How long has this been here?

[Cartman]

I just saw this forum. this is long overdue for this site. glad this is here.

[Futurama]

Originally posted by Cartman
I just saw this forum. this is long overdue for this site. glad this is here. it was hidden until recently, oh im sorry i meant, invite/ask for request only.

[Cartman]

so you are saying that this forum was hidden because we weren't special. who choose who saw and who didn't? just like most christian always thinking they are better than somebody else because of what ever religion they have. I thought only god can judge man. (other than when man has broken the laws, per the bible man law is also god law):rolleyes:

[Jedi]

This forum has been here since 8/2002. It has been visible in the Top level listing ever since it was created, but was limited in access to prevent stupid people from coming in and disrupting the discussions with their blather.

It was widely advertised throughout the site via stickies in every forum for at least 2 or 3 months.

If you didn't see it then, then too bad. Stop bitching and whining about it.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman
so you are saying that this forum was hidden because we weren't special. who choose who saw and who didn't? just like most christian always thinking they are better than somebody else because of what ever religion they have. I thought only god can judge man. (other than when man has broken the laws, per the bible man law is also god law):rolleyes:

*shakes head and sighs*

First, you say that Christians try to "push" our views on you guys. So Chris PMed me and asked if we wanted a Theology Forum to keep the discussions off the Back Porch. I said yes, that'd be great. It was then advertised publicly. The forum was visible only to those who had an interest either for or against Theology and asked to access, so it wouldn't offend those who didn't want to see it. There are other invisible forums on this site also, Cartman.

Christians/Muslims/Atheists/Agnostics/Aplogetics/Wiccans have been posting in here ever since it was created. Just because you missed the train don't make it seem like we caused some type of deception or trickery.

[Cartman]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
*shakes head and sighs*

First, you say that Christians try to "push" our views on you guys. So Chris PMed me and asked if we wanted a Theology Forum to keep the discussions off the Back Porch. I said yes, that'd be great. It was then advertised publicly. The forum was visible only to those who had an interest either for or against Theology and asked to access, so it wouldn't offend those who didn't want to see it. There are other invisible forums on this site also, Cartman.

Christians/Muslims/Atheists/Agnostics/Aplogetics/Wiccans have been posting in here ever since it was created. Just because you missed the train don't make it seem like we caused some type of deception or trickery.
don't get me wrong I like this forum, but I never saw the sticky and it might be that I may have not been a memeber at that time. but as far as pushing one's idea on others, the christians take top honors. hell they go tell a billion china men that they are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

I believe in god but i don't follow any one religion

[breadfan35]

Originally posted by Cartman
don't get me wrong I like this forum, but I never saw the sticky and it might be that I may have not been a memeber at that time. but as far as pushing one's idea on others, the christians take top honors. hell they go tell a billion china men that they are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

I believe in god but i don't follow any one religion

One might say that America in general takes top honor of pushing of ideas on the world. We go and tell every one that they should be a democracy.

Are there Christians out there that are a little overzealous towards non-believers? Yes. Are there Christians that take completely wrong and twisted views of the Christian faith (GodHatesFags.com) and force it on others? Yes. But you can't judge an entire group on a few that go about it wrong. Not all Muslims are extremist like Al Queda.

And it would be completely fair to say that many non-believers force their views of disbelief on believers when they find out someone they know is a Christian and they are not. I've seen that happen nearly just as much.

[Cartman]

Originally posted by breadfan35
One might say that America in general takes top honor of pushing of ideas on the world. We go and tell every one that they should be a democracy.

Are there Christians out there that are a little overzealous towards non-believers? Yes. Are there Christians that take completely wrong and twisted views of the Christian faith (GodHatesFags.com) and force it on others? Yes. But you can't judge an entire group on a few that go about it wrong. Not all Muslims are extremist like Al Queda.

And it would be completely fair to say that many non-believers force their views of disbelief on believers when they find out someone they know is a Christian and they are not. I've seen that happen nearly just as much.
ok but america was based on the christian faith "In god we trust" ring a bell to you. so it is no wonder that america does what it does. though america does it for the money. but still it is wrong to tell someone that they are not going to heaven cause they are (insert other religion here). hell there are tribes in new zeland (sp?) that used to honor their dead by mummify their dead, but no christian came and said no you have to bury the dead. isn't funny how, since you brought it up, that americans are like those annoying people that go door to door preaching god to who ever will listen, or as america does go country to country to set up people we think will help our country economy.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman
don't get me wrong I like this forum, but I never saw the sticky and it might be that I may have not been a memeber at that time. but as far as pushing one's idea on others, the christians take top honors. hell they go tell a billion china men that they are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

I believe in god but i don't follow any one religion

I have a ton of answers for this but, I want to find out what you believe first. So you said you believe in a god or do you believe in God? It's obvious you believe in heaven and hell because of the offense that you obviously take at the thought of someone saying you are going to hell. The only religions that have a "heaven and hell" are Judaism, Christianity and Islam (I might be wrong but let me know what the others are) I'm enrolled in an Eastern Religion class at this very moment this semester and they do not seem to speak of going to heaven or escaping hell. So what is your Theology?

[Cartman]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
I have a ton of answers for this but, I want to find out what you believe first. So you said you believe in a god or do you believe in God? It's obvious you believe in heaven and hell because of the offense that you obviously take at the thought of someone saying you are going to hell. The only religions that have a "heaven and hell" are Judaism, Christianity and Islam (I might be wrong but let me know what the others are) I'm enrolled in an Eastern Religion class at this very moment this semester and they do not seem to speak of going to heaven or escaping hell. So what is your Theology? well, there is really no answer that I can give other than I believe there is a creator, but I don't think that "god" has impact on our daily lives. I have seen way too much to be convinced otherwise. I don't follow any religion mainly because most religions teach the exact same thing, they just word it differently. I think religion was a tool to control the lower class, and it still is. but from doing alot of "soul searching" I realize that either god put us here or aliens. I hope to you know who that the answer is the 1st.

[JackFlash19]

.......:rolleyes:

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman
well, there is really no answer that I can give other than I believe there is a creator, but I don't think that "god" has impact on our daily lives. I have seen way too much to be convinced otherwise. I don't follow any religion mainly because most religions teach the exact same thing, they just word it differently. I think religion was a tool to control the lower class, and it still is. but from doing alot of "soul searching" I realize that either god put us here or aliens. I hope to you know who that the answer is the 1st.


