Controversial topic I guess: I don't mean to be pushy

[Monsoon X]

Moondog, Lee, 281R-

The sinner's prayer that I saw you guys post up got me to thinking.

So the best way I know how, here goes:

Do you guys not feel that water baptism is also needed (as well as aking Jesus into your heart) for salvation?

In my opinion there is far too many evidences of Baptism going hand in hand with the conversion process for Christianity. I don't think you can have one without the other.

First you accept then you get baptized, as soon as possible.

I really can't see how it can be ommitted. And it's something that I have to hold firm to because it is too much ingrained into the whole repenting/salvation process.

Your thoughts?

[four5.0snomore]

JC,

I will get back to you on this one when I have a few minutes to sit down and type. BUT, to wet your lips a bit...

Baptism is not a part of salvation, just as the Lord's Supper is not a part of salvation. Baptism I teach and preach is the 1st act of obedience towards God, but in no way does it save you.

1. There is an example to follow in the NT of being immersed in water - even Jesus was baptized (but he was not "saved" because of it).

2. It is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord.

3. It is symbolic of a cleansing - but not cleansing in itself. It is the blood of Jesus which cleanses not H2o.

4. It is representative to the church body that you have believed.

Nowhere in scripture does God make mention of the act or the water having any saving power. In order to be saved you believe and so on...

Oops...that was a couple of minutes and now I must run - more to come...

Lee

[Monsoon X]

Lee, in Christian Love I just can't see how you guys come to this conclusion.

And again it is plain to see that the disciples baptized people in order to convert them.

1.) No Jesus wasn't not "saved" because of it. Jesus didn't need to do anything to be saved. John knew this but, Jesus knew that it needed to be done anyway so he could start his mission. Lead by example. He came to show us the way.

2.) Yes, I agree. It is symbolic to the death, burial and resurrection.

3.) I agree partly, it is not a physical cleansing. It is a spiritual one.

1 Peter 3: 20-22 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Matt 28) The disciples were commanded to go forth and baptize.

Mk 16: 16 )....he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

John 3:5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 )After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing

John 4:1-2) Jesus and his disciples were baptizing.

Acts 2:38) Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I could go on.

[MoonDog]

Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Here Jesus says that before He came John was baptizing with water, but now we are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
In this instance it says that who ever believes in Jesus will be saved and while Peter was talking they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. Only then after they were saved where they baptized in water.

I can find only one instance in the NT where a person was baptized with water first. The eunuch in Acts 8:36.

Although I dont believe that baptizim in water is a requirement for salvation I believe that we are to be like Jesus and do the things that Jesus did. Since He Himself was baptized in water I believe that we should also be baptized as an public outword showing of our commitment to Christ.

[The Punisher]

I'll post more of this later when I have time, but I dont believe that you have to be baptized to be saved.

[Monsoon X]

I do not dispute the importance of how the Apostles and those who heard the Apostles word (after Jesus had ascended into heaven) were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

In the verses you gave as an example, notice how as soon as they recieved the holy sprit, which came after they heard the Apostles speak (which it always did), Peter was quickly looking for water to baptize them, to complete the act of salvation.

Speaking of the Enuch. Phillip must've told him about Jesus/Salvation and included the importance of water baptism for the guy to want to find salvation. He then spotted some water and said "hey, there's water"! Let's do this. Phillip first, said "not unless you believe" He said that he did, so Phillip baptized him and completed his salvation.

I really, honestly can't see how this isn't plain. The two go hand in hand for salvation. Complimentary

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
John 3:5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
In regards to this verse, you have to look at the context of the scripture. Nicodemus comes to the Lord and asks Him how someone can be born again, how can he reenter his mothers womb. Jesus replies with the verse you quoted.

I believe what Jesus is explaining here is:

1) Our first birth when we are in the womb we are in a sack of water which is broken just before birth. This is our physical birth. (BORN OF WATER)

2) Our second birth when we become born again we are born of the Spirit. Before salvation we are spiritually dead, when Christ comes into our lives we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is our spiritual birth. (BORN OF THE SPIRIT)

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog
In regards to this verse, you have to look at the context of the scripture. Nicodemus comes to the Lord and asks Him how someone can be born again, how can he reenter his mothers womb. Jesus replies with the verse you quoted.

I believe what Jesus is explaining here is:

1) Our first birth when we are in the womb we are in a sack of water which is broken just before birth. This is our physical birth. (BORN OF WATER)

2) Our second birth when we become born again we are born of the Spirit. Before salvation we are spiritually dead, when Christ comes into our lives we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is our spiritual birth. (BORN OF THE SPIRIT)

That's right. Nicodemus ask how to be born "again". Then Jesus answers him. "you need to be born of water AND the spirit" then you can't enter the kingdom of heaven. Nic was confused on what Jesus meant by "born again" he thought Jesus was meaning a physical rebirth. Jesus clarified it by, explaining what he meant by "born again" He's not combining the natural birth and spiritual rebirth in that one passage. He's stating what it takes to be spiritually reborn.

That's why Jesus allowed himself to be Baptized
That's why He and the disciples, baptized people
That's why Peter looked for water to baptize the people who believed.
That's why Phillip included water in his breakdown of what the Enuch was reading.
That's why Peter says in (1 Peter 3:20-22 that baptism now saves you, not by a physical cleansing but, a spiritual one. Peter prefaced that quote by first explaining how Noah and his family was saved through water)

Read it brothers......it's plain as day.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
He's not combining the natural birth and spiritual rebirth in that one passage.
Oh, but I think He is. Nicodemus thought he had to be born physically twice, Jesus explains you need to be born physically and spiritually.

What about here where it plainly states that simply believing will save you?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Sure in the second passage they are baptized in water afterwards but when Paul and Silas is outright asked how one can be saved they simply state...believe. They didn't say believe and be baptized. Baptism in water was always done after conversion.

[Monsoon X]

In that same letter that he wrote to the Romans in ch.6: 3-4 Paul explains that through baptism we have been buried with Christ, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life"

As far as the convo between Nic and Jesus, we can go back and forth but, I say that I feel that it's logical to realize that Jesus was talking about the importance of water and the holy spirit to enter the kingdom. Especially in light of the relation of water to the examples He gave us for water baptism and what the Apostles did and preached.

Acts 16? Yes, soon after they were all baptized. Why? Because it completes the conversion process. Water is and always done after one hears, believes, confess that Jesus is the Son of God. Afterwards.........what happens? They're baptized.
So yeah, it is done after they believe, it is what completes the conversion process.

I'm through.
JC

[MoonDog]

I dont dispute the importance of water baptism. And yes it is spoken about throughout the NT but I really dont see where it is a requirement for salvation. If a person is saved and they are able to be baptized with water then I believe that they should do it at their earliest convenience but if someone is unable for one reason or another I dont think it will make a difference.

Maybe someone else has something to add.

