If Human Cloning was legal in the US? [Archive]

The Punisher

03-15-2004, 10:41 AM

If Human Cloning was made legal in the US, who do you think would be directly affected or indirectly affected? Would there be any good that came out of it or only bad? I am looking for answers of faith or scientifically here. But the big part of this is "IF". Use your immagination or facts from the past here;)

MoonDog

03-15-2004, 10:55 AM

There can be good that comes out of it like stem cell research. But I only question is, if we were created by God and God breathes into us the breath of life, this is where our spirit comes from right? Where would a clones spirit come from and would it even have a spirit? Would these clones just be mindless zombies walking around with no emotions like in "Dawn of the Dead"?

four5.0snomore

03-15-2004, 11:38 AM

The Punisher

03-15-2004, 02:43 PM

would you consider a pregnancy that happens outside of the womb a gift from God if they self induced pregnancy by implanting a sperm into a egg?

SlowLX

03-15-2004, 04:18 PM

MoonDog

03-15-2004, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by SlowLX
God is all powerfull couldn't he just put a soul into the clone, just becuase he's identical to someone else doesnt mean they'll lead the same life.
Sure He could. But if He lets us try to play god and make a human they why would He not let us try to make the spirit to go along with it?

I personally dont think a cloned human would have a normal lifespan even if it did live very long.

SlowLX

03-16-2004, 12:49 AM

All I mean is from an open perspective, it could jsut be another outlet for creation like birth in God's plan.

nicotino15

03-21-2004, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by MoonDog
There can be good that comes out of it like stem cell research. But I only question is, if we were created by God and God breathes into us the breath of life, this is where our spirit comes from right? Where would a clones spirit come from and would it even have a spirit? Would these clones just be mindless zombies walking around with no emotions like in "Dawn of the Dead"?

agreed, and to be honest the majority of the u.s agrees that stem cell research is the ONLY allowable form of cloning, btw stem cell research involves using adult stem cells to recreate such things as organs, could help cure diabetes and they are trying to recreate neural cells as well, embryonic cloning or nuclear transfer i believe they call it is completely illegitimate in my opinion.

Blue88Coupe

03-21-2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
There can be good that comes out of it like stem cell research. But I only question is, if we were created by God and God breathes into us the breath of life, this is where our spirit comes from right? Where would a clones spirit come from and would it even have a spirit? Would these clones just be mindless zombies walking around with no emotions like in "Dawn of the Dead"?

I'll take 2 mindless zombies please. THey can do all my work while I sit at home and collect the cash!

So I take it there may be some place on earth that allows human cloning or has no laws against it. Do you think if some other country actually cloned a human the US would go in and destroy it? I could see how it could be twisted and see as being able to create a massive army (wepon of mass destruction ).

As far as the spirit stuff goes I dont think a clone would necessarily need someone to "breath a spirit" into it. You dont need that much to function really, simply learning to eat, sleep, use the toilet etc. None of that really requires a "spirit".

jrstang

03-21-2004, 06:36 PM

the question is,how would the clones caracter be without ever getting love ? Think about it what does a baby want from you from the start ? Where does all the hatred in this world stem from ? The answer to this age old question is no LOVE.THis is true for everyone every religon.Everyone in this world at one time or another was searching for something.That one thing was to be loved.Whether they found it in spirutal things or searched for it in earthly things .It all is the same answer.they all wanted to be loved and to give love.KNow here is my conclusion on cloning how would a baby who needs love from the start be able to feel love growing up in a military inviroment.I dont think he could.If they do clone a person i think it will be a cold hearted person and not have a shear respect for huan life because it is not.They goverment would probably use them as killing machines because the cloneprobably wouldnt feel giulty for killing because its not like it is killing one of it's own.

MoonDog

03-21-2004, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Blue88Coupe
As far as the spirit stuff goes I dont think a clone would necessarily need someone to "breath a spirit" into it. You dont need that much to function really, simply learning to eat, sleep, use the toilet etc. None of that really requires a "spirit".
I disagree with you. If you believe in any form of afterlife then you probably will agree that when a person dies, their spirit leaves their body. If a clone has no spirit then it can not live and breathe.

