Peace Lovin Muslims Strike Again!

[46Tbird]

:rolleyes:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20040902/ts_nm/iraq_dc_26

Anyone that says Islam is a religion of peace is fucking full of shit.

[mikeb]

If there actually are elements of islam that are peace loving their silence about what the extremists are doing is certainly damming, eh? Where's the outrage?

[utdbear]

Osama bin Laden is about the biggest mainstream figure in Islam today. He is to Islam what George Washington is to democracy.

[Schargedcobra97]

"France has been deeply shocked by the seizure of two of its nationals because it objected to pre-war sanctions against Iraq, has no troops there and its relations with Arab countries were boosted by its opposition to the U.S.-led invasion. "

they dont even care if said country is against the war, apparently they capture any and all non-muslims... curious how people can just hate everyone but themselves..

[AL P]

The world is learning, these people don't care about anyone but themselves. If they don't get their way they just pull this jihad bullshit out of their asses and start killing anyone they can....

[TAMUz06]

Did someone mention air-strike on Al-Jazeera's major bureau's? ;)

[Dolomite]

http://www.dfwstangs.net/hosting/Dolomite/catholicpeace.jpg
http://www.dfwstangs.net/hosting/Dolomite/judaismpeace.jpg
http://www.dfwstangs.net/hosting/Dolomite/ap.jpg
http://www.dfwstangs.net/hosting/Dolomite/buddha02.jpg

[AL P]

Cool, the Muslims are a lot like the KKK, except they are everywhere. And I think the KKK members actually drink and eat pork and don't fuck each other in the ass.

[Dolomite]

I wouldn't be so sure about the last one, haven't you seen Deliverance? Hell, I think they even fuck the pork before eating it.

[exlude]

:rolleyes:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20040902/ts_nm/iraq_dc_26

Anyone that says Islam is a religion of peace is fucking full of shit.

It is a religion of peace. As those pictures show, many religions are but there are sects that bastardize that. Remember when the African American Muslims came to rise (Malcolm X and what not)? Many Islamic leaders condemned him, just as they are doing now. Unfortunately we don't get to hear from them as much ever since the US helped put the fundamentalists in power.

[black01gt]

If there actually are elements of islam that are peace loving their silence about what the extremists are doing is certainly damming, eh? Where's the outrage?
MOABs!

[01WhiteCobra]

So, I should look down upon all of Christianity because the KKK exists?

[AL P]

So, I should look down upon all of Christianity because the KKK exists?

No, you should look down on them because, for the most part, they are simpletons.

[utdbear]

It is a religion of peace. As those pictures show, many religions are but there are sects that bastardize that. Remember when the African American Muslims came to rise (Malcolm X and what not)? Many Islamic leaders condemned him, just as they are doing now. Unfortunately we don't get to hear from them as much ever since the US helped put the fundamentalists in power.

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and Allah’s religion shall reign supreme" (Q'uran 8:39)

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (Q'uran 9:5)

"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (Q'uran 4:74,76)

Sounds like a peaceful religion to me. The reason we have so much appeasement with the people in this country I believe is directly related to the lack of faith in this country. These terrorists actually believe that if they blow themselves up and kill Americans, they will get 70 virgins in heaven when they die and many Americans can't understand that. We say they're poor, undeveloped, etc, etc, etc, but they have something they are willing to die for and will do what it takes to get into heaven.

[utdbear]

No, you should look down on them because, for the most part, they are simpletons.

Al, can you expand on that?

And nowhere biblically is the actions of the KKK supported.

[Schargedcobra97]

The reason we have so much appeasement with the people in this country I believe is directly related to the lack of faith in this country. These terrorists actually believe that if they blow themselves up and kill Americans, they will get 70 virgins in heaven when they die and many Americans can't understand that. We say they're poor, undeveloped, etc, etc, etc, but they have something they are willing to die for and will do what it takes to get into heaven.


its not a lack of faith... its the common sense and the ability to face realty... you know, to have the ability to know that its fucking wrong to kill innocent people (those not of your religion) with the false belief that one will get into heaven...

[01WhiteCobra]

Al, can you expand on that?

And nowhere biblically is the actions of the KKK supported.

There is as much biblical context for murder and carnage as there is in the Qu'ran.

Hell, this world was shaped in the early first century on "Christian beliefs" conquering the mongrels.

[utdbear]

its not a lack of faith... its the common sense and the ability to face realty... you know, to have the ability to know that its fucking wrong to kill innocent people (those not of your religion) with the false belief that one will get into heaven...
It is a lack of belief in a higher power, please know that I mean overall, people that do not believe in a higher power will attribute religious terrorism to other things such as poverty and many other things. Islamic terrorists do not kill because they like seeing people die. They are being told by the things in their book and they believe that if they do what it says, they will get into heaven.

[utdbear]

There is as much biblical context for murder and carnage as there is in the Qu'ran.

Hell, this world was shaped in the early first century on "Christian beliefs" conquering the mongrels.
Can you point to any specific scripture for me? I have been in the Bible for the past 12 years and haven't seen any scripture that tells me i'll get into heaven if I kill people that don't believe in Christ.

[AL P]

Al, can you expand on that?

And nowhere biblically is the actions of the KKK supported.

You can pick apart scripture and support ANYTHING with the Bible. Same goes for the Koran. Jim Jones managed to convince people to drink his Kool-Aid using the Bible....David Koresh pretty much managed the same thing. People do this everyday under the guise of divine inspiration to justify their beliefs.

"This part I agree with, that part I don't agree with because of X,Y and Z (self defined reasons), so I'll ignore it"

[AL P]

There is as much biblical context for murder and carnage as there is in the Qu'ran.

Hell, this world was shaped in the early first century on "Christian beliefs" conquering the mongrels.

True, I just think that Christians have evolved beyond that. The Muslims haven't yet.

