless of their complaints, they will be going to Article 15 procedings and probably get slapped on the wrist.

[uberkool]

I saw one of the guys mommy on MSNBC last night. The original article failed to mention, that she did, that the unit just did a delivery with those trucks. It also failed to mention that another platoon drove those trucks after those people refused to drive them.

With everything I have read and seen on TV, regardless of their complaints, they will be going to Article 15 procedings and probably get slapped on the wrist.


and thats why the army is such a joke. marines would have strung there asses up
that idiot on ferinheit 9-11 movie is in deep shit the last i heard just for saying he would go UA if he was sent to iraq

when i was a marine a ssgt emaild the comadant about wheight standards and he had a aditude inthe email an he got a bcd

[Pro Trash]

I saw one of the guys mommy on MSNBC last night. The original article failed to mention, that she did, that the unit just did a delivery with those trucks. It also failed to mention that another platoon drove those trucks after those people refused to drive them.

With everything I have read and seen on TV, regardless of their complaints, they will be going to Article 15 procedings and probably get slapped on the wrist.

I'm not sure what you feel about it;however, I am not going to pass judgement on any soldier in Iraq. Besides it is pretty easy for us to set here and debate from the couch we aren't there are we?

[TAMUz06]

They should have armor - but they don't - so they should fucking adapt and overcome that by MAKING armor, jesus christ - Vietnam vets have got to be cringing at this...we rolled around for a few weeks without "up-armor", we didn't like it, so the first few days we spent hardening what we did have - sandbags, plasma torch on some steel plating to fit to doors and truck beds, kevlar inserts from old body armor vests, kevlar blankets made to fit Humvees draped like curtains behind drivers, comeon! Where were these guys while everyone else in the damn country was doing this? If these guys would pull their heads outta their asses, quit listening to headphones while driving down the highway, or leaving their weapons on the floorboard, they'd make a harder target and not get attacked so much, and if they were attacked, they could spit some lead downrange while still within a klick of the ambush. What a black eye for the Army, now they're making it look like it's the whole Army's fault....DOD has busted its ass adapting to this kind of warfare and kicking out armor to the units here, someone has to be last, suck it up, adapt, and drive on until it gets there, "pansy soldier" just about sums it up IMO.

[Pro Trash]

They should have armor - but they don't - so they should fucking adapt and overcome that by MAKING armor, jesus christ - Vietnam vets have got to be cringing at this...we rolled around for a few weeks without "up-armor", we didn't like it, so the first few days we spent hardening what we did have - sandbags, plasma torch on some steel plating to fit to doors and truck beds, kevlar inserts from old body armor vests, kevlar blankets made to fit Humvees draped like curtains behind drivers, comeon! Where were these guys while everyone else in the damn country was doing this? If these guys would pull their heads outta their asses, quit listening to headphones while driving down the highway, or leaving their weapons on the floorboard, they'd make a harder target and not get attacked so much, and if they were attacked, they could spit some lead downrange while still within a klick of the ambush. What a black eye for the Army, now they're making it look like it's the whole Army's fault....DOD has busted its ass adapting to this kind of warfare and kicking out armor to the units here, someone has to be last, suck it up, adapt, and drive on until it gets there, "pansy soldier" just about sums it up IMO.

You there right now?

[TAMUz06]

Yep, I'm a grunt who routinely gets detailed to secure convoys our on the highway, usually the lead or tail gun truck. Yesterday we were popped by an IED just south of Tikrit on MSR Tampa - I sit in a turret with a machine gun, my whole upper body exposed - my personal body armor being my only protection. When we patrol downtown, at night, black-out drive, I sit in the turret with nothing but my personal body armor - and that's where folks sit around and fire RPG's and AK's at you....what do I do? I sit at name-tape defilade and scan like a motherfucker with my NODs, because I don't want to get my grape popped or take a shot to the torso - you adapt to your environment, these truck drivers aren't adapting, they're pussing out. Some folks in here who assume that just because the Army didn't give them "custom fitted armor" that they should be driving around in a soft-skinned vehicle...that just isn't true. There is so much you can do to a vehicle in just an afternoon that would be just as good as the "custom fitted armor", how long have these people been in-country?


FWIW, a truck can be deadlined for anything from a burned out headlight to a blown engine....

[TexasDevilDog]

I'm not sure what you feel about it;however, I am not going to pass judgement on any soldier in Iraq. Besides it is pretty easy for us to set here and debate from the couch we aren't there are we?

