Adkins Diet: What to Eat? [Archive]

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 12:39 PM

While I can't tell you everything you CAN eat, I can tell you what you CANT eat.

Look on the label. If it has carbs, its pretty much out for the first 2 weeks, called the Induction Stage.

During the induction stage, you want to stick to 20 grams of carbs or less daily. After 14 days, if you are happy with the weight loss you got from the Induction stage, you can decide to to up your carb intake by 10 grams for a week, or stay in induction until you reach your goal weight.

So lets say you hit your goal during the first 2 weeks. Now you can take in 30 grams / day for this week. Next week, go for 40.

The idea is to carefully up your carb intake until you find the point of which more carbs = weight gain. I can personally eat a ton of carbs in a week and maintain wieght within 2 pounds. But I have a HARD time losing weight unless Im on the Atkins diet. I use Atkins to get to my goal weight, then go back to a regular type diet, usually ISOcaloric and watch my carb intake if I see myself gaining. Plus some cardio and resistance training.

Here is what I generally eat while on atkins:
Diet Code Red, Diet Big Red, Diet Vanilla Coke, Diet Big Red.
Coffee with no creamer and some Sweet-n-Low
Water
Cottage cheese - 4% fat (I like mine with some Splenda and cinnamon, tastes like a sweet treat, really good for when you've got a craving for ice cream or something. I should try freezing a blend and see how it tastes).
Pork Chops, Chicken, Turkey, Various cuts of STeak,
Bacon and eggs, omolets
A few peices of stir-fried asparagus tips
An ounce of Cashews (8 grams of carbs, but good source of fat)

If Im going to eat something with a couple or few carbs in it, I also take Alpha Lipoic Acid with the food. Research the effect it has, but basically helps metabolize the carbs into your blood stream more effectly and can allow you to take in more carbs than you are sposed to take. But I still stick to 20 grams of carbs / day. I just pick and choose where I take them in at.

Dont eat those damn protein/health bars. They are full of carbs. 1 of those would have more carbs than you need to take in / day. The labels are usually misleading.

Also, my protein mix, Optimum Whey, has 2 grams of carbs / scoop, so a shake for me = 4 grams of carbs, 40 grams of protein. Plus, I throw in a serving of Trans organic oil for clean fat.

Alot of peeps dont know that you can't just take in high protein, low carbs. You have to take in an almost equal amount of fat for Ketosis to actually be effective. Otherwise, you create an anti-ketosis type diet and not get as good results.

I eat like a half-pound of bacon in the morn with 4 or 5 eggs. PLus a shake at nite, and some cashews during the day.

Cooter

06-22-2003, 12:58 PM

I fully realize and understand how Atkins works, but how much of the initial weight loss do you attribute to water weight?

Forrest

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Mr Evil
Dont eat those damn protein/health bars. They are full of carbs. 1 of those would have more carbs than you need to take in / day. The labels are usually misleading.

I don't like the Atkins Diet personally, but if it works, use it. Obviously, alot of people have had success on it!

Side note on the protein bars. EAS makes a Carb Control bar, 24 grams of protein, 3 grams of carbs, 5 grams of fat.

There are actually quite a few protein bars out there that a specifically low carb.

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Forrest
I fully realize and understand how Atkins works, but how much of the initial weight loss do you attribute to water weight?

Forrest

I dont think much at all. I drink plenty of water, at least 96 oz a day, min.

I can do it for a week, lose 7 pounds, and keep it off, maintaining the goal weight, I would'nt attribute hardly any to water weight. Your body is burning fat stores for energy, on top of your intake. I maintain somewhat of a caloric deficit even on Atkins.

Caloric deficit + Atkins + cardio/resistance training = lots of fat stores getting burned off.

I was thinking about this earlier today while doing an hour of cardio.

I did 1 hour of cardio on a precor. I burned right at 900 calories for that hour.

1 gram of fat = 9 calories of energy

If the conversion was extremly efficient, and I burned 900 calories, 900 / 9 = 100 grams of fat.
100 grams = .1 Kilogram
.1 kilogram = .22 pounds or 3.52 oz.

So, by that thought, doing cardio in the morn, on an empty stomach, staying in FAT LOSS zone, SHOULD cause you to eat up .22 pounds of fat to cover by doing 900 calories worth of cardio.

Any thoughts? Im not sure how efficient the converting process is, but if it is less efficient, it would simply require MORE fat to be burned to cover the converting to energy process.

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
I don't like the Atkins Diet personally, but if it works, use it. Obviously, alot of people have had success on it!

Side note on the protein bars. EAS makes a Carb Control bar, 24 grams of protein, 3 grams of carbs, 5 grams of fat.

There are actually quite a few protein bars out there that a specifically low carb.