If it makes you feel any better, if I had lived in the first century I'm sure I'd hate the Christians :)

[46Tbird]

It is a religion of peace. As those pictures show, many religions are but there are sects that bastardize that. Remember when the African American Muslims came to rise (Malcolm X and what not)? Many Islamic leaders condemned him, just as they are doing now.Who? Where? I don't see this anywhere. All I see is deafening silence and one or two American Arab anti-defamation groups that have a nice little blurb on their webpage condemning terrorist actions.Unfortunately we don't get to hear from them as much ever since the US helped put the fundamentalists in power.I guess I don't understand. We've somehow silenced these Islamic groups that speak out about terrorists? :confused: I think you're full of crap.

Maybe you need to face the facts: of 32 armed conflicts throughout the world, over 2/3 of them involve Islamic fundamentalists. Islam has always been harsh, totalitarian, and brutal.

Only a moron would say that Islam is perceived by the world to be "civil and peaceful". All evidence is to the contrary.

Islam has gotten a reputation and lives up to it every day.

[01WhiteCobra]

Can you point to any specific scripture for me? I have been in the Bible for the past 12 years and haven't seen any scripture that tells me i'll get into heaven if I kill people that don't believe in Christ.


Just need one:

KJV Luke 19:27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

[exlude]

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and Allah’s religion shall reign supreme" (Q'uran 8:39)

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (Q'uran 9:5)

"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (Q'uran 4:74,76)

Sounds like a peaceful religion to me. I would think you had been around here long enough to know not to take quotes out of context without explaning them.

Did you know that the Catholic Church supports the idea of holy war? And that there are "just" wars?

Then you would understand that these "sword" verses, as they are called, are in defense of the Muslim nation and not normality.

"Even if thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me , I shall not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee , lo! I fear Allah , the Lord of the Worlds ." Aya 28

"34 . Save those who repent before ye overpower them . For know that Allah is Forgiving , Merciful .

35 . O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah , and seek the way of approach unto Him , and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed ."

"If anyone murders an [innocent] person, it will be as if he has murdered the whole of humanity. And if anyone saves a person it will be as if he has saved the whole of humanity."

Hell, Jihad is the personal struggle within one's self to overcome lust, greed, CRUELTY.

[exlude]

Perversion of Text

Muslims believe the prophet Mohammed received these revelations directly from God some 1400 years ago. It was at a time when he and other Muslims were being driven from their homes, persecuted, and killed. But although the Koran advocates self-defense, its most prevalent message is one of peace and brotherly love.

"If people are intent on using religion to motivate terror or violence, they'll find an excuse there no matter what the actual text says," says David Rodier of American University in Washington, D.C., who is an expert on the world's religions. Like the Koran, he says, most holy scriptures are filled with stories of war and warriors, and these images have been used throughout history by some members of every faith to justify bloodshed.

"Religion, after all, speaks to our most basic and ultimate convictions, and if you are wanting to use violence, if you can find a religious justification, then you can find a very powerful motivation," says Rodier.

Christians have killed in the name of God, as have Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and others. But it is Muslims who have most recently been accused of turning "divine commandments" into a divine license to kill.

Terrorists have often said they are striking out against their enemies and oppressors "in the name of Allah." But many Islamic scholars say such terrorists are not only violating the spirit of the Koran, but the letter of it as well.

"You do not kill innocent people, you do not cheat, you do not lie, you do not destroy any property of other human beings," says Imam Abdullah Khouj, an Islamic scholar and director of the Islamic Center, in Washington, D.C.

The attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon "can't be in the name of Allah," he adds.

[01WhiteCobra]

And lets not forget about the Christian wars in Germany in the 1500s. You know Martin Luther and his Protestants against the Catholic Church. A third of the German population was wiped out during that period.

[01WhiteCobra]

True, I just think that Christians have evolved beyond that. The Muslims haven't yet.

If it makes you feel any better, if I had lived in the first century I'm sure I'd hate the Christians :)

LOL.

Certainly. I guess everything is time relative. :)

[46Tbird]

You know, I looked all over the news reports today and could not find the one about the Christian terrorists that have 300 schoolchildren held hostage...

[exlude]

Say to those who have received the Book, and to the common folk
Do ye surrender yourselves unto God? If they become Muslims,
then are they guided aright: but if they turn away, your duty is only
preaching. 3:19

Be good to parents, and to kindred, and to orphans, and to the
poor, and to a neighbor, whether kinsman or new-comer, and to
a fellow traveller, and to the wayfarer, and to the slaves whom
your right hands hold; verily God loves not the proud, the vain
boaster. 4:40

Be helpful to one another according to goodness and piety, but
be not helpful for evil and malice. 5:3

And let not ill-will at any, induce you not to act uprightly. Act
uprightly. 5:11

He who slays anyone, unless it be a person guilty of manslaugher,
or of spreading disorders in the land, shall be as though he had
slain all of mankind; but that he who saves a life, shall as though
he had saved all mankind alive. 5:35

God loves those who do good. 5:93

It is not for you in anything to judge of their motives, nor for them
in anything to judge you. If you thrust them away you will be of the
doers of wrong. 6:52

Judgment is with God only. 6:57

And bear in mind the benefits of God, and lay not the earth waste with
deeds of licence. 7:72

And if they lean to peace, lean you also to it; and put your trust in God.
8:63

And the servants of the God of Mercy are they who walk upon the Earth
softly; and when the ignorant address them, they reply, Peace!' 25:64

[exlude]

And lets not forget about the Christian wars in Germany in the 1500s. You know Martin Luther and his Protestants against the Catholic Church. A third of the German population was wiped out during that period.


The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, hell, Hitler was Christian

[01WhiteCobra]

You know, I looked all over the news reports today and could not find the one about the Christian terrorists that have 300 schoolchildren held hostage...

No they got all their killing done earlier in history. Like wiping out 1/3 of the German population.

Or some lunatic using his Christian beliefs to wipe out some Jews early in the century.

[46Tbird]

A picture says a thousand words...

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040831/i/r1119689604.jpg

[01WhiteCobra]

A picture says a thousand words...



Sorry, I forgot, how many people like in "Palestine"?