So do you believe in a god (Like Ra or Osiris, or Vishnu) or do you believe in the Judeo-Christian God (the Creator)?

And you think that religion is used to control the lower class? How is this happening today? How are we being controlled?

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Cartman
don't get me wrong I like this forum, but I never saw the sticky and it might be that I may have not been a memeber at that time. but as far as pushing one's idea on others, the christians take top honors. hell they go tell a billion china men that they are all going to hell because they don't worship Jesus.

I believe in god but i don't follow any one religion Seems to me that you are the one pushing your ideas of what you think about Christians before we even asked you...

[Cartman]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
So do you believe in a god (Like Ra or Osiris, or Vishnu) or do you believe in the Judeo-Christian God (the Creator)?

And you think that religion is used to control the lower class? How is this happening today? How are we being controlled?

I don't call god anything but god. I don't care what his/her/it name is or what religion, all I know to call him is god. I try to live a "good" life as most religion all teach. I know what is right and wrong, for the most part. I have alot of weakness to some things, just like anybody else.


And as for religion being a tool to control lower class people, just look around at any thing that might upset the lower class, and I promise you will see "men of the cloth" swarm in to "help" deal with what ever the problem may be. 9-11, the riots in L.A. the school shootings, etc.... they are used to keep people in line instead of doing what they feel needs to be done at that point and time. They are used to give false hope to poor, sick, and gullible(sp?) people of the world. The only religion where it seems most of the peopl are of upper middle class or higher, which I know isn't correct, seems to be the Jewish people.

And I don't know how to quote another post while posting, the answer to the last post about pushing my ideas of everybody, where do you see me push my ideas on you or anybody else. where do I tell you all of the joys of not following religion. Do I come and knock on your door and tell you my thoughts even if you don't care? Do I go around telling people who think different than me that they are wrong to believe in a god, idol, etc.. NO. I don't got to other countries and tell the people they are going to burn in hell if they don't believe what I do. I don't go to other countries and tell people that the way they did things for the last 200 yrs or so is evil and wrong and they will suffer for it when they die, no. SO please tell me where I pushed any of my ideas on you. I stated an opinion that is all.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Cartman
no. SO please tell me where I pushed any of my ideas on you. I stated an opinion that is all. Stated your opinion exactly... Just like anybody else would. But did anybody ask you what you thought about Christians? no. So you pushed your idea/belief in this thread. Thats all Im stating, nothing more:)

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman
I don't call god anything but god. I don't care what his/her/it name is or what religion, all I know to call him is god. I try to live a "good" life as most religion all teach. I know what is right and wrong, for the most part. I have alot of weakness to some things, just like anybody else. So then it's obvious that you don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god. Okay, it's all good. Now I can go to the next question. So what does your god tell you? It's obvious you give in to the idea that there is a higher entity up in the house ;) So how do you serve your god? How do you know what his will is? Most other religions at least have some written or accepted doctrine. What is yours?


And as for religion being a tool to control lower class people, just look around at any thing that might upset the lower class, and I promise you will see "men of the cloth" swarm in to "help" deal with what ever the problem may be. 9-11, the riots in L.A. the school shootings, etc.... they are used to keep people in line instead of doing what they feel needs to be done at that point and time. So sending out a message of Love during a time of chaos and killing is a way of controlling? Well yes, I guess you could say that. What would you rather have happen?


They are used to give false hope to poor, sick, and gullible(sp?) people of the world. I guess that's your opinion. I know some poor and sick people that would disagree. But, so be it. That's how you feel.


The only religion where it seems most of the peopl are of upper middle class or higher, which I know isn't correct, seems to be the Jewish people. You haven't read up on Israel, have you?

[MoonDog]

You know, I really dont care for "religion" either. I am not a "religious" person. In fact "religious" people have a tendency to have issues and steer people away from God. With me it is all about me and my "relationship" with God. There are many religions in the world where you can learn about god/gods/deities. But there is only one way to have a true relationship with THE GOD and that is only through Christ.

[Ylw 98~~SNAKE~~]

Hmm im just now seeing this....interesting forum maybe i will get somewhat edumicated on religion....i probably need it more than anyone here

[Cartman]

Originally posted by 281R
Stated your opinion exactly... Just like anybody else would. But did anybody ask you what you thought about Christians? no. So you pushed your idea/belief in this thread. Thats all Im stating, nothing more:)
I am not pushing anybody to believe what I believe, I don't keep hounding on anybody to do what I do. so I am trying to see where I pushing my idea on anybody. I stated my opinion, I didn't ask nor force anybody to like it or accept it.

[Cartman]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
So then it's obvious that you don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god. Okay, it's all good. Now I can go to the next question. So what does your god tell you? It's obvious you give in to the idea that there is a higher entity up in the house ;) So how do you serve your god? How do you know what his will is? Most other religions at least have some written or accepted doctrine. What is yours?

So sending out a message of Love during a time of chaos and killing is a way of controlling? Well yes, I guess you could say that. What would you rather have happen?

I guess that's your opinion. I know some poor and sick people that would disagree. But, so be it. That's how you feel.

You haven't read up on Israel, have you?

I talk to god all the time, never get an answer, and don't expcet one either. For a time I didn't believe in god, that had more to do with what I went thru as a child. But I have "faith" that there has to be a higher being than humans.

I tend to follow the christian faith more closely than any other I suppose, I mean if i do go to church it is almost alway a baptist church, even enjoy going to my grandma church when I am there.

sending love and care is good and all, but at the same time it is telling people don't do what you feel is right let those in charge do that, even though they sat and let the fuel burn out before stepping in. It is used by giving false hope, though I do believe without hope we are nothing, but every church I have atteneded at some point in time tells us all that no matter what happens god will look after us. So when you get beat down, rob, etc.. don't worry god will take care of you. But if god is going to take care us all then why would we need police or armies? that's right he gave man freewill, but then he tells us that if you don't believe in me you will suffer, so you have freewill just as long as it serves me. So looky looky that is the control. Be careful what you do cause I will know and punish you.

The only law is god's law, oh and that of man because man's law is also god's law. Funny so does god intravene when we make new laws? what? No? how can man's law be god's law then, of the bible tells us so. Hmmm who makes laws could it be the rich, upper class, or does the middle and lower class people choose?