I hate the Atkins diet, but it works. Believe me, I could eat a whole bag of sugar right now. Im craving it like a crack head in rehab.

I've had to hold myself back and talk myself down from a twinkie or 2 many a nite this past weekend.

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Mr Evil
II can do it for a week, lose 7 pounds, and keep it off, maintaining the goal weight, I would'nt attribute hardly any to water weight. Your body is burning fat stores for energy, on top of your intake. I maintain somewhat of a caloric deficit even on Atkins.

See, this is where I find the Atkins lacking. Here is my take.

Regardless, glucose is the preferred energy source for the body. As a matter of fact, your basal metabolic rate must be met by glucose.

On the Atkins (esp. in those first few weeks), the restriction of carbs, the body runs short of glucose. So the body begins to build up its emergency stores of glycogen in the liver and muscles.

For each gram of glycogen, the body must store 3 grams of water.

When the body releases this glycogen, because you are limiting carbs, it must also release those 3 grams of water.

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 01:49 PM

While its a good explanation for theoretical water loss, it still doesnt count for why I can maintain the weight I lose while on Atkins.

And it doesnt specify how MUCH glycogen your body keeps on or off Atkins. Without those metrics, its difficult to determin any water weight loss/gain.

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Mr Evil
While its a good explanation for theoretical water loss, it still doesnt count for why I can maintain the weight I lose while on Atkins.

And it doesnt specify how MUCH glycogen your body keeps on or off Atkins. Without those metrics, its difficult to determin any water weight loss/gain.

It isn't theoretical water loss. It is a proven scientific fact that when your body releases one gram of glycogen, you will also release three grams of water. There isn't anything theoretical about it.

You do alot of cardio a day. I'll guarantee you that if you ingested the same amount of calories you do on the atkins diet in a more balanced fashion, you will lose the same amount of weight.

You do realize the ketosis is commonly seen in starvation, alcoholics and untreated insulin diabetics?

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 02:18 PM

Im not disputing you on the matter of the glycogen release. I used the term theory. Perhaps I should have used a different term.

But scientific fact or not, how much weight is related to water loss? Whats the glycogen in a human? Its relative.

How much weight loss do you attribute to a person who is starving themselves drinking lots of water to Shit Loss? Seriously.
They WILL lose wieght because the poop that was in their colon has now all run its course, probably in a liquid fashion near the end. That poop had a weight to it. How much? I don't know.

But when they get to a certain goal, and start eating again, they WILL regain the Poop Weight back, once their colon has a full que and starts getting regular again. Fact or Theory? Fact. Give it a shot some time and measure the outcome. Metrics is everything.

Don't tell me your one of these Ketosis is dangerous guys? If so, great. Thats your opinion. My opinion ss its not in a controlled environment. Should I feel like im EXTREMELY moody, or with a VERY low blood sugar level, I WILL eat some carbs and with a quickness at that.

And besides, theres so many studies out in this day and age, that ANYONE can say a diet does this and that and back it up with studies out there.

What does matter to me, is what works for ME. If I hadn't tried atkins when I was younger, and lots several pounds from it, and kept it off, I wouldn't be so keen to try it again.

Hell, Crack is a good weight loss supplement. But you wont catch me hitting the rock. I'll stick with Ketosis. You can go run 5 miles a day and eat twinkies. I'll do this for a couple of weeks.

If I die of Ketosis poisoning or heart attack from nutrition based conditions, then you can post up and have a good laugh.

Cooter

06-22-2003, 02:37 PM

like I said, I understand how Atkins works, and I realize that it DOES work, but I contend that much if not all of the 4lbs you've lost is water weight...

now, if you stay in ketosis, you will burn and lose fat obviously, but...

on another note... Shane, have you ever looked at the "TKD" diet everyone raves about on Elite Fitness? I was always wanting to start that, but now the search function is only availble to "platinum" members :rolleyes: so I haven't been on the site in a while...

basicly it's a ketosis cycling diet with a carb-up day to give the muscles energy (glycogen stores) and to keep the body from becoming overly carb sensitive when coming off, and then they use high fat percentage for the next couple days to shock the body back into ketosis.

basicly what I got from the whole discussion was that Atkins is for overweight women in office jobs who don't work out and the TKD is great for cutting fat while still building mass, etc.

I wish I could give more specifics, but like I said, when I found that I was unable to search, I left the site and didn't even dig around at all.

Forrest

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 02:39 PM

Did I say ketosis is dangerous or not? (but it could POSSIBLY lead to a condition known as ketoacidosis, which isn't pretty). I only mentioned what I did, because I find it funny that people looking for weight loss want to put themselves in the same camps as starving alcoholic diabetic.

Ketosis in itself isn't dangerous, but it also isn't necessary. It is not a requirement to burn fat. Calorie deficeit is. But ketosis does help sell books and diet plans.