[2cammer97]

I disagree JC, i don't think Baptism is necessary for salvation. i do think it is important in signifying your relationship and rebirth in Christ. but it doesn't keep you from having a relationship or rebirth with Christ and getting to Heaven.

lets say hypothetically that a persons prays the prayer of salvation and accepts Jesus into their heart on a wednesday. they plan to publicly announce this to a church body and get baptized on sunday, but are killed or die on friday. do they not get into heaven?

marcus

[four5.0snomore]

JC - in all your posts here you are stating that it follows and therefore completes the salvation process, but nowhere in scripture does it say that. I totally agree that it is a command which is stated in the bible again and again. I totally agree that God wants people to be baptized and I think it is disobedient to refuse to be.

It is just like a wedding ring doesn't make me married, it is the commitment and relationship that do.

To follow your logic, if one repents and believes (which is all the work of the Holy Spirit) then one is not saved, right?

Following this logic through however you quickly become one contradicting the plan of redemption in that Christ did it all and there is nothing I can add to it. I can do nothing to be saved including baptism. I am asked dozens of times in the NT to believe, repent, ask, call upon....to be saved, not once am I asked to be baptized to be saved. Not once did Jesus say you must be baptized to be saved, but he said COME with the faith of a little child.

What happens if you are saved moments before death?

What happens if you are saved in the desert w/ no water?

What happens if you have an ugly disease and cannot make contact with water?

What you have is an old Church of Christ doctrine that takes a few "controversial" scriptures out of context to make a pet doctrine. None of the scriptures you have given say anything about baptism as a part of the plan of redemption. How can you read the book of Hebrews and see anything but Christ's work is complete if by faith I accept that finished work and apply it to my life.

I will leave you with this scripture...

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

If it required any "works" on our behalf the above scripture is a lie. How does grace fit into baptism? What kind of gift comes with attachments? If I do not agree with your doctrine of baptism, even though I have been baptized, I am going to hell?

In Christ - with Love!

Lee

[MoonDog]

Good reading.

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/other/baptism/baptism1.html

[Monsoon X]

Let me clear this up first.

Church of Christ. I do not feel that you need to be in this Church to go to heaven, I don't feel the name is important, I don't care if you like music or not (it doesn't make a difference) So please don't think that.

What I do believe is water baptism.

You guys disagree. Then fine. I believe the facts are clearly laid out in scripture.

Lee, I'm not gonna break down your post because I promised myself when I started this thread that I wasn't gonna argue with my brother in Christ.

But, I'll end with this. I've shown you where, the Apostles were baptized, I've shown you where Jesus was baptized. I've shown you where Peter says what baptism is and what it does (You guys haven't even touched that scripture) You've seen it connected with the conversion process.

My logic is and has always been (I've made this plain and clear) that I feel baptism completes the process) You change the words to say that I feel that I need to add something to Jesus sacrifice. "I" am not adding a thing. God added it. Jesus added it. The Apostles preached it and practiced it.

You say the NT doesn't ask you to be baptized? I showed you that Peter asked you in 1 Peter. You were told when the people asked Peter in Acts 2:37, "what must they do to be saved" to which he replied "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

Asking me hypothetical questions about "what happens if you die before being baptized", prompts me to ask the same of you.

What if the person can't speak? Going by you guys' logic in Romans 10 one only needs to confess with their mouths. What if he can't confess?

My point is that you can't build an entire doctrine around a scenario. All of this is God's plan of salvation.

Annanais instructed Paul the same thing (Acts 22:16--And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. )

Brothers there's too much there to simply cast aside.

But, do as you wish.

In Christian Love also,
JC

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
I've shown you where Peter says what baptism is and what it does (You guys haven't even touched that scripture)

My link that I posted answered this question.
The Holy Spirit is quick to say that the baptism He is referring to is not washing away dirt - it is not water. He is referring to a baptism that is symbolic of a clean conscience before God. This is a strange thought to us and seems to be unimportant, but scripture says the type of conscience we have indicates our eternal destiny. False teachers have a "seared conscience (1 Tim. 4:2)." According to Acts 24:16; Titus 1:15; Heb. 9:9,14; 10:22; 13:18, the conscience represents either sinful or godly motives and desires. What saves us? 1 Timothy 1:19 indicates a bad conscience indicates an individual going to hell. So just as the ark saved Noah, a good conscience IS NOW SAVING you because of the resurrection of Jesus. Notice the capitalized letters. The Greek tense of "save" implies we are being saved now - it is not a future event. You see, the clean conscience is proof you are saved.
Paul sheds some light on this in Ephesians 5:26 That He might sanctify and cleanse us by the washing of water by the word. In John 1:1, we are told that Christ is the word. Christ's blood is the 'water' that truly cleanses us. (Rev 7:14 These are they which... have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.) This is the true washing of the water by the Word.

Also you must remember, even though the Apostles were all baptized it wasn't until Christ died and blood was shed that they became saved. It is only by the shedding of blood that our sins can be forgiven.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by MoonDog
My link that I posted answered this question.

Paul sheds some light on this in Ephesians 5:26 That He might sanctify and cleanse us by the washing of water by the word. In John 1:1, we are told that Christ is the word. Christ's blood is the 'water' that truly cleanses us. (Rev 7:14 These are they which... have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.) This is the true washing of the water by the Word.

Also you must remember, even though the Apostles were all baptized it wasn't until Christ died and blood was shed that they became saved. It is only by the shedding of blood that our sins can be forgiven. that is what I was going to say, Ditto

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog


Paul sheds some light on this in Ephesians 5:26 That He might sanctify and cleanse us by the washing of water by the word. In John 1:1, we are told that Christ is the word. Christ's blood is the 'water' that truly cleanses us. (Rev 7:14 These are they which... have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.) This is the true washing of the water by the Word.



uh-huh. And how do you think we are connected with His blood?

No. The water doesn't "clean" you. Like 1 Peter said. But what it does do is connect you with Christ's Death, Burial and Resurrection

Romans 6:3-5Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

OMGoodness! How is this not plain?

[four5.0snomore]

Well JC, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I did not think you were an old time Church of Christ guy anyways and I did not guess that you held the other "beliefs". I like the debate and would like to keep it going if you are willing. We can be passionate about non-essential doctrines as long as it is discussion in love and it doesn't divide us as brothers in Christ.

If you want me to throw another kink into our discussion I shall. Because I believe the Bible clearly describes 3 baptisms, none of which is necessary to be saved, but most christians will partake that really chose to follow Christ.

1. baptism of water - outward sign of inward change
2. baptism of the Holy Spirit - one time indwelling, continually seek to be filled daily
3. baptism of fire - trials and tribulations to grow into Christlike character

JC - do you agree with a somewhat common Pentecostal arguement that you must be filled with the Holy Spirit and manifest a gift of the spirit in order to be saved? This is close to the idea you present...

[01WhiteCobra]

What? Disagreement to the wording of the bible?

[Barbie]

I didn't read any of the thread except the first post, but my religion doesn't believe in "being saved" and "accepting Jesus"

you have been saved ever since Jesus died and rose again. there is nothing YOU can do to save yourself (ie: accepting Jesus)

[four5.0snomore]

Barbie,

What religion is this? Please explain a bit further about your beliefs. Thanks.

Lee

[DT2]

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
What? Disagreement to the wording of the bible?

