Can you believe in Evolution and be a Christian?? [Archive]

MoonDog

03-21-2004, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8
So when I went to see The Passion weeks ago, I was sitting next to these two guys and one of them brought up evolution . . . the other says "You believe in evolution and you're seeing this movie???"

My GOD!!! How can people be so close minded!!!! I'm sorry, but Genisis (sp?) is a good story, but honestly, evolution makes alot more sense. It's doesn't make me less of a christian for thinking so. IMO: Evolution is just God's doing.
I dont buy into the lie of evolution but I understand where you are coming. There are many sincere christians who believe in evolution, I dont feel it has anything to do with a persons salvation.

I will say this however, when God said that He was going to make man in His image, He did not create a slug crawling out of a cesspool, He created a modern man with an intelligence.
Originally posted by whiteboy
its all bs story!!
Jeremy if you dont watch your mouth in here I will see about getting you banned from in here. I am aware that your from Garland but that is no excuse, pick up a dictionary and learn some real english. All your doing is proving how ignorant you are.

Who Needs 8

03-21-2004, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
I will say this however, when God said that He was going to make man in His image, He did not create a slug crawling out of a cesspool, He created a modern man with an intelligence.

How do you explain Dinosaurs and other pre-historic animals what lived long before Humans??? You think that's all made up??? lol

MoonDog

03-22-2004, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8
How do you explain Dinosaurs and other pre-historic animals what lived long before Humans??? You think that's all made up??? lol
They assume that they lived long before man. Everything that science comes up with in regards to evolution and dating is based on assumptions. If these asumptions were proven to be false then the whole world of evolution would crumble. We have gone round and round on dating methods and I really dont want to get into it again.

Yes, I believe there were dinosaurs but I also believe that man was here at the same time. There have been found dinosaur footprints and human footprints within the same layer of rock. It has been posted many times that dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible, "Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee". God saids that this large animal, which happens to discribe no animal alive today, was made at the same time as man.

I am not trying to say that believing in evolution is a bad or wicked thing. I am just saying that if God made man in His own image then it is hard for me to believe that God made a hapless slug and told this slug to be fruitfull and multiply and subdue the earth and have dominion over the fish, birds and every other living thing on earth, but your going to have to wait 4 billion years until you evolve into something more productible.

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 09:30 AM

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8

My GOD!!! How can people be so close minded!!!! I'm sorry, but Genisis (sp?) is a good story, but honestly, evolution makes alot more sense. It's doesn't make me less of a christian for thinking so. IMO: Evolution is just God's doing. Micro-Evolution is God's doing and it dosent go against Genisis. So where is the conflict?

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog

Jeremy if you dont watch your mouth in here I will see about getting you banned from in here. I am aware that your from Garland but that is no excuse, pick up a dictionary and learn some real english. All your doing is proving how ignorant you are. Ditto, if that is all you can contribute, then dont bother contributing at all

Josh

03-23-2004, 04:12 PM

Do you believe in an original sin?

Do you believe that death is a result of this sin?

So there was no death prior to orignal sin?

If there were no death nor sickness prior to sin than how did the evolutionary process take place?

Is evolution not dependant on millions of years of death, mutations, suffering, and mistakes?

Is this how God creates? With death, mutations, suffering, and mistakes?

Was Jesus a liar when he spoke of the Creation, or Adam, or the Flood?

Was he mistaken when he refered to himself as the second Adam?

Although the Creation account is not essential for salvation, I personally feel that you are on dangerous ground when you suggest that the Bible is flawed or allegorical.

Josh

03-23-2004, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8
How do you explain Dinosaurs and other pre-historic animals what lived long before Humans??? You think that's all made up??? lol

You believe that dinosaurs are a million gajillion years old. LOL

;)

four5.0snomore

03-23-2004, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Josh
million gajillion
;)

For those that do not know...

million gajillion = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000

LOL - I like that Josh! :D

MoonDog

03-23-2004, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Josh
You believe that dinosaurs are a million gajillion years old. LOL

;)
I thought they were closer to quadruple-million-gajillion-bajillion-super-duper-blooper-thousand years old? :confused: Are you trying to confuse me?

dan962000

03-23-2004, 05:28 PM

Just because you believe the we evolve or more precisely adapt to our environment does not mean you believe that we came from a slug. God gave us the ability to find ways to survive. Genetically as well as mentally.

MoonDog

03-23-2004, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by dan962000
Just because you believe the we evolve or more precisely adapt to our environment does not mean you believe that we came from a slug. God gave us the ability to find ways to survive. Genetically as well as mentally.
And what you are speaking of is micro-evolution. This indeed does happen.

Macro-evolution does not happen and has never been proven to happen yet people are taught that it is a fact and a common accurance. That is what we are talking about here.

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
I thought they were closer to quadruple-million-gajillion-bajillion-super-duper-blooper-thousand years old? :confused: Are you trying to confuse me? LOL at you guys :)

JackFlash19

03-24-2004, 12:29 AM

evolution is gay

Who Needs 8

03-24-2004, 03:21 PM

I guess you people don't believe that 2+2=4!!! Because everything in the Universe(sp?) can be proven mathmatically. But I guess you guys were also the same people that failed algebra I three times in high school.

All that doesn't mean I'm a non-believer.

My Mother is a retired high school Algebra I and II teacher, so I know those types well.

The Punisher

03-24-2004, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8
Because everything in the Universe(sp?) can be proven mathmatically. Prove it then...

dan962000

03-24-2004, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8
I guess you people don't believe that 2+2=4!!! Because everything in the Universe(sp?) can be proven mathmatically. But I guess you guys were also the same people that failed algebra I three times in high school.

All that doesn't mean I'm a non-believer.

My Mother is a retired high school Algebra I and II teacher, so I know those types well.
Where you are getting that information?

Josh

03-24-2004, 06:14 PM

WyLdMuStAnGT95

03-24-2004, 06:28 PM

I just cant wait till we find some sort of life on another planet. That will throw some people in the religious hippocracy for a loop. I have to agree with some people in here in that I tend to mix the two together..theology, and evolution. I think we are too complex, and everything works too well for us to have JUST been an evolutionary mistake. BUT I do believe that we are a stage in evolution which was controlled and created by God. We may have even been one of his "fuck ups" what if there are 1,000,000 other planets in the universe with life like us..I think there could, and SHOULD be...awful waste of space when you look at it that way if we are the ONLY beings around. ( besides animals etc..) The bible and all of the history of God and Jesus and the like was written BY MAN though..and whos to say they didnt mix up their own spice here in there? I dont trust people...and you CANT trust people. I just put my faith towards knowing someone is watching and I have alot of questions to ask when I get to MY final destination.

MoonDog

03-24-2004, 06:33 PM

01WhiteCobra

03-24-2004, 08:50 PM

The answer is 42

Who Needs 8

03-24-2004, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
The answer is 42

We have a weiner

What I ment by bringing up the mathmatics was that Carbon Dating is mathmatically proven, which is why Dinosaurs DID live before humans, UNLESS we just haven't found human remains to prove otherwise.

Josh

03-25-2004, 04:24 AM

First of all algebra is based on mathematical facts which are absolute. What algebra is not based on are assumptions. Assumptions are what you are deriving your facts on with Carbon-14. To have an accurate dating method with Carbon-14 one must first know the ratio of C14 to that of C12. We know what that ratio is presently, roughly 1 C14 atom for every Trillion C12 atoms. What we do not know is if this ratio has been constant through out history. This is the assumption that makes C14 unreliable to those who believe that this ratio has been constant. It is very accurate with in say, about 4000 years, but not beyond that.

Second, Carbon-14 dating is only used to date objects that are within thousands of years old. It only has a half life of 5700 years, so you can't possibly use it to date something millions of years old. To get a false reading of millions or billions of years old you make a bad assumption using Potassium/Argon.