Ketones can only possibly fuel about 70-75% of your brain/central nervous system's needs for fuel. The rest must come from glucose. In a low-low carb Atkins style diet, guess where the glucose must come from? Your branch chained amino acids. Where do they come from? Protein. From where? lean tissue or dietary intake. But your protein ingested must also be used to rebuild lean tissue, so dietary intake must supply both. Every muscle contraction requires glucose, not just at the gym, but for your heart to pump, your eyes to blink, your fingers to type.

To say your weight loss isn't water, is covering your eyes to the truth. To say you won't lose any lean tissue on this diet is coverting your eyes to the truth.

None of this is opinion, not of it is relative. It is based on specific endocrine processes in your body which are well know and heavily researched and reported.

Cooter

06-22-2003, 02:47 PM

ok, I'm not that hip to all that scientifical mumbo-jumbo ;)

but, I think that's much of what that ketosis cycling diet attempts to avoid/overcome...

a carb-up day or couple days to give the muscles glycogen stores and then shocking back into ketosis to burn fat.

they also cycle their workout types to coincide with the diet... I'm assuming more strenuous resistance training when glycogen is more available and lower impact cardio when in ketosis.

Forrest

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 03:05 PM

Well, perhaps you should write a book then, because it sounds like you know more than the doctors who have written books on the subjects.

Personally, Im not diverting the truth from anything. I gave you straight up facts based on my experience. You telling me the shit didnt happen now?

As far as saying I won't lose any lean tissue, your putting words in my mouth now. Show me where I said that. I didnt. As with ANY diet, there is a risk of losing lean tissue, based on the nutrients being taken in and the energy being exerted.

Even an isocaloric intake, if you dont have ENOUGH protein, and doing lots of resistance training/mass, you risk lean tissue from other muscles that the recovering muscles take protein from.

Forest - yea. I've seen the TKD diet. I actually used it for a few weeks when I went from 263 to 249. I was personally hoping to stay tru to Atkins for a couple of weeks straight and see how much I can lose. Im not sure if Im going to make it much longer, due to not being able to study as well as I do when Im taking in carbs.

And yes, 01WhiteDietGuru, Im quite aware that brain activity is related to glucose intake, no need to remind me.

btw forest, Im in the same boat as you're in at Elite. I didnt go there for 3 weeks, then got an email stating that if I'd like to keep my current name/postcount/etc I need to upgrade to a platinum acct. They lost me at that point. Sheer greed to pull some shit like that. With as many good forums that are out there now, no need for Elite any more really. Most of the good guys left and started their own.

www.gotfina.com , www.massmonsters.com (I think). Couple of others out there.

Thanks for the debate 01whitecobra. It still boils down to preference, no matter what data either of us presents for debate. I hate atkins, but I like the results. I like TKD, but thought Atkins on 2 weeks straight my bring better results. Crack works for people that enjoy it and Alcohol works for others, regardless of the inherent risks involved with any of the above diets.

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Mr Evil
Well, perhaps you should write a book then, because it sounds like you know more than the doctors who have written books on the subjects.

Personally, Im not diverting the truth from anything. I gave you straight up facts based on my experience. You telling me the shit didnt happen now?
diets.

Whatever. Works for you, fine. If you think you lost those 7lbs in a week and there wasn't a mix of water and lean tissue in there, great.

Gee, switching from a high carb/high calorie diet to a high protein/low calorie will make you lose weight.

My book on diet would be too small to sell and since you wouldn't need to buy any special meal plans, or have to read a book to discover what to eat, at what time and in what quantities I probably wouldn't find a publisher.

The magic formula is.... drum roll please... increase exercise and reduce calories.

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra

The magic formula is.... drum roll please... increase exercise and reduce calories.

You are a fucking genius. Seriously.

Where did you get this from? Because, had you ever read thru any of my previous posts, you'd probably discover i never knew that. :rolleyes:

White_lightning

06-22-2003, 04:41 PM

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Mr Evil
You are a fucking genius. Seriously.

Where did you get this from? Because, had you ever read thru any of my previous posts, you'd probably discover i never knew that. :rolleyes:

Thanks.

Obviously, if you think running the Atkins Diet and you are not losing water and muscle weight, you can't be a fucking genius.

Seriously.

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Thanks.

Obviously, if you think running the Atkins Diet and you are not losing water and muscle weight, you can't be a fucking genius.

Seriously.

Really? Please explain the catabolic nature of the Atkins diet please. Because quite frankly, I don't see it. And I don't think you can prove it.

On top of the hi-protein/hi-fat diet, I also take ECA. ECA has been proven time and time again to be anti-catabolic itself. So no, Im not losing any muscle weight.