This is how I feel about it. You follow your military training. Period. The military tells you how to walk, talk, eat, crap, shoot, fight and how to do your job. Traingin also includes UCMJ, following orders, when not to follow orders and how to apeal up the chain of command.

I remember receiving orders for painting rocks, raking sand, standing watch on an empty build all night, driving military vehicles that I had no license for and fixing equipment by non conforming means.

The platoon that did the job that these 16 guys refused to do, did not get attacked. If another unit will do the job, I think there is some other underlining issue not in facts.

[Ktulu]

I read several articles on this particular incident and the above article fails to mention that a large percentage of the vehicles were deadlines. In the Army vehicles on the dead line report are not suppose to go anywhere. The article also fails to mention the extreme shortage of critical parts. The parts shelves are empty and this is a big problem, the ball has been dropped and not by our soldiers. These soldiers were refusing to go on a mission because the vehicles would most likely would break down and place them in grave danger. A vehicle that has been deadlined should be fixed before it can be used or it's status changed. The unit can always have the Maint. Chief write it off and then they can use it. But if you were a leader in the Military with personnel under you and were told to take your soldiers into extreme hostile conditions with malfunctioning equipment, would you? If you did this without question you would be failing in your leadership duties. You wouldn't take a group of men into a fire fight with limited ammo, no CLP(lubricant for weapon), or M-16s that misfired would you? I admit disobeying a direct order is not the best approach but if it saves lives that are being placed in harms way in spite then it is the most correct course of action.

so its ok for them not to supply another soldier because they dont have supplies?
hmm... if that was the case then no one over there would be doing anything.

[11B2V_Mike]

Yep, I'm a grunt who routinely gets detailed to secure convoys our on the highway, usually the lead or tail gun truck. Yesterday we were popped by an IED just south of Tikrit on MSR Tampa - I sit in a turret with a machine gun, my whole upper body exposed - my personal body armor being my only protection. When we patrol downtown, at night, black-out drive, I sit in the turret with nothing but my personal body armor - and that's where folks sit around and fire RPG's and AK's at you....what do I do? I sit at name-tape defilade and scan like a motherfucker with my NODs, because I don't want to get my grape popped or take a shot to the torso - you adapt to your environment, these truck drivers aren't adapting, they're pussing out. Some folks in here who assume that just because the Army didn't give them "custom fitted armor" that they should be driving around in a soft-skinned vehicle...that just isn't true. There is so much you can do to a vehicle in just an afternoon that would be just as good as the "custom fitted armor", how long have these people been in-country?


FWIW, a truck can be deadlined for anything from a burned out headlight to a blown engine....


Improvise, adapt, and overcome. Keep that 240b hummin' ;)

[uberkool]

Improvise, adapt, and overcome. Keep that 240b hummin' ;)



adapt and overcome is right



if all else fails sand bag it



whats the first thing your tought to do when you get to a new lz
sand bag it

[TexasDevilDog]

adapt and overcome is right



if all else fails sand bag it



whats the first thing your tought to do when you get to a new lz
sand bag it

We dug fighting positions first. ;)

[uberkool]

We dug fighting positions first. ;)

i was always pissin my di's, sgt and above off so i was always sand bagging it others dug in

[11B2V_Mike]

hasty fighting position is about all they could ever talk me into digging :D my ruck provided all the cover and concealment in needed, hehe

[11B2V_Mike]

by the way, uberkool, you sig rocks !! we're America..... Fuck Yeah!!

[Pro Trash]

so its ok for them not to supply another soldier because they dont have supplies?
hmm... if that was the case then no one over there would be doing anything.

Nope didn't say that please excuse yourself from putting words in my mouth. I was pointing out a leader has a duty to his men as well as his mission. I know none of the commanders I ever served under would have ordered me as a Platoon Sergeant to take my tanks out with deadlines. I also know that when I was Infantry we kept our equipment well maintained and never took broke shit out on a mission. There are two sides to every story

[Pro Trash]

This is how I feel about it. You follow your military training. Period. The military tells you how to walk, talk, eat, crap, shoot, fight and how to do your job. Traingin also includes UCMJ, following orders, when not to follow orders and how to apeal up the chain of command.

I remember receiving orders for painting rocks, raking sand, standing watch on an empty build all night, driving military vehicles that I had no license for and fixing equipment by non conforming means.

The platoon that did the job that these 16 guys refused to do, did not get attacked. If another unit will do the job, I think there is some other underlining issue not in facts.