Josh

03-25-2004, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by WyLdMuStAnGT95
I just cant wait till we find some sort of life on another planet. That will throw some people in the religious hippocracy for a loop. I have to agree with some people in here in that I tend to mix the two together..theology, and evolution. I think we are too complex, and everything works too well for us to have JUST been an evolutionary mistake. BUT I do believe that we are a stage in evolution which was controlled and created by God. We may have even been one of his "fuck ups" what if there are 1,000,000 other planets in the universe with life like us..I think there could, and SHOULD be...awful waste of space when you look at it that way if we are the ONLY beings around. ( besides animals etc..) The bible and all of the history of God and Jesus and the like was written BY MAN though..and whos to say they didnt mix up their own spice here in there? I dont trust people...and you CANT trust people. I just put my faith towards knowing someone is watching and I have alot of questions to ask when I get to MY final destination.

Man you don't know what you want to believe do you. LOL :)

Let me get this straight, you don't want to believe what the Bible says because it was written by man but you are willing to believe in evolution? :confused: You do know that evolution was not handed down from God right? It is also written down by the hand of a man. So which will you chose; something written by man as dictated by GOD or, an unproven erroneous theory written by man alone?

As for ET. Not saying it is impossible that life may exists outside of our planet but it is very unlikely. The Bible simply does not address it. However, I can say with the utmost certainty that there is no intelligent life out there.

The Punisher

03-25-2004, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8
We have a weiner

Carbon Dating is mathmatically proven, Yes, based upon assumptions. You need to read up more on carbon dating.

Hawse771

03-26-2004, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Josh
Do you believe in an original sin?

Do you believe that death is a result of this sin?

So there was no death prior to orignal sin?

If there were no death nor sickness prior to sin than how did the evolutionary process take place?

Is evolution not dependant on millions of years of death, mutations, suffering, and mistakes?

Is this how God creates? With death, mutations, suffering, and mistakes?

Was Jesus a liar when he spoke of the Creation, or Adam, or the Flood?

Was he mistaken when he refered to himself as the second Adam?

Although the Creation account is not essential for salvation, I personally feel that you are on dangerous ground when you suggest that the Bible is flawed or allegorical.

No offense but you do know that man has changed the bible over the years right..the most widely accepted version of the bible was constructed by King James...and i wouldnt doubt that he changed stuff in it to suit himself...I would also like to know, what makes you guys so sure your religion is correct compared to another who believes in one "higher being"..just some food for thought. Can you prove your god more right than another religion who also has prophets and all that..

MoonDog

03-26-2004, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
No offense but you do know that man has changed the bible over the years right..the most widely accepted version of the bible was constructed by King James...and i wouldnt doubt that he changed stuff in it to suit himself...I would also like to know, what makes you guys so sure your religion is correct compared to another who believes in one "higher being"..just some food for thought. Can you prove your god more right than another religion who also has prophets and all that..
And no offense to you but you did know that the sections of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were found in Qumran dating back to around 500 BC read exactly as the KJV that was written over 2000 years later, right? So to say that man has changed the bible over the years to suit himself is stating something that is incorrect and without basis.

What kind of "proof" are you looking for? I guess it really doesn't matter since no matter what we say as "proof", not you nor anyone else is going to believe. A person will only believe when the Holy Spirit draws him to do so.

Hawse771

03-26-2004, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
And no offense to you but you did know that the sections of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were found in Qumran dating back to around 500 BC read exactly as the KJV that was written over 2000 years later, right? So to say that man has changed the bible over the years to suit himself is stating something that is incorrect and without basis.

What kind of "proof" are you looking for? I guess it really doesn't matter since no matter what we say as "proof", not you nor anyone else is going to believe. A person will only believe when the Holy Spirit draws him to do so.

this just goes to show how ignorant you are..did i say i didnt believe..i actually believe in god so you must be the poster child for downsyndrome cause all i was doin was sparking some debate..so please dont try and preach to me about "proof" when you have no idea where i stand. All im saying is you dont know that EVERY SINGLE word in the bible is gods word or what was added ok..and you still managed to not answer any of the good questions i asked..how do you knwo your religion is right..have you studied IN DEPTH all of the other world religions..cause i bet they say the exact same htings you say about ancient scrolls found and what not..so try and think "outside the box" and not be so ignorant

The Punisher

03-26-2004, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
this just goes to show how ignorant you are..did i say i didnt believe..i actually believe in god so you must be the poster child for downsyndrome cause all i was doin was sparking some debate..so please dont try and preach to me about "proof" when you have no idea where i stand. All im saying is you dont know that EVERY SINGLE word in the bible is gods word or what was added ok..and you still managed to not answer any of the good questions i asked..how do you knwo your religion is right..have you studied IN DEPTH all of the other world religions..cause i bet they say the exact same htings you say about ancient scrolls found and what not..so try and think "outside the box" and not be so ignorant Sounds like your doing the preaching...

dan962000

03-26-2004, 05:29 PM

Who Needs 8

03-26-2004, 08:59 PM

Assumptions Assumptions Assumptions . . . . You guys DO realize that it is only ASSUMED that the bible is the Word of God, right???

Is there Proof otherwise???

MoonDog

03-27-2004, 12:16 PM

Hawse771

03-27-2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
You just proved your ignorance by your intellegent reply, grow up. Young punk kids. :rolleyes:

Yes maybe i should reply with intellegent replies like yours
Originally posted by MoonDog
I thought they were closer to quadruple-million-gajillion-bajillion-super-duper-blooper-thousand years old? Are you trying to confuse me?

now please shut up and stop acting all high and intelligent cause the fact is you assumed i dont believe in god and went on saying how theres nothing you can do to convince me when infact i do believe and i do follow one religion. i merely tried asking you for your reasons in believing in yours and you obviously cant tell me so maybe you need to spend some more time figuring that out..

MoonDog

03-27-2004, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
Yes maybe i should reply with intellegent replies like yours

now please shut up and stop acting all high and intelligent cause the fact is you assumed i dont believe in god and went on saying how theres nothing you can do to convince me when infact i do believe and i do follow one religion. i merely tried asking you for your reasons in believing in yours and you obviously cant tell me so maybe you need to spend some more time figuring that out..

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/images/smilies/lmbo.gif

I never assumed anything. You are the one assuming. You said you wanted proof,

"I would also like to know, what makes you guys so sure your religion is correct compared to another who believes in one "higher being"..just some food for thought. Can you prove your god more right than another religion who also has prophets and all that.."

Your statements imply that you do not believe. "What makes you guys so sure", Can you prove your god". Are these questions from a believer?

I said that there is nothing that I can say or do to prove to you or anyone else that there is a God, only the Spirit of God can draw you to him. I can show you that God exists but unless the Spirit draws you, you wont believe. That is a true statement whether you believe it or not. There is no assumptions on my part.

Anyone can "believe and follow one religion". My question to you mister smarty pants. Is Jesus Christ the Lord of you life?

lowthreeohz

03-28-2004, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by MoonDog
[IMG] Is Jesus Christ the Lord of you life?

no way jose.

Hawse771

03-28-2004, 05:15 AM

Originally posted by MoonDog
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/images/smilies/lmbo.gif

I never assumed anything. You are the one assuming. You said you wanted proof,

"I would also like to know, what makes you guys so sure your religion is correct compared to another who believes in one "higher being"..just some food for thought. Can you prove your god more right than another religion who also has prophets and all that.."

Your statements imply that you do not believe. "What makes you guys so sure", Can you prove your god". Are these questions from a believer?

I said that there is nothing that I can say or do to prove to you or anyone else that there is a God, only the Spirit of God can draw you to him. I can show you that God exists but unless the Spirit draws you, you wont believe. That is a true statement whether you believe it or not. There is no assumptions on my part.

Anyone can "believe and follow one religion". My question to you mister smarty pants. Is Jesus Christ the Lord of you life?

SIGH..i guess ill say it one more time and maybe it will sink in..I WAS ASKING THE DANG QUESTIONS TO SPARK DEBATE AND MAKE YOU THINK A LITTLE. so please go back and reread what i wrote the first time...notice how i put "just some food for thought" And for your information i am lutheran...so to your last question yes. All i wanted to know from all of you is how do you know your religion is right compared to lets say Mormans, Jews, Muslims..etc And you ASSUMED i was not christian by me asking..so stop trying to say you didnt cause go back and look at your response to me i believe it was somethin along the lines of "nothing i can say will convince you non believers." so yes you did assume i do not believe in god so please dont back track and change your story..you were wrong so face it. Ill think twice before trying to start a debate in this forum again as it is not a "RELIGION" discussion forum as it states..it is a you're wrong unless you are christian forum and were gonna beat it into your heads cause we think were better type deal...so watch how many people you tell are going to hell and what not because not everyone follows your beliefs..if you cant deal with it then this section of the board will come down as it is not a CHRISTIAN forum..it is for all religions..so dont think you own the place

and just fyi this is not all directed at you moondog just the first part..the last part was for whoever i noticed was going on in the guidelines thread telling people they will burn in hell and what not..