Now as for the poor and sick people that trusted in "god's word" and was told the benny hinn was going to heal their pains, then come to find out they aren't healed at all. Oh wait he is just a fake.

and as for the comment about jews, I stated I know it is wrong, but it seems like it. meaning that statement is not so much about the truth as it is about the way they are precieved in america. I know that every religion has it rich, poor, and undesirables, but that comment was said as the way it seems they are the only one that are made up of upper class.

and if any of this doesn't make sense, it is because I think faster than I type and I might have left out somethings but I will post them if I remember anything left out. :)

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Cartman
Now as for the poor and sick people that trusted in "god's word" and was told the benny hinn was going to heal their pains, then come to find out they aren't healed at all. Oh wait he is just a fake.


One of the biggest sins in America is unbelief within the church. There are sick and poor in the world because of unbelief. It has nothing to do with Benny Hinn. If they were told that he could heal them then they were led astray and it is no wonder they were not healed. Benny Hinn has never said that he could heal anyone. When someone claims that they have been healed he always tells them to go to their doctor to verify their healing. He says that it is the power of God that heals and nothing else. Jesus was able to raise the dead and heal the sick. He also said that we would be able to perform the same miracles and even greater ones. So to say Benny Hinn is a fake because someone believes he can heal them and they dont get healed is just being misimformed.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog
One of the biggest sins in America is unbelief within the church. There are sick and poor in the world because of unbelief. It has nothing to do with Benny Hinn. If they were told that he could heal them then they were led astray and it is no wonder they were not healed. Benny Hinn has never said that he could heal anyone. When someone claims that they have been healed he always tells them to go to their doctor to verify their healing. He says that it is the power of God that heals and nothing else. Jesus was able to raise the dead and heal the sick. He also said that we would be able to perform the same miracles and even greater ones. So to say Benny Hinn is a fake because someone believes he can heal them and they dont get healed is just being misimformed.

You believe Benny Hinn?!!!!!! :eek: LOL I think that dude is what gives religion a bad name.

Just my opinion. :)

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
You believe Benny Hinn?!!!!!! :eek: LOL I think that dude is what gives religion a bad name.

Just my opinion. :)

So you dont believe Mark 16:15-18? You cant just pick and choose what to believe.

Some people dont believe you should have music in church but in Psalm 150 it says "Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals." You have to believe the whole bible. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If it was good enough for the believers of the first century then it is good enough for us now.

And it is really guys like Robert Tilton and Jim Baker that give "religion" a bad name. The ones that rip people off for their own personal gain. Those are they guys that never last. Benny Hinn on the other hand is still around because, whether he is right or wrong, he has a heart after the Lord.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman
I talk to god all the time, never get an answer, and don't expcet one either. What are you expecting? The answers are in the Bible. You have a spiritual antenna that isn't turned on. If you take on the spirit of Christ you can understand God's answers to you.

For a time I didn't believe in god, that had more to do with what I went thru as a child. But I have "faith" that there has to be a higher being than humans. Then use that faith and find out what the "higher being" wants from you.

sending love and care is good and all, but at the same time it is telling people don't do what you feel is right let those in charge do that, even though they sat and let the fuel burn out before stepping in. Like we've said before, it is true that some professing christians use and abuse people but, there happen to be a ton of Christians on the battle lines, so to speak. They reach out to people in Christian un-friendly places (Afghanistan, Iraq) there are missionaries in China, Korea. There is more good being done by Christians than you give us credit for.


It is used by giving false hope, though I do believe without hope we are nothing, but every church I have atteneded at some point in time tells us all that no matter what happens god will look after us. So when you get beat down, rob, etc.. don't worry god will take care of you. But if god is going to take care us all then why would we need police or armies? It's not false hope to the believer. We live not for this world but, for heaven. (Romans 5:2) through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (Romans 5:5)and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.



that's right he gave man freewill, but then he tells us that if you don't believe in me you will suffer, so you have freewill just as long as it serves me. Yes, I have no qualms about saying that we are here to serve God. He is our creator. We serve Him. But I ask you, what is so bad about serving God? Is there something that He asks of you that is hard to bear? He asks us not to commit adultry, not to kill, He commands us to love thy neighbor, to forgive one another, to admonish one another, to refrain from sexual immorality.

So looky looky that is the control. Be careful what you do cause I will know and punish you. I thought you were talking about man controlling, not God. One thing you are missing is that God does know what we do but, once we take on Christ in baptism we are forgiven of our transgressions. We should then on, strive to live a Godly life and in doing so, we have escaped hell. God isn't sitting there waiting to spank us! There is freedom in Christ, not oppression.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog
So you dont believe Mark 16:15-18? You cant just pick and choose what to believe.

Some people dont believe you should have music in church but in Psalm 150 it says "Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals." You have to believe the whole bible. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If it was good enough for the believers of the first century then it is good enough for us now.

And it is really guys like Robert Tilton and Jim Baker that give "religion" a bad name. The ones that rip people off for their own personal gain. Those are they guys that never last. Benny Hinn on the other hand is still around because, whether he is right or wrong, he has a heart after the Lord.

Bro, I'm talking abot him blowing on people and proclaiming to heal them. LOL not about proclaiming the gospel. I said it was my opinion. I can't believe you're going off on me like this. :(

[01WhiteCobra]

Originally posted by MoonDog
One of the biggest sins in America is unbelief within the church. There are sick and poor in the world because of unbelief. It has nothing to do with Benny Hinn. If they were told that he could heal them then they were led astray and it is no wonder they were not healed. Benny Hinn has never said that he could heal anyone. When someone claims that they have been healed he always tells them to go to their doctor to verify their healing. He says that it is the power of God that heals and nothing else. Jesus was able to raise the dead and heal the sick. He also said that we would be able to perform the same miracles and even greater ones. So to say Benny Hinn is a fake because someone believes he can heal them and they dont get healed is just being misimformed.

So you believe it when Benny Hinn says the Lord was on stage and when Benny moved his arm, the Lord moved his, when Benny says he moved his leg, the Lord moved his, and that they eventually merged into one person (Benny of course)?

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Bro, I'm talking abot him blowing on people and proclaiming to heal them. LOL not about proclaiming the gospel. I said it was my opinion. I can't believe you're going off on me like this. :(

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
So you believe it when Benny Hinn says the Lord was on stage and when Benny moved his arm, the Lord moved his, when Benny says he moved his leg, the Lord moved his, and that they eventually merged into one person (Benny of course)?
No JC, I am not going off on you. You laughed at the fact that I was defending Benny Hinn. So I was just telling you where I stand. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, maybe I took your statement the wrong way also.