I believe the bible has many contradictions. I'm a Baptist. I believe that Baptism finishes the process in accepting Jesus as your Savior. Because you are Baptised in front of many people and you announce to the entire congregation that you do accept Jesus purely into your heart. Also it's proving to Him that you are commited to the relationship between you and Him.

Thats the way I see it.

But as long as time goes on, people will always have different views on this.

I don't believe in once saved always saved either, because if you're baptized it doesn't give you the right to go out and act total un-Christian and then believe that no matter what sins you commit you'll always be saved.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by DT2
I believe the bible has many contradictions. So you believe the Bible contradicts itself? Or do you mean that people contradict with each other b/c of mis-understandings or different understandings of the Bible?

[DT2]

Originally posted by 281R
So you believe the Bible contradicts itself? Or do you mean that people contradict with each other b/c of mis-understandings or different understandings of the Bible?

Both. I believe the King James version of the bible was written to conform to the beliefs of King James himself, therefore making it no where near the original text of the bible. And I also believe that we as people have been to a point misguided as to what exactly the bible means. the scripture can be interpreted in many different ways. In one line of scripture, you could read it one way and I could think it means something totally different.

Just my way of seeing things.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Barbie
I didn't read any of the thread except the first post, but my religion doesn't believe in "being saved" and "accepting Jesus"

you have been saved ever since Jesus died and rose again. there is nothing YOU can do to save yourself (ie: accepting Jesus)
And what religion would this be? Since the bible says otherwise, it cant be Christianity.

Several places in the NT it poses the question "What must I do to be saved?" Answer: Believe and confess. Sounds like we have to do something in order to be saved. It also says that faith without works is dead. Again, we must do something. The Bible says to work out your own salvation. ummm, theres that word work again.

Originally posted by DT2
Both. I believe the King James version of the bible was written to conform to the beliefs of King James himself, therefore making it no where near the original text of the bible.
If the KJV is supposed to be King James' beliefs then why does the Bible that we have today read almost word for word with the Dead Sea Scrolls of the OT texts that were written well over 2,500 years ago?

[DT2]

Originally posted by MoonDog

If the KJV is supposed to be King James' beliefs then why does the Bible that we have today read almost word for word with the Dead Sea Scrolls of the OT texts that were written well over 2,500 years ago?

I believe that there were some changes made that KJ wanted made. Just my opinion. I'm not going to get into an argument over this because everyone single person here believes something totally different.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by DT2
I believe that there were some changes made that KJ wanted made.
But I just told you that it reads the same now as it did 2,500 years ago. How did King James have anything to do with it? :confused: No argument here, you made an incorrect statement and I just thought I would clear it but I guess people believe whatever they want regardless if their right or wrong.

[DT2]

Originally posted by MoonDog
But I just told you that it reads the same now as it did 2,500 years ago. How did King James have anything to do with it? :confused: No argument here, you made an incorrect statement and I just thought I would clear it but I guess people believe whatever they want regardless if their right or wrong.

its something I learned when i was younger, and something that I've grown up knowing. so like I said everyone has their own beliefs as to whos right and whos wrong... that will come with judgment.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Well JC, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I did not think you were an old time Church of Christ guy anyways and I did not guess that you held the other "beliefs". I like the debate and would like to keep it going if you are willing. We can be passionate about non-essential doctrines as long as it is discussion in love and it doesn't divide us as brothers in Christ. I wouldn't limit my views to a "Church of Christ" doctrine. A part of me let go of the old "traditions" of the C.O.C. a long time ago. Mainly, because I know what I read. And alot of the doctirine that they preach in the C.O.C. just didn't vibe with scripture. And that's also how I feel about doctrine that doesn't teach water baptism as a part of the salvation process. I've had to let go alot of my old theology in order to stay true to the word of God and drop man's traditions of how man thinks is best to serve Him. Water baptism is not what I would consider a non-essential doctrine.


If you want me to throw another kink into our discussion I shall. Because I believe the Bible clearly describes 3 baptisms, none of which is necessary to be saved, but most christians will partake that really chose to follow Christ.

1. baptism of water - outward sign of inward change
2. baptism of the Holy Spirit - one time indwelling, continually seek to be filled daily
3. baptism of fire - trials and tribulations to grow into Christlike character I disagree with # 1



JC - do you agree with a somewhat common Pentecostal arguement that you must be filled with the Holy Spirit and manifest a gift of the spirit in order to be saved? This is close to the idea you present... No. I don't. How did I present this idea?

[mustvid]

I'm very happy to see this forum added to DFWSTANGS. This is an interesting discusion. Consider this from the book of Luke which includes the account of two criminals crucified with Jesus.

23:39 One of the criminals who was hanging there railed at him, saying, "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 23:40 But the other rebuked him, saying, "Don't you fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 23:41 And we rightly so, for we are getting what we deserve for what we did, but this man has done nothing wrong." 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Bible reference:
Jesus, remember me is a statement of faith from the cross, as Jesus saves another even while he himself is dying. This man's faith had shown itself when he rebuked the other thief. He hoped to be with Jesus sometime in the future in the kingdom.

My Thoughts:
Although I believe baptism is a very important part of discipleship I believe this scripture clearly shows that it is not essential to salvation. This criminal could come down from the cross and be baptised by water. He certainly expressed faith that Jesus was God which is the triggering event to salvation. Faith and the expression of faith is the essential element of salvation.

This is my two cents worth. An excellent Bible web site where I got this is Bible.org.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by mustvid
I'm very happy to see this forum added to DFWSTANGS. This is an interesting discusion. Consider this from the book of Luke which includes the account of two criminals crucified with Jesus.

23:39 One of the criminals who was hanging there railed at him, saying, "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 23:40 But the other rebuked him, saying, "Don't you fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 23:41 And we rightly so, for we are getting what we deserve for what we did, but this man has done nothing wrong." 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom." 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Bible reference:
Jesus, remember me is a statement of faith from the cross, as Jesus saves another even while he himself is dying. This man's faith had shown itself when he rebuked the other thief. He hoped to be with Jesus sometime in the future in the kingdom.

My Thoughts:
Although I believe baptism is a very important part of discipleship I believe this scripture clearly shows that it is not essential to salvation. This criminal could come down from the cross and be baptised by water. He certainly expressed faith that Jesus was God which is the triggering event to salvation. Faith and the expression of faith is the essential element of salvation.

This is my two cents worth. An excellent Bible web site where I got this is Bible.org.

I certainly agree with the fact that the triggering event to salvation is the expression of faith. Ending with the culminating event of baptism. Jesus had all power given to Him on Earth, If He chose to make an exception because of His eternal love then He has all sovereignty to do so. But we can't make up a seperate doctrine simply based off an exception that only God has the authority to make. The disciples preached baptism, and performed it, right after the triggering event of faith and believing. Therefore it HAS to be preached by us. When the people asked them (Acts 2:37) "What must we do to be saved" We need to give the same answer that Peter gave. Annanais told Paul to "be baptized and wash away his sins" Peter even told us in 1 Peter, what baptism symbolizes. Paul says it in Romans.

I just don't know what else to say about it.