MoonDog

03-28-2004, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Hawse771
SIGH..i guess ill say it one more time and maybe it will sink in..I WAS ASKING THE DANG QUESTIONS TO SPARK DEBATE AND MAKE YOU THINK A LITTLE. so please go back and reread what i wrote the first time...notice how i put "just some food for thought" And for your information i am lutheran...so to your last question yes. All i wanted to know from all of you is how do you know your religion is right compared to lets say Mormans, Jews, Muslims..etc And you ASSUMED i was not christian by me asking..so stop trying to say you didnt cause go back and look at your response to me i believe it was somethin along the lines of "nothing i can say will convince you non believers." so yes you did assume i do not believe in god so please dont back track and change your story..you were wrong so face it. Ill think twice before trying to start a debate in this forum again as it is not a "RELIGION" discussion forum as it states..it is a you're wrong unless you are christian forum and were gonna beat it into your heads cause we think were better type deal...so watch how many people you tell are going to hell and what not because not everyone follows your beliefs..if you cant deal with it then this section of the board will come down as it is not a CHRISTIAN forum..it is for all religions..so dont think you own the place

and just fyi this is not all directed at you moondog just the first part..the last part was for whoever i noticed was going on in the guidelines thread telling people they will burn in hell and what not..

I guess it really doesn't matter since no matter what we say as "proof", not you nor anyone else is going to believe. A person will only believe when the Holy Spirit draws him to do so.
The you nor anyone else in this statement does not nessesarily mean you, but is meant to mean people in general. You were assuming what I meant. Nowhere does this call you or anyone else a non-believer. It seems as though you are trying to twist my words. There are people who say they are christians that dont believe the whole bible. You have even said yourself:
No offense but you do know that man has changed the bible over the years right.
Even though this is an incorrect statement (as pointed above), it is proof that you yourself do not believe everything that is contained in the Bible. This is not an assumption, this is stating fact. Had you said, is it possible for man to change the bible over the years, then I would be assuming you dont believe the Bible is true.
what makes you guys so sure your religion
Once again, this quote by you implies that you are a non-believer, (even though I never said you were) you were grouping yourself amoungst the non-believers by saying you guys and your religion.

And then after I give you a civil responce to your question, you call me ignorant and tell me to shut up. So then it becomes more than a person asking questions, it becomes a young kid acting tough on the internet attacking my character. They used to call these types of people bullies, now they are called punks.

Oh, in responce to your last statement, yes, it is wrong to go around telling non-believers that they will or are going to Hell. They already know that they are going to Hell so there is no point in telling them. We need to show them the love of God and tell them how they can get to Heaven.
But on the flip side of that, it is true, alot of people around here and millions around the world, if they never change their ways and come to the saving knowledge of Christ, will indeed go to Hell. I didn't say so, God did.

WyLdMuStAnGT95

03-28-2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Josh
Man you don't know what you want to believe do you. LOL :)

Let me get this straight, you don't want to believe what the Bible says because it was written by man but you are willing to believe in evolution? :confused: You do know that evolution was not handed down from God right? It is also written down by the hand of a man. So which will you chose; something written by man as dictated by GOD or, an unproven erroneous theory written by man alone?

As for ET. Not saying it is impossible that life may exists outside of our planet but it is very unlikely. The Bible simply does not address it. However, I can say with the utmost certainty that there is no intelligent life out there.

So you just go through life with blinders on your eyes then..not believing or trusting in anything unless it was set down by the bible....Thats horse shit. Every human being has a pit feeling way down that really wonders why we are here and what we are here to do...its the base of all philosophy..to understand why we "DO". I dont want to live life with only one mind set..I want to know how they all piece together and how they connect us all. Its true evolution was written by us...but its a theory that we made up in our own thoughts which were given to us by God. Am I right? So how can we be punished or anything like that for only utilizing what was given to us? I think in that sense, evolution and God do mix. In any TEST, your not given the answers...you have to study and research and make up your own ways to give meaning to certain things. Life is no different. So in that perspective, Yes, I think everything is interconnected. Like energy. Theres so much we dont know yet and so much shit we already know that changes all the time...so who knows whats going to happen in the future?

Nickys Shotgun

03-28-2004, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
And no offense to you but you did know that the sections of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were found in Qumran dating back to around 500 BC read exactly as the KJV that was written over 2000 years later, right? So to say that man has changed the bible over the years to suit himself is stating something that is incorrect and without basis.

That's actually impossible btw. If it had been translated from arabic (or whatever tongue it was originally written, maybe aramiac I can't remember) into middle english literally, then it wouldn't have made any sense.

Just like you can't literally translate spanish into english. But you can get real close. But real close isn't right on the nose now is it?

Besides, the King James bible was translated during the renaissance. Do you really believe that no one took artistic freedom with the book?

And besides, insulting somebody for what they believe is what causes wars, my friend. So just have an intelligent conversation, rather than starting something that belongs in the smackatorium.

You just proved your ignorance by your intellegent reply, grow up. Young punk kids.

Hawse771

03-29-2004, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by MoonDog
The you nor anyone else in this statement does not nessesarily mean you, but is meant to mean people in general. You were assuming what I meant. Nowhere does this call you or anyone else a non-believer. It seems as though you are trying to twist my words. There are people who say they are christians that dont believe the whole bible. You have even said yourself:

Even though this is an incorrect statement (as pointed above), it is proof that you yourself do not believe everything that is contained in the Bible. This is not an assumption, this is stating fact. Had you said, is it possible for man to change the bible over the years, then I would be assuming you dont believe the Bible is true.

Once again, this quote by you implies that you are a non-believer, (even though I never said you were) you were grouping yourself amoungst the non-believers by saying you guys and your religion.

And then after I give you a civil responce to your question, you call me ignorant and tell me to shut up. So then it becomes more than a person asking questions, it becomes a young kid acting tough on the internet attacking my character. They used to call these types of people bullies, now they are called punks.

Oh, in responce to your last statement, yes, it is wrong to go around telling non-believers that they will or are going to Hell. They already know that they are going to Hell so there is no point in telling them. We need to show them the love of God and tell them how they can get to Heaven.
But on the flip side of that, it is true, alot of people around here and millions around the world, if they never change their ways and come to the saving knowledge of Christ, will indeed go to Hell. I didn't say so, God did.

Once again all you did was repeat yourself instead of answering my question..How is your religion more right then Jews..? How about the muslims..they have religious artifacts and stories that date back just as far as christians so how are they wrong and ours right? Deep down in the far depths of you there is doubt..but you will never admit it for you feel if you dont say it out loud than it is not true i guess..but deep down inside of EVERY single person there is the horrific thought of what if there is nothing more to life and once you die you're done..but that doesnt mean you cant still strongly believe in God..just cant say that you never wonder..or you are lying. And think about it..how many of the worlds people are christians..about 1/5th or so right? Do you honestly think God would let 4/5ths of the world go to hell because of the way they were brought up..if so you are completely ignorant and must think our creator is very cruel..a kid that is born into a muslim society for instance that lives in poverty in india or wherever would have no chance at controlling his religion..and if he died at a young age you're trying to tell me he would go to hell no matter how good of a life he lived..thats just ridiculous and you should know better..how many christians go home and beat their wives/children huh? A LOT! so no being a christian is not your ticket into heaven, (assuming it exists) If you believe so you still have much to learn in life. I suggest you do a lot more soul searching to find out what truly makes a good human being cause it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religion...There are plenty cases of non religious people being more civilized and moral driven then that of christians..so dont brand all christians as hell bound cause that is retarded..plain and simple

MoonDog

03-29-2004, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Nickys Shotgun
That's actually impossible btw. If it had been translated from arabic (or whatever tongue it was originally written, maybe aramiac I can't remember) into middle english literally, then it wouldn't have made any sense.