Now this is just my own personal opinion from what I believe. Heck, I used to believe that it wasn't possible to clone anything, I guess I was wrong. Now if a clone could live then I could see the possibility of some European or Middle Eastern countries building a army for a future war, mindless, without fear of death, no emotions about killing the innocent. Much like the Clone Wars in Star Wars. :D

The Big Matt

03-22-2004, 12:21 PM

If we, such simple creatures really, have figured out a way to clone ourselves, who's to say "aliens" didn't just clone themselves, and put us here to inhabit this planet?

If God created adam in his image, isn't that cloning?

four5.0snomore

03-22-2004, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt

If God created adam in his image, isn't that cloning?

Cool, you believe that! :D

The Big Matt

03-22-2004, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Cool, you believe that! :D

No I don't. I'm asking a question for those that do. Notice the "if"

I'm asking that if you belive that god created Adam in his image, isn't that a sort of cloning?

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt

I'm asking that if you belive that god created Adam in his image, isn't that a sort of cloning? no, its an issue of creating!

The Big Matt

03-22-2004, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by 281R
no, its an issue of creating!

isn't cloning, technically creating?

i mean if we clone something, we've created a new life. Right? A new person, animal, etc, which may look like it's original model, but would be completely different in terms of thinking, etc?

Free thought?

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
isn't cloning, technically creating?

i mean if we clone something, we've created a new life. Right? A new person, animal, etc, which may look like it's original model, but would be completely different in terms of thinking, etc?

Free thought? in essence you are only making use of what all ready is there. God created humans, we are only copying what was already there.

The Big Matt

03-22-2004, 03:27 PM

cre·ate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr-t)
tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
To invest with an office or title; appoint.
To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

So wouldn't cloning, be defined as creating, under the fourth definition?

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
cre·ate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr-t)
tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
To invest with an office or title; appoint.
To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

So wouldn't cloning, be defined as creating, under the fourth definition? No, b/c we didnt create the DNA, we only copied it;)

The Big Matt

03-22-2004, 04:04 PM

ok, by that sense, you can't create a poem, because all you did was copy words already created, but organized them in a different fashion.

In cloning, they can take DNA, and change, hair color, eye color, skin pigment, etc...

wouldn't that be the same thing?

whiteboy

03-22-2004, 04:09 PM

THERE JUST NOT OPEN MINDED MATT

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
ok, by that sense, you can't create a poem, because all you did was copy words already created, but organized them in a different fashion.

In cloning, they can take DNA, and change, hair color, eye color, skin pigment, etc...

wouldn't that be the same thing? You are still not creating anything, you are only modifying what was already created.

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by whiteboy
THERE JUST NOT OPEN MINDED MATT no, we just know whats right and dont have the same mind set as you!

The Big Matt

03-22-2004, 04:24 PM

definition of create....

To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

so yes you are creating something.

Dictionaries don't lie

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt

Dictionaries don't lie I bet there are tons of gays that want marriage that will disagree with you.;)
That is why everyone tries to append their own meaning to every word.

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt

so yes you are creating something.

you are helping creation create itself;)

The Big Matt

03-22-2004, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by 281R
I bet there are tons of gays that want marriage that will disagree with you.;)
That is why everyone tries to append their own meaning to every word.

Ahh, but marriage has multiple meanings as well. Two inanimate objects can marry themselves too... :) Even playing cards :)

mar·riage ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mrj)
n.

The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
The state of being married; wedlock.
A common-law marriage.
A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.
A wedding.
A close union: “the most successful marriage of beauty and blood in mainstream comics” (Lloyd Rose).
Games. The combination of the king and queen of the same suit, as in pinochle.

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
Ahh, but marriage has multiple meanings as well. Two inanimate objects can marry themselves too... :) Even playing cards :)

mar·riage ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mrj)
n.

The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
The state of being married; wedlock.
A common-law marriage.
A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.
A wedding.
A close union: “the most successful marriage of beauty and blood in mainstream comics” (Lloyd Rose).
Games. The combination of the king and queen of the same suit, as in pinochle. Go back some years and you wouldnt see the same thing.

The Big Matt

03-22-2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by 281R
Go back some years and you wouldnt see the same thing.