[exlude]

A picture says a thousand words...


What exactly are you arguing? No one disagrees that there are people like you show in that picture?

[46Tbird]

No they got all their killing done earlier in history. Like wiping out 1/3 of the German population.

Or some lunatic using his Christian beliefs to wipe out some Jews early in the century.So... this in some way makes what the Islamo-fascists are doing "okay"?

I'll be the first to admit that the actions of the early Christians should be vilified.

[exlude]

So... this in some way makes what the Islamo-fascists are doing "okay"?

I'll be the first to admit that the actions of the early Christians should be vilified.

No one is saying what they are doing is okay, we are saying that that is not what Islam condones.

[01WhiteCobra]

So... this in some way makes what the Islamo-fascists are doing "okay"?

I'll be the first to admit that the actions of the early Christians should be vilified.

No is doesn't make it right.

But, trying to lump all Muslims together is like saying every Protestant Christian should be viled since the majority, if not all, KKK organizations describes themselves as Protestant Christian organizations.

[46Tbird]

No one is saying what they are doing is okay, we are saying that that is not what Islam condones.Only a moron would say that Islam is perceived by the world to be "civil and peaceful". All evidence is to the contrary.

Islam has gotten a reputation and lives up to it every day.Please send me a link or three about the popular uprising of the peaceful Muslims against the radical fundamentalists... I can't seem to find them anywhere.

[Dolomite]

You know, I looked all over the news reports today and could not find the one about the Christian terrorists that have 300 schoolchildren held hostage...

http://www.hrw.org/photos/2002/chechnya/images/montage.jpg

Damn, look at those towelheads!

Chechnya is primarily Muslim, but this isn't about religion. The Cossacks did the same thing.

[46Tbird]

I've never seen or heard of a state-sponsored KKK-approved church...

[46Tbird]

You guys can come back with all the peaceful Islamic text you want.. I'll have a current events media rebuttal for it.

[Dolomite]

You guys can come back with all the peaceful Islamic text you want.. I'll have a current events media rebuttal for it.

Wanting independence is a terrorist act?

[AL P]

You guys can come back with all the peaceful Islamic text you want.. I'll have a current events media rebuttal for it.

That's an excellent point. All religions have done some messed up shit. Muslims are doing it RIGHT NOW.

[utdbear]

Just need one:

KJV Luke 19:27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Well, in that particular passage, Jesus is telling the parable of the Ten Servants, which begins in Luke 19:11, and the parable ends in verse 27, and in verse 27, he is speaking as the king in the story, and not as Himself. However, in the Quranic verses, it is researched that Muhammed spoke 98 percent of it on behalf of 'Allah' and the other 2 percent on behalf of himself.

[46Tbird]

Wanting independence is a terrorist act?
It is when you down two Russian aircraft...

[exlude]

Please send me a link or three about the popular uprising of the peaceful Muslims against the radical fundamentalists... I can't seem to find them anywhere.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-11/29/article27.shtml

http://www.southjerseynews.com/faith/f040503a.htm


Not really an Islamic article, but pointful (I don't think that's a word) none the less:

http://www.geocities.com/bharatvarsha1947/January_2003/muslimsviolent.htm

[AL P]

Wanting independence is a terrorist act?

No, but wanting indepedence and then blowing yourself up in public places, intentionally killing civilians and holding children at gunpoint to get it IS.

[exlude]

You guys can come back with all the peaceful Islamic text you want.. I'll have a current events media rebuttal for it.

You are confused here. We are not arguing what many Islamists are or are not doing to do. We are arguing the theology of the Quran and if it backs the terroristic actions. I HIGHLY doubt your current events will talk about that.

[exlude]

That's an excellent point. All religions have done some messed up shit. Muslims are doing it RIGHT NOW.

Who said they aren't doing it right now? I'm saying that these Islamic terrorist are not following Islam, and have a perverted view of jihad.

[01WhiteCobra]

Please send me a link or three about the popular uprising of the peaceful Muslims against the radical fundamentalists... I can't seem to find them anywhere.

Sorry, but didn't the US train some Iraqis to help fight the insurgents in Iraq? Are they not running around killing other Iraqis?

[utdbear]

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-11/29/article27.shtml

http://www.southjerseynews.com/faith/f040503a.htm


Not really an Islamic article, but pointful (I don't think that's a word) none the less:

http://www.geocities.com/bharatvarsha1947/January_2003/muslimsviolent.htm
Taken from your islamtoday.org link:

Ed Bradley: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the responsibility... Does not Islam, does not Allah require that Muslims police their own religion and rid themselves of extremists?

Hamza Yusuf: Yes, absolutely. It's an obligation for Muslims to root them out. And I think it is a jihad now for the Muslims in the Muslim country to rid themselves of this element.
CBS's 60 Minutes, September 30, 2001

If thats the truth, then Saddam's outing should have happened long before Bush got into office, Yassir Arafat should be gone, the Taliban should have never existed, and Iran's government should be gone. Yet the Americans are cleaning up.

[exlude]

Sorry, but didn't the US train some Iraqis to help fight the insurgents in Iraq? Are they not running around killing other Iraqis?

Wow, good point. Didn't think of that.

[exlude]

Taken from your islamtoday.org link:

Ed Bradley: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the responsibility... Does not Islam, does not Allah require that Muslims police their own religion and rid themselves of extremists?

Hamza Yusuf: Yes, absolutely. It's an obligation for Muslims to root them out. And I think it is a jihad now for the Muslims in the Muslim country to rid themselves of this element.
CBS's 60 Minutes, September 30, 2001

If thats the truth, then Saddam's outing should have happened long before Bush got into office, Yassir Arafat should be gone, the Taliban should have never existed, and Iran's government should be gone. Yet the Americans are cleaning up.


So you are saying that the common, normally peaceful citizens have the organization, money, and weaponry equal to the US...interesting point. I never thought they were so powerful! Nevermind that the US helped fund and helped put these people in power to help fight the communists.