Just like you can't literally translate spanish into english. But you can get real close. But real close isn't right on the nose now is it?

Besides, the King James bible was translated during the renaissance. Do you really believe that no one took artistic freedom with the book?

And besides, insulting somebody for what they believe is what causes wars, my friend. So just have an intelligent conversation, rather than starting something that belongs in the smackatorium.

You just proved your ignorance by your intellegent reply, grow up. Young punk kids.
OK, lest see if I can explain this so that everyone can easily understand. The Masoretic Text, which is the original Hebrew and Greek tests, is what has been used to create our current bible. The KJV has never been used for translation. Every Bible that we have, KJV, NKJV, NIV, American Standard, Good News, Youngs Literal, the list goes on and on, have used the Masoretic Text to translate from. The Masoretic Text dates back to around 1000 AD.

In 1947 the Dead Sea Scrolls were first discovered at Qumran. All of these tests predate Jesus to around ~100 BC, the oldest of which is the famous Isaiah 53 Scroll which dates to ~200 BC. That is only 500 years after Isaiah was actually written.

A comparison of the Masoretic Text to this earlier text revealed a remarkable accuracy with which scribes copied these sacred texts. Accordingly, the integrity of the Bible was confirmed, and has confirmed that any thought of textual alteration was untrue.

The texts from Qumran proved to be word-for-word identical to our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent of variation consisted primarily of obvious slips of the pen and spelling alterations. There were no major doctrinal differences between the Masoretic Text and Qumran texts. This demonstrates the accuracy with which scribes copied sacred texts, and boosts our confidence in the Bible’s integrity.
Originally posted by Hawse771
Once again all you did was repeat yourself instead of answering my question..How is your religion more right then Jews..? How about the muslims..they have religious artifacts and stories that date back just as far as christians so how are they wrong and ours right?
I wasn't merely repeating myself, I was clarifying your statements.

How is MY relationship with God more right then Jews..? How about the muslims..? I will tell you. The prophetic word that is written thoughout the OT. There are hundreds of prophetic passages in the OT dealing with the Messiah, who He is, where He will live, what He will do, even when He will come. HUH? When He will come? Thats right. In Daniel 9:25-27 it says that God has determined 490 years for His people "to finish the transgression". It goes on to say that from the rebuilding of Jerusalem unto the Messiah will be 483 years. A decree was issued in 457 BC, to rebuild Jerusalem, this is the starting point for the 483 years and goes to 27AD, the very year Jesus began His ministry.

So we KNOW that Jesus is the Messiah through Gods prophetic word. Now in the NT it says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that it is by grace that we are saved and not by works. If we are not saved by doing good deeds but instead by the grace of God, how does Jesus being the Messiah come into play?

1 Timothy 2:5 says that there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It is by grace through Jesus Christ that God saves us. John 3:16 God loved us so much that He allowed His Son to die for us that if we would only believe in Him that would would not die but live eternally with Him.
Originally posted by Hawse771
Do you honestly think God would let 4/5ths of the world go to hell because of the way they were brought up..if so you are completely ignorant and must think our creator is very cruel..a kid that is born into a muslim society for instance that lives in poverty in india or wherever would have no chance at controlling his religion..and if he died at a young age you're trying to tell me he would go to hell no matter how good of a life he lived..thats just ridiculous and you should know better..how many christians go home and beat their wives/children huh? A LOT! so no being a christian is not your ticket into heaven, (assuming it exists) If you believe so you still have much to learn in life
Hey Lance (281r)! Your Lutheran right? Are they teaching you guys that salvation comes by good works in church these days. It doesn't matter what you believe anymore? You can be a Muslim or a Hindu or Mormon as long as you are a good little boy? Might be time to find a new church buddy. :p

The Punisher

03-29-2004, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Hawse771
Once again all you did was repeat yourself instead of answering my question..How is your religion more right then Jews..? How about the muslims..they have religious artifacts and stories that date back just as far as christians so how are they wrong and ours right? Deep down in the far depths of you there is doubt..but you will never admit it for you feel if you dont say it out loud than it is not true i guess..but deep down inside of EVERY single person there is the horrific thought of what if there is nothing more to life and once you die you're done..but that doesnt mean you cant still strongly believe in God..just cant say that you never wonder..or you are lying. And think about it..how many of the worlds people are christians..about 1/5th or so right? Do you honestly think God would let 4/5ths of the world go to hell because of the way they were brought up..if so you are completely ignorant and must think our creator is very cruel..a kid that is born into a muslim society for instance that lives in poverty in india or wherever would have no chance at controlling his religion..and if he died at a young age you're trying to tell me he would go to hell no matter how good of a life he lived..thats just ridiculous and you should know better..how many christians go home and beat their wives/children huh? A LOT! so no being a christian is not your ticket into heaven, (assuming it exists) If you believe so you still have much to learn in life. I suggest you do a lot more soul searching to find out what truly makes a good human being cause it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religion...There are plenty cases of non religious people being more civilized and moral driven then that of christians..so dont brand all christians as hell bound cause that is retarded..plain and simple Sounds like you need to read "A case for Christ"... Take a look at all the other religions in the world, all of them are a "Do" religion. Christianity is a "Done" faith. The act of salvation is done. Its your choice to believe. On the other hand, if God would send His son to die on the cross and die such a cruelty death. Do you think he would have sent Jesus to the cross and let him die that cruel death if there was another way to heaven? Why wouldnt God tell Jesus. "Jesus, come down off that cross. You dont have to die this cruel death, there is another way we can save the souls of men." That is what makes the only way to heaven is faith in Christ and the message of the cross for a Christian. You sound like you have taken a potluck theology. A little bit of this belief, and a little bit of that belief, oh I'll get to heaven. Hey, you want to find out if Christianity is the right faith, why dont you then submit your life to Christ, go join a church, and see how your life changes. You'll never see anything the same again.;)

The Punisher

03-29-2004, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by MoonDog

Hey Lance (281r)! Your Lutheran right? Are they teaching you guys that salvation comes by good works in church these days. It doesn't matter what you believe anymore? You can be a Muslim or a Hindu or Mormon as long as you are a good little boy? Might be time to find a new church buddy. :p Nope, that would be incorrect. Salvation only comes by faith. Works will follow by true belief. The Lutheran missiouri synod chuch has never thought that way.

MoonDog

03-29-2004, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by 281R
Nope, that would be incorrect. Salvation only comes by faith. Works will follow by true belief. The Lutheran missiouri synod chuch has never thought that way.
OK, just wanted to make sure. I thought they were on the up and up but the way Hawse771 was talking I was beginning to wonder. Could be like you said, he could have been taught "potluck theology" somewhere.

Hawse771

03-29-2004, 02:10 PM

first off..just want to say congratulations on making some truly insightful responses..only took me half a page of smack talk to get it out of you ;)

And no i do not believe the muslims religion is correct..but on the other hand i do not believe that people that cant help their religion will go to hell..as for people living in lets say the US practicing muslim faith..who knows their fate until the day they die..one cannot say. The bible was written a long time ago so you may not know if gods will has changed..maybe he is more lenient and kind now..maybe he is more harsh and unforgiving..one cannot know. He has seen a lot of things happen since the bible was first written so he has to be influenced by whats going on in the world...

The Punisher

03-29-2004, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
The bible was written a long time ago so you may not know if gods will has changed..maybe he is more lenient and kind now..maybe he is more harsh and unforgiving..one cannot know. He has seen a lot of things happen since the bible was first written so he has to be influenced by whats going on in the world... Like I said "Pot Luck Theology". None of this portrays the "Great I am" in the Bible.

Hawse771

03-29-2004, 02:44 PM

lol..you're taking what im saying wrong man..all im saying is god should be effected by what happens on earth right? Well a lot has happened since 2k years ago..so dont you think his perspective might change a little..? You cant aruge one way or the other on this...cause it doesnt say in the bible "in 2k years i will feel the exact same as i do now" so dont give me that potluck theology bs.