To both you and Eric, I dont agree with everything that he does and says. He used to say things 10 years ago that he doesn't say or believe now, somethings that would blow your mind if I told you. I dont agree with the blowing, I dont agree with the waving of his appendages. But I have never once heard him say that he can or ever has healed anyone. He always says that it was God that did the healing. I will defend what anyone does as long as it lines up with the bible.

But on the other hand, Jesus once breathed on the disciples:
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
So I can understand where Benny gets this. But the Holy Spirit can only come from God, it cant come from just anyone blowing on you, IMO.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog
No JC, I am not going off on you. You laughed at the fact that I was defending Benny Hinn. So I was just telling you where I stand. Sorry if you took it the wrong way, maybe I took your statement the wrong way also.

To both you and Eric, I dont agree with everything that he does and says. He used to say things 10 years ago that he doesn't say or believe now, somethings that would blow your mind if I told you. I dont agree with the blowing, I dont agree with the waving of his appendages. But I have never once heard him say that he can or ever has healed anyone. He always says that it was God that did the healing. I will defend what anyone does as long as it lines up with the bible.

But on the other hand, Jesus once breathed on the disciples:
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
So I can understand where Benny gets this. But the Holy Spirit can only come from God, it cant come from just anyone blowing on you, IMO.

I just didn't think that you would believe in him and what he claims to do. I sent you a PM on it. Let me know what you think.

[Cartman]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
You believe Benny Hinn?!!!!!! :eek: LOL I think that dude is what gives religion a bad name.

Just my opinion. :) I only used him becuase I couldn't think of the other guys that used God's name for personal gain, and to rape the weak and poor.

[Cartman]

Originally posted by Monsoon X

Like we've said before, it is true that some professing christians use and abuse people but, there happen to be a ton of Christians on the battle lines, so to speak. They reach out to people in Christian un-friendly places (Afghanistan, Iraq) there are missionaries in China, Korea. There is more good being done by Christians than you give us credit for.


Yes, I have no qualms about saying that we are here to serve God. He is our creator. We serve Him. But I ask you, what is so bad about serving God? Is there something that He asks of you that is hard to bear? He asks us not to commit adultry, not to kill, He commands us to love thy neighbor, to forgive one another, to admonish one another, to refrain from sexual immorality.
I thought you were talking about man controlling, not God. One thing you are missing is that God does know what we do but, once we take on Christ in baptism we are forgiven of our transgressions. We should then on, strive to live a Godly life and in doing so, we have escaped hell. God isn't sitting there waiting to spank us! There is freedom in Christ, not oppression.

the 1st part is one of the problems i have with religion. why do we think it is our job to go tell a billion china men that they are wrong in belieiving what they do, or that all the hindu, buddist, etc... are all going to hell because they don't follow the bible. if god is all knowing and all powerful then he would have made himself known to those people around the same time he showed up in europe. but since his didn't that means that for 1800 yrs or so all those people are in hell as we speak for something they didn't know. how is that a just god.

but almost all religions i know of teach the exact same things don't kill, steal, commit adultry, they just don't use it as GOD'S word, or at least not that i know.

And speaking of god's laws lets think abou this for a second. Did god not break a few of his 10 laws? Correct if I am worng but dosn't it say do not covent(something like that) thy neighbor, but god did so with mary who was married to joesph. Thou shalt not commit adultry but mary did.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman
the 1st part is one of the problems i have with religion. why do we think it is our job to go tell a billion china men that they are wrong in belieiving what they do, or that all the hindu, buddist, etc... are all going to hell because they don't follow the bible. Because we want to save them from eternal damnation. We believe a certain truth, and we are commanded to go into the world and spread the message. Not with malice or ill intent but, with love and because we love. (some overzealous christians miss the last point)


he would have made himself known to those people around the same time he showed up in europe. Huh?


but since his didn't that means that for 1800 yrs or so all those people are in hell as we speak for something they didn't know. how is that a just god. 1.) No one has been judged yet, no one is in Hell. 2.) I went through this with Al P in 02, I can send you a PM with the details (it's alot to type). Basically we know from scripture (Romans 2 14-16) that God will not hold the Gentiles accountable for what they HAVEN'T heard. Only for what they HAVE heard and seen and chose not to believe.


And speaking of god's laws lets think abou this for a second. Did god not break a few of his 10 laws? Correct if I am worng but dosn't it say do not covent(something like that) thy neighbor, but god did so with mary who was married to joesph. Thou shalt not commit adultry but mary did. 1.) Mary and Josehp weren't married. They were espoused to each other when she was made pregnant. But that bears no bearing on the fact that God didn't have sex with Mary, like it seems that you are alluding to. Jesus was created in her womb not with a combining of some "holy sperm" and her egg, but by the Holy Spirit.

[Cartman]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Because we want to save them from eternal damnation. We believe a certain truth, and we are commanded to go into the world and spread the message. Not with malice or ill intent but, with love and because we love. (some overzealous christians miss the last point)

Huh?

1.) No one has been judged yet, no one is in Hell. 2.) I went through this with Al P in 02, I can send you a PM with the details (it's alot to type). Basically we know from scripture (Romans 2 14-16) that God will not hold the Gentiles accountable for what they HAVEN'T heard. Only for what they HAVE heard and seen and chose not to believe.

1.) Mary and Josehp weren't married. They were espoused to each other when she was made pregnant. But that bears no bearing on the fact that God didn't have sex with Mary, like it seems that you are alluding to. Jesus was created in her womb not with a combining of some "holy sperm" and her egg, but by the Holy Spirit.

that is supposed to read eruope and middle east, I just let that out about jesus and where he had been. and I was always told that mary and joseph were married.

and as for so lets just skip back to the ones god doesn't hold accountable, if he doesn't hold you accountable then why would christian want to go and put people's soul in jeopardy? if they don't know then they get a free pass to heaven, right? so why mess it up for so many? most people are storng about what they believe and it is close to impossible to change most of the worlds thinking, so why put their souls at risk?

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Cartman
that is supposed to read eruope and middle east, I just let that out about jesus and where he had been. and I was always told that mary and joseph were married.

and as for so lets just skip back to the ones god doesn't hold accountable, if he doesn't hold you accountable then why would christian want to go and put people's soul in jeopardy? if they don't know then they get a free pass to heaven, right? so why mess it up for so many? most people are storng about what they believe and it is close to impossible to change most of the worlds thinking, so why put their souls at risk?