[Dolomite]

It is when you down two Russian aircraft...

What about burning down a theatre?

What about looting a burning a person's home?

[AL P]

Who said they aren't doing it right now? I'm saying that these Islamic terrorist are not following Islam, and have a perverted view of jihad.

And just as I said above, the majority of practicing Muslims don't agree with you. If Muslims disagree with the radicals, then why aren't there any public displays of such? Where are the protests in the streets against such actions? you won't see them! Muslims who disagree are silent on the issue because they are afraid of what their radical neighbors will think of them. What does that tell you about the number of radicals? It isn't a low percentage, I will guarantee you that!

[46Tbird]

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-11/29/article27.shtml

http://www.southjerseynews.com/faith/f040503a.htm


Not really an Islamic article, but pointful (I don't think that's a word) none the less:

http://www.geocities.com/bharatvarsha1947/January_2003/muslimsviolent.htmDid you read those?

The first one is five condemnations of terrorism since 12/2001, all but one written by American Ph.Ds. Laughable.

The second one speaks of the wonderful joy of fasting during Ramadan. :confused:

The last one says that "it is meaningless at best, and dishonest at worst, to deny the threat to civilization coming from various Muslim countries by noting that most Muslims are not violent." EXACTLY my point. (italics are mine)


I would have hoped for better than that...

[AL P]

Sorry, but didn't the US train some Iraqis to help fight the insurgents in Iraq? Are they not running around killing other Iraqis?

Yea, like three of them or something.

Then a few of them have put on their police uniforms and showed up to work with bombs strapped to their bodies....OOOOOPPPSSSS.....

TamuZO6 knows all about it.

[46Tbird]

Sorry, but didn't the US train some Iraqis to help fight the insurgents in Iraq? Are they not running around killing other Iraqis?Yes they are, Allah bless them. ;)

[01WhiteCobra]

Yea, like three of them or something.

Then a few of them have put on their police uniforms and showed up to work with bombs strapped to their bodies....OOOOOPPPSSSS.....

TamuZO6 knows all about it.

Little more than three and dying just like Americans over there, fighting the same insurgents.

[utdbear]

Well, back in the late 1700s, the colonists didn't have the organization, money, or weaponry the British army had, yet they got the job done. We even got the French in on it to let them win one, although they stayed out about 100 yards at sea away from the action.

[Dolomite]

http://www.shamrock.internetdsl.pl/historia/IRA/34428-2638.jpg

Fucking Muslims!

Although those people are awfully white-skinned to be Muslim, hell they might even be Christian -- and terrorists!

[mikeb]

So you are saying that the common, normally peaceful citizens have the organization, money, and weaponry equal to the US...interesting point. I never thought they were so powerful! Nevermind that the US helped fund and helped put these people in power to help fight the communists.

It's clear that the muslim leaders and clerics DO have a considerable amount of power over the average muslim citizen in the middle east. None of these guys have spoken out in a noticeable way about or have distanced themselves from the terrorists activities. Their silence is deafening..... and condemming.

[exlude]

Did you read those?

The first one is five condemnations of terrorism since 12/03, all but one written by American Ph.Ds. Laughable.

The second one speaks of the wonderful joy of fasting during Ramadan. :confused:

The last one says that "it is meaningless at best, and dishonest at worst, to deny the threat to civilization coming from various Muslim countries by noting that most Muslims are not violent." EXACTLY my point. (italics are mine)


I would have hoped for better than that...

The first one is an organization of peaceful Muslims, POSTING ON THERE WEBSITE AGAINST VIOLENCE AND TERRORISM. Is that not what you wanted?

The second reinforces and reinforces and reinforces the enjoyment of peace the the Islam religion, on a personal account. Not an article against terrorism, but an article showing the mentality of a Muslim.

The third shows the misinterpretation of Jihad, and is another mainstream source showing that not all Muslims are violent and terrorist, and that ISLAM DOES NOT CALL FOR IT. That is exactly what you asked for.

The final one shows you that you DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE A MAJORITY OF VIOLENT EXTREMIST, for them to come to power and be dangerous. (A mentality of many of you, that they must all be violent and extremist for them to have a presence)We are not dealing with perfect democracies here.

[46Tbird]

Although those people are awfully white-skinned to be Muslim, hell they might even be Christian -- and terrorists!
They are terrorists! And their actions are denounced by Christian organizations when they happen, too..

[exlude]

Well, back in the late 1700s, the colonists didn't have the organization, money, or weaponry the British army had, yet they got the job done. We even got the French in on it to let them win one, although they stayed out about 100 yards at sea away from the action.

Oh, so you are saying that the Muslim extremist have a military presence half way across the world and are suffering from funding like the British were? Do you think all wars happen in the exact same way? Remember, they extremists do not have to cross a sea by a 3 months boat ride to be able to overpower their opposition (the common citizens in this case).

[Dolomite]

They are terrorists! And their actions are denounced by Christian organizations when they happen, too..

Ah yes, but they're fighting for independence.

Has any Christian groups denounced these people?

The Basques are a linguistically and culturally distinct Christian group...

[exlude]

And just as I said above, the majority of practicing Muslims don't agree with you. If Muslims disagree with the radicals, then why aren't there any public displays of such? Where are the protests in the streets against such actions? you won't see them! Muslims who disagree are silent on the issue because they are afraid of what their radical neighbors will think of them. What does that tell you about the number of radicals? It isn't a low percentage, I will guarantee you that!

I have never argued about their numbers, so this argument is irrelevant anyway. The fighters during the crusades didn't have much homeland opposition either, that doesn't make their acts perfectly Christian.

You are close though, they are indeed "afraid of what their radical neighbors will think of them." Not just that, but what their radical neighbors will DO to them.

My whole argument in the first place was in contrast to the title of this thread!
"Peace Lovin Muslims Strike Again!"
-These people "striking" are not the rightful practicers of Islam. They are extremists and bastardizing the traditional interpretations of the Quran.
"Anyone that says Islam is a religion of peace is fucking full of shit."
-I argue about the text and the basis of the religion, he argues about the current events of extremists who bastardized the Quran.