The Punisher

03-29-2004, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
lol..you're taking what im saying wrong man..all im saying is god should be effected by what happens on earth right? Well a lot has happened since 2k years ago..so dont you think his perspective might change a little..? You cant aruge one way or the other on this...cause it doesnt say in the bible "in 2k years i will feel the exact same as i do now" so dont give me that potluck theology bs. dosent make since with an all knowing God. Besides, dosent He already know the future? Thats why we have prophecies. He is all knowing.. I can appeciate your gesture, but it is far from Biblical based and of what we know of Him.

The Punisher

03-29-2004, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
potluck theology bs. The principle is BS, but people use it alot.

four5.0snomore

03-29-2004, 03:41 PM

Ummm...I read where God said he was the same yesterday, today, and forever. He also said he doesn't change...and that he was the beginning and the end...

MoonDog

03-29-2004, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Ummm...I read where God said he was the same yesterday, today, and forever. He also said he doesn't change...and that he was the beginning and the end...
CRAP! I was out playing golf today and missed out on this one. I was just going to say that Lee. :D

four5.0snomore

03-29-2004, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
CRAP! I was out playing golf today and missed out on this one. I was just going to say that Lee. :D

Just a step ahead of you Randy :D

Or maybe just a couple of strokes...LOL

Hawse771

03-29-2004, 04:46 PM

lmao..you guys crack me up. Anyways, im guessing you dont believe in free will then right? You believe everything in your life is fate and that you dont really decide anything then, right..cause that would be the only way for god to see into the future..?

Correct me if my assumptions are wrong..just trying to keep the convo going.

The Punisher

03-29-2004, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
lmao..you guys crack me up. Anyways, im guessing you dont believe in free will then right? You believe everything in your life is fate and that you dont really decide anything then, right..cause that would be the only way for god to see into the future..?

Correct me if my assumptions are wrong..just trying to keep the convo going. Free will I believe dose exist.. Why dose it have to be either or?

Hawse771

03-29-2004, 05:23 PM

because it is impossible to "know" the future if free will exists...someone could either shoot themself or not shoot themself after their gf leaves them..its up to them so no one could know..in that case the man has 2 futures and he decides which one he has not god..especially since most of the people who do things like that dont believe in god. I guess it depends on how you look at it though..for some people believe EVERYTHING happens for a reason..me on the other hand i believe that certain things happen for a reason but others happen because you have no control over what others do..IE when someone dies people a lot of times say God decided they should get off this planet so that they could go on to a better place..well how about when an innocent person who doesnt believe in god dies by a random act of violence..you cant tell me god took them off the planet to stick them in hell..And im not saying you believe in this ive just heard certain people who are very religious claim that god is involved in everything..and personally i think he is involved in what he wants to be involved in..he chooses to help certain people and chooses to ignore those that ignore him and let them be in control of what happens to themselves..but like i said thats just my opinion

MoonDog

03-29-2004, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Just a step ahead of you Randy :D

Or maybe just a couple of strokes...LOL
The way I played today you were probably 10 strokes ahead of me. :mad:

Originally posted by Hawse771
lmao..you guys crack me up. Anyways, im guessing you dont believe in free will then right? You believe everything in your life is fate and that you dont really decide anything then, right..cause that would be the only way for god to see into the future..?

Correct me if my assumptions are wrong..just trying to keep the convo going.
I believe in free will. But the difference is that God already knows in advance what decisions will be made before we make them. But also as a believer He will put certain things in our paths to help guide us in the direction He wants us to go. But we still make the decision to go His way or our way.

The steps of the rightious are ordered of God. (Psa 37:23)

MoonDog

03-29-2004, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
and personally i think he is involved in what he wants to be involved in..he chooses to help certain people and chooses to ignore those that ignore him and let them be in control of what happens to themselves..but like i said thats just my opinion
I believe that. I think there is a time that a person can come to where they have rejected God so much and He gives them up to follow after their own lusts. He is still aware of what is going on but doesn't get involed unless He is asked.

Hawse771

03-29-2004, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
I believe that. I think there is a time that a person can come to where they have rejected God so much and He gives them up to follow after their own lusts. He is still aware of what is going on but doesn't get involed unless He is asked.

Yeah i feel the same way..i believe like you said "righteous are guided" but i do not feel he intervenes (sp) with people who are atheist (sp again) But i still think his intervention is limited and theres only so much he can help us with

Josh

03-30-2004, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by WyLdMuStAnGT95
So you just go through life with blinders on your eyes then..not believing or trusting in anything unless it was set down by the bible....

Blinders? I am convinced that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. So blinders? No, on the contrary I would say that I have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit of God and he has freed me from the blinders.
The funny thing is, is that I can cast the same psycology on you. So you just go through life with blinders on your eyes than...believing and trusting in anything that fits contemporary thinking and relative religiosity but is contrary to the Bible. You also choose not to see or believe the possibility of an accurate Bible because it makes you uncomfortable.

Originally posted by WyLdMuStAnGT95
Every human being has a pit feeling way down that really wonders why we are here and what we are here to do...its the base of all philosophy..to understand why we "DO". I dont want to live life with only one mind set..I want to know how they all piece together and how they connect us all.

I would agree with you on the "pit" that we all have. Although I would suggest that this hole can only be filled by God himself.

Originally posted by WyLdMuStAnGT95
Its true evolution was written by us...but its a theory that we made up in our own thoughts which were given to us by God. Am I right? So how can we be punished or anything like that for only utilizing what was given to us?

Yes my point before still stands solid. If it, evolution, was thought up and written by fallible man why do you choose to believe it. Yes God gave us thought but I think you take it too far. God gave us the ability to imagine but he did not intend us to use this imagination for the vile despicable things we see around us today.

Originally posted by WyLdMuStAnGT95
I think in that sense, evolution and God do mix. In any TEST, your not given the answers...you have to study and research and make up your own ways to give meaning to certain things. Life is no different. So in that perspective, Yes, I think everything is interconnected. Like energy. Theres so much we dont know yet and so much shit we already know that changes all the time...so who knows whats going to happen in the future?

I'd propose that we are given the answers. It is written in the book that you refuse to give credit. There is much evidence that may be presented about the Bible to support its validity. Some of which I may post here shortly.

Josh

03-30-2004, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by dan962000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hawse771
this just goes to show how ignorant you are..did i say i didnt believe..i actually believe in god so you must be the poster child for downsyndrome cause all i was doin was sparking some debate..so please dont try and preach to me about "proof" when you have no idea where i stand. All im saying is you dont know that EVERY SINGLE word in the bible is gods word or what was added ok..and you still managed to not answer any of the good questions i asked..how do you knwo your religion is right..have you studied IN DEPTH all of the other world religions..cause i bet they say the exact same htings you say about ancient scrolls found and what not..so try and think "outside the box" and not be so ignorant
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Faith.

I agree with you to a point Dan; but what is faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evedince of things not seen. Right? Therefore, I would suggest to you that we do have a substantial amount of proof that the Bible is both accurate and inspired. It has long withstood the onslaught of scrutiny and it will forever more.

2xborn

03-30-2004, 03:12 PM

As human we can't even figure out life much less God...We were created to serve Him...Bottom line! We weren't created to try and figure everything out. That's what happen to Adam and Eve. We have to focus on the work that God has for us as a individual. One day when Jesus returns we can ask Him all these questions. And I'm sure when He reply we will be like Duh! It was right there the whole time...I think it's great that a website that in the past was flooded with nude pics and profanity has opened up this forum for some really life issues that are not only important but eternal.

The Punisher

03-30-2004, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by 2xborn
As human we can't even figure out life much less God...We were created to serve Him...Bottom line! We weren't created to try and figure everything out. That's what happen to Adam and Eve. We have to focus on the work that God has for us as a individual. One day when Jesus returns we can ask Him all these questions. And I'm sure when He reply we will be like Duh! It was right there the whole time...I think it's great that a website that in the past was flooded with nude pics and profanity has opened up this forum for some really life issues that are not only important but eternal. The Lord works in mysterious ways:D

four5.0snomore

03-30-2004, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Hawse771
..well how about when an innocent person who doesnt believe in god dies by a random act of violence..you cant tell me god took them off the planet to stick them in hell..