I believe that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ being the Son of God, His death, Burial, and Resurrection, and ultimately His atonement for mankind's sin will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Hell is simply a holding place for the lost souls who have died to this point and it will be emptied intot the Lake of Fire (eternal holding place for all lost and Satan) at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Your comments stating that Christians are putting lost souls at risk is absolutely incorrect. That denies personal responsibility. We all have a choice and will be judged according to the choice we make to accept Christ or not.

Also, no one has any free pass to heaven - Jesus says, "No man comes the Father but by me!"

Lee

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman
that is supposed to read eruope and middle east, I just let that out about jesus and where he had been. Unless I missed something, the Bible makes no mention of Jesus going to Europe.

and I was always told that mary and joseph were married. They did get married. But when she became pregnant they were not. Joseph was gonna diss her when he learned of her condition but, the Angel of the Lord told him what was up and he stayed with her and went ahead and married her.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
I believe that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ being the Son of God, His death, Burial, and Resurrection, and ultimately His atonement for mankind's sin will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Hell is simply a holding place for the lost souls who have died to this point and it will be emptied intot the Lake of Fire (eternal holding place for all lost and Satan) at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Your comments stating that Christians are putting lost souls at risk is absolutely incorrect. That denies personal responsibility. We all have a choice and will be judged according to the choice we make to accept Christ or not.

Also, no one has any free pass to heaven - Jesus says, "No man comes the Father but by me!"

Lee Im with you bro.
Romans 1:18-20
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

[Cartman]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
I believe that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ being the Son of God, His death, Burial, and Resurrection, and ultimately His atonement for mankind's sin will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Hell is simply a holding place for the lost souls who have died to this point and it will be emptied intot the Lake of Fire (eternal holding place for all lost and Satan) at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Your comments stating that Christians are putting lost souls at risk is absolutely incorrect. That denies personal responsibility. We all have a choice and will be judged according to the choice we make to accept Christ or not.

Also, no one has any free pass to heaven - Jesus says, "No man comes the Father but by me!"

Lee

this was written by JC

1.) No one has been judged yet, no one is in Hell. 2.) I went through this with Al P in 02, I can send you a PM with the details (it's alot to type). Basically we know from scripture (Romans 2 14-16) that God will not hold the Gentiles accountable for what they HAVEN'T heard. Only for what they HAVE heard and seen and chose not to believe.


so which is correct then? this is where I lose all faith in religion, not in god just religion

[Monsoon X]

Interesting conversation.

Lee, 281R

I take it that you guys don't agree with me?

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Joseph was gonna diss her when he learned of her condition but, the Angel of the Lord told him what was up and he stayed with her and went ahead and married her.

I can see Joseph now:
http://www.dennisdaigle.com/hand.jpg

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman
this was written by JC

1.) No one has been judged yet, no one is in Hell. 2.) I went through this with Al P in 02, I can send you a PM with the details (it's alot to type). Basically we know from scripture (Romans 2 14-16) that God will not hold the Gentiles accountable for what they HAVEN'T heard. Only for what they HAVE heard and seen and chose not to believe.


so which is correct then? this is where I lose all faith in religion, not in god just religion

I see no difference in Hell and the Lake of Fire. It is the same thing. I don't know if me and the other guys are caught up in semantics but, I welcome their input.

And as far as Christ being the way like 281R said, yes he is. But the fact that the Gentiles who didn't have the law offered to them previoulsy needs to be reconciled with the fact that God is just. And I believe that Romans 2 says that they will not be judged by something that they did not have. *see also Luke 12: 47-48

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Hell is simply a holding place for the lost souls who have died to this point and it will be emptied intot the Lake of Fire (eternal holding place for all lost and Satan) at the Great White Throne Judgement.


Lee

Are you thinking about Hades?

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Are you thinking about Hades?
Hades, hell, and the grave are all the same. The Lake of Fire is just that, a lake of fire. Check the original greek they are different words that are used.

Free pass to heaven? Not so sure about that. But I am not sure if they have a free pass to hell either. Basicly, I have no idea. :(

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Cartman

and as for so lets just skip back to the ones god doesn't hold accountable, if he doesn't hold you accountable then why would christian want to go and put people's soul in jeopardy? if they don't know then they get a free pass to heaven, right? so why mess it up for so many? most people are storng about what they believe and it is close to impossible to change most of the worlds thinking, so why put their souls at risk?

We go to them because they are lost. Just because they don't know of the word doesn't give them a "free pass". They aren't promised heaven. I don't think they're promised hell either.

I'm just saying that they aren't judged by the OT law or the Law of Liberty.

Luke 12: 47-48

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog
Hades, hell, and the grave are all the same. The Lake of Fire is just that, a lake of fire. Check the original greek they are different words that are used.




consider this.

Hades is a greek word. Equivalent to Sheol (Hebrew) And it is used in many instances in the greek NT

Check out the greek words used in Revelation 20 v. 13 is Hades delivered up the dead. v. 15 is the dead from Hades being cast into the "lake of fire" or the greek word Gehenna. (Two different places) close but not the same (Like Dallas and Ft. worth) :D

Your Thoughts?

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Interesting conversation.

Lee, 281R

I take it that you guys don't agree with me? I believe Gods judgement is outside of our time. We have a beginning and end on this earth and He dose not. I believe all that trusted Him before Christ are still recognciled. But the agnostic I do believe God will cast judgement upon them along with the athiest in the end. There is no escaping God's judgement unless through the blood of Jesus Christ. I think Christ was God, and those who put their faith in God before the sacrifice also put their trust in Christ b/c Christ is God in man's flesh.

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Cartman

so which is correct then? this is where I lose all faith in religion, not in god just religion

Cartman,

There are many things in the Bible which are open for friendly debate, but that wouldn't cause me throw away the Word of God as Truth!

If everyone agreed - then all would think like me because I am always right - j/k :) - No but all would think the same which is unheard of about anything...

Hey, there are some verses of scripture I read 70 times and get something new or different from them each time.

BTW - I lost faith in religion when I got saved :) It is not about denominations or religion, but about serving Chirst!