[utdbear]

Do you think it would have taken Saddam long to fold if 3 million Iraqis revolted? remember, his army surrendered to camera crews.

[46Tbird]

Ah yes, but they're fighting for independence.

Has any Christian groups denounced these people?Yes.
Praying Spanish Christians and missionary workers were among an estimated 11 million outraged and shocked people, more than a quarter of the nation's population, who marched Friday, March 12, in what was described as “the largest anti-terrorism marches in Spanish history.”

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s04030059.htm

Your turn. Show me the country where 11 million Muslims marched against Islamic terrorism.

[exlude]

Do you think it would have taken Saddam long to fold if 3 million Iraqis revolted? remember, his army surrendered to camera crews.

No I don't. But unfortunately the actions cannot come around just because people want them to. People feared Saddam and what his regime could do to them. Even planning something could get them killed. You do understand that most people do not see themselves as a force of 3 million, and as powerful. Saddam had the state military with him, the rich with him, the weapons with him, the larger corporations with him, the media with him. There are a lot of physical and mental intimidation factors that make it hard to organize and revolt.

It would be nice if those in the right could come together and revolt so simply, but we do not live in such a utopia.

[46Tbird]

My whole argument in the first place was in contrast to the title of this thread!
"Peace Lovin Muslims Strike Again!"
-These people "striking" are not the rightful practicers of Islam. They are extremists and bastardizing the traditional interpretations of the Quran.
"Anyone that says Islam is a religion of peace is fucking full of shit."
-I argue about the text and the basis of the religion, he argues about the current events of extremists who bastardized the Quran.Members of the religion are involved in 2/3 of the world's armed conflicts OF TODAY. How can you be honest and say that Islam is a religion of peace?

I don't care if the followers of Islam are following the Quran exactly. I don't care if most Muslims are peaceful. Taken as a whole, the followers of the religion are very un-peaceful.

[AL P]

I have never argued about their numbers, so this argument is irrelevant anyway. The fighters during the crusades didn't have much homeland opposition either, that doesn't make their acts perfectly Christian.

You are close though, they are indeed "afraid of what their radical neighbors will think of them." Not just that, but what their radical neighbors will DO to them.

My whole argument in the first place was in contrast to the title of this thread!
"Peace Lovin Muslims Strike Again!"
-These people "striking" are not the rightful practicers of Islam. They are extremists and bastardizing the traditional interpretations of the Quran.
"Anyone that says Islam is a religion of peace is fucking full of shit."
-I argue about the text and the basis of the religion, he argues about the current events of extremists who bastardized the Quran.

And my argument is that a lot more of them are extremists than everyone thinks, otherwise we'd see more protests from the entire community.

Furthermore, the lack of outrage and the lack of action on the part of the entire muslim community makes these people, for all intents and purposes, gutless. Most notably because they refuse to stand up for what they know is right. Why should I care if I offend the sensibilities of someone who refuses to stand up for me? What is my incentive to label some of them right and some of them wrong when 99% of them lack the human decency to stand up and put a stop to absolute barbarism?

[exlude]

Members of the religion are involved in 2/3 of the world's armed conflicts OF TODAY. How can you be honest and say that Islam is a religion of peace?

I don't care if the followers of Islam are following the Quran exactly. I don't care if most Muslims are peaceful. Taken as a whole, the followers of the religion are very un-peaceful.

I agree that followers of the religion tend to be the more unpeaceful of today's religion. I also agree that this extremist view is growing in popularity and have a sizable following. I HAVE NEVER ARGUED OTHERWISE.

But many of you think that because of these followers, they are defining the religion. This thought process will tend toward a generalization of all Muslims and that they all have such tendencies (prejudice). THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS: your original statement was incorrect. Islam, as it was written and defined, is a PEACEFUL RELIGION. You might not "care" how it is supposed to be, you might not "care" what your statement entailed, but that is fact. Your statements were wrong.

[utdbear]

And my argument is that a lot more of them are extremists than everyone thinks, otherwise we'd see more protests from the entire community.

If the majority are extremists, then does that make the extremist philosophy mainstream?

EDIT: philosophically speaking of course

[exlude]

And my argument is that a lot more of them are extremists than everyone thinks, otherwise we'd see more protests from the entire community.

Furthermore, the lack of outrage and the lack of action on the part of the entire muslim community makes these people, for all intents and purposes, gutless. Most notably because they refuse to stand up for what they know is right. Why should I care if I offend the sensibilities of someone who refuses to stand up for me? What is my incentive to label some of them right and some of them wrong when 99% of them lack the human decency to stand up and put a stop to absolute barbarism?


Well, my incentive to understand who is right and who is wrong isto better prevent myself from being ignorant and from being prejudice (I am not calling you either). I'm not telling anyone to care, maybe just understand.

[Dolomite]

Your turn. Show me the country where 11 million Muslims marched against Islamic terrorism.

My original post was a joke, what incited me to reply was your Checnya post. Correlation does not equal causation.

[46Tbird]

But many of you think that because of these followers, they are defining the religion. Yes, of course I am. :confused:

Don't followers define the religion?

I'm making broad generalizations based on the broad actions of Muslims. There are nearly 2 billion of them on the planet, I'm not going to write a paragraph about each individual.

When more of them start speaking out against "the headliners" (i.e, terrorists) then I'll change my tune. Until then, I will assume the majority agrees with the actions of the few.

[AL P]

Well, my incentive to understand who is right and who is wrong isto better prevent myself from being ignorant and from being prejudice (I am not calling you either). I'm not telling anyone to care, maybe just understand.

Oh I understand completely and I didn't say that I don't judge some of them right and some of them wrong. I do. I try to be tolerant. My question was, what is my incentive? Maybe you don't see where I am headed.