:)

It's there, in plain view.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
I certainly agree with the fact that the triggering event to salvation is the expression of faith. Ending with the culminating event of baptism. Jesus had all power given to Him on Earth, If He chose to make an exception because of His eternal love then He has all sovereignty to do so. But we can't make up a seperate doctrine simply based off an exception that only God has the authority to make. The disciples preached baptism, and performed it, right after the triggering event of faith and believing. Therefore it HAS to be preached by us. When the people asked them (Acts 2:37) "What must we do to be saved" We need to give the same answer that Peter gave. Annanais told Paul to "be baptized and wash away his sins" Peter even told us in 1 Peter, what baptism symbolizes. Paul says it in Romans.

I just don't know what else to say about it.

:)

It's there, in plain view.
If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then why would He even think about making an exception for someone? And if He made and exception for one person then would He not be obligated to make an exception for all? Your logic is alittle confusing.:confused:

[breadfan35]

I just want to say that I've really enjoyed this discussion. Over the years I've often heard this question posed, but without the discussion to reach an answer. I have not made a firm decision as to what I believe, but I lean more to " it is not needed for salvation". However, I do believe that Baptism is a great thing and that if you have the chance to do it, you should.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog
If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow then why would He even think about making an exception for someone? And if He made and exception for one person then would He not be obligated to make an exception for all? Your logic is alittle confusing.:confused:

The Bible gives us a complete view (what he wanted us to know) about Him. From front to back, beginning to end. Throughout the Bible, things changed. It gives us a complete view of the plan of God. The way He planned it from before the beginning. When God decided to change things, He did. He did it a number of times.

If we hold dogmatically to the text in Hebrews (that you referenced) then we would still be doing animal sacrifices.

The reason I feel this way is because of the numerous examples of baptism and the direct quotes to it being an essential part of the salvation process, that are shown to us in the Bible. I see where faith alone saved someone. I also see where faith and baptism completed the process. I actually see more of the latter in the NT. They have to be reconciled together as a whole not in part.

If baptism was such a non-essential part of the salvation process then why did they preach it? Why stop a chariot in the middle of the road? Why baptize in the middle of the night? Why does Peter tell us what the process is a representation of? Why did Phillip tell the enuch about it? Why did Paul include it to his letter to the Roman church? Why, why? why? :)

[mustvid]

I don't see this as Jesus making an exception. The more I read what you have written the more confused I get by your responses. Many good examples of salvation have been given yet you refuted them all. Are you saying that a person can't be saved without beng baptized? Baptism is a clear public expression of faith in Jesus. It is the next thing to happen after salvation leading to discipleship. However, I've never read any where in the Bible that indicated you are not saved unless Baptized. Faith is what the church builds upon the corner stone of Christ. I've been to many Evangelical churches and never heard this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you as well. Or, maybe we are saying the same thing but in a different way.

[mustvid]

Here is a link you might readhttp://www.bible.org/illus/b/b-11.htm

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Water baptism is not what I would consider a non-essential doctrine.

What do you say to someone like me, who was baptized yet doesn't believe it was absolutely necessary - just important and something to obey? Did it complete my salvation without me knowing or believing it did so? Am I in danger, since I disagree with this doctrine? I am seriously wanting to know how you would respond to these questions...

Originally posted by Monsoon X
I disagree with # 1

Okay, my point was this: If you say baptism of water is necessary to "complete" the salvation (by grace) process, then why are the others not? They to are spoken of by Jesus and the apostles and there are "many" expamples of them as well.


Originally posted by Monsoon X
No. I don't. How did I present this idea?

What I was looking for here was your thoughts and insight into this being a similar "non-traditional" doctrine that many do adhere to just like your opinion on water baptism. You did not present the idea - it is similar to the one you presented. Your thoughts? If water baptism is necessary, why isn't the baptism of the spirit proven by seeing a gift operating in the believer? Again, this is spoken of much more so than water baptism in the NT.

[JohnStang]

do not know if this will help, but it is my interpretation of The Bibile:
Baptism is an issue of Lordship and an essential component of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. it is also the symbol of commitment. it has the same value as circumsicion did in the O/T. it "inducts" you into the family and makes you a new creature in covenant with God. you also do not have to have full understanding of its meaning or value before doing it. just as circumsicion, it is done while you are a babe in Christ.
Romans 6:1-4 likens it to death and resurrection.
it does not give us "salvation" but is a part of it. it saves us from the judgement of God- 2 Peter 2:5/ 1Peter 3:20-21/ Act 2:38
it is part of the 2 sacraments of Christ (communion/baptism)

sacrament- something, commanded & to be obeyed in faith, obseved perpetually and grace is administerd.
it is a great part of salvation.

Hebrews 6:1-3

[JohnStang]

Originally posted by MoonDog
In regards to this verse, you have to look at the context of the scripture. Nicodemus comes to the Lord and asks Him how someone can be born again, how can he reenter his mothers womb. Jesus replies with the verse you quoted.

I believe what Jesus is explaining here is:

1) Our first birth when we are in the womb we are in a sack of water which is broken just before birth. This is our physical birth. (BORN OF WATER)

2) Our second birth when we become born again we are born of the Spirit. Before salvation we are spiritually dead, when Christ comes into our lives we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is
our spiritual birth. (BORN OF THE SPIRIT)

Jesus was plainly talking about water baptism, it is redundant to think that Jesus was explainly, to a fairly educated man, than in order to be saved you have to be alive. aka- a human being that was first born. that implies that Nicodemus was thinking that those things that have not even been born are saved.also, when Christ comes into our lives we do not recive the Hoily Spirit, that is something that is recieved after we are saved and we must ask for it. Acts:2 shows that. if that was the case then the Desciples in the upper room were not saved until the Spirit fell

[JohnStang]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by four5.0snomore
[B]JC - in all your posts here you are stating that it follows and therefore completes the salvation process, but nowhere in scripture does it say that. I totally agree that it is a command which is stated in the bible again and again. I totally agree that God wants people to be baptized and I think it is disobedient to refuse to be.

It is just like a wedding ring doesn't make me married, it is the commitment and relationship that do.

To follow your logic, if one repents and believes (which is all the work of the Holy Spirit) then one is not saved, right?

Following this logic through however you quickly become one contradicting the plan of redemption in that Christ did it all and there is nothing I can add to it. I can do nothing to be saved including baptism. I am asked dozens of times in the NT to believe, repent, ask, call upon....to be saved, not once am I asked to be baptized to be saved. Not once did Jesus say you must be baptized to be saved, but he said COME with the faith of a little child.

What happens if you are saved moments before death?

What happens if you are saved in the desert w/ no water?

What happens if you have an ugly disease and cannot make contact with water?

What you have is an old Church of Christ doctrine that takes a few "controversial" scriptures out of context to make a pet doctrine. None of the scriptures you have given say anything about baptism as a part of the plan of redemption. How can you read the book of Hebrews and see anything but Christ's work is complete if by faith I accept that finished work and apply it to my life.

I will leave you with this scripture...