I did a lot of the same things you did, I picked up candy wrappers in the middle of the Saudi Arabian desert on morning police calls. I followed orders to the T, but my leaders never put me in a position where my equipment was substandard during combat operations. I was in leadership positions for 7 yrs and often followed orders I personally did not agree with. I do know that if ordered to put my men in deadline vehicles in a combat area would have arisen I would have questioned those orders. Also it is very easy to be an arm chair quarter back don't you agree?

[Pro Trash]

Yep, I'm a grunt who routinely gets detailed to secure convoys our on the highway, usually the lead or tail gun truck. Yesterday we were popped by an IED just south of Tikrit on MSR Tampa - I sit in a turret with a machine gun, my whole upper body exposed - my personal body armor being my only protection. When we patrol downtown, at night, black-out drive, I sit in the turret with nothing but my personal body armor - and that's where folks sit around and fire RPG's and AK's at you....what do I do? I sit at name-tape defilade and scan like a motherfucker with my NODs, because I don't want to get my grape popped or take a shot to the torso - you adapt to your environment, these truck drivers aren't adapting, they're pussing out. Some folks in here who assume that just because the Army didn't give them "custom fitted armor" that they should be driving around in a soft-skinned vehicle...that just isn't true. There is so much you can do to a vehicle in just an afternoon that would be just as good as the "custom fitted armor", how long have these people been in-country?


FWIW, a truck can be deadlined for anything from a burned out headlight to a blown engine....

i don't recall commenting on Armor, I didn't have anything but a Kevlar and flack vest in Panama or Desert Storm. I am talking about vehicles with critical parts shortages that could leave joes stranded in bad situations.

[TexasDevilDog]

i was always pissin my di's, sgt and above off so i was always sand bagging it others dug in

I was always one of the gunhoo guys. I was always being RTO for my platoon, which means the LT and I shared a fighting position that I dug by myself.

[TexasDevilDog]

Imaged the Big Red Express breaking down during WWII because the supply lines were under attack and none of the supply trucks were armored.

Big Red Express facts
August 1944, Patton's Third Army broke through the German lines, advancing rapidly, moving faster than supply lines. Trucks and drivers from every available unit were pressed into service, with most of the drivers being black, since they were restricted from participating in combat. On Aug. 25, 1944. , the legendary Red Ball Express was born.
The first runs in August involved over 3,000 trucks.
Drivers on the Red Ball Express picked up freight at St. Lô, near the Normandy beaches, and drove as fast as they could to Chartres to supply the U.S. 1st Army, or to Dreux for the U.S. 3rd Army. This was 700-mile round trip.
In the first month, the express delivered 290,000 tons of desperately needed supplies to the front.
At its peak, the Red Ball Express operated 5,958 vehicles and carried 12,342 tons of supplies to the front.
Trucks rolled 24-hours a day. Any trucks that broke down were shoved to the side of the road, repaired in place by roving repair teams, and re-joined the convoy as soon as they could.
"Redball" is an old railroad term meaning "priority freight."
Trucks of the RedBall Express displayed a red ball insignia, which gave them right-of-way over other traffic.
The Redball Express ran 81 days, until terminated in November 1944.

[TAMUz06]

i don't recall commenting on Armor, I didn't have anything but a Kevlar and flack vest in Panama or Desert Storm. I am talking about vehicles with critical parts shortages that could leave joes stranded in bad situations.


The only part of that post directed at you was the first word, in response to your "are you there now?" post, and the answer, again, is "yep". The rest was for folks bitching and moaning about the trucks not having armor and how they shouldn't be going out without it. Boys and Girls, reading for comprehension can be fun!



On a side note - I won't comment on any of the non-combat arms units, but the infantry and armor units that I see do their damnest to get vehicles running as best they can, but sometimes the mission requires a vehicle go out with a circle X, just how it goes out here, I'm sure it always has, and probably always will be that way.

[AL P]

Imaged the Big Red Express breaking down during WWII because the supply lines were under attack and none of the supply trucks were armored.