You see....if people have no incentive to label some of them right and some of them wrong then you get pure prejudice. Situations like that bring about genocide and other horrible crimes. By not speaking out, the Muslim community is digging its own grave. People are going to get sick of this shit after a while and once they are sick of it the Muslims are going to have something real to complain about.

[01WhiteCobra]

When more of them start speaking out against "the headliners" (i.e, terrorists) then I'll change my tune. Until then, I will assume the majority agrees with the actions of the few.

When was the last time you marched against the KKK? Do you support racism?

When was the last time you marched against the abortion clinic bombings? Do you support their actions?

How many marches were you in when McVeigh bombed in OK City? I guess you condone the use of explosives in blowing up Federal building when you disagree with them.

[46Tbird]

If the KKK and Christian Fundamentalists were terrorizing the globe, then yes, I think it would be appropriate to rise up and protest so that it was widely known that they did not have unanimous support from peace loving individuals such as myself.

[01WhiteCobra]

If the KKK and Christian Fundamentalists were terrorizing the globe, then yes, I think it would be appropriate to rise up and protest so that it was widely known that they did not have unanimous support from peace loving individuals such as myself.


Ah... ok, local terrorism = support. global terrorism = no good.

[46Tbird]

No, international recognition of my religion as supporters of terrorism = no good.

Isolated incidents by the lunatic fringe = unavoidable.

[exlude]

Key here: as it was written and defined, is a PEACEFUL RELIGION.


Granted. Agreed. It was written and defined as such. However, how is it being practiced? What is it's portrayal? There is very rarely a mention of an terroristic attack in which the "muslim" tag is not inserted. It is in fact true that muslim has become synonymous with terrorism.

This is the point that you seemingly cannot grasp.


Just because it is a mainstream tag, does not mean it is always right. That is a point MANY people seeminly cannot grasp.

I hear you people bitch about the lying liberal media all the time, but you follow it in this case?

Estimates of the total number of Muslims in the world vary greatly:
bullet 0.700 billion or more, Barnes & Noble Encyclopedia 1993
bullet 0.817 billion, The Universal Almanac (1996)
bullet 0.951 billion, The Cambridge Factfinder (1993)
bullet 1.100 billion, The World Almanac (1997)
bullet 1.200 billion, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic relations)

I'm trying to find an approximate number of the "extremists", but they are definetely they minority. Just because they are all you see on TV does not make them the majority.

"The only good Muslims are most Muslims... The overwhelming majority of Muslims are peace-loving, hospitable people."
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/islamterrorism.html

Extremists are found among people of all ideologies. They do not represent the faiths, nor are they the model sample for judging people of faith.

So Fox, what I really seemingly cannot grasp is how seemingly educated people such as your self are allowing a minority to define this religion.

[exlude]

Would it be fair to say that the Christian religion is a violent relgion because of the actions of David Karesh?

[exlude]

Got them, numbers on extremists.

20% of Muslims consider themselves to be Fundamentalists.
The majority of these Fundamentalists (16 to 18 percent) pursue their goal through peaceful political and educational means.
2-4% of this 20% advocate violence.

SO, .4% - .8% of the entire worlds Muslim population are the extremist type.

THAT IS A TINY PERCENT OF THE TOTAL MUSLIM POPULATION. And that defines the entire Muslim population?

[mikeb]

Just because it is a mainstream tag, does not mean it is always right. That is a point MANY people seeminly cannot grasp.


And here in a nutshell is the problem for the muslim community. IF the peaceful segment of the muslim community does not do more to distance themselves from the actions of the extremists THEN perception becomes reality. As Al P says - they are digging their grave. It's on the news every night.

[Denny]

It is so easy to point a finger... just as easy as it is to make an excuse.

Do you people really believe that these terrorists and insurgents are actually acting upon their love for Allah? Or that he has inspired them and they're carrying out his will?

Do you think the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades were all part of God's divine plan?

If that's the way you think, then you're brainwashed worse than those sorry saps! In fact, I don't see a difference between them and you. If these last few years acts of terrorism were because of Muslim beliefs, then we'd definately have our work cut out for us by eliminating a whole lot more people than you think. Just because of their claim, the label shouldn't stick. Anyone with a half of mind should know that the true core of both Muslim and Christianity is about love. They even have the same God as a root of all existance. The God of Abraham, Issac, etc. For you closed-minded "intellectuals" who can't grasp the true meaning of the Bible, nowhere does it state the He is pleased with the loss of anyone's life. I am a strong believer in Christ and it sickens me to think that anyone can use religion as an excuse to do harm to another person.

[Schargedcobra97]

It is so easy to point a finger... just as easy as it is to make an excuse.

Do you people really believe that these terrorists and insurgents are actually acting upon their love for Allah? Or that he has inspired them and they're carrying out his will?

Do you think the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades were all part of God's divine plan?

If that's the way you think, then you're brainwashed worse than those sorry saps! In fact, I don't see a difference between them and you. If these last few years acts of terrorism were because of Muslim beliefs, then we'd definately have our work cut out for us by eliminating a whole lot more people than you think. Just because of their claim, the label shouldn't stick. Anyone with a half of mind should know that the true core of both Muslim and Christianity is about love. They even have the same God as a root of all existance. The God of Abraham, Issac, etc. For you closed-minded "intellectuals" who can't grasp the true meaning of the Bible, nowhere does it state the He is pleased with the loss of anyone's life. I am a strong believer in Christ and it sickens me to think that anyone can use religion as an excuse to do harm to another person.

the difference is.. again as AL P said there are minimum (LOL probably none) muslims fighting against there own people... atleast with the christians other christians fought against them.. BECAUSE IT WAS WRONG

[Denny]

the difference is.. again as AL P said there are minimum (LOL probably none) muslims fighting against there own people... atleast with the christians other christians fought against them.. BECAUSE IT WAS WRONG

Claiming to be and actually being one isn't the same. And yes there are "muslims" fighting against Muslims. They just don't use a pathetic excuse like religion when they do it.

[01WhiteCobra]

No, international recognition of my religion as supporters of terrorism = no good.

Isolated incidents by the lunatic fringe = unavoidable.