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

If it required any "works" on our behalf the above scripture is a lie. How does grace fit into baptism? What kind of gift comes with attachments? If I do not agree with your doctrine of baptism, even though I have been baptized, I am going to hell?

i am not trying to be rude with any of my responces, i hope that i do not seem that way, i just get excited about the Bible, but if what you are saying is true then why does Paul say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling daily. for your last par on works look at sacrament and what it means. but if i am not mistaken to repent is a work, is it not. we are required to repent in order to have salvation. the literal translation of repent means to turn away from and run. aka- those thing in our life that went against God's word, must not be a part of our life anymore. i do not beleive that by works your are saved, Jesus said that i am thre only good one, t/f no one else is so no matter what they do they are not good enough, but it does require effort on our part. you can not say some prayer, be baptized and live in continuos disobediance (intentionally) of God's law and expect that you will enter the Gates of Heaven.

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by JohnStang
[QUOTE]i am not trying to be rude with any of my responces, i hope that i do not seem that way, i just get excited about the Bible, but if what you are saying is true then why does Paul say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling daily. for your last par on works look at sacrament and what it means. but if i am not mistaken to repent is a work, is it not. we are required to repent in order to have salvation. the literal translation of repent means to turn away from and run. aka- those thing in our life that went against God's word, must not be a part of our life anymore. i do not beleive that by works your are saved, Jesus said that i am thre only good one, t/f no one else is so no matter what they do they are not good enough, but it does require effort on our part. you can not say some prayer, be baptized and live in continuos disobediance (intentionally) of God's law and expect that you will enter the Gates of Heaven.

JohnStang - you are not being rude :) .

I am glad you joined the discussion. "We" play no part in our salvation as it is God that calls us, God that draws us to Him, God that gives us the faith to believe, God that does the regenerating work, God that gives us the ability to repent. When scripture says, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" it is saying as 1 Cor. 12 says - "judge yourselves that ye be not judged" or paraphrasing "Remember the judgement seat of Christ". It is God's work by His grace we are saved. Sacraments as you say (word not in the Bible) are important and we should be obedient in baptism and taking the Lord's Supper, but neither of the 2 in any way "complete" our salvation. With your last sentence I agree, as long as you also believe in the eternal security of one who is "truly" saved.

Lee

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by mustvid
I don't see this as Jesus making an exception. The more I read what you have written the more confused I get by your responses. Many good examples of salvation have been given yet you refuted them all. Are you saying that a person can't be saved without beng baptized? Baptism is a clear public expression of faith in Jesus. It is the next thing to happen after salvation leading to discipleship. However, I've never read any where in the Bible that indicated you are not saved unless Baptized. Faith is what the church builds upon the corner stone of Christ. I've been to many Evangelical churches and never heard this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you as well. Or, maybe we are saying the same thing but in a different way.

Okay, let me see if I can clear the confusion. You have shown me many good examples of salvation? Where? You've only shown me the theif on the cross. I didn't refute it as a invalid act of salvation. I said that Jesus hadn't brought in the New Covenant yet. All power was given to Him and He excercised it as He saw fit, in accordance with his righteous judgement, in order to save souls. I haven't seen other examples of salvation without baptism unless it was the OT or before The Christ was ressurected. All other examples of salvation included water baptism soon after (Acts 8:12, 36-39; 9:18; 10:47; 16:15) Soon after dude! Again i tell it to you. The Enuch knew nothing about what he was reading. Nothing at all. The bible doesn't say what Phillip told him, but soon after the Enuch wanted to be baptized. C'mon man! All the examples are right there.

Faith in Jesus Christ IS the corner stone of the Christian faith! And it is this faith that leads us to belief and then leads us to want to get baptized so that we may be buried with Him. (Romans 6:3-4)

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
What do you say to someone like me, who was baptized yet doesn't believe it was absolutely necessary - just important and something to obey? Did it complete my salvation without me knowing or believing it did so? Am I in danger, since I disagree with this doctrine? I am seriously wanting to know how you would respond to these questions... I would say to you and a person like you; to be baptized again. Just like Paul required some believers in Acts to be rebaptized, correctly. (Acts 19: 1-7)



Okay, my point was this: If you say baptism of water is necessary to "complete" the salvation (by grace) process, then why are the others not? They to are spoken of by Jesus and the apostles and there are "many" expamples of them as well.I'm sorry. I'm missing something here. "Others"????


What I was looking for here was your thoughts and insight into this being a similar "non-traditional" doctrine that many do adhere to just like your opinion on water baptism. You did not present the idea - it is similar to the one you presented. Your thoughts? If water baptism is necessary, why isn't the baptism of the spirit proven by seeing a gift operating in the believer? Again, this is spoken of much more so than water baptism in the NT. Moondog and I have had a similar conversation. My belief is that the spiritual gifts (healing, tongues, prophecy etc...) have ceased. (According to 1 Corinthians 13:8) The better way of showing the gifts is "Love" (1 Cor 12:31)

This is a really condensed explaination of the whole "gift" discussion. I figured I'd save the whole thing for the inevitable thread about it that will follow. ;) LOL

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
I would say to you and a person like you; to be baptized again. Just like Paul required some believers in Acts to be rebaptized, correctly. (Acts 19: 1-7)

And what would then become of me if I chose not to be rebaptized?


QUOTE]Originally posted by Monsoon X
I'm sorry. I'm missing something here. "Others"???? [/QUOTE]


As previously stated:

1. water baptism
2. baptism of the Spirit
3. fire baptism

Okay, my point was this: If you say baptism of water is necessary to "complete" the salvation (by grace) process, then why are the others not? They to are spoken of by Jesus and the apostles and there are "many" expamples of them as well.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
And what would then become of me if I chose not to be rebaptized? Ask God. :p Seriously though, study the examples and pray about it. Do what your heart of hearts moves you to do. Ya'll told me not to judge, so I won't.



As previously stated:

1. water baptism
2. baptism of the Spirit
3. fire baptism

Okay, my point was this: If you say baptism of water is necessary to "complete" the salvation (by grace) process, then why are the others not? They to are spoken of by Jesus and the apostles and there are "many" expamples of them as well. I believe they are all important. 1.) To connect us with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. To be washed with His blood 2.) To have the Holy Spirit reside in our lives is essential to a continuing walk with God. 3.) To help us grow and get off the "milk" of the word and onto the "meat" (Heb 5: 11-14)

[Monsoon X]

And i think i see what might be a stumbling block to you guys


I'm not saying that WE are helping God save us. WE aren't completing the salvation process. WE aren't helping God. God saves us because the Grace that we obtained through Jesus' sacrifice. Not WE.

Baptism isn't something that was added in to help bring in our salvation. It is what God expects us to do. It's apart of His design for Salvation.

[Monsoon X]

More:


Colossians 2:4-12
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments F8 of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead

[Josh]

Originally posted by DT2
I believe that there were some changes made that KJ wanted made. Just my opinion. I'm not going to get into an argument over this because everyone single person here believes something totally different.
Opinions are appreciated but corroboration of evidence is better suited in such a blanket statement.