Big Red Express facts
August 1944, Patton's Third Army broke through the German lines, advancing rapidly, moving faster than supply lines. Trucks and drivers from every available unit were pressed into service, with most of the drivers being black, since they were restricted from participating in combat. On Aug. 25, 1944. , the legendary Red Ball Express was born.
The first runs in August involved over 3,000 trucks.
Drivers on the Red Ball Express picked up freight at St. Lô, near the Normandy beaches, and drove as fast as they could to Chartres to supply the U.S. 1st Army, or to Dreux for the U.S. 3rd Army. This was 700-mile round trip.
In the first month, the express delivered 290,000 tons of desperately needed supplies to the front.
At its peak, the Red Ball Express operated 5,958 vehicles and carried 12,342 tons of supplies to the front.
Trucks rolled 24-hours a day. Any trucks that broke down were shoved to the side of the road, repaired in place by roving repair teams, and re-joined the convoy as soon as they could.
"Redball" is an old railroad term meaning "priority freight."
Trucks of the RedBall Express displayed a red ball insignia, which gave them right-of-way over other traffic.
The Redball Express ran 81 days, until terminated in November 1944.

Men like that don't exist anymore.

[Pro Trash]

The only part of that post directed at you was the first word, in response to your "are you there now?" post, and the answer, again, is "yep". The rest was for folks bitching and moaning about the trucks not having armor and how they shouldn't be going out without it. Boys and Girls, reading for comprehension can be fun!





On a side note - I won't comment on any of the non-combat arms units, but the infantry and armor units that I see do their damnest to get vehicles running as best they can, but sometimes the mission requires a vehicle go out with a circle X, just how it goes out here, I'm sure it always has, and probably always will be that way.

Well there is and always be a difference in the way combat arms versus REMFs do business.

[TexasDevilDog]

Well there is and always be a difference in the way combat arms versus REMFs do business.

I agee, there is a big difference between troops up front and those in the rear with the gear.

[utdbear]

Its like D-Day and the decision to drop those soldiers off onto Utah beach without any air support. The soldiers were sacraficed because they were not prepared (ie Saving Private Ryan's 1st 15 minutes). I am disappointed that we put our soldiers in this situation in the first place... I wouldn't mind dying but give me a fighting chance :mad:

This statement disturbed me quite a bit. I have not served in the service and do not intend to unless I am called, but my grandfather did, and he was on the 2nd wave at Omaha Beach, where 2600 soldiers died that day. To date there have been just over 1000 deaths in the war in Iraq. Not that the thousand in Iraq aren't significant, they definitely are, but to compare the situation in Iraq to the one against the Nazis is just plain ludicrous. First, these men VOLUNTEERED to be over there by signing up. My grandfather did not have that luxury, his number was called and he HAD TO GO. 2nd, my grandfather was drafted in 1942, and returned just after the fall of Berlin in 45. He was there for three years, do you think that he got thirsty or hungry or wondered where his armor was for his tank? Thats a sacrifice. And the thing that taught me about that was when my grandmother told me the story about the day he came back home, she asked him what it was like over there. He never told her, and until the day he died in 2002 he never told nobody of what happened over there. The only evidence I have of him ever going over there is my father, and a Nazi flag he took from there before he left. I see Denny and TamuZ06 posting on this board pretty frequently of whats going on over there,, and they are serving just as honorably as my grandfather did, but I am thinking that their situations are not as dire as MSNBC or Michael Moore would have you think, because if it was, I think that those guys would not say a word of what was happening. War involves risk, and thats all the way from the general to the guy driving the truck. To skip out on a mission because the A/C doesn't work or Mr. Goodwrench isn't at your base to make sure the armor is the same as the F-117 doesn't give you a right to skip out on your fellow soldiers. Sorry guys, rant off.

[HookEm]

No one held a gun to his head. It was done without duress. Ignorance of the facts is not a plea. "But my recruiter said" was uttered many times by many people in bootcamp. It doesnt mean squat.

You do understand that most recruiters approach people and say 'Oh, I wouldn't worry about war'. My brother was in the service for four years. He traveled all over, and thank GOD he got out before the shit hit the proverbial fan. Wanna know how they talked him into it? 'Oh you're a musician? We have some of the best schools in the country. Like to travel, we can make it happen, and we'll pay for your school'. When he broached the idea of him being sent into active duty, THEY LAUGHED and told him it would never happen. Especially not to a 'musician'. As for paying for his school, it's been a struggle every step of the way to get the money. And they are still fucking him on it.

[HookEm]

i don't recall commenting on Armor, I didn't have anything but a Kevlar and flack vest in Panama or Desert Storm. I am talking about vehicles with critical parts shortages that could leave joes stranded in bad situations.

Maybe you should voice your concerns to certain politicians that consistently vote agaisnt military funding projects. Senators KErry and eDWARDS would be a good starting point.