No...

international recognition by the media I watch = no good.

[01WhiteCobra]

It is so easy to point a finger... just as easy as it is to make an excuse.

Do you people really believe that these terrorists and insurgents are actually acting upon their love for Allah? Or that he has inspired them and they're carrying out his will?

Do you think the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades were all part of God's divine plan?

If that's the way you think, then you're brainwashed worse than those sorry saps! In fact, I don't see a difference between them and you. If these last few years acts of terrorism were because of Muslim beliefs, then we'd definately have our work cut out for us by eliminating a whole lot more people than you think. Just because of their claim, the label shouldn't stick. Anyone with a half of mind should know that the true core of both Muslim and Christianity is about love. They even have the same God as a root of all existance. The God of Abraham, Issac, etc. For you closed-minded "intellectuals" who can't grasp the true meaning of the Bible, nowhere does it state the He is pleased with the loss of anyone's life. I am a strong believer in Christ and it sickens me to think that anyone can use religion as an excuse to do harm to another person.

Very well said, my man.

[01WhiteCobra]

the difference is.. again as AL P said there are minimum (LOL probably none) muslims fighting against there own people... atleast with the christians other christians fought against them.. BECAUSE IT WAS WRONG

You are so full of shit, I can't imagine any other eye color but brown.

[exlude]

the difference is.. again as AL P said there are minimum (LOL probably none) muslims fighting against there own people... atleast with the christians other christians fought against them.. BECAUSE IT WAS WRONG

The Iraqi police force numbers 100,000. Those are mostly Muslims fighting against the Islamic terrorists.

There is also an Iraqi civilian group who call themselves "The Salvation Army" (no relation to the nonprofit org) who released a tape a while back threatening to capture and kill the resistors in Iraq. Not sure of their numbers though.

[46Tbird]

Not only are Muslims being trained as peacekeepers in the region, they are being targeted by the extremists for doing so.


I think that will ultimately be the downfall of terrorists in the Muslim world. There is too much Muslim-on-Muslim violence and at some point the peaceful Muslims will have had enough.

Reading my posts, I was in a feisty mood yesterday. :D I still feel that peace loving Muslims could do more to curtail the spread of violence.. but it will take internal pressures to make that happen. GWB can stomp out all the dirtbags he wants, but it will take a shift in philosophy (like what happened in the Christian religion) to remove Islamic extremism entirely.

[Denny]

Question: What were the serbs doing a few years back. Bosnia... Ring a bell? Answer: They were killing christians, if I recall correctly. That was cleansing based on religion, no? Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what much more knowledgable people have explained to me, this was ethnic/religious cleansing based in at least part on their beliefs. Enlighten me.


As for your saying that 'All muslims are terrorists, period?' Were that the case, I wouldn't be buying my "devil water" from and having the discussions on this topic and others that I do with my muslim friend in Plano, as he would likely have killed me by now... :rolleyes:

Where did you get that, anyway? If you got that from my post you are sadly mistaken...

The Serbs, too, were just using it as an excuse.And please, don't pull that "I have a Muslim freind" card... That's just like someone complaining about another race and starting off, "I'm not a racist, but..." or, "My best friend is a..."

And yes, you'll buy your "devil water" from them... they own you and you're too proud to admit it. It's OK, though. We all know better.

[Denny]

Whatever... I was talking about petroleum products, not the person behind the counter selling you beer. You twisted things I said and put two comments together. You were using an acquaintance you had as a crutch to make a racist statement towards the whole group of people that owns everybody because of their natural resources.

How am I judging anyone?!?! I'm just stating the obvious prejudice statements in here? Do you really read everything, or do you just try to make a quck, half-whitty comment?

[Denny]

No Denny, it was not a racist statement. It was an illustrative statement on how if all muslims were terrorists, he would be one as well, and he's not. Just because you say it was, does not make it so. Compehension of the actual words and the context in which they are used is key here.

And btw, he doesn't sell any petroleum products, so the second portion of your statement is also groundless. Gas had zip to do with the conversation and without some sort of clue from you, we had no way of determining that you were throwing in a tangent. But "we" know this now...

And do you yourself really read everything in here, or do you in turn just try to make quick, half witted comments?

Dude, you were the one who put quotes around me saying that I said "all Muslims were terrorists" when I was on here defending the opposite.

As for your saying that 'All muslims are terrorists, period?' Were that the case, I wouldn't be buying my "devil water" from and having the discussions on this topic and others that I do with my muslim friend in Plano, as he would likely have killed me by now...

Remember this? Find somewhere where I said that...

[talisman]

Good thread.

[Denny]

It was a rhetorical "you" and you know that I was talking to those who felt that the terrorist acts were because of people doing it for the Muslim faith. You just wanted to get in and say "not me!" If you don't believe that, then I was obviously not talking to you in particular. But I guess you just answer to "you" all the time, anyway.

Ya, all those other countries produce oil, but would it make a world impact if they weren't? Sorry man, those countries don't compare to the world's largest pool of oil, which is found under the dirt I'm sitting on. And ya, "they" know how much oil "they" have and how the rest of the world needs "their" resource.

[Denny]

What the heck are you doing in Canada, anyways? :confused: :rolleyes:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/4/20/201246/566

OK... how about the world's largest "recoverable oil" pool. I wouldn't consider it as a resource since it would cost about $280 a barrel for the consumer, if we were to go by today's % of profitability.