That's because society has evolved...

oops, that's a completely different topic altogether :)

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
That's because society has evolved...

oops, that's a completely different topic altogether :) Yes at a whole it has;)

whiteboy

03-22-2004, 06:25 PM

matt is throwing it side ways at you! come on nothing wrong with clones

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by whiteboy
matt is throwing it side ways at you! come on nothing wrong with clones Jeremy, the way I feel is add something usefull to this post or try to make valid points, otherwise your not worth the time to respond to

whiteboy

03-22-2004, 07:41 PM

why be so serious about this ? This is a MUSTANG WEBSITE
and not church

The Punisher

03-22-2004, 08:34 PM

it dosent have to be serious, just I hope you know where being funny is no longer funny, but annoying. I just like it when people contribute and not just comment. But o'well, its not my board and Im not a mod, so all I can do is request. I dont mind discussing topics like this with you or anybody else on the board, but there is a time to be silly and comment (I do it sometimes) and a time to be more serious and contribute. I started this thread to be serious and contribute. That is what I was just asking for, nothing more. IMO:)

four5.0snomore

03-23-2004, 09:07 AM

regardless of whatever the dictionary defines cloning as, no man can breathe "life" or spirit into a cloned human....God would have to do that...Matt - that is why cloning is not creating :)

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 11:55 AM

How do you know that?

If we can clone a human, who has free thought, then who is to say that we didn't "give him life"

Leave religion out of it altogether.

What is giving life? Without religious tones...

four5.0snomore

03-23-2004, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
How do you know that?

If we can clone a human, who has free thought, then who is to say that we didn't "give him life"

Leave religion out of it altogether.

What is giving life? Without religious tones...

Matt,

You suspect that life can be given a part from God...I know it cannot. Your tomorrow will not except by the grace of God. You cannot seperate something that goes hand in hand. God is the giver of life and God only and we would be bad wrong in trying to do so ourselves.

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 01:08 PM

See, but I don't believe that.

I don't believe that there is some mythical creature in the sky that gives life. I believe life can happen anywhere, anytime, without the consent of a diety.

I'm asking you to think outside the box.

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
See, but I don't believe that.

I don't believe that there is some mythical creature in the sky that gives life. I believe life can happen anywhere, anytime, without the consent of a diety.

I'm asking you to think outside the box. Matt, how can you make what you already have?

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by 281R
Matt, how can you make what you already have?

Brotha, I make dinner all the time. I already have food in front of me, but I make dinner.

We have the ingredients necessary to make life. Who says we can't do it? It's already proven, that it can be done.

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
Brotha, I make dinner all the time. I already have food in front of me, but I make dinner.

We have the ingredients necessary to make life. Who says we can't do it? It's already proven, that it can be done. But life was already made.. Can you make you chicken dinner if the chicken didnt exist?

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 01:18 PM

If you want to make a general statement that humans can make life. In a sense when the sperm and the egg combine yes a new life is formed. But you didnt invent life. Neither did evolution. Life was invented by a creator, so you cant re-invent the wheel.

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by 281R
But life was already made.. Can you make you chicken dinner if the chicken didnt exist?

But which came first, the chicken or the egg? ;)

Why does there have to be a creator?

four5.0snomore

03-23-2004, 01:24 PM

Matt,

Here is what both the Bible and science tell me:

There are 3 parts to ME :)

1. Body or Flesh and Bones

2. Soul (mind, will, and emotions)

3. Spirit (human spirit and the Holy Spirit indwells those saved)

This is biblically provable and scientifically to "some", the others are catching up...

Lee

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt

Why does there have to be a creator? B/c Something dosent come from nothing;)

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Matt,

Here is what both the Bible and science tell me:

There are 3 parts to ME :)

1. Body or Flesh and Bones

2. Soul (mind, will, and emotions)

3. Spirit (human spirit and the Holy Spirit indwells those saved)

This is biblically provable and scientifically to "some", the others are catching up...

Lee

there is no proof of a soul or spirit actually existing. A mind, sure. But the others there is no proof of

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by 281R
B/c Something dosent come from nothing;)

ok, by that rational. Why not aliens. Why a "god"

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
ok, by that rational. Why not aliens. Why a "god" believe what you want to believe, but IMO God has proven more to me in my life IMO than aliens have;)

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 01:36 PM

I don't believe in aliens, there is no proof they exist. No solid proof.