Just fat, and whatever amount of water weight the spent glycogen.

White_lightning

06-22-2003, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Mr Evil
Really? Please explain the catabolic nature of the Atkins diet please. Because quite frankly, I don't see it. And I don't think you can prove it.

On top of the hi-protein/hi-fat diet, I also take ECA. ECA has been proven time and time again to be anti-catabolic itself. So no, Im not losing any muscle weight.

Just fat, and whatever amount of water weight the spent glycogen.

damn.. if 01white cobra is right.. i must be some genetic freak.. i am Soldily in ketosis.. im getting stronger too.. a few years ago i did atkins for 3 months.. and got noticably bigger and stronger.. man.. i hope my body doesnt realise that i'm meant to be LOSING muscle on atkins..
!!

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 08:32 PM

Orginally posted by Mr Evil
Really? Please explain the catabolic nature of the Atkins diet please. Because quite frankly, I don't see it. And I don't think you can prove it.

On top of the hi-protein/hi-fat diet, I also take ECA. ECA has been proven time and time again to be anti-catabolic itself. So no, Im not losing any muscle weight.

Just fat, and whatever amount of water weight the spent glycogen.

Originally posted by White_lightning
damn.. if 01white cobra is right.. i must be some genetic freak.. i am Soldily in ketosis.. im getting stronger too.. a few years ago i did atkins for 3 months.. and got noticably bigger and stronger.. man.. i hope my body doesnt realise that i'm meant to be LOSING muscle on atkins..
!!

ANY diet in which your energy requirements are not met by your calorie consumption will result in the loss of some lean tissue. To make any statement to the contrary is pure stupidy. I least now I have Mr Evil at least admitting water loss as well.

White_Lightning, you've been on the freakin' diet for what, 6 days now? Whoop dee freakin' do. Come back in a month and lets see how you are doing.

White_lightning

06-22-2003, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
ANY diet in which your energy requirements are not met by your calorie consumption will result in the loss of some lean tissue. To make any statement to the contrary is pure stupidy. I least now I have Mr Evil at least admitting water loss as well.

White_Lightning, you've been on the freakin' diet for what, 6 days now? Whoop dee freakin' do. Come back in a month and lets see how you are doing.

i guess reading skills are past you?? i said LAST TIME i was on atkins.. i was on it for 3 months.. droped 20lbs.. and put on increased weight in EVERY single excercise.

sorry if i confused you o great fountain of knowlege.

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by White_lightning
i guess reading skills are past you?? i said LAST TIME i was on atkins.. i was on it for 3 months.. droped 20lbs.. and put on increased weight in EVERY single excercise.

sorry if i confused you o great fountain of knowlege.

I don't give a shit if you believe it or not. Call up a registered dietician, called up someone who has done research into the subject.

If you take in less calories than you burn, you will lose lean mass. Regardless of the diet you are on.

Increasing strength means you are recruiting more muscle fiber into each exercise. It does not mean you are recruiting ALL muscle fiber into an exercise. Thus, yes, you can lose lean mass and still have gains in strength.

Even Atkins himself, before he died, admitted you will lose water and lean mass following his program.

Mr Evil

06-22-2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
If you take in less calories than you burn, you will lose lean mass. Regardless of the diet you are on.

If you really believe this, why the hell are you making it out like Atkins is so evil and eats muscle, when you actually think its true for ALL diets? What if someone isnt in a caloric deficit? Atkins doesnt actually promote caloric deficiecy. Just that you try to do 30 mins of cardio 3 times per week and eat all you want on the diet.

However, I dont agree with you on this particular matter. Thats what Fat Stores are used for. Even truer when taking an ECA.

Your body eats lean muscle mass when your not getting enough protein to maintain the mass you have. If Im meeting those requirements in a diet (1.5 g of protein / pound of body weight, which is more than enough) and getting very close to my metabolic caloric intake, it will feed from fat stores for the extra energy needed. Otherwise, no one would ever lose fat. We'd all get to be fat blobs rolling around on skateboards instead of a skeletal muscular type movement.

Your argument here isn't holding water. Im taking your word on the glycocen and water story. I'll research it when I feel its something I really need to deal with.

White_lightning

06-22-2003, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
I don't give a shit if you believe it or not. Call up a registered dietician, called up someone who has done research into the subject.

If you take in less calories than you burn, you will lose lean mass. Regardless of the diet you are on.

Increasing strength means you are recruiting more muscle fiber into each exercise. It does not mean you are recruiting ALL muscle fiber into an exercise. Thus, yes, you can lose lean mass and still have gains in strength.

Even Atkins himself, before he died, admitted you will lose water and lean mass following his program.