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Monsoon X

And as far as Christ being the way like 281R said, yes he is. But the fact that the Gentiles who didn't have the law offered to them previoulsy needs to be reconciled with the fact that God is just. And I believe that Romans 2 says that they will not be judged by something that they did not have. *see also Luke 12: 47-48

Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

The scripture referenced in Luke only speaks of different "levels" or reward and punishment which I thoroughly agree with :)

Lee

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
consider this.

Hades is a greek word. Equivalent to Sheol (Hebrew) And it is used in many instances in the greek NT

Check out the greek words used in Revelation 20 v. 13 is Hades delivered up the dead. v. 15 is the dead from Hades being cast into the "lake of fire" or the greek word Gehenna. (Two different places) close but not the same (Like Dallas and Ft. worth) :D

Your Thoughts?

You are correct in stating that there are two words translated into hell, hades and gehenna. Hades literally means hell or grave. Gehenna was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned and it too is usually translated hell.

In Rev 20:15 that you mention it does not use the word gehenna, it uses the two greek words limne which means lake or pond and pur which means fiery or fire.

In Rev. 20:14 it says that death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. If hell and the lake of fire are the samething then how can hell be cast into it.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

The scripture referenced in Luke only speaks of different "levels" or reward and punishment which I thoroughly agree with :)

Lee

What did Romans 2:8 have to do with what you and I were talking about? :confused:

In reference to Luke. Yes there will be different levels but, look at the text where it speaks of the "servant that knew NOT his masters will but, did things deserving of stripes, he will recieve few stripes".

The gentiles who had not the law aren't promised heaven but, we don't know if they are promised eternal damnation either.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog
You are correct in stating that there are two words translated into hell, hades and gehenna. Hades literally means hell or grave. Gehenna was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned and it too is usually translated hell.

In Rev 20:15 that you mention it does not use the word gehenna, it uses the two greek words limne which means lake or pond and pur which means fiery or fire.

In Rev. 20:14 it says that death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. If hell and the lake of fire are the samething then how can hell be cast into it.

I said that 13 uses hades or Sheol (literally means"the grave") and 15 uses lake of fire or gehenna(translated as hell) There are two sides to Sheol. One is hades, the other is Abraham's bosom. Where the rich man looked up and saw Lazarus.

Rev. 20: 13-15- shows death and the grave (hades) giving up it's occupants and then they are cast into the lake of fire, gehenna, hell, place where the filthy are cast out and burned.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by 281R
I believe Gods judgement is outside of our time. We have a beginning and end on this earth and He dose not. I believe all that trusted Him before Christ are still recognciled. But the agnostic I do believe God will cast judgement upon them along with the athiest in the end. There is no escaping God's judgement unless through the blood of Jesus Christ. I think Christ was God, and those who put their faith in God before the sacrifice also put their trust in Christ b/c Christ is God in man's flesh.

I agree with everything you just said. There is no escaping God's judgement. You mentioned that the only way to escape God's judgement is through Jesus Christ. The dead in Christ will still be judged but, the judgement will be in our favor because we heard and believed and were reconiled to God through Christ Jesus. God's judgement won't be bad for us. It will be for those who chose not to accept Jesus.

But for those who didn't have an opportunity to believe in Jesus or who were not offered the OT law, they will be a law unto themselves. The "other" people in the OT were not offered the 10 commandments nor the Levitical laws. That is why Paul addresses this issue in Romans 2: 14-16

When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.


They will be judged but, we can't say that they will all be damned to hell, nor sent straight to Heaven.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
I said that 13 uses hades or Sheol (literally means"the grave") and 15 uses lake of fire or gehenna(translated as hell) There are two sides to Sheol. One is hades, the other is Abraham's bosom. Where the rich man looked up and saw Lazarus.

Rev. 20: 13-15- shows death and the grave (hades) giving up it's occupants and then they are cast into the lake of fire, gehenna, hell, place where the filthy are cast out and burned.

I am following you. I believe what you are saying here is that hades is not properly translated as hell but rather grave. Where gehenna is properly translated as hell or hell fire. Correct?

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by MoonDog
I am following you. I believe what you are saying here is that hades is not properly translated as hell but rather grave. Where gehenna is properly translated as hell or hell fire. Correct?

Yes. The OT's hades (Hebrew: Sheol) has the same signifigance as the NT hades (Greek: grave) The literal hell in the NT is mentioned. We got two different languages here. They are not the literal hell or final resting place. it's where we go when we die. BUT you'll know where you're headed!

Paradise(Abraham's Bosom/Hades



Heaven/Hell

Your thoughts?

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
What did Romans 2:8 have to do with what you and I were talking about? :confused:

In reference to Luke. Yes there will be different levels but, look at the text where it speaks of the "servant that knew NOT his masters will but, did things deserving of stripes, he will recieve few stripes".

The gentiles who had not the law aren't promised heaven but, we don't know if they are promised eternal damnation either.

Romans 2:8 was a part of the chapter you referenced and it clearly shows both ends of the spectrum. The self-seeking those living in the darkness of a self-serving life and then those that clearly reject the truth. Reading Romans CH. 1-3 it is clear that all will be judged. All of the lost will go to hell, but some will receive lesser punishment according to what they did not know...few stripes.

All humanity will know in part the plan of redemption, and all have a choice to accept or reject it.

Lee

[MoonDog]

OK, if this is true why is Hades translated grave only once in the NT, 1Co 15:55. Is it because the translators didn't want to say O Hell? :p

And I guess you are also saying that when we die we are all going to Hell. ;)

I am agreeing with what your saying about Sheol and Hades being the samething, Abrahams Bosom being Paradise. I just not sure on Hell and the Lake of Fire being the same.

Next question, Satan is where? I am looking but I cant find it. :mad:

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Romans 2:8 was a part of the chapter you referenced and it clearly shows both ends of the spectrum. The self-seeking those living in the darkness of a self-serving life and then those that clearly reject the truth. Reading Romans CH. 1-3 it is clear that all will be judged. All of the lost will go to hell, but some will receive lesser punishment according to what they did not know...few stripes.

All humanity will know in part the plan of redemption, and all have a choice to accept or reject it.

Lee
Lee- I understand all of what you are saying. I agree with Romans 2:8 but, keep reading. I agree with what Luke is saying also. Some will recieve few stripes. (there are degrees of punishment)

But do you see what I'm saying about Romans 2:14-16? The people who weren't offered any law in the OT from God, will not just be unfairly sent to hell, nor or they granted a front row seat in Heaven. The law was not given to the Gentiles until Jesus came. They will be judged apart from the law (Romans 2:12)

Does this make sense?