On faith, war, and those who engage...
http://www.nobeliefs.com/terrorism.htm

"The Koran and Holy War (Jihad)

According to legend, in 623 C.E., Muhammad, the founder of Islam, gathered a group of about three hundred followers and led them in a mounted attack against a caravan guarded by almost a thousand men in a place called Badr. In the battle of Badr, Muhammad lost only fourteen men in his first decisive military victory. He had no trouble from then on in recruiting future converts to join him. After two more years of fighting, Muhammad assembled an army of ten thousand strong, an army that fought for God and His prophet. They took Mecca with no trouble. Thus Mecca (also the birthplace of Muhammad) became the holiest place in all Islam. In 630 C.E., Muhammad went to Medina where he concentrated on setting down his revelations for the last remaining years of his life. His revelations came known as the Koran (Quran), a book of God's commands as to belief, prayer, conduct and matters of law. When Muhammad died in 632 his friend and father-in-law, Abu Bekr, became the leader of Islam and the first caliph, or "successor," but a rift in the movement began as members started to drift away after realizing that there lived no Prophet to authorize their military actions. Abu Bekr selected a younger more vigorous man for the task, a skilled fighter named Khalid ibn-al-Walid, whose string of victories for the faith earned him the tittle of "Sword of Allah." Khalid swiftly defeated all of the enemies of Islam in Arabia in the first jihad, or War for the Faith. [Robinson] Thus Islam began, just as did orthodox Christianity, with violence and holy terror. The Koran has served as the guide and justification for violent acts against infidels and oppressors ever since.

[Note, in 1998 when the U.S. sent cruise missiles in an attempt to destroy Osama bin Laden, two of the terrorist camps went by the name of the Al Badr camp and the Khalid bin Walid camp.]"


Damn, but that's so peaceful I don't know what to think about it... :p Is that article accurate?

The Koran, itself, is what the religion is based on. It isn't based off the fighting like it's "presumed" just because the book is mixed into the story. Every rational person should agree that sometimes fighting is the only answer, but if you read the Koran, it's obviously isn't what it's all about. Nobeliefs.com is all about trying to work a story to make it sound like the religion is the bad guy. The Koran is about devotion to God, not about slaughtering people (both believers and non-believers).


I'm not there, and consequently not exposed to the culture to the degree that you evidently are, so will not profess to understand what the 25,000,000+/- (dependent on source) people in that region think when they do what they do...

Iraq
Population:
25,374,691 (July 2004 est.)
Age structure:
0-14 years: 40.3% (male 5,198,966; female 5,039,173)
15-64 years: 56.7% (male 7,280,167; female 7,094,688)
65 years and over: 3% (male 357,651; female 404,046) (2004 est.)
Median age:
total: 19.2 years
male: 19.1 years
female: 19.3 years (2004 est.)

I too had a different opinion about the Iraqi people as a whole before I got here, but after almost 5 months out here, I have made some really good friends who are ashamed of their fellow countrymen who use their religion as an excuse to cause such harm. It's really hard to keep an open mind about these people without beginning to stereotype and prejudging. Especially moments like this morning when 9 mortars fell inside our base and I had to spend a couple hours in a dirt bunker. If it wasn't for my personal relationship with Christ, I don't know where my position would be with these people, but I'm sure a lot of it would be hatred. I know that it's a different religion, but I also know that it preaches of loving one another and it's been confirmed through Muslims I know as well. Like I said before, terrorism can be blamed on a lot of things, but it all just boils down to plain 'ol hatred... nothing more.

[46Tbird]

Like I said before, terrorism can be blamed on a lot of things, but it all just boils down to plain 'ol hatred... nothing more.Good call.

I'll work on curtailing my prejudices. Maybe God would be a little happier if I did. You be safe Dennis, man I hate hearing about shit like mortar rounds going off on your base.

[AL P]

Got them, numbers on extremists.

20% of Muslims consider themselves to be Fundamentalists.
The majority of these Fundamentalists (16 to 18 percent) pursue their goal through peaceful political and educational means.
2-4% of this 20% advocate violence.

SO, .4% - .8% of the entire worlds Muslim population are the extremist type.

THAT IS A TINY PERCENT OF THE TOTAL MUSLIM POPULATION. And that defines the entire Muslim population?

The 20% are the ones secretly funneling money to the .4 to .8%. Those are the ones that we need to worry about.

I'd also like to see a comparison of these numbers to how Christians classify themselves.

[Pro Trash]

The 20% are the ones secretly funneling money to the .4 to .8%. Those are the ones that we need to worry about.

I'd also like to see a comparison of these numbers to how Christians classify themselves.

Al my new setup came in this weekend you haven't forgotten about our race have you?

[talisman]

Excellent! I tie into it with someone and Eric interjects yet another witty one liner.
What is it with you, anyway? You don't seem overly eager to get into it, yet when someone else does you have wonderfully inane comments like "this thread rocks" or "good thread". You want to egg it on, yet you don't seem to want to get dirty.

Interesting to say the least. :rolleyes:


I didn't read this thread until yesterday, by which point every point I would have made myself has already been made by other people. I found it informative and chose to give ALL you guys kudos for many good points on both apects. [shrug] You need a blankie?

[AL P]

Al my new setup came in this weekend you haven't forgotten about our race have you?

Don't you have to have "the new setup" in the car and running before we race?

[46Tbird]

My new setup is still ingots in the Edelbrock parking lot...

[Pro Trash]

Don't you have to have "the new setup" in the car and running before we race?

Well seeing that the old setup is currently going into my best friends convertible I would have to say yes. I am looking for an oil pan and have to build my new 3 inch exhaust. Once I complete these two things the car will be up and going. One visit to the track for test and tune and I'll be ready. Also when we race this will be a no excuse race. This means no matter who wins the other man needs to be man enough to just shake hands and call it a loss or be respectful in the win. I take my racing very serious and if I loose no matter what the cause I take it as such a loss. If I win I feel I deserve full credit as does the other person if they should do such, agreed?

[utdbear]

I say if Pro Trash wins, Al has to put a Kerry bumper sticker on his car, and if Al wins, Pro Trash puts a W sticker on his until election day.

[46Tbird]

Alan don't give a fuck if you beat him..

[Denny]

I sorry. Denny had just made me feel bad and I was striking out at whoever was close by.

You won by default. :D

I bring out the best in everyone ;)

[Pro Trash]

I say if Pro Trash wins, Al has to put a Kerry bumper sticker on his car, and if Al wins, Pro Trash puts a W sticker on his until election day.

That is a good one,LOL