BHAHAHAHA
damn.. your a fuckin genious!!! i have GAINED muscle mass on a 1500 a day calorie diet.. but with HUGE amounts of protien..
on atkins.. im taking in MORE then enough calories..
lol
damn.. i guess while i was Losing weight.. gaining strengh.. i must have been LOSING Musclemass.. even though i put an inch on my chest.. 1/2 on my arms. and 2 on my quads.. while dropping 20lbs
BHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
silly me.. my body must be confused.

01WhiteCobra

06-22-2003, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by White_lightning
BHAHAHAHA
damn.. your a fuckin genious!!! i have GAINED muscle mass on a 1500 a day calorie diet.. but with HUGE amounts of protien..
on atkins.. im taking in MORE then enough calories..
lol
damn.. i guess while i was Losing weight.. gaining strengh.. i must have been LOSING Musclemass.. even though i put an inch on my chest.. 1/2 on my arms. and 2 on my quads.. while dropping 20lbs
BHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
silly me.. my body must be confused.

Yea, ok.

So I suppose you have the BF analysis to prove that?

Gained on 1500 calories day. Now, that is a big, huge, BHHHHAAAAHHHHAAA.

1500 calories a day isn't enough to fire your brain and nervous system. Oh, maybe that is why you make no sense.

Cooter

06-23-2003, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by White_lightning
BHAHAHAHA
damn.. your a fuckin genious!!! i have GAINED muscle mass on a 1500 a day calorie diet.. but with HUGE amounts of protien..
on atkins.. im taking in MORE then enough calories..
lol
damn.. i guess while i was Losing weight.. gaining strengh.. i must have been LOSING Musclemass.. even though i put an inch on my chest.. 1/2 on my arms. and 2 on my quads.. while dropping 20lbs
BHAHAHAAHAHAHAH
silly me.. my body must be confused.

was this right when you got back in the gym? because I look a lot bigger my 2nd week back after a long hiatus when my muscles are all full...

just sayin' is all...

Forrest

White_lightning

06-23-2003, 12:20 AM

it was 4 months back in.

White_lightning

06-23-2003, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Yea, ok.

So I suppose you have the BF analysis to prove that?

Gained on 1500 calories day. Now, that is a big, huge, BHHHHAAAAHHHHAAA.

1500 calories a day isn't enough to fire your brain and nervous system. Oh, maybe that is why you make no sense.

lol
i went 2 months on a 1400 carb a day diet.. well. i lost weight .. i got stronger.. and well.. my nervous system and brain had no problems.. maybe you need to get a clue before you spew out your crap here.. you are talking crap.. im talking Been there.. dont that..

01WhiteCobra

06-23-2003, 07:31 AM

White_lightning

06-23-2003, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Ok, white_lightning, whatever.

Right a book, become a bodybuilder guru. You will make millions within a year.

I'm sure every bodybuilder in the world would love your formula for muscle growth on 1500 calories a day. Oops, its 1400 calories now. Hell they'd never have to cycle again. Powerlifters could be stronger and never have to worry about making weight again!

:rolleyes:
lol. i will write mine.. as soon as you write yours.. you can title it.. " my words of wisdom based on ZERO experience"

The Raven

06-23-2003, 10:12 AM

It's great that you can gain on 1500 calories David, I've seen it with my own eyes and am jealous as hell, but don't discount what he is saying. Your experiences in the gym don't follow what most people will and can experience. There are very few guys that can gain like that without liquid help.

01WhiteCobra

06-23-2003, 10:23 AM

QUOTE]Originally posted by White_lightning
lol. i will write mine.. as soon as you write yours.. you can title it.. " my words of wisdom based on ZERO experience" [/QUOTE]

I'm serious, WL, you need to this the show on the road. I'm not making light of you. Do you know how many Olympic lifters and powerlifters would love to make weight and be able to follow a diet based on 1500 calories a day and still increase their 1RM?

You'd make hella money.

Mr. Evil, in another thread, you said you cycle a diet of low/no carb for 7 days and then carb up. This is not Atkins. You are following more of a cyclical ketogenic diet, where you low carb it for 5-7 days, then replenish your glycogen stores.

This method is akin to "carb loading" that endurance athletes have been using for years. You totally deplete all glycogen stores in your muscle, then spend 1-2 days "carbing up". The net result will be your muscle can hold more glycogen then it did. As such, you *should* have more glycogen available for your race day.