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Monsoon X


They will be judged but, we can't say that they will all be damned to hell, nor sent straight to Heaven. Right,:D Because who are we to judge

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by 281R
Right,:D Because who are we to judge


Will an unrepentant gay person, or killer, or liar, or adulterer who has heard but still hasn't accepted christ, go to hell?

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Will an unrepentant gay person, or killer, or liar, or adulterer who has heard but still hasn't accepted christ, go to hell? Im not a 100%, but would assert yes.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by 281R
Im not a 100%, but would assert yes.


You're not sure? Is the bible unclear on it?

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
You're not sure? Is the bible unclear on it? Matthew 7
14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Whats the opposite of life? death..

[Denny]

Ya, in order to truely be forgiven and enter the Kingdom of God, you MUST acknowledge your a sinner, be truely sorry for them, ask for forgiveness, love God, and believe that Jesus Christ is your one and only Savior.

I don't know how to make it any more clear here.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
You're not sure? Is the bible unclear on it? I take that back, I was to quick to read your question and responded wrong, yes according to God's word they would be damned.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by 281R
I take that back, I was to quick to read your question and responded wrong, yes according to God's word they would be damned.


Who are we to judge? ;)

[Denny]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Who are we to judge? ;)

That's not judging, that's fact... but only God is to say who falls into that category and frankly, it's none of our business who is or isn't going to Heaven. That's why it's called a personal relationship with God.

Who isn't 100% sure whether or not they're going to Heaven? To me, it's not even a question.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Who are we to judge? ;) Im not judging them, I am asserting the answer by God's word. God clearly lays out what it takes to get to heaven, so by logic and passages in the Bible we can clearly know what it takes not to go to heaven. I see the oposite of God is hell.:)

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by 281R
Matthew 7
14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Whats the opposite of life? death..

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Lee- I understand all of what you are saying. I agree with Romans 2:8 but, keep reading. I agree with what Luke is saying also. Some will recieve few stripes. (there are degrees of punishment)

But do you see what I'm saying about Romans 2:14-16? The people who weren't offered any law in the OT from God, will not just be unfairly sent to hell, nor or they granted a front row seat in Heaven. The law was not given to the Gentiles until Jesus came. They will be judged apart from the law (Romans 2:12)

Does this make sense?

Romans 2:11-16 For God does not show favoritism. 12God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. 13For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. 14Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. 15They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. 16The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message.

I see it totally agreeing with my interpretation of the scriptures...

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Will an unrepentant gay person, or killer, or liar, or adulterer who has heard but still hasn't accepted christ, go to hell?

They will go to hell, if they heard the gospel preached or not.

[Denny]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
They will go to hell, if they heard the gospel preached or not.

And what about someone who never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel? What about a baby who dies not knowing?

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Denny
And what about someone who never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel? What about a baby who dies not knowing?

Denny,

While I most often feel like these types of questions come from people looking for any reason to reject God, I do know that there are some sincerely looking for the truth.

Here is the response to the ultimate question of, "Isn't it unfair for God to send people to hell who have never heard of him?"

While the Bible confirms that Jesus Christ is the only Saviur, the Word of God is also quite clear about God being perfectly just, and that God loves us with an everlasting love. God continues to demonstrate the above characteristics by making Himself known through the handiwork of His creation (Rom 1:19-20), but also inscribes His knowledge onto the tablets of our heart, or conscience (Romans 2:14-15). Because no one has been kept in the dark about God, we are all accountable to Him (luke 12:47-48).

Since God provided only His son Jesus as a way to eternity in heaven, we must conclude that those never hearing about Christ are indeed lost. They are lost however as a result of their actions and depravity, not because of God (remember He is perfectly just!). People do not end up in hell because of what they haven't heard, but because of their failure to act in a responsible manner about what God has revealed to them -whether through creation (Romans 1), through their conscience (Romans 2), or through the light of Christ (Romans 3).

If you take this arguement to its logical conclusion, then Jesus did not come to "seek and save that which is lost", but rather to seek and to lose that which was saved. He would then not be the Savior of the world, but the destroyer of it, which of course is not the case!

Lee

[four5.0snomore]

Denny #2,

About the baby question, I am unsure...

That answer as well as the whole "age of accountability" issue is not specifically addressed in the Bible. I have leaned both ways and am very open to leaning the "right" way :)

That is one of the things we will know only once we get to heaven!

[Denny]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
People do not end up in hell because of what they haven't heard, but because of their failure to act in a responsible manner about what God has revealed to them -whether through creation (Romans 1), through their conscience (Romans 2), or through the light of Christ (Romans 3).

I'm saying that one will go to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as his Savior. Are you saying that EVERYONE has been introduced to the Gospel?

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Denny
I'm saying that one will go to hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as his Savior. Are you saying that EVERYONE has been introduced to the Gospel?

Yes, in one way or another God has shed light on the fact they are in need of a savior...

"They are lost however as a result of their actions and depravity, not because of God (remember He is perfectly just!). People do not end up in hell because of what they haven't heard, but because of their failure to act in a responsible manner about what God has revealed to them -whether through creation (Romans 1), through their conscience (Romans 2), or through the light of Christ (Romans 3)."

[Cartman]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Romans 2:11-16 For God does not show favoritism. 12God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. 13For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. 14Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. 15They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. 16The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message.

I see it totally agreeing with my interpretation of the scriptures...

hmm this is interesting, it seems I may have to go and read the bible again, I do not remember reading some of these things, but then again I didn't understand the bible when I read it, mainly becuase of the script.

but let me ask this question then, if god is all knowing, powerful, vengeceful, and forgiving. then would it be safe to assume that if you live a "moral" life to the best of your ablities, and believe in god but not Jesus, that you should suffer in hell. Or if you don't believe in something that has no proof, and god being god knows this, should you be punished for not knowing? I can't deny that Jesus was here when the book says he was, nor that he died on a cross, it is in written history from different sources, and I am sure if the great library hadn't burned to the ground we might have more knowlege of what is real and what is good story telling.

but this is another problem I have with any religion, if you believe in god but not jesus you will suffer in hell, no matter the life you lived, but if you killed and then repented you will be by god's side in heaven, if you accept jesus. Do you all see where that makes me not follow religion.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by 281R
Im not judging them, I am asserting the answer by God's word. God clearly lays out what it takes to get to heaven, so by logic and passages in the Bible we can clearly know what it takes not to go to heaven. I see the oposite of God is hell.:)


I guess I just use a stronger word to say the same thing. :)

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Denny,

While the Bible confirms that Jesus Christ is the only Saviur, the Word of God is also quite clear about God being perfectly just, and that God loves us with an everlasting love. God continues to demonstrate the above characteristics by making Himself known through the handiwork of His creation (Rom 1:19-20), but also inscribes His knowledge onto the tablets of our heart, or conscience (Romans 2:14-15). Because no one has been kept in the dark about God, we are all accountable to Him (luke 12:47-48).