None are innocent before God..."All have sinned and fall short..."

I do believe this!

99 Trans Am

03-30-2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by 2xborn
I think it's great that a website that in the past was flooded with nude pics and profanity has opened up this forum for some really life issues that are not only important but eternal.

Couldn't agree more......

Hawse771

03-30-2004, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
None are innocent before God..."All have sinned and fall short..."

I do believe this!

how about a 2 year old who dies..or even yet a 1 yr old..no way possible they could have sinned as there minds are too young to perform any action resembling a sin..what are your guys (yes everyone) opinions on what happens to them, as they cannot have accepted jesus as their lord and savior yet.

Josh

03-31-2004, 07:10 PM

The age of accountability. The point when one can grasp right and wrong.

NDSP

04-01-2004, 11:07 AM

I find it easier to believe science with some tangible fact, than a book written 2000 years ago by men that had little to no understanding of the world around them(flat earth, earth the center of the universe, gravity, etc....) . They explained everything around them they didn't understand as having some otherworldly origin. Thus they assign it all to God. The apple fell to the earth because God willed it. No it fell because of Gravity. And it is these humans, however good intentioned, that wrote this book you hold as the end all be all to existance.

Most people beleive in a religion because that is how they were brought up, or they were in a bad place and it provided refuge iand reason for existance and meaning. We all need meaning. And purpose for existance and religion fills that void for many people. I can't turn a blind eye to reason and science to except the bible on faith.

Why do you believe the bible and not some current self proclaimed mesiah. I tell you why because it is here and now and you can see for yourself how delusional these people are. But since the bible was writen 2000 years ago and you were brought up with the believe in it all around you. It is easy to suspend reason and believe. We all want to belong. Especially to something the members seems to relish so fervently.

I'm agnostic, but I have much higher morals than many self proclaimed christians I know. I go to church, because I found one that doesn't have zealots and is more toward good will toward men and kindness. I like there company. However I think they would probably shun me if they knew my 'true' believes.

Josh

04-01-2004, 01:18 PM

The bible is very scientific and can be proven.

NDSP

04-01-2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Josh
The bible is very scientific and can be proven.

Only as a historical account does it have any standing. Who begot who and the like. But Samson, Moses and the red sea. Bullshit, pure and simple.

Josh

04-01-2004, 05:03 PM

Moses? Why not? Where do you think all those fossil layers came from?

I don't have time to really debate this right now but I assure you I'll answer your statements.

MoonDog

04-01-2004, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by NDSP
Only as a historical account does it have any standing. Who begot who and the like. But Samson, Moses and the red sea. Bullshit, pure and simple.
They actually have proven scientifically how Moses could have parted the Red Sea. The conditions had to be just perfect but scientifically it could happen.
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040121-080423-3978r.htm

There have been many good programs on TV concerning "scentific" proof when it comes to the bible. These programs have been on a show called ANCIENT SECRETS OF THE BIBLE. They scientifically prove how many of the bible stories could have happened.

But what is more important, people have been trying for years to prove the bible to be incorrect only to fail everytime. I have even heard stories from some of these scientists who first set out to prove God doesn't exist only to come to the conclusion that He actually does and thus became a Christian.

find it easier to believe science with some tangible fact, than a book written 2000 years ago by men that had little to no understanding of the world around them(flat earth, earth the center of the universe, gravity, etc....) . They explained everything around them they didn't understand as having some otherworldly origin.
Do you think that this might be because when you get right down to it, these things really dont matter all that much?
Originally posted by Josh
Moses? Why not? Where do you think all those fossil layers came from?
Um, Josh, you mean Noah? ;)

Josh

04-02-2004, 05:34 AM

You ever heard the riddle, "How many animals of each kind did Moses take on the Ark?" LOL Yeah I know what I am talking about. I suppose it was a reflex reaction to most peoples assault on the flood story. That is the first Biblical story usually attacked.

Moses is an even easier story to prove. Matter a fact I just watched that program on Discovery last night, the one you mention MoonDog. And I tell you, there is much evidence lending itself to the story of Moses.

There is alot of speculation as to whether the Hebrews crossed the Red Sea, rather it is suspected that they crossed the Sea of Reeds. From what I gather this is not one sea but a collection of shallow lakes in the Nile's Delta. The same phenomenon in your article MoonDog or a tital wave may have caused the destruction of the Egyptian Army.

As far as Samson goes, I can't say. But if the story of Moses can be proven I can muster the faith to believe that Samson's is real.

MoonDog

04-02-2004, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Josh
As far as Samson goes, I can't say. But if the story of Moses can be proven I can muster the faith to believe that Samson's is real.
From the ANCIENT SECRETS OF THE BIBLE program that covered Samson it explained how the temples were built back then and how the pillars were placed. Apparently there were a couple of pillars near the center that could be knocked over that would bring down the whole building. It was very interesting.

I tried finding info on the internet about it but came up empty.

NDSP

04-02-2004, 09:54 AM

The blind leading the blind. Don't get me wrong I admire your faith, but you really need to consider the source for these scientific proof the bible's stories are true. I'm skeptical of everything I read and unless it has allot more than one source to collaborate it's findings, i'll remain skeptical, that goes for science to, not just religious folk trying as hard as they can to prove there religion's stories true. If the parting of the red sea was possible, it was because of the right conditions and the right time. And not because moses raised his staff and willed it to happen through the power of God.

So what your saying josh, is that if one of the stories in the bible can be proven possible, then you'll believe the rest on faith. I can't do that. If one of the stories is impossible they all are in question. Just like in science, if one part of a theory or finding is questionable then the whole thing is questionable.

Pro Trash

04-02-2004, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8
So when I went to see The Passion weeks ago, I was sitting next to these two guys and one of them brought up evolution . . . the other says "You believe in evolution and you're seeing this movie???"

My GOD!!! How can people be so close minded!!!! I'm sorry, but Genisis (sp?) is a good story, but honestly, evolution makes alot more sense. It's doesn't make me less of a christian for thinking so. IMO: Evolution is just God's doing.

You know a few of the Dead Seas scrolls have yet to be found and some are in such dis-repair that they will never be translated. I think and this just an opinion with God you can have your cake and eat it too. I feel he could have done the big bang thing himself and what if it is broken down by Biblical writers into 7 days. Maybe a day was a year, 10 years, 100 years or even 1,000 years back then. It does make one wonder right?

Pro Trash

04-02-2004, 10:01 AM

The Punisher

04-02-2004, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Pro Trash
You know a few of the Dead Seas scrolls have yet to be found and some are in such dis-repair that they will never be translated. I think and this just an opinion with God you can have your cake and eat it too. I feel he could have done the big bang thing himself and what if it is broken down by Biblical writers into 7 days. Maybe a day was a year, 10 years, 100 years or even 1,000 years back then. It does make one wonder right? Except the translated word for day in the Bible has always meant one day throughout all it has been used in the Bible. I wont put it past God that he could do it in 7 days, He is all powerfull.

Josh

04-02-2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by NDSP
The blind leading the blind. Don't get me wrong I admire your faith, but you really need to consider the source for these scientific proof the bible's stories are true. I'm skeptical of everything I read and unless it has allot more than one source to collaborate it's findings, i'll remain skeptical, that goes for science to, not just religious folk trying as hard as they can to prove there religion's stories true. If the parting of the red sea was possible, it was because of the right conditions and the right time. And not because moses raised his staff and willed it to happen through the power of God.

Not at all. I did consider that source and it came from the Discovery Channel of all places, which traditionally is not the most Theistically friendly channel out there. The scholars were not all believers either. They were just tracking down information, perhaps to disporve it. Besides, I would not believe it simply because it was on the Discovery channel. However, I will say that it does help bolster my faith. But as you wisely indicate I will not put all my trust in one program. Really though we are somewhat limited as to how far we can research any one subject. It's not like I am about to jump a plane to Egypt and start digging for stuff.