[Josh]

I think the key comes in understanding where baptism came from and what it meant. Obviously it was around before Jesus' ministry, because John was baptising when Jesus came into it. So why were people being baptised by John? Not for salvation; because they were still under the old covenant and never was it stated that baptisim was requisite for remission of sin. (eg. blood sacrifice and baptism.) They were getting baptised to show their following of John's doctrine, to say I am a follower of his teaching. Baptisim has not changed. It is still a sign of that followship or allegiance today. We are baptised to show that we believe what Jesus said, nothing more.

Rom 10:8-11 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Nowhere does this passage talk about baptism, but it definately tells you how to be saved.

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Josh
I think the key comes in understanding where baptism came from and what it meant. Obviously it was around before Jesus' ministry, because John was baptising when Jesus came into it. So why were people being baptised by John? Not for salvation; because they were still under the old covenant and never was it stated that baptisim was requisite for remission of sin. (eg. blood sacrifice and baptism.) They were getting baptised to show their following of John's doctrine, to say I am a follower of his teaching. Baptisim has not changed. It is still a sign of that followship or allegiance today. We are baptised to show that we believe what Jesus said, nothing more.

Rom 10:8-11 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Nowhere does this passage talk about baptism, but it definately tells you how to be saved.

Another good point Josh.

[Monsoon X]

Guys, John was a prophet who was specifically called to "prepare the way for the Jesus". John preached a baptism of repentance. People were baptized by John to prepare the way for Jesus' ministry. Yes, the key to all of this is UNDERSTANDING what baptism was and what it meant. Of course John baptized. Not because it was a custom of repentance. They were still under the law, atonement for sins was through sacrifice. But John preached something different. John was called to prepare the way. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11). And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God" (John 1:32-34). So of course water baptism was being done before Jesus. Because John was the prophet called to prepare the way.

I know what Romans 10:8 says. And you're right, nowhere in that passage (when taken out of context) mentions baptism. But in the whole letter of Romans, it does talk about baptism. (Romans 6) Paul wrote a whole letter and sent it to the Roman church, not an excerpt. At the middle and end of Romans 5, Paul is telling us about how we have obtained righteousness from one man's sacrifice (Jesus). And where sin abounded, grace now MORE abounds. Then the thought continues in Roman 6 as he goes into how we are now dead to sin he then explains how were are now dead to sin because How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Peter expounds on this in 1 Peter 3:21, Col 2:4-12 explains it also.

The water, coupled with our faith, belief and acceptance of Christ into our hearts serves a purpose. The purpose is explained many, many times in the NT. The apostles preached it. Jesus did it.

Romans 10:8? I say to you look at the whole letter from Paul.

I ask you now as I've asked you many times in this thread.
What about:
Romans 6: 3-9
1 Peter 3:21
Col 2:4-12
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"
Acts 2:38"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

There are so many more passages that says that we are "baptized into Christ". Baptism is more than a gesture. It is how God wants us to identify with Christ's death and resurrection. I tell you again, there are many, many examples, direct quotes EVERYTHING that shows what baptism does for a repented believer. I'm convinced that the reason you can't see it is because it would mean a change of theology. I've been through it and I know it's hard. But I was more interested in walking with how Jesus and the apostles did it, more than I was with my Pastor, elders, family and the whole Church of Christ doctrine. I did it! And I was scared, I had mental anguish. But I realize now that it was in accordance with the Bible. It's hard bucking tradition. But the facts are there. The MANY, MANY scriptures are there.

It's still a ministry of faith in Christ Jesus. Nothing will change! God changes us through our admission of faith and then letting that faith move us to be baptized where God will finish the operation and wash us with Jesus blood. Paul said it, Peter said it. It was said AGAIN in Acts and AGAIN in Colossians.

My Grandfather was a well-known powerful Gospel preacher in Houston. Loved Jesus, stayed on his knees! He realized one day that he was wrong about something. He told his whole congregation that he had told them something incorrect and that he was going across the street to be baptized and that they should follow.

The facts are there. Follow your heart.

[The Punisher]

I just think that God's meaning of baptism is not the physical act of anything we can do. From all my understandings about God is he looks to the inside of you and not to the outside. So I think he could care less if you are ever dunked or dipped into water. I think the act of asking Him into your heart and accepting His gift from the cross is an internal baptism. What was once old (your soul) is now made new.;) Thats why works and acts wont get you to heaven, its whats inside that counts. But I do believe God dose take joy in seeing you in the act of physical baptism if you heart is the right place. I dont think the physical is necessary though.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by 281R
I just think that God's meaning of baptism is not the physical act of anything we can do. From all my understandings about God is he looks to the inside of you and not to the outside. So I think he could care less if you are ever dunked or dipped into water. I think the act of asking Him into your heart and accepting His gift from the cross is an internal baptism. What was once old (your soul) is now made new.;) Thats why works and acts wont get you to heaven, its whats inside that counts. But I do believe God dose take joy in seeing you in the act of physical baptism if you heart is the right place. I dont think the physical is necessary though.

Seems silly, doesn't it? The whole idea of God using water as a part of his Salvation process. But God always used the "silly" didn't He? Moses couldn't speak well, David was the littlest brother, Jesus was nothing the Jews expected Him to be, Saul wasn't Samuel's idea of God's annointed but, that who was to be Israel's first King. Do we continue to use "our" opinion of how God should do it? That's why the Jews refused the Messiah. He wasn't what they felt a "Messiah" should be. He wasn't "regal" enough!


Salvation is a two way street. Heaven and God have already moved and are waiting for us to make a decision. The people always asked in Acts "What must I do to be saved?" What must I,We, You do? God has done his part, it is up to us to do the work and come to God. That in itself is "work" let me see your faith without your works, and I will make my faith clear to you by my works. 19 You have the belief that God is one, and you do well: the evil spirits have the same belief, shaking with fear. 20 Do you not see, O foolish man, that faith without works is of no use? 21 Was not the righteousness of Abraham our father judged by his works, when he made an offering of Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was helping his works and was made complete by them; 23 And the holy Writings were put into effect which said, And Abraham had faith in God and it was put to his account as righteousness; and he was named the friend of God. 24 You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only. 25 And in the same way, was not the righteousness of Rahab, the loose woman, judged by her works, when she took into her house those who were sent and let them go out by another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead even so faith without works is dead.



I understand your heart is in the right place dude about you think it is an internal baptism but, there's nothing in the scriptures that say that. What the scriptures do lay out many times over is what water baptism does.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Jesus was nothing the Jews expected Him to be,
Yes, and Jesus healed many people in His time on earth by having a lot of the go through different acts to be healed (and some didnt go through and acts), but it wasnt the act that saved them, it was their faith. Point being if you believe in Christ you will go through the acts that please Him. But it isnt the acts that save you, its your faith. So saying that a person is damned b/c he or she has not gone through the physical act of baptism with water (but yet they have faith in Christ). I think it is incorrect to say they will be damned.

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
I ask you now as I've asked you many times in this thread.
What about:
Romans 6: 3-9
1 Peter 3:21
Col 2:4-12
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"
Acts 2:38"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"


Also, you refute of Romans 10:8-13 was not very strong as similar scripture is found throughout the NT without ever mentioning baptism.