White_lightning

06-23-2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Got Boost?
It's great that you can gain on 1500 calories David, I've seen it with my own eyes and am jealous as hell, but don't discount what he is saying. Your experiences in the gym don't follow what most people will and can experience. There are very few guys that can gain like that without liquid help.

i agree with you 100% Aaron.. but I refuse to take it that im a "genetic freak" or " one of a kind" if i can do it.. others of can .. the problem is.. LOTS of people arent willing to work hard.. they arent willing to try and test.. hell. before my wedding i was avearging 1200 callories a DAY for 2 months. and you saw i wasnt losing strength or size.. im willing to try and test out theories .. White cobra seems to be trying to preach that what i said is 100% impossible and that i am lying.. well.. im not.. i have witnesses to PROVE im not..

anyway.. i dont apreciate being called a lier which is basicaly what whitecobra is saying.. i get in the gym and BUST my ass.. and then have BS called on me by some dude who takes everything at face value and isnt willing to try stuff?? oh well...

oh yeah;) you have PM

White_lightning

06-23-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
QUOTE]Originally posted by White_lightning
lol. i will write mine.. as soon as you write yours.. you can title it.. " my words of wisdom based on ZERO experience"

I'm serious, WL, you need to this the show on the road. I'm not making light of you. Do you know how many Olympic lifters and powerlifters would love to make weight and be able to follow a diet based on 1500 calories a day and still increase their 1RM?

You'd make hella money.

Mr. Evil, in another thread, you said you cycle a diet of low/no carb for 7 days and then carb up. This is not Atkins. You are following more of a cyclical ketogenic diet, where you low carb it for 5-7 days, then replenish your glycogen stores.

This method is akin to "carb loading" that endurance athletes have been using for years. You totally deplete all glycogen stores in your muscle, then spend 1-2 days "carbing up". The net result will be your muscle can hold more glycogen then it did. As such, you *should* have more glycogen available for your race day. [/QUOTE]

the atkins /carb loading diet is pretty well described in the Body Opus book.

AbecX

06-23-2003, 10:26 AM

Very good read, well, besides the cock battles going on :cool:

AL P

06-23-2003, 10:53 AM

You'll lose mass on any calorie deficit diet, doesn't matter the type.

The thing with Atkins is that you rely on protein and fat intake. The protein helps keep your lean mass, the fat is for energy.

Since the 50s every bodybuilder, powerlifter, strength athlete has known, when dieting, eat more protein!! Its that simple. Why it works...who knows....who cares.

I still think you will lose some mass no matter what, you have to lose some when dropping weight.

I always drank plenty of water on the atkins diet, ate plenty of high quality protein and ran my ass off. When I felt a little depleted because of low blood sugar I just ate something with a little bit of carbs in it and a lot of fat. I figure next time I'm going to throw some creatine in the mix and see what happens...I might turn into the hulk!!!

Let the bigger dick contest resume!!!

AL P

06-23-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by White_lightning
lol
i went 2 months on a 1400 carb a day diet.. well. i lost weight .. i got stronger.. and well.. my nervous system and brain had no problems.. maybe you need to get a clue before you spew out your crap here.. you are talking crap.. im talking Been there.. dont that..

Ten years ago...about 1990, 1991 I was training to lift in powerlifting meets. I started off at 230 lbs...the most I have ever weighed!! I dieted for 4 months, took in about 1400 to 1500 calories a day along with a bit of extra protein, not a lot. I ate "normal" on the weekends though. Not a lot of junk or anything, just whatever I wanted.

Did absolutely NO cardio at all.

At the end of four months I weighed in at 175 lbs. I gained strength in all of my lifts, was squatting about 350 lbs. or so. Twice your body weight isn't TOO awful anyway...

I never took any measurements but I am sure I picked up some muscle tone, probably not a lot of mass. My strength was good though.

Anyway, that is just my $.02. You can survive on that many calories a day. I don't think I gained mass but I used the mass I had more efficiently and got stronger while dropping a ton of weight.

I'm not trying to support or not support any of you guy's opinions, I'm just telling what worked for me.

Mr Evil

06-23-2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
QUOTE]Originally posted by White_lightning
lol. i will write mine.. as soon as you write yours.. you can title it.. " my words of wisdom based on ZERO experience"

Mr. Evil, in another thread, you said you cycle a diet of low/no carb for 7 days and then carb up. This is not Atkins. You are following more of a cyclical ketogenic diet, where you low carb it for 5-7 days, then replenish your glycogen stores.

This method is akin to "carb loading" that endurance athletes have been using for years. You totally deplete all glycogen stores in your muscle, then spend 1-2 days "carbing up". The net result will be your muscle can hold more glycogen then it did. As such, you *should* have more glycogen available for your race day. [/QUOTE]

Thats correct. But, I was on route to do Atkins method this time around. But alas, all of the arguing/debating made me hunger. And damn if I didnt put down a full box of Lucky charms, 4 ice cream cones, a Heath bar, and a Red Bull. Damn it was a good day!

Ima carb up today to propa like. Some DP, donuts, and some other shit. Tomorrow, back to the grind.

Mr Evil

06-23-2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by AL P
I'm just telling what worked for me.