Yes I believe that the plauge phenomenons were natural occurances. But do you not consider it still amazing that Moses could say, "Do this or God'll do that!" and it happened. I mean our weather forecasters today only bat .500. So no matter which way you look at iit still is a result of the power of God. ;)

Originally posted by NDSP
So what your saying josh, is that if one of the stories in the bible can be proven possible, then you'll believe the rest on faith. I can't do that. If one of the stories is impossible they all are in question. Just like in science, if one part of a theory or finding is questionable then the whole thing is questionable.

No that is not exactly what I am saying. Leaving faith aside; I am saying that if I can understand and prove to myself most of the Biblical accounts recorded, then it is alot easier to simply put all my faith in those places which I do not understand. The Bible proves itself to me over and over again.
I agree with you somewhat; to the extent if one story were proven emphatically false then it would taint the rest of the book. None of it has been proven false, unless you can direct me otherwise.

BTW, Darwinian Evolution has it's own missing links that must be taken on faith, right? So really no difference in the amount of faith it takes to believe either one. Six, one half dozen the other.
:)

Josh

04-02-2004, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by 281R
Except the translated word for day in the Bible has always meant one day throughout all it has been used in the Bible. I wont put it past God that he could do it in 7 days, He is all powerfull.
I don't even contain HIM to creating in 7 days. He did it in 6. Remember He rested. :p ;)

NDSP

04-02-2004, 12:17 PM

Your faith is admirable. And I have to say allot of devout christians seem to be in a happy peaceful place in life. I would like to be there too, but I can't except any religion spin on god. Their stories are too far fetched and steeped in the distant past. I do believe that the bible is a good guideline for good/clean/happy living. Abiding by it teachings will give a greater possibility for a good life. Not garantee it, but definately increase the odds greatly. That is why I choose to life by them and go to church. Not because the bible says god say to, but because I think it is the right way to live.

MoonDog

04-04-2004, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
From the ANCIENT SECRETS OF THE BIBLE program that covered Samson it explained how the temples were built back then and how the pillars were placed. Apparently there were a couple of pillars near the center that could be knocked over that would bring down the whole building. It was very interesting.

I tried finding info on the internet about it but came up empty.
Found this concerning Samson.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/samson2.jpg
Two stone pillar bases in the Philistine temple at Tel Qasile, Israel
Two Philistine temples have been uncovered by archaeologists. One at Tel Qasile, in northern Tel Aviv, and one in Tel Miqne, ancient Ekron, 21 miles south of Tel Aviv. Both temples share a unique design -- the roof was supported by two central pillars. The pillars were made of wood and rested on stone support bases. With the pillars being about six feet apart, a strong man could dislodge them from their stone bases and bring the entire roof crashing down.

Pro Trash

04-04-2004, 09:10 PM

Josh

04-05-2004, 11:18 AM

Could you explain them?

MoonDog

04-05-2004, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Pro Trash
True but explain the missing books of the bible?
But if they are missing how can someone explain them? Wouldn't they need to be found first? :p

The Punisher

04-06-2004, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Hawse771
because it is impossible to "know" the future if free will exists... Says us humans, but lthat is limiting God to what He can or cant do. Like putting him in a box. We dont know what He is capable of. But to me, is capable of the impossible.:)

MoonDog

04-06-2004, 10:02 AM

Pretty good explaination of free will and an all-knowing God.

http://www.carm.org/questions/free_will.htm

MouseKiller

04-06-2004, 02:42 PM

Hey, lets throw some conspiracy theory into this.

Maybe the conflict with genesis and science is intentional. Maybe it is to prevent us from better understanding our true origins. What if it is part of "god's plan" for us to debate this issue and cloud facts? What if the truth of our beginnings is too far fetched or outragious to be told? What if the truth of our origins leads to our destruction?

MoonDog

04-06-2004, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by MouseKiller
Hey, lets throw some conspiracy theory into this.

Maybe the conflict with genesis and science is intentional. Maybe it is to prevent us from better understanding our true origins. What if it is part of "god's plan" for us to debate this issue and cloud facts? What if the truth of our beginnings is too far fetched or outragious to be told? What if the truth of our origins leads to our destruction?
yeah, thats it. :rolleyes:

Hey, What if it is part of "mans's plan" for us to debate this issue and cloud facts? That sounds more feasible.

46Tbird

04-09-2004, 06:46 PM

You all just think you're right.

clean89

04-10-2004, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by Who Needs 8
So when I went to see The Passion weeks ago, I was sitting next to these two guys and one of them brought up evolution . . . the other says "You believe in evolution and you're seeing this movie???"

My GOD!!! How can people be so close minded!!!! I'm sorry, but Genisis (sp?) is a good story, but honestly, evolution makes alot more sense. It's doesn't make me less of a christian for thinking so. IMO: Evolution is just God's doing.

it is possible, but you have to put alot of thought in to it. Kind of like god and jesus being the same but different. It never said how long days where in the bible. when we think about a day we think 24 hours but that might not have been the case with him. as far as man coming from monkeys that can not be believed. The first part of the post is more along the lines of the big bang theroy. but some forms of evolution is possible, and be in line with the bible. sorry if it dont make since I am going to bed.

Josh

04-10-2004, 09:26 AM

I am going to stain my fence on the seventh day.
I am going to church on the first day.
I am going to work on my car on the second day. *
I am going to work on the third day.

How long will it take me to stain my fence? One thousand years? One million years? or perhaps One hundred million years? No it will happen in a literal 24 hour period. The word yo'm is the Hebrew word for day used in the Genesis accoount of creation. Everywhere else in scripture yo'm is used to reference a literal 24 hour period. So unless you are willing to also believe that Jonah was in the belly of the fish not for three days but 3 billion years than I suggest you do a little more research into the exegesis of the Hebrew word yo'm.

* The second day reference to my car may not be an accurate parelell as it seems to have taken a day age of millions of years to get as little done as I have. :)

MoonDog

04-10-2004, 10:34 AM

Gen 1:5 And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:8 And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I can see where people can confuse this with meaning 6,000 or 6,000,000 years. :rolleyes: These verses were written down with a perspective from earth, there is no evening or morning in Heaven. Like Josh said, I guess Joshua marched around the walls of Jerico for 7 million years before they came down or maybe Jesus was in the tomb for 3 thousand years before He actually rose.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have all seen the verse that says, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. This has nothing to do with converting days in scripture. The next verse says The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. This is stating that while we may think God is taking a long time to do His will or do something that we want Him to, He is infact doing it is His time, He is doing it at the right time. God does things in His time, not ours.

four5.0snomore

04-10-2004, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Josh
I am going to stain my fence on the seventh day.
I am going to church on the first day.
I am going to work on my car on the second day. *
I am going to work on the third day.

* The second day reference to my car may not be an accurate parelell as it seems to have taken a day age of millions of years to get as little done as I have. :)

That's to funny! :D

bhoffman67

04-15-2004, 10:52 PM

<quote>
And no i do not believe the muslims religion is correct
</quote>

Nor do I agree with the Muslim religion... but nor do I believe that a Muslim/Hindu/whatever man, who does only good works his entire life, strives to better mankind, leads a wholesome spiritual life, etc. will ever end up in the Christian hell.

MoonDog

04-15-2004, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by bhoffman67
<quote>
And no i do not believe the muslims religion is correct
</quote>

Nor do I agree with the Muslim religion... but nor do I believe that a Muslim/Hindu/whatever man, who does only good works his entire life, strives to better mankind, leads a wholesome spiritual life, etc. will ever end up in the Christian hell.
There is a Christian Hell? :confused: :p

I know, you mean the Christian concept of Hell. Anyway, where do you believe this "good man" will end up when he dies?

bhoffman67

04-15-2004, 11:53 PM

yes, the Christian concept of hell.

As to the non-Christian good man: That would depend on the religion, or lack thereof. The flipside also holds true. Most religions have both at least one "bad place" and one "good place".

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know yall will), doesn't the Bible say something about "9 layers of hell" and "many houses in heaven"... which kinda implies that there isn't just a simple heaven and hell for even Christians.

MoonDog

04-16-2004, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by bhoffman67
yes, the Christian concept of hell.

As to the non-Christian good man: That would depend on the religion, or lack thereof. The flipside also holds true. Most religions have both at least one "bad place" and one "good place".