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. KJV

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. KJV

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. KJV

1 Tim 1:15-16 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. KJV

Matt 19:25-30 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. KJV (didn't say go be baptized!)

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. KJV

Luke 18:42-43 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God. KJV

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. KJV

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. KJV

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. KJV

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. KJV (it says he was later baptized that night but not it was a required or a completion of salvation!)

Rom 5:9-10 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. KJV (it is the power of the resurrection that saves!)

Rom 8:29-31 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? KJV (nowhere does it speak of baptism in the process)

Rom 10:9-13 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. KJV

ALL OF 1 Corinthians 15 - Paul's message to the church, doesn't mention baptism as any part of salvation.

Eph 2:5-9 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. KJV

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; KJV

Matt 18:3-4 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. KJV

Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV

John 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) KJV

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. KJV

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. KJV

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. KJV

Rom 4:24-25 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. KJV

1 Thess 4:13-15 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. KJV

1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. KJV

By the way, why did John the beloved, never mention a need for baptism to complete salvation...John heard the heartbeat of God?

Why is the phrase completion of salvation not found in scripture?

Actually completion is not found anywhere in the Bible, and complete is found but 3 times never in relatin to baptism...:confused:

I can go on and on with scripture if you like, probably 10 times as many scriptures as you can offer...to use your suggestion to look at the contect of the entire book of Romans, why don't you take a look at the entire NT, which proves clearly that it is not necessary to salvation.

Also, I want to cover your provided scriptures as you so desire...in looking up the word baptism it is found 22 times in the NT and not once in the OT (seems weird as salvation is described in the OT without any reference to baptism). The majority of the 22 times are speaking of John's baptism and the next big group refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and then finally what baptism symbolizes.

To do so I will go to respected men of God (Barnes and Henry) as it will save me much time, but provide a proper interpretation as well.


Acts 22:16

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[And now why tarriest thou?] Why dost thou delay, or wait any longer? These words are not recorded by Luke in Acts 9, where he has given an account of the conversion of Paul; but there is nothing here contradictory to his statement.

[And wash away thy sins] Receive baptism as emblematic of the washing away of sins. It cannot be intended that the external rite of baptism was sufficient to make the soul pure, but that it was an ordinance divinely appointed as expressive of the washing away of sins, or of purifying the heart. Compare Heb 10:22. Sinners are represented in the Scriptures as defiled or polluted by sin. "To wash away the sins" denotes "the purifying of the soul from this polluted influence," 1 Cor 6:11; Rev 1:5; 7:14; Isa 1:16; Ps 51:2,7.

[Calling on the name of the Lord] For pardon and sanctification, Rom 10:13, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." It was proper that this calling on the name of the Lord should be connected with the ordinance of baptism. That ordinance was emblematic of a purifying which the Lord only could produce. It is proper that the rite of baptism should be attended with extraordinary prayer; that he who is to be baptized should make it the occasion of special and very solemn religious exercises. The external rite will avail nothing without the pardoning mercy of God.


1 Peter 3:21

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 3:21

The points of resemblance in the two cases seem to have been these:

(1) There was salvation in both; Noah was saved from death, and we are saved from hell.

(2) Water is employed in both cases-in the case of Noah to uphold the ark; in ours to be a symbol of our purification.

(3) The water in both cases is connected with salvation: in the case of Noah by sustaining the ark; in ours by being a symbol of salvation, of purity, of cleansing, of that by which we may be brought to God. The meaning of this part of the verse, therefore, may be thus expressed: "Noah and his family were saved by water, the antitype to which (to wit, that which in important respects corresponds to that) baptism (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, or the mere application of material water, but that purifying of the heart of which it is the appropriate emblem) now saves us."

[Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh] Not a mere external washing, however solemnly done. No outward ablution or purifying saves us, but that which pertains to the conscience. This important clause is thrown in to guard the statement from the abuse to which it would otherwise be liable, the supposition that baptism has of itself a purifying and saving power. To guard against this, the apostle expressly declares that he means much more than a mere outward application of water.

[But the answer of a good conscience toward God] The word here rendered "answer" eperooteema (NT:1906) means properly a question, an inquiry. It is "spoken of a question put to a convert at baptism, or rather of the whole process of question and answer; that is, by implication, examination, profession" - Robinson, Lexicon. It is designed to mark the spiritual character of the baptismal rite in contrast with a mere external purification, and evidently refers to something that occurred at baptism; some question, inquiry, or examination, that took place then; and it would seem to imply:

(1) that when baptism was performed, there was some question or inquiry in regard to the belief of the candidate;

(2) that an answer was expected, implying that there was a good conscience; that is, that the candidate had an enlightened conscience, and was sincere in his profession; and,

(3) that the real efficacy of baptism, or its power in saving, was not in the mere external rite, but in the state of the heart, indicated by the question and answer, of which that was the emblem.


Romans 6:3

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

[Know ye not] This is a further appeal to the Christian profession, and the principles involved in it, in answer to the objection. The simple argument in this verse and the two following is, that by our very profession made in baptism, we have renounced sin, and have pledged ourselves to live to God.

[So many of us ...] All who were baptized; that is, all professed Christians. As this renunciation of sin had been thus made by all who professed religion, so the objection could not have reference to Christianity in any manner.

[Were baptized] The act of baptism denotes dedication to the service of him in whose name we are baptized. One of its designs is to dedicate or consecrate us to the service of Christ: Thus (1 Cor 10:2), the Israelites are said to have been "baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;" that is, they became consecrated, or dedicated, or bound to him as their leader and lawgiver. In the place before us, the argument of the apostle is evidently drawn from the supposition that we have been solemnly consecrated by baptism to the service of Christ; and that to sin is therefore a violation of the very nature of our Christian profession.

[Into] eis (NT:1519). This is the word which is used in Matt 28:19, "Teach all nations, baptizing them into eis (NT:1519) the name of the Father," etc. It means, being baptized unto his service; receiving him as the Saviour and guide, devoting all unto him and his cause.

[Were baptized unto his death] We were baptized with special reference to his death.


Colossians 2:12

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

[Buried with him in baptism] See the notes at Rom 6:4.

[Wherein also] In which ordinance, or by virtue of that which is signified by the ordinance.

[Ye are risen with him] From the death of sin to the life of religion; Notes Rom 6:4-5; compare the notes at Eph 2:5-6.

[Through the faith of the operation of God] By a firm belief on the agency of God in raising him up; that is, a belief of the fact that God has raised him from the dead. The resurrection of Christ is often represented as the foundation of all our hopes; and, as he was raised from the grave to die no more, so, in virtue of that we are raised from the death of sin to eternal spiritual life. The belief of this is shown by our baptism, whatever be the mode in which that ordinance is performed, and as well shown in one mode as another.


Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[He that believeth] That is, believeth the gospel. "He who credits it to be true, and acts as if it were true." This is the whole of faith. Man is a sinner. He should act on the belief of this truth and repent. There is a God. Man should believe it, and fear and love him, and seek his favor. The Lord Jesus died to save him. To have faith in him is to believe that this is true, and to act accordingly; that is, to trust him, to rely on him, to love him, to feel that we have no merit, and to cast our all upon him. There is a heaven and a hell. To believe this is to credit the account and act as if it were true-to seek the one and avoid the other. We are to die. To believe this is to act as if this were so; to be in readiness for it, and to expect it daily and hourly. In one word, faith is feeling and acting as if there were a God, a Saviour, a heaven, a hell; as if we were sinners and must die; as if we deserved eternal death and were in danger of it; and, in view of all, casting our eternal interests on the mercy of God in Christ Jesus. To do this is to be a Christian: not to do it is to be an infidel.

[Is baptized] Is initiated into the church by the application of water, as significant that he is a sinner, and needs the purifying influences of the Holy Spirit. It is worthy of remark that Jesus has made "baptism" of so much importance. He did not say, indeed, that a man could not be saved without baptism, but he has strongly implied that where this is neglected "knowing it to be a command of the Saviour," it endangers the salvation of the soul. Faith and baptism are the beginnings of a Christian life: the one the beginning of piety in the soul, the other of its manifestation before men or of a profession, of religion. Every man endangers his eternal interest by being ashamed of Christ before men. See Mark 8:38.


Acts 2:38

[Be baptized] See the notes on Matt 3:6,16. The direction which Christ gave to his apostles was that they should baptize all who believed, Matt 28:19; Mark 16:16. The Jews had not been baptized; and a baptism now would be a profession of the religion of Christ, or a declaration made before the world that they embraced Jesus as their Messiah. It was equivalent to saying that they should publicly and professedly embrace Jesus Christ as their Saviour. The gospel requires such a profession, and no one is at liberty to withhold it. A similar declaration is to be made to all who are inquiring the way to life. They are to exercise repentance; and then, without any unnecessary delay, to evince it by partaking of the ordinances of the gospel. If people are unwilling to profess religion, they have none. If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment. Baptism is the application of water, as expressive of the need of purification, and as emblematic of the influences from God that can alone cleanse the soul. It is also a form of dedication to the service of God.


I think this may be the longest post ever, but I wanted to take time to cover all the bases. I am still nowhere close, but it will have to do as it is 10:30, 30 minutes after my bedtime. Hopefully this will help someone (not just you JC) as a good bible study into salvation! :D

[four5.0snomore]

MAAAAAAAN!

I had to take a look at that after clicking on submit, boy that is looooooooooong! Again, I hope it helps! :D

:)Lee:)

[MoonDog]

JC, salvation is a gift from God, by grace not of works. It states this in more than one location in the NT. What you are saying is that our salvation hangs on our works. If I was not to be baptized then according to you I would go to hell. Where is the grace in that? We are saved by grace, not the works of baptizm.

2 Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

[Josh]

Boy Monsoon's gonna be typing all night now. ;)

[JohnStang]

Lee,
you amke some excellent points about faith in Christ and how many have been saved by that faith, but i say to you, what about Satan and the demons, the Bible says that they beleive and tremble at the sound of his name, but they are not saved. T/f beleiving is not enough. i did read that you found baptism 22 times in N/T and 0 in the O/T. every thing that was sent from God in the O/T is a shadow of what was to come in the N/T. i will show you.
everything listed 1st is O/T all 2nd is N/T
will make a nation (Jews,race)/ all who beleive
preisthood(select few)/ we are all part of the Royal preisthood
Law on stone/ Law in our hearts
sacrifices(Leviticus)/ sacrifice of thanksgiving,broken heart, life,ect
covenant by circumcision/ covenant blood
cicumsicion/ water baptism
3,000 killed disobeying God/ 3,000 saved @ Day of Pent.
ect ect
all things are shadows, just as there were steps to being saved as an O/T Jew, there are steps as a N/T "Jew"
look at the Nt as a whole, the scriptures build upon each other. Christ did that continually when he came. the jews would test him and Christ would say yes, but, and add something on. ex-"what is the greatest commandment" that is why we must put the two together. numerous scriptures say that faith saves you, but i have just showed you were faith alone does not save and so does James along with many other scriptures. t/f it is both faith and baptism
Moondog- we must again look at things in their entirety. James says that it is by our works, Paul says that it is by our faith. OH NOOOO the Bible contradicts itself!!! no it is by faith and works. that is why we are judged by our works, because they matter. and this (baptism) is a work that we must do! will it damn us to hell, i am not sure, was a jew still a jew if he wasn't circumsized? God saw that work to be pretty important.


also, it didn't seem that silly to the children of Israel when they were saved by water. put the two together. there are many meanings of the word salvation. this is not really a dispute of if we are saved by being baptized, it is what are we being saved from.
-with love john

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by JohnStang
Lee,
you amke some excellent points about faith in Christ and how many have been saved by that faith, but i say to you, what about Satan and the demons, the Bible says that they beleive and tremble at the sound of his name, but they are not saved. T/f beleiving is not enough. i did read that you found baptism 22 times in N/T and 0 in the O/T. every thing that was sent from God in the O/T is a shadow of what was to come in the N/T. i will show you.
everything listed 1st is O/T all 2nd is N/T
will make a nation (Jews,race)/ all who beleive
preisthood(select few)/ we are all part of the Royal preisthood
Law on stone/ Law in our hearts
sacrifices(Leviticus)/ sacrifice of thanksgiving,broken heart, life,ect
covenant by circumcision/ covenant blood
cicumsicion/ water baptism
3,000 killed disobeying God/ 3,000 saved @ Day of Pent.
ect ect
all things are shadows, just as there were steps to being saved as an O/T Jew, there are steps as a N/T "Jew"
look at the Nt as a whole, the scriptures build upon each other. Christ did that continually when he came. the jews would test him and Christ would say yes, but, and add something on. ex-"what is the greatest commandment" that is why we must put the two together. numerous scriptures say that faith saves you, but i have just showed you were faith alone does not save and so does James along with many other scriptures. t/f it is both faith and baptism
Moondog- we must again look at things in their entirety. James says that it is by our works, Paul says that it is by our faith. OH NOOOO the Bible contradicts itself!!! no it is by faith and works. that is why we are judged by our works, because they matter. and this (baptism) is a work that we must do! will it damn us to hell, i am not sure, was a jew still a jew if he wasn't circumsized? God saw that work to be pretty important.


also, it didn't seem that silly to the children of Israel when they were saved by water. put the two together. there are many meanings of the word salvation. this is not really a dispute of if we are saved by being baptized, it is what are we being saved from.
-with love john

John,

James never says salvation takes both faith and works, nowhere in the Bible says that...James discussion on faith and works pertained to dead faith, and works being a proff of a real faith, that the 2 go hand in hand with a "true" believer.

Lee

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Josh
Boy Monsoon's gonna be typing all night now. ;)

:D LOL:D

[nytmare2000gt]

baptism is a symbol that when you go down into the water, that is the person you were before you were saved, and when you come up out of the water, that is the person you are now, a Christian, but you dont have to be baptized to be a Christian, but you should be as soon as possible after you are saved, and its just another way of making it public.

[breadfan35]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore


James never says salvation takes both faith and works

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing
It's about as useless as a screen door on a submarine

:D