Since God provided only His son Jesus as a way to eternity in heaven, we must conclude that those never hearing about Christ are indeed lost. They are lost however as a result of their actions and depravity, not because of God (remember He is perfectly just!). People do not end up in hell because of what they haven't heard, but because of their failure to act in a responsible manner about what God has revealed to them -whether through creation (Romans 1), through their conscience (Romans 2), or through the light of Christ (Romans 3).

If you take this arguement to its logical conclusion, then Jesus did not come to "seek and save that which is lost", but rather to seek and to lose that which was saved. He would then not be the Savior of the world, but the destroyer of it, which of course is not the case!

Lee


Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't we say the same thing?

Your points
* God is fair/just
* Jesus saves
*Some people have never heard of Jesus
*God has revealed himself to them through creation, consicience, or by the gospel of Christ
*They aren't damned by what they haven't heard only by what they have rejected

My points
*God is fair/just
*Jesus saves
*Some people didn't hear about Jesus nor were they offered the OT or a covenant with God
*God's law is written on the hearts of those who have not heard.
*They aren't damned by what they haven't heard, only by what they have heard and rejected.

Did we not say the same thing? Some people have not heard the Gospel of Christ, God still has revealed himselves to them (by creation or conscience, which I feel is writing his law on their hearts) they aren't damned to hell because of what they haven't heard. Only by what they rejected.

[Denny]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Some people have not heard the Gospel of Christ, God still has revealed himselves to them (by creation or conscience, which I feel is writing his law on their hearts) they aren't damned to hell because of what they haven't heard. Only by what they rejected.

This was the answer to the question I was asking yesterday. Knowing that God exsists and being introduced to the Gospel are two totally different things.

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by Denny
This was the answer to the question I was asking yesterday. Knowing that God exsists and being introduced to the Gospel are two totally different things.


Yes, I know that's why I feel that the Bible gives us an explanation about what happens to those who did not get a chance to hear the Gospel of Christ.

[MoonDog]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't we say the same thing?

Your points
* God is fair/just
* Jesus saves
*Some people have never heard of Jesus
*God has revealed himself to them through creation, consicience, or by the gospel of Christ
*They aren't damned by what they haven't heard only by what they have rejected

My points
*God is fair/just
*Jesus saves
*Some people didn't hear about Jesus nor were they offered the OT or a covenant with God
*God's law is written on the hearts of those who have not heard.
*They aren't damned by what they haven't heard, only by what they have heard and rejected.

Did we not say the same thing? Some people have not heard the Gospel of Christ, God still has revealed himselves to them (by creation or conscience, which I feel is writing his law on their hearts) they aren't damned to hell because of what they haven't heard. Only by what they rejected.
I can agree to all of the above.

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Cartman
hmm this is interesting, it seems I may have to go and read the bible again, I do not remember reading some of these things, but then again I didn't understand the bible when I read it, mainly becuase of the script.

but let me ask this question then, if god is all knowing, powerful, vengeceful, and forgiving. then would it be safe to assume that if you live a "moral" life to the best of your ablities, and believe in god but not Jesus, that you should suffer in hell. Or if you don't believe in something that has no proof, and god being god knows this, should you be punished for not knowing? I can't deny that Jesus was here when the book says he was, nor that he died on a cross, it is in written history from different sources, and I am sure if the great library hadn't burned to the ground we might have more knowlege of what is real and what is good story telling.

but this is another problem I have with any religion, if you believe in god but not jesus you will suffer in hell, no matter the life you lived, but if you killed and then repented you will be by god's side in heaven, if you accept jesus. Do you all see where that makes me not follow religion.

Cartman -

I would recommend the New International Version or the New Living Translation, but most importantly one must truly be "saved" in order to have any understanding in the first place.

Now, on to the second question at hand...

I do not see how this makes you not follow the Christian religion and once again I say forget about religion and follow Jesus Christ! To disagree with the FACT that Jesus is the only way is disagreeing with the entire plan of redemption set in place by God Himself before the foundation of the world. I will pray the Holy Spirit will point you to Jesus and give you faith to believe and repent.

Lee

[four5.0snomore]

Originally posted by Monsoon X
Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't we say the same thing?

Your points
* God is fair/just
* Jesus saves
*Some people have never heard of Jesus
*God has revealed himself to them through creation, consicience, or by the gospel of Christ
*They aren't damned by what they haven't heard only by what they have rejected

My points
*God is fair/just
*Jesus saves
*Some people didn't hear about Jesus nor were they offered the OT or a covenant with God
*God's law is written on the hearts of those who have not heard.
*They aren't damned by what they haven't heard, only by what they have heard and rejected.

Did we not say the same thing? Some people have not heard the Gospel of Christ, God still has revealed himselves to them (by creation or conscience, which I feel is writing his law on their hearts) they aren't damned to hell because of what they haven't heard. Only by what they rejected.

Pretty much! :)

The only point I would clarify is that those that have never and will never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, and reject what creation portrays and their conscience relays will still be eternally punished in hell (to a lesser extent though).

Lee

[Monsoon X]

Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Pretty much! :)

The only point I would clarify is that those that have never and will never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, and reject what creation portrays and their conscience relays will still be eternally punished in hell (to a lesser extent though).

Lee



I can live with that. :)

You see Cartman, the following example you have seen from Lee and myself should show you that different doctrines or interpretations can agree. All you need is the Spirit of Christ and an honest desire to study and know the will of God.

The word of God remains constant. The lines blur only when the parties involved start adding their own "traditions" and try to make the traditions, a law.

Great conversation Lee! :)
God bless.


<--------happy

[four5.0snomore]

Anytime JC - we need to get some more "good ones" going!