Which is also why I don't believe in a god. There is no solid proof.

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
I don't believe in aliens, there is no proof they exist. No solid proof.

Which is also why I don't believe in a god. There is no solid proof. and there is no proof that something comes from nothing, so I guess your just in a delima huh?

MoonDog

03-23-2004, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
I don't believe in aliens, there is no proof they exist. No solid proof.

Which is also why I don't believe in a god. There is no solid proof.
So by faith you believe that there is no God, right? Before you said you know for a fact that God does not exist.

In reality you just haven't seen any proof of one. But neither have you seen proof against the existance.

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 02:17 PM

I said, earlier, "I know" there isn't a god.

I know. Just as "you know" there is.

nothing different between the two.

And here's an excellent question... If something can't come from nothing, then where did God come from?

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt

And here's an excellent question... If something can't come from nothing, then where did God come from? I dont know, that is our logic not necessarily His. I'll have to ask Him when I get to Heaven:D

MoonDog

03-23-2004, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
I said, earlier, "I know" there isn't a god.

I know. Just as "you know" there is.

nothing different between the two.

And here's an excellent question... If something can't come from nothing, then where did God come from?
I dont know the answer to that. All I know is that He has always existed. He exists outside time, He is known as the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. We take that as God never having a beginning but being the beginning. It is hard to understand being a finite creature with a finite mind.

You ask me where God came from, I ask you, if the universe started with a big bang what got the atoms going in motion?

Newton's first law of physics tells us that an object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. Newton's third law of physics tells us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The atoms could not have started on their own, something had to get them going to begin with.

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
I dont know the answer to that. All I know is that He has always existed. He exists outside time, He is known as the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. We take that as God never having a beginning but being the beginning. It is hard to understand being a finite creature with a finite mind.

You ask me where God came from, I ask you, if the universe started with a big bang what got the atoms going in motion?

Newton's first law of physics tells us that an object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. Newton's third law of physics tells us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The atoms could not have started on their own, something had to get them going to begin with.

that is not necessarily true.

There have been cases where an atom untampered with, somehow exploded. Scientists believe that because and Atom is actually made up of smaller parts, that some sore of instability in the atom may have caused an electron to lose orbit, and colide with the nucleus.

I'm just sayin

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
The atoms could not have started on their own, something had to get them going to begin with. well even before that, something would have to create them.

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by 281R
well even before that, something would have to create them.

exactly, before god could create an entire universe, something had to create him...

this is an endless cycle :)

MoonDog

03-23-2004, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
that is not necessarily true.

There have been cases where an atom untampered with, somehow exploded. Scientists believe that because and Atom is actually made up of smaller parts, that some sore of instability in the atom may have caused an electron to lose orbit, and colide with the nucleus.

I'm just sayin
Still, we have the first law pf physics to deal with. If an electron is spinning around the nucleus, it is going to keep spinning in the same direction unless something acts against it.

Sould we rewite Newton's laws?

Bottom line, science has no answer for this. They cannot explain how things got going in the first place. They cannot even tell you how an atom is held together. Their answer is "a strong force". ummmm...

The Big Matt

03-23-2004, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by MoonDog
Still, we have the first law pf physics to deal with. If an electron is spinning around the nucleus, it is going to keep spinning in the same direction unless something acts against it.

Sould we rewite Newton's laws?

Bottom line, science has no answer for this. They cannot explain how things got going in the first place. They cannot even tell you how an atom is held together. Their answer is "a strong force". ummmm...

The same force Obi Wan uses? haha

sorry

The Punisher

03-23-2004, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
exactly, before god could create an entire universe, something had to create him...

In human logic I guess that could mean yes..

MoonDog

03-23-2004, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
The same force Obi Wan uses? haha

sorry
Midichlorians? Thats got to be it. Qui-Gon Jinn said so.

four5.0snomore

03-23-2004, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by The Big Matt
exactly, before god could create an entire universe, something had to create him...

this is an endless cycle :)

Your perception is from a human mind with much limitation...you cannot expect to have the mind of God...I know you say he doesn't exist, but we are discussing who created Him...IF...so if there is a god, then why does he have to be created - He is God!

trey85stang

03-25-2004, 01:35 PM