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know yall will), doesn't the Bible say something about "9 layers of hell" and "many houses in heaven"... which kinda implies that there isn't just a simple heaven and hell for even Christians.
So you basicly believe that whatever a person believes that is what will happen to them, thats very politically correct.

As for "many houses in heaven" you may be refering to when Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." I believe that this is saying nothing more than there being more than enough room for everyone in Heaven, not that there are layers or levels.

Dont know about the "9 layers of hell", just know about one. But I did find this on www.wizards.com. :rolleyes: I believe that Dante even eluded to something like this in his book Inferno but the bible mentions nothing about layers that I know of.
Hell actually comprises nine "layers" of similar lawful and evil temperament, often called the Nine Hells. ("Fires of the Nine Hells" is a common expletive in Faerûn.) Stacked on top of each other in a metaphysical sense, each of the nine layers is smaller and more evil than the next. Each layer is controlled by a powerful being called an archdevil, some of which may rival minor deities in power. Together, these archdevils are called the Lords of the Nine.

The wasteland of Avernus is the highest layer, and it is ruled by Bel, a very powerful pit fiend who defeated Avernus's previous lord. All of Elminster's travels in Hell in the novel take place in Avernus.

The next layer is the burning iron city of Dis, which is ruled by Dispater, the goat-footed lord who rarely leaves his Iron Citadel.

Third is the dire and polluted swamp of Minauros, which is ruled by the serpent-bodied Mammon, who few archdevils would ever trust after a previous betrayal.

Fourth is fire-blasted Phlegethos, with its rivers of lava and animate fire that wanders the air. It is ruled by the devil Belial and his daughter Fierna.

Fifth is Stygia, which is a watery realm of crushing ice and lightning-fractured skies. It is ruled by Levistus, who is sealed in a great block of ice as punishment for his betrayal of the lord of the ninth Hell.

Sixth is Malbolge, which is a mountainous dimension that suffers continuous avalanches and falling boulders. It is ruled by a powerful night hag known only as the Hag Countess.

Seventh is Maladomini, a place of ruined abandoned cities and constant construction. Its ruler is Baalzebul, an archon of good who was cast down into Hell and transformed into a sluglike creature.

Eighth is Cania, colder even than Stygia, with glaciers that move as the fastest human sprinter and avalanches of snow that bury everything in sight. Cania is ruled by Mephistopheles, who faked his own coup to discover enemies in his camp.

Nessus is the ninth layer of Hell and is a land of impossibly deep canyons. Powerful Asmodeus rules this layer. This mysterious and ancient being may date back to early in the creation of the multiverse.
http://www.wizards.com/books/images/nineHells_big.jpg

1994SilverGT

04-16-2004, 02:15 AM

lol you say man was made in gods image correct?

funny thing is, do u know what god looked like? im pretty sure u have no clue at all. so could god look like a monkey? yep he could, or could he be a single celled organism? yep could be. u are going off assumptions as well there buddy boy.

Josh

04-16-2004, 06:01 AM

First one:
Define image. Yup it does have more than one meaning.
We are designed like him. Having spirit, soul, conscience.

Second:
Follow this line of logic.
God is noncorporeal.
Jesus is God in carnate.
Jesus has been with the Father eternally.
We are made in Jesus' image.
Therefore we are made in God's image.

I subscribe to the second.

MoonDog

04-16-2004, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by 1994SilverGT
lol you say man was made in gods image correct?

funny thing is, do u know what god looked like? im pretty sure u have no clue at all. so could god look like a monkey? yep he could, or could he be a single celled organism? yep could be. u are going off assumptions as well there buddy boy.
We actually have a general idea of what He looks like. :p
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me...
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie...
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days (GOD) did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool:...
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit:...
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Rev 4:3 And He that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone:...
So we know this about what God looks like:
1. No one has ever seen His true likeness (A full discovery of the glory of God, would overwhelm and kill a sinful man)
2. He is not a man
3. He is a Spirit (He is infinite and eternal, an intelligent being, incorporeal, immaterial, invisible, and incorruptible)
4. His garments are white and His hair is like wool (described in a way such that man's nature is able to comprehend some portion of his glory)
5. He is a consuming fire
6. To look upon him is like jasper and sardine (most glorious in his own person, and with his glory outshining all other things)

I would venture to say that God is an all consuming spiritual fire that would kill us to look upon Him in all His glory.

I am sure there are more, I just dont have the time to look them all up. Maybe someone else can take on that task.

1994SilverGT

04-16-2004, 12:00 PM

but i thought we were made in his image...then how come im not an alla consuming fire as well?

The Punisher

04-16-2004, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by 1994SilverGT
but i thought we were made in his image...then how come im not an alla consuming fire as well? Image in this context can have a vast amount of different definitions.
Like
A personification of something specified:

Example: That child is the image of good health.;)

1994SilverGT

04-16-2004, 12:36 PM

but it says "we" were made in his image...correct?

well then, lets take a look at all the things we do....lets see we lie, steal, cheat, kill, maim, rape, insult, destroy and various other things to one another but we are the image of god, so he does these as well and then i guess since he does them its ok?

MoonDog

04-16-2004, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by 281R
Image in this context can have a vast amount of different definitions.
Like
A personification of something specified:

Example: That child is the image of good health.;)

Image:
A reproduction of the form of a person or object, especially a sculptured likeness.
Physics. An optically formed duplicate, counterpart, or other representative reproduction of an object, especially an optical reproduction formed by a lens or mirror.
One that closely or exactly resembles another; a double: He is the image of his uncle.
The opinion or concept of something that is held by the public.
A personification of something specified: That child is the image of good health.
A mental picture of something not present.
A vivid description or representation.
A figure of speech, especially a metaphor or simile.
Mathematics. A set of values of a function corresponding to a particular subset of a domain.

The Punisher

04-16-2004, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by 1994SilverGT
but it says "we" were made in his image...correct?

well then, lets take a look at all the things we do....lets see we lie, steal, cheat, kill, maim, rape, insult, destroy and various other things to one another but we are the image of god, so he does these as well and then i guess since he does them its ok? ever heard of sin and free will?

four5.0snomore

04-16-2004, 01:55 PM

or the fall...

MoonDog

04-16-2004, 09:14 PM

Josh

04-20-2004, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by Josh
First one:
Define image. Yup it does have more than one meaning.
We are designed like him. Having spirit, soul, conscience.

Second:
Follow this line of logic.
God is noncorporeal.
Jesus is God in carnate.
Jesus has been with the Father eternally.
We are made in Jesus' image.
Therefore we are made in God's image.

I subscribe to the second.

I'll post it again in case it was overlooked.
We are created in Jesus' image.

Fordboy91

04-27-2004, 04:52 PM

Believing in evlution and believing in the " Theory of evlution" is not always the same thing. A lot of things evolve. Kind of like survival of the fittest. Ever hear of anyone hunting deer in the everglades? No because they are small in stature as compared to those in west texas. reason being is becasue the ones in the everglades had to adapt and evolve to be able to move around in the swamps. Look at how insects evolve to become immune to pesticides. Or how diseases evolve to become immune to antecdotes. Yes things do evolve. But, was my greatest grandfather a monkey? No, I don't care what Darwin said. As a christian I believe what my heavenly father said when he said he breathed the breath of life into man.

MoonDog

04-27-2004, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Fordboy91
Believing in evlution and believing in the " Theory of evlution" is not always the same thing. A lot of things evolve. Kind of like survival of the fittest. Ever hear of anyone hunting deer in the everglades? No because they are small in stature as compared to those in west texas. reason being is becasue the ones in the everglades had to adapt and evolve to be able to move around in the swamps. Look at how insects evolve to become immune to pesticides. Or how diseases evolve to become immune to antecdotes. Yes things do evolve. But, was my greatest grandfather a monkey? No, I don't care what Darwin said. As a christian I believe what my heavenly father said when he said he breathed the breath of life into man.
And that is the difference between MACRO and MICRO evolution. Micro-evolution is the adaptation and change within a species while macro-evolution is the addition of new traits or a transition to a new species. Micro-evolution is a fact that is plainly observable throughout nature. Macro-evolution is a theory that has never been observed in science. Yet our school system would likes to teach otherwise.