Thats exactly what it really boils down to.

"what worked for me"

I dont care if you ate dog shit and drank cat piss for 6 months and gained 50 pounds of muscle and lost 50 pounds of fat. It worked for you, great. But I sure the hell aint eating dog shit or drinking cat piss.

What worked for you MAY NOT work for someone else. Somebody else may not like your diet. Let them figure it out. I know what works for me, although I realize that there is probably a much more efficient way.

AL P

06-23-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Mr Evil

I dont care if you ate dog shit and drank cat piss for 6 months and gained 50 pounds of muscle and lost 50 pounds of fat. It worked for you, great. But I sure the hell aint eating dog shit or drinking cat piss.

Don't make me sue you for revealing my new diet idea, my book doesn't come out until next month!!!

AL P

06-23-2003, 11:29 AM

BTW I went to meet our equity partner at the Ranger's game the other night and I ate:

Cheese
Pineapple
Hot Dog
BBQ sandwich
A tamale
Some chicken tenders
Two Coronas
Chocolate Chip cookie
Chocolate Chocolate chip cookie
Oatmeal cookie
Brownie
Ice Cream cone

GET SOME!!!!

The Big Matt

06-23-2003, 12:24 PM

I speak from true experience here.

65 pounds total weight loss, and kept it off, only using the Atkins diet. Nothing else. Not even excercise.

I'm getting ready to add back in some excercise, as I'd only like to lose another 30 or so pounds. 6'4, 235 is a pretty good place to be.

Keep the debate on, but don't knock something that you don't know about it. I can read books all day about flying a plane, that doesn't mean when it came down to it, I could actually do it.

01WhiteCobra

06-23-2003, 01:02 PM

Most people that have success on the Atkins Diet do so because your diet was so bad before it that moving to the Atkins Diet is going to look like magic. It isn't because the Atkins Diet is so good, it is their previous diet is so bad.

Both Duchaine and McDonald have stated that the Atkins diet have both stated that not too long after starting an Atkins style diet, you won't have enough muscle glycogen to fuel a strong workout. Duchaine wrote "Body Opus", McDonald, I can't remember the title of his book and I'm too lazy to go to the boxes in the garage to find it.

But, both authors, which I think anyone will agree are quite knowledgable on optimum nutrition for bodybuilders both have some type of carb loading in their regimes (like Dr Evil is doing).

The original point of contention was that everything you lose on the Atkins diet is fat loss. Dr Atkins, before his death, has stated that this is not the case of his diet.

But, for shits and grins, lets look at a 280lb, 25% BF person who works out hard and lives on a ketosis type diet of 1400 calories....

Most people agree, to get into a state of ketosis, you will require 1.5 grams - 2 grams of fat per gram of protein.

This person, in convetional bodybuilding wisdom would require a gram of protein per pound of lean mass to maintain their lean mass. But for arguments sake, lets say this person only requires 150 grams.

150 grams of protein = 600 calories

This leaves 800 calories for fat (for now, the assumption is there are 0 grams of carbohydrates in the diet). Less than 100 grams and less than the recommended 1.5 grams to 2 grams of fat per gram of protein.

So what would the ratio be on a 1400 calorie diet? Using the low figure of 1.5 grams of fat to 1 gram of protein, we would need to ingest 80 grams of protein and 120 grams of fat.

So, why is dietary fat so important? Because it is the most ketogenic of the three macro groups. The body is the least efficient at converting glucose from dietary fat. Its a very small percentage. Protein is the next, where about 50-60% is converted to glucose (I think this figure is correct, not 100% sure). The carb is last, where the body is 100% efficient in the conversion.

So, yes, if male can make gains in lean mass, or even maintain lean mass on a 1400 calorie diet with only 80 grams of protein (this ratio is require to maintain ketosis), then this person is, as Got Boost said, probably a freak of nature.

01WhiteCobra

06-23-2003, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Silverback
I speak from true experience here.

65 pounds total weight loss, and kept it off, only using the Atkins diet. Nothing else. Not even excercise.

I'm getting ready to add back in some excercise, as I'd only like to lose another 30 or so pounds. 6'4, 235 is a pretty good place to be.

Keep the debate on, but don't knock something that you don't know about it. I can read books all day about flying a plane, that doesn't mean when it came down to it, I could actually do it.

Do you know what the percentage of your weight loss was lean mass? That was what the original argument was. Do you lose water and lean mass on the Atkins diet.

Cooter

06-23-2003, 02:12 PM

Duchaine = god when it comes to body science

Mr Evil

06-23-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
then this person is, as Got Boost said, probably a freak of nature.

Apparently, you've never met Feldmonster in person. Or watched 315 pounds slip from his hands, bounce on his chest, and him push it for another 11 reps before bitching about the equipment.

The Big Matt

06-23-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Do you know what the percentage of your weight loss was lean mass? That was what the original argument was. Do you lose water and lean mass on the Atkins diet.

I couldn't tell you what percentage was lean mass. Can you tell me what percentage of lean mass you have gained? no.

you definately lose some water weight in the first day or two. But nothing too excessive, or you'd immediately gain that weight back when you got off the diet. correct?

01WhiteCobra

06-23-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Silverback
I couldn't tell you what percentage was lean mass. Can you tell me what percentage of lean mass you have gained? no.

you definately lose some water weight in the first day or two. But nothing too excessive, or you'd immediately gain that weight back when you got off the diet. correct?

Yes, you do lose water weight. Once you get off the diet and you will gain the water weight. You will also lose lean mass. Any diet in which you have a deficiency in calories will do this.

As far as your other statement. Yes, I can tell you what lean mass I gained or loss during any change in diet, workouts. Anytime I make a significant change I will get calipered.

Most recently I was calipered before the hp Houston Marathon (January) and last month, mid-May. Since January, I have gained 17.1lbs lean mass and 2 lbs fat. The reason I calipered was because I don't care to PR anymore and want a more balanced lifestyle, which included more weight training, less cardio.

I calipered last month because I want to push 200lbs (around 183-185 now) and keep my BF% below 10%, preferrably around 9%. I'll get calipered again at the end of August to see if the adjustments to my diet (increased calories, increased protein) and the adjustments to my workouts have done.

Back my 20s, when I was serious about triathlons, every season I would get calipered or dunked at the Coopers Clinic along with a VO2Max test before the season and after the season. I also kept highly detailed records of my workouts, including pulse rate, max pulse, min pulse, miles on my shoes, etc., etc. Since I'm not competitive anymore (my choice), I figured a yearly VO2Max test wasn't called for.

But, I've never taken this exercise or diet shit seriously.

AbecX

06-23-2003, 06:01 PM

My family has a history of heart problems, anything I should read up on that will help me out with atkins and heart conditions? I dont plan on doing it for months, just a couple of weeks.

Cooter

06-23-2003, 06:35 PM

Atkins isn't necessarily reduced calorie though is it?

Cruz,

just do it, you're a pretty healthy young guy. you could probably eat amphetamine bisquits for two weeks and not damage your heart. just eat clean meats and fats (flax seed oil is your friend) if you're worried about your heart (as opposed to fatty beef and pork and doing shots of bacon grease :D )

Forrest

White_lightning

06-23-2003, 07:20 PM

Actualy.. i knowa bout a dozen people who have LOWER cholesterol levels on atikins then on a "good diet"...

The Big Matt

06-23-2003, 07:30 PM

Feldman, I'd be one...

Also, I have more energy on the atkins diet, than I've had on numerous other styles of diets.

On a side note, I just tried a Smore's Atkins Advatage bar, and they are AWESOME...

220 Calories
90 Fat Calories
10g Fat
5g Saturated
0g Cholesterol
130mg Sodium
190 mg Potassium
26g Total Carbs - Fiber 11g, Sugars 0g, and Sugar Alcohol 4g
Making 3g Net Carbs
Protein 17g

I'm gonna use these for an added meal supplement between breakfast and lunch, and between lunch and dinner.

blk93cpe

06-23-2003, 07:50 PM

I hate the Atkins diet!! I lost 15 pounds last year on it but felt like shit and I lost a lot of strength in the gym and I always felt tired.

I did the best on weight watchers were I lost 30lbs in 40 days and kept it off for 5 months. But when I got back from our vacation to playa del carmen, I start my bad habits back up and gained the weight back.

I started weight watchers again this past week and I am going to try and stick with it. I want to be 6'2 at 220 by august.

01WhiteCobra

06-23-2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by White_lightning
Actualy.. i knowa bout a dozen people who have LOWER cholesterol levels on atikins then on a "good diet"...

It was one of those weird benefits that everyone was "astonished" at with the Atkins diet.

White_lightning

06-23-2003, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by blk93cpe
I hate the Atkins diet!! I lost 15 pounds last year on it but felt like shit and I lost a lot of strength in the gym and I always felt tired.

I did the best on weight watchers were I lost 30lbs in 40 days and kept it off for 5 months. But when I got back from our vacation to playa del carmen, I start my bad habits back up and gained the weight back.

I started weight watchers again this past week and I am going to try and stick with it. I want to be 6'2 at 220 by august.

weird.. both this and the last time i was on atkins i felt stronger.. mainly because i was taking in ALOT more protein.. Also.. its proven that the body functions more efficiently when there are almost zero carbs and alot of ketons in the blood then when there are large amounts of carbs in the blood.